Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
On 28/04/2011 23:06, Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: Come on George, if GUI is putting on lipstick on green screen then browser enabled is putting eye shadow and mascara on GUI. Only if what you do with it is to make an existing application look different. What you need to be doing is making things work differently and be used in different ways. 90% of an application consists of code running behind the interface, like validations, calculations and file/table updates aka business logic. There are no tools out there that generate business logic for you yet. Many have tried but nobody has succeeded. And as far as I am concerned you would be hard pressed to come up with something better than UniBasic for writing business logic. Exactly. That's why building web enabled applications using U2 works so well. Organizing information through an interface? Sorry, but don't you use databases with tables or files to organize your data? When you talk about presenting data, I agree, the web opens a whole new range of possibilities. I am talking about organising data on the screen, simple things like displaying data in a table that lets the user click on column headings to resequence, add, remove or resize columns or, as we do, displaying data in a portal where they can choose the portlets they want to display and where they appear on the screen. If it is reporting - there are plenty of products out there - no need to knit your own. I agree, I wouldn't write a reporting tool And presenting data through web pages to customers or suppliers or even letting them enter or transmit data is not rocket science either (pun intended). No it isn't, and that's the point, but it can have a massive effect on the effectiveness and efficiency of the organisation I wouldn't want outsiders to enter data over the internet using the same processes as in-house staff, though. This would need to be a totally different interface in any case. Different look-ups for instance, no discount or price override and totally different credentials. Absolutely, it needs to be much simpler, in some cases it means changing how the organisation works. Part of our software is event management, the need for people to book online has changed the way people plan events massively, it needs to be so much simpler than it used to be. I wouldn't let outsiders anywhere near my U2 server either. They should stay outside the firewall, where they belong! Yes they should This should be a piece of cake to bolt onto any existing application. On the other hand would you want order entry staff to use web pages with shopping basket and pop-ups instead of the good old order entry screen? Maybe it looks pretty but I doubt it's very productive. But the point is that for a lot of organisations it is a game changer, you can get to a point where you don't have order entry staff at all, it is all being done online. In my event example you don't have people entering delegates onto the system from forms anymore, people do it themselves online. The screens and processes they are using are different - if can be built onto existing applications, in fact it should be and that is why a lot of companies are being very successful doing this with U2. We have good solid applications to build on. You want to make a web page out of the old green or GUI screen? Fine, knock yourself out if somebody is willing to pay for it. No I don't, in the main I don't want what the old green screens did anymore, at least not in the same way. Sure, that is a generalisation, we have whole sections of our application we won't web enable mainly around financial processing. I can understand that you got frustrated interviewing colleagues who still think GUI is devil's work and the web is only for porn. You are right, there are plenty of those around, and I have and had to work with quite a few of them too. But I don't think the attitude of most graduates is much better, who think that they can develop applications by creating fancy screens alone. I have worked with quite a few of those too. But I have to admit - they are a dime a dozen. Question is, can they deliver anything else but pretty screens? On their own, probably not, but that is where building a team and managing them comes in. When I started in my back bedroom to create a membership management system it was just me, my wife and a couple of PCs. (Actually I think we started with one PC and a couple of Wyse terminals). We were both Pick/SB programmers and we could do everything we needed to do. Today whilst my wife still rules the UniData end we've got people who specialise in building the java based communication server, others who are web developers, there are graphic designers, then there is the networking and firewalls as well as the servers and virtualisation and so on. No one person knows it all anymore, it is all about getting them to work together. But the result
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Doug, Fine, Eclipse may be a full blown IDE, but I still can download it from the net for free and use it without having to pay an annual license fee. Why? Because it is open source perhaps? So where do the 'hundreds of millions of development dollars' come from? Donated by companies like yours? Yeah, right! But that still won't convince my boss to pay for a XLr8Editor license. I don't need 200 copies of every program I'm working on. Why would I want to compare the current version with the one before I wrote a block of code? I don't need a fancy tool to tell me that I hadn't written that particular piece of code half an hour ago. I hardly ever use the copy verb, and with the editor I'm currently using the clipboard or Save as do the job just fine. Version control? - No need for it either. We use PRC and that takes care of that. It works with SB+ paragraphs and dialog, screen, report writer and field definitions too, which I don't think your editor or Windows Team Foundation Server will. Searching for lines of code in BP? Well, FIND is a bit awkward and I don't fancy Unix commands that much, but I seldom have the need for that either. I wish UniData had the ACC-FIND verb I had on ADDS Mentor, though. And since I don't just type UniBasic code all day I can't see how I could save an hour a day just by using another editor. Testing and figuring out what users really want and how to convert that into code are the most time consuming tasks after all. And hey, I'm on salary and the job always gets done - so where is the saving? They could lower my salary because with the new tool I'll be sitting around twiddling my thumbs for an hour each day of course. Don't give them any ideas! but keep trying :-) Mecki On 29/04/2011 01:01, Doug Averch wrote: Hi Mecki: Whenever we get into discussions about editors, everyone mentions this editor they got for free or this editor they are using from one of those other guys or about the one they just cobbled together editor from EMACS, VIM or Notepad, for instance. Eclipse is a full blown IDE. Eclipse has hundreds of millions of development dollars. Would Brian and I love have that much money to create a specific U2 IDE? Well, we don't have that money and no one is offering it to any of us. How does XLr8Editor make me more efficient? Hmm: Local History: In Eclipse every change made is saved in local history. I keep 200 program changes locally for each program. If I'm changing a program and want to go back to my 10:30am revision or look at the changes I made at 10:30am version against my current version with the built in compare editor. I can. Copy and Past: If I want to copy code or data into another directory or file, I never have to go to telnet or use any other tool because I can copy and paste from within Eclipse. I can copy megabytes per second using the U2 UOJ interface locally faster than you can use the COPY command. Search: If I want to search a program file of 7000 programs for a specific line or segment of code using grep syntax. I issue the search on my local drive without impacting the database server and it comes back faster than ESEARCH. I can do other things while it is searching. Eclipse saves all of my search in history so I don't have to do any of them again. Eclipse displays the matching line of code in the search box, so I have to do is click on and Eclipse opens the editor to that very line. Version Control: Eclipse has built in version control. You can even hookup to Microsoft's Team Foundation Server because Microsoft built an Eclipse plug-in. Maybe Microsoft knows something we should know. There are other version control plug-ins for CVS, Subversion, GIT, and Perforce. If you save an hour a week, at the end of year your savings easily justifies the cost if you programmers are making a $1.00 per hour. Really, is free worth it! Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for the Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Mecki: No Eclipse based tool currently works for SB+. Of the roughly 2.7 million U2 licenses only a small fraction are SB+ shops. Someday Rocket Software will have tool for that was not developed in the 80's for those SB+ shops. There is a big difference between free and open source. XLr8Editor was at one time free and over 700 copies were downloaded. We really do know the difference between free and open source. Eclipse was created by IBM years ago and still has many engineers adding code to the open source project. Additionally, companies like Actuate, Oracle, SAP, Nokia, Motorola, and RIM are members that contribute code. U2logic is not a member of Eclipse.org and does not contribute code to that project. U2logic is not trying to reach SB+ users per se. However, those programmers that slog through code on a daily basis that would like save a hour or two a week not having to fight the software to make software. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based tools for the rest of us ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Thanks Doug for making this point... I was about to, but it opens a whole other can of worms. People don't get the difference. Free doesn't mean what people seem to think. The short answer is most of the licenses usually mean free as in speech, not as in beer. And with so many licenses out there, it gets very confusing. People are making assumptions about free and open source software without looking at the terms they are accepting. Robert Robert F. Porter, MCSE, CCNA, ZCE, OCP-Java Lead Sr. Programmer / Analyst Laboratory Information Services Ochsner Health System This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com 4/29/2011 9:31 AM ( mailto:dave...@gmail.com ) ... There is a big difference between free and open source. XLr8Editor was at one time free and over 700 copies were downloaded. We really do know the difference between free and open source. ... ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Our latest version of SB came as SBXA with a copy of Eclipse SDK. I am just an end user of a VAR product and not a programmer, so I don't know if this means SBXA works with Eclipse. I have been advised that it has not been implemented in our current VAR product. Michael Martin -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:31 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye. Hi Mecki: No Eclipse based tool currently works for SB+. Of the roughly 2.7 million U2 licenses only a small fraction are SB+ shops. Someday Rocket Software will have tool for that was not developed in the 80's for those SB+ shops. There is a big difference between free and open source. XLr8Editor was at one time free and over 700 copies were downloaded. We really do know the difference between free and open source. Eclipse was created by IBM years ago and still has many engineers adding code to the open source project. Additionally, companies like Actuate, Oracle, SAP, Nokia, Motorola, and RIM are members that contribute code. U2logic is not a member of Eclipse.org and does not contribute code to that project. U2logic is not trying to reach SB+ users per se. However, those programmers that slog through code on a daily basis that would like save a hour or two a week not having to fight the software to make software. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based tools for the rest of us ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
On 29/04/11 16:02, Robert Porter wrote: Thanks Doug for making this point... I was about to, but it opens a whole other can of worms. People don't get the difference. Free doesn't mean what people seem to think. The short answer is most of the licenses usually mean free as in speech, not as in beer. And with so many licenses out there, it gets very confusing. People are making assumptions about free and open source software without looking at the terms they are accepting. People tend to say FOSS rather than FLOSS, but I prefer the latter. L for Libre - as in liberated. As far as I am aware, Eclipse is FLOSS. Robert Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Doug Do you really believe staff are more productive if they can play around with skins and colours all day? And I still have to see the office where people use smart phones and tabloids instead of PCs. Fine, maybe the top brass wants to see KPIs and fancy graphics on their toys to show off on the golf course? For that we have tools like Cognos 10 etc., but for the people who do the real work these toys would just be a distraction. Give me a big Monitor screen any time! I have been using some of the so called state-of-the art technologies for some time now and they didn't make my work any easier. To the contrary. The screens may look prettier than SB+ 5.2 GUI and they are browser based, but developing with Sharepoint for instance is boring and very time consuming. Add business logic and the whole thing becomes a nightmare. Presentation isn't everything. Mecki On 28/04/2011 00:13, Doug Averch wrote: Hi Ed: You are focusing to much on the technical side. Users really don't care how we programmers do what we do. Presentation is everything. The ability to change colors or skins on your web site. For example, just look at the Firefox 4 or the new Dell Laptop with interchangeable tops. Another example is Android OS for phones went from market share zero to over 30% today. Android OS did that by form and function just as Apple iPhone has in the last 4 years. We have had a portal for 8 years now. We used open source scriptaculous, but it was not attractive. We use a different tool that caught our users eyes. See our home page at www.u2logic.com. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I am NOT ignoring this. We have all heard (or experienced) the horror stories of companies that went away from a reliable PICK db to something that the new CFO (or whoever) wanted, the implementation was a disaster, went grossly over budget, and in the end, they ended up with a result that was nowhere near what was expected, went back to their original PICK package, or in some cases, the company went under. All because someone higher up the food chain made a call to go with something more industry standard. I understand that the end result did not help the business, but by then, it was too late. The vendors of canned packages out there ought to develop a GUI/web interface to keep their package appealing to those that don't care/understand the db behind it. In a tight race, bells and whistles can make the difference in choosing new software even if in the long run, after really beating on it, it is the poorer choice. I have personally experienced this. Just my opinion. John Israel Senior Programmer/Analyst Dayton Superior Corporation 1125 Byers Road Miamisburg, OH 45342 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:39 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... But you're ignoring the issue that if management goes to a more familiar interface, their business goes bankrupt because it the familiar interface doesn't actually help them run their business and in fact prevents them from running their business. The vendor who wins is the one who impacts the bottom line, not the one who ignores it. That has little to do with the interface type. In a message dated 4/27/2011 10:45:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: This would be a vendor decision to keep their clients (management). Otherwise, as we have all seen, management may make a call to go to something with a more familiar interface. Thus, the vendor looses a client. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Mecki: It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our job. We have given them what Google, Microsoft, Oracle and whomever have. That browser front-end is rich with functionality, easy of use, and can be color customized at a flip of a switch. If we don't give them attractive front-end then the next thing you'll hear will be the door hitting your bottom on the way out. We work with HTML, JavaScript, Java, UOJ, and UniBasic. This is more work: we have five functional pieces of software instead of one. We want our clients and users to have the best we can offer that will allow them to do their job with the software is not getting in their way. What we should be doing is to make changes to software to accommodate differing business needs. With Universe and Unidata databases, we can add dictionary items on the fly, add prompts to screens, and changing report selections, all with in a few hours. The big boys are still gathering requirements and in meetings, when we deliver those requested changes. In order to do this you must have the skill set, training, and state of the art tools. Why do you think a boutique software company like U2logic has been pushing the edge to give the U2 market the finest tools we can? Because we are competing with the big boys who have state of the art tools and are not using AE or ED to create and edit programs. Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know before we actually compile it whether our code will be syntax clean. How is that not making U2 programmers even more productive? Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based XLr8Editor for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Since you can turn off auto compile...this really isn't an issueBUT I could see that as a distraction (programmer dependant), in the sense you are going along writing code, and whamo, you get side tracked on how to figure out what was wrong and how to fix it. Sometimes it's better to not get side tracked with trivial fixes and keep your train of thought on the program, then once your done, put full focus on figuring out why the compile isn't right. I don't know the specifics of the auto compile, but what happens when you start the following: IF SOMETHING THEN I'M NOW TYPING THIS LINE Will the autocompile start barking about a missing END because I havn't gotten there yet, or does it put in the END automatically when it senses the IF if now a block? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 9:57 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye. Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know before we actually compile it whether our code will be syntax clean. How is that not making U2 programmers even more productive? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Agree/Disagree department: While it is CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT that we as programmers SUPPORT GUI for the guys in the trenches that are making the sale that allows us to continue in our trade, it is also PARAMOUNT that all GUI's are just the FRONT DOOR to a robust keystroke oriented human/computer interface that doesn't destroy the INTENT of computers in the first place and cause nightmarish health conditions. Any GUI that forces use of the mouse without AT LEAST OFFERING a manual short cut is just BEGGING for productivity to be reduced by a magnitude in factor, and ignores the fact that the human arm and supporting back muscles did not evolve with the purpose to wave around unsupported in the air for long periods of time. My wife has suffered in absolutely debilitating pain for a decade with mouse shoulder, and all because some SUIT had to have a GUI without thought to the consequences to health or throughput. I type 120 wpm and have been measured on the 10 key at 18,000 kph (keystrokes, not kilometers;-) and while I am a ACE with the mouse/railgun in Quake3Arena, there isn't even a *standard for measuring* mouse effectively that I know of. Now don't get me wrong, GUI is GREAT while a person is being trained, or for low throughput environments, or for making that sale in the field. But GUI cannot compare to the shear speed and incredible accuracy of a well trained keystroke only data entry person. There were days (30 years ago) when I entered 10,000 physical inventory tickets with an accuracy of 1 mistake per 1000 tickets. If I had to use a mouse, I dare say that would have dropped to maybe about 950 - 1000 tickets per day - BUT it would have been a lot prettier. Does speed and accuracy have a place as we move more into the future with bar codes and RF encoders? Maybe not. But we're not there yet especially since small to medium businesses with very manual systems constitute the majority of the dollars distributed in our faltering economy. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:57 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye. Hi Mecki: It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our job. We have given them what Google, Microsoft, Oracle and whomever have. That browser front-end is rich with functionality, easy of use, and can be color customized at a flip of a switch. If we don't give them attractive front-end then the next thing you'll hear will be the door hitting your bottom on the way out. We work with HTML, JavaScript, Java, UOJ, and UniBasic. This is more work: we have five functional pieces of software instead of one. We want our clients and users to have the best we can offer that will allow them to do their job with the software is not getting in their way. What we should be doing is to make changes to software to accommodate differing business needs. With Universe and Unidata databases, we can add dictionary items on the fly, add prompts to screens, and changing report selections, all with in a few hours. The big boys are still gathering requirements and in meetings, when we deliver those requested changes. In order to do this you must have the skill set, training, and state of the art tools. Why do you think a boutique software company like U2logic has been pushing the edge to give the U2 market the finest tools we can? Because we are competing with the big boys who have state of the art tools and are not using AE or ED to create and edit programs. Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know before we actually compile it whether our code will be syntax clean. How is that not making U2 programmers even more productive? Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based XLr8Editor for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hmm, there really is a fundamental lack of understanding going on here. Firstly we are not really talking about GUI in the old sense. A GUI interface on a green screen application is just putting lipstick on a pig. That really isn't what it is about. We have an SB based application and in client GUI mode it is just a 'prettier' version of the character based version, so it arguably looks better but it works the same and it does the same thing as the character application. Is it an improvement? That's arguable and all those supporting the green screen world have a point when up against that sort of interface. But SB GUI is about 15 years old, it is the 'modern interface' of the 1990s not the interface of today. Today's interface is browser based, it is graphical and it does things differently to how they were done 20 years ago. In my world it has opened up a whole new range of opportunities for us to do things that we could not do in the old interfaces. Ways of presenting data and organising information that is genuinely more usable and productive than before plus opening up access to data for people who are remote. This one, in particular, makes a massive difference, running software from anywhere in the world on whatever device you have to hand. Sure, the back office people entering data in a traditional way still will be most productive on a traditional interface, and we still provide that. But organisations are changing, those people are reducing in number and importance, increasingly orders are placed by the customers online, data is updated by the customers online. The thing is that in the U2 world we are good at this, it is stuff we can do (and many of us are doing) really well. That's why U2 is growing. But it demands a shift in mindset from the traditional, it is only once you start working with people who do this stuff that you truly start to see what is possible. Marry good web skills with traditional database expertise and you have a winning combination. You will soon find that they can do things quickly and easily that we don't even dream of in a U2 programming environment, but they we can do things with data that they is way beyond anything they are used to. U2 has a strong future in this world but not amongst those who want to go on doing everything how it has been done before. By all means do that if you want, but your employers or customers will move on even if you do not. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
First, I think they should make the PE versions a bit less crippled and offer then as competitors to Microsoft's express editions and MySQL. If you want to increase the exposure to your database, you're probably not going to do it at $1500 a user license (or whatever it is now). -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Butera Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:29 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwoodaelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Other db's do not do this. mysql, db2, mssql, etc all have another product involved to serve their data to the web. Many older db's do not. However, some newer ones (Cache') have figured out that what Allen is asking for is expected in this day of web 2.0 - so why not build this functionality in? -- Jeff Butera, Ph.D. Manager of ERP Systems Hampshire College jbut...@hampshire.edu 413-559-5556 ...we must choose between what is right and what is easy... Dumbledore ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
George, I whole hardly agree. We we switched to a browser interface for all of our applications it opened up customers that we thought would never be interested in any of our applications products. We have a claims company that does all of its data entry using the browser front-end where we replaced Microsoft's Access database with Unidata. Just the other day a client said: Can you change the color of this hypertext link if there is a note in critical status? In five minutes the program was updated and the client gave us boat load of more changes. Would we have gotten the changes if we could not change the color so quickly? Probably not. But we did get the business because of functionality, flexibility of the database and the user interface. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com 100% Web Applications ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
As I've said before, we cannot continue to code like dinosaurs or we will be extinct as well. The rest of the world has editors that tell you about syntax failures. Why are U2 programmers think they are different? You will have to code like the 20 or 30 year old. Or that person will take you job if you don't get use to the idea of seeing syntax errors as you type. You will learn to type your IF THEN with the END statement before you start typing the meat. I've been using the technology in U2 only for a couple of months now, but I can tell the difference. I do not have a ton of typo's and missing NEXT or END CASE when I finally compile. I believe that my code is cleaner a little less buggy because I had to think a little more while I'm typing. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com XLr8Editor free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
For me the issue comes down to all the free stuff out there just ripe for the pickin'. Integrating any of the Google APIs (Google Charts is a pretty cool API, actually) is easy to do in web programming but is not likely to be something we'll see in SBClient. Maybe with SB/XA they'll do something like that, but XA has its own issues to grow through first. With our database abilities and all this amazing free UI stuff out there, we could conquer the world! But will we? THAT's the question. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Not germane to my argument Will. There are not 2 virtually identical languages called COBOLVERSE and COBOLDATA. fft2...@aol.com wrote: Cobol still exists also. Oh you're on Unidata... well we're discontinuing that product in 2002. In a message dated 4/27/2011 12:40:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jscha...@gmail.com writes: I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is unbelievable considering they have now been owned by one entity (at a time) since 1997. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Maybe it's just me, but I put the web interfaces in between the speed of a character based app (truly the most speedy) and a GUI app (which may be much less so). GUI may be pretty but WOW how it has slowed down the speed of data entry. With web-based entry, I feel we're finally moving back towards the right direction in terms of performance. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
In a message dated 4/28/2011 5:07:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: The vendors of canned packages out there ought to develop a GUI/web interface to keep their package appealing to those that don't care/understand the db behind it. In a tight race, bells and whistles can make the difference in choosing new software even if in the long run, after really beating on it, it is the poorer choice. It's an question of priorities and market worth. If it takes me, the vendor, 200 hours to rewrite my app using a GUI and I can upsell it to four of my ten clients, I may never make back my investment. In a tight race bells and whistles DO make the difference I agree. Pick has traditionally won in races which weren't tight in terms of business solutions. Pick was the best and cheapest and the moat was wide. Is the moat smaller today? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
In a message dated 4/28/2011 9:07:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jscha...@gmail.com writes: Not germane to my argument Will. There are not 2 virtually identical languages called COBOLVERSE and COBOLDATA. Yes my argument is extensible. Why does Cobol still exist? Because there are still companies who wish to continue to run Cobol. Why? Because they are cheap and have no money and have no desire to change. Why does Unidata still exist? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Doug, I think it is very well my job to help staff using my software to be more productive. That's what I at least get paid for! But then I work for an end user and not a software vendor. BTW I hardly ever use ED to edit programs, Brian's mv-developer is so much better. It would be great if UD would come with a decent editor out of the box, though. Or if you could download one from the Rocket website. Not that I wouldn't love to try your shiny new toy - I'm sure I'd love it. But if I would ask my boss to buy an annual license for a fancy new editor he would ask me to justify the extra cost. And I think I would have real problems trying to do that. I can understand that you are very proud of your product. So would I, but I still can't really see the benefit for me personally. When I edit Visual Basic code for instance, I am grateful to have an editor that does not only show me when I make typos, it also makes suggestions and completes code for me. It's great because I am not very familiar with VB and there are so many methods and unfamiliar syntax. But writing UniBasic it would probably drive me nuts. And that is because I know what I am doing and exactly what and how I want to write it. I don't need some smart-ass piece of software trying to tell me how to do my job and probably be wrong half of the time. But at least you can turn it off. I more and more use so called state-of-the-art tools like Cognos or Sharepoint as well, but more often than not I find them not as productive and intuitive as the sales hype claims them to be. Especially having to use the mouse and open and close new windows all the time can be very time consuming, repetitive and outright boring. Highlight the field, go to the properties window, click on the such-and-such field (of course you have to scroll up or down to get there half the time), click on the arrow and select one of the options or double click on the dots and another window opens... And then it still doesn't do what you expect because you have to click on something else on the toolbar, open another window, open the such-and-such tab and... But then half of the time it still doesn't work and you have to start from scratch. At least changing the colour or skin on the finished product only takes a couple of minutes :-) . Mecki On 28/04/2011 14:57, Doug Averch wrote: Hi Mecki: It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our job. We have given them what Google, Microsoft, Oracle and whomever have. That browser front-end is rich with functionality, easy of use, and can be color customized at a flip of a switch. If we don't give them attractive front-end then the next thing you'll hear will be the door hitting your bottom on the way out. We work with HTML, JavaScript, Java, UOJ, and UniBasic. This is more work: we have five functional pieces of software instead of one. We want our clients and users to have the best we can offer that will allow them to do their job with the software is not getting in their way. What we should be doing is to make changes to software to accommodate differing business needs. With Universe and Unidata databases, we can add dictionary items on the fly, add prompts to screens, and changing report selections, all with in a few hours. The big boys are still gathering requirements and in meetings, when we deliver those requested changes. In order to do this you must have the skill set, training, and state of the art tools. Why do you think a boutique software company like U2logic has been pushing the edge to give the U2 market the finest tools we can? Because we are competing with the big boys who have state of the art tools and are not using AE or ED to create and edit programs. Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know before we actually compile it whether our code will be syntax clean. How is that not making U2 programmers even more productive? Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based XLr8Editor for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Speaking of editors, why did UD/UV not ever adopt John's JET product ? It was at least a decade ahead, in terms of full screen editing. BTW I hardly ever use ED to edit programs, Brian's mv-developer is so much better. It would be great if UD would come with a decent editor out of the box, though. -Original Message- From: Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2011 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye. Hi Doug, I think it is very well my job to help staff using my software to be more productive. That's what I at least get paid for! But then I work for an end user and not a software vendor. BTW I hardly ever use ED to edit programs, Brian's mv-developer is so much better. It would be great if UD would come with a decent editor out of the box, though. Or if you could download one from the Rocket website. Not that I wouldn't love to try your shiny new toy - I'm sure I'd love it. But if I would ask my boss to buy an annual license for a fancy new editor he would ask me to justify the extra cost. And I think I would have real problems trying to do that. I can understand that you are very proud of your product. So would I, but I still can't really see the benefit for me personally. When I edit Visual Basic code for instance, I am grateful to have an editor that does not only show me when I make typos, it also makes suggestions and completes code for me. It's great because I am not very familiar with VB and there are so many methods and unfamiliar syntax. But writing UniBasic it would probably drive me nuts. And that is because I know what I am doing and exactly what and how I want to write it. I don't need some smart-ass piece of software trying to tell me how to do my job and probably be wrong half of the time. But at least you can turn it off. I more and more use so called state-of-the-art tools like Cognos or Sharepoint as well, but more often than not I find them not as productive and intuitive as the sales hype claims them to be. Especially having to use the mouse and open and close new windows all the time can be very time consuming, repetitive and outright boring. Highlight the field, go to the properties window, click on the such-and-such field (of course you have to scroll up or down to get there half the time), click on the arrow and select one of the options or double click on the dots and another window opens... And then it still doesn't do what you expect because you have to click on something else on the toolbar, open another window, open the such-and-such tab and... But then half of the time it still doesn't work and you have to start from scratch. At least changing the colour or skin on the finished product only takes a couple of minutes :-) . Mecki On 28/04/2011 14:57, Doug Averch wrote: Hi Mecki: It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our job. We have given them what Google, Microsoft, Oracle and whomever have. That browser front-end is rich with functionality, easy of use, and can be color customized at a flip of a switch. If we don't give them attractive front-end then the next thing you'll hear will be the door hitting your bottom on the way out. We work with HTML, JavaScript, Java, UOJ, and UniBasic. This is more work: we have five functional pieces of software instead of one. We want our clients and users to have the best we can offer that will allow them to do their job with the software is not getting in their way. What we should be doing is to make changes to software to accommodate differing business needs. With Universe and Unidata databases, we can add dictionary items on the fly, add prompts to screens, and changing report selections, all with in a few hours. The big boys are still gathering requirements and in meetings, when we deliver those requested changes. In order to do this you must have the skill set, training, and state of the art tools. Why do you think a boutique software company like U2logic has been pushing the edge to give the U2 market the finest tools we can? Because we are competing with the big boys who have state of the art tools and are not using AE or ED to create and edit programs. Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know before we actually compile it whether our code will be syntax clean. How is that not making U2 programmers even more productive? Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Eclipse based XLr8Editor for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Come on George, if GUI is putting on lipstick on green screen then browser enabled is putting eye shadow and mascara on GUI. 90% of an application consists of code running behind the interface, like validations, calculations and file/table updates aka business logic. There are no tools out there that generate business logic for you yet. Many have tried but nobody has succeeded. And as far as I am concerned you would be hard pressed to come up with something better than UniBasic for writing business logic. Organizing information through an interface? Sorry, but don't you use databases with tables or files to organize your data? When you talk about presenting data, I agree, the web opens a whole new range of possibilities. If it is reporting - there are plenty of products out there - no need to knit your own. And presenting data through web pages to customers or suppliers or even letting them enter or transmit data is not rocket science either (pun intended). I wouldn't want outsiders to enter data over the internet using the same processes as in-house staff, though. This would need to be a totally different interface in any case. Different look-ups for instance, no discount or price override and totally different credentials. I wouldn't let outsiders anywhere near my U2 server either. They should stay outside the firewall, where they belong! This should be a piece of cake to bolt onto any existing application. On the other hand would you want order entry staff to use web pages with shopping basket and pop-ups instead of the good old order entry screen? Maybe it looks pretty but I doubt it's very productive. You want to make a web page out of the old green or GUI screen? Fine, knock yourself out if somebody is willing to pay for it. I can understand that you got frustrated interviewing colleagues who still think GUI is devil's work and the web is only for porn. You are right, there are plenty of those around, and I have and had to work with quite a few of them too. But I don't think the attitude of most graduates is much better, who think that they can develop applications by creating fancy screens alone. I have worked with quite a few of those too. But I have to admit - they are a dime a dozen. Question is, can they deliver anything else but pretty screens? Mecki On 28/04/2011 16:07, George Land wrote: Hmm, there really is a fundamental lack of understanding going on here. Firstly we are not really talking about GUI in the old sense. A GUI interface on a green screen application is just putting lipstick on a pig. That really isn't what it is about. We have an SB based application and in client GUI mode it is just a 'prettier' version of the character based version, so it arguably looks better but it works the same and it does the same thing as the character application. Is it an improvement? That's arguable and all those supporting the green screen world have a point when up against that sort of interface. But SB GUI is about 15 years old, it is the 'modern interface' of the 1990s not the interface of today. Today's interface is browser based, it is graphical and it does things differently to how they were done 20 years ago. In my world it has opened up a whole new range of opportunities for us to do things that we could not do in the old interfaces. Ways of presenting data and organising information that is genuinely more usable and productive than before plus opening up access to data for people who are remote. This one, in particular, makes a massive difference, running software from anywhere in the world on whatever device you have to hand. Sure, the back office people entering data in a traditional way still will be most productive on a traditional interface, and we still provide that. But organisations are changing, those people are reducing in number and importance, increasingly orders are placed by the customers online, data is updated by the customers online. The thing is that in the U2 world we are good at this, it is stuff we can do (and many of us are doing) really well. That's why U2 is growing. But it demands a shift in mindset from the traditional, it is only once you start working with people who do this stuff that you truly start to see what is possible. Marry good web skills with traditional database expertise and you have a winning combination. You will soon find that they can do things quickly and easily that we don't even dream of in a U2 programming environment, but they we can do things with data that they is way beyond anything they are used to. U2 has a strong future in this world but not amongst those who want to go on doing everything how it has been done before. By all means do that if you want, but your employers or customers will move on even if you do not. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
HI Jake A work group license is A$570 David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Mecki: Whenever we get into discussions about editors, everyone mentions this editor they got for free or this editor they are using from one of those other guys or about the one they just cobbled together editor from EMACS, VIM or Notepad, for instance. Eclipse is a full blown IDE. Eclipse has hundreds of millions of development dollars. Would Brian and I love have that much money to create a specific U2 IDE? Well, we don't have that money and no one is offering it to any of us. How does XLr8Editor make me more efficient? Hmm: Local History: In Eclipse every change made is saved in local history. I keep 200 program changes locally for each program. If I'm changing a program and want to go back to my 10:30am revision or look at the changes I made at 10:30am version against my current version with the built in compare editor. I can. Copy and Past: If I want to copy code or data into another directory or file, I never have to go to telnet or use any other tool because I can copy and paste from within Eclipse. I can copy megabytes per second using the U2 UOJ interface locally faster than you can use the COPY command. Search: If I want to search a program file of 7000 programs for a specific line or segment of code using grep syntax. I issue the search on my local drive without impacting the database server and it comes back faster than ESEARCH. I can do other things while it is searching. Eclipse saves all of my search in history so I don't have to do any of them again. Eclipse displays the matching line of code in the search box, so I have to do is click on and Eclipse opens the editor to that very line. Version Control: Eclipse has built in version control. You can even hookup to Microsoft's Team Foundation Server because Microsoft built an Eclipse plug-in. Maybe Microsoft knows something we should know. There are other version control plug-ins for CVS, Subversion, GIT, and Perforce. If you save an hour a week, at the end of year your savings easily justifies the cost if you programmers are making a $1.00 per hour. Really, is free worth it! Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for the Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Say what!? The maximum count for a WG license is 24. It comes with device licensing included. The dealer cost is something like $225/user or $5,400 for a full license. Considering you can get a CPU license of SQL Server Standard for this kind of money, this isn't cheap! And it's the cheapest of the U2 line. :-o So, I guess you're talking about, what, one user...retail? Bill - Original Message - *From:* da...@dacono.com.au *To:* U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 4/28/2011 4:38 PM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... HI Jake A work group license is A$570 David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
You might also get rid of short sighted VAR's that have discovered they can make a majority of their revenue converting U2 customers to other platforms. Jerry On 4/26/2011 4:50 PM, David Jordan wrote: Have people who criticised U2 interfaces actually worked with other database applications. Remember the joke What hardware and operating system doe Oracle best run on, a projector and powerpoint. Too much of the competitors' products are gloss and when it comes to writing applications they become a chain and ball. When I look at competitor applications they have pretty interfaces but lack substance. I beat competitors from major companies because I provide functionality at a price that leaves the others for dead. Clients are starting to question the gloss and are looking for substance. As I have said in previous emails, it is not about the technology, it is about how it is sold. We have an Australian U2 GL package that kicked SAP out of a site, it is not impossible. For too long U2 has sold it self, however due to competition, we need to apply more money to marketing and sales people. Marketing budgets of some of the competitors are well over 20%-40% of revenue, few U2 application vendors spend anywhere near that much. Marketing statistics identified that optimists outsold pessimists. If you think U2 is not up to scratch with the competitor, then how are you going to convince the customer. Rethink how you look at U2 compared to other databases and it will change the discussions with senior management. Senior management are on bonuses and they do not get paid for buying brands they get paid for delivering results, you need to demonstrate how U2 improves their bonuses and you are in. Of course there is room for improvement in U2 products and Rocket is working on them, but uniobjects is still one of the most efficient and effective APIs that I have worked with and you can easily add gloss to tired applications with a range of client tools including .Net, java, etc. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Have people who criticised U2 interfaces actually worked with other database applications. Remember the joke What hardware and operating system doe Oracle best run on, a projector and powerpoint. Too much of the competitors' products are gloss and when it comes to writing applications they become a chain and ball. When I look at competitor applications they have pretty interfaces but lack substance. I beat competitors from major companies because I provide functionality at a price that leaves the others for dead. Clients are starting to question the gloss and are looking for substance. As I have said in previous emails, it is not about the technology, it is about how it is sold. We have an Australian U2 GL package that kicked SAP out of a site, it is not impossible. For too long U2 has sold it self, however due to competition, we need to apply more money to marketing and sales people. Marketing budgets of some of the competitors are well over 20%-40% of revenue, few U2 application vendors spend anywhere near that much. Marketing statistics identified that optimists outsold pessimists. If you think U2 is not up to scratch with the competitor, then how are you going to convince the customer. Rethink how you look at U2 compared to other databases and it will change the discussions with senior management. Senior management are on bonuses and they do not get paid for buying brands they get paid for delivering results, you need to demonstrate how U2 improves their bonuses and you are in. Of course there is room for improvement in U2 products and Rocket is working on them, but uniobjects is still one of the most efficient and effective APIs that I have worked with and you can easily add gloss to tired applications with a range of client tools including .Net, java, etc. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Make them awesome. flame The problem is not the maturity of the interfaces, but the maturity of the developer community. Too many Pick programmers see the latest technology as here today, gone tomorrow so they are not inspired to learn it, much less create feature-rich software that implements it. That's not to say that some of the more vocal developers on this list do not use modern technologies, but I think the critical mass still thinks green screen is faster = better software. Software development is about making the USER awesome at what they do. There are a lot ways to do that, but ignoring newer technologies because they may be replaced tomorrow is just retarded. You don't create web apps because you have no clue how to write HTML, CSS, and javascript. You don't create GUI apps because haven't spent the time to learn Visual Whatever. Stop treating every problem like a nail because you only have a hammer in your toolbox. /flame Make them (the users) awesome, and we won't have to worry about leaving U2, or its marketing, or whether the VP's on the golf course are talking about SAP. With awesome users, the VP's will be talking about how they can extend their U2 applications. rex ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
If you start running into performance issues (which with CGI and any type of volume is quite possible), and a re-write is out of the question, look into mod_perl. It can help a lot! The O'Reilly mod_perl book is now under Creative Commons license, so you don't even have to buy it anymore... http://modperlbook.org/ From the preface: mod_perl is an Apache module that builds the power of the Perl programming language directly into the Apache web server. With mod_perl, CGI scripts run as much as 50 times faster, and you can integrate databases with the server, write Apache modules in Perl, embed Perl code directly into Apache configuration files, and even use Perl in server-side includes. With mod_perl, Apache is not only a web server, it is a complete programming platform. Robert Robert F. Porter, MCSE, CCNA, ZCE, OCP-Java Lead Sr. Programmer / Analyst Laboratory Information Services Ochsner Health System This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com 4/26/2011 3:29 PM We have been using web services recently to allow UV to play nice with a couple of other servers. Using XML as the output format. I have it setup to accept either XML input or parameters (POST) or parameters for input (GET). I currently use a perl .cgi as my gateway/interface between APACHE and UV What's nice is no one really knows what's behind the curtain, just that it works. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Hester Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... We just unveiled a new web 2.0 site last month that we're all very proud of around here. It makes extensive use of AJAX, jQuery, a lot of fancy CSS, and UniVerse on the back end. Maybe we could have done something like this using a more typical web backend database like mySQL, but I think it would have been much more difficult. Because UV is also the core of all our backend operations, we're able to do things like display ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
thanks. I'll look into it. Right now, traffic is minimal so it's not a problem. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Porter Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:00 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... If you start running into performance issues (which with CGI and any type of volume is quite possible), and a re-write is out of the question, look into mod_perl. It can help a lot! The O'Reilly mod_perl book is now under Creative Commons license, so you don't even have to buy it anymore... http://modperlbook.org/ From the preface: ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI interface with SB leaves things to be desired. We are locked into whatever our vendor supports - writing our oun interface for a large ERP system will simply never happen (thus the vendor is cutting their throat as well as ours), and I see no interest on their end to make this happen. -- Sent using BlackBerry - Original Message - From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue Apr 26 16:38:50 2011 Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Kevin The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options It's not often I disagree with you, but here I must.. We don't lack mature interfaces. We have UO.Net; UOJ; web services - now both XML and JSON; WebDE - not to mention third party alternatives. Without even mentioning OleDb, ODBC, JDBC, ADO.Net .. I've been programming Windows since before Microsoft bought VB, most of my work is in Windows or Web and I earn my crust on both U2 and SQL Server. In my limited time I've used VB, Delphi, C#, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET and even java - urgh - all with U2. With that in mind I have to say that UniObjects is the best API I have ever worked with, bar none. It offers a clean, fast interface that other models just can't compete with and for any business logic the U2 subroutine is king. Give me U2 basic and UO or WebDE over the likes of ADO.NET and SQL any day, however you dress it up. There is no reason other than lack of ambition for U2 applications to look old. The technology is there, and has been there for a decade. Let's stop talking it down. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
While we are on that subject - i have been using jquery and jquery ui for a while now but recently used sencha touch for a mobile web app, they have a fantastic javascript ui library as well - http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/examples/ -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Hester Sent: 27 April 2011 03:03 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Thanks, Kevin! Yes, we were repeatedly amazed by jQuery during the development process. We found a way to handle pretty much every cool gui function the design dept. threw at us. The other free tool I was really impressed with was DWR (Direct Web Remoting) for AJAX. You just include their library in your code, set up an XML config file, and then start calling servlet methods from your pages as if they were local javascript functions. I highly recommend it for anyone looking to implement AJAX functionality for the 1st time: http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html -John -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:33 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... John, just spent a couple minutes on the site. Nice job! Isn't jQuery just amazing? -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3598 - Release Date: 04/26/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I find it interesting that Karl's original post (just recently quoted) was from May 2010: On Behalf Of Karl Pearson Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Wally Terhune U2 Support Architect Rocket Software 4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 **USA Tel: +1.720.475.8055 Email: wterh...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 I ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI interface with SB leaves things to be desired. We are locked into whatever our vendor supports - writing our oun interface for a large ERP system will simply never happen (thus the vendor is cutting their throat as well as ours), and I see no interest on their end to make this happen. If the canned package does everything your *business* needs to be successful, then why would anyone want to upset that business requirement, just to make it look pretty ? See how much money you can spend on a pretty interface that doesn't move your bottom line into the black, but rather into the red ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
This would be a vendor decision to keep their clients (management). Otherwise, as we have all seen, management may make a call to go to something with a more familiar interface. Thus, the vendor looses a client. I was not suggesting WE rewrite this. Has anyone ever used the conversion tool to convert an SB application to HTML? I have heard of it, but have never heard of anyone actually doing it. John -- Sent using BlackBerry - Original Message - From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed Apr 27 13:36:04 2011 Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI interface with SB leaves things to be desired. We are locked into whatever our vendor supports - writing our oun interface for a large ERP system will simply never happen (thus the vendor is cutting their throat as well as ours), and I see no interest on their end to make this happen. If the canned package does everything your *business* needs to be successful, then why would anyone want to upset that business requirement, just to make it look pretty ? See how much money you can spend on a pretty interface that doesn't move your bottom line into the black, but rather into the red ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Hey, we went to the MOON with a pocket calculator as the main cpu, ya? I'm just saying, compared to that So, like, pick ran on pick o/s written in assembly. But now U2 runs on a C+ pick emulator. So use the power of that base language to make the connections, and just stick in new extensions for U2. And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I know it's *not* asking much. ;-) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm with Symeon, if this were Facebook I'd like George Land's comment. But that brings me to my point: We need to be the ones creating the next Facebook or whatever that is. Until our applications fully embrace web technology as a primary infrastructure instead of a bolt-on to green screen applications, we'll always be thought of as old school. The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options, and fortunately, there is some attention being given to that issue. The question that remains is whether the lot of us can break out of a lifetime of green-screen mentality to embrace and thrive in this brave new world? And as to dot-net... why complicate the hell out of a good thing like the web? :) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Allen, I believe it's possible but for one significant stumbling block: threads. And given that we're not likely to get native thread support in U2, I think closely integrating U2 into something like Apache (which does support threading) could be a Very Good Thing. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Increasingly a mature interface does cost money. There are several issues: 1. Training, using our SB based GUI client interface people need to be trained to do a lookup with F3, to use tab and enter in particular ways and so on. With our web interface people can, in the main, just use it with very little training. 2. Breadth of use - it follows on from 1, a lot more people within our customers use our software now it is web based. Two reasons for that, firstly they can, instead of buying a database license for each user they buy connection pooled licenses so there is potential to support a larger user base for the money. Even without that you get a larger user base because the software is easier to use, people get information themselves rather than asking others to get it for them. 3. Speed of use - we do autocomplete drop downs a lot, people can start typing and get a matching values, much quicker (if designed properly) than having to know or find the value to enter. Essentially the point here is that there are a lot more UI options you can use. 4. Greater functionality - look at a person's record, click to view their address on a map, click to get the directions to that place. 5. Flexibility of use - access the same software using an iPad over 3G as you use in the office from your PC. Run it on a Mac, a PC, a phone, a tablet, anything that runs a browser. The issues are real, it's not just about the application looking pretty it's about being able to do a whole range of stuff and improve the effectiveness of a range of users and so save or make the customer money. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor On 27/04/2011 18:36, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI interface with SB leaves things to be desired. We are locked into whatever our vendor supports - writing our oun interface for a large ERP system will simply never happen (thus the vendor is cutting their throat as well as ours), and I see no interest on their end to make this happen. If the canned package does everything your *business* needs to be successful, then why would anyone want to upset that business requirement, just to make it look pretty ? See how much money you can spend on a pretty interface that doesn't move your bottom line into the black, but rather into the red ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Well, SB/XA takes your SB application so that it can run in a browser. That's not converting it to html, it's still working like a client application but it is in a browser and accessible from anywhere. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor On 27/04/2011 18:45, Israel, John R. johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com wrote: This would be a vendor decision to keep their clients (management). Otherwise, as we have all seen, management may make a call to go to something with a more familiar interface. Thus, the vendor looses a client. I was not suggesting WE rewrite this. Has anyone ever used the conversion tool to convert an SB application to HTML? I have heard of it, but have never heard of anyone actually doing it. John -- Sent using BlackBerry - Original Message - From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed Apr 27 13:36:04 2011 Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI interface with SB leaves things to be desired. We are locked into whatever our vendor supports - writing our oun interface for a large ERP system will simply never happen (thus the vendor is cutting their throat as well as ours), and I see no interest on their end to make this happen. If the canned package does everything your *business* needs to be successful, then why would anyone want to upset that business requirement, just to make it look pretty ? See how much money you can spend on a pretty interface that doesn't move your bottom line into the black, but rather into the red ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwood aelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Other db's do not do this. mysql, db2, mssql, etc all have another product involved to serve their data to the web. And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I don't understand this. How many os's do you have installed? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwoodaelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Other db's do not do this. mysql, db2, mssql, etc all have another product involved to serve their data to the web. Many older db's do not. However, some newer ones (Cache') have figured out that what Allen is asking for is expected in this day of web 2.0 - so why not build this functionality in? -- Jeff Butera, Ph.D. Manager of ERP Systems Hampshire College jbut...@hampshire.edu 413-559-5556 ...we must choose between what is right and what is easy... Dumbledore ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Interviewing late last year I got a series of applications from unemployed long term mv programmers. Several of them had been contracting for years, being paid a lot of money (in some case twice what we were offering) to work on green screen applications in basic. They lacked what I would call simple IT skills, one said that he had been teaching himself new skills by networking together two PCs at home, which he had found 'challenging'. Now I'm not saying that all long term mv programmers are like that, but quite a number are and they will struggle. We do a lot of our work in java and html and increasingly even our database people need to be web savvy. Speaking as a 28 year mv veteran myself, I know how hard it is to adapt to this new world but equally I recognise the need. Increasingly we are finding it easier to recruit web and java skilled people and teach them what they need to know about U2, much quicker and cheaper than taking veterans who expect their experience to mean they are paid a lot of money and who struggle to understand what we are talking about when we say XML, REST, http GET POST etc. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor On 27/04/2011 15:33, Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com wrote: Make them awesome. flame The problem is not the maturity of the interfaces, but the maturity of the developer community. Too many Pick programmers see the latest technology as here today, gone tomorrow so they are not inspired to learn it, much less create feature-rich software that implements it. That's not to say that some of the more vocal developers on this list do not use modern technologies, but I think the critical mass still thinks green screen is faster = better software. Software development is about making the USER awesome at what they do. There are a lot ways to do that, but ignoring newer technologies because they may be replaced tomorrow is just retarded. You don't create web apps because you have no clue how to write HTML, CSS, and javascript. You don't create GUI apps because haven't spent the time to learn Visual Whatever. Stop treating every problem like a nail because you only have a hammer in your toolbox. /flame Make them (the users) awesome, and we won't have to worry about leaving U2, or its marketing, or whether the VP's on the golf course are talking about SAP. With awesome users, the VP's will be talking about how they can extend their U2 applications. rex ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Jeffrey Butera jbut...@hampshire.edu wrote: On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwoodaelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Other db's do not do this. mysql, db2, mssql, etc all have another product involved to serve their data to the web. Many older db's do not. However, some newer ones (Cache') have figured out that what Allen is asking for is expected in this day of web 2.0 - so why not build this functionality in? For the same reason I do not buy AllInOne pc's or DVD-TV combos. I prefer a modular approach where you have some choices in the technology being used. If Rocket came back and said, The new interface is only in Erlang how many would cheer? Not many. Granted Erlang is good, and rock solid, and powers some very good software applications. DB vendors have very little reason to be in web2.0. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Imagine you have a really cool product written in Unidata. Would it not be equally cool to be able to sell it to someone running Universe and the smart_O_S (Rocket sos?) would understand it's a Unidata program and execute that p-code interpreter instead of the Universe one? No porting involved... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:22 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I don't understand this. How many os's do you have installed? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Or we could just get rid of the vastly inferior Unidata product and go forward with the original incarnation of Prime Information on Unix, Universe. Its a joke. Calm down. I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is unbelievable considering they have now been owned by one entity (at a time) since 1997. Allen E. Elwood wrote: Imagine you have a really cool product written in Unidata. Would it not be equally cool to be able to sell it to someone running Universe and the smart_O_S (Rocket sos?) would understand it's a Unidata program and execute that p-code interpreter instead of the Universe one? No porting involved... -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Would that be UniUniVerse? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Allen E. Elwood Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:28 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Imagine you have a really cool product written in Unidata. Would it not be equally cool to be able to sell it to someone running Universe and the smart_O_S (Rocket sos?) would understand it's a Unidata program and execute that p-code interpreter instead of the Universe one? No porting involved... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:22 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I don't understand this. How many os's do you have installed? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Garry L. Smith Dir Info Systems Charles McMurray Company V# 559-292-5782 F# 559-346-6169 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:29 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Would that be UniUniVerse? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Allen E. Elwood Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:28 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Imagine you have a really cool product written in Unidata. Would it not be equally cool to be able to sell it to someone running Universe and the smart_O_S (Rocket sos?) would understand it's a Unidata program and execute that p-code interpreter instead of the Universe one? No porting involved... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:22 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I don't understand this. How many os's do you have installed? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
15 years ago I had a web server written mostly in universe running on unix. A small piece of C code ran as a demon on port 80, set up some environment variables, and forked a process that executed uv. The uv process served the httpd request using mostly basic. I had some GCI code linked into uv to handle some things that couldn't be done in basic. For https I used openSSL (it wasn't called that yet I don't think)--the only significant piece that was really outside of universe. It wasn't super-fast--the uv process didn't start quickly, and it was bogged down some by lack of multithreading, but it worked and we did a lot with it. The technology was there then, and there's more there now. On Apr 27, 2011, at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwood wrote: I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists. Hey, we went to the MOON with a pocket calculator as the main cpu, ya? I'm just saying, compared to that So, like, pick ran on pick o/s written in assembly. But now U2 runs on a C+ pick emulator. So use the power of that base language to make the connections, and just stick in new extensions for U2. And, while I'm at it, why can't we run Universe and Unidata programs with only one installed o/s? I know it's *not* asking much. ;-) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm with Symeon, if this were Facebook I'd like George Land's comment. But that brings me to my point: We need to be the ones creating the next Facebook or whatever that is. Until our applications fully embrace web technology as a primary infrastructure instead of a bolt-on to green screen applications, we'll always be thought of as old school. The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options, and fortunately, there is some attention being given to that issue. The question that remains is whether the lot of us can break out of a lifetime of green-screen mentality to embrace and thrive in this brave new world? And as to dot-net... why complicate the hell out of a good thing like the web? :) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Ed: You are focusing to much on the technical side. Users really don't care how we programmers do what we do. Presentation is everything. The ability to change colors or skins on your web site. For example, just look at the Firefox 4 or the new Dell Laptop with interchangeable tops. Another example is Android OS for phones went from market share zero to over 30% today. Android OS did that by form and function just as Apple iPhone has in the last 4 years. We have had a portal for 8 years now. We used open source scriptaculous, but it was not attractive. We use a different tool that caught our users eyes. See our home page at www.u2logic.com. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
But you're ignoring the issue that if management goes to a more familiar interface, their business goes bankrupt because it the familiar interface doesn't actually help them run their business and in fact prevents them from running their business. The vendor who wins is the one who impacts the bottom line, not the one who ignores it. That has little to do with the interface type. In a message dated 4/27/2011 10:45:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes: This would be a vendor decision to keep their clients (management). Otherwise, as we have all seen, management may make a call to go to something with a more familiar interface. Thus, the vendor looses a client. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Cobol still exists also. Oh you're on Unidata... well we're discontinuing that product in 2002. In a message dated 4/27/2011 12:40:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jscha...@gmail.com writes: I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is unbelievable considering they have now been owned by one entity (at a time) since 1997. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show management that we have the skill set to Innovate or Die. Secondly, we have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not done anything to show them what can be done. Presentation is everything. Show the managers and owners what U2 software can do using browser based technology or Microsoft's .NET. When every I visit a client or prospective client I tell them and show them what innovations we are doing or will be doing. This is so when a sales person from Oracle or SAP come to their office and try to sell them, I have already closed that door. I bring my XLr8Editor on a thumb drive to every client to show them, I am not editing program via a DOS line by line editor. U2logic tools are state of the art with innovations like continuous compile that make me more efficient and my code less buggy. Can AE/ED editor say that? Of course not. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Ah but the VP's make their SAP decisions at Pebble Beach where only VP's and CEO's roam and where inexpensive and effective are synonymous with cheap and untrustworthy. Political decisions have nothing to do with reality or budgets since it's just another notch on the resume before their next planned exodus stage left; to hell with the consequences. Sadly Failing Upwards was not coined only irony's sake. These ARE the people that buy the $6400 toilets. We can't reason with that logic (sic). -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 7:53 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show management that we have the skill set to Innovate or Die. Secondly, we have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not done anything to show them what can be done. Presentation is everything. Show the managers and owners what U2 software can do using browser based technology or Microsoft's .NET. When every I visit a client or prospective client I tell them and show them what innovations we are doing or will be doing. This is so when a sales person from Oracle or SAP come to their office and try to sell them, I have already closed that door. I bring my XLr8Editor on a thumb drive to every client to show them, I am not editing program via a DOS line by line editor. U2logic tools are state of the art with innovations like continuous compile that make me more efficient and my code less buggy. Can AE/ED editor say that? Of course not. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Doug, I think you make an excellent point about too many in the U2 space that fail to show what the technology can do and obsolete themselves and the product in the process. In today's world of smart phones, tablets and the web, green screen apps just don't cut it.These 'saying goodbye' letters should be a call to arms for all U2 developers. Change or get eaten.Embrace .Net and web... Mike Randall -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:53 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show management that we have the skill set to Innovate or Die. Secondly, we have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not done anything to show them what can be done. Presentation is everything. Show the managers and owners what U2 software can do using browser based technology or Microsoft's .NET. When every I visit a client or prospective client I tell them and show them what innovations we are doing or will be doing. This is so when a sales person from Oracle or SAP come to their office and try to sell them, I have already closed that door. I bring my XLr8Editor on a thumb drive to every client to show them, I am not editing program via a DOS line by line editor. U2logic tools are state of the art with innovations like continuous compile that make me more efficient and my code less buggy. Can AE/ED editor say that? Of course not. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
As I've said before, U2 is growing, there was double digit sales growth last year. But it is also changing, end users are increasingly not employing programmers of any sort. Software development is more and more a function of software companies with end user companies running what they buy. The U2 based software that is being sold is unrecognisable from the green screen apps of old, it is all about web integration, smartphones, tablets, good looking and easily usable UIs. We have a platform on which we can do that easier than most other technologies, but it's about new skills blended with U2, pure U2 doesn't cut it any more. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor On 26/04/2011 17:57, Mike Randall mike.rand...@comcast.net wrote: Doug, I think you make an excellent point about too many in the U2 space that fail to show what the technology can do and obsolete themselves and the product in the process. In today's world of smart phones, tablets and the web, green screen apps just don't cut it.These 'saying goodbye' letters should be a call to arms for all U2 developers. Change or get eaten.Embrace .Net and web... Mike Randall -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:53 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show management that we have the skill set to Innovate or Die. Secondly, we have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not done anything to show them what can be done. Presentation is everything. Show the managers and owners what U2 software can do using browser based technology or Microsoft's .NET. When every I visit a client or prospective client I tell them and show them what innovations we are doing or will be doing. This is so when a sales person from Oracle or SAP come to their office and try to sell them, I have already closed that door. I bring my XLr8Editor on a thumb drive to every client to show them, I am not editing program via a DOS line by line editor. U2logic tools are state of the art with innovations like continuous compile that make me more efficient and my code less buggy. Can AE/ED editor say that? Of course not. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
If this was facebook I would click like. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Mike Randall Sent: 26 April 2011 17:58 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Doug, I think you make an excellent point about too many in the U2 space that fail to show what the technology can do and obsolete themselves and the product in the process. In today's world of smart phones, tablets and the web, green screen apps just don't cut it.These 'saying goodbye' letters should be a call to arms for all U2 developers. Change or get eaten.Embrace .Net and web... Mike Randall -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:53 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show management that we have the skill set to Innovate or Die. Secondly, we have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not done anything to show them what can be done. Presentation is everything. Show the managers and owners what U2 software can do using browser based technology or Microsoft's .NET. When every I visit a client or prospective client I tell them and show them what innovations we are doing or will be doing. This is so when a sales person from Oracle or SAP come to their office and try to sell them, I have already closed that door. I bring my XLr8Editor on a thumb drive to every client to show them, I am not editing program via a DOS line by line editor. U2logic tools are state of the art with innovations like continuous compile that make me more efficient and my code less buggy. Can AE/ED editor say that? Of course not. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html Free trials available ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3597 - Release Date: 04/25/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
it is all about web integration, smartphones, tablets, good looking and easily usable UIs. We have a platform on which we can do that easier than most other technologies, but it's about new skills blended with U2, pure U2 doesn't cut it any more. Well said. Rocket needs to create a development kit for mobil devices and then give it away to everybody who will take it. That sounds counter intuitive, but look at Microsoft. I was a charter member of the MSDN. It was free at first. Gates understood that it is all about the applications. His goal at that point was to get people developing with his tools. And it worked. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
What? No U2 Cloud? --B ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Pick a cloud, any cloud! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman What? No U2 Cloud? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Actually, I'd think the Cloud would be a natrual. We already have the Rocket! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 2:02 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Pick a cloud, any cloud! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman What? No U2 Cloud? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'm with Symeon, if this were Facebook I'd like George Land's comment. But that brings me to my point: We need to be the ones creating the next Facebook or whatever that is. Until our applications fully embrace web technology as a primary infrastructure instead of a bolt-on to green screen applications, we'll always be thought of as old school. The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options, and fortunately, there is some attention being given to that issue. The question that remains is whether the lot of us can break out of a lifetime of green-screen mentality to embrace and thrive in this brave new world? And as to dot-net... why complicate the hell out of a good thing like the web? :) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
And as to dot-net... why complicate the hell out of a good thing like the web? :) Amen, Brother. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
We just unveiled a new web 2.0 site last month that we're all very proud of around here. It makes extensive use of AJAX, jQuery, a lot of fancy CSS, and UniVerse on the back end. Maybe we could have done something like this using a more typical web backend database like mySQL, but I think it would have been much more difficult. Because UV is also the core of all our backend operations, we're able to do things like display real-time inventory levels on the site. This is a huge deal for our customers and something none of our competitors have ever been able to do. I suspect the competition tends to use more traditional off-the-shelf applications and things like web backend databases and operational backend databases end up siloed off from each other. There's something to be said for the Swiss-army-knife flexibility of U2 and having in-house staff that can take advantage of it. As everyone has been pointing out, however, the key is taking advantage of the advanced features that are available. As far as selling non-tech management on U2 as an ideal web 2.0 backend, there are probably some high-tech-sounding terms that could be truthfully thrown around. For example, our particular web application stack could be described as a 4-tier client/server model with a hybrid application server and a rocket-powered database. That may be a little over the top, but I do think the marriage of java (or .Net if that's your thing) and BASIC applications via UOJ or UO (that's what I meant by hybrid) provides a level of flexibility that would be hard to replicate with another product. If anyone wants to point to our site as an example of what the front-end of a U2 database can look like, please do. We'd be honored. Here's the link: http://www.momtex.com/momentum_textiles.shtml The Products link is where all the UV integration lives. -John -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:05 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... As I've said before, U2 is growing, there was double digit sales growth last year. But it is also changing, end users are increasingly not employing programmers of any sort. Software development is more and more a function of software companies with end user companies running what they buy. The U2 based software that is being sold is unrecognisable from the green screen apps of old, it is all about web integration, smartphones, tablets, good looking and easily usable UIs. We have a platform on which we can do that easier than most other technologies, but it's about new skills blended with U2, pure U2 doesn't cut it any more. George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
We have been using web services recently to allow UV to play nice with a couple of other servers. Using XML as the output format. I have it setup to accept either XML input or parameters (POST) or parameters for input (GET). I currently use a perl .cgi as my gateway/interface between APACHE and UV What's nice is no one really knows what's behind the curtain, just that it works. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Hester Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... We just unveiled a new web 2.0 site last month that we're all very proud of around here. It makes extensive use of AJAX, jQuery, a lot of fancy CSS, and UniVerse on the back end. Maybe we could have done something like this using a more typical web backend database like mySQL, but I think it would have been much more difficult. Because UV is also the core of all our backend operations, we're able to do things like display ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Kevin The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options It's not often I disagree with you, but here I must.. We don't lack mature interfaces. We have UO.Net; UOJ; web services - now both XML and JSON; WebDE - not to mention third party alternatives. Without even mentioning OleDb, ODBC, JDBC, ADO.Net .. I've been programming Windows since before Microsoft bought VB, most of my work is in Windows or Web and I earn my crust on both U2 and SQL Server. In my limited time I've used VB, Delphi, C#, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET and even java - urgh - all with U2. With that in mind I have to say that UniObjects is the best API I have ever worked with, bar none. It offers a clean, fast interface that other models just can't compete with and for any business logic the U2 subroutine is king. Give me U2 basic and UO or WebDE over the likes of ADO.NET and SQL any day, however you dress it up. There is no reason other than lack of ambition for U2 applications to look old. The technology is there, and has been there for a decade. Let's stop talking it down. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Brian, I respect your disagreement, and - to a point - disagree with it. You are correct we have a plethora of connectivity options, but I disagree that UO is the best connector bar none. You are coming from Universe, I am coming from Unidata, and from Unidata, UO has historically been a mess, especially the delay on first connect issue. Maybe these issues are being corrected/updated/improved, but I haven't seen it yet. And perhaps UV works better with UO than Unidata? Regarding the XML tools in Unidata, again, it's a mess - at least in terms of the XDom. You can force it to work by horking up the namespaces in the XML, but even following the examples in the documentation results in utter failure a lot of times. Much attention is given to the dot-net crowd, and I don't disparage that in the least but what about us in the PHP and Python camp? Whether the vendors wish to admit it or not, there is an ever expanding world beyond the walls of Microsoft wrecknologies, or even Java for that matter. So yes, our future is largely the product of our ambition, but I disagree that we have the best connectors available. -K On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk wrote: Kevin The only thing that I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options It's not often I disagree with you, but here I must.. We don't lack mature interfaces. We have UO.Net; UOJ; web services - now both XML and JSON; WebDE - not to mention third party alternatives. Without even mentioning OleDb, ODBC, JDBC, ADO.Net .. I've been programming Windows since before Microsoft bought VB, most of my work is in Windows or Web and I earn my crust on both U2 and SQL Server. In my limited time I've used VB, Delphi, C#, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET and even java - urgh - all with U2. With that in mind I have to say that UniObjects is the best API I have ever worked with, bar none. It offers a clean, fast interface that other models just can't compete with and for any business logic the U2 subroutine is king. Give me U2 basic and UO or WebDE over the likes of ADO.NET and SQL any day, however you dress it up. There is no reason other than lack of ambition for U2 applications to look old. The technology is there, and has been there for a decade. Let's stop talking it down. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
John, just spent a couple minutes on the site. Nice job! Isn't jQuery just amazing? -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Thanks, Kevin! Yes, we were repeatedly amazed by jQuery during the development process. We found a way to handle pretty much every cool gui function the design dept. threw at us. The other free tool I was really impressed with was DWR (Direct Web Remoting) for AJAX. You just include their library in your code, set up an XML config file, and then start calling servlet methods from your pages as if they were local javascript functions. I highly recommend it for anyone looking to implement AJAX functionality for the 1st time: http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html -John -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:33 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... John, just spent a couple minutes on the site. Nice job! Isn't jQuery just amazing? -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Hi Karl, Your story/post sound very similar to one that I would post. I am relatively new to this forum and have not posted much either. I too am a 25+ year veteran of Pick/Multivalue/U2 sytems and find myself unemployed. I live in Canada and in the past 6 months or so, there has been 2 Pick related job posting. So I too am trying to abandon Pick as my wife and kids need cash to survive :-). Best wishes and congrats on your new job. Elio Karl Pearson wrote: I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Saying-Goodbye...-tp28702652p31472264.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Know the feeling. There is only so much rejection one can take. Martin Scholl 18910 New Hampshire Ave Brinklow, MD 20862 301-924-5537 301-613-9572 (Cell) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Karl Pearson Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2879 - Release Date: 05/27/10 02:25:00 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Adiós mi amigo. Te veré en el lado oscuro de la luna. I myself am studying Thinking in Java Quite frankly I enjoy PICK so much more. OOP is just too close to Ops! But when I search for pick jobs in a 50 mile radius of my house there's just nada. When I search for Java within 10 miles of my house there are 201 jobs. It was a great gig... The best gig. But I no longer hear the music playing. Allen E. Elwood Tortilla Flats Consulting The Valley, SoCal (btw, remember I sent you that awesome Brushetta sauce recipe for salmon back in 2005-ish? Still my fav) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Martin Scholl Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:51 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Know the feeling. There is only so much rejection one can take. Martin Scholl 18910 New Hampshire Ave Brinklow, MD 20862 301-924-5537 301-613-9572 (Cell) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Karl Pearson Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2879 - Release Date: 05/27/10 02:25:00 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Karl, I never knew thee, but I wish you the absolute best. Whatever your career takes you, own your future! -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Karl, Like you, I'm not a frequent poster, but I remember your occasional contributions as very useful and enlightening the humor and clarity help. There's an ebb and flow to I.T. and the tool set changes accordingly, so I won't be surprised to see you back later... But regardless ... God speed in your future campaigns. -Baker presid...@texmug.org U2UG past Board member This communication, its contents and any file attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential proprietary information. Access by any other party without the express written permission of the sender is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this communication in error you may not copy, distribute or use the contents, attachments or information in any way. Please destroy it and contact the sender. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Good luck Karl... We will miss you. --Bill -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Karl Pearson Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I love your signature quotes. I hope you enjoy your new job. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
It's been an honor, don't go away too far. David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Karl Pearson Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:29 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye... I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what amounts to my swan song. For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse became so stable that corrupt files happened infrequently and fixtool worked. But during that time, I've maintained a personal email and web server, running Majordomo v1.94.5, etc. and have learned a bit about the LAMP stack in so doing. I've been a layed-off DBA, for a small retail company, for the past 22 months, consulting my previous employer because they got rid of me so they could have salary cap to hire a different type of IT manager and move off UV to Profit21, which failed after $250,000 lost. They are back on UV and will stay now. I, however, have to move on because I've received the proverbial offer one can't refuse ($5000US signing bonus and the option for 5000 shares of company stock), plus no one in the 'PICK' world has offered me anything, though there may be a few things still in the works, which will now go quietly away. I will be working in the LAMP world now, making a living doing my hobby, so to speak. (FYI: LAMP = Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP or Perl, depending on who you listen to) I may hang around on the list for a bit, but will eventually have to unsubscribe as my life moves farther and father away from a field I have grown to respect and enjoy. Best wishes to all of you, and like others before me, I'm sure I'll miss the group association you've provided, though I'm mostly just a quiet observer. Thanks and I'll never forget this group of intelligent, insightful, thought-provoking and often entertaining, professionals. --- Karl Pearson ka...@ourldsfamily.com Owner/Administrator of the sites at http://ourldsfamily.com --- To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it. --- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Benjamin Franklin --- Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said. --- ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
