Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
then why are (e.g.) you engrossed in politics? On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:20:17 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..Constantine started a bastardized hybrid that is full of mixture and that calls itself the church..
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Judy is 'gonzo'. I'm sorry that she 'abdicated'. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 04, 2004 11:55 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence then why are (e.g.) you engrossed in politics? On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:20:17 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..Constantine started a bastardized hybrid that is full of mixture and that calls itself the church..
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
In a message dated 7/4/2004 9:42:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy is 'gonzo'. I'm sorry that she 'abdicated'. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Me to and likewise. I read or study perhaps 5 hours a day and work 10 to 14 . All or most of my extra time is spent in some aspect of the Word -- and JudyT actually is aware and/or knows something about so much than I that it is startling to me. With me its like a friend of my mine used to say as he wrapped his arm around my shoulder, " I've taught him everything I know and he is still stupid." Not that she is right all the time but , her knowledge is interestingly hugh and she is missed by me as well. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/4/2004 9:42:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy is 'gonzo'. I'm sorry that she 'abdicated'. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Me to and likewise. I read or study perhaps 5 hours a day and work 10 to 14 . All or most of my extra time is spent in some aspect of the Word -- and JudyT actually is aware and/or knows something about so much than I that it is startling to me. With me its like a friend of my mine used to say as he wrapped his arm around my shoulder, " I've taught him everything I know and he is still stupid." Not that she is right all the time but , her knowledge is interestingly hugh and she is missed by me as well. John Right now Judy is taking care of two grand daughters while Jenna and her parents are tied up at the hospital for chemo treatments. Grand children are a joy, but they are also a burden if you have grown accustomed to a peaceful, quiet home and suddenly have a couple move in with you. You can be praying for her and for Jenna if you like, and if you want to encourage her, her e-mail is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Lance, Could you elaborate on this statement? Which groups? I, for example, hate the RCC. But I love Catholics (such as my own family members, friends, and public people that I know.) Have you ever been to America? Are all religious groups in Canada schmoozing and singing, We are the World? I think youve been reading too much TruthTalk! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Judyt:Amen on the 'hatred' observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in practice, between believing groups in America. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 17:03 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence From: Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] jt: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill jt: This would undoubtedly depend on how one defines the word Christian - which definition in the case of Germany of the 1930's could never have included the fruit of the Spirit; the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which hated the Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is hatred of evil judyt From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the war on Terror a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 23:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Izzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:46 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 23:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Izzy:God does not "hate" the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al "hate" the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Lance, Could you elaborate on this statement? Which groups? I, for example, hate the RCC. But I love Catholics (such as my own family members, friends, and public people that I know.) Have you ever been to America? Are all religious groups in Canada schmoozing and singing, We are the World? I think youve been reading too much TruthTalk! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:48 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Judyt:Amen on the 'hatred' observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in practice, between believing groups in America. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 17:03 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]jt: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill jt: This would undoubtedly depend on how one defines the word "Christian" - which definition in the case of Germany of the 1930's could never have included the "fruit of the Spirit"; the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which "hated" the Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is "hatred of evil" judyt From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large?The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt[EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option.From: Judy Taylor Terry writes:Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages.There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace,Judy
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
You're wrong on this one Lance, God does "hate" some
things and Nicolaitan type religious systems
are one of them (see Rev 2:6,15). The RCC is such
a system and like Izzy I love Catholic people but hate the
system because it keepssouls in bondage to it's
false tenets.
From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Izzy: God does not "hate" the RCC so why then
should you, Judy et al "hate" the RCC??
PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?,
the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see
it.
From: ShieldsFamily
Lance,
Could you elaborate on this statement? Which groups? I, for example, hate
the RCC. But I love Catholics (such as my own family members, friends, and
public people that I know.) Have
you ever been to America? Are all religious groups
in Canada schmoozing and singing, We
are the World? I think youve been reading too much TruthTalk! J
Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lance
MuirJudyt:Amen on the 'hatred'
observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in
practice, between believing groups in America.
From: Judy
Taylor
jt: The devil ... has on occasion
controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews
pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives.
From: "Wm. Taylor"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]I wonder how
many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in
Germany would have taken Paul's
words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said
to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world,"
he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot
of lives." Bill
jt: This would undoubtedly depend on
how one defines the word "Christian" - which definition in the case of
Germany of the 1930's could never have included the "fruit of the Spirit";
the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which "hated" the
Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is "hatred of evil"
judyt
From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Christians
and Violence
It's not a viable option in the spiritual
warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at
large?The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him
to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of
authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to
him cost them a lot of lives. jt[EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy:Pacifissism
is a viable option.From: Judy Taylor Terry writes:Still, the
real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the
Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and
kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we
love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference
if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to
please God and men? Terry
jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily
which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our
whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians
in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly
behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone
to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we
are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend
us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who
do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still
rages.There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot
and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have
been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been
sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in
progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His
ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a
true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a
decent leader defends his people.
Grace and
Peace,Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:41:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:God does not "hate" the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al "hate" the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it. And the obvious question is, what happens to the notion that God hates sin but not the sinner.? JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
What happens indeed?? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 09:19 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:41:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:God does not "hate" the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al "hate" the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it.And the obvious question is, what happens to the notion that God hates sin but not the sinner.? JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
What does THAT mean Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 23:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
The RCC is a false Religious System (not the people in it). Some of the people in it are liars. Some are just indoctrinated dupes struggling as best they can to grow in truth in spite of the errors they have been taught, just as we are. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:God does not hate the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al hate the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Lance, Could you elaborate on this statement? Which groups? I, for example, hate the RCC. But I love Catholics (such as my own family members, friends, and public people that I know.) Have you ever been to America? Are all religious groups in Canada schmoozing and singing, We are the World? I think youve been reading too much TruthTalk! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Judyt:Amen on the 'hatred' observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in practice, between believing groups in America. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 17:03 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence From: Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] jt: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill jt: This would undoubtedly depend on how one defines the word Christian - which definition in the case of Germany of the 1930's could never have included the fruit of the Spirit; the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which hated the Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is hatred of evil judyt From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the war on Terror a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Izzy:'liars', 'indoctrinated dupes',
'error':JUST AS WE ARE!!If you're including us then, I
agree.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 29, 2004 10:19
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and
Violence
The
RCC is a false Religious System (not
the people in it). Some of the
people in it are liars. Some are
just indoctrinated dupes struggling as best they can to grow in truth in spite
of the errors they have been taught, just as we are. Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:38
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and
Violence
Izzy:God does not "hate" the RCC
so why then should you, Judy et al "hate" the
RCC??
PS:How does one separate the Lie
from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God
doesn't, as I see it.
- Original Message -
From: ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June
29, 2004 07:18
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Lance,
Could you elaborate on this statement? Which groups? I, for example, hate
the RCC. But I love Catholics (such as my own family members, friends, and
public people that I know.)
Have you ever been to America? Are all religious groups
in Canada schmoozing and singing,
We are the World? I think youve been reading too much TruthTalk!
J
Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lance
MuirSent: Monday, June 28,
2004 3:48 AMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and
Violence
Judyt:Amen on the 'hatred'
observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in
practice, between believing groups in America.
- Original Message -
From: Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June
27, 2004 17:03
Subject:
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]jt: The devil ... has on
occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example
and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of
lives.
I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have
cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's
words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul
said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the
world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the
Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
jt: This would undoubtedly depend
on how one defines the word "Christian" - which definition in the case of
Germany of the 1930's could never have included the "fruit of the Spirit";
the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which "hated" the
Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of
God which is "hatred
of evil" judyt
From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AMSubject: [TruthTalk]
Christians and Violence
It's not a viable option in the spiritual
warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world
at large?The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for
him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of
authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to
him cost them a lot of lives. jt[EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy:Pacifissism
is a viable option.From: Judy Taylor Terry writes:Still, the
real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the
Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and
kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we
love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference
if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to
please God and men? Terry
jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it
daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually
purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many,
many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the
example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return.
If our co
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
John, God does hate the sinner with the sin. He also loves him enough to die for him to offer him a way out of His wrath. Divine paradox. Izzy Hosea 9:15 All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:41:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:God does not hate the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al hate the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it. And the obvious question is, what happens to the notion that God hates sin but not the sinner.? JD
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
They do and what they mean depend on WHOsays them - Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 yet Lance? Do you believe it is based on what is good and true and lovely and of good report? judyt From: "Lance Muir" Izzy:words 'mean' things. From: ShieldsFamily What does THAT mean Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. From: ShieldsFamily Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judyt:No, they don't. They refer away from themselves to reality. That's what they MEAN. A 'chair' is that thing upon which you sit. Men's/women's wc, walk/don't walk etc. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 10:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence They do and what they mean depend on WHOsays them - Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 yet Lance? Do you believe it is based on what is good and true and lovely and of good report? judyt From: "Lance Muir" Izzy:words 'mean' things. From: ShieldsFamily What does THAT mean Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. From: ShieldsFamily Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
I thought we had advanced from "Can Sally run" and were into discussing spiritual issues where some people's words carry an anointing fromthe Holy Spirit,others have an anointing from the other spirit and some just fall to the ground. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judyt: No, they don't. They refer away from themselves to reality. That's what they MEAN. A 'chair' is that thing upon which you sit. Men's/women's wc, walk/don't walk etc. From: Judy Taylor They do and what they mean depend on WHOsays them - Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 yet Lance? Do you believe it is based on what is good and true and lovely and of good report? judyt From: "Lance Muir" Izzy:words 'mean' things. From: ShieldsFamily What does THAT mean Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy: There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. From: ShieldsFamily Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Understandable since you, Chris, Jonathan, and Bill are of one heart and one mind inmany areas, the ad hominem being one . It becomes impossible to discuss for very long without insults and accusations - Is this the wisdom that comes from above? From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:I occasionally get the impression that you haven't. Thus. From: Judy Taylor I thought we had advanced from "Can Sally run" and were into discussing spiritual issues where some people's words carry an anointing fromthe Holy Spirit,others have an anointing from the other spirit and some just fall to the ground. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judyt: No, they don't. They refer away from themselves to reality. That's what they MEAN. A 'chair' is that thing upon which you sit. Men's/women's wc, walk/don't walk etc. From: Judy Taylor They do and what they mean depend on WHOsays them - Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 yet Lance? Do you believe it is based on what is good and true and lovely and of good report? judyt From: "Lance Muir" Izzy:words 'mean' things. From: ShieldsFamily What does THAT mean Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy: There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. From: ShieldsFamily Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy:Actually, it is. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 13:21 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Understandable since you, Chris, Jonathan, and Bill are of one heart and one mind inmany areas, the ad hominem being one . It becomes impossible to discuss for very long without insults and accusations - Is this the wisdom that comes from above? [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:I occasionally get the impression that you haven't. Thus. From: Judy Taylor I thought we had advanced from "Can Sally run" and were into discussing spiritual issues where some people's words carry an anointing fromthe Holy Spirit,others have an anointing from the other spirit and some just fall to the ground. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judyt: No, they don't. They refer away from themselves to reality. That's what they MEAN. A 'chair' is that thing upon which you sit. Men's/women's wc, walk/don't walk etc. From: Judy Taylor They do and what they mean depend on WHOsays them - Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 yet Lance? Do you believe it is based on what is good and true and lovely and of good report? judyt From: "Lance Muir" Izzy:words 'mean' things. From: ShieldsFamily What does THAT mean Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy: There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. From: ShieldsFamily Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: Lance MuirIzzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Your sense of humor is great. I was kind of hoping for an answer and you were able to cast my question in light of some kind of phiilosophical musing about forgotten truth. Maybe I am the only one laughing, but it is funny. And I am not be sarcastic here. JD In a message dated 6/29/2004 6:48:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What happens indeed?? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 09:19 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:41:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:God does not "hate" the RCC so why then should you, Judy et al "hate" the RCC?? PS:How does one separate the Lie from the Liar?, the whatever from the whatever?? I don't, you don't God doesn't, as I see it. And the obvious question is, what happens to the notion that God hates sin but not the sinner.? JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Apparently not yours? Why cant you explain WHAT YOUR WORDS MEAN? Dont go weird(er) on us, Lance! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:words 'mean' things. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 10:17 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence What does THAT mean Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation. It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful. Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 23:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Let me take a shot at this and a few other things Lance has said on the same topic. If I am wrong I am sure Lance will correct me. I am in the process of working this stuff out. My post will not be as tight as I would like it to be and may have a lot of holes to fill in (if not outright errors). This can take a bit to work out so feel free to ask lots of questions based upon this short reply. There are two things Lance is doing in his brief responses: 1) To illustrate that all principles that we call moral and Christian are a result of our environment. In other words they are not part of a moral natural law view. The reason you do not murder is not because it is a law written on our hearts but rather that it is socially unacceptable to do so. 2) The next point is that moralism in all its forms is not to be equated with Christianity or its Holy Book the Bible. Moralism is an individuals attempt to get right with God without God. One can be completely moral and have no relationship with Jesus Christ. How this works from a reading the Bible perspective will follow below. Lance has done a lot of thinking on the conscience. We believe that all behaviours are not a result of Christian morals but rather because they are socially acceptable. In the nature versus nurture debate we side on nurture. Lets begin in the garden (thanks goes to Bruce Wachope for supplying the initial fodder for what is about to be discussed). What did Adam and Eve lack? A knowledge of good and evil. It was this tree that they ate from that supplied them this. A conscience = a knowledge of good and evil. Now that the conscience was in place man began to think from this conscience, to view everything from the consciences leadings. What was the first thing man did after the Fall? What is the first thing we all do once we have done something wrong? They hid. They now painted Gods face from within the viewpoint of their new conscience. Had God changed? Was He not the same loving God that walked in the garden with them? Of course. What had changed was mans new perception of God. Based upon this perception (the conscience) they created a mythological deity. We continue to do the same today. Where do we look to see if we are living a good Christian life? We look inside to our conscience to see whether it judges us. If we hear no judgment back we feel that we are doing ok. Our barometer in our Christian life becomes our conscience (a neat exercise is to take all the world religions and see how massive a role the conscience plays as our judge whether this be karma, nirvana etc.). We now believe that our conscience speaks for God in a one to one relationship. The barometer in our lives should be us taking in faith who God says we are based upon who He Himself is towards us (a difficult sentence that I need to rewrite and make easier to understand). This is why the Bible speaks of an evil conscience. It is something we should use as an aide (guide) but never as a judge. If I was to make a blanket statement that is far to general to be of much use I would say that it is people believing their consciences about who they are that is the cause of most if not all depression today especially Christians. To view the Bible as an answer book, as a book of principles leads one into moralism. Taking any principal from the Bible (or taking a law) and following it only makes one moral. Our conscience will be satisfied but there is no relationship here. The problem with it is that the principal has been divorced from its context: the person of Jesus Christ. All principals and laws within the Bible must be submitted to who God is (Triune). When this is done and they are worked out of a relationship with our God then they become less principals and more who we are (another sentence that needs work). On the political side we both have countries that were founded on what we call Christian principles (since they side with how we think Christians should act). Since it is clear that these principles have become divorced from who God is and are not worked out in relationship, neither of us live in a Christian nation. Your Bill of Rights and our constitution are great but on their own lead to moralism, not to God. I am going to leave it here for now. Reading over it I realize how much work it needs but it is a start for the conversation. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 4:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Apparently not yours? Why cant you explain WHAT YOUR WORDS MEAN? Dont go weird(er) on us, Lance! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Izzy:words 'mean' things. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judyt:Amen on the 'hatred' observation. I do, however, believe that there exists genuine 'hatred' , in practice, between believing groups in America. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 17:03 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]jt: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill jt: This would undoubtedly depend on how one defines the word "Christian" - which definition in the case of Germany of the 1930's could never have included the "fruit of the Spirit"; the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which "hated" the Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is "hatred of evil" judyt From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large?The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt[EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option.From: Judy Taylor Terry writes:Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages.There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace,Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Izzy:An aside (I think) America was not, is not and, will never be a 'Christian' nation except in name only. Compare Muslim 'nations'. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 23:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]jt: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill jt: This would undoubtedly depend on how one defines the word "Christian" - which definition in the case of Germany of the 1930's could never have included the "fruit of the Spirit"; the country was primarily RC and Lutheran both of which "hated" the Jews. Only one kind of hatred has a part in the Kingdom of God which is "hatred of evil" judyt From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large?The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt[EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option.From: Judy Taylor Terry writes:Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages.There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace,Judy
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
I wonder how many more Jews (and others) would have died if every Christian refused to fight for them. Certainly America would still be an English colony if some Christians had not fought for independence here. Izzy I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world, he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews a lot of lives. Bill
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JT By the second century the early church was off into heresy BT: You've said this on numerous occasions, Judy: I am wondering,what was that heresy? jt: Heresy either adds to or takes from the Word of Truth and it grows as time goes on. The apostles built upon the foundation of Christ the cornerstone and the Church are to be living stones - a nation of kings and priests. However, by the 2nd Century the elders were being called priests following which there were prayers for the dead, veneration of angels, dead saints, and the use of images and on and on to where the Church founded by the apostles is unrecognizable today. JT and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. BT: On the one hand, Constantine is to be thanked for putting an end to Roman sanctioned persecution of Christians; on theother hand, he opened the doorto no end of violent crimeson the part of Christians against humanity -- whether it be in wars against their Christian brothers or against worldly opposition. And so, I agree with you -- in part. Nevertheless, I am surprised he is not your hero. Were it not for him, your doctrinemay have still been consistent with the early NT church. jt: I don't agree that Constantine should be thanked for anything. The fires of persecution are what purifies the Church. Constantine started a bastardized hybrid that is full of mixture and that calls itself the church. JT Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority Yes, you are right: he did. Please allow me to set a couple questions. The early church was under persecution, sometimes quite intense, throughout the Second and Third centuries. These Christians lived in Rome or Roman provinces. They were under Roman rule -- a rule which was truly tyrannical. Nevertheless, they did not consider it a Christian alternative to take up arms and fight for the right to govern themselves as they saw fit. In other words they did not seek to declare their independence from Rome and establish a separate nation of their own. Theirs was not a call to take up weapons: they were to take up their crosses daily. jt: For the Church headquarters is in heaven. Jesus did not come to start another earthly kingdom. However, the people of God are to resist evil which is not exactly 'peace at any price' BT: On the other hand, this is precisely the opposite of what our American forefathers found in the counsel they were receiving. They lived in English colonies, as English citizens, under English rule. Rather than live peaceably under the prescribed laws of their governing authorites, they cried tyrany, rebelled, declared their independence, took up arms, and in a bloodly warfought their way to nation status. All of this they did in and under the name of Christ. jt: If I understand American history correctly the people who left Holland on the Mayflower came to these shores to escape religious oppression in England because they were being forced to be part of a system they considered corrupt. I don't believe God expects his people to be led about by a corrupt system any more than he expects a wife to be insubmission to a corrupt husband.My question is this: If, as you rightly observe, Paul exhorts Christians to obey those who have been given Governmental authority, why was it a "Christian" thing to do for our founders to disobey those who had been given Governmental authorityover them? (I would very much like an answer to this question -- and not only from you, but from Izzy also). jt: God makes a way of escape when there is unbearable oppression and apparently the Colonists believed this was so in 1781 - their cry was against taxation without representation. Do you believe they should have "put up and shut up?" What about abused wives? Should they do the same? If it was so clearly upon Christian principles that our nation was founded (a claim that Izzy and others here on TT are so fond of making), why did the Christians of less than one hundred years after the closing of the NT Canon not find those same "principles" inscriptuarated intheir study? Why didn't those "principal" jump out to them as a strong point of consideration? Why did those principles not drive them to the same conclusions as our founding fathers? Why did they not fight to establish a country of their own, one wherein they could vote (to answer Izzy's indescretion) to uphold the supposedly Christian"rights" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? jt: The NT Canon was closed in 367AD at which time the professing Church was hopelessly mired in mixture. Who knows what they might have been thinkingsince Church and State were one and the same by this time and the daily celebration called mass was adopted shortly afterwards followed by the exaltation of Mary and the first use of the term "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus in
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance from what I've read the professing Church in the Germany by the 1930's was a caricature and this includes Bonhoeffer along with the unbelieving theologians and theologies that came from this country. The Pope and German arm of the RCC (who have always been notoriously anti-semitic) had made a concordat with Hitler and the protestants were just as bad at least so far as the Jews were concerned because they were mostly Lutheran and the Lutherans followed Martin's example. Bonhoeffer was part of a group called the "Confessing Church" which had to do with protecting the rights of pastors. I don't judge him as a person, neither would I want to follow his example. My example is the Christ of the Bible and the hope of my soulisHis promise. Judyt From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I guess we will never be in agreement on most anything Lance. Too many people are already deciding for themselves what is or is not the right thing to do.. The Bible is not only chock full of promises, but has most of the answers I need to guide me. I strongly suspect it has all the answers, if I could just see them as they are. Terry Lance Muir wrote:Terry: My 'Bonhoeffer' point was, that each much decide for himself. Much like the theologies expressed on TT. There is no one (1) right answer to which all must subscribe. The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
The NT Canon was closed in 367AD at which time the professing Church was hopelessly mired in mixture. Judy, You surely do not think that there were any epistles being written after, say maybe, AD 85-95, do you?That is what I meant by the "closing of the Canon." - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 3:20 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JT By the second century the early church was off into heresy BT: You've said this on numerous occasions, Judy: I am wondering,what was that heresy? jt: Heresy either adds to or takes from the Word of Truth and it grows as time goes on. The apostles built upon the foundation of Christ the cornerstone and the Church are to be living stones - a nation of kings and priests. However, by the 2nd Century the elders were being called priests following which there were prayers for the dead, veneration of angels, dead saints, and the use of images and on and on to where the Church founded by the apostles is unrecognizable today. JT and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. BT: On the one hand, Constantine is to be thanked for putting an end to Roman sanctioned persecution of Christians; on theother hand, he opened the doorto no end of violent crimeson the part of Christians against humanity -- whether it be in wars against their Christian brothers or against worldly opposition. And so, I agree with you -- in part. Nevertheless, I am surprised he is not your hero. Were it not for him, your doctrinemay have still been consistent with the early NT church. jt: I don't agree that Constantine should be thanked for anything. The fires of persecution are what purifies the Church. Constantine started a bastardized hybrid that is full of mixture and that calls itself the church. JT Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority Yes, you are right: he did. Please allow me to set a couple questions. The early church was under persecution, sometimes quite intense, throughout the Second and Third centuries. These Christians lived in Rome or Roman provinces. They were under Roman rule -- a rule which was truly tyrannical. Nevertheless, they did not consider it a Christian alternative to take up arms and fight for the right to govern themselves as they saw fit. In other words they did not seek to declare their independence from Rome and establish a separate nation of their own. Theirs was not a call to take up weapons: they were to take up their crosses daily. jt: For the Church headquarters is in heaven. Jesus did not come to start another earthly kingdom. However, the people of God are to resist evil which is not exactly 'peace at any price' BT: On the other hand, this is precisely the opposite of what our American forefathers found in the counsel they were receiving. They lived in English colonies, as English citizens, under English rule. Rather than live peaceably under the prescribed laws of their governing authorites, they cried tyrany, rebelled, declared their independence, took up arms, and in a bloodly warfought their way to nation status. All of this they did in and under the name of Christ. jt: If I understand American history correctly the people who left Holland on the Mayflower came to these shores to escape religious oppression in England because they were being forced to be part of a system they considered corrupt. I don't believe God expects his people to be led about by a corrupt system any more than he expects a wife to be insubmission to a corrupt husband.My question is this: If, as you rightly observe, Paul exhorts Christians to obey those who have been given Governmental authority, why was it a "Christian" thing to do for our founders to disobey those who had been given Governmental authorityover them? (I would very much like an answer to this question -- and not only from you, but from Izzy also). jt: God makes a way of escape when there is unbearable oppression and apparently the Colonists believed this was so in 1781 - their cry was against taxation without representation. Do you believe they should have "put up and shut up?" What about abused wives? Should they do the same? If it was so clearly upon Christian principles that our nation was founded (a claim that Izzy and others here on TT are so fond of making), why did the Christians of less than one hundred years after the closing of the NT Canon not find those same "principles" inscriptuarated intheir study? Why didn't those "principal" jump out to them as a strong point of consideration? Why did those principles not d
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
In a message dated 6/25/2004 2:57:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The debt you owe them is immeasurable. The eyes you read scripture with every day are not fresh eyes (none of us has fresh eyes); rather, they are eyes that have learned both wrongly and rightly from what has gone on before. Surely you do not believe that your faith has been created in a vacuum? I guess the question I have is this: are we capable of "original thought?" I was raised in the Church of Christ. One of its primary doctrines is the "binding of approved apostolic example." In my early twenties and going into my 5th year as pastor (we were called "ministers" -- pastors/elders/bishops all words for the same leader was something other than the minister or preacher). As I said, I was in my early twenties and preaching in northcentral Washington State. I purchased a book by one of the brethren, a book that defended the "binding of example (only)." I was shocked at the authors poor sense of logic -- his complete failure to verify his position. I left that teaching behind, never again to visit that teaching. I believe that I with the help of God, of course, worked my way out of that teaching proving that I am capable of original thought. Understand that "original thought" and "unique thought" are not the same, necessarily. Jonathan, all of the above is really a question to you. What do you think. John Smithson
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Bill, I believe we are to obey the government as long as it does not violate our conscience. We obey God first, government 2nd. When the Revolutionaries fought for freedom from oppression (on many levels) I believe they were laying their lives on the line for what their conscience told them to do. Some principles precede others. Do you think your government could ever violate your conscience to the point of your civil disobedience? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor AND SO, my question isSTILL this: If, as you rightly observe, Paul exhorts Christians to obey those who have been given Governmental authority, why was it a Christian thing to do for our founders to disobey those who had been given Governmental authorityover them? I would very much like an answer to this question -- and not only from you, but from Izzy also. WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY AGAIN?
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your questiona lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one rulingwith a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose HisKingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually awalk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him duringthe new millenium. There are no exhortations to freeslaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out ofthe Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the otherapostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and todeal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day);and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handlethe world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Good morning family:Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased.There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased.There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God.This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him.Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense.Your thoughts please, with verses if possible.I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your questiona lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one rulingwith a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose HisKingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually awalk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him duringthe new millenium. There are no exhortations to freeslaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out ofthe Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the otherapostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and todeal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day);and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handlethe world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Good morning family:Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased.There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased.There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God.This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him.Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense.Your thoughts please, with verses if possible.I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance Muir wrote: Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your questiona lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one rulingwith a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose HisKingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually awalk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him duringthe new millenium. There are no exhortations to freeslaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out ofthe Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the otherapostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and todeal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day);and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handlethe world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt == Mornin' Judy: May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed. God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.) Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Good questions. I think there's a difference between "kill" and murder. God did tell His people to kill others in Scripture, but that was God, not man. If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. Regarding your question on if we can live to please both God and man...I don't think so. I think this is why we have so many problems today. We began to please man (and ourselves) and not God. People are persecuted today for refusing to please man. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 24 June, 2004 08:22To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: PROBABLE SPAM Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war,and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed.God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and thiswill eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believerchooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Terry:My 'Bonhoeffer' point was, that each much decide for himself. Much like the theologies expressed on TT. There is no one (1) right answer to which all must subscribe. The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. Once again, I must ask that respondents think before writing. O Ya? just doesn't cut it. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 08:22 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Lance Muir wrote: Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your questiona lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one rulingwith a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose HisKingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually awalk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him duringthe new millenium. There are no exhortations to freeslaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out ofthe Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the otherapostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and todeal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day);and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handlethe world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt == Mornin' Judy:May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed. God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 08:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and thiswill eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believerchooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have anyexamples of how it has helped in theworld at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasioncontrolled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and thiswill eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believerchooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Well done. John In a message dated 6/24/2004 4:21:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:52:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. Lance, if you are voicing an opinion against viewing the Bible as a book of formulae, I very much agree. principles - yes; formula, no. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:04:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? I took Lance's remark as a comment regarding the physical world. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy:In this(spiritual warfare)I believe you to be correct. However, in the other (just plain warfare) it is an option. Many Christians have chosen this road. This is a reflection of their conscience before God. Many in the early years of the church chose this route. I wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 09:02 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have anyexamples of how it has helped in theworld at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasioncontrolled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and thiswill eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believerchooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:22:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty? On merit, it is ok. In practice - absolutely not until we figure out how not to send innocent folk to the death row. DNA has caused me to change my mind about the death penaly. It is painful for me to imagine an innocent man being put to death -- and it has happened as number of times. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
John:Me too. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 09:30 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:22:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty?On merit, it is ok. In practice - absolutely not until we figure out how not to send innocent folk to the death row. DNA has caused me to change my mind about the death penaly. It is painful for me to imagine an innocent man being put to death -- and it has happened as number of times. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. I wonder why the early church did not see it that way? Maybe they didn't hear God's voice telling them to kill people. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good questions. I think there's a difference between "kill" and murder. God did tell His people to kill others in Scripture, but that was God, not man. If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. Regarding your question on if we can live to please both God and man...I don't think so. I think this is why we have so many problems today. We began to please man (and ourselves) and not God. People are persecuted today for refusing to please man. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 24 June, 2004 08:22To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: PROBABLE SPAM Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war,and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed.God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance, the confusion always comes when we confuse Gods commandments on an individual/personal level with Gods authority given to governing bodies. Yes, of course it is okay to fight as a soldier. No it is not okay to fight as an individual, UNLESS it is in self-defense (who would not protect himself or his family from an intruder, for example?). Turn the other cheek to him who smites you on the cheek ie: personal insult. And no, we cannot always please God and men. But God is not displeased when we fight nobly in the service of our nation. If we disagree with the morality of the war in this country we can always be conscientious objectors. Izzy We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
The devil ... has on occasioncontrolled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. Iwonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have costif every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it.No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have anyexamples of how it has helped in theworld at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasioncontrolled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and thiswill eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believerchooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Bill: Why would you call the Third Reich Christian? They were into all kinds of occult practices. Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian. Grace and Peace, judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy, Hitler's army was made up of German citizens. Those citizens were members of one or the other of Germany's churches. They were baptized Christian. Why didn't those baptized Christians refuse to fight? As for you comment, I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian. It's smoke and mirrors, Judy, and you know it. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Bill: Why would you call the Third Reich Christian? They were into all kinds of occult practices. Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian. Grace and Peace, judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
By the second century the early church was off into heresy and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority and it appears (at least once) that he valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. Do you see the image of Christ in any of them Bill? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06/24/2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Bill: Why would you call the Third Reich "Christian?" Now there's a giant illogical leap. Bill addressed individuals in Hitler's army and jt turned that into 'the Third Reich'. Do you suppose that Bush's army only consists of Reprobaticans and no Damnocrats? Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I do. My father-in-law was an officer in the German Army. They were mostly just folks (like today's U.S. Army). They were driven by nationalism (like today's U.S. Army). They had bad apples (like today's U.S. Army). Their S.S. abused and even killed people (like today's "intelligence" officershttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=564e=4u=/nm/iraq_abuse_dcand U.S. Army personnel). They were devoted to their Fuhrer (like today's U.S. Army). Patriotism is idolatry. I close as did another Beloved Apostle: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amein." (I John 5:21) Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Hi Judy, You have probably made the following comment about 7 or 8 times since I have been on TruthTalk: By the second century the early church was off into heresy. Could you please qualify this with full text references to second century heresies that you are concerned with? I would like to see what you come up with. And to answer your question to Bill, yes I do see the image of Christ all over the place in the orders you mention. You seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that you would not be Judy the Christian as you are without the church fathers and the orders that developed throughout our history. The debt you owe them is immeasurable. The eyes you read scripture with every day are not fresh eyes (none of us has fresh eyes); rather, they are eyes that have learned both wrongly and rightly from what has gone on before. Surely you do not believe that your faith has been created in a vacuum? It appears that you actually believe that you would believe exactly as you do if you were the first person to pick up the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through its words. What you believe is a mixture of the Holy Spirit and two thousand years of tradition and 'readings' with favour given to some strands over others. Jonathan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence By the second century the early church was off into heresy and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority and it appears (at least once) that he valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. Do you see the image of Christ in any of them Bill?
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence JT By the second century the early church was off into heresy BT: You've said this on numerous occasions, Judy: I am wondering,what was that heresy? JT and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. BT: On the one hand, Constantine is to be thanked for putting an end to Roman sanctioned persecution of Christians; on theother hand, he opened the doorto no end of violent crimeson the part of Christians against humanity -- whether it be in wars against their Christian brothers or against worldly opposition. And so, I agree with you -- in part. Nevertheless, I am surprised he is not your hero. Were it not for him, your doctrinemay have still been consistent with the early NT church. JT Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority Yes, you are right: he did. Please allow me to set a couple questions. The early church was under persecution, sometimes quite intense, throughout the Second and Third centuries. These Christians lived in Rome or Roman provinces. They were under Roman rule -- a rule which was truly tyrannical. Nevertheless, they did not consider it a Christian alternative to take up arms and fight for the right to govern themselves as they saw fit. In other words they did not seek to declare their independence from Rome and establish a separate nation of their own. Theirs was not a call to take up weapons: they were to take up their crosses daily.On the other hand, this is precisely the opposite of what our American forefathers found in the counsel they were receiving. They lived in English colonies, as English citizens, under English rule. Rather than live peaceably under the prescribed laws of their governing authorites, they cried tyrany, rebelled, declared their independence, took up arms, and in a bloodly warfought their way to nation status. All of this they did in and under the name of Christ.My question is this: If, as you rightly observe, Paul exhorts Christians to obey those who have been given Governmental authority, why was it a "Christian" thing to do for our founders to disobey those who had been given Governmental authorityover them? (I would very much like an answer to this question -- and not only from you, but from Izzy also). If it was so clearly upon Christian principles that our nation was founded (a claim that Izzy and others here on TT are so fond of making), why did the Christians of less than one hundred years after the closing of the NT Canon not find those same "principles" inscriptuarated intheir study? Why didn't those "principal" jump out to them as a strong point of consideration? Why did those principles not drive them to the same conclusions as our founding fathers? Why did they not fight to establish a country of their own, one wherein they could vote (to answer Izzy's indescretion) to uphold the supposedly Christian"rights" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? JT and it appears (at least once) that [Paul] valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. BT: Yes, he did. And he did it in a non-violent way -- a difference which, in light of this discussion, I am noting. JT Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. BT: It was not early "passivism" which led to these things, Judy. These were all non-violent, post-Constantinian reactions to Constantinian "Christian" madness. JT Do you see the "image of Christ" in any of them Bill? BT: Yes, to some extent, I do; however, not completely. These witnesses -- characteristically appealing primarily to the NT and the example of Jesus -- have spoken out firmly against all war and killing and have declared such practices incompatible with following Jesus. In this they are to be admired anddo reflect the "image of Christ." Nevertheless,as movements they all moved away from Christ and into insignificance the more they removed themselves from participation in the world. Never as Christians are we called to enact a fortress mentality. Allow me to state the obvious: history teaches that violence simply begets violence.The long history of Christian "just wars" has wrought suffering past all telling. Might it be that reason and sad experience could disabuse us (read Christians) of the hope that we can approximate God's justice through killing? Reason must be healed and taught by Scripture, and our experience must be transformed by the renewing of our minds in conformitywith the mind of Christ. Only thus canChristians overcome their Constantinianwarring madness. And let me clearly state that the reasons for choosing Jusus' way of peacemaking
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance Muir wrote: Terry:My 'Bonhoeffer' point was, that each much decide for himself. Much like the theologies expressed on TT. There is no one (1) right answer to which all must subscribe. The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. I guess we will never be in agreement on most anything Lance. Too many people are already deciding for themselves what is or is not the right thing to do.. The Bible is not only chock full of promises, but has most of the answers I need to guide me. I strongly suspect it has all the answers, if I could just see them as they are. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 8:27:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill I do not think that "lose of life" is an argument against pacifism if that belief (pacifism) is based on a sense of Divine directive. Of course pacifism will lead to lose of life, alla Christ and the Cross. The problem is seen (IMO) in a circumstance which would include "lose of life" for those who are not believers and/or are not pacifists. There are sound biblical arguments for pacifism (as well as against that belief). Look to President Carter (the best worsted president we ever had). He is and was a pacifist. Did you know that. A pacifist --- trying to command the respect of those who despise us, aggressively work toward our (America) destruction, and understand military might apart from all other considerations (love they neighbor, prayer, faith, turn the other cheek, etc). I do not believe that a Christian pacifist is qualified to serve as President of the United States. Pacifism can be said to "work" in the advancement of the Christian faith -- it will not work in a world of bullies and thugs and perverts. Why - I am asking myself this question (thinking out loud, here). And I would say that it is because the goals are different. The goal of this country among other issues is to survive and prosper. Neither of these is the goal of the Faith and they are not the issues because The Faith is God's idea and it is He. personally. who is opposed. He is the line of defense and thousands of years of success in this regard proves the point. Just thinking (carpenters do that once in a while) John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:52:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Damn ocrats? ahm. John
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal of inner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination of Hitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to the end of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. Original Message - From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:13 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: "here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think" Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal of inner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination of Hitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to the end of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Izzie:Would that it were so. War, peace, death, life, black, white, love, hate, good, bad. I'm fairly confident that neither you nor Judy have found life itself to be functionally at the simple (read simplistic) level. PS: Do you know why I chose to respond with the Bonhoeffer illustration? Does Judy? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: "here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think" Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with sa
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
I'm off to a 90 minute visit to the beloved dentist. Why? I didn't take adequate care. Nothing complicated there. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: "here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think" Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good morning family: What a nice way to say hello. Yes, I consider even rascally old Lance to be part of my TT family. J Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. And why do some folks have such a hard time with that??? Others call it legalism. Duhnot what God calls it, though. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. Arent the Ten Commandments wonderful? They keep us from wondering what God wants us to do/not do! No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Terry, dont forget that in His first incarnation, Jesus came to reconcile. In His 2nd, He comes to Judge: Rev 3: 11And I saw (37) heaven opened, and behold, a (38) white horse, and He who sat on it is called (39) Faithful and True, and in (40) righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His (41) eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many (42) diadems; and He has a (43) name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a (44) robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (45) The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in (46) fine linen, (47) white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15(48) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that (49) with it He may strike down the nations, and He will (50) rule them with a rod of iron; and (51) He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has (52) a name written, (53) KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to (54) all the birds which fly in (55) midheaven, (56) Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may (57) eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [1] commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, (58) both free men and slaves, and (59) small and great. 19And I saw (60) the beast and (61) the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who (62) sat on the horse and against His army. 20And the beast was seized, and with him the (63) false prophet who (64) performed the signs (65) in his presence, by which he (66) deceived those who had received the (67) mark of the beast and those who (68) worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the (69) lake of (70) fire which burns with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which (71) came from the mouth of Him who (72) sat on the horse, and (73) all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Keep in mind that those who dont want to see the real Jesus will dismiss this as a metaphor. But those who understand that the O.T. God is the same as the N.T. God dont make that mistake.) Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Ecc 3: 1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven-- 2 A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted. 3 Atime to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up. 4 A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance. 5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. 6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away. 7
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Proves my point? J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence I'm off to a 90 minute visit to the beloved dentist. Why? I didn't take adequate care. Nothing complicated there. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal of inner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination of Hitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to the end of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Yes, Lance, I think I do. You wanted to make a point that when Bonhoeffer stood up and took action it cost him his life. So you assume he did the wrong thing. I dont make that assumption. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Izzie:Would that it were so. War, peace, death, life, black, white, love, hate, good, bad. I'm fairly confident that neither you nor Judy have found life itself to be functionally at the simple (read simplistic) level. PS: Do you know why I chose to respond with the Bonhoeffer illustration? Does Judy? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal of inner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination of Hitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to the end of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says I hate divorce. He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. If that is so, Izzy, why must their be 1559 instructions preceding them? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: "here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think" Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense. Your thoughts please, with verses if possible. I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Izzy:Nope! That isn't what I meant. He lived out CONFLICTING CONVICTIONS! There's more to it than that but, that'll do for now. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 10:11 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Yes, Lance, I think I do. You wanted to make a point that when Bonhoeffer stood up and took action it cost him his life. So you assume he did the wrong thing. I dont make that assumption. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:46 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Izzie:Would that it were so. War, peace, death, life, black, white, love, hate, good, bad. I'm fairly confident that neither you nor Judy have found life itself to be functionally at the simple (read simplistic) level. PS: Do you know why I chose to respond with the Bonhoeffer illustration? Does Judy? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Again, Lance, you often seem to be confused by simplicity. Why do you find comfort in foggy, fuzzy, vague, ideas only to be affronted by real, direct answers? Izzy From Lifes Little Instruction Book, #1559 Remember that all important truths are simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:07 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Just once will someone help Judyt understand ambiguity. You, and perhaps Terry, want for someone to say: "here's the answer, here's the verse(s), this is what you are to think" Neither Scripture nor life can be reduced to this sort of formulaic thinking (in my opinion, of course). - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Right about what Lance? Right to be a pacifist or right to attempt to assassinate Hitler? What about the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller who wrote: In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time noone was left to speak up. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, by conviction, a pacifist. After a great deal ofinner turmoil, he decided to participate in an attempted assassination ofHitler. It failed. He was arrested. He was hanged a few days prior to theend of the war. I believe Bonhoeffer was right. From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good morning family: Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased. There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased. There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God. This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him. Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of
