[Vo]:unsubscribe
Re: [Vo]:Rossi addresses Ni enrichment issue
The answer, of course, is for him to have a patent application that fully discloses his invention so that others skilled in the art can duplicate his results. If he just submitted an application that would avoid undo experimentation then there would be no problem with getting a patent and for others to duplicate the results and even build on them. Dennis From: noone noone Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:10 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi addresses Ni enrichment issue I am not saying he should give away all the information. For his sake, he should not. But it might be better for the world if the information did leak out. I would not at all be upset if his lawyers told him to stop talking because he was risking his IP. That is their job. However, for a member of the cold fusion community to say something to him that would make him stop sharing info would make me furious. Because it could end up hurting the world. We need this technology, ASAP. It needs to be replicated, ASAP. I totally understand his need not to give away the technology. But from another point of view the world needs it badly (billions of people vs. Rossi) and I think people should think about that before warning him. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, April 12, 2011 8:09:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi addresses Ni enrichment issue noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Who do you think alerted him? He does not need to be alerted. He is an experienced businessman. No one makes a dime in business if he gives away his technical knowledge and trade secrets for free. I hope no one went up to him and told him to stop sharing information. It would make sense if his patent lawyers did so, but if a member of the cold fusion community did so I would be furious. First, Rossi does not need anyone to warn him. He knows that perfectly well. Second, why would you be furious? That makes no sense. Why shouldn't I or someone else advise Rossi that he is endangering his own intellectual property. If you had intellectual property worth billions of dollars, I suppose you would appreciate it if people warned you that you might lose it by saying too much. You would be thankful. If you left your car door open with your wallet on the front seat, I assume you would appreciate it if I warned you. Rossi should work day and night for 20 years, and risked all of his personal fortune. You seem to be saying that he should now give away the fruits of his labor for nothing, and if he starts to give it away inadvertently, we should be furious if someone warns him. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat CATALYST Speculation Thread
notice that is not consistent with what you said earlier today: Ni processing system increases 10% the cost of Ni a pure isotope Nickel would cost a lot. It is more likely a simple commercially available modification of Ni From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 2:24 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat CATALYST Speculation Thread Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: And as I have told so many times- the gases that could compete with deuterium or hydrogen have to be thoroughly eliminated from the surface- please read the (accepted!) patent WO 2010/058288 The Piantelli patent. So you are talking mainly about cleaning. Here's something interesting. Under Description the patent says: Preferably, said transition metal is Nickel. In particular, said Nickel is selected from the group comprised of: natural Nickel, i.e. a mixture of isotopes like Nickel 58, Nickel 60, Nickel 61 , Nickel 62, Nickel 64; - a Nickel that contains only one isotope, said isotope selected from the group comprised of: Nickel 58; Nickel 60 Nickel 61 ; - Nickel 62; Nickel 64; - a formulation comprising at least two of such isotopes at a desired proportion. The wording is confusing. It seems to say Use one isotope, or maybe another, or just pick one from this list . . . take a card, any card. What proportion, by the way? This does not teach a Person Skilled in the Art. Anyway . . . Mono-isotopic nickel? Could that be the secret? Where do buy mono-isotopic material, anyway? National labs used to sell that sort of thing, for lots of money. - Jed
[Vo]:Rossi's chimney
Looking at the new pictures... The chimney area has lead sheet in with = the thermal insulation. Why would he need Pb there? I would think that only the reactor area = would need to be shielded. What am I missing? Does he expect some radiation from the vertical = section that I though was just for=20 steam? Dennis C
Re: [Vo]:Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
It is interesting to note that at least one 5D theory (Dynamic theory) predicted a particle of 154 GeV/c2 several years (15??) ago. Dennis C -- From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:38 PM To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13000253 Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
if you work in the boiling water region... it wouldn't be too hard to keep them all the same. and yes, it looks like his trigger at 60C (not the 300+) like Focardi. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote:. Doesn't the temperature of the heated water depend on the flow rate? If there are devices in series, the problem I see is that the devices would operate at different temperatures. You could, however, adjust the flow rate to adjust the final temperature. This is assuming the devices are identical, which I'd think would be desirable. If the devices must all operate at the same temperature, it gets much more complicated Second-guessing Rossi at this point is likely a waste of time. The data tends to indicate that the reactor does not initiate below 60 C. T
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
It may be a wrong path to think that the system as including the water flow piping. He may just use larger water flow piping and then have several ecats (just the reactor part) in a common flow of water. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:16 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yup. But I started writing that text before I learned that. Besides a 10 x 10 array is easy to envision, whereas . . . 17 x 17? I think that if you put two devices in series you already get superheated steam, so more than that is likely overkill. In short I would expect the array to be more like 150 x 2, or perhaps 100 X 3, but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be a square array. I would not put them in series. You don't want steam or superheated water flowing by the last on in line. I would put several pipes in parallel through the engine block with water going through all of them. This is how steam locomotive and marine engine boilers worked, either with fire tubes or water tubes. With a 10 x 10 array, the water would flow past at most 10 cells. I do not think you would want it to flow past 100 cells. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
hay, that looks just like my system for a matrix search on these things. except my top piece has a dome and only one hydrogen port. ... and the wells have ceramic paper thermal off sets ... and the water flow is at constant temp ... and a copper gasket. I use it to screen materials. Dennis -- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together For what it's worth here is sketch of the configuration I have in mind. There are multiple cooling pipes in parallel. When the nickel catalyst heats up, it heats the entire engine block. If some of the catalyst cylinders do not heat effectively the heat is still evenly distributed across the entire block. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
Just a personal view... having seen some of these things played out. it could be that he doesn't know how it works. It may be very much material dependent and he has but a little of the good stuff left and doesn't know why batch 3 and 4 (pick some numbers) work and the new ones don't. Now he is trying to make smaller ones to conserve the material and save face. It is interesting to notice that the devices in the Swedish report showed a lot of Cu oxide black but the other fittings where new and shinny. Perhaps they were old ones or some taken out of service. Anyway, it is hard to see how you could get that much oxide on them if water was flowing in the pipes. Notice the fittings on the Cu parts were not altered enough to knock of the oxide but the mounts and connectors were all new. I know that with CETI, they thought they had it, and then when the good batches ran out. I just know that active materials may be hard to acquire in multiple batches. There is just something at the atomic level that is required and we just don't know how to make it consistantly. Dennis -- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:59 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Are you falling for it? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton So what is his endgame? Well, if he really has made a great discovery, as we all hope - then the latest stunt with the small ghetto-quality versions is probably to protect the secret for as long as possible by misdirection. That would be by showing old early efforts which do not work well, for the purpose of keeping replicators from trying a full-liter volume reactor, which would be the critical-mass (of something) threshold. We have only his word these work at all. IOW - he does not understand what is going on - and thinks that either it might be covered by Randell Mills IP, or that someone else might discover the precise M.O. and deprive him of full worth. That is one of several scenarios which could be the motivation for all of the half-truths, assuming that the large device does function as in the demo. He may have realized now that he gave away too much a few months back. Geeze, he may even read vortex. OTOH - If he is a total scam artist, and that is certainly not ruled out - then he has probably lined up one or two especially wealthy investors, whom he will fleece. For instance, did you see the Spike Lee film 'Inside Man'? ... where there was a bank robbery, or was there? Nothing appears missing. The investigation is dropped as there is no apparent theft. And the single rich victim (the mark) cannot complain, because he was once the worst kind of villain and has to protect that secret. Rossi, who has already been convicted of tax evasion and has Swiss connections, may have located such a mark, one with lots of untaxed wealth, and who is seeking legitimacy in a real business venture. Geeze it could be Berlusconi for all we know. Heck, if nothing else - this makes a provocative story or screenplay, no? Having spent a few months of time on trying to understand Rossi and E-Cat, hundreds of hours really - believing it will surely save the world from the evils of the BigOil/OPEC alliance, just like Mills failed to do a decade ago - maybe I can salvage something out of all the effort, and should start that screenplay soon ... just in case. Jones
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: “It’s a nuclear reaction” / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Looking at the pictures, it seems to be fairly simple mechanically. The chamber is 50cc and not 1 liter as we were made to believe. My question is: does the water pass through the bed of Nickel? I don't see anything in the pictures that would indicate that there is a separate path for the water- unless the center part is double walled. ??? and there doesn't seem to be a seam for that. Also the does not seem to be any electrical connection to the bed for any traveling wave type excitation. Just perhaps an external heater. How do others view the photos in a mechanical way? Dennis C -- From: SHIRAKAWA Akira shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 1:01 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: “It’s a nuclear reaction” / The used powder contains ten percent copper Hello group, In a detailed report, two Swedish physicists exclude chemical reactions as the energy source in the Italian ‘energy catalyzer’. The two physicists recently supervised a new test of the device in Bologna, Italy. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece It's actually a two part article. The second part should prove quite interesting and revealing. I'll copy and paste that here, but be sure to check out the rest in the link above as well: * *
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
My guess is that the Aux is to pre heat the water flowing into the system and the other external clamp on heater is for control. Put those two seem to be the only external electrical connections (other than the thermocouples) Dennis C From: Jones Beene Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper From: Stephen A. Lawrence Ø Ø Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. In the photos I am looking at, from this page - one resistance heater labeled auxiliary goes directly into a copper pipe. You may need to blow up the image. Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
the Cu would have to go through the water and then through the stainless steel to get to the powder. Dennis C -- From: Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 4:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper Indeed from the link provided Akira it says: The reactor itself, which is loaded with the nickel powder and secret catalysts pressurized with hydrogen, has an estimated volume of 50 cubic centimeters (3.2 cubic inches). The reactor is made of stainless steel. Harry - Original Message From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 10:53:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
that is also the way I see it. Otherwise you would need two copper components - inner Cu tube, stainless and then the outer Cu tube - A stainless reactor chamber inside a widen part of one copper component would be much easier to machine. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:37 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. Because that is not what I envision. I envision a SS reactor vessel enclosed within a copper sphere attached to a copper pipe. The reactor vessel is suspended inside the copper and the water passes outside the SS reactor. Water does not enter the reactor vessel but passes around it. Otherwise, how do you maintain the H2 pressure? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: \It\'s a nuclear reaction\ / The used powder contains ten percent copper
I thought of it as a stainless steel cylinder (easier to machine) inside the widen part of the copper tubing with water flowing around it. From the temperature curves, I think that the external heater gets the system up to around 60C where the reaction starts to proceed. My guess for the secret additive is some molecular material in the Ni powder or on the Ni powder that decomposes around 60 and produces the active surface. From my own experiments, I think that the Ni powder also needs to have some kind of inert separator to isolate the Ni to keep it from sintering. Mine always turn into a crunchy lump if I don't add something like Zr oxide powder or Cab-O-Sil. Dennis From: francis Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:48 PM To: den...@netmdc.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: \It\'s a nuclear reaction\ / The used powder contains ten percent copper Dennis, that is also how I interpreted the new paper but Jones then indicated there may also be copper inside the reactor. In either case I am convinced the initial Reaction is due to changes in nano geometry which causes change in suppression level that disassociates any molecular hydrogen or fractional molecular hydrogen in an endless cycle until the gas escapes the suppression zones. The normally un-exploitable energy that keeps gas in chaotic motion is harnessed to move fractional molecules relative to change in nano geometry surfaces. Gas law also causes random motion of monatomic hydrogen but my premise is that the changes in suppression level only oppose molecular motion but allows atoms to change fractional values unimpeded. There was a comment that Rossi's secret catalyst may aid in the adsorption of atomic hydrogen over diatomic hydrogen which would make sense if you hold any of the theories that favor the gas to translate as far as possible into the smallest space and fractional values. Regards Fran Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:19:01 -0700 the Cu would have to go through the water and then through the stainless steel to get to the powder. Dennis C
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The patent drawings sure looks like cylinder type vessel containing Ni and surrounded by flowing water. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Has anyone seen such a sphere? Nothing seen by me indicates that level of sophistication. Small spheres are tricky to make and the outward of H2 pressure would possibly be more of a problem than a central tube. An axial copper tube, even having lost mass to migration, would withstand a fairly high external pressure, especially with pressurized water flowing through it. Think about how you would construct that and maintain over 300 psi of pressure. It would be easy to construct the stainless reactor assembly separately and surround it with the copper assembly. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
yes, I would think that a practical design would be to have a single large flow system with several of the stainless reactors down inside the flow instead of having a hundred widen copper tubes to make. I also think that the additive is something that keeps the Ni surface reduced and supports growth of nano structure on cheaper Ni micron level material (like in his patent photos of 10 micron Ni particles) something like: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL_udi=B6TX9-4VKXBWN-2_user=10_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2009_rdoc=1_fmt=high_orig=gateway_origin=gateway_sort=d_docanchor=view=c_searchStrId=1708626491_rerunOrigin=google_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_userid=10md5=4569566755ac4e9d238e648daa8d4cebsearchtype=a All the Cu migration is a red herring. I think it is just a good fresh surface of nano Ni that is important. ... perhaps a spill over catalyst but not as a major component. Dennis -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 6:25 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dennis den...@netmdc.com wrote: The patent drawings sure looks like cylinder type vessel containing Ni and surrounded by flowing water. Yeah, and that is probably similar to the 12 kW reactor; but, the heat variance over that amount of material required 5 heaters to control. The much simplified single heater with a smaller output is actually an ingenious modification, IMO. He probably solved the runaway issue and that gave him confidence enough to make the 1 MW array. It will look like several bumpy pipes feeding a steam chamber. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Oh no I agree with Jed. Notice if it is just a SS cylinder inside some flowing water, it would be very easy to scale up. Just a bigger pipe or even a pond with lots of Cylinders down inside . D2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 7:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. I gather Ed Storms also thinks that is the configuration, with the water flowing through the center of the bulge. Since the bulge is copper, that would mean the powder is in a copper container, not stainless steel. However, I think the container with the powder must be inside, hidden by the copper. I think the water flows through the pipe, around the outside of the hidden container. I say that because the configuration you describe would be a torus. It would difficult to fabricate, and difficult to work with that. You would have trouble inserting the powder and the resistance heaters. I would use a cylindrical container, rather than a torus. You have to anchor it to keep it from blocking the flow. I also say that because Rossi says it is stainless steel, and he has acquired a good bit of technical credibility in my opinion. All of the claims he made last year are now confirmed, including some extraordinary ones. I now take his claims at face value. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:So close, so far away
Is anyone out there good at running numbers? what is the comparison in surface area of Rossi's nanopowder and Mill's fine Ni wire? Dennis -- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 1:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:So close, so far away Interesting speculation, Jones. I never read Stolper's book. Nevertheless, I remember his scrappy posts from the old Yahoo Hydrino group, particularly as he incessantly went after Zimmerman. Does Stolper's book reveal any kind of useful detail as to what kind of additional catalysts might have been used in the old 40 pound Ni-H cell? I'm wondering if one were to do some data mining on the matter one could possibly end up with a reasonable facsimile/extrapolation as to the chemistry Rossi Co. are currently using as a catalyst for their e-Cat. Is such an extrapolation appropriate here, or not? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi impact betting pool?
-- From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:31 PM To: Vortex vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi impact betting pool? Jed sez: Incidentally, my wife expressed several belly laughs reading your predictions. And now, on to my predictions. When will the following events occur after Rossi sells his first E-Cat. * When will it be in the pages of the New York Times? Predictions .. Ok I should have done this on April Fools day. but 6 to 8 months: three independent researchers ( in US, Italy, and China) find a method of producing heat from gas loaded systems 10 to 12 months: Rossi fires up a 1 MW reactor in Greece after unexplained problems due to engineering issues and technology transfers out of the US. 12 to 18 month: CNN will be debating if it is real and how it will effect the elections. 18 to 24 months: a weapon will be created - akin to a fuel bomb but using Nickel powder instead of Al and on the Hydrogen lean side. It will release lots of gammas but short half life products- with similar impact as the neutron bomb. 24 to 36 months out: commercial items will be available from some countries. 36 to 48 months: environmentalist will try to stop commercial devices in the US but hundreds of red neck engineers will have already had them in their back 40 heating their dairy barns. Dennis
Re: [Vo]:Rather amazing LENR site (in French)
remember today's date Dennis Cravens From: Stephen A. Lawrence Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 11:16 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rather amazing LENR site (in French) On 04/01/2011 12:52 PM, francis wrote: Here is the pdf in English http://omael.com/!_HydroPlasmol_Telechargements/Resume/Projet_Hydro-Plasmol_Anglais.PDF They seem to embrace nuclear fusion, proton capture and splitting of molecular bonds by ZPE in their pulsed /HV electrolysis plasma but once again are putting engineering in front of theory as seems the only choice in this field. I often wondered about possible over unity when viewing the old star in a jar you tube videos but it looks like this group took the concept and ran with it! Another contender? Uh ... contender for what, exactly? I see in the English version they've switched to using baking soda rather than fireplace ashes for the electrolyte, but the iron cathode's still there. It was a couple of old bolts taped together in the first photos; in the English PDF they seem to have upgraded to using a spring. And there's no calorimetry mentioned anywhere -- no measurements of any sort, in fact. No evidence whatsoever that the thing does anything except use electricity to heat water. If there's a Neodyme Foundation involved in manufacturing anything at all (except maybe greeting cards), Google doesn't seem to know about it. This website appears to be some sort of strange joke. === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17230) http://www.pctools.com === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17230) http://www.pctools.com/ ===
Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland
I wonder when I see the nanosec pulses - a lot of room to get the input power wrong and the production of Pd and Ir from Zr?? Dennis C -- From: Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland - Original Message From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 3:27:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland Not to speak for others, let me report that Ed Storms thinks this guy is probably nuts. Could it be a hoax? Harry
Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland
That was Dennis Letts - it was Pd on Au for codep work and for coupling the red lasers. Dennis C From: Peter Gluck Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:37 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland Dera Jed I will ask him. If I remember well, Dennis Cravens had some cathodes with gold, don't know the structure (Pd covered with a layer of gold?) Not sure about it. On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Not to speak for others, let me report that Ed Storms thinks this guy is probably nuts. Peter: Ask Piantelli what he thinks of Au-H. Ohmori ran hundreds of thin gold samples and observed heat in many cases. The samples were small and it wasn't much heat. He did the cleanest electrochemistry I have ever seen. He showed me used samples and I thought they were virgin gold straight out the aqua regia bath. No tarnish at all. As I recall he used an extra cathode, a sacrificial cathode I believe it is called, which lets you do the experiment without sacrificing the virgin. As it were. I do not know anyone else who has tested gold. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland
Yes From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:PESN reports zirconium cold fusion in Poland Dennis wrote: That was Dennis Letts - it was Pd on Au for codep work and for coupling the red lasers. With heavy water, right? The gold was just the substrate. - Jed
[Vo]:reactor
..The indications we have, from the reactor to radiation readings and the materials they are seeing, suggest that the core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel in unit two, and at least some of it is down on the floor of the drywell, Lahey told the paper Dennis C
[Vo]:actual gas loaded systems
Out of curiosity- how many people are trying to produce a 100W gas loaded system? Are people actually trying to produce something or just talking about it? Dennis C
Re: [Vo]:reactor
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/29/workers-japan-nuke-plant-lost-race-save-reactor-expert-says/ Unit 2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:55 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:reactor Dennis wrote: ..The indications we have, from the reactor to radiation readings and the materials they are seeing, suggest that the core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel in unit two, and at least some of it is down on the floor of the drywell, Lahey told the paper Please identify source. Which reactor? This appears to be from abovetopsecret which is not always 100% reliable. I believe most sources claim the radioactivity would be a lot higher if the reactor vessel itself had been breached. Probably it is the torus under it, or a pipe leading into it. That's bad enough. There is no doubt that some of the reactors cores have melted. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Reuters: Plutonium Found Outside
One problem with using sea water to cool is that chlorides can form. I wonder if the Pu leak is from one of the reactors where sea water was used. I do not know how much of the oxides can be transformed to Cl's at high temps. I know little of Pu chemistry just remember all the nice colors. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Reuters: Plutonium Found Outside Ed Storms made the following comment about the plutonium: Plutonium comes in two forms. The oxide is insoluble in the body and, if trapped in the lungs, is quickly encapsulated by scar tissue that keeps the radiation from living tissue. In contrast, the water soluble forms go to the bone where they can cause cancer. Although the form found in soil is probably the oxide, it will be present along with many fission elements, including uranium, that are all bad. You should note, they only mentioned plutonium. This region of Japan will be useless for agriculture for decades. Naturally, they don't want to traumatize the populated any more than they already are, but the problems are just beginning. Ed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi John Galt?
Could Andrea Rossi become a John Galt and hide his free energy machine? My wife said there is a car in her parking lot with a sticker asking Who is John Galt? It occurred to me that, if the criticism becomes too great, AR might choose to hide his device per Jed's statement. My wife is curious about who in her multi-use office building owns the vehicle with the sticker. So I wrote up a Post-It with the rossiportal.com address and my personal email address and told her to stick it on his driver door window. I'll post the results here. T That could be me. I know I have had some John Galt stickers and even had an Atlas oil painting on my lab wall for years now. I was told by some gov. types that they would just take anything they wanted. ... I didn't and don't believe them, but still it is the attitude that gets you after a while. I know that Gene M. told me that as he was helping with the Saint movie that the yellow post-its and the idea that the invention would be given if just asked for came from me.. (the equations in the bra were rewritten from Peter H) Yet the reality, is that the ones that pay the piper call the tunes. When you get support you end up under a different set of rules. Dennis PS I think that the Atlas Shrugged movie comes out next month- in parts.
Re: [Vo]:H2 in ICE was: Upcoming mass spec tests
didn't Mark Hugo experiment with some of that. Ni and Lithium/Mo grease dissolved into fuel... in some car engine. years and years ago (10 years???) Dennis -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:15 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:H2 in ICE was: Upcoming mass spec tests On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 6:43 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Don't forget that there is likely to be a fair bit of free Hydrogen in a normal IC engine running on gasoline, which after all is a Hydro-carbon. So if H is anywhere near a reasonable catalyst, then we are likely already seeing Hydrino energy in normal combustion engines. Hmmm, so, a better catalyst injected into an IC engine . . .? T
Re: [Vo]:How to Prove that the Rossi/Focardi eCAT LENR is Real
that looks familiar. But remember correlation does not mean causation. Now I wonder if you can find my poster presentation for the same meeting : ) concerning gas loading yielding heat at higher temperatures .. The review was made at the request of the conference aimed at introducing new people to the field. But since Letts and I presented the review, I was relegated to the the poster session for the gas loading. At the time I was still having problem with my gas lines serving as heat pipes and introducing questions. But the bottom line there was that higher temps were better and I needed to get above 250 C or so to see much of anything. I am still no where near Rossi's 10Kw/100g Ni =100W/gm. I am still lucky to see 0.5 W/g on a good day. Oh I wish I know what Rossi's secret additive is. Dennis C From: Alan J Fletcher Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:12 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How to Prove that the Rossi/Focardi eCAT LENR is Real At 04:44 AM 3/24/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: I'm looking for a quote I read *YEARS* ago ... with respect to what you have to do to get PF Cold fusion to work Something like 5 essential steps, where the debunkers skipped one or more of them I do not understand this comment. No one knows what steps are essential to making cold fusion work. If we knew, we would do them every time and the experiment would always work. Found it! On some obscure CF site ... http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CravensDtheenablin.pdf The Enabling Criteria of Electrochemical Heat: Beyond Reasonable Doubt One hundred sixty seven papers from 1989 to 2007 concerning the generation of heat from electrochemical cells were collected, listed, and digitally posted to a CD for reference, review and study. A review showed four criteria that were correlated to reports of successful experiments attempting replication of the Fleischmann-Pons effect. All published negative results can be traced to researchers not fulfilling one or more of these conditions. Statistical and Bayesian studies show that observation of the Fleischmann-Pons effect is correlated with the criteria and that production of excess heat is a real physical effect beyond a reasonable doubt.
Re: [Vo]:Smoke spews from reactors
I know I use boraxo (with Water Gel Crystals =polyacrylamide). The boron has a fair n X-section and the PAM holds water and helps thermalize the n's. In these small gas loaded items I also plate the outside with gadolinium (a little goes a long way). D2 -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Smoke spews from reactors On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The boron carbide slurry I suggested is an incredibly bad idea! A very incredibly humble statement, IMO. :-) President Reagan had the, er, solution: http://www.buy.com/prod/20-mule-team-natural-laundry-booster-borax-76-oz/q/sellerid/28612218/loc/66357/205676200.html T
Re: [Vo]:Japan Explains Nuclear Problem to Japanese Kids
the cooling ponds -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 1:00 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Japan Explains Nuclear Problem to Japanese Kids On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPN4dfBAGU Totally nutty, just like you'd expect :) OMG. Okay, I get the gas and poo analogies; but, WTF is the diaper? T
Re: [Vo]:Reactors under control?
I think that they rotate the workers so than anyone does not get a really big dose. Dennis -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 4:52 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Reactors under control? So 750 workers have left and only 50 remain. How do they choose the divine wind? T
Re: [Vo]:Explosion at Fukushima nuclear power plant
Can someone here explain why nuclear sites are not required to have a gravity feed tank filled with borated water ready to flood reactors? What am I missing here. Dennis
Re: [Vo]:Reactor #3 just blew up, and another tsunami coming
My guess is they may have about 10 min to evac. I play IECC chess and one of my chess friends has 6 family members missing. He is displaced and doesn't know how to contact them or how they could contact him. Not knowing can be very stressful. A good family evacuation plan is to always have a contact point for the family. I would suggest every family have a 1) neighbor, 2) out of town, 3) out of state, and 4) out of country contact. A place to contact and regroup if you ever need it. Dennis -- From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:35 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Reactor #3 just blew up, and another tsunami coming From: Jed Rothwell Also there are aftershocks and another 3 meter tsunami is headed for the shore. Pseesh! I hope the rescue teams can get out in time!
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted
That would depend on his motivation and understanding He may have already rewritten his patents or has realized that there is a lot of other patent applications in the system. For example I know that I have a patent in using Ni , H, mixed with refractory oxides/silicates and using methods to create hydrogen fluxes through the system that has been floating around the US PTO for about 2 years now... I am fairly sure that there are at least 2 others about in the same situation. But I do think that making a 100 small units to reach 1MW is a bit misguided. Much better to get out a half a dozen and put them in hands of others to verify. I will be surprised if he meets his Sept. target. But it is his baby and he needs to do what he thinks is best for him. I found it interesting that he is just using about 100 g in his system. My guess is that he has about 2 kg of a stable oxide or silicate in there with the Ni. I know that I typically use about 2 % metal when mixing with Zirconium oxide (Cotronics ceramic mix) and using gas and thermal gradients, and about 15-20 % when I try to use electric currents through the sample. So his system is beginning to be a little more understandable. I just could not see how he could use 1 liters of Ni powder. The thing I do not understand is that I would have expect people to notice a pulse of noise from a gas pressure switching system. I wonder if he can do it without a non-static H2 pressure. I can't do that. I have to have some dynamic condition. But then again, he might be doing something inside to cause a dynamic condition. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 8:45 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted Rossi sounds naive at times, but then he says (in this QA session) Sooner or later we will get competition, and nothing will stop this. It would be like try to stop the Niagara Falls with an umbrella. Since he realizes that, I think he should concentrate on getting a patent, and he should put aside the 1 MW reactor plan for now. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted
-- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 10:50 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted Just another excellent opinion being express here... (MINE, of course!) There seems to be much discussion about tactics and MOs... and, sigh..., I think we miss the most important point of all. Much of Rossi's predilections, warts and all, strike me as highly altruistic in nature. Altruism is a rare human trait of the highest order that can be bestowed on a human being. Yes, I think that many (here) try to always look at the motivation of Rossi et al, as only being monetary gain. They then do not understand the actions of Rossi. There are many in this field that are motivated more by altruism and will gladly give their results and knowledge away. The problem, of course, is that the financial supporters often restrict the actions of the researchers. It is nice to know that Rossi does not seem to be restricted in that way.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted
Yes, you are right. The US changed from the first to invent to the first to file under Clinton. I disagree with the idea (then and now) but it what we are under now. I do not know what his secret is, so I do not know if he is safe or not. There is a lot of information out there about, dynamic flux of H, Ni and H, small particles, zeolites, silicates, zirconium oxide, nanoparticles, . so those are not directly patentable. but again I don't know what he has. I also know you cannot patent the physical laws and natural processes in the US. For example, I don't think you could patent - say the proton capture by nickel. The things that would be patentable would likely be working at such and such pressure, such and such temperatures, materials with specific composition, methods of control The question then becomes what conditions are required and which are not and if there are alternative routes to achieve the same physical reactions. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:04 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted I told he should make haste to file another patent because if someone else finds the secret they will file a patent before him. He said that if someone else files a patent that patent would be invalid because he has already discovered the secret. I do not know much about patent laws but I believe he is wrong about that. At least in the US it does not matter whether you are the second or third person to discover something as long as you are the first to file patent. If you steal the idea from the discoverer your claim would be invalid, but I believe if you independently discover it you can get a patent. there is enough information about Rossi device out there that someone may independently discovered. I do not think it would take 1000 Iterations, which is how many Rossi says it took. (I assume those are round numbers, and they include many minor variations done rapidly.) Even if it does, there are plenty of organizations who could assign 100 people to the job and have each of them do 10 iterations in a reasonably short time. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted
My understanding is that he is NOT correct. It does not matter if someone else has done it if they have not filed on it. unless it was placed into public domain. And even then, I think (but not sure) that there is a window of one year from information release and a patent filing. So for example, if he has a reaction that requires X but he has not filed on adding X and has not publicly disclosed that X is required then I/you/anyone could file on a system that uses X. So if I find how to use X to make it work, then I have invented it. My understanding, you have not invented anything unless you disclose it in a way that others can do it. So having something that work is not the same as being able to teach someone else to do it and not the same as describing it publically so that others know what was done to get it to work. Basically, trade secrets can be discovered and if no law (espionage type) was broken in obtaining the trade secret, then the discoverer is free to use or patent it. Dennis -- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:26 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted That's supposed to say I told HIM he should make haste to file another patent . . . His response: BY LAW, YOU CANNOT PATENT A THING THAT OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE, EVEN IF THEY HAVE NOT PATENTED IT. I think he is wrong about that. If someone here knows a lot about patent law, please advise. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted
The first to file in the US is assumed the inventor and any others have the burden of proof to show that they invented it before hand and taught the method beforehand. Rossi's obvious problem would then be to show why, if he understood the method, did not fully disclose it at the time he made his patent application since he was required to full disclose it at that time. It would still be in his best interest to fully disclose his methods in a patent application (to the degree there was no undo experimentation required by others). Anything else would lead to a very rough and uncertain road. Dennis -- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 1:30 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2011/03/america-invents-act-first-to-invent- and-a-filing-date-focus.html Problem is - this change has passed the Senate, but is not signed into law. -Original Message- From: Dennis Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi on-line QA posted My understanding is that he is NOT correct. It does not matter if someone else has done it if they have not filed on it. unless it was placed into public domain. And even then, I think (but not sure) that there is a window of one year from information release and a patent filing.
Re: [Vo]:P.M. Kan orders evacuation from nuke plant
-- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Subject: [Vo]:P.M. Kan orders evacuation from nuke plant ... The announcer is now talking about the nuke at Fukushima and the fact that people within 3 km were ordered to move. P.M. Kan just ordered everyone within 10 km to evacuate . . . It seems there is now a tiny amount of radioactive material leaking from the plant. ... - Jed The lose of coolant is one of the things I worry about with these gas loaded systems. They seem to have a positive temperature coef. and put out more excess at higher temperatures. I hope that Rossi et al has given some consideration to safety shutdowns for their 1MW system. Dennis
Re: [Vo]:This is how Rossi is financing his E-cat
He needs 100 of them and he has built and destroyed more than a thousand. Does this mean that his successful reproducibility is less than 10% D2 -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:This is how Rossi is financing his E-cat He also claims that more than a thousand reactors have been built and destroyed during the development. Edisonian and serendipity do appear to be correct descriptive terms, n'est-ce pas? T
Re: [Vo]:Latest Rossi news at PESN
you will want to look at: http://www-ferp.ucsd.edu/ARIES/DOCS/Hoffer9505/NRCjurisdiction.pdf It is likely that it would be classed as a Pre-demo device not operated as part of the power generation facilities of an electric utility system for the purpose of demonstrating the suitability for commercial application see paragraph 202.2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 4:43 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Latest Rossi news at PESN ...My guess is that no laws or regulations in the U.S. cover the use of a 1 MW nuclear fusion reactor manufactured by a private company. It is without precedent, and the bureaucracy will have no earthly idea how to deal with it. For that reason it will probably be invisible to the bureaucracy. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi credibility
It is interesting to me that the hydrogen usage in Rossi's system was around 0.4 g (If I remember correctly) If we knew the amount of Ni, we could estimate the loading ratio It sounds like just surface loading. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi credibility I wrote: But it is additional evidence that the Ni-H system can produce high temperatures and high power density. The only previous examples were Piantelli and Focardi. And Patterson! Which was also Ni and Pd. Closer to Ahern. High power density at low temperature. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Zirconium-96
Zirconium-96 From: Jones Beene Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 8:46 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Zirconium-96 If zirconium (as zirconia) should turn-up as Rossi's secret catalyst - which to be honest is doubtful except for knowing how the Arata/Kitamura/Takahashi etc result may depend on Zr . but if it does turn up in the E-Cat, the following could be relevant in leading to a working theory based on expanding Haisch/Moddel and Casimir heating. ... The nice thing for me is that it is a proton conductor.
Re: [Vo]:Detecting a Fake 10KW Rossi/Focardi eCat Device
I still think it is a mistake to approach the demo from its purpose was to prove mode and it could be fake. However, what if the Hydrogen gas measure was wrong (say gauge jammed) and the 1 L vessel only held a hot Pt wire and an air leak. How much heat could you get from burning H2 to H20? There would be no smoke, nothing but steam as a product. The control would need to be nothing more than something to heat a Pt wire ( s ). How can you rule it out? What if you assume the counter positive. that it was not a Fake and Rossi new that? What information can we glean? The part I don't understand is why did Rossi have any demo at all? What was his motive if he already had funding and people working on multiple devices to cascade together. Why not just wait for the 1MW? Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Jeff Driscoll hcarb...@gmail.com wrote: .. Also, as I mentioned, canisters of H2 and O2 placed inside the box at these high temperature would explode. I think this is not intended to be an analysis of what might have actually happened, since it is obvious that none of the proposed reactions could actually occur in only 1 L at such high temperatures. I think this is a look at the extreme limits of chemical reactions, ignoring practical considerations such as the fact that the fuel would explode, or it would emit toxic smoke and kill the observers. It is interesting as such. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
In the early days of CF I talked with some SALT treaty people at LANL about the legal implications of cold fusion. Basically, if a device is not producing neutrons or is using materials with none-natural isotopic materials it seems to fall outside of the legal jurisdiction of such treaties and organization. Basically the system did not anticipate nuclear systems that emit no neutrons go figure. I am not sure that a proton capture device would fall within the jurisdictions of the NRC. Perhaps some other group that governs low level radiation. D2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 7:20 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Yes. Your fear would be shared by the majority in the USA, and that is likely to be the major reason that Rossi is not doing it here. He knows he would not see this device sold here during his lifetime, due to the NRC. I think you are exaggerating the power of the NRC! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
Yes, the system tends toward inaction instead of action. Like in Wisconsin, some senators ran away to avoid voting and acting while there is great pain and hostility developing from their avoiding the democratic process. People tend to do nothing instead of acting. I fear that the system when confronted with a new technology will mainly run away to avoid acting while society suffers pain from the lack of clean energy. Large level implementation will suffer. However, the inaction may also result in implementing some of the technology. There seems little way to control its low level implementation by individuals. It would take a concerted effort and lots of action to prevent backwoods use of say 1-5 kW home heaters built by good old boys. Think about what it would take to prevent people from accessing Nickel and hydrogen and a steel tube and perhaps a reasonable vacuum pump made from an old refrigerator compressor. I for one will be trying be in a position to heat my house within 2 years, assuming I can get something to work. I have found no rules, laws, material restrictions, preventing that path. Dennis C -- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com However, do not underestimate the capacity of politicians and society in general to behave some of the most stupid counter-productive ways imaginable. Having been personally involved for weeks in on-going debates over Wisconsin's budget concerning the contentious matter of destroying collective bargaining rights for public employees, an issue that has now garnered national attention over the matter of what does killing this provision have to do with balancing Wisconsin's budget... I have to say pretty conclusively that when well-funded ideology grabs the steering wheel, logic, practicality, and pragmatism, are often forced to the back of the bus. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:How to fake a large-scale demonstration
I believe that a 1MW system is not the way for Rossi to go. I do not understand the rational. What would you do with 1MW composed of 100 units? Again, several independent 1 to 10 KW system are more realistic. They could easily be placed on a glass table or something like that or be free to move from location to location. Even in the 10 to 100 kW range a system that could say - move a car would be more believable by the public and prove no hidden wires.. (steam dune buggy--- he said smiling) I would suggest that 2 or 3 separate 1-10kW systems to be tested by others would be more convincing than a un examinable 1MW system with no controls or ways to isolate it. Again I am not he, but I would opt for several small units to prove reproducibility, allow for free examination to show no faking, allow for use of other's measurement systems to show no mistaken numbers, and run for extended times to show unique reactions. But then I think he is busy on his own direction (tunnel vision) and will not be reading these blogs. D2 If I had lots of money and time I think I would find it easier to fake a large demonstration than a 10 kW one. People here and elsewhere have discussed elaborate methods of faking the 10 kW demonstration, such as hiding wires, replacing the wires in the walls to allow more electric power input, or using a fluid that looks like water but is not. If you had hundreds of thousands of dollars and months to prepare, you might be able to arrange this sort of thing. But my point is that with a small-scale device, it is much easier to catch such tricks. An outside observer can stop by Radio Shack and purchase a few tools such as the Kill A Watt meter, a thermistor and an ordinary bucket to measure all of the key parameters. The machine is not bolted to the floor. It is free standing on a piece of wood. So there is no way to hide wires going through the table legs. I am NOT suggesting that Rossi is planning to do any of the above. I am pointing out how a suspicious person would view a test of this nature. I think is a given that if a 1 MW test is reported many people in the mass media and on the Internet will claim that something like what I described here must have occurred. They will not be convinced. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
On Friday, March 04, 2011 9:55 AM Jones Beene wrote I wonder if a magnetic pulse, or a pulse wave is involved in the operation. Jones, I am now coming to this same conclusion, thermal transfer rates from 5 PLC heaters spread throughout 1 liter of powder doesn't seem fast enough. I had the feeling that the heating was by directly passing the current through the metal bed - that would make for very fast transfer. Dennis
[Vo]:How NOT to worry about Fakes
There is another way to view all this. For weeks now there has been discussion here about how the system could be faked or what Rossi should do. I seriously doubt that he cares what is said here and likely does not read it. It could be that he does not even need to worry about others doubts and how to prove his system. For example what if some company just says: here is a warehouse, here is a sewer drain, here is a water hydrant, and here is an electric utility pole and meter. Now just give us 1MW of heat in the water flow for 2 weeks. He moves his device(s) into the warehouse and does it.---Game over, no cries of fake, no problem. If I was a company, that is how I would proceed. That would explain his actions to me. Dennis
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
and I would like to see what he will use as his control. Dennis -- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 3:50 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration Yesterday I wrote that it can be surprisingly difficult to evaluate the performance of a large machine. That probably sounds odd. Let me explain a bit, while I try to anticipate some of the honest skeptical objections that might be raised about a 1 MW demonstration. Rossi is sometimes open to suggestions and if we can come up with ways to avoid these problems perhaps he will make adjustments. Let's look at what we know about the proposed demonstration, and think about how to measure the effect. THE 1 MW DEMO
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
Unless he can unplug it... Most any system will tend to be messy at that level for any system that runs for extended times (days??) to rule out chemistry. I think he would do better by just making something in the 1 to 10 KW (thermal) range that ran for a week unplugged. If his claims are real, he should have enough gain for that even at only 5% conversion rates. D2 -- From: Mitchell Swartz m...@theworld.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 6:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration Dennis, Indeed . And that would be controls. It might be a minority view; several controls are needed. He needs a metachronous 1 MW pulse for enough time and energy for the system to reach the same temp and heat deposited that the LANR system would expect to achieve in the steady state, ... and synchronous calibration pulses of a fraction of that power. ..
Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration
Yes, I meant that it would be more convincing if a smaller device was used (10's to 100KW) and that it turned a steam engine, stirling,. that could convert the heat and it then could be run without any access to external power sources. Notice I do not wish to imply that the water flow also be required to be powered by the device. I don't see much advantage in going from an uncontrolled 10 kW demo with no control and little instrumentation to a 1MW device with no control and even less instrumentation with no chance of independent verification of the measurements and check by first principles. I would expect you would have to have some external power source to start the device. I don't see the risk in the electrical conversion conversion failure. I don't think that the device would fail to disaster if the stimulation/heater/ whatever (80 or so Watts used in the demo) would be removed. Perhaps if the cooling water is turned off but not the stimulation. A self powered device that heats a water flow would be fairly convincing - if run for an extended time. D2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 7:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Anticipating skeptical objections to a 1 MW demonstration Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: He cannot safely unplug it, we are told. I think Cravens meant Rossi should use the heat to generate electricity and make the device self-sustaining. He added: If his claims are real, he should have enough gain for that even at only 5% conversion rates. That probably refers to thermoelectric generator conversion rates. I don't think he meant the machine should be literally unplugged. As you said, that is reportedly dangerous. That is why I suppose the control electronics should have a battery back up system. I think it would be unwise to make a thermoelectric generator and a completely stand-alone machine at this stage. For safety's sake, AC input with a battery backup is the most reliable, tried-and-true method. Stand-alone operation would not prove anything that 1:200 input:output ratio does not already prove. A skeptic who would question the 1:200 ratio would also doubt that the thermoelectric stand alone machine is what it appears to be. If it were safe to turn off the power completely, then perhaps a thermoelectric stand-alone machine would be a good idea. In the future, after the technology matures, a stand alone self-sustaining machine should be perfectly safe. I'll bet it will still have a battery though . . . for decades to come. It will be needed for safety and also for a cold start, assuming anyone ever shuts down one of these things. (Why would you? Maybe for maintenance or to ship it before installation.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC Night tours of illuminated factories in Japan
check out the view from space: http://www1.american.edu/ted/icecases/maps/korea-map.jpg notice Japan and S Korea compared to N. Korea. I know D. Rumsfeld always kept a copy of that picture in his desk. I live in NM which is a dark sky state. No Hg vapor or upward turned light are permitted. I enjoy a dark clear sky and the milky way. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 6:59 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC Night tours of illuminated factories in Japan Just now on Good Morning Japan they had a segment about a new vacation tour trend. People are taking buses and boat to see . . . illuminated industrial plants at night. See, for example this tour-guide company: http://www.reservedcruise.com/fact/
Re: [Vo]:Fleischmann's Type A palladium
I know that my best early work was with Pd+Ag. I used the old Shaffer fountain pin numbs (circa late 50's) The diffusion palladium was 23% Ag if memory serves. Fleischmann's boil off cathode had Ce in it if memory serves. D2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 2:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Fleischmann's Type A palladium Terry Blanton wrote: I agree. However, even people who bought their Pd from the same source as FP (Johnson Matthey?) had less success because there was something special in the way it was processed. I think that process has yet to be revealed? I'm sure Jed would remember. The process wasn't all that special, and it is not secret. When he began this research, Fleischmann went to Johnson Matthey (JM) and told them he wanted Pd that can be highly loaded without cracking. They recommended the Pd material they developed in the 1930s for hydrogen filters. Fleischmann later called this Type A. He distributed samples to many researchers, who had much higher success with it than with any other type. See Table 10 here, p. 43, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf The cathodes labeled (F/P) came from Fleischmann. They all worked, and they produced more heat than the others. At BARC they used an actual hydrogen filter to run a cold fusion experiment. It worked splendidly. As I recall, someone at NASA also did this. JM has changed the method they used to make this type of Pd. The newer type might not work as well. Then again, it might work. As far as I know, no one has the money to find out. JM offered to make up a batch for Fleischmann and me, with cathodes cut to specification, but their minimum order was 1 kg and I could not afford it. Probably, by now Violante's group at the ENEA knows as much about how to make effective Pd as JM did. They may have wasted 15 years finding out, when they might have just asked JM to tell them. Or sell them some. During the Toyota cold fusion project in France, there was a strange agreement between Toyota and JM. JM supplied the materials and then took them back, doing all the analysis. They wouldn't tell Toyota what they found. No one I know has any idea what happened to the data. Their is bad blood between them. The way I heard it, Toyota wanted JM to share the information, and they offered them peanuts. (I believe that is how it was described to me, peanuts, meaning a small amount, not the 1970s Japanese Lockheed scandal in which 1 peanut = $1 million). The key calorimetric data from that project also disappeared. Fleischmann had quite a lot of it on paper. Someone broke into his house and took it. They did not take anything else, so I suppose this was no ordinary thief. He asked Toyota for new copies but they never responded. He is pretty upset about the whole thing, as you can imagine. Below is a memo about Type A Pd that I wrote in February 2000. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Type A palladium saga February 7, 2000 For many years Martin Fleischman has been recommending a particular type of palladium made by Johnson Matthey for cold fusion experiments. He has been saying this to anyone who will listen, but very few people do. He handed out several of these ideal cathodes to experienced researchers, and as far as he knows in every case the samples produced excess heat. The material was designated Type A palladium by Fleischmann and Pons. It was developed decades ago for use in hydrogen diffusion tubes: filters that allow hydrogen to pass while holding back other gasses. This alloy was designed to have great structural integrity under high loading. It lasts for years, withstanding cracking and deformation that would quickly destroy other alloys and allow other gasses to seep through the filters. This robustness happens to be the quality we need for cold fusion. The main reason cold fusion is difficult to reproduce is because when bulk palladium loads with deuterium, it cracks, bends, distorts and it will not load above a certain level, usually ~60%, I think. Below 85 to 90% loading bulk palladium never produces excess heat. A sample of palladium chosen at random from most suppliers will *never* reach this level of loading. You could perform thousands of tests for cold fusion with ordinary palladium, with perfect confidence that you will never see measurable excess heat. That is essentially what the NHE did: they performed the wrong experiment hundreds of times in succession, using materials which everyone knows cannot work. This is like trying to make a 27-story building out of doughnuts. It seems likely to me that most of the reproducibility problems with bulk palladium CF would have been solved years ago if people had only listened to Martin Fleischman's advice. Alas, in my experience, people seldom listen to advice or follow directions. Fleischman sometimes compounds the problem by speaking in a cryptic,
[Vo]:Rossi's Nickel
I notice in Rossi's patents, he specifies the Nickel was from : [0094] Powder nickel: Gerli Metalli--Milan Has anyone here tried to find out what kinds of nickel they make. Carbonyl nickel? special alloys? Do they really make nano sized materials or is it just nickel powders (like in the patent pictures of 10 micron). Anyone here read Italian? Dennis Cravens
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Nickel
I notice in Rossi's patents, he specifies the Nickel was from : [0094] Powder nickel: Gerli Metalli--Milan Has anyone here tried to find out what kinds of nickel they make. Carbonyl nickel? special alloys? Do they really make nano sized materials or is it just nickel powders (like in the patent pictures of 10 micron). No nano nor Raney Ni shown. :-( T Rossi's patents show particles of 10 microns not nano. (he mentions nano in claims but that is not what the pictures show) I don't think that he was rich enough to get a liter of nano nickel for these experiments. --- a dollar or two per gram if you are lucky. Right now I would guess he just used carbonyl produced nickel as used in powder metallurgy. Something like- Vale Inco Products -Nickel Powder Type 123 It looks close to his photos. Gerli Metalli listed in the patent is associated with Vale. Now perhaps some investigative type might see if Gerli Metalli will just sell us some nickel the same as they sold Rossi.. if they are not restricted some how from telling. They might enjoy the business Dennis Cravens
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Nickel
The size and shape looks more like PM Nickel to me: http://www.korea-nickel.co.kr/products/powders.asp and it seems more in keeping with what is listed in the patent as: Powder nickel: Gerli Metalli--Milan I don't see them making Raney nickel. Dennis C -- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 3:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi's Nickel At the magnification used, this patent image is consistent with Raney nickel IMO. You can see that the globules have a lot of smaller nano features which would not be resolved without far greater magnification. Are not the globules consistent with this image? http://www.esrf.eu/Industry/case-studies/raney-nickel/raney-nickel
Re: [Vo]:Hidden wire hypothesis redux
-- From: Jed Rothwell ..Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hidden wire hypothesis redux ... Here is an example of an experiment that could be faked. Dennis Cravens proposed to use Pd-D powder to produce heat inside a thermoelectric device that would light an LED. Now Cravens is as honest as the day is long, and I would not accuse him of faking anything. But I told him that in my opinion this experiment would not be convincing because it would be easy to hide a tiny battery and thin wires in such a device, to keep the LED glowing for weeks. The set up would seem suspicious to intelligent people with a suspicious turn of mind. People such as Levi, who described prudential checks for hidden wires and the like. Jed, thanks for the compliment... I think Yes, it would be hard to fake much over 1kW... wall plugs being what they are, gauge of wires being what they are. (unless you used part of the plumbing as your current carrier). So it is becoming very interesting -if you believe any steam numbers over a few kW. I do not know what I think about Rossi. However, I am now clearing my decks and starting to work on a replication - the best I can without specifics of catalysts, operating parameters. I do feel strongly that someone somewhere MUST try a similar experiment. (replication impossible without Rossi telling all and that is not going to happen for a while) It looks like the lot may fall to me. I had been working with 1 -10 gram samples for gas loading. I will now be trying Ni powder kg + size samples. I am still trying to get the parts but after my lab makeover (the snow is melted and I am ready to go back to work), I should be able to dump up to 25 kW and remain at constant temp for the work. My real target will be in the 1 to 2 kW range but I want extra cooling- just in case. I still have to gather some bigger pumps, a large dewar, drill holes in the wall for extra water flow, and have a vessel machined ---Open lab, nothing hidden, pumping from barrel to barrel for short runs for reality checks, there will even be a place for someone to us a clamp on amp meter for the entire lab if they want... I figure I may have something going within a month or two with a little luck. Dennis Cravens PS. I could not get to the critical mass for Pd in my system to light the LED and could not sustain the sample at an elevated working temperature. PPS - for the curious few- I will be able to dump lots of heat since I live on a mountain stream and plan on using counter flow cooling on my outflow.
Re: [Vo]:Hidden wire hypothesis redux
Lots of people feel that way, and are doing similar experiments. As far as I know, Brian Ahern is leading the pack. Ask him for some of his material. He was one of these people who made a large impact at ICCF-16 without being there. He told me he will never go to India .. - Jed Yes, I am in contact with Brian and have traded a few recipes. Dennis Cravens
[Vo]:Rossi Ni material
I am not too good at looking at Electron microscope pictures perhaps someone here can help me understand Rossi's pictures in his patents. us20110005506A1 http://www.google.com/patents?id=84vwEBAJpg=PA1lpg=PA1dq=us20110005506A1+Rossisource=blots=qIO9bKdbuQsig=gHJvMrVVzvM4orfP4ggDk4-D_YMhl=enei=7a1lTa_1KZCasAO68bSFBQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepageqf=false It looks like his particle size is around 10 microns and that he labels the Si and Co peaks (he assumes the Zn is a product) Is that how others read it? So could his catalyst additives be Si and Co? Dennis Cravens
Fw: [Vo]:Rossi Wrap-up
Like or not, unless another experimenter or group - more open to disclosure of the operational details, can approximate the Rossi results of extremely high COP at the kilowatt level, in the next few months leading up to the promised MW demonstration, then it is going to be a frustrating period for LENR researchers at many levels. I agree there needs to be an independent replication of the device that offers an open demo. I fear that if Rossi fails to produce a 1MW system by Sept then the field will be harmed. I am working on a path similar to Rossi (high temp gas loading) but with only sporadic and inconsistent results. I do have the capability to work up to 1 or 2 kW with ease and higher with a little modification. I would be happy to receive help in an effort to replicate the Rossi system. I am talking actual physical support not talk or money. - material preparation, machining,... Please let me know if anyone finds out exactly what Rossi is using and the conditions. Let me know if anyone wishes to join forces. I feel we are at a tipping point. Either Rossi is correct and things will develop quickly, or he is wrong and there will be great damage to the field. Someone somewhere needs to do an independent replication or at least an attempt - hopefully with Rossi's blessings , but it needs to be done. A replication would need to be completely open to serious investigators. I am welcome to the idea of an open lab. (within reason) My guess is that Rossi will to busy between now and Sept to do such a thing himself. Dennis Cravens
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Wrap-up
in S. N.M. (Cloudcroft) I would think that he considers himself covered or he would not have gone public with a demo. Notice that in one of his interviews he said - let others go and do the same. I doubt that the patent office will grant anything unless he fully discloses his material and methods. He should know that by now. I would think that any of his patent applications would start to appear within a year of the demo. Basically, I have to put in additives of a rare earth, Th or U to get much effect and I have to have a mix of inert material (zeolite, Al or Zr oxide, silicate...) to isolate my active particles. Mine always sintered after a few cycles if I did not. ... However I am nowhere near his levels. -only still around 1W/gram. ( about the same as presented at ICCF 14 poster session). -- From: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 6:10 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Wrap-up What part of the country are you in? Rossi will see any work at replication as an attempt to steal his pot of gold. I wouldn't bother asking for his blessing. Sent from my iPhone.
