Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
I see this as a model engagement. It airs out differences while continuing to 'embrace' one another as persons in relation. My thanks to Slade and Dave. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 00:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Slade Henson wrote: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used?DAVEH: I am saddened by such, Slade. But I am not offended by it. From experience, I've learned to expect it, but it does surprise me that after being here for 5 years now, I would continue to be on the receiving end of it from some of my TT friends. In a sense, I prefer that there be no ad hominen rules apply to those who want to speak their mind to me. It bothers me to think that others can't be up front when they talk to me. If they think ill of me, I'd prefer they vocalize it so I can try to mend the broken fence. Failing that, I'll try to find another way to mitigate the situation. On the other hand, if everybody is afraid to bare their souls to me, I fear the hate that will fester will be far more destructive in the endto the one harboring such feelings. As you know.I've got a thick skin and am not smart enough to know when somebody is really out to do me harm. Somost ill phrased comments tend to bounce off without doing much interior damage. FurthermoreI'm getting too old to raise my blood pressure simply over social misbehavior. Also, I learned many, many years ago that an angry dog will not bite when you stare them in the face. It is only when you turn your back on them to run that they will nip you in the butt. (Hope that doesn't draw a TT reprimand! :-) ) Sowhen somebody is airing out their grievances against Mormons, it allows me to face their accusations head on, which to me is the safest place to be in such a situation. As I see it, if their true sentiments simmer within for a long time, eventually their soul will boil over in a situation that becomes difficult to control. So, in summary.Go easy with reprimands to those who view me as a problem in TT and feel the need to express their true feelings. Unless it creates a problem for you to dispense discipline unevenly, allow them to let their steam blow off harmlessly and I'll let you know if the heat becomes unbearable for me. The reason I ask is this: I am not a Mormon,DAVEH: Hmm..that can be corrected, Slade! ;-) as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism,DAVEH: No Slade, IMHO I think you are wrong on that. I don't want to psychoanalyze Kevin publicly in TT, so it is best if I don't continue along that line. it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not aproper method of evangelism.DAVEH: I agree. But from my limited experience, it seems to be the SOP for some street preachers. That's why I am so curious about why some of them go to the lengths they do in decrying the LDS Church during Conference time in SLC twice a year. IF they really understood the Mormon mentality, I can't believe they would use such tactics to try to convert us away from Mormonism. What they do there only drives us closer together, rather than apart. That's why I said above that I really don't think some TTers are trying to embarrass me in hopes of converting me. Sowhy do they do it, you may ask? BrieflyI think it is a source of empowerment. A lot could be said about it, but it would go beyond the scope of this thread. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. DAVEH: Long before you arrived on TT, there were others who tried unsuccessfully to do that. IF most all TTers are uncomfortable with me and really want me to leave, I'll without hesitation unsubscribe, as I don't want to be an aggravation to most of you folks or give Mormonism a black eye on my behalf by staying beyond my welcome. However.I suspect my detractors would somewhat miss me if I were to leave. :-) Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary.DAVEH: I prefer to keep most stuff out in the open. If any TTers think I'm crying to the moderators behind their backsit ain't so. Nor will it happen in the future. If I've got a beef with anybody on TT, I'll try to diffuse the situation openly and in public. I love you DAVEH: Thanx Slade. I appreciate you saying that. and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth,DAVEH:
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
"The Son of God is still incarnate, though now incarnate as a risen and glorious man. Jesus, was gloriously raised from the dead as a complete and entire man--body and soul." T. Weinandy, 'Jesus Christ', Our Sunday Visitor, 2003 - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 01:57 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please DAVEH: Kevin..It is difficult for me to follow all you've been posting today. Do you really want to have a discussion, or are you just posting a bunch of stuff for the fun of it? As I see it, you want to discuss LDS related things with me from the nature (in general) of your questions. You've got a few question marks and lots of statements, some of which blend into other stuff posted by Blaine, Slade, Perry and me, as far as I can see. In shortI have a lot of trouble keeping up with you. Furthermore, you seem to just ignore the questions already on the board. I asked you a few days ago about whether or not you think Jesus has a physical body of flesh and bone today, yet I haven't seen your answer on that yet. Since it pertains to some of what you posted below, it seems prudent that we get that question out of the way before we try to proceed to some of these others.don't you agree? As you probably know...I believe Jesus currently is a God and possesses a spirit body clothed with a physical body of flesh and bone. What do you believe about it, Kevin??? Once you answer that, then can you ask me just one or two questions with which we can stay on track? I think that will lead to a more meaningful discussionIF that is your intent. If instead, you wish to just berate my beliefsthen continuing with this wild assortment of accusations will not benefit either of us. The other day, you gave me your definition of Christian, and I thought that might be an indicator that we could have some meaningful exchanges in the future. I hope that is your goal toobut I'm not too sure. SoWhere do you want to go from here, Kevin? If intend to encourage me to lurk for awhilethe choice is yours+++DAVEH: Therein is the problem, Perry. You aren't misleading me.you are misleading others who believe your sources are accurate Who's misleading who? Please provide an example of inaccuracy or one bad source Please provide some accurate sources. Are the LDS Standard works accurate? LDS Teaching manuals at www.lds.org? By the way Joe said: There are three gods: theFather, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 370, 372 "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS. Joseph Smith. Documentary History of the Church. 6:474, June 16, 1844 There are many gods, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163. There is a mother god, Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443 NO does not make me MEAN It is the LDS Prophets who claim to speak as the "mouth of God" Who say that DaveH is not a true Mormon. He must sustain them or else this is his fate as per the LDS leadership. It is they who define Mormonism.Dave defines daveISMKevin Deegan wrote: So you sustain the Prophet in all things?Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He's already said he doesn't believe EVERYTHING his church may have as doctrine.DAVEH: ??? Are you referring to me, Kevin? When did I say I didn't believe EVERYTHING his church may have as doctrine? I do not recall saying that at all. You are the second TTer to say such, and I prefer that you do not perpetrate the myth. IF I said it, please quote where I did so. Otherwise.please do not attribute things I said that I didn't. FTR..At the moment, I can't think of anything LDS theology teaches that I do not believe. And, if there has been anything (LDS) in the past I've not accepted, I cannot remember what it was. SoIF I said suchjog my memory, Kevin. Otherwise, I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Thank you. So he is Not a Christian and now we find out he is not Everything a Mormon ought to be. I guess that puts him in Limbo He is not Christian he is not Mormon He pratcies DaveISM!DAVEH: If this is the logic you prefer to use to win my allegiance to your way of thinking, Kevin, you may be overestimating my
RE: [TruthTalk] Good News!
Helps clarify between John the Dunker and John the Sprinkler. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.33To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!Slade Henson wrote: I wish I could tell you what PTillich's thoughts are, but I don't know who s/he is. The root of my question comes from this basic premise: it'smy understanding that Messiah and the Immerser said, "Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand" and I think they meant it. It was there for the "taking." -- slade"Immerser". I like that term. Your idea, or is that the original language term?Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members
Sorry. I misspoke. There are teaching outlines available. --slade -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 22.53Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members Okaywhich thingy do I click on for the concordance??? Izzy From: Slade HensonSent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:25 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members http://www.immanuelhomepage.org/Downloads.html -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.01Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members Could you kindly forward the exact link to the esword.com location which you use for a concordance? I get lost when I look for it at esword.com. Thanks, Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
Terry, I see YOU as a disciple of Jesus. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 17, 2005 14:13 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! Lance Muir wrote: Sectarianism DOES INDEED EXIST ON TT!! Please, someone correct either myself or David on this. Further, Linda does indeed say what amounts to, I am of David. (Linda, please illustrate for us with what frequency you 'amen' David (WOW that was an awesome post, David!) Sorry David, but ya gots at least one disciple. Please stand corrected , brother Lance. I have great respect for David Miller. I have learned much from him. He is my brother and I love him. Often we are in agreement. In my opinion, that does not make me his diciple. It makes us brothers and friends. That is enough. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
The good priest appears to be 'missing a part' Lance. No man is complete and entire without a spirit and we know Jesus had one - remember Luke 23:46? He didn't say "Father into your hands I commend my body/soul" did he?jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:26:00 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "The Son of God is still incarnate, though now incarnate as a risen and glorious man. Jesus, was gloriously raised from the dead as a complete and entire man--body and soul." T. Weinandy, 'Jesus Christ', Our Sunday Visitor, 2003 From: Dave Hansen DAVEH: Kevin..It is difficult for me to follow all you've been posting today. Do you really want to have a discussion, or are you just posting a bunch of stuff for the fun of it? As I see it, you want to discuss LDS related things with me from the nature (in general) of your questions. You've got a few question marks and lots of statements, some of which blend into other stuff posted by Blaine, Slade, Perry and me, as far as I can see. In shortI have a lot of trouble keeping up with you. Furthermore, you seem to just ignore the questions already on the board. I asked you a few days ago about whether or not you think Jesus has a physical body of flesh and bone today, yet I haven't seen your answer on that yet. Since it pertains to some of what you posted below, it seems prudent that we get that question out of the way before we try to proceed to some of these others.don't you agree? As you probably know...I believe Jesus currently is a God and possesses a spirit body clothed with a physical body of flesh and bone. What do you believe about it, Kevin??? Once you answer that, then can you ask me just one or two questions with which we can stay on track? I think that will lead to a more meaningful discussionIF that is your intent. If instead, you wish to just berate my beliefsthen continuing with this wild assortment of accusations will not benefit either of us. The other day, you gave me your definition of Christian, and I thought that might be an indicator that we could have some meaningful exchanges in the future. I hope that is your goal toobut I'm not too sure. SoWhere do you want to go from here, Kevin? If intend to encourage me to lurk for awhilethe choice is yours+++DAVEH: Therein is the problem, Perry. You aren't misleading me.you are misleading others who believe your sources are accurate Who's misleading who? Please provide an example of inaccuracy or one bad source Please provide some accurate sources. Are the LDS Standard works accurate? LDS Teaching manuals at www.lds.org? By the way Joe said: There are three gods: theFather, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 370, 372 "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS. Joseph Smith. Documentary History of the Church. 6:474, June 16, 1844 There are many gods, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163. There is a mother god, Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443 NO does not make me MEAN It is the LDS Prophets who claim to speak as the "mouth of God" Who say that DaveH is not a true Mormon. He must sustain them or else this is his fate as per the LDS leadership. It is they who define Mormonism.Dave defines daveISMKevin Deegan wrote: So you sustain the Prophet in all things?Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He's already said he doesn't believe EVERYTHING his church may have as doctrine.DAVEH: ??? Are you referring to me, Kevin? When did I say I didn't believe EVERYTHING his church may have as doctrine? I do not recall saying that at all. You are the second TTer to say such, and I prefer that you do not perpetrate the myth. IF I said it, please quote where I did so. Otherwise.please do not attribute things I said that I didn't. FTR..At the moment, I can't think of anything LDS theology teaches that I do not believe. And, if there has been anything (LDS) in the past I've not accepted, I cannot remember what it was. SoIF I said suchjog my memory, Kevin. Otherwise, I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Thank you. So he is Not a Christian and now we find
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
I don't know what you mean about 'maturity'John - I do know this to be the context for the wordperfect in some other places but in 1 Cor 13:10'complete' would be better. We can know it refers to Christ rather than the Bible because of the setting ie: "Love never fails, now we see through a glass darkly, then face to face. Now I know in part - then I shall know as I am known" Vs.12 This speaks to me of the second coming. judyt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:53:58 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:31:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:What scripture? *Please don't say "when that which is perfect has come" because that which is perfect isChrist Himself and He has yet to come. *This is clearly speaking of maturity -- that is if immediate context means anything at all.J
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
Hearsay, hearsay, hearsay beware!! On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:51:58 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:19:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: yet the theory of it you embrac/d, publically, is Wesley's view On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:11:44 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I enjoy God's Word ..This is Judy's way of saying "yes" G. J
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
We don't want this fear cast out, this is the only kind of fear that is acceptable with God. It is the kind that brings blessing rather than torment. Perfect love casts out the kind of fear that is accompanied by torment. All kinds of phobias, nightmares etc. On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:50:36 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:14:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I enjoy God's Word - and learning the fear of the Lord is profitable all around:The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life Prov 14:27The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom Prov 9:10The fear of the Lord will prolong your days Prov 10:27The fear of the Lord is to hate evil Prov 8:13 (so one can speak as the oracles of God)A good starting point. But don't leave out "mature love casts out fear."J
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.sladeI am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D SmithsonThe Webbmeister
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 06.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.sladeI am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 06:27 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D SmithsonThe Webbmeister
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Thank you for those thoughts Lance. I use "from what I understand" in this instance because I am dealing with ppl in different stages of spiritual growth who may not see things as I see them. However, I do believe in such a thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is a right and a wrong, a good and an evil. Everything is not "subjective" - Paul the apostle told the people at Corinth the most wicked city in the known world to "awake to righteousness and sin not" - Is this just a play onwords? Was he telling them to do something that was impossible? If the Corinthians were able to do this don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller? You are wrong about every believer consciously and actively sinning daily in thought, word, and deed; if this is what is going on then these people (even those who profess to be following Christ) are deceived ppl who are walking in unbelief. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:49:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D SmithsonThe Webbmeister
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
Thought you all might find this interesting...I like to go to literal, word for word translations. I have found it helps alot... Quotedfrom The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha: Hisgalus (The Revelation) Perek Yod Beit (Chapter 12) v. 4 And the tail of him drags down a third of the kokhavim (stars) of Shomayim (heaven) and threw them to ha'aretz (the earth), and the Dragon NACHASH (snake) was standing before the ISHA (woman) who was about to give birth, that when she gives birth to the YELED (Child) Seems to me it's literally stars that are thrown down from heaven. Kay
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Jt asks:'don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller?' NO I DO NOT! However, it could well be that the text, here and elsewhere, yourself, and David Miller are in possession of an 'objective truth' that eludes me. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 07:22 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Thank you for those thoughts Lance. I use "from what I understand" in this instance because I am dealing with ppl in different stages of spiritual growth who may not see things as I see them. However, I do believe in such a thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is a right and a wrong, a good and an evil. Everything is not "subjective" - Paul the apostle told the people at Corinth the most wicked city in the known world to "awake to righteousness and sin not" - Is this just a play onwords? Was he telling them to do something that was impossible? If the Corinthians were able to do this don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller? You are wrong about every believer consciously and actively sinning daily in thought, word, and deed; if this is what is going on then these people (even those who profess to be following Christ) are deceived ppl who are walking in unbelief. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:49:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D SmithsonThe Webbmeister
RE: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 06.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please The good priest appears to be 'missing a part' Lance. No man is complete and entire without a spirit and we know Jesus had one - remember Luke 23:46? He didn't say "Father into your hands I commend my body/soul" did he?jt
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:45:57 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.sladeI am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
Thanks Kay, Got to go for a while - y'all behave while I'm gone :) See ya later... On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:44:59 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 06.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please The good priest appears to be 'missing a part' Lance. No man is complete and entire without a spirit and we know Jesus had one - remember Luke 23:46? He didn't say "Father into your hands I commend my body/soul" did he?jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
FWIW Lance, My belief is thatyou are in a time warp, stuck in your cosmic incarnation while DavidM, myself and others have moved on to the resurrection. It is the power that emanates from the resurrection that enables a believer to be free from sin past, the power of sin present, and the future consequence for sin. This is not just static theology - it's a living way that needs to be walked in. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:34:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt asks:'don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller?' NO I DO NOT! However, it could well be that the text, here and elsewhere, yourself, and David Miller are in possession of an 'objective truth' that eludes me. From: Judy Taylor Thank you for those thoughts Lance. I use "from what I understand" in this instance because I am dealing with ppl in different stages of spiritual growth who may not see things as I see them. However, I do believe in such a thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is a right and a wrong, a good and an evil. Everything is not "subjective" - Paul the apostle told the people at Corinth the most wicked city in the known world to "awake to righteousness and sin not" - Is this just a play onwords? Was he telling them to do something that was impossible? If the Corinthians were able to do this don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller? You are wrong about every believer consciously and actively sinning daily in thought, word, and deed; if this is what is going on then these people (even those who profess to be following Christ) are deceived ppl who are walking in unbelief. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:49:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D SmithsonThe Webbmeister
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
A couple of questions for the purpose of clarification, please: 1. What does the _expression_ 'cosmic incarnation' mean? If you don't know then, why use it? 2. As we 'speak', do you consider yourself to be completely free of sin in thought, word and deed? 3a. I think you make a good point with respect to 'resurrection power' but, I'd rather speak of the ongoing mediatorial work of the ascended Christ via the book of Hebrews.However, does either of these provide the REALITY as opposed to the POSSIBILITY of living a life ENTIRELY FREE OF SIN IN THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED? 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity. thanks, Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 07:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything FWIW Lance, My belief is thatyou are in a time warp, stuck in your cosmic incarnation while DavidM, myself and others have moved on to the resurrection. It is the power that emanates from the resurrection that enables a believer to be free from sin past, the power of sin present, and the future consequence for sin. This is not just static theology - it's a living way that needs to be walked in. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:34:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt asks:'don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller?' NO I DO NOT! However, it could well be that the text, here and elsewhere, yourself, and David Miller are in possession of an 'objective truth' that eludes me. From: Judy Taylor Thank you for those thoughts Lance. I use "from what I understand" in this instance because I am dealing with ppl in different stages of spiritual growth who may not see things as I see them. However, I do believe in such a thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is a right and a wrong, a good and an evil. Everything is not "subjective" - Paul the apostle told the people at Corinth the most wicked city in the known world to "awake to righteousness and sin not" - Is this just a play onwords? Was he telling them to do something that was impossible? If the Corinthians were able to do this don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller? You are wrong about every believer consciously and actively sinning daily in thought, word, and deed; if this is what is going on then these people (even those who profess to be following Christ) are deceived ppl who are walking in unbelief. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:49:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to sayhe still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this:David Miller,. do you
RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members
Click here: http://www.e-sword.net/files/setup752.exe From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:53 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members Okaywhich thingy do I click on for the concordance??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:25 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members http://www.immanuelhomepage.org/Downloads.html -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.01 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members Could you kindly forward the exact link to the esword.com location which you use for a concordance? I get lost when I look for it at esword.com. Thanks, Izzy --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
Judy wrote: Please don't say when that which is perfect has come because that which is perfect is Christ Himself and He has yet to come. * John wrote: This is clearly speaking of maturity -- that is if immediate context means anything at all. Not only context supports what you are saying, John, but the Greek word translated perfect is neuter, so it cannot specifically refer to Jesus Christ. I don't disagree with the idea that it refers to the time of the resurrection, when Christ returns, but to say that it refers to Christ Himself is a setup for falsification from the cessationists when they exegete the Greek language here. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Thanks for a right attitude of not being easily offended, DaveHwe certainly cant fault you there, as it is exemplary. (FYI, this does NOT make me your disciple. J ) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Slade Henson wrote: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term The average Mormon was used? DAVEH: I am saddened by such, Slade. But I am not offended by it. From experience, I've learned to expect it, but it does surprise me that after being here for 5 years now, I would continue to be on the receiving end of it from some of my TT friends. In a sense, I prefer that there be no ad hominen rules apply to those who want to speak their mind to me. It bothers me to think that others can't be up front when they talk to me. If they think ill of me, I'd prefer they vocalize it so I can try to mend the broken fence. Failing that, I'll try to find another way to mitigate the situation. On the other hand, if everybody is afraid to bare their souls to me, I fear the hate that will fester will be far more destructive in the endto the one harboring such feelings. As you know.I've got a thick skin and am not smart enough to know when somebody is really out to do me harm. Somost ill phrased comments tend to bounce off without doing much interior damage. FurthermoreI'm getting too old to raise my blood pressure simply over social misbehavior. Also, I learned many, many years ago that an angry dog will not bite when you stare them in the face. It is only when you turn your back on them to run that they will nip you in the butt. (Hope that doesn't draw a TT reprimand! :-) ) Sowhen somebody is airing out their grievances against Mormons, it allows me to face their accusations head on, which to me is the safest place to be in such a situation. As I see it, if their true sentiments simmer within for a long time, eventually their soul will boil over in a situation that becomes difficult to control. So, in summary.Go easy with reprimands to those who view me as a problem in TT and feel the need to express their true feelings. Unless it creates a problem for you to dispense discipline unevenly, allow them to let their steam blow off harmlessly and I'll let you know if the heat becomes unbearable for me.
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
Lance Muir wrote: Terry, I see YOU as a disciple of Jesus. === Thank you Lance. That is very important to me. I wish that everyone could see that, but I am afraid that it shows so seldom that most miss it when it happens. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Good News!
It seems to me that the only parts that get saved are the parts that get wet. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Good News! Helps clarify between John the Dunker and John the Sprinkler. -- slade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.33 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! Slade Henson wrote: I wish I could tell you what PTillich's thoughts are, but I don't know who s/he is. The root of my question comes from this basic premise: it'smy understanding that Messiah and the Immerser said, Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand and I think they meant it. It was there for the taking. -- slade Immerser. I like that term. Your idea, or is that the original language term? Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Personally, I think it wouldnt be real TT if we didnt have occasional outbreaks of Kevin/Perry/Hansen feathers flying. Kinda makes it feel like home. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term The average Mormon was used? The reason I ask is this: I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to convert you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all. slade I am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
That is the point in contentionis it not? Izzy 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every believer/non-believer in the cosmos.
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
I see the smilen face and assume you are joking. Tell me you are joking . . . Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:31 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Good News! It seems to me that the only parts that get saved are the parts that get wet. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Good News! Helps clarify between John the Dunker and John the Sprinkler. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.33To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! Slade Henson wrote: I wish I could tell you what PTillich's thoughts are, but I don't know who s/he is. The root of my question comes from this basic premise: it'smy understanding that Messiah and the Immerser said, "Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand" and I think they meant it. It was there for the "taking." -- slade "Immerser". I like that term. Your idea, or is that the original language term?Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
Thought you all might find this interesting...I like to go to literal, word for word translations. I have found it helps alot... Quotedfrom The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha: Hisgalus (The Revelation) Perek Yod Beit (Chapter 12) v. 4 And the tail of him drags down a third of the kokhavim (stars) of Shomayim (heaven) and threw them to ha'aretz (the earth), and the Dragon NACHASH (snake) was standing before the ISHA (woman) who was about to give birth, that when she gives birth to the YELED (Child) Seems to me it's literally stars that are thrown down from heaven. Kay By a literal dragon/snake? I think not. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
Slade Henson wrote: The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay === On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. I don't dwell on stuff like this much, but seems to me that if we all get glorified bodies and we all get to eat at the feast, it would be a shame for Jesus not to have a stomach too. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
I enjoy God's Word - and learning the fear of the Lord is profitable all around: The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life Prov 14:27 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom Prov 9:10 The fear of the Lord will prolong your days Prov 10:27 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil Prov 8:13 (so one can speak as the oracles of God) A good starting point. But don't leave out mature love casts out fear. J John, are you saying that you think a mature Believer does not fear God in the Biblical sense? I believe that we all either walk in the fear of God OR in the fear of Man. The former leads to righteousness; the latter leads to sin. How do you see it? Izzy Prov 29:25 The fear of man brings a snare,But he who trusts in the LORD will be exalted. Deut 6:13 You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. -
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Close but no cigar! However, if there were a 'cigar' you would be 'one of us' would you? IFF you understand David's meaning (I don't) please let us mortals if your life experience (sinlessness, I think) is identical to his. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 09:16 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller.
RE: [TruthTalk] Good News!
I respectfully disagree, Terry. Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:21 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! Lance Muir wrote: Terry, I see YOU as a disciple of Jesus. === Thank you Lance. That is very important to me. I wish that everyone could see that, but I am afraid that it shows so seldom that most miss it when it happens. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Good News!
Im a believer in going all the way on a good thingy. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:40 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! I see the smilen face and assume you are joking. Tell me you are joking . . . Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:31 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Good News! It seems to me that the only parts that get saved are the parts that get wet. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Good News! Helps clarify between John the Dunker and John the Sprinkler. -- slade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Monday, 17 January, 2005 21.33 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News! Slade Henson wrote: I wish I could tell you what PTillich's thoughts are, but I don't know who s/he is. The root of my question comes from this basic premise: it'smy understanding that Messiah and the Immerser said, Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand and I think they meant it. It was there for the taking. -- slade Immerser. I like that term. Your idea, or is that the original language term? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Lance Muir wrote: Close but no cigar! However, if there were a 'cigar' you would be 'one of us' would you? IFF you understand David's meaning (I don't) please let us mortals if your life experience (sinlessness, I think) is identical to his. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 09:16 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller. == We could all chip in and hire someone to follow David around until they catch him sinning, but if he doesn't sin then we might all go broke. Probably better (and cheaper) to take him at his word . Taking him at his word costs nothing. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
== We could all chip in and hire someone to follow David around until they catch him sinning, but if he doesn't sin then we might all go broke. Probably better (and cheaper) to take him at his word . Taking him at his word costs nothing. Terry -- Terry, you are a perfect example of the pure wisdom of the Spirit. J Izzy (PS Which is the opposite of the wisdom of the world.)
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
So, you also read David as claiming sinlessness in word, deed and thought? That being the case, you make a good point, Terry. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 08:44 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Lance Muir wrote: Close but no cigar! However, if there were a 'cigar' you would be 'one of us' would you? IFF you understand David's meaning (I don't) please let us mortals if your life experience (sinlessness, I think) is identical to his. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 09:16 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller. == We could all chip in and hire someone to follow David around until they catch him sinning, but if he doesn't sin then we might all go broke. Probably better (and cheaper) to take him at his word . Taking him at his word costs nothing. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
DAVEH: Soas I'm understanding this, Protestantism teaches that Jesus' (who is God) spirit is now clothed in a body of flesh and bonesis that correct? I will be interested to hear if Kevin agrees, as he seems to be very critical that I believe God consists of a physical being. ButI don't want to put words in his mouth, so what do you believe, Kevin? Do you believe God has a physical body as well? Lance also wrote: "The Son of God is still incarnate, though now incarnate as a risen and glorious man. Jesus, was gloriously raised from the dead as a complete and entire man--body and soul." T. Weinandy, 'Jesus Christ', Our Sunday Visitor, 2003 Terry Clifton wrote: Slade Henson wrote: The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay === On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. I don't dwell on stuff like this much, but seems to me that if we all get glorified bodies and we all get to eat at the feast, it would be a shame for Jesus not to have a stomach too. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Maturity
John wrote: Our definitions for sin are different. I believe that to be the problem. Feel free to define sin for us. For the most part, as a verb, I understand sin to be lawlessness, acting in a way that is contrary to God's law. It is any behavior that does not emanate from love. However, there are other ways in which sin is talked about in the Bible. For example, in Romans, when Paul personifies sin as being in him, he is not talking about any specific behavior, but rather a nature that leads one into selfish behavior. When the Bible speaks about Jesus becoming sin, again, this is not describing his yielding to temptation, but it is talking about a state of being. So there are many different ways that sin might be defined, but generally speaking, when we talk about sin, we are talking about behavior that does not emanate from love. John wrote: Here you have equated spiritual growth with developing enough courage to preach to those who do not want to hear a preacher. I do not associate this with spiritual maturity -- actually, quite the opposite. Courage - yes; maturity -- no. Spiritual growth is the condition of increasing strength and quality of spiritual virtues like courage, boldness, faith, strong conscience, love, peace, joy, righteousness, gentleness, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering, etc. We obviously understand spiritual maturity differently. If you remember when the apostles were cast into the common prison and were beaten, the Scripture says that they left rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name (Acts 5:41). It takes spiritual maturity to suffer shame for the name of Christ. God does not call upon the spiritually immature to suffer in this way. When we begin to experience it, we can rejoice because we know that we have reached a condition of maturity whereby we are worthy to suffer the shame. John wrote: David, I do not believe that you experienced physical abuse just because you lived your life differently as you seem to claim in the opening sintences [sic]. It is sad that you do not believe me. God knows that I speak the truth. 2 Timothy 3:12 (12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. John wrote: Do you include things like arrogance, pride, conceit, selfishness, lust and the like as sin? David Miller wrote: Yes. John wrote: Do you understand that I consider these things to be sin? Yes. John wrote: And, do you have no trace of these? David Miller wrote: No traces? These things abound in my flesh. I must consider these things to be dead on a daily basis. What I am talking about is the kind of holiness that Jesus walked in. John wrote: Right here is, perhaps, where we part company. I do not understand your theology on this at all. You have achieved Uniquesness [sic]. Are you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect? Only my heavenly Father is able to answer that question. John wrote: Specifics David. That is how you will change my mind. David Miller wrote: You only need to ask. John wrote: I did ask, previously, David and you told me that you were going to do something else. but I am glad that you changed your mind. I did not change my mind. The first set of questions were: John wrote: This day, did you pour yourself out for the afflicted? Is there any degree of selfishness or pride in your life. ... If you answer yes to the above --- how many folk do you know, really, who can say the same. An actually number is what I am asking for. And what of those who have not so complied. If I said that this would be nearly everyone you know -- what are the impliations of that reality? These questions involve assessing whatever success over temptation I might have experienced and comparing it with others. I will not do that. It would be sin. :-) I am more interested in discussing what God's word teaches us about the problem of sin and the work of Christ in relationship to it. My personal testimony goes into how I have experienced God's word in relationship to this. I will express those things as they seem appropriate, but I will not yield to temptations of boasting in that which is given to me as a free gift of God. Job 1:1 (1) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 9:20-21 (20) If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. (21) Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life. Shalom, shalom. David Miller -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
In a message dated 1/18/2005 2:20:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. DAVEH: I don't see that as a big problem for this type of forum at all A most interesting exchange of ideas. DaveH 's comment above is at the heart of what this forum is about. This is not the David Miller Discussion Group and I am sure that David would agree, heartedly. Neither does this forum belong to a specific paradigm nor to a single sectarian mentality. There are some who obviously feel differently. And that, in and of itself, adds to the purpose of this forum. For some, this forum is all about "getting the word out on what I believe or more, importantly, what God has revealed to me." Others choose a different fantasy and propagate it. In the midst of all struggle, some receive "truth" and are able to have it make sense in their lives. Your truth detector of love and stuff Pastor Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!
In a message dated 1/18/2005 3:09:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know what you mean about 'maturity' John - I do know this to be the context for the word perfect in some other places but in 1 Cor 13:10 'complete' would be better. We can know it refers to Christ rather than the Bible because of the setting ie: "Love never fails, now we see through a glass darkly, then face to face. Now I know in part - then I shall know as I am known" Vs.12 This speaks to me of the second coming. judyt Which is not even alluded to in the passage. What is given, in terms of context, is this: When I was a child .. I thought as a child .. now that I have become a man ... I did away with childish things" (I Co 13:11). Keep in mind the purpose of this passage: to present a teaching that outlines conduct befitting those who are, in deed, mature -- allowing for the growth of (especially) the assembled relationship of the Body. Since the advice goes to relationships, it is and can be used in any discussion involving people, whether married or not, whether assembled or not (a church or a discussion group), whether between two friends or at a town hall meeting. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Greek Dualism
Terry wrote: On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. You are pointing something out here that fits real well with Greek Dualism, but the Sadducean Hebraic Mindset objects. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
If you think I want David to make clear what is clear to me -- well, then, call it any of your favorite little names. Either he believes that he is a sinner [with current sin problems as opposed to temptation problems] or he doesn't. Since you are the one who challenged this (my assertion that David claims a sinlessness because of the HG's influence in his life) , since David's response is a confusing one (at best thought), I have asked the question below. Do I bait sameone to tell the truth? Come on, Judy -- get a grip. Of course I do. We are to be fishers of men and I am, the Chief Baiter. Whew ! JD In a message dated 1/18/2005 3:30:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, some people are able to separate themselves. From what I understand David to say he still gets around in a flesh body and he has the same opportunity to sin every day as the rest of us both physically and emotionally. Are you baiting him? Is this some kind of public humiliation? On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:24:51 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know why I have to choke this out of David, when his postings have been very clear on the subject to everyone except Judy. Here is the question and we can start the discussion from this: David Miller,. do you have sin in your life to any degree? Consider sins of omission (knowing to do right but not taking the time or energy to do it); event sins (such as murder, angry words, adultery this is the "biblical sin" usually referenced in the Message); sins of the character (pride, selfishness, conceit, envy, laziness, anger, deceitfullness [different from a deceitful act], arrogance and the like). A simply one word answer will be sufficient at this stage. Let's not speak of temptation, shall we. Temptation is not sin, as we all know. Such is a good topic for future discussion, but not now. my answer is "yes." My answer for all on this forum is "yes." What about you, David? Yes nor no. Jack D Smithson The Webbmeister
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
Dave Hansen wrote: Soas I'm understanding this, Protestantism teaches that Jesus' (who is God) spirit is now clothed in a body of flesh and bonesis that correct? ... Do you believe God has a physical body as well? Dave, most Protestant scholars would accept the view that Jesus Christ has a physical body. I believe this and would make a case with those who would try and argue that Jesus is only a ghost right now. The question of the Father's physical presence is another matter entirely. John Calvin took a very strong stand on this issue, and because of the influence of his writings on this subject, most Protestants probably favor the view that the Father does not have a physical body. In fact, many of them would consider anyone a heretic who would think that the Father has a body. This view, however, like the eternal sonship view discussed before, is not universal. Nor is it considered orthodoxy by all Protestants. Personally, based upon my study of Scripture, I think that the Father does have a physical body, but it is not an issue that I would fight anyone over. I do not feel the same way about those who perceive Jesus not to have a physical body. Those who would claim that Jesus does not have a physical body would be attacking the doctrine of the resurrection. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:02:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: others have moved on to the resurrection. It is the power that emanates from the resurrection that enables a believer to be free from sin past, the power of sin present, and the future consequence for sin. This is not just static theology - it's a living way that needs to be walked in. jt Actually, a profound summerary of what I believe. Glad to have you aboard, Judy. John -- The Communal Voice Crying in the Wildernes
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
John wrote: I don't like it when I am talking about one thing sin and you speak of soemthing entirely different temptation. I do not like that at all. Sorry, John. Some misunderstanding here. In this particular context, I interpret battle with sin as being the struggle one experiences when they are tempted to sin. A battle can be either won or lost. Do you understand battle with sin as being the same thing as sinning? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
I AM NOT A MODERATE. I AM EXTREMELY OFFENDED, THAT ANYONE WOULD EVEN MENTION SUCH AN IDEA! ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think it wouldnt be real TT if we didnt have occasional outbreaks of Kevin/Perry/Hansen feathers flying. Kinda makes it feel like home. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.slade I am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:47:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, are you saying that you think a mature Believer does not fear God in the Biblical sense? I believe that we all either walk in the fear of God OR in the fear of Man. The former leads to righteousness; the latter leads to sin. How do you see it? Izzy I do no fear God. I AM saved. See the connections? JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
In a message dated 1/18/2005 7:11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Soas I'm understanding this, Protestantism teaches that Jesus' (who is God) spirit is now clothed in a body of flesh and bonesis that correct? I will be interested to hear if Kevin agrees, as he seems to be very critical that I believe God consists of a physical being. ButI don't want to put words in his mouth, so what do you believe, Kevin? Do you believe God has a physical body as well? Lance also wrote: "The Son of God is still incarnate, though now incarnate as a risen and glorious man. Jesus, was gloriously raised from the dead as a complete and entire man--body and soul." T. Weinandy, 'Jesus Christ', Our Sunday Visitor, 2003 Terry Clifton wrote: Slade Henson wrote: The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay === On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. I don't dwell on stuff like this much, but seems to me that if we all get glorified bodies and we all get to eat at the feast, it would be a shame for Jesus not to have a stomach too. Terry Does this have anything to do with the above: " Beloved, now we are children of God and it has not yet appeared as to what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we hall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as he is [whatever that is- my add-on]." I Jo 3:2 Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Maturity
In a message dated 1/18/2005 7:32:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John wrote: Our definitions for sin are different. I believe that to be the problem. Feel free to define sin for us. For the most part, as a verb, I understand sin to be lawlessness, acting in a way that is contrary to God's law. It is I really want you to answer my question before I move on. Your answer goes directly to my statement above. If you regard sins of character as legitimate aspects of the biblical view if "sin," as I do, are you a sinner and sinning at this time. Is there no degree of selfish within you? No degree of the lazy's, no pride whatsoever, no conceit, an anger, no arrogance. Whatever? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:04:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, John. Some misunderstanding here. In this particular context, I interpret "battle with sin" as being the struggle one experiences when they are tempted to sin. A battle can be either won or lost. Do you understand "battle with sin" as being the same thing as "sinning"? Did you not take into account the context of MY question? Incredible. You know full well what our discussion was about. To change in the face of a difficult question is not something I will go along with. I have stated, once again, my question just a few minutes ago. When that post appears, please refer to it. Thanks John
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
"I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:45:57 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.sladeI am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:15:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I AM NOT A MODERATE. I AM EXTREMELY OFFENDED, THAT ANYONE WOULD EVEN MENTION SUCH AN IDEA! o.k.
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:20:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity. Yes. That is all I am getting at. I thought it was clear until David sent that post talking about temptation and, essentially, avoiding in clear statement, what he actually taught in that very post. It is clear to me that David believes he has no sin issues (as opposed to temptation matters). Correct me if I am wrong. He sees the work of the Spirit as opposed to sin in much the same way as one end of a magnet is opposed to the other (that's why it is at the other end, of course --- tell me I am not a scientist !) With the Spirit in his life -- sin MUST be repelled. So, there is no sin. His problem is one of Dilemma Doctrine Theology (solely, a term of my creation and, yes, I am proud). When one is going through the DDT's, often strange and delusional matters come to life. Doctor J
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:45:57 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is
Re: [TruthTalk] Greek Dualism
David Miller wrote: Terry wrote: On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. You are pointing something out here that fits real well with Greek Dualism, but the Sadducean Hebraic Mindset objects. Peace be with you. David Miller. === I am too ignorant in this area to take a side. However Jesus reigns today, I am confident that He is doin' it right. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:42:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVE as well as POSITIVE Seems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Awesome. An actual theology of negativism - all in a formulaic equation. TOE?? Ta,ta,ta Smithson -- out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:47:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, are you saying that you think a mature Believer does not fear God in the Biblical sense? I believe that we all either walk in the fear of God OR in the fear of Man. The former leads to righteousness; the latter leads to sin. How do you see it? Izzy I do no fear God. I AM saved. See the connections? JD === Do you ever fear that you will disappoint him? Do you ever fear that you could do something to incur His wrath? I do. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
The consequences of not telling them is pretty AWESOME too! Yes HELL is the Ultimate negative. Total lack of any good.Total lack of anything God. Sick of the deafing silence...[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:42:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" meansNEGATIVE as well as POSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVEANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERTHere is the PREACHERS commision2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of seasonAwesome. An actual theology of negativism - all in a formulaic equation. TOE??Ta,ta,taSmithson -- out! __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Hahaha...I found that funny. Actually, I've heard of the "Sinless Doctrine"from C. Barr and Daniel Lee. Run, JohnRUN! K -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.09To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anythingIn a message dated 1/18/2005 5:20:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity.Yes. That is all I am getting at. I thought it was clear until David sent that post talking about temptation and, essentially, avoiding in clear statement, what he actually taught in that very post. It is clear to me that David believes he has no sin issues (as opposed to temptation matters). Correct me if I am wrong. He sees the work of the Spirit as opposed to sin in much the same way as one end of a magnet is opposed to the other (that's why it is at the other end, of course --- tell me I am not a scientist !) With the Spirit in his life -- sin MUST be repelled. So, there is no sin. His problem is one of Dilemma Doctrine Theology (solely, a term of my creation and, yes, I am proud). When one is going through the DDT's, often strange and delusional matters come to life. Doctor J
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
"Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:45:57 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
"Pastor Smithson" wrote: In the midst of all struggle,some receive "truth" and are able to have it make sense in their lives. Those are the ones who are, in principle,willing to change their mind. The alternative is to be hard-packed, impenetrable path-soil. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:54:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do no fear God. I AM saved. See the connections? JD === Do you ever fear that you will disappoint him? Do you ever fear that you could do something to incur His wrath? I do. Terry Yes - daily, but that is more "concern" than "fear." No -- I stand in the continual flow; such is impossible. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
In a message dated 1/18/2005 9:00:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The consequences of not telling them is pretty AWESOME too! Yes HELL is the Ultimate negative. Total lack of any good. Total lack of anything God. Sick of the deafing silence... Which is pretty much what you get from the other side ~! JD
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
"yelling and shouting so loudly that you close all the doors" Thanks for your advice JD. AS FAR AS SHUT DOORS: Untold Millions are still Untold! I think of two doors one SHUT UP and one waiting to be opened SHUT: "ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not" Waiting and Knocking: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him" The DOORS are already shut just waiting for the DEATH Sentence to be executed at any time no one but God knows just when. They are hanging by a thred on death row, while we flap our gums! 2 Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead Ez 33: And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fireIs 40 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Yelling and shouting?The Bible calls it preaching. What is wrong with preaching, pray tell. MT 10 what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Is 58 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. C H Spurgeon said "No sort of defense is needed for preaching out of doors, but it would need very potent arguments to prove that a man had done his duty who has never preached beyond the walls of his meeting-house. A defense is required for services within buildings than for worship outside of them." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:36:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I bet when Dave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others.You do NOTHING OF consequence yelling and shouting so loudly that you close all the doors of reasoned dialogue. Get that thorugh your thick boned head and you will be an excellent minister for Christ. Lord knows you have courage. Now, just a bit of common sense, and we will have another Billy Sunday.. seriouslyJD Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo!
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Never any thing negative preached in the old testament or new according to you?Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:45:57 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you took it the wrong way, Judy. Kay, who knows Slade very well From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue,
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
In a message dated 1/18/2005 9:17:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Pastor Smithson" wrote: In the midst of all struggle, some receive "truth" and are able to have it make sense in their lives. Those are the ones who are, in principle, willing to change their mind. The alternative is to be hard-packed, impenetrable path-soil. Debbie "impenetrable path-soil." In the words of brother Farley - awesome !! A very simple phrase that expresses much to me (an others, I am sure.) Glad you are here, woman. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Another clairvoyent! What knoweth thou? C'mon JD you do not have a clue what goes on in this arena. Why give advice where you never have trod? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/18/2005 9:00:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The consequences of not telling them is pretty AWESOME too!Yes HELL is the Ultimate negative. Total lack of any good. Total lack of anything God.Sick of the deafing silence... Which is pretty much what you get from the other side ~!JD Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Sure there is...but the delivery is Divine. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 12.23To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Never any thing negative preached in the old testament or new according to you?Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
"Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. Not so ONEmessage sent by Paul 2 different RESPONSES 2 Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?What made the difference? The heart condition For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness When Jesus "stood at the Feast and CRIED" John 7:37 did he CRY- eg. go boo whoo? Cry aloud like a trumpet, as commanded by Scripture? "I love those that thunder out the Word, the christian world is in a deep sleep. Nothing but a loud voice can awaken them out of it" Whitefield Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then Kay please help me to understand what this is about because to me it makes no sense at all. We all know who the Mormons are so what would be the point in using the term "the average Mormon" people can be just as mean in veiled ways if this is their intent. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Whatever, Kevin...but you catch more flies with honey. Didn't you read the testimony I shared about Cheryl? It was a street preacher sort who damaged her so deeply that she blamed God and would have nothing to do with Him. She thought he was nuts, first of all, and second of all didn't want anything to do with a God who had people like that "working" for Him. Have you ever ASKED anyonegawking ata "street preacher" what they really think? Might try it sometime...you might be amazed. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 12.39To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. Not so ONEmessage sent by Paul 2 different RESPONSES 2 Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?What made the difference? The heart condition For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness When Jesus "stood at the Feast and CRIED" John 7:37 did he CRY- eg. go boo whoo? Cry aloud like a trumpet, as commanded by Scripture? "I love those that thunder out the Word, the christian world is in a deep sleep. Nothing but a loud voice can awaken them out of it" Whitefield Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
David:Following your reply to my question as follows:"LOL Lance, my source is Scripture!" Are these (ones) the source of your belief? If not then, from whom did you first hear this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 11:58 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Hahaha...I found that funny. Actually, I've heard of the "Sinless Doctrine"from C. Barr and Daniel Lee. Run, JohnRUN! K -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.09To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anythingIn a message dated 1/18/2005 5:20:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity.Yes. That is all I am getting at. I thought it was clear until David sent that post talking about temptation and, essentially, avoiding in clear statement, what he actually taught in that very post. It is clear to me that David believes he has no sin issues (as opposed to temptation matters). Correct me if I am wrong. He sees the work of the Spirit as opposed to sin in much the same way as one end of a magnet is opposed to the other (that's why it is at the other end, of course --- tell me I am not a scientist !) With the Spirit in his life -- sin MUST be repelled. So, there is no sin. His problem is one of Dilemma Doctrine Theology (solely, a term of my creation and, yes, I am proud). When one is going through the DDT's, often strange and delusional matters come to life. Doctor J
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Sorry, Im not following you here, Kevin. Are you joking? Did I call you a moderate? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:13 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? I AM NOT A MODERATE. I AM EXTREMELY OFFENDED, THAT ANYONE WOULD EVEN MENTION SUCH AN IDEA! ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think it wouldnt be real TT if we didnt have occasional outbreaks of Kevin/Perry/Hansen feathers flying. Kinda makes it feel like home. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term The average Mormon was used? The reason I ask is this: I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to convert you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all. slade I am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
John, are you saying that you think a mature Believer does not fear God in the Biblical sense? I believe that we all either walk in the fear of God OR in the fear of Man. The former leads to righteousness; the latter leads to sin. How do you see it? Izzy I do no fear God. I AM saved. See the connections?JD No I dont see the connections, as there are none. The saved DO fear God. Im afraid we have a different definition of fearing God. I believe it means seeing ourselves through Gods eyes with the desire to please Him. Versus constantly measuring ourselves against other humans, which leads to vanity and sin. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Very true Kevin. However I dont read the word Bludgeon in there. We cannot bludgeon anyone into the kingdom. A rebuke and a reproof and exhortation can be done with dignity and firmnessbut doesnt always have to be harsh. Your heart is in the right place. Check the fruit of your efforts to see if they are working now and then. Maybe they are; I dont know. I just know that DaveH has chosen his path, and I cant reason or scream him out of it. Some things are between him and his conscience. Im ready to talk if/when he is ready, but cant barge in against his will. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Pastor Smithson wrote: In the midst of all struggle, some receive truth and are able to have it make sense in their lives. Those are the ones who are, in principle, willing to change their mind. The alternative is to be hard-packed, impenetrable path-soil. Debbie impenetrable path-soil. In the words of brother Farley - awesome !! A very simple phrase that expresses much to me (an others, I am sure.) Glad you are here, woman. Jd Getting that soil dug up and loose is a painful process. But worth it. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Yup, and yup. Debbie -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:15 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? "Pastor Smithson" wrote: In the midst of all struggle, some receive "truth" and are able to have it make sense in their lives. Those are the ones who are, in principle, willing to change their mind. The alternative is to be hard-packed, impenetrable path-soil. Debbie "impenetrable path-soil." In the words of brother Farley - awesome !! A very simple phrase that expresses much to me (an others, I am sure.) Glad you are here, woman.Jd Getting that soil dug up and loose is a painful process. But worth it. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:54:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do no fear God. I AM saved. See the connections? JD === Do you ever fear that you will disappoint him? Do you ever fear that you could do something to incur His wrath? I do. Terry Yes - daily, but that is more "concern" than "fear." No -- I stand in the continual flow; such is impossible. Jd You say that you sin every day. The Bible says that God is angry with the sinner every day. No fear? Is that prudent?
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Yes I read it. She will never get saved after meeting that idiot. That WAS NOT a STREET PREACHER Sort! It was probably a Dan Lee sortSlade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whatever, Kevin...but you catch more flies with honey. Didn't you read the testimony I shared about Cheryl? It was a street preacher sort who damaged her so deeply that she blamed God and would have nothing to do with Him. She thought he was nuts, first of all, and second of all didn't want anything to do with a God who had people like that "working" for Him. Have you ever ASKED anyonegawking ata "street preacher" what they really think? Might try it sometime...you might be amazed. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 12.39To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. Not so ONEmessage sent by Paul 2 different RESPONSES 2 Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?What made the difference? The heart condition For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness When Jesus "stood at the Feast and CRIED" John 7:37 did he CRY- eg. go boo whoo? Cry aloud like a trumpet, as commanded by Scripture? "I love those that thunder out the Word, the christian world is in a deep sleep. Nothing but a loud voice can awaken them out of it" Whitefield Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. You should take it the way Slade asked it. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 11.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Oh by the way speak "ALL MY WORDS" means NEGATIVEas well asPOSITIVESeems the correct formula would be TWO THIRDS NEGATIVE 1/3 POSITIVE ANYONE who is all one or the other is a BIBLE PERVERT Here is the PREACHERS commision 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I think you took it the wrong way" Kay what way should we take it? AS for me I think the utimate MEAN spirit is the spirit of the age that does not open it's mouth lest we offend someone. I bet whenDave is cast into a bottomless pit, you may consider you did not do enough for him or the mutitudes of others. Ido not see visions. BUT I do have ONE visionthat the scares the Hell out of me. It breaks my heart. It is a vision of what I will witness in the future.I will witness countless MILLIONS, bound hand and foot and cast into OUTER DARKNESS For many things, I will answer to God someday. Will I also have to answer for Blood on my hands? Ezek 33 8-9 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Okay...what's the difference? Someone else told me the same thing. Are you blessed with knowing Daniel Lee? What is the difference between Street Preacher Daniel Lee sortand a Street Preacher sort? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 13.37To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Yes I read it. She will never get saved after meeting that idiot. That WAS NOT a STREET PREACHER Sort! It was probably a Dan Lee sort
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Sorry I was not clear. Communication with words is not my strong suit! It was not your comment, it was the commentS below.yours. "Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence" I think Judy said it nicely. I would have said it different, does that really make it wrong? And yes I was joking at the expense of myself. ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, Im not following you here, Kevin. Are you joking? Did I call you a moderate? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? I AM NOT A MODERATE. I AM EXTREMELY OFFENDED, THAT ANYONE WOULD EVEN MENTION SUCH AN IDEA! ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think it wouldnt be real TT if we didnt have occasional outbreaks of Kevin/Perry/Hansen feathers flying. Kinda makes it feel like home. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Looks to me like you are trying to moderateKevin Deegan into silence.Kevin has been around for a long time and I'm sure Dave Hansen is used to him by now. It's obvious that Kevin has no personal vendetta or dislike for Dave and my understanding is that it is lovetospeak the truth to someone who is in obvious error - Kevin obviously spends a lot of time researching this stuff and whether or not we are comfortable with what he does, he has his own part in the body and serves the Lord in His own way. His part may not be our part but should we try to cut it off or stifle it? jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:33:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:46:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used? The reason I ask is this:I am not a Mormon, as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism, it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not a proper method of evangelism. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary. I love you and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth, but G-d has us standing one two different shores of doctrine at this time. Praying for the best in us all.slade I am sure glad you are around, even if your ARE one of those eviil Messianics. Very glad. Jd __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
KAY SAID: "Preach the word" doesn't mean yell, scream, demean, or belittle the personreprove, rebuke, and exhort do not mean belittle or demean, either. It's all in the way it's served on the plate, whether it's accepted as something sweet to the taste, or something that is rejected and vomited. QUESTION: Did Jesus ever demean or belittle anyone?__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
I only know of him ONLINE.. Hedoes NOT have a Street Preacher's heart. Let me splain it to ya this way, OK? We took a Christian man to a very large "protest march" There were all kinds of Angry people marching for all kinds of Demands This Christian was so scared he sat the whole time by the police line near hundreds of police. When we got home he told wonderous stories and told everyone he was a SP Not sure where his heart was. In fact this man once said to me of a group he was frustrated over "let them burn in hell" I care not for any to go to Hell! Have you ever seen a Street Preacher weep for those caught in sin? I have many times Have you ever seen a Street Preacher PRAY for the lost and Cry out to God, till his eyes were red and snot was coming out his nose? I have many times That is a Street Preachers heart!Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay...what's the difference? Someone else told me the same thing. Are you blessed with knowing Daniel Lee? What is the difference between Street Preacher Daniel Lee sortand a Street Preacher sort? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 13.37To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian? Yes I read it. She will never get saved after meeting that idiot. That WAS NOT a STREET PREACHER Sort! It was probably a Dan Lee sort Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
Dave Hansen wrote: Soas I'm understanding this, Protestantism teaches that Jesus' (who is God) spirit is now clothed in a body of flesh and bonesis thatcorrect? ... Do you believe God has a physicalbody as well? JESUS: Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. FATHER: God is a Spirit see also Rev 4:5, 5:6__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Maturity
John wrote: If you regard sins of character as legitimate aspects of the biblical view if sin, as I do, are you a sinner and sinning at this time. Is there no degree of selfish within you? No degree of the lazy's, no pride whatsoever, no conceit, an anger, no arrogance. Whatever? We apparently are working with different definitions and a different model of man's makeup. I will break down your questions and try to answer each question briefly. You should keep in mind that I perceive a dual nature to man's makeup, as per Romans 7. There is the physical body, the flesh, which is the source of the sin within man, and then there is the spirit, which is connected to God in the Spirit-filled man. I perceive that Jesus also had this sin nature within his flesh. In other words, he had a source of pride, laziness, conceit, anger, arrogance, etc. within his flesh, his physical body. However, he never sinned because he did not yield unto these temptations of his flesh. Therefore, I look to Jesus as the perfect example of how we may walk when we abide in him. 1. Am I a sinner? Yes, in the sense that I have sinned in the past. I am a sinner who has been washed in the blood and sanctified by the Spirit of grace. 2. Am I sinning at this time? No. 3. Is there any degree of selfishness within me? Yes. The flesh is selfish and is a source of temptation for me to be selfish. 4. Is there any degree of laziness, pride, conceit, anger, and arrogance within me? Yes. Within my flesh, a sin principle resides that is a source of temptation in these areas. Nevertheless, because of the work of the Spirit in my life, I find my flesh is dead, and so I do not incline myself toward the appetites of my flesh. The spirit works contrary to the flesh and leads me into paths of righteousness. I trust the Lord will always provide a way for me to escape yielding to the sinful desires of the flesh. I do not sin daily in thought, word, and deed. I live in Romans 8, not Romans 7. I could say some more about when evil thoughts become sin, but I will keep this post short for now. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: Question, why is it that Mr Mouw believes he knows more about Mormonsm than many men who have spent a large part of their livesstudying and witnessing to Mormons? DAVEH: Hmmm...maybe he listens before he talks? KD Maybe he talks before he thinks? Well it just so happens that Mr. Mouw has NO LDS experience except for his friend Stephen Robinson. That is why MANY Evangelicals have said Mouw is the one bearing False Witness. DAVEH: Sounds like a classic case of killing the messenger if you don't like the message he delivers. KD How can one expound on Mormonism after talking to just one Mormon, one who has no authority and denies the OFFICIAL teaching of his church? Mr. Mouw has done this numerous times to his shame. Open mouth insert I amtalking about OFFICIAL LDS beliefs maybe you prefer to talk Daves beliefs, that is fine, I prefer to label those as daveISM and the others as Mormonism. According to OFFICIAL statements Dave has NO RIGHT to define Mormonism. DAVEH: I'll be expecting an OFFICIAL reprimand from SLC-LDS-HQ to arrive any day. :-) KD If your Bishop only knew -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Thanks Dave You do understand that I do not hate you? Maybe you think you understand me. I am not even simmering. I do hate the FALSE way of Mormonism It is the RIGHT way to hate falsehood. PS 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. You also understand we just disagree sharply, do we not? How WIDE is the Divide?Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Slade Henson wrote: A Message for Dave Hansen and Dave Hansen alone Are you offended with posts of this nature that include your name in a disparaging manner? If so, would you be equally offended if your name was not included and the term "The average Mormon" was used?DAVEH: I am saddened by such, Slade. But I am not offended by it. From experience, I've learned to expect it, but it does surprise me that after being here for 5 years now, I would continue to be on the receiving end of it from some of my TT friends. In a sense, I prefer that there be no ad hominen rules apply to those who want to speak their mind to me. It bothers me to think that others can't be up front when they talk to me. If they think ill of me, I'd prefer they vocalize it so I can try to mend the broken fence. Failing that, I'll try to find another way to mitigate the situation. On the other hand, if everybody is afraid to bare their souls to me, I fear the hate that will fester will be far more destructive in the endto the one harboring such feelings. As you know.I've got a thick skin and am not smart enough to know when somebody is really out to do me harm. Somost ill phrased comments tend to bounce off without doing much interior damage. FurthermoreI'm getting too old to raise my blood pressure simply over social misbehavior. Also, I learned many, many years ago that an angry dog will not bite when you stare them in the face. It is only when you turn your back on them to run that they will nip you in the butt. (Hope that doesn't draw a TT reprimand! :-) ) Sowhen somebody is airing out their grievances against Mormons, it allows me to face their accusations head on, which to me is the safest place to be in such a situation. As I see it, if their true sentiments simmer within for a long time, eventually their soul will boil over in a situation that becomes difficult to control. So, in summary.Go easy with reprimands to those who view me as a problem in TT and feel the need to express their true feelings. Unless it creates a problem for you to dispense discipline unevenly, allow them to let their steam blow off harmlessly and I'll let you know if the heat becomes unbearable for me. The reason I ask is this: I am not a Mormon,DAVEH: Hmm..that can be corrected, Slade! ;-) as you know, but I am embarrassed for you. Why? If Kevin Deegan hopes to "convert" you away from Mormonism,DAVEH: No Slade, IMHO I think you are wrong on that. I don't want to psychoanalyze Kevin publicly in TT, so it is best if I don't continue along that line. it's my opinion that embarrassment and ridicule is not aproper method of evangelism.DAVEH: I agree. But from my limited experience, it seems to be the SOP for some street preachers. That's why I am so curious about why some of them go to the lengths they do in decrying the LDS Church during Conference time in SLC twice a year. IF they really understood the Mormon mentality, I can't believe they would use such tactics to try to convert us away from Mormonism. What they do there only drives us closer together, rather than apart. That's why I said above that I really don't think some TTers are trying to embarrass me in hopes of converting me. Sowhy do they do it, you may ask? BrieflyI think it is a source of empowerment. A lot could be said about it, but it would go beyond the scope of this thread. I can't help believe that the main thrust is to shame you away from TruthTalk. DAVEH: Long before you arrived on TT, there were others who tried unsuccessfully to do that. IF most all TTers are uncomfortable with me and really want me to leave, I'll without hesitation unsubscribe, as I don't want to be an aggravation to most of you folks or give Mormonism a black eye on my behalf by staying beyond my welcome. However.I suspect my detractors would somewhat miss me if I were to leave. :-) Please let me know your feelings. Privately if necessary.DAVEH: I prefer to keep most stuff out in the open. If any TTers think I'm crying to the moderators behind their backsit ain't so. Nor will it happen in the future. If I've got a beef with anybody on TT, I'll try to diffuse the situation openly and in public. I love you DAVEH: Thanx Slade. I appreciate you saying that. and I [of course] would like you to see the Truth as I see the Truth,DAVEH: All TTers see it that way.both to me, and to the other TTers! Interesting how that works, eh. It would be nice if we can all share our perspectives and discuss them civilly. That does not mean we have to buy into the other
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:15:06 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A couple of questions for the purpose of clarification, please: 1. What does the _expression_ 'cosmic incarnation' mean? If you don't know then, why use it? jt: Why ask the question if you already believe you have it figured out Lance? 2. As we 'speak', do you consider yourself to be completely free of sin in thought, word and deed? jt: I am not walking in any known sin as we speak.. 3a. I think you make a good point with respect to 'resurrection power' but, I'd rather speak of the ongoing mediatorial work of the ascended Christ via the book of Hebrews.However, does either of these provide the REALITY as opposed to the POSSIBILITY of living a life ENTIRELY FREE OF SIN IN THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED? jt: Yes it is possible to live a sanctified life and to stand before Him without shame when he returns. 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity. jt: What do you mean ambiguity? I don't make it a secret that I believe sanctification is a second work of grace and from what I read I believe DavidM just might be talking about the same..People seem to get it in their head for some reason that I follow John Wesley and to tell you the truth I don't really know what he believed about holiness. thanks, Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 18, 2005 07:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything FWIW Lance, My belief is thatyou are in a time warp, stuck in your cosmic incarnation while DavidM, myself and others have moved on to the resurrection. It is the power that emanates from the resurrection that enables a believer to be free from sin past, the power of sin present, and the future consequence for sin. This is not just static theology - it's a living way that needs to be walked in. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:34:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt asks:'don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller?' NO I DO NOT! However, it could well be that the text, here and elsewhere, yourself, and David Miller are in possession of an 'objective truth' that eludes me. From: Judy Taylor Thank you for those thoughts Lance. I use "from what I understand" in this instance because I am dealing with ppl in different stages of spiritual growth who may not see things as I see them. However, I do believe in such a thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is a right and a wrong, a good and an evil. Everything is not "subjective" - Paul the apostle told the people at Corinth the most wicked city in the known world to "awake to righteousness and sin not" - Is this just a play onwords? Was he telling them to do something that was impossible? If the Corinthians were able to do this don't you believe it is in the realm of possibility for David Miller? You are wrong about every believer consciously and actively sinning daily in thought, word, and deed; if this is what is going on then these people (even those who profess to be following Christ) are deceived ppl who are walking in unbelief. jt On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:49:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jt says: 'from what I understand David to say' As everyone has access to what David has 'said', IMO this is not the difficulty that John has. Even you, Judy, have had to qualify by uttering 'from what I understand' thus indicating that you just might be incorrect. I'd posit a couple of thoughts on this and, related matters: 1. Implicit in every utterance is some version of:'as I see it', in my opinion,'from what I understand of the text before me' 2. All speaking of anything is partial and provisional. 3. David himself may not know how to answer John's question with the sort of clarity John wants. We did have this discussion some time ago with, as I recall, the same outcome. 4. David just might consider his approximation of an answer the 'way of humility'. 5. IMO, IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. I am, by inference, saying the same thing of every
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
He did Terry, he ate fish with the disciples after the cross but before he was resurrected. I don't doubt that the resurrected body is a reality and the soul is what needs saving. However the spirit is an important part of man because God is a spirit and we communicate with him in that dimension. There is another character who is also in that dimension who has a lot to say also. On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:32:50 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Slade Henson wrote: The Besuras Hageulah According to Lukas (Luke) 23:46 And having cried out with a kol gadol (loud voice), Rebbe Melech HaMoschiach said, Abba, BYADCHA AFKID RUCHI (Into your hands I commit my ruach [spirit]). And this having said, Rebbe, Melech HaMoschiach breathed out his last. Kay===On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. I don't dwell on stuff like this much, but seems to me that if we all get glorified bodies and we all get to eat at the feast, it would be a shame for Jesus not to have a stomach too.Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
Well thanks for speaking to him about his condition.. So many today think the armour of the Lord is a seat cushion! "Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov's idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!'" Charles Spurgeon ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. There are only 2 times to preach IN season Out of season Very true Kevin. However I dont read the word Bludgeon in there. We cannot bludgeon anyone into the kingdom. A rebuke and a reproof and exhortation can be done with dignity and firmnessbut doesnt always have to be harsh. Your heart is in the right place. Check the fruit of your efforts to see if they are working now and then. Maybe they are; I dont know. I just know that DaveH has chosen his path, and I cant reason or scream him out of it. Some things are between him and his conscience. Im ready to talk if/when he is ready, but cant barge in against his will. Izzy Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Maturity
David Miller wrote: John wrote: If you regard sins of character as legitimate aspects of the biblical view if "sin," as I do, are you a sinner and sinning at this time. Is there no degree of selfish within you? No degree of the lazy's, no pride whatsoever, no conceit, an anger, no arrogance. Whatever? We apparently are working with different definitions and a different model of man's makeup. I will break down your questions and try to answer each question briefly. You should keep in mind that I perceive a dual nature to man's makeup, as per Romans 7. There is the physical body, the flesh, which is the source of the sin within man, and then there is the spirit, which is connected to God in the Spirit-filled man. I perceive that Jesus also had this sin nature within his flesh. In other words, he had a source of pride, laziness, conceit, anger, arrogance, etc. within his flesh, his physical body. However, he never sinned because he did not yield unto these temptations of his flesh. Therefore, I look to Jesus as the perfect example of how we may walk when we abide in him. 1. Am I a sinner? Yes, in the sense that I have sinned in the past. I am a sinner who has been washed in the blood and sanctified by the Spirit of grace. 2. Am I sinning at this time? No. 3. Is there any degree of selfishness within me? Yes. The flesh is selfish and is a source of temptation for me to be selfish. 4. Is there any degree of laziness, pride, conceit, anger, and arrogance within me? Yes. Within my flesh, a sin principle resides that is a source of temptation in these areas. Nevertheless, because of the work of the Spirit in my life, I find my flesh is dead, and so I do not incline myself toward the appetites of my flesh. The spirit works contrary to the flesh and leads me into paths of righteousness. I trust the Lord will always provide a way for me to escape yielding to the sinful desires of the flesh. I do not sin daily in thought, word, and deed. I live in Romans 8, not Romans 7. I could say some more about when evil thoughts become sin, but I will keep this post short for now. Peace be with you. David Miller. I now understand your thinking much better..Looking forward to the next one. I have always wondered when a tempting thought becomes a sinful thought. I have had both, and recognize both for what they are, but have trouble finding the dividing line. Your thoughts may help shed some light. Terry --
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
DAVEH: Well Kevin, you do have an interesting perspective on the use of logic. Just so there aren't any misconceptions about the opinions I post on TT. You are right, KevinI am not an official spokesman for the LDS Church. When you or other TTers ask me a question, I endeavor to answer it the best I can according to my understanding of LDS theology at the current time. I'd like to think I get it right every time, but sometimes I fail to convey the message in a way you understand it properly. For that, I apologize. KD Seems to me your private interpretation is not allowed If I am wrong please comment on the "Context" of this quote: " Have we not a right to make up our minds in relation to the things recorded in the word of God, and speak about them, whether the living oracles believe our views or not? We have not the right...God placed Joseph Smith at the head of this church; God has likewise placed Brigham Young at the head of this church; and he has required you and me, male and female, to sustain those authorities placed over us in all things, and receive their words as from the mouth of God..." - Orson Pratt, Apostle, Journal of Discourses 7:374-375, Sermon January 29, 1860 If you think I've usurped any of the power, authority or knowledge of any of the prophets of GodI'll apologize to you (and them) for that as well. Again, I merely am trying to answer questions as I understand the theology. Now, I do have one advantage over non LDS folks. Having been around Mormonism for nearly 50 years, I've kinda got a feel for the way LDS people think and believe. When you quote one of the LDS Authorities, or Latter-day Scripture, I can generally get a feel for what they were trying to convey. Due to the way we define some of the terms used in common with Protestants, I fully understand why you may get the wrong impression when taking some of those comments out of context. That's OK thoughI don't mind trying to set the record straight, IF you'll allow me to do so. But that is not always possible, as sometimes you tend to jump from one thing to another so quickly, I can't keep up with all you are trying to post, Kevin. If you prefer to think I'm not a True Mormon...That's up to you. Maybe I'm not. Frankly...I'd rather not be the judge of that anyway. FWIWI'll leave the judging to the Lord. I've got the feeling that you will paint me the way you want Kevin, regardless of the facts. Hm.just what is it you want from me, anyway? Do you think I'm trying to deceive you? Or change you? Right now I'm wondering why you even respond to any of my posts, as you don't seem to want to carry on a pertinent discussion. Bottom line..Do you simply want to stop discussing stuff with me, Kevin? KD I think that before I was on this forum you tended to paint a different picture of mormonism and were happy to tag along any who would follow Of course I would love to Discuss with you but there is a string of 50 or 60 questions asked multiple times in multiple ways that you would not answer. What do we do with those things hard to answer. We are not talking of things sacred here. just simple questions The reason I did not answer or answered in a strange order is that I was out of town for 4 days. When i returned Sunday I had a a lot of mail in my box. I also have a life. I posted the below quotes to show you have no authority to interpret or to DISAGREE according to the AuthoritiesKevin Deegan wrote: Dave must adhere to "all the good" and choose the right, else he is not a True Mormon "Hve thePresbyteriansANY truth? Yes Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc. ANY truth? Yes. They all have a LITTLE truth mixed with ERROR. We should gather ALL THE GOOD and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons"Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.316 Dave has testified that he follows the Prophet At Gen conf LDS put their arm to the square and "consent" to the prophet. http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/26 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen. Dave is not a spokesman for the church "General Authorities today have the responsibility and priviledge to be SPOKESMEN" Teachings of the Living prophets Since Dave claims to be part of the Mormon Church he must follow the principles below as to the prophet Section 3-5 "The Living prophet Alone may speak Authoratatively to and for the Whole Church" "HE IS GOD'S SOLE MOUTHPIECE ON EARTH" "He ALONE may declare the mind and will of God" So when any other person irrespective of who he is, undertakes to do any of these things, you may know that he is not 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost'" Teachings of the Living Prophets -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
Does that mean that you David Miller are sinless? - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:16 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything Lance wrote: IFF David is 'one of us' then, he consciously, actively, sins daily in thought, word and deed. Then I guess I am not one of you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange god any how -- three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organizations...All are to be crammed into one god, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God -- he would be a giant or a monster." Joseph Smith, Jr., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH 6:476:76 "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage form God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! We have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it?" Joseph Smith, Jr., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH 6:474 Dave, Is Joe saying I do not care if this agrees with the New Testament?Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,PERRY: Okay, the LDS interpret the Godhead as 3 separate gods...sorry to mislead you!In conversations with LDS in the past I understood from their response that the LDS holy spirit was the spirit of the LDS god, and not a separate god itself. That is what I originally stated. DaveH corrected me in saying that the LDS holy spirit is not the spirit of LDS god, but a separate LDS god in and of itself. In the line above, I acknowledged that, and corrected my understanding. DaveH had said that I was being misleading. I was apologizing to those whom he thinks I misled, not to him. Now, what is it you see wrong with that?Now, to clear up the obfuscation created by this smokescreen, my original point is yet more clearly made by this description of the LDS godhead. It is NOT the same Godhead of the Bible. The names are the same, but the characters are different. The godhead of the Bible does not consist of a god from Kolob that was once a man, a god that was once a man made by the physical union of the god from Kolob and the human Mary, and a separate spirit that is also a god. Not the same at all.Regarding the section about women and resurrection, the reference I gave to prophet Snow speaks for itself. Here it is in brief: "No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband."As to why I typically do not look to Mormons for answers to Mormon questions is that they 1) typically regurgitate the accepted standard LDS answers, which err in the same way Joseph Smith erred, and 2) use the same words that Christians use, but use the hidden LDS meanings. Most commonly they do not reveal the differences. They may not even be aware of the differences. The best source of the truth about Mormons is from 1) the works of the LDS, and 2) former LDS members who have been lead by the Holy Spirit of the Bible from the pagan LDS system into truth, and who then can see the pagan and occultic nature of the system, and typically speak/write quite openly and truthfully about it.PerryFun Facts: Joseph Smith, the great LDS prophet, stated that there were men living on the moon! Where did he get this? Here is an article that tells about the most likely source: http://home.comcast.net/~cpl2602/moonhoax.htm. Seems to me that a prophet would know better.""Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another... contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style" (O. B. Huntington, Young Women's Journal, Vol. 3, p. 264, 1892).Not to be outdone, prophet Brigham Young stated that there were people living on the Sun!"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it" (B. Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271)."Are these the men you want telling you what god says?--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free!
Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything
In my younger days we called it "Tripping"! Those delusians are not real, they are filiments of your imagination. Thank G-d Dr. J is on the case! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Traditional Christian theology -- does sham mean anything In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:20:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3b. If you (you also David) are testifying to this in your life then, please say so without ambiguity.Yes. That is all I am getting at. I thought it was clear until David sent that post talking about temptation and, essentially, avoiding in clear statement, what he actually taught in that very post. It is clear to me that David believes he has no sin issues (as opposed to temptation matters). Correct me if I am wrong. He sees the work of the Spirit as opposed to sin in much the same way as one end of a magnet is opposed to the other (that's why it is at the other end, of course --- tell me I am not a scientist !) With the Spirit in his life -- sin MUST be repelled. So, there is no sin. His problem is one of Dilemma Doctrine Theology (solely, a term of my creation and, yes, I am proud). When one is going through the DDT's, often strange and delusional matters come to life. Doctor J
RE: [TruthTalk] Greek Dualism
Huh? What are you trying to say, David? -- slade -Original Message- From: David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 10.49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Greek Dualism Terry wrote: On the cross, Jesus indeed gave up His spirit, and His body was left to be wrapped in aloes and buried. But later, when He ascended, He went in one peice. You are pointing something out here that fits real well with Greek Dualism, but the Sadducean Hebraic Mindset objects -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is a Christian?
DAVEH: "from my limited experience, it seems to be the SOP for some street preachers. That's why I am so curious about why some of them go to the lengths they do in decrying the LDS Church during Conference time in SLC twice a year. IF they really understood the Mormon mentality, I can't believe they would use such tactics to try to convert us away from Mormonism. What they do there only drives us closer together, rather than apart." KD Since it is so ineffective I would think you would be starting a SP school so you could help drive all those members together! Besides it proves the church is true! Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
