RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
I have a degree, mind you bachelor of business not computing science. What is annoying is that the hard work I had to put into it and working two part time jobs for 3 years to pay my way through, many people today just buy a degree. We are seeing increasingly numbers of Universities that are passing people who have failed because students have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for the course. There is a growing concern of corruption in this area, by the share desperation of certain nationalities to have a degree. What is even a greater concern is that there are a significant number of people that lie about having a degree and don't have one, the HR people never check and are giving jobs to people without degrees. If they are not going to check the degree, then why lose access to a skill base of people that have built up considerable skills without a degree. Finally having a bachelor of computing science degree. The majority of people I know in the PICK industry do not have a computing degree, but a variety of other degrees related to other professions. At the end of the day, it is not the art of programming, but the ability of the person to automate business processes, and the understanding of the business process is quite critical to deliver a professional product. This is probably why PICK applications are still so successful, they are written by people who understand the business problem they are trying to resolve. People from Einstein to Bill Gates have never had degrees but have been brillant people, mind you as many people with degrees have been equally successful. The degree can add to a persons talent, but it can never makeup for a lack of talent. Regards David Jordan --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
It's been my experience that the main benefit to a degree is getting the resume past the Human Resources department. HR personnel are generally not technically oriented and therefore are screening for candidates based on set criteria, i.e. degrees and specific buzzwords. For a non-degreed candidate to be considered at such employers, the resume has to get into the hands of a manager looking for skills and only using any degrees as weighing factors instead of absolutes. This is where old fashioned networking comes in; you need to know someone on the inside. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LeRoi Keiller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) Agreed. Isn't it ironic how employers shouldn't be prejudiced, yet many bluntly refuse to consider candidates who don't have degrees. They even fail to look at students who have technical institute qualifications, despite that technical institutes generally have a more hands-on, real-world approach compared to universities. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
There you go. I KNEW we were a truly enlightened community - especially as I now share an office with a large team of Oracle DBAs! Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Theresa Kollath Sent: 08 September 2004 17:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) Hey - I resemble that remark! I have a BA in Chinese Language and Literature, with a minor in English History. :) - Theresa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) I agree wholeheartedly. Without a degree in English Mediaeval Studies and a Licenciate in Chinese Traditional Acupuncture I wouldn't be the technical chap I am today. Ok, so it came down to money. Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David T. Meeks Sent: 08 September 2004 16:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) A quick comment (though I really shouldn't) I've seen a bunch of posts come across defending the abilities of those without degrees, and I have no problem with those. I also agree that having a degree doesn't guarantee success... But, it's almost devolved into a "people with degrees are useless" discussion. Having a degree should NOT be viewed as a negative aspect, but rather, as a very good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, and it can't truly replace experience, but someone who spends 4-8 years of their lives learning all they can about a particular subject should NOT be looked down upon... Dave ' Proud of his Degree' Meeks This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ This email was checked by MessageLabs SkyScan before entering Microgen. This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
Hey - I resemble that remark! I have a BA in Chinese Language and Literature, with a minor in English History. :) - Theresa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) I agree wholeheartedly. Without a degree in English Mediaeval Studies and a Licenciate in Chinese Traditional Acupuncture I wouldn't be the technical chap I am today. Ok, so it came down to money. Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David T. Meeks Sent: 08 September 2004 16:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) A quick comment (though I really shouldn't) I've seen a bunch of posts come across defending the abilities of those without degrees, and I have no problem with those. I also agree that having a degree doesn't guarantee success... But, it's almost devolved into a "people with degrees are useless" discussion. Having a degree should NOT be viewed as a negative aspect, but rather, as a very good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, and it can't truly replace experience, but someone who spends 4-8 years of their lives learning all they can about a particular subject should NOT be looked down upon... Dave ' Proud of his Degree' Meeks This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
I agree wholeheartedly. Without a degree in English Mediaeval Studies and a Licenciate in Chinese Traditional Acupuncture I wouldn't be the technical chap I am today. Ok, so it came down to money. Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David T. Meeks Sent: 08 September 2004 16:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) A quick comment (though I really shouldn't) I've seen a bunch of posts come across defending the abilities of those without degrees, and I have no problem with those. I also agree that having a degree doesn't guarantee success... But, it's almost devolved into a "people with degrees are useless" discussion. Having a degree should NOT be viewed as a negative aspect, but rather, as a very good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, and it can't truly replace experience, but someone who spends 4-8 years of their lives learning all they can about a particular subject should NOT be looked down upon... Dave ' Proud of his Degree' Meeks This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
On the contrary I never said that degrees are useless or the people that have them, I was just trying to state that one should have an open mind and that those without should not be discredited. Once upon a time it was experience and not the piece of paper that mattered. Those newly graduated struggled to find a position, unable to fullfil the x years of experience requirement. More sides of this coin annoy me (I must be turning into a grumpy old lady) such as companies who will dump seasoned non-degreed experienced people only to replace them with new graduates who are hungry for a job with saving money as the objective... ...and yes...I was proud of my 3.8 GPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David T. Meeks Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2) A quick comment (though I really shouldn't) I've seen a bunch of posts come across defending the abilities of those without degrees, and I have no problem with those. I also agree that having a degree doesn't guarantee success... But, it's almost devolved into a "people with degrees are useless" discussion. Having a degree should NOT be viewed as a negative aspect, but rather, as a very good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, and it can't truly replace experience, but someone who spends 4-8 years of their lives learning all they can about a particular subject should NOT be looked down upon... Dave ' Proud of his Degree' Meeks At 09:49 AM 9/8/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Jeeze people. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. Yes, we all can site anecdotal >examples both pro and con formal education. I was merely pointing out why >some PHBs require degrees. I meant no insult to any individual. My >apologies if my remarks did offend. > >My last employer required that I finish my degree because, due to market >realities, they had to pay their programmers the same or more than they paid >their mechanical and chemical engineers. The idea was that they could not >justify paying the same salary as an engineer with a masters degree to >someone without a degree. David T. Meeks || "All my life I'm taken by surprise Architect, Technology Office || I'm someone's waste of time Ascential Software || Now I walk a balanced line [EMAIL PROTECTED] || and step into tomorrow" - IQ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
A quick comment (though I really shouldn't) I've seen a bunch of posts come across defending the abilities of those without degrees, and I have no problem with those. I also agree that having a degree doesn't guarantee success... But, it's almost devolved into a "people with degrees are useless" discussion. Having a degree should NOT be viewed as a negative aspect, but rather, as a very good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, and it can't truly replace experience, but someone who spends 4-8 years of their lives learning all they can about a particular subject should NOT be looked down upon... Dave ' Proud of his Degree' Meeks At 09:49 AM 9/8/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Jeeze people. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. Yes, we all can site anecdotal >examples both pro and con formal education. I was merely pointing out why >some PHBs require degrees. I meant no insult to any individual. My >apologies if my remarks did offend. > >My last employer required that I finish my degree because, due to market >realities, they had to pay their programmers the same or more than they paid >their mechanical and chemical engineers. The idea was that they could not >justify paying the same salary as an engineer with a masters degree to >someone without a degree. David T. Meeks || "All my life I'm taken by surprise Architect, Technology Office || I'm someone's waste of time Ascential Software || Now I walk a balanced line [EMAIL PROTECTED] || and step into tomorrow" - IQ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK /UniV erse/U2)
Jeeze people. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. Yes, we all can site anecdotal examples both pro and con formal education. I was merely pointing out why some PHBs require degrees. I meant no insult to any individual. My apologies if my remarks did offend. My last employer required that I finish my degree because, due to market realities, they had to pay their programmers the same or more than they paid their mechanical and chemical engineers. The idea was that they could not justify paying the same salary as an engineer with a masters degree to someone without a degree. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debster > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:46 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in > Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) > > > oh yeah.. > > stoopid me > > Although intelligence does not always equal ability > > but bigoted remarks (and dangerously bigoted thoughts) do > equal a certain level of ignorance [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
Glad to hear you've made it through the hurricanes. Hope Ivan goes somewhere else. Also glad to hear I'm not alone in the "doing the job without the sheepskin" department. I bought a gag certificate from an online vendor that shows I've a doctorate of science in "Silicon Interface Technologies" from Starfleet Academy. I'm constantly amazed by how many people don't actually read the silly thing. Don Kibbey Financial Systems Manager Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett & Dunner LLP --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
and...my last tidbit a degree is nothing more than a type of measure of a person and we know how some like to be measured };-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Debster Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) oh yeah.. stoopid me Although intelligence does not always equal ability but bigoted remarks (and dangerously bigoted thoughts) do equal a certain level of ignorance -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gordon Glorfield Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:47 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
It's a matter of statistics and Board ego -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of LeRoi Keiller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) Agreed. Isn't it ironic how employers shouldn't be prejudiced, yet many bluntly refuse to consider candidates who don't have degrees. They even fail to look at students who have technical institute qualifications, despite that technical institutes generally have a more hands-on, real-world approach compared to universities. Perhaps this explains why so many technical institutes are becoming universities. What a strange UniVerse we live in ;o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2004 7:28 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) Importance: Low The implication is that a degreed candidate is brighter, erudite and, gol-dangit, more likely to get the job done. While we poor, slothful, tongue-tied degree-less programmers, just have to make do with what we have... The problem lies in the inability of the employers to determine whether a candidate would fit into the company prior to hiring. Want to know if a candidate has breadth of knowledge, discuss their reading habits. Want to know if a candidate will persevere talk to them about their work history. I have know programmers with a BS, who couldn't put together an intelligent sentence nor could they explain anything to a user. A few of them could code, though.. On the other hand, I have been trying to come up with intelligent sentences made up of two words... "Hi, there"? "Money Talks"? Don't want to sound like I am jumping on you Gordon, I don't think you really believe things are as black and white as the tone of your email indicates. Degree prejudice is a hot button topic with me. Take care, Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group Gordon Glorfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/07/2004 03:47 PM Please respond to u2-users To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:[OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
oh yeah.. stoopid me Although intelligence does not always equal ability but bigoted remarks (and dangerously bigoted thoughts) do equal a certain level of ignorance -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gordon Glorfield Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:47 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
Hmmm We are also neglecting to realize that there are several other factors 1) My brother has a masters in economics, he stuck out a few extra years in school. I would NOT put him in front of a client. He does not have people skills to save his life and his extra degree cannot help him with that. He is attempting his hand at Oracle consulting he is technically adept, but he hasn't had a client in well over a year, and I know why. 2) I also have the capacity to run rings around him concerning the understanding of many a vertical markets real life business process flows. Perhaps his lack of empathy and understanding of human nature impairs his ability to interact with many end users to get a full understanding. 3) There are some with degrees that would rather be perpetual students and look upon a position as a learning tool with no sense of loyalty or "stick-to-it-ness", they don't really want a "job". Someone who has stuck out years while accumulating the knowledge to perform their work has exhibited a "stick-to-it-ness" don't you think? 4) Having the ability to fork out 20K+ for an education does not make one smarter, it just means you were able to somehow accumulate the cash to go, others are not as fortunate and actually had to set aside that dream and go to work to earn a paycheck. 5) There are many who never completed their degrees who are/were extremely successful and brilliant. Some have skipped altogether only to receive an honorary doctorate/degree late in life for their major contributions. Take a peek at the lives (and educational paths of) Vivian Thomas, Bill Gates, John Nash, and Thomas Edison who only had 3 months of formal education his entire life, I suggest you do a bit more research in that area. 6) A piece of paper without DRIVE is nothing but a piece a paper and DRIVE without a piece of paper does not equal incompetence. It's the individual that matters, degreed or not. The paper is not a guarantee of intelligence, to assume otherwise is just exhibiting an obvious lack of it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gordon Glorfield Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:47 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
Why is that when someone final posts a "decent" job posting for a PICK/U2 position, all anyone does is bitch about the post. Sometimes I wonder why people would even post a open position. It's a management position. Like it or not, most of those "positions" require a degree. Hell even relocation may be covered (unlike the Denver, Colorado US one). Stop bitching and either apply for it or don't. (Sorry I'm a bit testy after Hurricance Frances and not looking forward to Hurricance Ivan) Donald Verhagen Fort Lauderdale, FL USA (Running on generator power for 3 days and counting!) (Am I worse for bitching about the people bitching about the post?) --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
Agreed. Isn't it ironic how employers shouldn't be prejudiced, yet many bluntly refuse to consider candidates who don't have degrees. They even fail to look at students who have technical institute qualifications, despite that technical institutes generally have a more hands-on, real-world approach compared to universities. Perhaps this explains why so many technical institutes are becoming universities. What a strange UniVerse we live in ;o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2004 7:28 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) Importance: Low The implication is that a degreed candidate is brighter, erudite and, gol-dangit, more likely to get the job done. While we poor, slothful, tongue-tied degree-less programmers, just have to make do with what we have... The problem lies in the inability of the employers to determine whether a candidate would fit into the company prior to hiring. Want to know if a candidate has breadth of knowledge, discuss their reading habits. Want to know if a candidate will persevere talk to them about their work history. I have know programmers with a BS, who couldn't put together an intelligent sentence nor could they explain anything to a user. A few of them could code, though.. On the other hand, I have been trying to come up with intelligent sentences made up of two words... "Hi, there"? "Money Talks"? Don't want to sound like I am jumping on you Gordon, I don't think you really believe things are as black and white as the tone of your email indicates. Degree prejudice is a hot button topic with me. Take care, Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group Gordon Glorfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/07/2004 03:47 PM Please respond to u2-users To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:[OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2)
The implication is that a degreed candidate is brighter, erudite and, gol-dangit, more likely to get the job done. While we poor, slothful, tongue-tied degree-less programmers, just have to make do with what we have... The problem lies in the inability of the employers to determine whether a candidate would fit into the company prior to hiring. Want to know if a candidate has breadth of knowledge, discuss their reading habits. Want to know if a candidate will persevere talk to them about their work history. I have know programmers with a BS, who couldn't put together an intelligent sentence nor could they explain anything to a user. A few of them could code, though.. On the other hand, I have been trying to come up with intelligent sentences made up of two words... "Hi, there"? "Money Talks"? Don't want to sound like I am jumping on you Gordon, I don't think you really believe things are as black and white as the tone of your email indicates. Degree prejudice is a hot button topic with me. Take care, Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group Gordon Glorfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/07/2004 03:47 PM Please respond to u2-users To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:[OT] [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston (PICK/UniV erse/U2) When an employer requires a degree, it's not the programming training gotten through the school that they are looking for. Rather it's the overall education. I've known some brilliant programmers that could not put 2 words together to form an intelligent sentence. Hand them a spec and they could whip out some amazing code. Ask them to explain an issue to a user and they fail hopelessly. Also, a degree implies a certain level of "stick-to-it-ness" or perseverance. Meaning that the applicant has started and completed a multi-year program of study. A goal was set and met. That is an important trait for some employers. Gordon J. Glorfield Sr. Applications Developer MAMSI (A UnitedHealth Company) 301-360-8839 [snip] > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Adrian Matthews > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 09:41 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [U2] Technical Product Manager opening in Boston > (PICK/UniVerse/U2) > > > I always wonder why people insist on a degree. Surely by the > time you've got the experience to do a job like this the fact > of whether you've got a degree or not is pretty irrelevant. > > [snip] > BS Degree required [snip] This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
