subject:"\[libreoffice\-users\] Re\: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users\?"

Hi :)
The 3.5.0 was blatantly not ready for business use and was not stable, as we 
saw from the number of problems people had on the lists, problems that were 
often solved by going back to 3.4.x.  It was absurd to claim that 3.5.0 or 
3.5.1 or 3.5.2 were stable.  

The 3.5.3 seemed to generate less problems for people, or at least less that 
made it to the list but that could have been that people had given up on even 
trying any in the 3.5.x branch  and perhaps walked away from LO at all by that 
point.  

The question about 3.5.4 is one that you can only answer for yourself by 
testing it yourself.  We have learned to NOT trust it when TDF officials tell 
us that something is stable or enterprise-ready so the only opinion you can 
really count on is your own (unless you trust biased fanboys).  The 3.4.6 is 
plenty stable enough, has dealt with security issues that earlier releases 
theoretically had and and has enough functionality for most office needs.  So, 
i would recommend the 3.4.6 for business users but test-drive the 3.5.4 for 
myself.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sat, 2/6/12, webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote:

From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 2 June, 2012, 22:29


I was told by one member of the list that was part of TDF, do not remember who 
since it was months ago, that business users would research the product or its 
line BEFORE they would install it.

For me, I look at the annoying bug list listed near the bottom of the release 
info page for info.  There are bugs for Writer and other parts of LO that are 
not something I can ignore, but there is no easy to see indicator that that 
bug has been fixed.  There is only red or black text.  The bugs that could be 
show stoppers for me could have been fixed now, since I first looking at bugs 
in 3.5.x line.

So, I have been using 3.4.6 on Linux and Windows.
Now, I am looking at 3.5.4 in some test on a WinXP laptop.

The real big thing is how ready is this line to be used for business users.  
During the 3.3.x and 3.4.x line crossover, you keep getting told that this 
version is ready and that version is not.  But now on the web site people were 
told to download and use 3.5.x since 3.5.0 came out.  I do not think anyone 
would offer their boss a copy of 3.5.0 to be used in their business.

I have given out many, many, DVDs with LO on it to local people, local 
businesses, and local government offices.  I want to give out a new DVD with 
3.5.x on it but I have never been told that the current version of 3.5.x is 
ready for these businesses and such.

Would 3.5.4 be considered ready to give to a large local business or local 
government office?  Are there any show stoppers that are still there that 
needs to be fixed before you would give it to your boss in a business or other 
non-personal users?

That is the problem for me.  First we had a guide for a version being ready for 
business and enterprise users.  Now it is more like who cares or they will find 
out for themselves.

I do not know of any professional IT person who would offer a major package to 
their boss with the an attitude of lets find out if it will work, instead of 
these sources indicates it should work, so lets look into it more.



On 06/02/2012 04:40 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 I think it's important to test-drive a new branch on one non-production 
 machine as soon as possible so that they can post bug-reports about their 
 favourite features if there is a problem.  Then a quick try of the various 
 sub-point releases to check single issues would be smart.  There is usually a 
 noticeable drop off in the number of questions to the list once a branch 
 reaches .4 but this last week or so there seems to have been a spike instead. 
 However, most of those questions have not been about the 3.5.4 (or have been 
 tested on other releases too) so it's got to be worth trying the 3.5.4.
 Regards from
 Tom :) 
 
 --- On Sat, 2/6/12, Andreas Sägerville...@t-online.de  wrote:
 
 From: Andreas Sägerville...@t-online.de
 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Saturday, 2 June, 2012, 16:37
 
 Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
 There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was
 
 So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,
 
 I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?
 
 We really need to know.
 
 The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
 research the package before downloading and installing it.
 
 Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
 will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.
 
 So I am asking LO users the question.
 Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?
 
 The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x

[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Alexander Thurgood

Le 02/06/12 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_P a écrit :
 

Hi,


 Would 3.5.4 be considered ready to give to a large local business or
 local government office?  Are there any show stoppers that are still
 there that needs to be fixed before you would give it to your boss in a
 business or other non-personal users?


Accessibility issues are probably the biggest hurdle to widespread
adoption in government and administration, the Java framework has been
screwed up at some point and that causes accessibility tools, most
notably screenreaders, to either no longer work, or cause the app to
crash - not a satisfactory state of affairs if your
firm/administration/unit has to provide accessible office tools as part
of its legal requirements.


The issue of instability with Apple's accessibility tools has been
ongoing since the release of LO from version 3.3, and is still not resolved.

I have been reading on the accessibility and developer lists more
recently how NVDA (Windows) has also stopped working.

Until issues like these are fixed, there will be no hope of LO being
taken up administrations/companies/institutions with a requirement to
cater for people with disabilities. It is hoped that IBM's recent
contribution to the Apache OO project of parts of the Lotus Symphony
code, most notably the accessibility framework code, will be able to be
integrated into the LO trunk code and thereby improve the situation, but
for the moment, the developers are still waiting for the dust to settle
around the code release.


Alex


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 02.06.2012 21:18, Jude DaShiell wrote:

No.  Not ready for Government academic or business users.  What's worse,
the accessibility problems inferior jre with windows registry patch
merged didn't start in libreoffice at all.


https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46114#c7 [Resolved, not a 
bug, configuration error due to bad screen reader manual]



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 03/06/2012 at 01:58, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote:

 The real problem is that ODF 1.2 is not supported by MS and I am not
 sure if MSO XP supports any ODF formats.

But Andreas is not talking about DOC vs ODF. He is talking about DOC vs DOCX. 
I agree with him - DOC was around earlier, it has pretty good (but not 
perfect) support in LibreOffice. MS Office 2007 and 2010 are capable of reading 
and writing old binary DOC format.

When interoperability with MS Office users is concerned, then DOC is the best 
option you can choose.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 02/06/2012 at 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com 
wrote:

 The real big thing is how ready is this line to be used for business 
 users.  During the 3.3.x and 3.4.x line crossover, you keep getting told 
 that this version is ready and that version is not.

I think you are trying to find some universal criteria of business-readiness, 
which simply does not exist.

Let's say that LO 3.6.0 has some serious bug in one of Calc's economical 
functions. Does it make it not ready for business users? It depends. If you 
are copywriter, who runs Calc few times in a month just to sum some numbers, 
then you can freely start using 3.6.0. If your job involves stock market, then 
perhaps you will prefer to stay with earlier version and wait for 3.6.x with 
bug fixed to come out.

For academic writers, virtually none of OOo/LO is ready for business user due 
to poor bibliography management implementation (although you can use some 
other bibliographic management software, e.g. Zotero or Mendeley, with 
success).

There is no simple answer for that question. Perhaps most conservative users 
should stick with 3.x.6 releases - as latest in each line, they have lowest 
number of bugs.

If you have time, you can check what bugs are know and what are fixed for each 
release. When there are no bugs known in procedures you are using, then 
perhaps you can mark that version as ready for business users.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

Hi :)
I pushed this question to the marketing list (again) and got this standard 
official TDF line

3.5.x is stable, although there are some regressions which impact on
some users. Of course, this is not implying that 3.5.x is perfect, and
we will never have a perfect software as bugs and regressions are part
of the process especially when you are developing new features on a 20
years old code base.

Unfortunately, as it is the case for proprietary software as well, the
only way to check if bugs and regressions impact your usage patterns is
to install the software and start using it.

Note that almost everyone is agreeing that newer releases may have 
regressions.  Also almost everyone except the official TDF line agrees that for 
greater stability you may want to go back to a previous branch that has 
ironed-out it's problems.  

So, there are 2 contradictory cases that people may be happy accepting one or 
the other but are hopefully realistic enough to know that both are not possible 
at the same time (as everyone agrees)

1.  Stable and reliable but probably lacking some of the latest fancy new 
features (not necessarily old, just focussing more on fixing things rather 
than adding new stuff)  

2.  New features, better support for more alien formats, enhanced Draw or 
Impress features, UI changes such as newer icon sets, better wording in pop-ups 
and menus.  Not all at once, maybe, although it often does seem that way.  
Possibly not 100% stable all the time and maybe some regressions


Obviously some people do want both at the same time and some people want to 
deliver both at the same time or wish that we did but it's just not possible.  

The problem and the reason this thread started was because; marketing, the devs 
and the websites team decided to try to pretend that the 2nd one was really the 
1st when it clearly wasn't!  Just wishful thinking rather than a deliberate lie 
- i think.  

Now we don't know who to trust but we know for certain that we can't trust 
marketing, the devs or the websites team about this issue because they just 
give us wishful thinking instead of objective reality and because they are 
embarrassed about it they can't admit their earlier mistake.  

The mistake was trying to simplify the downloads page.  Noobs can't handle it 
there is more than just 1 simple big green button.  Adobe, Firefox and many 
other sites go through long explanations of how downloading does not 
automatically install for you and that people need to take the extra step of 
doing the install for themselves.  Most of those are screen-shots showing to 
just click Next but the fact that it does show the list confuses the people 
that also complain if they are not shown each and every step.  

I think we have to draw the line somewhere.  Perhaps 1 big green button for the 
stable corporate version and 1 big gold(? perhaps shimmering?) button for the 
ultra-latest version?  Hmmm, but then the internal help pages need another 
littler button, errr and then add the languages.  This is all tooo hopelessly 
complicated for most people!!  So you can see why people here wanted to 
simplify it all!!  t was a good effort that just seems to have back-fired a 
bit.  

Never believe incompetence when stupidity explains the facts.  In this case 
trying to eliminate certain potential new people's confusion and inability to 
read and comprehend has led to a right old muddle!

Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Sun, 3/6/12, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote:

From: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 3 June, 2012, 10:40

On 02/06/2012 at 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com 
wrote:

 The real big thing is how ready is this line to be used for business 
 users.  During the 3.3.x and 3.4.x line crossover, you keep getting told 
 that this version is ready and that version is not.

I think you are trying to find some universal criteria of business-readiness, 
which simply does not exist.

Let's say that LO 3.6.0 has some serious bug in one of Calc's economical 
functions. Does it make it not ready for business users? It depends. If you 
are copywriter, who runs Calc few times in a month just to sum some numbers, 
then you can freely start using 3.6.0. If your job involves stock market, then 
perhaps you will prefer to stay with earlier version and wait for 3.6.x with 
bug fixed to come out.

For academic writers, virtually none of OOo/LO is ready for business user due 
to poor bibliography management implementation (although you can use some 
other bibliographic management software, e.g. Zotero or Mendeley, with 
success).

There is no simple answer for that question. Perhaps most conservative users 
should stick with 3.x.6 releases - as latest in each line, they have lowest 
number of bugs.

If you have time, you can check what bugs are know and what are fixed

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P


On 06/03/2012 05:40 AM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:

On 02/06/2012 at 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_Pwebmas...@krackedpress.com
wrote:


The real big thing is how ready is this line to be used for business
users.  During the 3.3.x and 3.4.x line crossover, you keep getting told
that this version is ready and that version is not.

I think you are trying to find some universal criteria of business-readiness,
which simply does not exist.

Let's say that LO 3.6.0 has some serious bug in one of Calc's economical
functions. Does it make it not ready for business users? It depends. If you
are copywriter, who runs Calc few times in a month just to sum some numbers,
then you can freely start using 3.6.0. If your job involves stock market, then
perhaps you will prefer to stay with earlier version and wait for 3.6.x with
bug fixed to come out.

For academic writers, virtually none of OOo/LO is ready for business user due
to poor bibliography management implementation (although you can use some
other bibliographic management software, e.g. Zotero or Mendeley, with
success).

There is no simple answer for that question. Perhaps most conservative users
should stick with 3.x.6 releases - as latest in each line, they have lowest
number of bugs.

If you have time, you can check what bugs are know and what are fixed for each
release. When there are no bugs known in procedures you are using, then
perhaps you can mark that version as ready for business users.


Right now, the web site makes you do a lot of clicking on new links to 
get to a different version of LO than the one that automatically given 
to you, which is the most cutting edge.  In a few months when 3.6.0 
comes out, I bet we will get that one as the recommended version over 
the 3.5.5 version.


Yes, each personal and business user will have to make their own choices 
on which version to use.  What we must do is make it easier to choose 
and give them an easy way to make that choice.  The feature page for the 
3.4.x line does not have a bug report link, while 3.5.x does.


Can there ever be a list of features and a side by side check-mark  
stating if 3.4.6 and/or 3.5.x can do that listed feature/option?  That 
would help the business user, and others, choose which version to try/use.


I do not have the Print to Tray x issue, since my non-default trays 
are all manual feeding trays [except my new printer that can have 10+ 
sheets in the manual feeding tray].  There are other issues that look 
bad for some of my business users, that I have given DVDs to, but I do 
not know enough of all the features they would use LO for to decide for 
myself if the current like is ready for them.  Most of my users would 
not know that you never use a x.x.0 version for their use in business 
and personal work that cannot have downtime for new line bugs.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/03/2012 05:29 AM, Miros?aw Zalewski wrote:
 On 03/06/2012 at 01:58, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote:

 The real problem is that ODF 1.2 is not supported by MS and I am not
 sure if MSO XP supports any ODF formats.
 But Andreas is not talking about DOC vs ODF. He is talking about DOC vs DOCX. 
 I agree with him - DOC was around earlier, it has pretty good (but not 
 perfect) support in LibreOffice. MS Office 2007 and 2010 are capable of 
 reading 
 and writing old binary DOC format.

 When interoperability with MS Office users is concerned, then DOC is the best 
 option you can choose.
My choice of MS formats is done for*political* reasons not technical.
Some people I interact with need to feel comfortable that I can read a
MSOX format file and the best way to convey this is to send them MSOX
format files. Thus they do not need to worry if I can open a file they
send me and most do not know that the file was created on a Linux box
using LO unless I tell them. I assume many of the other users are not
technically skilled enough to use Save As and will only use the default
format of their version of MSO. If I have no idea what a person uses
other than a version Windows I use the older formats as a precaution. My
guerrilla campaign is not use Windows and thus MSO at all and to use
Linux/LO and show others over time that they do not need to depend on MS
for many if not all of their computing needs.

Note I do not use any MSO/MSOX formats for document creation or editing,
I always use ODF formats and do a final Save As to convert the format.

A side note many Windows users are surprised when I tell them I can not
use IE on Linux, they assume everyone can use IE. Needless to say, these
users are probably completely unaware there are other office suites
available (FOSS or commercial).

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Felmon Davis


On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Jay Lozier wrote:


My choice of MS formats is done for*political* reasons not technical.
Some people I interact with need to feel comfortable that I can read a
MSOX format file and the best way to convey this is to send them MSOX
format files. Thus they do not need to worry if I can open a file they
send me and most do not know that the file was created on a Linux box
using LO unless I tell them.


I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from 
.doc to .docx?


F.


--
Felmon Davis

Its name is Public Opinion.  It is held in reverence.  It settles everything.
Some think it is the voice of God.
-- Mark Twain

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread James Knott


Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from 
.doc to .docx?


You divide by zero and a black hole appears.  ;-)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Felmon Davis


On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:


At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from .doc 
to .docx?


Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.

Brian Barker


sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics' 
of submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so 
why not just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but 
avoid getting one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was the 
point of the question. would Word get confused by the extension 
change?


F.


--
Felmon Davis

Small things make base men proud.
-- William Shakespeare, Henry VI

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Ken Springer


On 6/2/12 5:23 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:

Unfortunately for MSO users its use the ribbon only, no option to use a
different interface.


No so, Jay.

I'm no longer a Windows or MSO user, although I have them except for 
Office 2010.  But I found these on the web:


To hide the ribbon in 2007 and 2010: 
http://techie-buzz.com/how-to/minimize-hide-ribbons-in-office-2010-office-2007.html


You might also find this useful, putting Office 2003 menus back into 
2010: 
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus-back-to-2010-with-ubitmenu/ 
   I don't know if it would work with 2007.


I've not tried either solution.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 03.06.2012 20:14, Felmon Davis wrote:


I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from
.doc to .docx?

F.




Brilliant idea! This way you get much better results while the WinWord 
user will not notice any difference at all.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/03/2012 03:03 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
 On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:

 At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
 I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension
 from .doc to .docx?

 Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.

 Brian Barker

 sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics'
 of submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so
 why not just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but
 avoid getting one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was the
 point of the question. would Word get confused by the extension change?

 F.


My idea is to show that whatever MS does with file formats that you are
not required to use MSO at all. I deal with many users whose technical
literacy is nil and think that to open or generate a MSOX format file
you must have MSO 2007/2010. It is guerrilla marketing because
eventually it comes out that I am not using MSO at all but can handle
their file formats without difficulty. One of my goals is to say to
someone I know it can be done because I do it regularly when I recommend
LO to someone and it is not some marketing claim that needs to be verified.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 03.06.2012 22:18, Jay Lozier wrote:

My idea is to show that whatever MS does with file formats that you are
not required to use MSO at all.


And this is falsified each and every day as you can read on this list, 
in the press, anywhere on the internet.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/03/2012 03:30 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
 On 6/2/12 5:23 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:
 Unfortunately for MSO users its use the ribbon only, no option to use a
 different interface.

 No so, Jay.

 I'm no longer a Windows or MSO user, although I have them except for
 Office 2010.  But I found these on the web:

 To hide the ribbon in 2007 and 2010:
 http://techie-buzz.com/how-to/minimize-hide-ribbons-in-office-2010-office-2007.html

 You might also find this useful, putting Office 2003 menus back into
 2010:
 http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus-back-to-2010-with-ubitmenu/
I don't know if it would work with 2007.

 I've not tried either solution.

Interesting, I think many would like it to be a relatively easy switch
to do and it is easily available in MSO 2007/2010. Both links indicate
that one must install ubitmenu to do this, it is not something that is
provided by MS.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P


On 06/03/2012 03:03 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:


At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension 
from .doc to .docx?


Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.

Brian Barker


sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics' 
of submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so 
why not just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but 
avoid getting one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was the 
point of the question. would Word get confused by the extension change?


F.


As the original OP, and did not talk about the .doc/.docx problem, I 
never gave a concern about this topic.


I do not look to see who started this talk as part of my thread on 
whether 3.5.4 was ready for business users, or was their too many 
issues/bugs/etc. still that would be a problem for the business users.


I created the thread on Sat, 02 Jun 2012 10:46:38 -0400  according to 
my Sent folder.


SO please do not tell people that the OP is concerned about something 
when he has not stated it ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


Do not put words into my mouth that someone could make trouble here for 
me! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !








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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Felmon Davis


On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:


On 06/03/2012 03:03 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:


At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from 
.doc to .docx?


Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.

Brian Barker


sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics' of 
submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so why not 
just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but avoid getting 
one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was the point of the 
question. would Word get confused by the extension change?


F.


As the original OP, and did not talk about the .doc/.docx problem, I never 
gave a concern about this topic.


I do not look to see who started this talk as part of my thread on whether 
3.5.4 was ready for business users, or was their too many issues/bugs/etc. 
still that would be a problem for the business users.


I created the thread on Sat, 02 Jun 2012 10:46:38 -0400  according to my 
Sent folder.


SO please do not tell people that the OP is concerned about something when he 
has not stated it ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


Do not put words into my mouth that someone could make trouble here for me! ! 
! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


sorry ! ! ! ! ! !

f.


--
Felmon Davis


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread V Stuart Foote

Jude DaShiell wrote

No. Not ready for Government academic or business users. What's worse,
the accessibility problems inferior jre with windows registry patch
merged didn't start in libreoffice at all. Those same problems exist in
openoffice 3.45 which I think is its current version. Something or
somethings were broken before the import or copy over of code from
openoffice to libreoffice. The accessibility problems put libreoffice
in a Section 508 violation situation.

Jude,

Please review request for feedback on your Windows Java Access Bridge 2.0.2
installation from your original thread titled inferior jre error message.

We've closed the 46114 Bug as NotABug--but if you really are still having
issues this needs attention and we need your assistance in testing
Accessibility support.

Regards,

Stuart

V Stuart Foote wrote

Re: inferior jre error message
Jun 01, 2012; 3:06pm — by V Stuart Foote
Jude,

Would you please try an installation of the Java Access Bridge 2.0.2 using
the JWin installer by Jamal Mazrui and report back if you have assistive
technology in general and in particular if NVDA is functioning as you'd
expect.

Program download link is here --
http://EmpowermentZone.com/JWin_setup.exe --

Additional information about the project here --
http://empowermentzone.com/JWin.htm -- but basically this installer
automates installation and configuration of the Java Access Bridge and
correctly configures the Java Runtime to work with it. The manual
installation of JAB and configuring the JRE for use is daunting, even for
the sighted--I certainly seemed to have problems.

Use of this installer should eliminate that aspect of non-functioning
Accessibility Tools in LibreOffice 3.5.x, and so would allow us to
concentrate on any actual issues with LibreOffice.

Thank you.

Stuart

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P


On 06/03/2012 05:17 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:


On 06/03/2012 03:03 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:


At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension 
from .doc to .docx?


Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.

Brian Barker


sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics' 
of submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so 
why not just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but 
avoid getting one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was 
the point of the question. would Word get confused by the extension 
change?


F.


As the original OP, and did not talk about the .doc/.docx problem, I 
never gave a concern about this topic.


I do not look to see who started this talk as part of my thread on 
whether 3.5.4 was ready for business users, or was their too many 
issues/bugs/etc. still that would be a problem for the business users.


I created the thread on Sat, 02 Jun 2012 10:46:38 -0400  according 
to my Sent folder.


SO please do not tell people that the OP is concerned about something 
when he has not stated it ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


Do not put words into my mouth that someone could make trouble here 
for me! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


sorry ! ! ! ! ! !

f.



I just blew off, so I am sorry myself.
I know someone broke the thread up into to discussions with the same 
subject line.  That happens, but if you claim someone is concerned with 
something, you should make sure you make sure that is the person who 
said it.  As the OP, and not the person to started to discuss .doc/docx, 
I could not be claimed to have said something about that discussion.  I 
have made an effort to stay out of that discussion in the thread I created.


I think the .doc/.docx needs to be done thoroughly in a different 
thread.  That is a big issue with me and I would love to discuss it 
outside this thread name.



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Ken Springer

On 6/3/12 2:25 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:

On 06/03/2012 03:30 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 6/2/12 5:23 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:

Unfortunately for MSO users its use the ribbon only, no option to use a
different interface.

No so, Jay.

I'm no longer a Windows or MSO user, although I have them except for
Office 2010. But I found these on the web:

To hide the ribbon in 2007 and 2010:
http://techie-buzz.com/how-to/minimize-hide-ribbons-in-office-2010-office-2007.html

You might also find this useful, putting Office 2003 menus back into
2010:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus-back-to-2010-with-ubitmenu/
I don't know if it would work with 2007.

I've not tried either solution.

Interesting, I think many would like it to be a relatively easy switch
to do and it is easily available in MSO 2007/2010. Both links indicate
that one must install ubitmenu to do this, it is not something that is
provided by MS.

When will I ever learn!LOL Should have started with MS's Knowledge
Base.

When I first saw 2007, I thought the ribbon idea sucked. And back then,
I found out how to get rid of it, but didn't remember how.

All of these links have information on ways to deal with the ribbon, and
appear to work in both 2007 and 2010.

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/use-the-ribbon-instead-of-toolbars-and-menus-HA010089895.aspx#BM3
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/word-2010-tips-and-tricks-RZ102673170.aspx?section=11
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/tip-11-use-the-quick-access-toolbar-0-47-RZ102673170.aspx?section=12
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/customize-the-quick-access-toolbar-HA001234105.aspx

I don't think you could make it any easier than customizing the Quick
Access Toolbar with a button toggles the Ribbon on or off. :-)

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2

[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Ken Springer


On 6/2/12 8:46 AM, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:


There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

We really need to know.

The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
research the package before downloading and installing it.

Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

So I am asking LO users the question.
Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
3.5.x comes out.


I would have to say.. absolutely not.  :-(

The easiest way to answer your basic question, IMO, is to ask 
yourself...  Can I make a profit selling this product?  If the answer 
is No, you're not ready.


To do that, you need to be able to beat MS at it's own game.

You not only have to be able to meet the competition, but exceed the 
competition.  IMO, too many basics don't do this.


LO has to work and be satisfactory to *every* potential business and 
government user.  I don't think any business or government agency is 
going to test the software for a week, and conclude all is well.  They 
may not be happy later when something they expected to work doesn't 
work, yet MSO or another product had no issues with it.


I'm willing to bet, that within every government all features of MSO 
will be used.  Only some features will be used by any individual or 
division, but every MSO feature will be used by somebody somewhere.


On March 5, 2010, I filed this bug on 3.5.0: 
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986  One poster has 
reported it as being reproducible.


Yet it is still unconfirmed, and not fixed in 3.5.4.2.  It may not be 
important to the devs of LO, but it's sure important to me.  And if this 
doesn't work for me, why would I recommend LO to someone?


I had three or four other issues with 3.5.0, but if no one even bothers 
to confirm this issue, why should I bother reporting any other?


Occasionally, I will rehab/save/refurbish, whatever word you prefer, an 
older computer system to be given away, and I used to install LO.  I no 
longer do that, because of the issues I've found.  I've started to 
include a less powerful free office product, Kingsoft Office.  They do 
not offer a Mac version, so I've not been able to test it for even the 
issues I've found in LO.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2


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Microsoft .TLA and .TLAx Extensions (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?)

2012-06-03 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

The speculative responses to this suggestion are very amusing.

I tried it.  After all, computing is an empirical science [;).

Here is what happened when I renamed a .xls to .xlsx:

  Excel [2010] cannot open the file 'longname.xlsx' 
  because the file format or file extension is not valid.  
  Verify that the file has not been corrupted and that the 
  file extension matches the format of the file.

LibreOffice 3.3.2 Calc was perfectly happy to open the file correctly as the 
.xls that it actually is.

I renamed a .doc to .docx and got this message from Word 2010:

  Word cannot open the file because the file format does not
   match the file extension.  (\\Whs\...Spec9-copy.docx)

LibreOffice 3.3.2 Writer was also successful in importing the file without 
complaint.

I leave renaming .ppt to .pptx as an exercise.

 - Dennis

 

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Säger [mailto:ville...@t-online.de] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 13:04
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

Am 03.06.2012 20:14, Felmon Davis wrote:

 I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from
 .doc to .docx?

 F.



Brilliant idea! This way you get much better results while the WinWord 
user will not notice any difference at all.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Brian Barker


At 19:03 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Brian Barker wrote:

At 18:14 03/06/2012 +, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension 
from .doc to .docx?


Roughly the same as if you call your cat Rover.


sorry I cut the thread but the OP was concerned about the 'politics' 
of submitting '.doc' files to people obsessed with '.docx' files so 
why not just change the extension and meet the 'political' issue but 
avoid getting one's hands dirty with '.docx' formatting? that was 
the point of the question. would Word get confused by the extension change?


Yes: apparently so.  That was my point: the subterfuge does not work.

Brian Barker


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-03 Thread Brian Barker


At 22:04 03/06/2012 +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 03.06.2012 20:14, Felmon Davis wrote:
I am curious: what happens if one just changes 
the file extension from .doc to .docx?


Brilliant idea! This way you get much better 
results while the WinWord user will not notice any difference at all.


You are implying that a file with a .docx 
extension but actually in .doc format will be 
happily opened by Microsoft Word - that Word will 
simply interpret the contents and ignore the 
inappropriate extension, that is.  Sadly for your 
theory, that appears not to be the case.


Brian Barker


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

Hi :)
Can we agree to disagree?

Jay's answer is imperfect but it gets LO out there.  People see it working and 
see that they can read documents from him although he has to do a lot of work 
sometimes to tidy-up documents they give him.  

Andreas' and e-letter's answer is to tell people that to use LO they must stop 
communicating with anyone that uses MS Office, so that is all their customers 
and clients, their colleagues, their boss and people that work for them, their 
family and friends.  

Personally i prefer Jay's answer.  If we can get LO, OOo and the rest out there 
to people then we will be able to choose formats later.  If we can't then we 
will stay stuck with the wrong format.  
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Sun, 3/6/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 3 June, 2012, 21:21

Am 03.06.2012 22:18, Jay Lozier wrote:
 My idea is to show that whatever MS does with file formats that you are
 not required to use MSO at all.

And this is falsified each and every day as you can read on this list, in the 
press, anywhere on the internet.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

Hi :)
You have to use Save As ...  Just renaming the file-extension probably wont 
work as they are 2 very different formats.  
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Sun, 3/6/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 3 June, 2012, 21:04

Am 03.06.2012 20:14, Felmon Davis wrote:

 I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from
 .doc to .docx?

 F.



Brilliant idea! This way you get much better results while the WinWord 
user will not notice any difference at all.


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 04.06.2012 00:59, Tom Davies wrote:


Andreas' and e-letter's answer is to tell people that to use LO they must stop 
communicating with anyone that uses MS Office, so that is all their customers 
and clients, their colleagues, their boss and people that work for them, their 
family and friends.




Are you going to start a flame war against me? Be careful, pal. Your 
assertion is without any substance.



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 04.06.2012 00:50, Brian Barker wrote:


You are implying that a file with a .docx extension but actually in .doc
format will be happily opened by Microsoft Word - that Word will simply
interpret the contents and ignore the inappropriate extension, that is.
Sadly for your theory, that appears not to be the case.

Brian Barker




Thank you for trying. I did not know how stupid that program is.


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Microsoft .TLA and .TLAx Extensions (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?)

2012-06-03 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

There are security issues around allowing MSO binaries being disguised as OOXML 
and then silently accepted anyhow.  The decision, stupid or not, is clearly by 
design.

To see the importance of this, note that you cannot rename a *.docm 
(macro-enabled) as a *.docx (no macros here, ever) and get away with it.  

Please keep in mind that the disguise was proposed on this list as a deception 
(regardless of whether the requirement was wrong-headed or not).  And the 
deception is needed to compensate for the fact that Save As ... .docx is not 
the greatest thing since sliced bread in OpenOffice-lineage implementations.  
(Um, I am not sure that Save As ... .docx is even possible in Apache 
OpenOffice, although I am confident that will change.)

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Säger [mailto:ville...@t-online.de] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 18:00
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

Am 04.06.2012 00:50, Brian Barker wrote:

 You are implying that a file with a .docx extension but actually in .doc
 format will be happily opened by Microsoft Word - that Word will simply
 interpret the contents and ignore the inappropriate extension, that is.
 Sadly for your theory, that appears not to be the case.

 Brian Barker



Thank you for trying. I did not know how stupid that program is.


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Re: Microsoft .TLA and .TLAx Extensions (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?)

On 06/03/2012 06:37 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 The speculative responses to this suggestion are very amusing.

 I tried it.  After all, computing is an empirical science [;).

 Here is what happened when I renamed a .xls to .xlsx:

   Excel [2010] cannot open the file 'longname.xlsx' 
   because the file format or file extension is not valid.  
   Verify that the file has not been corrupted and that the 
   file extension matches the format of the file.

 LibreOffice 3.3.2 Calc was perfectly happy to open the file correctly as the 
 .xls that it actually is.

 I renamed a .doc to .docx and got this message from Word 2010:

   Word cannot open the file because the file format does not
match the file extension.  (\\Whs\...Spec9-copy.docx)

 LibreOffice 3.3.2 Writer was also successful in importing the file without 
 complaint.

 I leave renaming .ppt to .pptx as an exercise.

  - Dennis

  
Interesting, Excel and Word get confused by the change but Writer and
Calc do not. I do not advocate changing file extensions. I would have
thought the opposite would occur, MSO no problem and LO confused.

 -Original Message-
 From: Andreas Säger [mailto:ville...@t-online.de] 
 Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 13:04
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

 Am 03.06.2012 20:14, Felmon Davis wrote:
 I am curious: what happens if one just changes the file extension from
 .doc to .docx?

 F.


 Brilliant idea! This way you get much better results while the WinWord 
 user will not notice any difference at all.




-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:


There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

We really need to know.

The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
research the package before downloading and installing it.

Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

So I am asking LO users the question.
Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
3.5.x comes out.



What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like 
me or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely 
untypical user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of 
bug reports. Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The 
overall service quality of this particular user list is really bad.


The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but 
not in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it 
serves both projects.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-02 Thread Spencer Graves


On 6/2/2012 8:37 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:


There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

We really need to know.

The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
research the package before downloading and installing it.

Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

So I am asking LO users the question.
Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
3.5.x comes out.



What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user 
like me or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a 
completely untypical user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after 
writing a bunch of bug reports. Tom has an entirely non-technical view 
on the project. The overall service quality of this particular user 
list is really bad.


The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 
but not in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker 
where it serves both projects.



  What does it need to do to be business ready?


  I don't know, but I suspect that Google probably uses it.  I 
heard over a year ago that Google employees were forbidden to use MS 
Windows:  The primary alternatives were Mac OS and Linux.  I was also 
told that Google paid people full time to do nothing but contribute to 
open source projects.  I suspect they probably have the same attitude 
today towards MS Office as toward the operating system.



  I've used LibreOffice or Open Office for over 3 years now as a 
100% replacement for MS Office.  I was motivated by two things:  (a) I 
had lost my job and resolved to pay for software only if I could not 
find a comparable, Free Open-Source Software (FOSS) alternative.  (b) I 
saw no need to pay Microsoft for forcing me to learn where they hid all 
the controls on their new version.  Since then, I've had some 
compatibility problems with LO import and export of MS Word documents, 
and I still cannot control LO Impress as good as I could MS PowerPoint.  
On the other hand, I've started using the LO Synchronize Labels 
feature, and I never used a comparable feature in MS Word;  it may be 
there, but I never used it.



  Spencer Graves
p.s.  I'm the President of a start-up.  We have not hired anyone new but 
if and when we do, I plan to ask them to try LO before I pay for MS 
Office.  My Chief Engineer still has MS Office and has not seen a need 
to try LO -- and the incompatibility problems have not been sufficient 
for me to push him to use LO.  I'm not sure, but I think my Chief 
Financial Officer uses LO.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-02 Thread Jude DaShiell

No.  Not ready for Government academic or business users.  What's worse, 
the accessibility problems inferior jre with windows registry patch 
merged didn't start in libreoffice at all.  Those same problems exist in 
openoffice 3.45 which I think is its current version.  Something or 
somethings were broken before the import or copy over of code from 
openoffice to libreoffice.  The accessibility problems put libreoffice 
in a Section 508 violation situation.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, Spencer Graves wrote:

 On 6/2/2012 8:37 AM, Andreas S?ger wrote:
  Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
  
   There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was
  
   So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,
  
   I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?
  
   We really need to know.
  
   The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
   research the package before downloading and installing it.
  
   Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
   will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.
  
   So I am asking LO users the question.
   Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?
  
   The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
   but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
   3.5.x comes out.
  
 
  What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like me
  or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely untypical
  user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of bug reports.
  Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The overall service
  quality of this particular user list is really bad.
 
  The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but not
  in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it serves
  both projects.
 
 
   What does it need to do to be business ready?
 
 
   I don't know, but I suspect that Google probably uses it.  I heard over
 a year ago that Google employees were forbidden to use MS Windows:  The
 primary alternatives were Mac OS and Linux.  I was also told that Google paid
 people full time to do nothing but contribute to open source projects.  I
 suspect they probably have the same attitude today towards MS Office as toward
 the operating system.
 
 
   I've used LibreOffice or Open Office for over 3 years now as a 100%
 replacement for MS Office.  I was motivated by two things:  (a) I had lost my
 job and resolved to pay for software only if I could not find a comparable,
 Free Open-Source Software (FOSS) alternative.  (b) I saw no need to pay
 Microsoft for forcing me to learn where they hid all the controls on their new
 version.  Since then, I've had some compatibility problems with LO import and
 export of MS Word documents, and I still cannot control LO Impress as good as
 I could MS PowerPoint.  On the other hand, I've started using the LO
 Synchronize Labels feature, and I never used a comparable feature in MS
 Word;  it may be there, but I never used it.
 
 
   Spencer Graves
 p.s.  I'm the President of a start-up.  We have not hired anyone new but if
 and when we do, I plan to ask them to try LO before I pay for MS Office.  My
 Chief Engineer still has MS Office and has not seen a need to try LO -- and
 the incompatibility problems have not been sufficient for me to push him to
 use LO.  I'm not sure, but I think my Chief Financial Officer uses LO.
 
 
 
 


Jude jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net
http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-02 Thread Jude DaShiell

Correction what I wrote applies only to the Windows version.  I don't 
have g.u.i. installed on Linux, I need something stable to use and 
haven't tried this on my mac yet.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, Spencer Graves wrote:

 On 6/2/2012 8:37 AM, Andreas S?ger wrote:
  Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
  
   There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was
  
   So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,
  
   I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?
  
   We really need to know.
  
   The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
   research the package before downloading and installing it.
  
   Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
   will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.
  
   So I am asking LO users the question.
   Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?
  
   The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
   but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
   3.5.x comes out.
  
 
  What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like me
  or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely untypical
  user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of bug reports.
  Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The overall service
  quality of this particular user list is really bad.
 
  The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but not
  in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it serves
  both projects.
 
 
   What does it need to do to be business ready?
 
 
   I don't know, but I suspect that Google probably uses it.  I heard over
 a year ago that Google employees were forbidden to use MS Windows:  The
 primary alternatives were Mac OS and Linux.  I was also told that Google paid
 people full time to do nothing but contribute to open source projects.  I
 suspect they probably have the same attitude today towards MS Office as toward
 the operating system.
 
 
   I've used LibreOffice or Open Office for over 3 years now as a 100%
 replacement for MS Office.  I was motivated by two things:  (a) I had lost my
 job and resolved to pay for software only if I could not find a comparable,
 Free Open-Source Software (FOSS) alternative.  (b) I saw no need to pay
 Microsoft for forcing me to learn where they hid all the controls on their new
 version.  Since then, I've had some compatibility problems with LO import and
 export of MS Word documents, and I still cannot control LO Impress as good as
 I could MS PowerPoint.  On the other hand, I've started using the LO
 Synchronize Labels feature, and I never used a comparable feature in MS
 Word;  it may be there, but I never used it.
 
 
   Spencer Graves
 p.s.  I'm the President of a start-up.  We have not hired anyone new but if
 and when we do, I plan to ask them to try LO before I pay for MS Office.  My
 Chief Engineer still has MS Office and has not seen a need to try LO -- and
 the incompatibility problems have not been sufficient for me to push him to
 use LO.  I'm not sure, but I think my Chief Financial Officer uses LO.
 
 
 
 


Jude jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net
http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 02.06.2012 21:18, Jude DaShiell wrote:

No.  Not ready for Government academic or business users.  What's worse,
the accessibility problems inferior jre with windows registry patch
merged didn't start in libreoffice at all.  Those same problems exist in
openoffice 3.45 which I think is its current version.  Something or
somethings were broken before the import or copy over of code from
openoffice to libreoffice.  The accessibility problems put libreoffice
in a Section 508 violation situation.




Government, academic or business users all have administrators who can 
find their way to roll out a productive version of some office suite 
plus some with MS Office work station.


There is nothing wrong with version 3.3.4 or even OOo 3.3. Both are rock 
stable and produce perfectly valid ODF.


Unfortunately, the project has far too many fan boys, consumers and 
complainers but there are not enough determined contributors and 
testers. I have no idea which problem you are writing about. Without 
issue number the problem does not exist.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-02 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
I think it's important to test-drive a new branch on one non-production machine 
as soon as possible so that they can post bug-reports about their favourite 
features if there is a problem.  Then a quick try of the various sub-point 
releases to check single issues would be smart.  There is usually a noticeable 
drop off in the number of questions to the list once a branch reaches .4 but 
this last week or so there seems to have been a spike instead.  
However, most of those questions have not been about the 3.5.4 (or have been 
tested on other releases too) so it's got to be worth trying the 3.5.4.
Regards from
Tom :)  


--- On Sat, 2/6/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 2 June, 2012, 16:37

Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

 There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

 So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

 I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

 We really need to know.

 The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
 research the package before downloading and installing it.

 Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
 will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

 So I am asking LO users the question.
 Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

 The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
 but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
 3.5.x comes out.


What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like 
me or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely 
untypical user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of 
bug reports. Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The 
overall service quality of this particular user list is really bad.

The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but 
not in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it 
serves both projects.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/02/2012 04:40 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 I think it's important to test-drive a new branch on one non-production 
 machine as soon as possible so that they can post bug-reports about their 
 favourite features if there is a problem.  Then a quick try of the various 
 sub-point releases to check single issues would be smart.  There is usually a 
 noticeable drop off in the number of questions to the list once a branch 
 reaches .4 but this last week or so there seems to have been a spike instead. 
  
 However, most of those questions have not been about the 3.5.4 (or have been 
 tested on other releases too) so it's got to be worth trying the 3.5.4.
 Regards from
 Tom :)  
+1 about testing.

The real issue is not whether a specific release is business ready but
rather does the specific release meet your needs or does it have
improvements, bug fixes, etc that make it better for you.

I use 3.5.4.2 from the repository for both business and personal use and
do not have any issues for what I need and do with it. But I have
limited business needs with the most important issue being the ability
to open and to create docx and xlsx files from and for others.


 --- On Sat, 2/6/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

 From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Saturday, 2 June, 2012, 16:37

 Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
 There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

 So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

 I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

 We really need to know.

 The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
 research the package before downloading and installing it.

 Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
 will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

 So I am asking LO users the question.
 Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

 The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
 but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
 3.5.x comes out.

 What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like 
 me or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely 
 untypical user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of 
 bug reports. Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The 
 overall service quality of this particular user list is really bad.

 The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but 
 not in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it 
 serves both projects.




-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

2012-06-02 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P



I was told by one member of the list that was part of TDF, do not 
remember who since it was months ago, that business users would research 
the product or its line BEFORE they would install it.


For me, I look at the annoying bug list listed near the bottom of the 
release info page for info.  There are bugs for Writer and other parts 
of LO that are not something I can ignore, but there is no easy to see 
indicator that that bug has been fixed.  There is only red or black 
text.  The bugs that could be show stoppers for me could have been fixed 
now, since I first looking at bugs in 3.5.x line.


So, I have been using 3.4.6 on Linux and Windows.
Now, I am looking at 3.5.4 in some test on a WinXP laptop.

The real big thing is how ready is this line to be used for business 
users.  During the 3.3.x and 3.4.x line crossover, you keep getting told 
that this version is ready and that version is not.  But now on the web 
site people were told to download and use 3.5.x since 3.5.0 came out.  I 
do not think anyone would offer their boss a copy of 3.5.0 to be used in 
their business.


I have given out many, many, DVDs with LO on it to local people, local 
businesses, and local government offices.  I want to give out a new DVD 
with 3.5.x on it but I have never been told that the current version of 
3.5.x is ready for these businesses and such.


Would 3.5.4 be considered ready to give to a large local business or 
local government office?  Are there any show stoppers that are still 
there that needs to be fixed before you would give it to your boss in a 
business or other non-personal users?


That is the problem for me.  First we had a guide for a version being 
ready for business and enterprise users.  Now it is more like who cares 
or they will find out for themselves.


I do not know of any professional IT person who would offer a major 
package to their boss with the an attitude of lets find out if it will 
work, instead of these sources indicates it should work, so lets look 
into it more.




On 06/02/2012 04:40 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I think it's important to test-drive a new branch on one non-production machine as soon as possible so that they can post bug-reports about their favourite features if there is a problem.  Then a quick try of the various sub-point releases to check single issues would be smart.  There is usually a noticeable drop off in the number of questions to the list once a branch reaches .4 but this last week or so there seems to have been a spike instead. 
However, most of those questions have not been about the 3.5.4 (or have been tested on other releases too) so it's got to be worth trying the 3.5.4.

Regards from
Tom :) 



--- On Sat, 2/6/12, Andreas Sägerville...@t-online.de  wrote:

From: Andreas Sägerville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 2 June, 2012, 16:37

Am 02.06.2012 16:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

There seems to be differenting opinions on how business ready 3.5.3 was

So now that LO 3.5.4 is out,

I ask the users, is it ready to be deployed to my/our business users?

We really need to know.

The last official word on the 3.5.x line was that business users would
research the package before downloading and installing it.

Well, I do not know how they will to all that research, or where they
will get the documentation for it, before downloading it.

So I am asking LO users the question.
Is 3.5.4 ready for our business and/or enterprise users?

The doc people are work hard to get more 3.5.x line documentation out,
but to be honest about it people can still use 3.3.x and 3.4.x docs till
3.5.x comes out.


What is the problem with 3.5? What are your conclusions when a user like
me or Tom states that everything is fine with 3.5? I am a completely
untypical user who skipped the whole 3.4 series after writing a bunch of
bug reports. Tom has an entirely non-technical view on the project. The
overall service quality of this particular user list is really bad.

The bug tracker can tell all unresolved issues that do exist in 3.5 but
not in 3.4? Don't ask me how. I file my bugs to the AOO tracker where it
serves both projects.





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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 02.06.2012 23:26, Jay Lozier wrote:


I use 3.5.4.2 from the repository for both business and personal use and
do not have any issues for what I need and do with it. But I have
limited business needs with the most important issue being the ability
to open and to create docx and xlsx files from and for others.




Can you please explain why you create docx and xlsx and not doc and xls?


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 02.06.2012 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I do not know of any professional IT person who would offer a major
package to their boss with the an attitude of lets find out if it will
work, instead of these sources indicates it should work, so lets look
into it more.



Yes, sure. Recently I visited a law firm where everybody was forced to 
work with MSOffice 2010 but without any training. We had to compose a 
rather complex document with lots of tables and the only suitable 
software at hand was the office on my laptop. I loaded their .dot 
template (which contained some useful styles), pasted unformatted text 
into it, pasted some WinWord tables into a spreadsheet and composed a 
well styled document from a collection of snippets while our lawyer 
could concentrate on the content.
This could not be done in MS Office because nobody knew how to get 
certain well known commands out of the ribbon.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/02/2012 05:50 PM, Andreas Säger wrote:
 Am 02.06.2012 23:26, Jay Lozier wrote:

 I use 3.5.4.2 from the repository for both business and personal use and
 do not have any issues for what I need and do with it. But I have
 limited business needs with the most important issue being the ability
 to open and to create docx and xlsx files from and for others.


 Can you please explain why you create docx and xlsx and not doc and xls?


To keep others happy, actually I save in both MSO and MSOX formats for
different MS users. But I always create and save in ODF formats for the
originals. The conversion is done as the last step and no one has
reported any problems with the MSOX formats. Most of the MS users I deal
with do not know I was not using some version of MSO office.

More importantly for me is the reverse: MSO/MSOX to ODF. When I receive
a document, again I save as ODF for my original and keep the MSO/MSOX
unchanged.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?

On 06/02/2012 06:06 PM, Andreas Säger wrote:
 Am 02.06.2012 23:29, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
 I do not know of any professional IT person who would offer a major
 package to their boss with the an attitude of lets find out if it will
 work, instead of these sources indicates it should work, so lets look
 into it more.


 Yes, sure. Recently I visited a law firm where everybody was forced to
 work with MSOffice 2010 but without any training. We had to compose a
 rather complex document with lots of tables and the only suitable
 software at hand was the office on my laptop. I loaded their .dot
 template (which contained some useful styles), pasted unformatted text
 into it, pasted some WinWord tables into a spreadsheet and composed a
 well styled document from a collection of snippets while our lawyer
 could concentrate on the content.
 This could not be done in MS Office because nobody knew how to get
 certain well known commands out of the ribbon.


Unfortunately for MSO users its use the ribbon only, no option to use a
different interface.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?


Am 03.06.2012 01:21, Jay Lozier wrote:


Can you please explain why you create docx and xlsx and not doc and xls?



To keep others happy,


How can you be sure that you keep others happy with a poorly supported 
file format? Why should a user of MSO be unhappy with doc/xls being a 
second native file format of his/her office program?
He will never see any difference between doc and docx made by 
LibreOffice except that chances are much higher to get a broken docx. 
When you import docx back into LibO chances are higher that you do not 
see the same document as the sender does because there are plenty of 
features that do exist in MSO but not in LibO.
I think there is not a single _technical_ reason to export OOXML as long 
as MS supports their old binary formats. And for the more _emotional_ 
part: OOXML is made to fight ODF.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Is 3.5.4 ready for business users?