subject:"\[TruthTalk\] thinking out loud"





JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a 
witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach 
ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is 
and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we 
can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and 
it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation 
that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their 
foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These 
peoplehave a different spirit 
at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
At least this is what God says about 
it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF 
Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about 
these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR 
FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.

This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS 
WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 16, 2005 06:28
  Subject: [TruthTalk] thinking out 
  loud
  
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a 
  witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
  pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach 
  ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that 
  is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, 
  we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word 
  and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation 
  that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their 
  foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These 
  peoplehave a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
  the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about 
it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what 
YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that 
you agree/disagree and, why?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Lance 
  Muir 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 16, 2005 06:36
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out 
  loud
  
  This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF 
  Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about 
  these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR 
  FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.
  
  This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS 
  WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: December 16, 2005 06:28
Subject: [TruthTalk] thinking out 
loud


JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as 
a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach 
ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that 
is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word 
and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
These peoplehave a different spirit 

at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of 
disobedience.
At least this is what God says about 
it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud





Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the 
verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your
extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. 
Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom.
If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then 
you will need to read your Bible some more Lance.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF 
  Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about 
  these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR 
  FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD 
  SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)
  
From: Judy Taylor 

JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as 
a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach 
ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that 
is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word 
and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
These peoplehave a different spirit 

at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of 
disobedience.
At least this is what God says about 
it.
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say that 
God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR choices)citations 
appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God means are univocal (of one 
meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) will simply reply AMEN 
JUDY/GOD!l

I, and I trust all other TT participants, would 
acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that 
this is ALWAYS the case. 

IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post then, 
I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once and for 
all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 16, 2005 07:13
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out 
  loud
  
  
  Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the 
  verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your
  extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest 
  out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's 
  Kingdom.
  If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word 
  then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance.
  
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
This (the citations below) are Judy's choices 
oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say 
about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND 
BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE 
THUS.This response is to your saying 
'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, 
Judy!)

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation 
  as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
  pleasure. It is all about God. We can either 
  attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality 
  that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
  JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
  Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the 
  soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
  creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
  their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
  the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
  These peoplehave a different spirit 
  
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
  the spirit that now works in the children of 
  disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about 
  it.
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud





You are saying that the scriptures I cite below reflect 
my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that if
I claim to know the mind of God on this matter then I 
am claiming something that is above and beyond others on
TT who you call my "fellow believers"

Of course I disagree with you Lance because being born 
of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in the
second Adam since before the foundation of the 
world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not 
so.
There is no division in Christ.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Just one time, please. Will you say back to me 
  what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me 
  that you agree/disagree and, why?
  
From: Lance Muir 

This (the citations below) are Judy's choices 
oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say 
about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND 
BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE 
THUS.

This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS 
IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation 
  as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
  pleasure. It is all about God. We can either 
  attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality 
  that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
  JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
  Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the 
  soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
  creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
  their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
  the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
  These peoplehave a different spirit 
  
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
  the spirit that now works in the children of 
  disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about 
  it.
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




Close but, no cigar, Are you claiming, through your 
citations pertaining to whatever issue is being discussed. to ALWAYS know the 
mind of God on EVERY matter?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 16, 2005 07:31
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out 
  loud
  
  
  You are saying that the scriptures I cite below 
  reflect my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that 
  if
  I claim to know the mind of God on this matter then I 
  am claiming something that is above and beyond others on
  TT who you call my "fellow believers"
  
  Of course I disagree with you Lance because being 
  born of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in 
  the
  second Adam since before the foundation of the 
  world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not 
  so.
  There is no division in Christ.
  
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
Just one time, please. Will you say back to me 
what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell 
me that you agree/disagree and, why?

  From: Lance Muir 
  
  This (the citations below) are Judy's choices 
  oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say 
  about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND 
  BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE 
  THUS.
  
  This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST 
  THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, 
  Judy!)
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the 
creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either 
attach ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality 
that is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to 
anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by 
being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the 
soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify 
Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
These peoplehave a different spirit 

at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of 
disobedience.
At least this is what God says about 
it.
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread Terry Clifton





It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.




Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation
as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure.
It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only
reality that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to
anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by
the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by
the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in
unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would
you get the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These
peoplehave a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2)
which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




Hi Terry,
where would you get that idea?

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:51:49 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in 
  agreement.Judy 
  Taylor wrote: 
  


JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as 
a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach 
ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that 
is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word 
and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
These peoplehave a different spirit 

at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of 
disobedience.
At least this is what God says about 
it.
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread Terry Clifton





It is quite obvious, Judy. Never on TT before have two people been so
compatible. Must be the Qwanza, xmas, winter break spirit. :)


Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  Hi Terry,
  where would you get that idea?
  
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:51:49 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in
agreement.




Judy Taylor wrote: 

  
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the
creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only
reality that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves
to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit
by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the
soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know
by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in
unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would
you get the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These
peoplehave a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2)
which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about
it.



  
  

judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
 is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at
work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being

Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course the it is the Father who draws man. I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above.

Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. Read Matt 7:11. Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Tell me what is going on in John 3:21.

drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it.

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit
at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
At least this is what God says about it. Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud


Judy -- regarding being born again: do you think this is something tht happens to a person from outside the person? Or, is new birth the experience we have when 
our person is aligned with the God within? 

jd

-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say that God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR choices)citations appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God means are univocal (of one meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) will simply reply AMEN JUDY/GOD!l

I, and I trust all other TT participants, would acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that this is ALWAYS the case. 

IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post then, I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once and for all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. 

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: December 16, 2005 07:13
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud


Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your
extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom.
If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)

From: Judy Taylor 

JD
And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves 
to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit 
at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
At least this is what God says about it.
 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said.

When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I can share -- I write for me, in these instances.

Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that follows .without becoming a pantheist !!

I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We are not involved in such activity often enough.

-- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.Judy Taylor wrote:

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud






On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation 
  as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to 
  will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about 
  God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit 
  life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a 
  choice !!
  
We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being

Each of us plays a role in the reviving 
ontology we call salvation. 

Yes. Our part is to repent and turn 
from our old conversation in this world or to 
ignore/reject
the offer of eternal 
life.

II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the 
Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of 
course the it is the Father who draws man. 


This only happens one way which is through 
Christ who is the only way to the Father.

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a 
point of truth for all men. God is at work in us 
all. But we still have choices, which you you, as 
well. So I am not sure why you wrote the 
above.

Because God is NOT at work in ALL 
men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' 
received
Christ along with the 
indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive. 


Your belief that man is totally depraved of 
good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is 
fantasy. 

I don't believe man is "totally depraved" 
in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead
to truth and the life and light of 
God. John says the condemnation is that men love 
darkness
and refuse to come to the light. God is not 
working in these men.

Read Matt 7:11. 


Why? This chapter has to do with asking, 
seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with 
the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - 
Vs.15
warns about false prophets which are known 
by their spiritual fruit.

Explain the good works of the confession of 
sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the 
Son of God. 

Confession of sin and turning from same is 
normal christianity, where do "good works"
come it, this is not a work it is a godly 
response to truth in the heart.

Tell me what is going on in John 
3:21. 

It's a statement about thosewho 
practice truth and come out into the light so that what 

they do may be plainly shown to be of God.

drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word 
and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it. 

In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
the
idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
These peoplehave a different spirit 

at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
the spirit that now works in the children of 
disobedience.
At least this is what God says about it. 


Nothin you have quoted challenges anything 
I have written. 

To say that EVERY MAN has God working in 
them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking
Ppl outside of Christ have the devil 
working in them.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud






On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:29:34 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Judy -- regarding being born again: do you think this is 
  something tht happens to a person from outside the person? Or, is new 
  birth the experience we have when our person is aligned with the God 
  within? jd
  
  There is no God within until we are born of the 
  Spirit JD - which is being born from above or born again.
  
  From: 
"Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say 
that God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR 
choices)citations appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God 
means are univocal (of one meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) 
will simply reply AMEN JUDY/GOD!l

I, and I trust all other TT participants, would 
acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that 
this is ALWAYS the case. 

IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post 
then, I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once 
and for all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. 

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use 
  the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit 
  your
  extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest 
  out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's 
  Kingdom.
  If you don't think that what I wrote is God's 
  Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance.
  
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
This (the citations below) are Judy's 
choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God 
has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT 
ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE 
THUS.This response is to your 
saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According 
to you, Judy!)

  From: Judy 
  Taylor 
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the 
  creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
  pleasure. It is all about God. We can either 
  attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only 
  reality that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to 
  anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by 
  being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
  Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the 
  soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
  creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify 
  Him
  as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness 
  - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
  the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered 
  toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which 
  is the spirit that now works in the children of 
  disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about 
  it.
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud






On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:46:01 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. 
  
  I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said. 
  
  Big IF JD. I don't read Terri's comment in a 
  positiveway, I think he is addressing something else.
  
  When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, 
  really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and 
  over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a 
  knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I 
  can share -- I write for me, in these instances.
  
  Oh! Then why do you send it to the TT 
  List? 
  
  Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how 
  connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that 
  follows .without becoming a pantheist !! 
  
  Are you calling Israel the firstfruit of 
  Creation?
  
  I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing 
  out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing 
  and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth 
  as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We 
  are not involved in such activity often enough. 
  
  jd
  
  -- 
Original message -- From: Terry Clifton 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] It is sooo nice to see that the two of 
you are finally in 
agreement.Judy 
Taylor wrote: 

  
  
  JD
  And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation 
  as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him both to will and to accomplish His 
  pleasure. It is all about God. We can either 
  attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality 
  that is and die. What a choice !!
  
  We have no power to attach ourselves to anything 
  JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
  Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the 
  soul
  as we choose to walk in it. 
  
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the 
  creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - 
  their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get 
  the
  idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? 
  These peoplehave a different spirit 
  
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is 
  the spirit that now works in the children of 
  disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about 
  it.
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !!

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being

Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation.

Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject
the offer of eternal life. Well, ok.

II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course it is the Father who draws man.

This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I think I agree with this.

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above.

Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received
Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive. Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No.

Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy.

I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead
to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness
and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man.

Read Matt 7:11.

Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15
warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts " ??

Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the
Son of God.

Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works"
come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. You are reaching, here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we do (ala Matt 7:11).

Tell me what is going on in John 3:21.

It's a statement about thosewho practice truth and come out into the light so that what
they do may be plainly shown to be of God.

drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. The fact of John 3:21 is that the works performed occur before we come to the light.

Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written.

To say that EVERY MAN has God working in them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking
Ppl outside of Christ have the devil working in them.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being

Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation.

Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject
the offer of eternal life.

II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course the it is the Father who draws man.

This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father.

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above.

Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received
Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.

Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy.

Read Matt 7:11.

Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the
Son of God.

Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works"
come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart.

Tell me what is going on in John 3:21.

It's a statement about thosewho practice truth and come out into the light so that what
they do may be plainly shown to be of God.

drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
as we choose to walk in it.

Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written.

To say that EVERY MAN has God working in them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking
Ppl outside of Christ have the devil working in them.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:46:01 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. 
I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said. 

Big IF JD. I don't read Terri's comment in a positiveway, I think he is addressing something else. Terry !!! What say ye??

When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I can share -- I write for me, in these instances.

Oh! Then why do you send it to the TT List? Sometimes, I really don't know. I do know that your only reason is to correct and judge. 

Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that follows .without becoming a pantheist !! 

Are you calling Israel the firstfruit of Creation? No. I was referring to "let there be light." Something evil in that ??

I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We are not involved in such activity often enough. 

jd

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread ttxpress




whileJC the 
shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible 
informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, goingonly 
through him

your idea of one 
way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting 
JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and 
water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the 
holy of holies likethey got the only key to the 
kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod himselfto 
changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its 
dualism, 
not biblicism


On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  ||
  
  only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the 
  "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as 
  we choose to walk in it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread Terry Clifton





Don't have any idea why this thing is changing colors on me.
Terry

  

  Any way.Let me suggest
that at some point in everyone's life, God reveals Himself and offers
salvation to every individual. I say that because God is not willing
that any be lost, and if it is not His will for any to be lost, then
all must have at some point, the opportunity to be saved. Therefore,
if God is not at work in us now, He either has been, or will be. So I
somewhat agree with John's statement.
  

  

 God, however, does not strive with men forever. At some point,
He stamps the dust off 
 His feet and moves on. Some are then given over to a
reprobate mind and are foreverlost. Others will have
things enter their lives that remind them that the Father's love is
such   that He will welcome them home at any time, and they
will then repent, so in some respect I agree with Judy, that God is not
continually working in the life of everyone.

  

Peace on earth,
or at least on TT?   Terry 
  

  


  

  I believe that Philip 2:12-13
reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But
we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why
you wrote the above.
  
  Because God is NOT at work in
ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received
  Christ
along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:03:43 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 
  1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work 
  within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It 
  is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality 
  and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and 
  die. What a choice !!
  

  
We have no power to attach ourselves to 
anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being 
Born of the Spirit

Each of us plays a role in the reviving 
ontology we call salvation. 

Yes. Our part is to repent and 
turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject 
the 
offer of eternal life. 

Well, ok.

II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the 
Corinthians this wise: " be ye reconciled to 
God." Of course it is the Father who draws 
man. 

This only happens 
one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the 
Father. 

I think I agree with this. 


I hope you do because it is Jesus who 
said "I am the Way, the Truth  the Life, no man comes to the Father 
BUT by Me" (John 
14:6)

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a 
point of truth for all men. God is at work in us 
all. But we still have choices, which you you, as 
well. So I am not sure why you wrote the 
above.

Because God is NOT at work in ALL 
men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received 
Christ 
along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT 
receive.(John 
14:17)

Yes He is. No man comes to the 
son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that 
all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 
2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of 
the person? No. 

Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 
2? You can't have God and the spirit of this 
world
working in you at the same time. 
Double minded ppl receive nothing from God...
The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 
2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi.

Your belief that man is totally 
depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit 
is fantasy. 

I don't believe man is "totally 
depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead 
to truth and the life and light of God. John says 
the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God 
is not working in these men. 

Actully, you do believe in the total 
depravity of man. 

So now you are not only going to tell 
me what you believe JD - you are also going
to tell me what I believe 
also??

Read Matt 7:11. 


Why? This chapter has to do with 
asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the 
narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad 
road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their 
spiritual fruit. 

Did you miss the part that says "you 
being evil know how to give good gifts " 
??

No, I saw that part but the ones He 
gives the good gifts to are those who ask
He does not just pour spiritual gifts 
all over the disinterested even if it does
rain on both just and unjust. The 
temporal blessings are just that.

Explain the good works of the 
confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the 
Son of God. 


Confession of sin and turning from same 
is normal christianity, where do "good works" 
come it, 
this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the 
heart.

You are reaching, 
here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and 
"normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we 
do (ala Matt 7:11). 

Matt 7:11 is a scripture that is used 
to encourage people to seek the Baptism in
the Holy Spirit but these people are 
already born again believers. This does not
prove the unbelieve has God working in 
him or anything like that.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud




I'm not talking about any such nonsense G. - The 
dualism is all in your own head along with all the other isms.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:00:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  whileJC the 
  shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible 
  informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, 
  goingonly through him
  
  your idea of one 
  way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting 
  JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and 
  water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the 
  holy of holies likethey got the only key to the 
  kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod 
  himselfto changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its 
  dualism, not biblicism
  
  
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  

||

only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is 
the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread Dean Moore









- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 12/16/2005 7:31:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

I'm not talking about any such nonsense G. - The dualism is all in your own head along with all the other isms.
cd: :-)

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:00:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

whileJC the shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, goingonly through him

your idea of one way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the holy of holies likethey got the only key to the kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod himselfto changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its dualism, not biblicism


On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


||

only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:03:43 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Born of the Spirit

Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation.

Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life.

Well, ok.

II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: " be ye reconciled to God." Of course it is the Father who draws man.

This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father.

I think I agree with this.

I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) Since your thinking is not identical to scritpure, I am not sure what is meant by you with the words "through Christ" and so "I think I agree .."

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above.

Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.(John 14:17) So, unregenerated man can receive Christ without the help of the Father, he can give good gifts, he can even live a good enough life to avoid the judgment of God (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything else?

Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No.

Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world
working in you at the same time. Double minded ppl receive nothing from God...
This is just plain wrong, in view of scripture. While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well. That passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man AT THE SAME TIME. ... let's not forget Romans 7:25.

The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. So what. When you associate John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage, you can see that there is a sense in which God is at work within us all.Old Testament writersspeak of the "still small voice within." That would be GOD.Such an explanation offers the simplest explanation ofthe fact that God draws the sinner to Christ.

Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy.

I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men.

Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man.

So now you are not only going to tell me what you believe JD - you are also going
to tell me what I believe also?? Its a tough job, but someone has to do it. Look, Judy. You believe man is born a sinner. You believe that no one can do good apart from the influence of the indwelling. You don't even think we can understand scripture without some sort of divination. THAT IS BY DEFINITION "total depravity" in my book.

Read Matt 7:11.

Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit.

Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts " ??

No, I saw that part but the ones He gives the good gifts to are those who ask
He does not just pour spiritual gifts all over the disinterested even if it does
rain on both just and unjust. The temporal blessings are just that.You are talking about what He does and I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE EVIL ONES can do -- give gifts that are good !!!

Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God.

Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart.

You are reaching, here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we do (ala Matt 7:11).

Matt 7:11 is a scripture that is used to

RE: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread ShieldsFamily









Lance, you need to stop mocking people who
believe the plain unvarnished scriptures, or one day you will regret it before
the Lord. Humble yourself now, or you will be humbled later. Just for your
best, iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005
6:39 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking
out loud







Close but, no cigar, Are you claiming, through your
citations pertaining to whatever issue is being discussed. to ALWAYS know the
mind of God on EVERY matter?







- Original Message - 





From: Judy Taylor






To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Sent: December 16, 2005
07:31





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
thinking out loud

















You are saying that the scriptures I
cite below reflect my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that if





I claim to know the mind of God on this
matter then I am claiming something that is above and beyond others on





TT who you call my fellow
believers











Of course I disagree with you Lance
because being born of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in
the





second Adam since before the foundation
of the world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not
so.





There is no division in Christ.











On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:







Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what YOU
BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that you
agree/disagree and, why?







From: Lance Muir












This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures
which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters.
UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS
(do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.











This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD
SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!)







From: Judy Taylor












JD





And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as
a witness of God just as surely as God is at 





work within him both to will and to accomplish His
pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach
ourselves 





to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that
is and die. What a choice !!











We have no power to attach ourselves to
anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being





drawn by the Father through the Spirit
by the Word and it is the engrafted Word which is able to save the
soul





as we choose to walk in it.












In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by
the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him





as God and hold the truth in
unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you
get the





idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered
toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit 





at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2)
which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.





At least this is what God says about it.

















judyt

He that says I know Him and doesn't keep His Commandments

is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread ttxpress




maybe current 
conservativeculture's root level dualistic tendencyalters the word 
'word' in Jamesto 'Word'--apparently your dualism requires it, too, 
butitain't written that way, M'am, e.g.,:


James 1:21(King James Version)

..receive with meekness the engrafted 
word..
your innovative 
private rendering of the biblereinforces the doctrinal demand you 
place squarely upon it--its a manipulative approach to God, too,M'am, as 
ugly as any other counterfeiter's, partic the inability/unwillingness 
toanalyze any ofyour own 
presuppostions

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  

  
  ||
  only come to Christ one way..by being 
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the 
  Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able 
  to save the soul as we choose to walk in 
  it.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

2005-12-16 Thread ttxpress




myth (that's a 
dangerous platitude whilethere is division in your own theology 
fromyour own mind--your two manufactured approaches to salvation joined at 
the hip todaycommunicate divergent theories 
of'Christ')

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:34:50 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  There is no division in 
  Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 02:49:37 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Ithink I agree with
this.

I hope you do because it is Jesus
who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to
the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6)

Since your thinking is not identical to
scritpure, I am not sure what is meant by you with the words
"through Christ" and so "I think I agree .."

This is ridiculous JD, what I mean
is exactly what John 14:6 says without any added anything. How much more plain
can that be?

I believe that Philip 2:12-13
reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in
us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as
well. So I am not sure why you wrote the
above.

Because God is
NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have
'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit...
who the world CAN NOT receive.(John
14:17)

So, unregenerated man can receive Christ
without the help of the Father, he can give good
gifts, he can even live a good enough life to avoid the
judgment of God (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything
else?

No unregenerate man can not receive
Christ aside from being drawn
by the Father (John 6:44).
The unregenerate can receive God's temporal blessings ie: it rains on both just and unjust
etc. and No he can not live a good enough life to avoid the judgment.
Nineveh temporarily repented remember? Later on they reneged and were
destroyed anyway.

Yes He is. No man comes to
the son except the Father draws him. God is
concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in
Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in
the life of the person? No.

Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1,
2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world
working in you at the same time. Double
minded ppl receive nothing from God (James
1:8).

This is just plain wrong, in view of
scripture.

No it isn't JD. Everything I
am writing is exactly what scripture is saying and since the scriptures are not contradictory
you need to reconcile these in your own mind.

While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why
not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well. That
passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man
AT THE SAME TIME. ... let's not forget Romans
7:25.

The man in Romans 7 wanted to do
things God's way and so does the person in Eph 4:21 that is "Assuming that you
have really heard Him and been taught by Him... strip yourselves of
your former nature (put off and discard your old unrenewed self) which
characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt
through lusts and desires that spring from delusion"- So this person has made a
clear
choice and is not "of two opinions
or of two minds"The ppl Paul writes to in
Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at
Philippi.

So what. When you associate
John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage, you can see that there is
a sense in which God is at work within us all.Old
Testament writersspeak of the "still small voice
within." That would be GOD.Such an explanation
offers the simplest explanation ofthe fact that God
draws the sinner to Christ.

You mean an old testament prophet
by the name of Elijah spoke of the "still small voice" - Prophets had a ministry
gift anointing but in general OT ppl although in covenant with God through
Moses did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within
them.

Your belief that man is totally
depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling
Spirit is fantasy.

Doesn't matter how many
goodworks they still have a heart that
is wicked and
deceitful.

I don't believe
man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However,
he is

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud