Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
A reading from 1.1, Dogmatics, Word of God, p107 got me to thinking : If we attach our understanding of scripture to scripture, if we, then, canonize "scripture," we make scripture tradition instead of what God intended it to be -- His self-revelation to man. If our understanding does not pass away at our passing, it will die in time - an aspect of the consequence of the passing of time. The tradition will die - making room for another.Ir may take hundreds of years, but it will pass. But scripture will continue as time and a multitude of passing traditions have testified. "After any exegesis propounded in it, even the very best, it has to realise afresh the distinction between text and commentary and to let the text speak again without ... hindrance, so that it will experience the lordship of this free power and find in the Bible the partner or counterpart which the Church must find in it [the Bible] if it is to take the living successio apostolorum seriously." (Barth , .107) [emphasis mine]. To put it simply -- we should ever be in the hunt for an unbiased reading and rereading of the divine text.More than anything else placed in the church, the biblical record is the successor to the apostles.[And God used the Church to collect and order this Bible. That is why the historical Church should not be ignored.] If one thinks Barth did not have the highest regard for the Bible as the Bible -- it is becauseshe has not spent one minute considering his comments about same. And how does he defend the Bible as the Bible? "..the Bible is the Canon just because it is so." Remarkable. We evanglicals have to argue the Bible's validity into continued existence. Barth simply accepted it as a matter of faith. Let's send him to hell for that , shall we ?? !!! jd
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
John quoted Barth as saying: More than anything else placed in the church, the biblical record is the successor to the apostles. Fair points about Barth's respect for the Bible, but he did miss it a little with this statement, in my opinion. The apostles were and are the successors to the Biblical record, not the other way around. Matthew 11:12-13 (12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
His reference is to the 12 and with that in mind, would you not agree? jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John quoted Barth as saying: More than anything else placed in the church, the biblical record is the successor to the apostles. Fair points about Barth's respect for the Bible, but he did miss it a little with this statement, in my opinion. The apostles were and are the successors to the Biblical record, not the other way around. Matthew 11:12-13 (12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
John wrote: His reference is to the 12 and with that in mind, would you not agree? No, I still think it puts the emphasis in the wrong place. Apostles are basically doers of the Bible. The twelve would never had been if the Biblical record had not come first. We have added some of their writings to the rest of Scripture, but this only bolsters the point that the apostles are our examples concerning how we should likewise succeed the Biblical record. Very little of the Biblical record has to do with the twelve. Only 3 of the 12 apostles have given us any Scripture at all. The tendency to elevate the Scriptures above the living examples of the apostles is a mistake IMO. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John quoted Barth as saying: More than anything else placed in the church, the biblical record is the successor to the apostles. Fair points about Barth's respect for the Bible, but he did miss it a little with this statement, in my opinion. The apostles were and are the successors to the Biblical record, not the other way around. Matthew 11:12-13 (12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
cd: If one would read and study John 1: 9-it would help the conclusion of this debate. The light is now giving to ALL men and Gods laws are written in the hearts of ALL men therefore they will have no excuse for rejection of Christ nor breaking the Law-That is knowledge of God but to have salvation God must "speak" to man. Similar to there being no excuse as nature itself shows the works of God-Yet salvation is in the drawing. Same with preaching the Gospel-to some it is the power of salvation and to the foolish it is unto a harder eternal judgement. The bible states that to mock the gospel ( or the one preaching that gospel) leads to heavier chainsthrough outeternity. Brothers and Sister in Christ don't think nothing is being accomplished by our works here on TT because one way or the others accountability will be giving-as God wants some peoples sins to be to the uttermost for punishment to the uttermost. By that same token we should use extreme caution with our words-which I find myself to fall short on-and now make a renewed effort to focus on this goal. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/17/2005 12:03:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 02:49:37 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ithink I agree with this. I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) Since your thinking is not identical to scritpure, I am not sure what is meant by you with the words "through Christ" and so "I think I agree .." This is ridiculous JD, what I mean is exactly what John 14:6 says without any added anything. How much more plain can that be? I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.(John 14:17) So, unregenerated man can receive Christ without the help of the Father, he can give good gifts, he can even live a good enough life to avoid the judgment of God (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything else? No unregenerate man can not receive Christ aside from being drawn by the Father (John 6:44). The unregenerate can receive God's temporal blessings ie: it rains on both just and unjust etc. and No he can not live a good enough life to avoid the judgment. Nineveh temporarily repented remember? Later on they reneged and were destroyed anyway. Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No. Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world working in you at the same time. Double minded ppl receive nothing from God (James 1:8). This is just plain wrong, in view of scripture. No it isn't JD. Everything I am writing is exactly what scripture is saying and since the scriptures are not contradictory you need to reconcile these in your own mind. While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well. That passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man AT THE SAME TIME. ... let's not forget Romans 7:25. The man in Romans 7 wanted to do things God's way and so does the person in Eph 4:21 that is "Assuming that you have really heard Him and been taught by Him... strip yourselves of your former nature (put off and discard your old unrenewed self) which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion"- So this person has made a clear choice and is not "of two opinions or of two minds"The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. So what. When you associate John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage, you can see that there is a sense in which God is at work within us all.Old Testament writersspeak of the "still small voice within." That would be GOD.Such an explanation offers the simplest explanation ofthe fact that God draws the sinner to Christ. You mean an old testament prophet by the name of Elijah spoke of the "still small voice" - Prophets had a ministry gift anointing but in general OT ppl although in covenant with God through Moses did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. Doesn't matter how many goodworks they still have a heart that is wicked and deceitful. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Hi Dean: You write: cd: If one would read and study John 1: 9-it would help the conclusion of this debate. The light is now giving to ALL men and Gods laws are written in the hearts of ALL men therefore they will have no excuse for rejection of Christ nor breaking the Law- I don't think I can see the same conclusion from John 1:9.Dean. HereJohnwrites of his witness to the light. Why a witness if every man has this light in the form ofGod's Law written on their hearts already? Also John 1:4 tells us that men "comprehended it not" That is knowledge of God but to have salvation God must "speak" to man. Similar to there being no excuse as nature itself shows the works of God-Yet salvation is in the drawing. I do agree as per Romans 1:20 that invisible things are understood by the visible ie "creation" so all men are aware that there is a God but they refuse to seek Him and learn to know Him because they love the darkness John 3:19 so this is the condemnation. Same with preaching the Gospel-to some it is the power of salvation and to the foolish it is unto a harder eternal judgement. God may use other means at times to get someone's attention but it is primarily "the foolishness of preaching" 1 Cor 1:21 He uses to draw people to Himself through Christ. The anointing rests upon HIS Word. The bible states that to mock the gospel ( or the one preaching that gospel) leads to heavier chainsthrough outeternity. Where is thisin scripture?. At a class I've been in at our church the pastor was talking about greater rewards and greater damnation. He used one word to get these analogies I can't see it. To me this is comparable to Clinton's "it all depends what is, is" But this is just one of the things that are problematicin Reformed doctrine. Brothers and Sister in Christ don't think nothing is being accomplished by our works here on TT because one way or the others accountability will be giving-as God wants some peoples sins to be to the uttermost for punishment to the uttermost. By that same token we should use extreme caution with our words-which I find myself to fall short on-and now make a renewed effort to focus on this goal. I hear you Dean. Grace and Peace, judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/17/2005 9:19:17 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud Hi Dean: cd: Hi Sis:-) You write: cd: If one would read and study John 1: 9-it would help the conclusion of this debate. The light is now giving to ALL men and Gods laws are written in the hearts of ALL men therefore they will have no excuse for rejection of Christ nor breaking the Law- I don't think I can see the same conclusion from John 1:9.Dean. HereJohnwrites of his witness to the light. Why a witness if every man has this light in the form ofGod's Law written on their hearts already? Also John 1:4 tells us that men "comprehended it not" cd: My version says "...Darkness comprehends it not." A true reprobate will never comprehend as they have been turned over to darkness. A wittiness leads one to Christ.The Law is the schoolmaster to know we have done wrong -but the wittiness is to tell about the light. Where the law failed to save the wittiness points towards salvation. That is knowledge of God but to have salvation God must "speak" to man. Similar to there being no excuse as nature itself shows the works of God-Yet salvation is in the drawing. I do agree as per Romans 1:20 that invisible things are understood by the visible ie "creation" so all men are aware that there is a God but they refuse to seek Him and learn to know Him because they love the darkness John 3:19 so this is the condemnation. cd: Good we are in agreement:-) Same with preaching the Gospel-to some it is the power of salvation and to the foolish it is unto a harder eternal judgement. God may use other means at times to get someone's attention but it is primarily "the foolishness of preaching" 1 Cor 1:21 He uses to draw people to Himself through Christ. The anointing rests upon HIS Word. cd: Agreed. The bible states that to mock the gospel ( or the one preaching that gospel) leads to heavier chainsthrough outeternity. Where is thisin scripture?. At a class I've been in at our church the pastor was talking about greater rewards and greater damnation. He used one word to get these analogies I can't see it. To me this is comparable to Clinton's "it all depends what is, is" But this is just one of the things that are problematicin Reformed doctrine. cd: Isa 28:22 is one but there is a clearer verse in the NT that I cannot seem to find at the monment-I think this is due to my search of wording which seem at this time to bepart NASV and KJV-and is leading to difficulty. Rev:22:18 teaches a more severe punishment. Rev 20:13 every man is judged according to their works. Hebrews 10:29 ...sorer punishment..for thosewho havetrodden underfoot the Son of God (ie "sorer"means worse). Mark 6:11 Teaches for some a more tolerable judgement than for others. Brothers and Sister in Christ don't think nothing is being accomplished by our works here on TT because one way or the others accountability will be giving-as God wants some peoples sins to be to the uttermost for punishment to the uttermost. By that same token we should use extreme caution with our words-which I find myself to fall short on-and now make a renewed effort to focus on this goal. I hear you Dean. Grace and Peace, judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS. This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 06:28 Subject: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that you agree/disagree and, why? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 06:36 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS. This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 06:28 Subject: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom. If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say that God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR choices)citations appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God means are univocal (of one meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) will simply reply AMEN JUDY/GOD!l I, and I trust all other TT participants, would acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that this is ALWAYS the case. IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post then, I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once and for all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 07:13 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom. If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
You are saying that the scriptures I cite below reflect my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that if I claim to know the mind of God on this matter then I am claiming something that is above and beyond others on TT who you call my "fellow believers" Of course I disagree with you Lance because being born of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in the second Adam since before the foundation of the world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not so. There is no division in Christ. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that you agree/disagree and, why? From: Lance Muir This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS. This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Close but, no cigar, Are you claiming, through your citations pertaining to whatever issue is being discussed. to ALWAYS know the mind of God on EVERY matter? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 07:31 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud You are saying that the scriptures I cite below reflect my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that if I claim to know the mind of God on this matter then I am claiming something that is above and beyond others on TT who you call my "fellow believers" Of course I disagree with you Lance because being born of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in the second Adam since before the foundation of the world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not so. There is no division in Christ. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that you agree/disagree and, why? From: Lance Muir This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS. This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement. Judy Taylor wrote: JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Hi Terry, where would you get that idea? On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:51:49 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.Judy Taylor wrote: JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
It is quite obvious, Judy. Never on TT before have two people been so compatible. Must be the Qwanza, xmas, winter break spirit. :) Judy Taylor wrote: Hi Terry, where would you get that idea? On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:51:49 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement. Judy Taylor wrote: JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course the it is the Father who draws man. I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. Read Matt 7:11. Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Tell me what is going on in John 3:21. drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Judy -- regarding being born again: do you think this is something tht happens to a person from outside the person? Or, is new birth the experience we have when our person is aligned with the God within? jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say that God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR choices)citations appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God means are univocal (of one meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) will simply reply AMEN JUDY/GOD!l I, and I trust all other TT participants, would acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that this is ALWAYS the case. IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post then, I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once and for all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 07:13 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom. If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said. When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I can share -- I write for me, in these instances. Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that follows .without becoming a pantheist !! I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We are not involved in such activity often enough. jd -- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.Judy Taylor wrote: JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course the it is the Father who draws man. This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Read Matt 7:11. Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. Tell me what is going on in John 3:21. It's a statement about thosewho practice truth and come out into the light so that what they do may be plainly shown to be of God. drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written. To say that EVERY MAN has God working in them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking Ppl outside of Christ have the devil working in them.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:29:34 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy -- regarding being born again: do you think this is something tht happens to a person from outside the person? Or, is new birth the experience we have when our person is aligned with the God within? jd There is no God within until we are born of the Spirit JD - which is being born from above or born again. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] OR JUDY...YOU WILL!! When that which you say that God means, through always and only selecting (YOUR choices)citations appropo to the issue at hand) and that which God means are univocal (of one meaning) then, each of us (yes, including me) will simply reply AMEN JUDY/GOD!l I, and I trust all other TT participants, would acknowledge that the above is SOMETIMES the case. You appear to believe that this is ALWAYS the case. IFF 'they' (John, Bill, "G'") read this post then, I should appreciate having them say this in their own words and, once and for all, clarify this issue so that we might move on. From: Judy Taylor Well Lance, the only alternative I see is to use the verses in Romans that you like and interpret them to fit your extra Biblical doctrine - then cut the rest out. Facts are "You must be born again" to inherit God's Kingdom. If you don't think that what I wrote is God's Word then you will need to read your Bible some more Lance. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS.This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:46:01 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said. Big IF JD. I don't read Terri's comment in a positiveway, I think he is addressing something else. When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I can share -- I write for me, in these instances. Oh! Then why do you send it to the TT List? Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that follows .without becoming a pantheist !! Are you calling Israel the firstfruit of Creation? I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We are not involved in such activity often enough. jd -- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.Judy Taylor wrote: JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life. Well, ok. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course it is the Father who draws man. This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I think I agree with this. I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive. Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man. Read Matt 7:11. Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts " ?? Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. You are reaching, here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we do (ala Matt 7:11). Tell me what is going on in John 3:21. It's a statement about thosewho practice truth and come out into the light so that what they do may be plainly shown to be of God. drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. The fact of John 3:21 is that the works performed occur before we come to the light. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written. To say that EVERY MAN has God working in them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking Ppl outside of Christ have the devil working in them.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:20:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: "...be ye reconciled to God." Of course the it is the Father who draws man. This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Read Matt 7:11. Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. Tell me what is going on in John 3:21. It's a statement about thosewho practice truth and come out into the light so that what they do may be plainly shown to be of God. drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. Nothin you have quoted challenges anything I have written. To say that EVERY MAN has God working in them is delusion JD; this is New Age thinking Ppl outside of Christ have the devil working in them.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:46:01 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, if Terry is somewhat serious, this is my point as well. I see nothing in your post that challenges anything I said. Big IF JD. I don't read Terri's comment in a positiveway, I think he is addressing something else. Terry !!! What say ye?? When I write something like that, it is me thinking out loud, really !! I am reading scripture, looking up stuff, going over and over my post -- LETTING GOD WORK IN ME as I try to come to a knowledge of the faith that lies within. I don't write so that I can share -- I write for me, in these instances. Oh! Then why do you send it to the TT List? Sometimes, I really don't know. I do know that your only reason is to correct and judge. Last night, for the first time, I came to a realization of just how connected the gospel is to the firstfruit of creation and everything that follows .without becoming a pantheist !! Are you calling Israel the firstfruit of Creation? No. I was referring to "let there be light." Something evil in that ?? I would suggest to my friends that they do the same. Writing out of an apologetical concern can be a good thing. But writing and comparing notes of others who are still involved in the search for truth as revealed in the written word is, in my opinion, even better. We are not involved in such activity often enough. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
whileJC the shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, goingonly through him your idea of one way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the holy of holies likethey got the only key to the kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod himselfto changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its dualism, not biblicism On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Don't have any idea why this thing is changing colors on me. Terry Any way.Let me suggest that at some point in everyone's life, God reveals Himself and offers salvation to every individual. I say that because God is not willing that any be lost, and if it is not His will for any to be lost, then all must have at some point, the opportunity to be saved. Therefore, if God is not at work in us now, He either has been, or will be. So I somewhat agree with John's statement. God, however, does not strive with men forever. At some point, He stamps the dust off His feet and moves on. Some are then given over to a reprobate mind and are foreverlost. Others will have things enter their lives that remind them that the Father's love is such that He will welcome them home at any time, and they will then repent, so in some respect I agree with Judy, that God is not continually working in the life of everyone. Peace on earth, or at least on TT? Terry I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:03:43 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Born of the Spirit Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life. Well, ok. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: " be ye reconciled to God." Of course it is the Father who draws man. This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I think I agree with this. I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.(John 14:17) Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No. Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world working in you at the same time. Double minded ppl receive nothing from God... The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man. So now you are not only going to tell me what you believe JD - you are also going to tell me what I believe also?? Read Matt 7:11. Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts " ?? No, I saw that part but the ones He gives the good gifts to are those who ask He does not just pour spiritual gifts all over the disinterested even if it does rain on both just and unjust. The temporal blessings are just that. Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. You are reaching, here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we do (ala Matt 7:11). Matt 7:11 is a scripture that is used to encourage people to seek the Baptism in the Holy Spirit but these people are already born again believers. This does not prove the unbelieve has God working in him or anything like that.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
I'm not talking about any such nonsense G. - The dualism is all in your own head along with all the other isms. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:00:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: whileJC the shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, goingonly through him your idea of one way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the holy of holies likethey got the only key to the kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod himselfto changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its dualism, not biblicism On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/16/2005 7:31:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud I'm not talking about any such nonsense G. - The dualism is all in your own head along with all the other isms. cd: :-) On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:00:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: whileJC the shepard-kinginformsus'my sheep hear my voice' the bible informs of him, informsthe sheep going only to the Father, goingonly through him your idea of one way? no such thing: arrogantly misrepresenting JC,youpresenttwo antithetical 'ways', below--like oil and water, another cultural power play;hyper-palsentering the holy of holies likethey got the only key to the kingdomjusttogleefullyinstructGod himselfto changethe locks and bar the doors (for them)--its dualism, not biblicism On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:03:43 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being Born of the Spirit Each of us plays a role in the reviving ontology we call salvation. Yes. Our part is to repent and turn from our old conversation in this world or to ignore/reject the offer of eternal life. Well, ok. II Cor 5:20 has Paul encouraging the Corinthians this wise: " be ye reconciled to God." Of course it is the Father who draws man. This only happens one way which is through Christ who is the only way to the Father. I think I agree with this. I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) Since your thinking is not identical to scritpure, I am not sure what is meant by you with the words "through Christ" and so "I think I agree .." I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.(John 14:17) So, unregenerated man can receive Christ without the help of the Father, he can give good gifts, he can even live a good enough life to avoid the judgment of God (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything else? Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No. Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world working in you at the same time. Double minded ppl receive nothing from God... This is just plain wrong, in view of scripture. While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well. That passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man AT THE SAME TIME. ... let's not forget Romans 7:25. The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. So what. When you associate John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage, you can see that there is a sense in which God is at work within us all.Old Testament writersspeak of the "still small voice within." That would be GOD.Such an explanation offers the simplest explanation ofthe fact that God draws the sinner to Christ. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God. John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men. Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man. So now you are not only going to tell me what you believe JD - you are also going to tell me what I believe also?? Its a tough job, but someone has to do it. Look, Judy. You believe man is born a sinner. You believe that no one can do good apart from the influence of the indwelling. You don't even think we can understand scripture without some sort of divination. THAT IS BY DEFINITION "total depravity" in my book. Read Matt 7:11. Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit. Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts " ?? No, I saw that part but the ones He gives the good gifts to are those who ask He does not just pour spiritual gifts all over the disinterested even if it does rain on both just and unjust. The temporal blessings are just that.You are talking about what He does and I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE EVIL ONES can do -- give gifts that are good !!! Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance, the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart. You are reaching, here. What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity." Is the giving of good gifts something we do (ala Matt 7:11). Matt 7:11 is a scripture that is used to
RE: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Lance, you need to stop mocking people who believe the plain unvarnished scriptures, or one day you will regret it before the Lord. Humble yourself now, or you will be humbled later. Just for your best, iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 6:39 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud Close but, no cigar, Are you claiming, through your citations pertaining to whatever issue is being discussed. to ALWAYS know the mind of God on EVERY matter? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 16, 2005 07:31 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud You are saying that the scriptures I cite below reflect my apprehension of what God says rather than His and that if I claim to know the mind of God on this matter then I am claiming something that is above and beyond others on TT who you call my fellow believers Of course I disagree with you Lance because being born of the Spiritis not my idea; it is God's provision in the second Adam since before the foundation of the world. As for being above or beyond fellow believers? Not so. There is no division in Christ. On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:44:38 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just one time, please. Will you say back to me what YOU BELIEVE MY MEANING TO BE in what I've just said. Thereafter, tell me that you agree/disagree and, why? From: Lance Muir This (the citations below) are Judy's choices oF Scriptures which elucidate Judy's apprehension of what God has to say about these matters. UNLESS YOU CLAIM A LEADING OF THE SPIRIT ABOVE AND BEYOND YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS (do you?) THEN, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THUS. This response is to your saying 'AT LEAST THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT'. ATY Judy! (According to you, Judy!) From: Judy Taylor JD And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! We have no power to attach ourselves to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the engrafted Word which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it. In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him as God and hold the truth in unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened. So where would you get the idea that God is at workin those who have never surrendered toChrist? These peoplehave a different spirit at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2) which is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. At least this is what God says about it. judyt He that says I know Him and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
maybe current conservativeculture's root level dualistic tendencyalters the word 'word' in Jamesto 'Word'--apparently your dualism requires it, too, butitain't written that way, M'am, e.g.,: James 1:21(King James Version) ..receive with meekness the engrafted word.. your innovative private rendering of the biblereinforces the doctrinal demand you place squarely upon it--its a manipulative approach to God, too,M'am, as ugly as any other counterfeiter's, partic the inability/unwillingness toanalyze any ofyour own presuppostions On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:28:48 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || only come to Christ one way..by being drawn by the Father through the Spirit by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul as we choose to walk in it.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
myth (that's a dangerous platitude whilethere is division in your own theology fromyour own mind--your two manufactured approaches to salvation joined at the hip todaycommunicate divergent theories of'Christ') On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:34:50 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is no division in Christ.
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 02:49:37 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ithink I agree with this. I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) Since your thinking is not identical to scritpure, I am not sure what is meant by you with the words "through Christ" and so "I think I agree .." This is ridiculous JD, what I mean is exactly what John 14:6 says without any added anything. How much more plain can that be? I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men. God is at work in us all. But we still have choices, which you you, as well. So I am not sure why you wrote the above. Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.(John 14:17) So, unregenerated man can receive Christ without the help of the Father, he can give good gifts, he can even live a good enough life to avoid the judgment of God (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything else? No unregenerate man can not receive Christ aside from being drawn by the Father (John 6:44). The unregenerate can receive God's temporal blessings ie: it rains on both just and unjust etc. and No he can not live a good enough life to avoid the judgment. Nineveh temporarily repented remember? Later on they reneged and were destroyed anyway. Yes He is. No man comes to the son except the Father draws him. God is concerned that all come to Christ. I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13. Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person? No. Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2? You can't have God and the spirit of this world working in you at the same time. Double minded ppl receive nothing from God (James 1:8). This is just plain wrong, in view of scripture. No it isn't JD. Everything I am writing is exactly what scripture is saying and since the scriptures are not contradictory you need to reconcile these in your own mind. While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well. That passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man AT THE SAME TIME. ... let's not forget Romans 7:25. The man in Romans 7 wanted to do things God's way and so does the person in Eph 4:21 that is "Assuming that you have really heard Him and been taught by Him... strip yourselves of your former nature (put off and discard your old unrenewed self) which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion"- So this person has made a clear choice and is not "of two opinions or of two minds"The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. So what. When you associate John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage, you can see that there is a sense in which God is at work within us all.Old Testament writersspeak of the "still small voice within." That would be GOD.Such an explanation offers the simplest explanation ofthe fact that God draws the sinner to Christ. You mean an old testament prophet by the name of Elijah spoke of the "still small voice" - Prophets had a ministry gift anointing but in general OT ppl although in covenant with God through Moses did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy. Doesn't matter how many goodworks they still have a heart that is wicked and deceitful. I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
Gary do you ever get weary from all this psychobabble? On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:14:44 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (that's a dangerous platitude whilethere is division in your own theology fromyour own mind--your two manufactured approaches to salvation joined at the hip todaycommunicate divergent theories of'Christ') On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:34:50 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is no division in Christ. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud
In addition to the following and previously posted comments - I was reading some scripture this evening that has associated value: 1. The fatherhood of God is implicit in old testament scriptures as He relates to the chosen people -- Exodus 4:22 Then you will say to Pharaoh: This is what the Lord says: Israel is My firstborn son.God is never addressed as Father in Old Testamenttimes because He is not a personal God, as yet - His is a national consideration and only a few know Him ina personal way. That being said, however, it is clear that He has always played the role of "father" and, 2. Isreal is a type of Christ in that it is His firstborn son. The difference between the two (Christ and Isreal) is pronounced. The implied theology ties the Israel of God beginning with Adam to the Christ. The revealed mystery of it all is that in Christ, redemption is offered to all of mankind. 3. A third point is that the suffering of Christ was predetermined before the beginnings of the world. I , for one, have relegated this thought to the Great Spiritual Boneyard in the Sky,seeing only the preknowledge of God and nothing more. But, if redemption was before man -- and there is nothing before man except God, should we not conclude that redemption is a part of the essence of God and that the extension of the redemptive actis not aperformance of God so much as it is an _expression_ God, Himself. Andso the triune God is expressed in eternal community and the economy of God is seen in redemption. How God is , is one thing. How God expresses Himself is another. Redemption, then, should not be considered in terms of the eventuality of the passing time, but as an _expression_ of who God is. It is not that God made man, and eventually saved him. Rather, it is that God is redemptive in nature and , beginning with the first light of creation, pursues His redemptiveness. Creation, then, would be a firstfruit of a Redemptive God and personal sacrifice would be the highest _expression_ of that nature. And the final scene -- the resurrection of the elect unto Himself (Calvinism is not in view, here) is the only remaining _expression_ of God's true nature Lifein the Spirit is the dawning of rersurrected life -- eternal life with Him. And all of it has to do with His very nature. All of it is because of His very nature. And so it is, that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at work within him both to will and to accomplish His pleasure. It is all about God. We can either attach ourselves to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only reality that is and die. What a choice !! jd Probably no interest on this one, but I'll throw it out there anyway. Isreal claims ancestrythrough Abraham to God. But there wasno Israel from thebeginning of earth's history to around 1600 BC or so. The Egyptians had their own culture, religion and mythology. The Jews really had no national identity at all. If if if the Egyptians had incorporated these people into their society in the early years, there would have been no Israel of God --- or, at the very least, Egyptian mythology and culture would have survived in Israel. But, the very fact of continued bondage IMO created an "us versus them" psychology that prevented Israel from being lost in the sea of Egyptian nuance. Their escape from Egypt was that of a people needing Divine help at the most basic levels of national existence. . They had no law or national structure. Their God of the past 400 years (of bondage) was a God of tradition and little more. We are talking about 2 to 3 million people (so some assert) leaving Egypt with absolutely no where to go, no way to survive militarily , a culture of bondage and defeat as the National Story, And when they got to the Red Sea, reality hit them between the eyes. This defeatist attitude becomes a part of their tradition and , perhaps, is an aspect of their repeated rebellion. It is almost as if they are the Divine Stepchild and they really don'tcare forthisidentiy. Does this have anything to do with fact that do not approach God as "Father God" ?? And what is Moses doing with the writing of Genesis if not collecting the oral traditions in an effort at presenting Iseal (this brandnew nation) with a history that it can claim as its own??? Perhaps he begins with the Beginning because this was the perfect place to start. .. contrasting the Egyptian mythologies of the beginnings of man with an account of a sovereign God and His creation. These Jews, freah out of Egypt, most definitely knew of the Egyptian stories. The contrast would have been startling. Whatever. jd