Re: [NOTICE] Wave is Retired - What's next?
Yes - that's gonna be a question for someone who was around when incubation was starting. Can you subscribe to those lists still? On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, at 2:50 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > Zachary, > > Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you on that. > > John > > On 2018/01/27 18:59:09, Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I do not recall getting an answer to this before: do we still have access > > to the old (pre-Apache) mailing list? > > > > Zachary Yaro > > > > On Jan 27, 2018 10:53, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, at 2:34 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I missed sending the notice to this list, apologies. The vote to retire > > > Wave has passed. > > > > > > I'm going to begin the process of marking source code as read only, as > > well > > > as shutting down the lists. > > > > John, > > > > Would it be possible to schedule the list shutdown at a fixed point in the > > future? e.g. 1week? > > > > Then those that remain here have that time to arrange a new venue for > > communication. If no such discussion happens - so be it, but at least there > > was a window for that discussion. > > > > Upayavira > >
Re: [NOTICE] Wave is Retired - What's next?
On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, at 2:34 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > Hi all, > > I missed sending the notice to this list, apologies. The vote to retire > Wave has passed. > > I'm going to begin the process of marking source code as read only, as well > as shutting down the lists. John, Would it be possible to schedule the list shutdown at a fixed point in the future? e.g. 1week? Then those that remain here have that time to arrange a new venue for communication. If no such discussion happens - so be it, but at least there was a window for that discussion. Upayavira
[VOTE] Retire Wave
Wave is currently in the Apache Incubator, which has expectations of how a project matures. Wave, being a small project, over its seven years of incubation, is not showing signs of reaching graduation. Thus, it seems time we accept that the Incubator is not the place for this project. Retirement need not halt development - it simply means that Apache is not the venue, and the project is relieved of the constraints and demands that Apache places upon it. Once retired, anyone can push the project code, for example, to GitHub. All that is required is that the terms of the Apache License continue to be honoured. If the vote is to retire, then before actioning the retirement, we can have a discussion on this list to see if we can reach a consensus as to where the code might move to, or to see if there is a volunteer who is willing to carry out the migration work. This vote is really aimed at members of the Wave PPMC, however general votes are welcomed. [ ] +1 Retire Wave [ ] 0 Abstain [ ] -1 Keep Wave in the Apache Incubator Upayavira
Re: Resigning as mentor: what next?
There are two questions here: 1. Is the Wave podling at the ASF going to terminate? 2. Is the Wave codebase going to persist somewhere else, in which case, where, and who will be a part of that effort? The first requires a vote of the PPMC, followed by a vote of the Incubator PMC. The second just requires a consensus, here. Upayavira On Wed, 29 Nov 2017, at 05:06 PM, Upayavira wrote: > I would say that the vote should happen as soon as it can. The ASF won't > put us under undue pressure to move things elsewhere (so long as they > actually happen!) > > Upayavira > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2017, at 04:01 PM, Yuri Z wrote: > > Ok, let's wait some time. But, repo, jira and documentation will stay - > > as > > read only. > > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 5:39 PM Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > If possible, I think it would be better to hold off on the vote until we > > > know what the new homes for the mailing list, code repo, and documentation > > > will be, and ensure we can update waveprotocol.org with those details. > > > > > > Zachary Yaro > > > > > > On 29 November 2017 at 04:41, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > So, if we have a consensus, I will send the retirement vote email in a > > > few > > > > days. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:35 AM Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I think I still have admin permissions for waveprotocol.org > > > > > I can add you as admin in can you want to start working on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:53 PM Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Just so I understand, what would be the criteria for the project > > > > rejoining > > > > >> the Apache Incubator in the future? > > > > >> > > > > >> For instance, we have had several people (myself included) comment > > > that > > > > >> they would become more frequent contributors to the project once the > > > > >> server > > > > >> and client were sufficiently decoupled that a JavaScript client could > > > be > > > > >> worked on separately from the Java GWT client. Should that happen, > > > and > > > > >> regular work on the project continue, could the project easily > > > > >> rejoin, > > > > or > > > > >> would there be a higher barrier to reentry? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> And on another note, if the project is retired, what happens to the > > > > >> documentation and mailing list archives from Apache, and would > > > anything > > > > be > > > > >> done to help migrate that elsewhere? > > > > >> > > > > >> (On a related note, do we still have access to waveprotocol.org and > > > the > > > > >> related mailing list? That would seem to be the logical place to > > > > migrate > > > > >> to.) > > > > >> > > > > >> Zachary Yaro > > > > >> > > > > >> On 27 November 2017 at 14:43, Dustin Pfannenstiel < > > > > >> dustin.pfannenst...@nth-estate.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > I've set up a repo and organization for the code base on github. > > > > >> > https://github.com/TimaeusWave/WaveServer > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thanks for the years of support and, well, just everything. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > DMP > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 04:46 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > > > >> > >> The in depth "incubator required stuff" is at > > > > >> > >> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html for review > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> Basically, > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> - We have this conversation. Ensure that there's consensus on > > > the > > > > >> > future > > > > >> > >> of the project. > > > > >> > >> - Call a vote. When we call a vote, one of us will send notice > > > to > > > > >> > >> incubator. > > > > >> > >> - Vote again on general@incubator. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> I do want to make sure there are two things abundantly clear: > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> - Retirement isn't failure. Wave didn't fail as a project. > > > > >> > >> - It's better to describe it as "this isn't a good fit as an > > > Apache > > > > >> > >> project." Apache projects tend to have at least three people > > > > >> available > > > > >> > >> at all times, either making changes, merging in changes, or able > > > to > > > > >> cut > > > > >> > >> releases. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > What John described above is the process from Apache's side. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > The code is publicly available under an Apache License. Any of > > > > >> > > you > > > > can > > > > >> > > push your local repo up to GitHub and share it with whoever you > > > > like, > > > > >> > > using a name that includes the word "Wave", so that would be a > > > step > > > > >> > > alongside the more ASF-focussed administrative tasks above. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Upayavira > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Resigning as mentor: what next?
I would say that the vote should happen as soon as it can. The ASF won't put us under undue pressure to move things elsewhere (so long as they actually happen!) Upayavira On Wed, 29 Nov 2017, at 04:01 PM, Yuri Z wrote: > Ok, let's wait some time. But, repo, jira and documentation will stay - > as > read only. > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 5:39 PM Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > If possible, I think it would be better to hold off on the vote until we > > know what the new homes for the mailing list, code repo, and documentation > > will be, and ensure we can update waveprotocol.org with those details. > > > > Zachary Yaro > > > > On 29 November 2017 at 04:41, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > So, if we have a consensus, I will send the retirement vote email in a > > few > > > days. > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:35 AM Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Yeah, I think I still have admin permissions for waveprotocol.org > > > > I can add you as admin in can you want to start working on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:53 PM Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Just so I understand, what would be the criteria for the project > > > rejoining > > > >> the Apache Incubator in the future? > > > >> > > > >> For instance, we have had several people (myself included) comment > > that > > > >> they would become more frequent contributors to the project once the > > > >> server > > > >> and client were sufficiently decoupled that a JavaScript client could > > be > > > >> worked on separately from the Java GWT client. Should that happen, > > and > > > >> regular work on the project continue, could the project easily rejoin, > > > or > > > >> would there be a higher barrier to reentry? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> And on another note, if the project is retired, what happens to the > > > >> documentation and mailing list archives from Apache, and would > > anything > > > be > > > >> done to help migrate that elsewhere? > > > >> > > > >> (On a related note, do we still have access to waveprotocol.org and > > the > > > >> related mailing list? That would seem to be the logical place to > > > migrate > > > >> to.) > > > >> > > > >> Zachary Yaro > > > >> > > > >> On 27 November 2017 at 14:43, Dustin Pfannenstiel < > > > >> dustin.pfannenst...@nth-estate.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > I've set up a repo and organization for the code base on github. > > > >> > https://github.com/TimaeusWave/WaveServer > > > >> > > > > >> > Thanks for the years of support and, well, just everything. > > > >> > > > > >> > DMP > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 04:46 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > > >> > >> The in depth "incubator required stuff" is at > > > >> > >> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html for review > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Basically, > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> - We have this conversation. Ensure that there's consensus on > > the > > > >> > future > > > >> > >> of the project. > > > >> > >> - Call a vote. When we call a vote, one of us will send notice > > to > > > >> > >> incubator. > > > >> > >> - Vote again on general@incubator. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> I do want to make sure there are two things abundantly clear: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> - Retirement isn't failure. Wave didn't fail as a project. > > > >> > >> - It's better to describe it as "this isn't a good fit as an > > Apache > > > >> > >> project." Apache projects tend to have at least three people > > > >> available > > > >> > >> at all times, either making changes, merging in changes, or able > > to > > > >> cut > > > >> > >> releases. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > What John described above is the process from Apache's side. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The code is publicly available under an Apache License. Any of you > > > can > > > >> > > push your local repo up to GitHub and share it with whoever you > > > like, > > > >> > > using a name that includes the word "Wave", so that would be a > > step > > > >> > > alongside the more ASF-focussed administrative tasks above. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Upayavira > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
Re: Resigning as mentor: what next?
Pablo - those are reasonable steps for the non-Apache side of this, yes. On Tue, 28 Nov 2017, at 11:58 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > I agree too. This project/community doesn't make enough progresses for > being under Apache umbrella. > > However regarding the future of the project I still work in my own fork > that can benefit Wave, so I want to > keep Wave somewhere. > > From a practical standpoint, I did recap this tasks (what else?) > > - Name for the GH organization / project? e.g. WaveCommunity or > WaveProtocol / Wave > > - Who want to be member of the new GH organization. > > - Website replacing incubator.apache.org/wave/ and the wiki... e.g. just > a > GH page/site > > - New communication channels, replacing incubator mailing lists. e.g. > slack > or another mailing list? Ask and add those who want to follow new > channels. > > Pablo > > > > > > 2017-11-27 21:53 GMT+01:00 Zachary Yaro <zmy...@gmail.com>: > > > Just so I understand, what would be the criteria for the project rejoining > > the Apache Incubator in the future? > > > > For instance, we have had several people (myself included) comment that > > they would become more frequent contributors to the project once the server > > and client were sufficiently decoupled that a JavaScript client could be > > worked on separately from the Java GWT client. Should that happen, and > > regular work on the project continue, could the project easily rejoin, or > > would there be a higher barrier to reentry? > > > > > > And on another note, if the project is retired, what happens to the > > documentation and mailing list archives from Apache, and would anything be > > done to help migrate that elsewhere? > > > > (On a related note, do we still have access to waveprotocol.org and the > > related mailing list? That would seem to be the logical place to migrate > > to.) > > > > Zachary Yaro > > > > On 27 November 2017 at 14:43, Dustin Pfannenstiel < > > dustin.pfannenst...@nth-estate.com> wrote: > > > > > I've set up a repo and organization for the code base on github. > > > https://github.com/TimaeusWave/WaveServer > > > > > > Thanks for the years of support and, well, just everything. > > > > > > DMP > > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 04:46 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > > >> The in depth "incubator required stuff" is at > > > >> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html for review > > > >> > > > >> Basically, > > > >> > > > >> - We have this conversation. Ensure that there's consensus on the > > > future > > > >> of the project. > > > >> - Call a vote. When we call a vote, one of us will send notice to > > > >> incubator. > > > >> - Vote again on general@incubator. > > > >> > > > >> I do want to make sure there are two things abundantly clear: > > > >> > > > >> - Retirement isn't failure. Wave didn't fail as a project. > > > >> - It's better to describe it as "this isn't a good fit as an Apache > > > >> project." Apache projects tend to have at least three people > > available > > > >> at all times, either making changes, merging in changes, or able to > > cut > > > >> releases. > > > > > > > > What John described above is the process from Apache's side. > > > > > > > > The code is publicly available under an Apache License. Any of you can > > > > push your local repo up to GitHub and share it with whoever you like, > > > > using a name that includes the word "Wave", so that would be a step > > > > alongside the more ASF-focussed administrative tasks above. > > > > > > > > Upayavira > > > > > > > >
Re: Resigning as mentor: what next?
Amir - email wave-dev-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org. On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 07:48 PM, Amir N. Nashat wrote: > Hello! > > Is it possible to be removed from this mailing list? I don't see an > unsubscribe link. > > Thanks > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Dustin Pfannenstiel < > dustin.pfannenst...@nth-estate.com> wrote: > > > I've set up a repo and organization for the code base on github. > > https://github.com/TimaeusWave/WaveServer > > > > Thanks for the years of support and, well, just everything. > > > > DMP > > > > > On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 04:46 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > >> The in depth "incubator required stuff" is at > > >> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html for review > > >> > > >> Basically, > > >> > > >> - We have this conversation. Ensure that there's consensus on the > > future > > >> of the project. > > >> - Call a vote. When we call a vote, one of us will send notice to > > >> incubator. > > >> - Vote again on general@incubator. > > >> > > >> I do want to make sure there are two things abundantly clear: > > >> > > >> - Retirement isn't failure. Wave didn't fail as a project. > > >> - It's better to describe it as "this isn't a good fit as an Apache > > >> project." Apache projects tend to have at least three people available > > >> at all times, either making changes, merging in changes, or able to cut > > >> releases. > > > > > > What John described above is the process from Apache's side. > > > > > > The code is publicly available under an Apache License. Any of you can > > > push your local repo up to GitHub and share it with whoever you like, > > > using a name that includes the word "Wave", so that would be a step > > > alongside the more ASF-focussed administrative tasks above. > > > > > > Upayavira > > > >
Re: Resigning as mentor: what next?
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, at 04:46 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > The in depth "incubator required stuff" is at > https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html for review > > Basically, > > - We have this conversation. Ensure that there's consensus on the future > of the project. > - Call a vote. When we call a vote, one of us will send notice to > incubator. > - Vote again on general@incubator. > > I do want to make sure there are two things abundantly clear: > > - Retirement isn't failure. Wave didn't fail as a project. > - It's better to describe it as "this isn't a good fit as an Apache > project." Apache projects tend to have at least three people available > at all times, either making changes, merging in changes, or able to cut > releases. What John described above is the process from Apache's side. The code is publicly available under an Apache License. Any of you can push your local repo up to GitHub and share it with whoever you like, using a name that includes the word "Wave", so that would be a step alongside the more ASF-focussed administrative tasks above. Upayavira
Resigning as mentor: what next?
Dear all, The time has come for me to resign as a mentor for this project. John D Ament has said he is prepared to help, but to be honest, given the recent level of (in)activity, I think the time has come for us to admit that we are not going to achieve in any reasonable time the goal of the incubator: to lead projects to graduation. I believe we have been the longest running podling in the incubator for some time now. My suggestion would be that the project migrate to GitHub where it can continue at its own pace. Should it gain sufficient momentum in the future, I am sure the ASF would welcome it back. Having checked, I do not believe the ASF would lay any claim on the name "Wave" so the project could continue to call itself "Wave" at GitHub or elsewhere. Any thoughts/objections/alternative suggestions, before I call a retirement vote? Many thanks, Upayavira
Re: Bumping to v0.5
Right, so fork a 0.4 branch so that master can head towards a 0.5 release. Sounds good. On Sat, 1 Jul 2017, at 01:40 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Well ATM we don't have a specific branch situation, so it's more about > creating a 0.4.# branch to preserve the past and allow us to fix the bugs > in that release. Because I believe we still wanted to do a release > soonish. > > On 1 Jul 2017 10:12 PM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > Presumably the time to do that would be when making a 0.5.0 release, no? > > :-) > > > > On Sat, 1 Jul 2017, at 07:41 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > > > wanting to gauge community feedback and feedback from the committers on > > > the > > > proposal of us bumping to version 0.5. I suggest we do this as I've been > > > working on "refacing" the project to look fresher and changing the > > > direction of the project to offer a generic back end server with a full > > > rest API. > > > > > > Will submit a pull request in the next few days which will have most of > > > the > > > new front face of the project started. > > > > > > ~ Evan > >
Re: Bumping to v0.5
Presumably the time to do that would be when making a 0.5.0 release, no? :-) On Sat, 1 Jul 2017, at 07:41 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Hello All, > > wanting to gauge community feedback and feedback from the committers on > the > proposal of us bumping to version 0.5. I suggest we do this as I've been > working on "refacing" the project to look fresher and changing the > direction of the project to offer a generic back end server with a full > rest API. > > Will submit a pull request in the next few days which will have most of > the > new front face of the project started. > > ~ Evan
Re: SwellRT update
Pablo, Do you see Wave's copy of SwellRT as a fork? Or perhaps as a downstream dependency of SwellRT? How do you see the SwellRT team collaborating with Wave? Upayavira On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, at 03:25 PM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > ICLAs from original copyright owners of SwellRT source code has been > signed > and sent to Apache. This implies, AFAIK that Wave community is free > (libre) > to use SwellRT's source code entirely or parts of it without risks of > raising any IP issues. This makes safer, legally speaking, any > collaboration between communities involving the source code. > > This doesn't imply any commitment from Wave taking over SwellRT source > code, roadmap...and in particular SwellRT brand, that is a separated > matter. > > How SwellRT source code can be exploited by Wave is a community choice. I > think those more technically involved in the project should address the > discussion. My email is a part of this aim. I expect your point of view > so > we can define a tech road map. > > > > > > 2017-03-20 15:04 GMT+01:00 Evan Hughes <wisebald...@apache.org>: > > > Thanks for all the info but doesn't quite answers some of the more pressing > > questions. > > > > Has swellrt been donated to the incubator as in the incubator is now where > > the official swellrt development will happen? Does this include the > > branding asset's? How do we want to handle publishing of the swellrt as a > > sub part of this project. > > > > ~ Evan > > > > On 20 Mar 2017 11:22 PM, "Pablo Ojanguren" <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > My apologies for the late update on SwellRT. I hope this email could help > > to clarify the ongoing discussion. > > > > As summary SwellRT objective is to make Wave generic... > > > > Instead of Wave Conversations it provides generic Collaborative Objects. > > Instead of a GUI it provides an API. > > > > *Current status:* > > > > *JavaScript Beta client* > > > >- Based on the original Web client. > >- No dependencies with GWT UI components. > >- No dependencies with JSNI thanks to JSInterop. > >- It allows to mutate and sync Javascript objects (ES6 Proxies). > >- This implementation is expected to ease generation of Android and iOS > >clients. > >- Basic features are in place but some others are still not migrated > >from alpha. > > > > Check out README[1] and Wiki[2] for usage details. To dive into the code, > > see package *org.swellrt.beta,* and the classes > > *ServiceFrontendEntryPoint* > > and *SObjectRemote* > > > > > > > > *Collaborative Editor Component* > > > > Task to provide the Wave text editor as a separated component, so > > eventually it could be replaced. So far, it exposes following features as > > API > > > >- Annotations > >- User presence > > > > Currently I am debugging it for mobile browsers. > > Widgets API coming soon. > > > > Package org.swellrt.beta.client.js.editor [3] > > > > *Federation with Matrix.org* > > > > Testing the proposed implementation [4] from GSoC'16 student. We would like > > to provide a PR asap. > > > > > > > > *JetPad* > > We are developing SwellRT together with a real application of it, > > jetpad.net > > [5] a collaborative text editor. > > > > > > > > *Google Sumer of Code 2017* > > We are also participating in GSoC17 thanks to the support of Universidad > > Complutense de Madrid and Berkman Klein Center (Harvard) > > Please encourage any students to send proposals, not limited to our > > suggestions [6]. Deadline is April 3. > > For example, we are considering a proposal of e2e encryption based on [7] > > > > > > > > *Wave + SwellRT* > > I guess the question to answer in the community is whether SwellRT can be > > used as is, or adapted, or part of it, to provide a new Wave UI. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Pablo > > > > > > > > [1] https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt/blob/master/README.md > > [2] https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt/wiki > > [3] > > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt/tree/master/wave/src/ > > main/java/org/swellrt/beta/client/js/editor > > [4] https://github.com/Waqee/incubator-wave/blob/master/ > > MATRIX-FEDERATION.md > > [5] https://jetpad.net/ > > [6] https://cyber.harvard.edu/gsoc/SwellRT > > [7] http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/68179/ > > paper.pdf?sequence=1 > >
Re: To-do's for graduation
This, Michael, is the crucial point. To graduate, we must have a minimum of 5 PMC members (3, plus a couple of spares). To be a PMC member, someone must already be on the PPMC, and must be prepared to participate in votes for new committers/PMC members and to assist with reviewing release candidates. Those are the primary responsibilities of a PMC member (see ASF docs for a fuller list). If we cannot get 5 people to agree to taking on that role, we might as well stop worrying about everything else. Beyond that, we need to look at any incubator checklists, e.g. ticking licensing boxes, making sure we've recorded who is on the PPMC, etc - anything that the Incubator PMC will use to understand what we are up to when making their decision as to whether to accept our proposal to become a TLP. Whether we have a Dockerfile, or have too many dependencies, etc, is, from the perspective of graduation, irrelevant. Upayavira I am not sure we can yet meet this cri On Sat, 11 Mar 2017, at 03:57 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > Hello all, > > I know there has been some email traffic on this recently, but I think we > should also prepare a little section in the wiki that talks about the > people in the project. Who would be the committers, the PMC, etc. > Essentially who are going to be the initial active participants of the > TLP. We have a lot of committers here from 4 years ago that have moved on > to other things and don’t have time to.. My understanding in general for > a TLP is that committers don’t always equal PMC; but that for a small set > of committers that may be the case. > > Regardless, I think one task is to identify who will really be part of > the TLP and in what capacity. > > I would be happing to work on this though interaction on the mailing > list. > > ~Michael > > On 3/11/17, 2:40 AM, "Pablo Ojanguren" <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > That todo list LGTM > Thanks Evan > > 2017-03-10 1:04 GMT+01:00 Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com>: > > > Hello all, > > > > I think it's time for us to make a fixed set of tasks we want done > before > > we go for graduation. > > > > To start off the list we must complete all the usual org tasks. This > > includes license checking, notice checks, crypto notice. > > > > Please respond to this with dot points of tasks you think should be on > our > > todos before grad and they will latter be compiled into our confluence > for > > the time being (maybe on website in the future). This will then > transition > > to issues and may be assigned to individuals to complete before the next > > report. > > > > Just to state clearly, anyone is able to make a suggestion, don't limit > > suggestions to small tasks that are able to be completed before the next > > Incubator report. > > > > > > Todo List: > > > > * Publish the svg of logo on website. > > * Update incubator logo to use the new one (will be released shortly). > > * Remove any unesscary dependencies in repo. > > * Vote to decide on keeping the android client or to purge the repo. > > * Make an updated binary release after all changes made. > > * Clean the repository. > > * Docker file. > > > > >
Re: Podling Report Reminder - March 2017
I've updated the page. Note we have made a release, so we are past that initial step already. We are either "community building" or "nearing graduation". Which one is something we should continue to discuss. Thanks On Tue, 28 Feb 2017, at 03:21 PM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > Hi, > > I've just added some content to the report, please add/suggest changes > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2017 > > > > 2017-02-27 16:05 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>: > > > From what I learned - release procedure can take some time. I guess we need > > to decide on what we want in the RC and then move forward. I can take on > > the release management. > > > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Ok, let's mention this situation in the report. I agree with Evan, it > > will > > > be good to set grad for the next report. > > > > > > > > > 2017-02-27 14:15 GMT+01:00 Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > If we do decide to go for grad it won't happen this round I reckon but > > we > > > > should start preparing now for the next report. > > > > > > > > On 27 Feb 2017 10:46 PM, "David Murphy" <crabby...@icloud.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Graduating may give the project greater visibility. What are the > > > > > consequences for graduating versus staying as now? If any. > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Feb 2017, at 12:27, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am wondering if we should start talking about graduation. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is holding us back? My take is just "team size", but I suspect > > > it > > > > > > will just stay that way for some time. > > > > > > > > > > > > I did an experiment a while back to see how many +1s we could get > > > from > > > > > > PPMC members - we got enough. That, really, is the base requirement > > > for > > > > > > a functioning PMC. > > > > > > > > > > > > We're not going to suddenly grow in a hurry. But it seems we're > > also > > > > not > > > > > > going to go away either. Perhaps we should just bite the bullet and > > > > > > discuss graduation? > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this question could be put into the board report somehow? > > > > > > > > > > > > Upayavira > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, at 10:04 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > > > > > >> Sure, I can handle it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Is there something anyone want to be added to the report? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> 2017-02-27 10:27 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Hi > > > > > >>> Is there anyone who wants to fill the report for March? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 5:11 AM <johndam...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Dear podling, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the > > Apache > > > > > >>>> Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of > > > time > > > > to > > > > > >>>> prepare your quarterly board report. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 15 March 2017, 10:30 am > > > PDT. > > > > > >>>> The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator > > PMC > > > > > >>>> report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 > > > > weeks > > > > > >>>> before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review > > and > > > > > >>>> submission (Wed, March 01). > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the > > > >
Re: Podling Report Reminder - March 2017
Here's what I'd suggest we do. We start a separate thread about graduation - we discuss what it would look like, and who would want to be a member of the new PMC (of those already on the PPMC). We can explore whether we actually think we are ready. If that is the case, then we would vote on it, and report that vote to the Incubator PMC, who would then have their own vote. If that passes, we would put together a resolution for the next Board meeting to create the Apache Wave PMC. This could, theoretically, happen at the next board meeting (i.e. April). In the meantime, we could say "we are wondering whether we have reached a sufficient level of stability to consider graduation, and are discussing it" in our board report. Upayavira On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, at 01:15 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > If we do decide to go for grad it won't happen this round I reckon but we > should start preparing now for the next report. > > On 27 Feb 2017 10:46 PM, "David Murphy" <crabby...@icloud.com> wrote: > > > Graduating may give the project greater visibility. What are the > > consequences for graduating versus staying as now? If any. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On 27 Feb 2017, at 12:27, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > I am wondering if we should start talking about graduation. > > > > > > What is holding us back? My take is just "team size", but I suspect it > > > will just stay that way for some time. > > > > > > I did an experiment a while back to see how many +1s we could get from > > > PPMC members - we got enough. That, really, is the base requirement for > > > a functioning PMC. > > > > > > We're not going to suddenly grow in a hurry. But it seems we're also not > > > going to go away either. Perhaps we should just bite the bullet and > > > discuss graduation? > > > > > > Perhaps this question could be put into the board report somehow? > > > > > > Upayavira > > > > > >> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, at 10:04 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > > >> Sure, I can handle it. > > >> > > >> Is there something anyone want to be added to the report? > > >> > > >> 2017-02-27 10:27 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>: > > >> > > >>> Hi > > >>> Is there anyone who wants to fill the report for March? > > >>> > > >>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 5:11 AM <johndam...@apache.org> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Dear podling, > > >>>> > > >>>> This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache > > >>>> Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to > > >>>> prepare your quarterly board report. > > >>>> > > >>>> The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 15 March 2017, 10:30 am PDT. > > >>>> The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC > > >>>> report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks > > >>>> before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and > > >>>> submission (Wed, March 01). > > >>>> > > >>>> Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the Incubator > > >>>> PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the > > >>>> very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the > > board > > >>>> meeting. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks, > > >>>> > > >>>> The Apache Incubator PMC > > >>>> > > >>>> Submitting your Report > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>> Your report should contain the following: > > >>>> > > >>>> * Your project name > > >>>> * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of > > >>>>the project or necessarily of its field > > >>>> * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move > > >>>>towards graduation. > > >>>> * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to > > be > > >>>>aware of > > >>>> * How has the community developed since the last report > > >>>> * How has the project developed since the last report. > > >>>> * How does the podling rate their own maturity. > > >>>> > > >>>> This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: > > >>>> > > >>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2017 > > >>>> > > >>>> Note: This is manually populated. You may need to wait a little before > > >>>> this page is created from a template. > > >>>> > > >>>> Mentors > > >>>> --- > > >>>> > > >>>> Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off > > on > > >>>> the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are > > >>>> following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms > > >>>> for the Incubator PMC. > > >>>> > > >>>> Incubator PMC > > >>>> > > >>> > >
Re: Podling Report Reminder - March 2017
I am wondering if we should start talking about graduation. What is holding us back? My take is just "team size", but I suspect it will just stay that way for some time. I did an experiment a while back to see how many +1s we could get from PPMC members - we got enough. That, really, is the base requirement for a functioning PMC. We're not going to suddenly grow in a hurry. But it seems we're also not going to go away either. Perhaps we should just bite the bullet and discuss graduation? Perhaps this question could be put into the board report somehow? Upayavira On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, at 10:04 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > Sure, I can handle it. > > Is there something anyone want to be added to the report? > > 2017-02-27 10:27 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>: > > > Hi > > Is there anyone who wants to fill the report for March? > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 5:11 AM <johndam...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > Dear podling, > > > > > > This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache > > > Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to > > > prepare your quarterly board report. > > > > > > The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 15 March 2017, 10:30 am PDT. > > > The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC > > > report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks > > > before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and > > > submission (Wed, March 01). > > > > > > Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the Incubator > > > PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the > > > very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board > > > meeting. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > The Apache Incubator PMC > > > > > > Submitting your Report > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Your report should contain the following: > > > > > > * Your project name > > > * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of > > > the project or necessarily of its field > > > * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move > > > towards graduation. > > > * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be > > > aware of > > > * How has the community developed since the last report > > > * How has the project developed since the last report. > > > * How does the podling rate their own maturity. > > > > > > This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: > > > > > > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2017 > > > > > > Note: This is manually populated. You may need to wait a little before > > > this page is created from a template. > > > > > > Mentors > > > --- > > > > > > Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on > > > the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are > > > following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms > > > for the Incubator PMC. > > > > > > Incubator PMC > > > > >
Re: new committer: Pablo Ojanguren
Welcome Pablo! On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, at 11:35 AM, Yuri Z wrote: > The Project Management Committee (PMC) for Apache Wave has invited Pablo > Ojanguren to become a committer and we are pleased to announce that he > has > accepted. > Pablo is an active contributor of high quality code and is active within > community. He is also one of the main SwellRT developers. > Please join me in welcoming Pablo in his new role.
Re: Wave under Let's Encrypt
I've not used lets-encrypt for Wave, but I've used it to automate the creation of a Docker Registry server. See here: https://github.com/odoko-devops/uberstack/tree/master/apps/registry Upayavira On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, at 03:13 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Gonna see if I can setup a demo server and try and use it for discussing > some things. > > On 07/12/2016 7:42 PM, "Yuri Z" <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Sounds interesting. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:40 AM Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Just curious if anyone has ran a wave server under Lets Encrypt yet? and > if > > you had any issues? > > > > ~ Evan > >
Re: Podling Report Reminder - December 2016
These are good, but let's add a spin to it - what do the Incubator PMC and the Board want to hear? Whilst it is cool/clever/whatever that we are reducing dependencies, the real question is how does this help us move towards graduation? That's what they're gonna want to hear. Points that could be made: * We have started exploring the SwellRT code and how we might absorb it * We are seeing some renewal of activity * SwellRT has reduced the complexity of the Wave codebase, so pulling it back into Wave will make it easier for new developers to engage with us. Upayavira On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, at 03:48 PM, Adam John wrote: > Excellent work, Pablo & folks. I took what both of you wrote and > combined > / formatted... with some tweaks I hope help to improve... > > * * How has the community developed since the last report?* > > The community has several new/re-activated contributors and participants > across different disciplines since last report. The most significant > developments for our community have come about since September. > > After an open community conference call on Sept 28th, a joint effort > between Wave and SwellRT development was initiated. This was started in > order to align community development efforts and has had some very > positive > results. > > An effort has started to reduce the dependencies in the source of the > main > project, with help from the SwellRT team. Mostly transitive dependencies > were updated, and work is still proceeding. > > A focus area next cycle is the removal of core dependencies which were > long > ago depreciated, this currently revolves around the UI design of the > static > content of wave. In the next report it is expected that some reworking of > the UI design will be done and integrated. > > > SwellRT API has been tried out by some members of the community and a > branch containing the SwellRT code is now in the repository. Discussions > are > still taking place to determine the full extent of the integration as the > projects share a common goal but have side plans as well. > > One notable consideration in ongoing development originates from a sister > project that provides a real time editor (gpl type license). Apache Wave > already contains an editor but has experienced some bugs this past week > (relating to chrome api changes). > > Discussion of a new editor in-house did happen a few reports ago and will > need to continue as we refine, remodel and clean house overall. > > * * How has the project developed since the last report?* > > Some members of Wave community have tried SwellRT API and some common > tasks have been performed, such as: > > >1. Cleaned up some obsolete dependencies. >2. New branch created on wave repo containing a mirror of swellrt >code. >3. Updated major dependencies and fixed minor bugs. > > > > Thanks, and talk soon! > > AJ > > Adam John > (914) 623-8433 > Google+ <https://plus.google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mradamjohn> > | Twitter <https://twitter.com/mradamjohn> | Facebook > <https://www.facebook.com/mradamjohn> > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Here is a draft for the report, please suggest (just two major > > questions)... > > > > > > *How has the community developed since the last report?* > > > > After Sept 28th concall, a joint effort between Wave and SwellRT > > communities has started in order to prove that Wave community is eager to > > replace or integrate its code base with SwellRT's one. > > > > *How has the project developed since the last report?* > > > > Some members of Wave community has been tried SwellRT API and some common > > tasks has been performed: > > > > Clean up of obsoletes dependencies. > > New branch on wave repo containing a mirror of swellrt code. > > Updated major dependencies and fixed minor bugs. > > > > > > > > > > 2016-12-05 15:39 GMT+01:00 Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com>: > > > > > hehe :D you right Evan > > > > > > About Mozilla grant I just filled out the form, and just waiting for > > their > > > answer. At least, I have been endorsed by Audrey Tang, Digital Minister > > of > > > Taiwan and famous free software developer. (https://en.wikipedia.org/ > > > wiki/Audrey_Tang) > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-12-05 14:01 GMT+01:00 Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com>: > > > > > >> but were would the mystery be :P > > >> > &
Re: SwellRT Applying to Mozilla Open Source Support
Absolutely, anyone here is welcome to join in with your efforts - more power to you all! On Tue, 29 Nov 2016, at 06:01 PM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > of course @upayavira I know Apache positioning. I didn't mean to involve > Apache directly, just to offer some help to Wave's community. > Thanks! > > > 2016-11-29 18:54 GMT+01:00 Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk>: > > > Pablo, > > > > Many people are paid to work on Apache projects, but none of them are > > paid *by Apache*. It has been a principle that goes back a long way that > > keeps things even and avoids many conflicts. > > > > You are welcome to seek funding for your project. You are welcome to > > seek funding to work on Apache Wave. As far as Apache is concerned, you > > will just be another person paid to work on an Apache codebase - Apache > > cannot give any special affirmation of your effort above those of any > > other contributor. > > > > Does that make sense? > > > > Upayavira > > > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2016, at 11:50 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > SwellRT community is going to apply for the Mozilla Open Source Support > > > grant (deadline tomorrow November 30th) > > > > > > The initial grant supporting SwellRT development has finished, so we > > > require to find out new funding oportunities like this to keep a stable > > > development effort to move SwellRT to a beta status. > > > > > > Our aim is to manage MOSS grant (or any other) through an independent > > > organization specificly related with Open Source dev. > > > > > > In this context I would like to appeal the Wave community for... > > > > > > - invite any developer from the Wave community to get paid from this > > > grant > > > to improve Wave core codebase. > > > - invite Wave community to suggest development task that could be > > > included > > > in the grant's scope that could improve Wave code base. > > > - to ask Apache representatives if they would like to handle the grant. > > > > > > Any suggestion and advice is welcome. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pablo > >
Re: SwellRT Applying to Mozilla Open Source Support
Pablo, Many people are paid to work on Apache projects, but none of them are paid *by Apache*. It has been a principle that goes back a long way that keeps things even and avoids many conflicts. You are welcome to seek funding for your project. You are welcome to seek funding to work on Apache Wave. As far as Apache is concerned, you will just be another person paid to work on an Apache codebase - Apache cannot give any special affirmation of your effort above those of any other contributor. Does that make sense? Upayavira On Tue, 29 Nov 2016, at 11:50 AM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: > Hi all, > > SwellRT community is going to apply for the Mozilla Open Source Support > grant (deadline tomorrow November 30th) > > The initial grant supporting SwellRT development has finished, so we > require to find out new funding oportunities like this to keep a stable > development effort to move SwellRT to a beta status. > > Our aim is to manage MOSS grant (or any other) through an independent > organization specificly related with Open Source dev. > > In this context I would like to appeal the Wave community for... > > - invite any developer from the Wave community to get paid from this > grant > to improve Wave core codebase. > - invite Wave community to suggest development task that could be > included > in the grant's scope that could improve Wave code base. > - to ask Apache representatives if they would like to handle the grant. > > Any suggestion and advice is welcome. > > Thanks, > > Pablo
Re: Swellrt dependencies and wave dependencies
Now's a good time for folks to start looking at this code. People who previously tried using Wave, but found it too complicated - take a look at this branch - is it easier to work with? Are there places you think you could usefully contribute? Upayavira On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, at 12:40 PM, Adam John wrote: > Thanks Yuri! > > Adam John > (914) 623-8433 > > On Nov 16, 2016 6:36 AM, "Yuri Z" <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I pushed SwellRT into Wave repo as a branch. > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:49 AM Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Thqnkyou for this, tuesday is my last exam for the year so I should be > > able > > > to start removing dependencies then. > > > > > > On 11/11/2016 8:11 PM, "Pablo Ojanguren" <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Sure Evan, cleaning up dependencies seems a good starting point. > > > Yes, SwellRT is basically the same source code than Wave so this is a > > > win-win situation. > > > > > > I am updating the following spreedsheet to track down dependences in > > order > > > to decide further actions, any contribution is welcome of course > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZekN8665BTHt_qL859HRmp7- > > > k59IkifFSZi7C0iZc3I/edit?usp=sharing > > > > > > Could some of you clone SwellRT's master into a Wave's branch? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-11-01 5:00 GMT+01:00 Evan Hughes <wisebald...@apache.org>: > > > > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > > > with the proposal of joining the sources can we begin work by filtering > > > out > > > > unused dependencies and upgrading old ones for both repos. My > > > understanding > > > > is that Swellrt uses the base of Wave so this would be beneficial for > > > both > > > > projects. > > > > > > > > If any of the swellrt peeps are here and would put their hand up for > > > > helping decided what can be removed as we have a very large collection > > of > > > > out dated dependencies. This should be the first step as currently I > > have > > > a > > > > bunch of security emails relating to our old dependencies. > > > > > > > > ~ Evan > > > > > > > > >
Re: Retirement
These are great suggestions Thomas. What I'm suggesting is that I want to avoid porting SwellRT over to Apache, only for it to fail here due to lack of activity, when it was actually fine where it was. We need to make sure, out of respect for SwellRT, that it can gain a level of traction that makes it worth the effort porting it to Apache. The suggested steps you outline below are a great part of that. Upayavira On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, at 02:55 PM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: > Any consensus then on how to move forward? > I've signed up and started looking around swellrt. Only been able to > ""debug"" the setup instructions so far, but I hope to contribute > more. > > If the agreed logic is "SwellRT needs to show more activity before it > can become the main apache branch", then I feel everyone in this list > should at least be signing onto Gitter > (https://gitter.im/P2Pvalue/swellrt) and taking a look around the > project/related projects to see if theres anything that takes their > fancy. > > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-android > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/angular-swellrt > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-pad > https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-java > > Theres probably a broad enough range that most people can contribute > something. > -- > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > On 15 October 2016 at 20:52, Bradley D. Thornton <brad...@northtech.us> > wrote: > > This is the link below that I cannot seem to locate. > > > > > > On 8/30/2016 11:25 PM, Adam John wrote: > >> > >> Created a GitHub organization, added each of the available repos: > >> https://github.com/ApacheWave > >> > >> I think I invited everyone on this thread - however there are many others > >> on the list. > >> All are welcome. > >> > >> Loss of Apache incubator status is significant as it means also > >> organizational loss, tools lost, and would effectively put a nail in the > >> coffin for the project. > >> > >> WebCMS, Jira, Jenkins, and Travis are all valuable tools, and part of > >> Incubator status. > >> > >> Quality code review (thanks, vega and wisebaldone etc) and an established > >> process for the inclusion of new contributions by people familiar with > >> existing approaches and the work in progress... all of this is > >> significant. > >> > >> The people on this list - and even the list itself - both a service and an > >> organization that would be a significant loss in any transition... > >> > >> I think the safety of the incubator is important, for these reasons and > >> more; and there needs to be improved communication, planning and > >> coordination... here again, just my opinion. > >> > >> AJ > >> > >> Adam John > >> (914) 623-8433 > >> Google+ <http://google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn <http://mradamjohn.com/> > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> The best future for Wave at Apache would, I think be to start an > >>> entirely new project at GitHub, and implement a Wave system that people > >>> can actually understand. Once that gains traction, come back to the > >>> Incubator and ask to resurrect Apache Wave with that new codebase. > >>> > >>> The current codebase seems to be simply too complex for people to be > >>> able to pick up. The idea stands as a good one, but the code is just too > >>> complex. > >>> > >>> Upayavira > >>> > >>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 09:58 PM, Taylor Fahlman wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I've been a reader of this list for a while. I am another one of the > >>>> people > >>>> who would love to contribute, but literally have no idea where to start. > >>>> I > >>>> really think that if the code was divided a bit more it'd be easier to > >>>> contribute, because I want to see this project keep going. It really > >>>> does > >>>> have a lot of potential in the current climate of silo-ed communication > >>>> systems. An easy docker image would really help too. > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> While
Re: SwellRT tech overview
I'm suggesting that before we go to the proposal phase, people just start participating in SwellRT. Just do it. Let's see what you can all accomplish over there - let SwellRT see what they have to gain, and let Apache see how more vibrant and active SwellRT is as a community. Then it will be a no-brainer for Apache to accept SwellRT. Upayavira On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, at 10:10 PM, Adam John wrote: > Sorry to have missed you, Thomas. > > "Cant a date be set, a vote be taken, then either import SwellRT or not?" > According to Upayavira there should be a proposal. > > This is what I've found: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html > Although this seems more targeted to new projects. > > So the process would be: > (1) Create a proposal > (2) Submit it to the group via email > (3) Vote > > I've created this working document > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jhPRR9juJAhBBZ9qjYI5KxlaHSz-IJJdPQ6_3puwWBQ/edit?usp=sharing> > to get us started - but not sure if the template at the link above is > suitable. > > Talk soon! > > AJ > > Adam John > (914) 623-8433 > Google+ <http://google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn > <http://mradamjohn.com/> > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I am sorry I didn't make the meeting, glade to see it was productive. > > However, I am curious though why there is questions still as to if > > SwellRT should be merged with wave. > > > > Wave development at apache is nearly dead. > > Doing nothing and it will have to retire. No one has proposed a 3rd > > option that I am aware of. > > So in terms of community engagement, not seeing a downside. > > > > If theres technical downsides, thats another mater. But not aware > > anyones raised any yet. > > From what I have seen possibly my only concern is the API to > > communicate to the server is just in javascript - we would > > eventually need alternatives if we want to allow native iOS and > > Android clients. > > > > > > "activity similar to this starts brewing and > > then it all dies down in a few months" > > > > > > True. Seen it many times. > > Maybe too much discussion with too little actual discussions resulting > > in anything changing. > > Cant a date be set, a vote be taken, then either import SwellRT or not? > > > > > > > > -- > > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > > > > On 6 October 2016 at 18:21, Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Thanks Adam for clarifying the questions. > > > > > > Also I agree with Upayavira, the primary discussion it might be more > > about > > > "ideas" and the community's "engagement" with them. After that, tech > > > aspects would come. > > > > > > So, in this regard I would like to share some thoughts about SwellRT as a > > > product... > > > > > > a) Where SwellRT fit in the market? Competitors? > > > > > > SwellRT current vision is closer to products like Firebase, Meteor and > > > Realm. > > > They are new breed of frameworks/platforms to write apps. They provide as > > > key feature, real-time data storage with simple document-based data > > models. > > > Their aim is to simplify and speed up web/app development. And of course, > > > they allow to build real-time collaboration features easily. > > > > > > Of course, these projects are matured, but they still have pros and cons. > > > What it seems clear to me is the trend: to develop heavier apps/webapps > > > (because nowadays devices have a lot of computing power and it means just > > > coding for one system) and lighter backends providing common "services" > > > (notifications, storage, auth...). > > > > > > > > > > > > b) What Wave/SwellRT's tech could offer in this market as innovation? > > > Wave/SwellRT could compete with features like: > > > > > > - Open Source and JVM world: I guess there is still a part of the world > > > happy to see a Java friendly framework, despite it works for Web (but > > > hopefully for android/iOS). > > > > > > - Simpler API: with sugar syntax, for example, in SwellRT we are working > > in > > > a JS syntax just based in mutable objects. Also with API concepts easy to > > > understand: objects and participants. > > > > > > - Ful
Re: SwellRT tech overview
My concern is not for Wave, it is for SwellRT. The last thing I'd want is them (I don't know how many of them there are) to move over to Apache, only to find out that the match with Apache isn't sufficient, and Wave closes down anyway. I want to be sure we can avoid that eventuality, and the best way I can see to accomplish that, assuming Pablo is okay with it, is for anyone interested in SwellRT development moving to Apache, is to go and join the SwellRT community. Go start contributing to the code where it is now. Then we can form a realistic view of what we are going to bring into Apache before we do it. Upayavira On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, at 10:00 PM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: > I am sorry I didn't make the meeting, glade to see it was productive. > However, I am curious though why there is questions still as to if > SwellRT should be merged with wave. > > Wave development at apache is nearly dead. > Doing nothing and it will have to retire. No one has proposed a 3rd > option that I am aware of. > So in terms of community engagement, not seeing a downside. > > If theres technical downsides, thats another mater. But not aware > anyones raised any yet. > From what I have seen possibly my only concern is the API to > communicate to the server is just in javascript - we would > eventually need alternatives if we want to allow native iOS and > Android clients. > > > "activity similar to this starts brewing and > then it all dies down in a few months" > > > True. Seen it many times. > Maybe too much discussion with too little actual discussions resulting > in anything changing. > Cant a date be set, a vote be taken, then either import SwellRT or not? > > > > -- > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > On 6 October 2016 at 18:21, Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks Adam for clarifying the questions. > > > > Also I agree with Upayavira, the primary discussion it might be more about > > "ideas" and the community's "engagement" with them. After that, tech > > aspects would come. > > > > So, in this regard I would like to share some thoughts about SwellRT as a > > product... > > > > a) Where SwellRT fit in the market? Competitors? > > > > SwellRT current vision is closer to products like Firebase, Meteor and > > Realm. > > They are new breed of frameworks/platforms to write apps. They provide as > > key feature, real-time data storage with simple document-based data models. > > Their aim is to simplify and speed up web/app development. And of course, > > they allow to build real-time collaboration features easily. > > > > Of course, these projects are matured, but they still have pros and cons. > > What it seems clear to me is the trend: to develop heavier apps/webapps > > (because nowadays devices have a lot of computing power and it means just > > coding for one system) and lighter backends providing common "services" > > (notifications, storage, auth...). > > > > > > > > b) What Wave/SwellRT's tech could offer in this market as innovation? > > Wave/SwellRT could compete with features like: > > > > - Open Source and JVM world: I guess there is still a part of the world > > happy to see a Java friendly framework, despite it works for Web (but > > hopefully for android/iOS). > > > > - Simpler API: with sugar syntax, for example, in SwellRT we are working in > > a JS syntax just based in mutable objects. Also with API concepts easy to > > understand: objects and participants. > > > > - Full-featured collaborative writing: Wave was designed for text editing, > > whereas these new frameworks are focused in JSON. For example, annotations > > is a cool feature not easy to provide I guess. Also the Wave's text editor > > is very good yet. > > > > - Federation: it is the hardest selling point for developers in general > > because it doesn't provide benefits in the short term. However, it is the > > entrance to innovative things like cross-app interoperability, organic > > scalability... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-10-05 23:47 GMT+02:00 Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk>: > > > >> I want to see a proposal regarding importing SwellRT that gives me > >> confidence that bringing SwellRT into Wave will actually lead to an > >> active project. > >> > >> A way this could be achieved *before* bringing SwellRT would b
Re: SwellRT tech overview
I want to see a proposal regarding importing SwellRT that gives me confidence that bringing SwellRT into Wave will actually lead to an active project. A way this could be achieved *before* bringing SwellRT would be if everyone who is interested in contributing headed over to SwellRT, and started contributing over there. Then, we'd be bringing both code and community into Apache, which would give me far more confidence than just importing code but with no confidence that anyone is actually going to do anything with it. Upayavira On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, at 10:03 PM, Adam John wrote: > Pablo, a lot of great information in this slide deck. I hope others have > a > chance to review as well. Outstanding work. > > Price, very thoughtful responses. I agree with the overall conclusion - > SwellRT should be brought into Wave. > > I like the idea of moving the SwellRT fork in to replace the current > branch > of Wave development because it moves the project reasonably forward and > makes sense overall. It does not seem anything current would be lost in > that move. It seems like we have everything to gain. However, there > might > be work in progress that is affected. > > It would be great if contributors on the project took a look and shared > some thoughts. > > Q3) For current contributors; are you in favor of bringing the fork home? > > - > Great attendance at our last meeting, and familiar ground was covered. > (agenda > and notes > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/11j_WQGYAtDlN8Wqx8jJglPpw6tJznvMGfdLOvQu96i0/edit>) > We're largely covering the next steps in recent emails. > > If the group agrees, that we should bring SwellRT into Apache Wave, then > there needs to be a proposal drafted. > > Q4) Does anyone have interest, experience or desire to help with this > task? We do not expect to start until after the next meeting. > > - > Perhaps 2-3 weeks is time enough to consider the questions posed? > I'd like to plan our next steps; > I suggest *10/26 as the next discussion* - based on consensus in the list > of course. > > The goal of the next meeting will be to provide a chance to address any > questions regarding bringing the projects together. Perhaps this could > be > a technically deeper discussion. > > Q5) Does anyone have interest in a standing co-work session? Especially > important would be current contributors. I think this could be a good > way > for some on the list that have stalled or reached impasse to begin to > make > progress in helping out. > > Thanks, everyone for your work and efforts. I believe that if each of us > does just a little bit over the next few weeks we will continue to see > the > progress we need in this project. > > Adam John > (914) 623-8433 > Google+ <http://google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn > <http://mradamjohn.com/> > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Pablo Ojanguren <pablo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Thanks for your answer Price, > > > > I guess we should not delay this discussion... > > > > I'd happy to run another call if you think it can move things forward. > > > > > > > > 2016-10-01 18:40 GMT+02:00 Price Clark <gpwcl...@gmail.com>: > > > > > Pablo, thanks for the presentation. > > > > > > While my qualifications to answer this are 0 getting to listen to > > > Upayavira talk this week (the last Apache mentor if I'm not mistaken) > > make > > > me feel the answers to 1 and 2 are easy to answer. > > > > > > 1.) Upayavira communicated very fervently that there just isn't enough > > > oomph in wave's development. Every year around the time that the > > retirement > > > conversation is brought up, activity similar to this starts brewing and > > > then it all dies down in a few months. From this perspective "Does > > SwellRT > > > tackle current Wave problems?" The answer is unequivocally yes, SwellRT > > is > > > a more actively maintained fork of Wave and given the slowing/slowed pace > > > of Wave *a merge with SwellRT is likely the only way to save this > > project*. > > > > > > 2.) I would also like to bring up another point Upayavira made, > > > "Communities are built around good ideas and bad code." Running with > > that I > > > thing that good ideas attract tinkerers and 'people with ideas' that > > could > > > eventually become 'contributors with ideas'. In some senses SwellRT > > > splinters Apache Wave in a way that developers on this mailing list have > > > been alluding to for a while. The client side code is not wel
Re: Retirement
Adam, Whilst I appreciate that you are trying to help with the ApacheWave repos, I really don't want us to go that way. Wave is already available on Github as https://github.com/apache/incubator-wave. If this project folds, and the code goes to live on on github, it must be called something other than *apache* wave, as to call it Apache XYZ would be a misuse of a trademark. Let's decide whether or not the project continues here, and if it doesn't, then we'll discuss what happens with the various parts of the project once that decision is made. I still think that the best course of action is for a few people to get together and produce an entirely new Wave codebase. We've tried, and failed with the codebase we have. Upayavira On Wed, 31 Aug 2016, at 08:25 AM, Adam John wrote: > Created a GitHub organization, added each of the available repos: > https://github.com/ApacheWave > > I think I invited everyone on this thread - however there are many others > on the list. > All are welcome. > > Loss of Apache incubator status is significant as it means also > organizational loss, tools lost, and would effectively put a nail in the > coffin for the project. > > WebCMS, Jira, Jenkins, and Travis are all valuable tools, and part of > Incubator status. > > Quality code review (thanks, vega and wisebaldone etc) and an established > process for the inclusion of new contributions by people familiar with > existing approaches and the work in progress... all of this is > significant. > > The people on this list - and even the list itself - both a service and > an > organization that would be a significant loss in any transition... > > I think the safety of the incubator is important, for these reasons and > more; and there needs to be improved communication, planning and > coordination... here again, just my opinion. > > AJ > > Adam John > (914) 623-8433 > Google+ <http://google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn > <http://mradamjohn.com/> > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > The best future for Wave at Apache would, I think be to start an > > entirely new project at GitHub, and implement a Wave system that people > > can actually understand. Once that gains traction, come back to the > > Incubator and ask to resurrect Apache Wave with that new codebase. > > > > The current codebase seems to be simply too complex for people to be > > able to pick up. The idea stands as a good one, but the code is just too > > complex. > > > > Upayavira > > > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 09:58 PM, Taylor Fahlman wrote: > > > I've been a reader of this list for a while. I am another one of the > > > people > > > who would love to contribute, but literally have no idea where to start. > > > I > > > really think that if the code was divided a bit more it'd be easier to > > > contribute, because I want to see this project keep going. It really does > > > have a lot of potential in the current climate of silo-ed communication > > > systems. An easy docker image would really help too. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > While the code will always be there in some form, is there any real > > > > hope outside of Apache though? will it not just fizzle out? > > > > Apache provides somewhat needed pressure, structure and to some extent > > > > even prestige. > > > > > > > > While retirement is understandable necessity for things without > > > > progress, its nevertheless sad for a project with such potential. Is > > > > it possible to put a call out for developers? a last warning? a > > > > advert? something beyond this list? > > > > I have no idea what form it would take though. I am so ignorant with > > > > big projects, both socially and structurally. Theres tools out there > > > > supposed to help motivate and organised (www.teamily.com) dont know > > > > how effectively they are though. > > > > > > > > It just all seems such a waste for wave to die, its death marking a > > > > little lost hope for the open web to recover some ground from the > > > > closed hubs that dominate today. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > > > > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 August 2016 at 21:41, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > &g
Re: Retirement
The best future for Wave at Apache would, I think be to start an entirely new project at GitHub, and implement a Wave system that people can actually understand. Once that gains traction, come back to the Incubator and ask to resurrect Apache Wave with that new codebase. The current codebase seems to be simply too complex for people to be able to pick up. The idea stands as a good one, but the code is just too complex. Upayavira On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 09:58 PM, Taylor Fahlman wrote: > I've been a reader of this list for a while. I am another one of the > people > who would love to contribute, but literally have no idea where to start. > I > really think that if the code was divided a bit more it'd be easier to > contribute, because I want to see this project keep going. It really does > have a lot of potential in the current climate of silo-ed communication > systems. An easy docker image would really help too. > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > While the code will always be there in some form, is there any real > > hope outside of Apache though? will it not just fizzle out? > > Apache provides somewhat needed pressure, structure and to some extent > > even prestige. > > > > While retirement is understandable necessity for things without > > progress, its nevertheless sad for a project with such potential. Is > > it possible to put a call out for developers? a last warning? a > > advert? something beyond this list? > > I have no idea what form it would take though. I am so ignorant with > > big projects, both socially and structurally. Theres tools out there > > supposed to help motivate and organised (www.teamily.com) dont know > > how effectively they are though. > > > > It just all seems such a waste for wave to die, its death marking a > > little lost hope for the open web to recover some ground from the > > closed hubs that dominate today. > > > > -- > > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > > > > On 30 August 2016 at 21:41, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > > > As I said earlier in this thread, retirement means the closure of an > > > "apache" community. The code is already open source. So long as the > > > trademark and the Apache License V2 on the code are respected, as now, > > > anyone is free to do what they like with the code. > > > > > > Thus, if someone (or someones) wanted to move it to Github, that'd be > > > fine. I'm sure Apache wouldn't object to them using the name "Wave" in > > > some form. > > > > > > Upayavira > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 08:54 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > > >> Yuri, > > >> > > >> Being a mostly silent participant at this point. I would tend to agree > > >> with you. I think however, we should provide a “what next” option. So > > >> for example, people might be more willing to retire the project if they > > >> knew for example we could move to github and still allow people to > > >> contribute and develop if they see fit. > > >> > > >> ~Michael > > >> > > >> On 8/30/16, 11:52 AM, "Yuri Z" <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> After some thought I hate to agree, that at current levels of > > >> participation > > >> the only rational choice is to decide to retire as we are just > > >> wasting > > >> Apache Foundation resources without any real hope of graduating. > > >> Moreover, there were a few active projects based on Apache Wave that > > >> felt > > >> little motivation to contribute back actively. I think this is > > >> because they > > >> found little need in Apache Foundation resources, while contributing > > >> back > > >> required certain effort to comply with Apache rules. > > >> > > >> I think we should hold a retirement vote and either recruit > > >> sufficient > > >> number of supporters willing and able actively participate > > >> immediately, or > > >> retire. > > >> > > >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:13 PM Jonathan Leong <jon.le...@gmail.com > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > I would hate to see this pr
Re: Retirement
Michael, As I said earlier in this thread, retirement means the closure of an "apache" community. The code is already open source. So long as the trademark and the Apache License V2 on the code are respected, as now, anyone is free to do what they like with the code. Thus, if someone (or someones) wanted to move it to Github, that'd be fine. I'm sure Apache wouldn't object to them using the name "Wave" in some form. Upayavira On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 08:54 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > Yuri, > > Being a mostly silent participant at this point. I would tend to agree > with you. I think however, we should provide a “what next” option. So > for example, people might be more willing to retire the project if they > knew for example we could move to github and still allow people to > contribute and develop if they see fit. > > ~Michael > > On 8/30/16, 11:52 AM, "Yuri Z" <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > After some thought I hate to agree, that at current levels of > participation > the only rational choice is to decide to retire as we are just > wasting > Apache Foundation resources without any real hope of graduating. > Moreover, there were a few active projects based on Apache Wave that > felt > little motivation to contribute back actively. I think this is > because they > found little need in Apache Foundation resources, while contributing > back > required certain effort to comply with Apache rules. > > I think we should hold a retirement vote and either recruit > sufficient > number of supporters willing and able actively participate > immediately, or > retire. > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:13 PM Jonathan Leong <jon.le...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I would hate to see this project retire. > > > > Adam you bring up good points. I can get the ball rolling with the > Docker > > image. I'll see what I can get done over the next week or so. > > > > > > -Jonathan Leong > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Adam John <a...@sterlingsolved.com> > wrote: > > > > > I have to weigh in and say that I agree that the bar here was set high > > from > > > several perspectives. > > > > > > I'm currently evaluating what components of this project can be most > > useful > > > for incorporation into 2 separate projects. If either one moves > forward > > in > > > the next 6 months, there will be more developers actively involved > here. > > > > > > That said, I've watched some of the transition videos from Google > folks > > and > > > read a lot of the docs, reviewed code and worked on implementing this > > > project for myself. It is daunting and would benefit overall from 2 > > > significant - imho critical - updates; > > > (1) the Product itself needs real changes - like the concept of bots > > needs > > > pulled out from core terminology and revamped as a more current common > > > concept / ie agents. There needs to be better organization of the > > Product > > > from concept to contribution. This is not to diminish the vast > resources > > > present, only to highlight an improvement area. > > > (2) the Architecture needs serious review and revision to figure out > how > > > best to leverage other projects and allow focus on the specific > benefits > > > this project enables. The technology stack overall needs better > > separation > > > at least from a newcomers perspective. > > > As a third factor, and #1 on my list for adoption is rolling docker > > images > > > for the project. This is essential in my humble opinion to allow new > > > developers to focus on the pieces they feel most equipped to > contribute > > > comfortably... > > > > > > I don't know how the major changes I am suggesting get introduced and > > > discussed in much more detail. I'm hoping that perhaps I lieue of a > > > potentially dismissive email "vote" ... Maybe a virtual conference > would > > be > > > of interest? I would hope that the participants of such a convention > > would > > > be the core of a nascent rebirth. Yes I am volunteering to help take > > this > > > on if there is interest... > > > > &g
Re: Retirement
I'd say we are EXTREMELY close to a vote for retirement. If either of you wish to become active contributors, I'd say "just start doing it". Don't wait for any "permission" or such. If we could get sufficient review of your work to include it in the codebase, then maybe there could be hope for the project at Apache. But there is very little resource available here for reviewing your work, so we must also be realistic. Upayavira On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 05:05 PM, Greg Cochard wrote: > I am also a cheerleader of the project and given some more time I'm sure > I > could become a contributor to the codebase. I have experience with > Android, > GWT, frontend and backend JavaScript, Python, etc. > > I also have ops and test automation experience so I am able to help with > some of the less-loved aspects of the project lifecycle. > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 7:56 AM Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Once again, a small reminder; gwt+android developer willing to work > > client side and dedicate time to it whenever/if there ever is > > separation of client and server. > > I dont hold out much hope though. Many times separation has come up > > over the last 4(?) years, and despite consensus of it being a good > > idea it seems to much work for the precious few that know the code > > in/out to take on. Chicken and eggsort of. > > > > I still massively cheerleading wave as its still a unique project. > > There is no "myriad competitors" - useful bits and pieces here and > > there,sure, but no one else even aspires to federation one day. Closed > > bespoke systems tied to single servers are still dominating. In terms > > of successful federation the web has email/smtp, it has irc > > and...umm...not much else. > > > > -- > > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator. > > > > > > On 30 August 2016 at 16:25, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Aug 2016, at 06:16 AM, Bradley D. Thornton wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> On 8/23/2016 7:05 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > > >> > Hello all, > > >> > > > >> > Its that time of year again. Its nearing a year since retirement of > > the > > >> > project was brought up and it may be a good time to review the current > > >> > situation. > > >> > > >> Well, not withstanding all the myriad competitors to this technology, > > >> there are still operational sites linked to and functional from the > > >> pages of this forum, and it appears that some development continues to > > >> take place as well. > > >> > > >> Not to mention the fact that support for Wave is still needed, this list > > >> providing that service (to some degree). > > >> > > >> So I think that although it may in fact be a stalled project, with very > > >> little forward momentum or development, it is actually still quite > > >> viable, and relevant, some commercial interests have also really done a > > >> very nice, if not fully with a complete UI, job of deploying a unique > > >> and good looking implementation. > > > > > > Bradley, > > > > > > The Apache Incubator is not necessarily going to be concerned with how > > > useful or how used a technology is. The real question is whether the > > > project is moving towards graduation from the incubator. The most > > > noticeable aspect of this is the fact that we are *very* low on > > > developers. The absolute minimum required by Apache would be three > > > -people who know the code and would be willing to review a release and > > > confirm that it both works, and meets the licensing rules specified by > > > Apache. > > > > > > Unfortunately, the Wave project, despite all of its promise, does not > > > appear to have managed to achieve that level of activity - despite > > > numerous attempts to do so. > > > > > > If we do not hear anything convincing on this thread, I will, soon, > > > start a vote of retirement. If there is insufficient response, that may, > > > by itself, be sufficient for the Incubator PMC (project management > > > committee) to retire the project. > > > > > > Note on retirement: This means that the community disolves as an > > > *Apache* community. Whilst Apache retains rights to the name "Apache > > > Wave", I cannot imagine anyone objecting to a "Wave" project being set > > > up, e.g. on Github. So long as the terms of the Apache License V2 are > > > honoured, it is quite acceptable for the project to continue elsewhere, > > > where there is no particular expectation of activity level. > > > > > > Upayavira > >
Re: Retirement
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016, at 06:16 AM, Bradley D. Thornton wrote: > > > On 8/23/2016 7:05 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Its that time of year again. Its nearing a year since retirement of the > > project was brought up and it may be a good time to review the current > > situation. > > Well, not withstanding all the myriad competitors to this technology, > there are still operational sites linked to and functional from the > pages of this forum, and it appears that some development continues to > take place as well. > > Not to mention the fact that support for Wave is still needed, this list > providing that service (to some degree). > > So I think that although it may in fact be a stalled project, with very > little forward momentum or development, it is actually still quite > viable, and relevant, some commercial interests have also really done a > very nice, if not fully with a complete UI, job of deploying a unique > and good looking implementation. Bradley, The Apache Incubator is not necessarily going to be concerned with how useful or how used a technology is. The real question is whether the project is moving towards graduation from the incubator. The most noticeable aspect of this is the fact that we are *very* low on developers. The absolute minimum required by Apache would be three -people who know the code and would be willing to review a release and confirm that it both works, and meets the licensing rules specified by Apache. Unfortunately, the Wave project, despite all of its promise, does not appear to have managed to achieve that level of activity - despite numerous attempts to do so. If we do not hear anything convincing on this thread, I will, soon, start a vote of retirement. If there is insufficient response, that may, by itself, be sufficient for the Incubator PMC (project management committee) to retire the project. Note on retirement: This means that the community disolves as an *Apache* community. Whilst Apache retains rights to the name "Apache Wave", I cannot imagine anyone objecting to a "Wave" project being set up, e.g. on Github. So long as the terms of the Apache License V2 are honoured, it is quite acceptable for the project to continue elsewhere, where there is no particular expectation of activity level. Upayavira
Re: Wavy Future - Project Brief
Not quite a timeline. There can never be a timeline with an open source project, because no-one can be held to that timeline. I'm more saying, break it down into small enough tasks to create things that are objectively useful of themselves in manageable amounts of time. That way, we'll draw in developers who want to use those bits, and are interested in adding more. Open source development does not work the same as commercial development, as the motivations are entirely different. My boss can tell me I must write something I really don't want to, but it doesn't work that way in open source - the project has no power to make me do anything at all, in which case, timescales are pretty useless. Upayavira On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, at 10:37 PM, Gaurav Shukla wrote: > I second Upayavira on this, the project brief looks fine but it should be > broken down into meaningful sub tasks with a proper timeline. > > > > > > > Sent with MailTrack > <https://mailtrack.io/install?source=signature=en=gshukl...@gmail.com=22> > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, at 07:08 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > > > This is a project brief that some new interested developers asked for, > > > please note that* this is for the Apache Wave rewrite *project "A Wavy > > > Future" due to the potential of the rewrite not being the main source and > > > not for the current source which exists in the repo. > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Project+Brief > > > > > > Please feel free to give feedback either here or on the document if you > > > have an account. Also note that some sections of the document are > > > unfinished like the timeline. > > > > Evan, > > > > You are presenting something pretty monolithic - it could be hard to get > > a group of developers to work together on such a large endeavour. > > > > Can you break it down into smaller pieces, each of which are useful in > > themselves? If you can present something like, "here is an OT engine > > that can be used by any project, and will take 1mth to develop", then > > you have something distinctly useful, and something that is much more > > likely to draw in new developers, because the project HAS something they > > can immediately use. > > > > The best way to develop open source is to tap into developer's sense of > > their own self-interest. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Upayavira > > > > > > -- > Regards ! > Gaurav Shukla > gauravshukla.xyz
Re: Wavy Future - Project Brief
On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, at 07:08 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Hello all, > > This is a project brief that some new interested developers asked for, > please note that* this is for the Apache Wave rewrite *project "A Wavy > Future" due to the potential of the rewrite not being the main source and > not for the current source which exists in the repo. > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Project+Brief > > Please feel free to give feedback either here or on the document if you > have an account. Also note that some sections of the document are > unfinished like the timeline. Evan, You are presenting something pretty monolithic - it could be hard to get a group of developers to work together on such a large endeavour. Can you break it down into smaller pieces, each of which are useful in themselves? If you can present something like, "here is an OT engine that can be used by any project, and will take 1mth to develop", then you have something distinctly useful, and something that is much more likely to draw in new developers, because the project HAS something they can immediately use. The best way to develop open source is to tap into developer's sense of their own self-interest. Thoughts? Upayavira
Re: A Wavy Future
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, at 01:32 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Hell all, > > please see the attached document for my own personal vision for the > future > of wave, > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YnhcupFtReZyq5Y5QheIbYFO2epEhXGucNZE04r_oA4/edit?usp=sharing > > > Happy to receive any thoughts on any of the changes. My suggestion: find your own backwater in Git (a separate branch?) and start working on it. It will be much easier for people to contemplate real code than a (relatively) abstract idea. The project is under no obligation to use this code, but I guess you'll hope they love it enough to take it on. Upayavira
Re: Review Request 41700: vagrant file for apache wave
I use VirtualBox every day. I think you're right, you need to find a V4 download, but they are out there, look for "previous versions". On Thu, Dec 24, 2015, at 07:09 PM, Yuri Z wrote: > It looks like vagrant doesn't support virtual box versions that can work > on > my mac. I ll try later on my windows laptop. > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 8:58 PM Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Yeah, I have vagrant and virtual box - but still got some issues. I am > > working to fix them. Meanwhile - can someone review this patch? > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 6:54 PM Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> Install both VirtualBox and Vagrant on your mac, then do vagrant up > >> > >> The ubuntu/fedora etc refers (i presume) the guest OS rather than the > >> host os which is in your case MacOS. > >> > >> Upayavira > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2015, at 03:37 PM, Yuri Zelikov wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Dec. 24, 2015, 3:18 p.m., Yuri Zelikov wrote: > >> > > > I have little experience with vagrant - but I guess this setup > >> won't work with OSX - right? > >> > > > >> > > Andreas Kotes wrote: > >> > > it should, on any platform supporting VirtualBox - there should > >> > > be a brew package for vagrant itself > >> > > >> > From what I see - there are setups for ubuntu, fedora and win10. I tried > >> > to "vagrant up" on mac anyway - didn't work. > >> > > >> > > >> > - Yuri > >> > > >> > > >> > --- > >> > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > >> > https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/#review111860 > >> > --- > >> > > >> > > >> > On Dec. 24, 2015, 4:19 a.m., Evan Hughes wrote: > >> > > > >> > > --- > >> > > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > >> > > https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/ > >> > > --- > >> > > > >> > > (Updated Dec. 24, 2015, 4:19 a.m.) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Review request for wave, Ali Lown and Yuri Zelikov. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Repository: wave > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Description > >> > > --- > >> > > > >> > > Adds vagrant config for linux and windows vm's > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Diffs > >> > > - > >> > > > >> > > .gitignore b8ef753 > >> > > README.md 3be1780 > >> > > Vagrantfile PRE-CREATION > >> > > release/artifact-sign.sh 004d5f0 > >> > > scripts/release/artifact-sign.sh PRE-CREATION > >> > > scripts/vagrant/application.conf PRE-CREATION > >> > > scripts/vagrant/setup-fedora.sh PRE-CREATION > >> > > scripts/vagrant/setup-ubuntu.sh PRE-CREATION > >> > > scripts/vagrant/setup-win-choco.cmd PRE-CREATION > >> > > scripts/vagrant/setup-win.cmd PRE-CREATION > >> > > wave/build.gradle ca39a6d > >> > > > >> > > Diff: https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/diff/ > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Testing > >> > > --- > >> > > > >> > > Can run server in all vm's (fedora, ubuntu, win 10) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > > >> > > Evan Hughes > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >
Re: Review Request 41700: vagrant file for apache wave
Install both VirtualBox and Vagrant on your mac, then do vagrant up The ubuntu/fedora etc refers (i presume) the guest OS rather than the host os which is in your case MacOS. Upayavira On Thu, Dec 24, 2015, at 03:37 PM, Yuri Zelikov wrote: > > > > On Dec. 24, 2015, 3:18 p.m., Yuri Zelikov wrote: > > > I have little experience with vagrant - but I guess this setup won't work > > > with OSX - right? > > > > Andreas Kotes wrote: > > it should, on any platform supporting VirtualBox - there should > > be a brew package for vagrant itself > > From what I see - there are setups for ubuntu, fedora and win10. I tried > to "vagrant up" on mac anyway - didn't work. > > > - Yuri > > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/#review111860 > --- > > > On Dec. 24, 2015, 4:19 a.m., Evan Hughes wrote: > > > > --- > > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > > https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/ > > --- > > > > (Updated Dec. 24, 2015, 4:19 a.m.) > > > > > > Review request for wave, Ali Lown and Yuri Zelikov. > > > > > > Repository: wave > > > > > > Description > > --- > > > > Adds vagrant config for linux and windows vm's > > > > > > Diffs > > - > > > > .gitignore b8ef753 > > README.md 3be1780 > > Vagrantfile PRE-CREATION > > release/artifact-sign.sh 004d5f0 > > scripts/release/artifact-sign.sh PRE-CREATION > > scripts/vagrant/application.conf PRE-CREATION > > scripts/vagrant/setup-fedora.sh PRE-CREATION > > scripts/vagrant/setup-ubuntu.sh PRE-CREATION > > scripts/vagrant/setup-win-choco.cmd PRE-CREATION > > scripts/vagrant/setup-win.cmd PRE-CREATION > > wave/build.gradle ca39a6d > > > > Diff: https://reviews.apache.org/r/41700/diff/ > > > > > > Testing > > --- > > > > Can run server in all vm's (fedora, ubuntu, win 10) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Evan Hughes > > > > >
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Someone needs to just agitate on general@incubator to find a volunteer or two to review our release. Once it has received three +1 votes from Incubator PMC members, it will be an official incubator release and we are done with that task. Upayavira On Wed, Dec 23, 2015, at 02:23 PM, Yuri Z wrote: > @Ali @Upayavira > Is the release still stuck? > Are there any issues can be addressed to finalize the release? > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:01 PM Michael MacFadden < > michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Ok, > > > > I am revising the legal perspective today. > > > > > > > > > > On 10/20/15, 6:40 PM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > >As far as I'm concerned, you can still vote on the existing thread. > > >Please vote from a legal perspective rather than a technical one. > > > > > >The timeframe is set to ensure people have the ability to vote - it > > >isn't a requirement that it completes within a specific timeframe. > > > > > >thx. > > > > > >Upayavira > > > > > >On Mon, Oct 19, 2015, at 09:39 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > > >> All, > > >> > > >> I still find the Wave project quite interesting and am more than happy > > to > > >> help. I just haven’t really felt the pull of the community. If I > > >> thought there we something specific I could do to help I would be more > > >> than happy. I would like to see the release finally happen. Even if we > > >> eventually move away it would be nice to have completed this process > > once > > >> during the life of the project. > > >> > > >> If there is another vote I will participate. I will review the process > > >> and functional status and provide a vote. > > >> > > >> So you can count me in. > > >> > > >> ~Michael > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 10/18/15, 4:56 AM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > >> > > >> >Non-binding votes have a different value. If we had insufficient > > >> >committer/PPMC votes but loads of quality (I.e not drive by) > > non-binding > > >> >votes, it would suggest we have a different problem, and could look how > > >> >to addresss that. > > >> > > > >> >Upayavira > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Oct 17, 2015, at 09:33 PM, Zachary Yaro wrote: > > >> >> I would have cast a vote, but I read non-binding votes were > > discouraged. > > >> >> To clarify, what are the criteria for being able to cast a binding > > vote > > >> >> for > > >> >> this project? > > >> >> > > >> >> Zachary Yaro > > >> >> > > >> >> On 17 October 2015 at 21:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > > >> >> > and truly passed. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to > > put > > >> >> > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > > >> >> > failing to meet my own deadline). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > The result looks something like (including mine): > > >> >> > +1: 3 (2 binding) > > >> >> > +0: 0 > > >> >> > -0: 0 > > >> >> > -1: 0 > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > > >> >> > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > > >> >> > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from > > Apache, as > > >> >> > this vote does seem to suggest that there is not enough interest > > from > > >> >> > the currently defined committers to maintain this project here. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I am not re
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10 / due reports
Andreas, Currently, regarding this release, we are not aware of any legal issues with the release candidate. Because it is our first, it needs to be vetted by the Incubator PMC (project management committee). The Incubator PMC is a large and diverse group, and it can sometimes be hard to get people to look at the release. Someone (anyone) can repeatedly and respectfully ask on the general@incubator list for reviews and votes on the wave release. Either those reviews identify stuff for us to look at, or they recognise that the release is clear. In terms of incubation, there is no technical requirement in order to graduate. Graduation requirements are entirely legal and community based. If we succeed in this release then the legal stuff is covered - we now need to strengthen and develop our community to a point where it is considered sustainable. The minimal level of sustainability for a community could be seen as three active developers. And also to show that the community has learned how to collaborate in accordance with what is loosely described as "the Apache Way". Upayavira On Wed, Dec 23, 2015, at 02:25 PM, Andreas Kotes wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 02:23:21PM +, Yuri Z wrote: > > @Ali @Upayavira > > Is the release still stuck? > > Are there any issues can be addressed to finalize the release? > > is there any way to help out? > > what about the due reports? > >count > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:01 PM Michael MacFadden < > > michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I am revising the legal perspective today. > > > > > > On 10/20/15, 6:40 PM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > >As far as I'm concerned, you can still vote on the existing thread. > > > >Please vote from a legal perspective rather than a technical one. > > > > > > > >The timeframe is set to ensure people have the ability to vote - it > > > >isn't a requirement that it completes within a specific timeframe. > > -- > Andreas 'count' Kotes > Taming computers for humans since 1990. > "Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do > it. > Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- Howard > Thurman
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Not quite the same. The project has put the release to the Incubator PMC. If they do not respond, it isn't the Wave community's fault. So, in the board report, you can state that you are waiting on the Incubator PMC to complete your I first release vote. Upayavira On Sun, Nov 29, 2015, at 10:15 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: > Im assuming since we havnt heard anything the situation is still the > same? > > On 17 November 2015 at 03:33, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > Bug and nudge on general@incubator. > > > > Upayavira > > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2015, at 04:40 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > > > Is there anything we can do to help with that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/14/15, 6:07 AM, "Ali Lown" <a.lo...@gmail.com on behalf of > > > a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > > > > > >I am trying to get enough votes from IPMC, we need 3 but only have 2 > > > >currently (Justin, Christian). > > > > > > > >Ali > > > > > > > >On 14 November 2015 at 00:25, Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Is the release still stuck due to the issue the general member is > > having? > > > >> On 06/11/2015 4:13 AM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Ahh, got it. What you meant was: > > > >>> 6 committer votes > > > >>> 1 mentor vote > > > >>> 4 non-binding > > > >>> > > > >>> I took it to mean 6 votes total, of which 1 mentor and 4 non-bonding. > > > >>> > > > >>> Clarity shines forth, thank you. > > > >>> > > > >>> Are you now in a position to forward this to general@incubator? > > > >>> > > > >>> Thx > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 05:10 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > > > >>> > Upayavira, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Am I overlooking something? > > > >>> > > > > >>> > I definitely wrote 6 committer votes (+1 mentor vote) in the email > > > >>> > dated 3rd November. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-dev/201511.mbox/%3CCABRGrVenajwQPBw98Zy99UqrMNNQMJ-X5tGcWWAMR3xNX%2Bnu7w%40mail.gmail.com%3E > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Ali > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On 3 November 2015 at 19:46, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > >>> > > Congrats Ali, and good luck with your future plans! > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Can I ask you to check those tallies? I'm sure there are more > > > >>> > > committer/PPMC member votes than two. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Upayavira > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015, at 03:22 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > > > >>> > >> Hi all, > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> Thanks for taking part in verifying this release candidate, it > > is > > > >>> > >> great to finally be able to take a potential release to the > > others in > > > >>> > >> the incubator! > > > >>> > >> (I apologize for not following up sooner, I have finally > > graduated > > > >>> > >> from Uni, so am now sorting out what comes next...) > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> These results supersede the email I sent dated 18th October, > > with the > > > >>> > >> results now looking like: > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> +1: 6 (+1 mentor, +4 non-binding) > > > >>> > >> +0: 0 > > > >>> > >> -0: 0 > > > >>> > >> -1: 0 > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> Ali > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> On 18 October 2015 at 02:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > > >>> > >> > Hi all, > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Bug and nudge on general@incubator. Upayavira On Mon, Nov 16, 2015, at 04:40 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > Is there anything we can do to help with that? > > > > > On 11/14/15, 6:07 AM, "Ali Lown" <a.lo...@gmail.com on behalf of > a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > >I am trying to get enough votes from IPMC, we need 3 but only have 2 > >currently (Justin, Christian). > > > >Ali > > > >On 14 November 2015 at 00:25, Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Is the release still stuck due to the issue the general member is having? > >> On 06/11/2015 4:13 AM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> Ahh, got it. What you meant was: > >>> 6 committer votes > >>> 1 mentor vote > >>> 4 non-binding > >>> > >>> I took it to mean 6 votes total, of which 1 mentor and 4 non-bonding. > >>> > >>> Clarity shines forth, thank you. > >>> > >>> Are you now in a position to forward this to general@incubator? > >>> > >>> Thx > >>> > >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 05:10 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > >>> > Upayavira, > >>> > > >>> > Am I overlooking something? > >>> > > >>> > I definitely wrote 6 committer votes (+1 mentor vote) in the email > >>> > dated 3rd November. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-dev/201511.mbox/%3CCABRGrVenajwQPBw98Zy99UqrMNNQMJ-X5tGcWWAMR3xNX%2Bnu7w%40mail.gmail.com%3E > >>> > > >>> > Ali > >>> > > >>> > On 3 November 2015 at 19:46, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > >>> > > Congrats Ali, and good luck with your future plans! > >>> > > > >>> > > Can I ask you to check those tallies? I'm sure there are more > >>> > > committer/PPMC member votes than two. > >>> > > > >>> > > Upayavira > >>> > > > >>> > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015, at 03:22 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > >>> > >> Hi all, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Thanks for taking part in verifying this release candidate, it is > >>> > >> great to finally be able to take a potential release to the others in > >>> > >> the incubator! > >>> > >> (I apologize for not following up sooner, I have finally graduated > >>> > >> from Uni, so am now sorting out what comes next...) > >>> > >> > >>> > >> These results supersede the email I sent dated 18th October, with the > >>> > >> results now looking like: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> +1: 6 (+1 mentor, +4 non-binding) > >>> > >> +0: 0 > >>> > >> -0: 0 > >>> > >> -1: 0 > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Ali > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 18 October 2015 at 02:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >>> > >> > Hi all, > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > >>> > >> > and truly passed. > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to > >>> put > >>> > >> > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > >>> > >> > failing to meet my own deadline). > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > The result looks something like (including mine): > >>> > >> > +1: 3 (2 binding) > >>> > >> > +0: 0 > >>> > >> > -0: 0 > >>> > >> > -1: 0 > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > >>> > >> > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > >>> > >> > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from Apache, > >>>
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Ahh, got it. What you meant was: 6 committer votes 1 mentor vote 4 non-binding I took it to mean 6 votes total, of which 1 mentor and 4 non-bonding. Clarity shines forth, thank you. Are you now in a position to forward this to general@incubator? Thx On Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 05:10 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > Upayavira, > > Am I overlooking something? > > I definitely wrote 6 committer votes (+1 mentor vote) in the email > dated 3rd November. > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-dev/201511.mbox/%3CCABRGrVenajwQPBw98Zy99UqrMNNQMJ-X5tGcWWAMR3xNX%2Bnu7w%40mail.gmail.com%3E > > Ali > > On 3 November 2015 at 19:46, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > Congrats Ali, and good luck with your future plans! > > > > Can I ask you to check those tallies? I'm sure there are more > > committer/PPMC member votes than two. > > > > Upayavira > > > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015, at 03:22 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Thanks for taking part in verifying this release candidate, it is > >> great to finally be able to take a potential release to the others in > >> the incubator! > >> (I apologize for not following up sooner, I have finally graduated > >> from Uni, so am now sorting out what comes next...) > >> > >> These results supersede the email I sent dated 18th October, with the > >> results now looking like: > >> > >> +1: 6 (+1 mentor, +4 non-binding) > >> +0: 0 > >> -0: 0 > >> -1: 0 > >> > >> Ali > >> > >> On 18 October 2015 at 02:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > >> > > >> > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > >> > and truly passed. > >> > > >> > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to put > >> > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > >> > failing to meet my own deadline). > >> > > >> > The result looks something like (including mine): > >> > +1: 3 (2 binding) > >> > +0: 0 > >> > -0: 0 > >> > -1: 0 > >> > > >> > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > >> > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > >> > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > >> > > >> > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from Apache, as > >> > this vote does seem to suggest that there is not enough interest from > >> > the currently defined committers to maintain this project here. > >> > > >> > I am not really sure why none of the other committers responded at all > >> > to the vote... > >> > > >> > Ali > >> > > >> > [0]: > >> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#votes-on-code-modification > >> > [1]: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave > >> > > >> > On 14 October 2015 at 17:27, Jérémy Naegel <jeremy@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> +1 > >> >> > >> >> +Jérémy Naegel <http://google.com/+JérémyNaegel> > >> >> Public Information Officer > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> +1 > >> >>> I did the following: > >> >>> - Checked signatures > >> >>> - Opened the binary and verified it works. > >> >>> - Opened the source and verified that it can be built and works. > >> >>> - Reviewed the changes for the rc 10. > >> >>> > >> >>> Ali - Thanks for making this RC! > >> >>> > >> >>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > Hi all, > >> >>> > > >> >>> > RC10 is now available for review. > >> >>> > Artefacts can be found here: > >> >>> > https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc10/ > >> >>> > (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f > $f.sha') > >> >>> > > >> >>> > I have included both source and binary artefacts for convenience. > &g
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Congrats Ali, and good luck with your future plans! Can I ask you to check those tallies? I'm sure there are more committer/PPMC member votes than two. Upayavira On Tue, Nov 3, 2015, at 03:22 PM, Ali Lown wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for taking part in verifying this release candidate, it is > great to finally be able to take a potential release to the others in > the incubator! > (I apologize for not following up sooner, I have finally graduated > from Uni, so am now sorting out what comes next...) > > These results supersede the email I sent dated 18th October, with the > results now looking like: > > +1: 6 (+1 mentor, +4 non-binding) > +0: 0 > -0: 0 > -1: 0 > > Ali > > On 18 October 2015 at 02:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > > > > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > > and truly passed. > > > > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to put > > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > > failing to meet my own deadline). > > > > The result looks something like (including mine): > > +1: 3 (2 binding) > > +0: 0 > > -0: 0 > > -1: 0 > > > > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > > > > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from Apache, as > > this vote does seem to suggest that there is not enough interest from > > the currently defined committers to maintain this project here. > > > > I am not really sure why none of the other committers responded at all > > to the vote... > > > > Ali > > > > [0]: > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#votes-on-code-modification > > [1]: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave > > > > On 14 October 2015 at 17:27, Jérémy Naegel <jeremy@gmail.com> wrote: > >> +1 > >> > >> +Jérémy Naegel <http://google.com/+JérémyNaegel> > >> Public Information Officer > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> +1 > >>> I did the following: > >>> - Checked signatures > >>> - Opened the binary and verified it works. > >>> - Opened the source and verified that it can be built and works. > >>> - Reviewed the changes for the rc 10. > >>> > >>> Ali - Thanks for making this RC! > >>> > >>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hi all, > >>> > > >>> > RC10 is now available for review. > >>> > Artefacts can be found here: > >>> > https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc10/ > >>> > (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f > $f.sha') > >>> > > >>> > I have included both source and binary artefacts for convenience. > >>> > > >>> > The release version (if successful) will be 0.4.0-incubating > >>> > > >>> > This is taken from the branch 0.4.0-rc10 of the incubator-wave > >>> repository. > >>> > > >>> > Notable changes since earlier initial release attempts include: > >>> > - Use of typesafe config > >>> > - Bumped versions of Jetty, GWT, etc. > >>> > - Assorted tweaks to build system > >>> > > >>> > A summary of useful information can be found in RELEASE-NOTES, and a > >>> > list of changes in CHANGES in the source artefacts. > >>> > > >>> > Action Required: > >>> > Please go and test these packages (most importantly the source ones) > >>> > for any outstanding legal problems, or any runtime problems in a > >>> > 'standard' configuration. > >>> > > >>> > We are not looking for a perfect first release, as there is plenty of > >>> > time to fix outstanding bugs in future releases, but we do want to get > >>> > 0.4 out soon (at long last). > >>> > > >>> > This vote will close around GMT 17th October 2015. > >>> > > >>> > [ ] +1 Release it! > >>> > [ ] +0 Ok, but... > >>> > [ ] -0 Ok, but you really should fix... > >>> > [ ] -1 Definitely do not release this because... > >>> > > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > Ali > >>> > > >>>
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
As far as I'm concerned, you can still vote on the existing thread. Please vote from a legal perspective rather than a technical one. The timeframe is set to ensure people have the ability to vote - it isn't a requirement that it completes within a specific timeframe. thx. Upayavira On Mon, Oct 19, 2015, at 09:39 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: > All, > > I still find the Wave project quite interesting and am more than happy to > help. I just haven’t really felt the pull of the community. If I > thought there we something specific I could do to help I would be more > than happy. I would like to see the release finally happen. Even if we > eventually move away it would be nice to have completed this process once > during the life of the project. > > If there is another vote I will participate. I will review the process > and functional status and provide a vote. > > So you can count me in. > > ~Michael > > > > > On 10/18/15, 4:56 AM, "Upayavira" <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > >Non-binding votes have a different value. If we had insufficient > >committer/PPMC votes but loads of quality (I.e not drive by) non-binding > >votes, it would suggest we have a different problem, and could look how > >to addresss that. > > > >Upayavira > > > >On Sat, Oct 17, 2015, at 09:33 PM, Zachary Yaro wrote: > >> I would have cast a vote, but I read non-binding votes were discouraged. > >> To clarify, what are the criteria for being able to cast a binding vote > >> for > >> this project? > >> > >> Zachary Yaro > >> > >> On 17 October 2015 at 21:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > >> > > >> > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > >> > and truly passed. > >> > > >> > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to put > >> > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > >> > failing to meet my own deadline). > >> > > >> > The result looks something like (including mine): > >> > +1: 3 (2 binding) > >> > +0: 0 > >> > -0: 0 > >> > -1: 0 > >> > > >> > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > >> > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > >> > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > >> > > >> > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from Apache, as > >> > this vote does seem to suggest that there is not enough interest from > >> > the currently defined committers to maintain this project here. > >> > > >> > I am not really sure why none of the other committers responded at all > >> > to the vote... > >> > > >> > Ali > >> > > >> > [0]: > >> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#votes-on-code-modification > >> > [1]: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave > >> > > >> > On 14 October 2015 at 17:27, Jérémy Naegel <jeremy@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > +1 > >> > > > >> > > +Jérémy Naegel <http://google.com/+JérémyNaegel > >> > <http://google.com/+J%C3%A9r%C3%A9myNaegel>> > >> > > Public Information Officer > >> > > > >> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> +1 > >> > >> I did the following: > >> > >> - Checked signatures > >> > >> - Opened the binary and verified it works. > >> > >> - Opened the source and verified that it can be built and works. > >> > >> - Reviewed the changes for the rc 10. > >> > >> > >> > >> Ali - Thanks for making this RC! > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > >> > > >> > >> > RC10 is now available for review. > >> > >> > Artefacts can be found here: > >> > >> > https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc10/ > >> > >> > (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f > $f.sha') > >
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Wave 0.4.0-rc10
Non-binding votes have a different value. If we had insufficient committer/PPMC votes but loads of quality (I.e not drive by) non-binding votes, it would suggest we have a different problem, and could look how to addresss that. Upayavira On Sat, Oct 17, 2015, at 09:33 PM, Zachary Yaro wrote: > I would have cast a vote, but I read non-binding votes were discouraged. > To clarify, what are the criteria for being able to cast a binding vote > for > this project? > > Zachary Yaro > > On 17 October 2015 at 21:48, Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks to Yuri and Jeremy for downloading and trying out this RC. > > > > Well, I set a "deadline" around the 17th October which has now well > > and truly passed. > > > > My vote on the matter was a +1 (though I realize that I failed to put > > this in my original email, so you are allowed to ignore this for > > failing to meet my own deadline). > > > > The result looks something like (including mine): > > +1: 3 (2 binding) > > +0: 0 > > -0: 0 > > -1: 0 > > > > Unfortunately we have had insufficient votes to meet the release > > requirement (minimum of 3 +1 binding votes, more + than -) [0]. > > Binding votes as decided by people in [1]. > > > > @Yuri/Jeremy: How do you feel now about us moving away from Apache, as > > this vote does seem to suggest that there is not enough interest from > > the currently defined committers to maintain this project here. > > > > I am not really sure why none of the other committers responded at all > > to the vote... > > > > Ali > > > > [0]: > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#votes-on-code-modification > > [1]: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave > > > > On 14 October 2015 at 17:27, Jérémy Naegel <jeremy@gmail.com> wrote: > > > +1 > > > > > > +Jérémy Naegel <http://google.com/+JérémyNaegel > > <http://google.com/+J%C3%A9r%C3%A9myNaegel>> > > > Public Information Officer > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> +1 > > >> I did the following: > > >> - Checked signatures > > >> - Opened the binary and verified it works. > > >> - Opened the source and verified that it can be built and works. > > >> - Reviewed the changes for the rc 10. > > >> > > >> Ali - Thanks for making this RC! > > >> > > >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM Ali Lown <a...@lown.me.uk> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi all, > > >> > > > >> > RC10 is now available for review. > > >> > Artefacts can be found here: > > >> > https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc10/ > > >> > (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f > $f.sha') > > >> > > > >> > I have included both source and binary artefacts for convenience. > > >> > > > >> > The release version (if successful) will be 0.4.0-incubating > > >> > > > >> > This is taken from the branch 0.4.0-rc10 of the incubator-wave > > >> repository. > > >> > > > >> > Notable changes since earlier initial release attempts include: > > >> > - Use of typesafe config > > >> > - Bumped versions of Jetty, GWT, etc. > > >> > - Assorted tweaks to build system > > >> > > > >> > A summary of useful information can be found in RELEASE-NOTES, and a > > >> > list of changes in CHANGES in the source artefacts. > > >> > > > >> > Action Required: > > >> > Please go and test these packages (most importantly the source ones) > > >> > for any outstanding legal problems, or any runtime problems in a > > >> > 'standard' configuration. > > >> > > > >> > We are not looking for a perfect first release, as there is plenty of > > >> > time to fix outstanding bugs in future releases, but we do want to get > > >> > 0.4 out soon (at long last). > > >> > > > >> > This vote will close around GMT 17th October 2015. > > >> > > > >> > [ ] +1 Release it! > > >> > [ ] +0 Ok, but... > > >> > [ ] -0 Ok, but you really should fix... > > >> > [ ] -1 Definitely do not release this because... > > >> > > > >> > Thanks, > > >> > Ali > > >> > > > >> > >
Re: Incubation
Remember, this is a release for legal reasons, not technical. Do not let *any* technical concern block its release. If a valid legal concern (e.g. it doesn't pass a RAT run) then fix and reroll immediately. The only thing that could take dev work is the removal of non-compliant dependencies. But i don't believe we have any of those. Those who are on the PPMC (and those who are not), you will need to demonstrate that you are here and attentive. You will need to look at what Ali produces, read through Apache release docs, and confirm that, to the best of your understanding, this release is good. Without three people doing this and voting +1, this release will die once more. I will not be voting. The reason this work is required for the PPMC is because it is one of the primary responsibilities of members of an Apache PMC, and is one of the skills that projects must learn during incubation. Upayavira On Thu, Oct 8, 2015, at 03:58 AM, Ali Lown wrote: > Upayavira, > > I do concede that after watching over Wave here for the last 3 years > the project doesn't appear to have progress hugely far in terms of new > user-visible functionality, but I don't think that this means the end, > as there has been a slow-but-steady set of work on more underlying > things - I would argue that 'we' have a tendency to the first 90% of > the work, but then stop a bit short far too often. > > Yuri and I have put together 9 release candidates for general review > under the name 0.4, which have received very varied quantities of > responses from the community at large, though all positive - but > ultimately all these RCs have had some form of bug we have > (previously) considered to be show-stopping, prior to reaching the > stage of sending the RC to the IPMC. I would say that this is due in > part to the large time scales between (later) attempts, and the > patches received in the interim time which caused a breakage, and more > generally due to a lack of usage outside of release testing, resulting > in these being the first time non-apparent bugs manifest themselves. > > It would appear that the best way to progress forward from this > blocking point, is to simply cut RC10 from (roughly) where we > currently stand on master. Say "we know it has bugs, but it > sort-of-works if you do X and run only as Y, we will fix everything > else in future releases" - which would prevent us getting stuck again > at RC stage for anything short of "it doesn't work on any system > because the RC is missing the build scripts" - allowing the project to > meet the final criteria that has eluded this project for far too long > now. > > Our next board report would be due in January, and assuming we would > agree to make our initial release under the limited statement above, I > think that making a release by then is perfectly achievable. > > I would be happy to put together an RC10 tomorrow, as long as there > are still people on the Wave list interested in seeing its release? > > Ali > > On 7 October 2015 at 22:48, Upayavira <u...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > That is a reasonable response, Evan. > > > > So, let's look at what graduation might look like, then we can see about > > what goals might be reasonable: > > > > A podling must have: > > 1. proven its ability to produce legally correct releases > > 2. demonstrated its ability to vote in new committers and PPMC members > > 3. a diverse community > > 4. sufficient PPMC members to be able to command 3 or more votes on all > > important matters, > > notably new committers/PPMC members and on releases. > > > > So, the ONE thing this podling needs to do before our next board report > > is due is make a release. > > > > This involves these steps: > > * prepare a tarball containing the source > > * validate that it is (to the best of our knowledge) legally correct > > * get at least 3 +1 votes from PPMC members > > * submit it to the Incubator PMC for checking > > > > I personally am hesitant to vote on such things as I have limited > > experience of release vetting. My holding back should not be considered > > as a negative in any way. > > > > The PPMC needs to be able to demonstrate its ability to do this in a > > self managed way, i.e. without prodding from mentors. > > > > Note, I don't mention in that list "getting the Incubator PMC to accept > > the release". That can sometimes be challenging. But having shown that > > this PPMC can (a) produce a release tarball and (b) submit it to the > > Incubator PMC having acquired 3 or more +1 votes from PPMC members would > > make a big difference in terms of moving us closer to
Re: Incubation
That is a reasonable response, Evan. So, let's look at what graduation might look like, then we can see about what goals might be reasonable: A podling must have: 1. proven its ability to produce legally correct releases 2. demonstrated its ability to vote in new committers and PPMC members 3. a diverse community 4. sufficient PPMC members to be able to command 3 or more votes on all important matters, notably new committers/PPMC members and on releases. So, the ONE thing this podling needs to do before our next board report is due is make a release. This involves these steps: * prepare a tarball containing the source * validate that it is (to the best of our knowledge) legally correct * get at least 3 +1 votes from PPMC members * submit it to the Incubator PMC for checking I personally am hesitant to vote on such things as I have limited experience of release vetting. My holding back should not be considered as a negative in any way. The PPMC needs to be able to demonstrate its ability to do this in a self managed way, i.e. without prodding from mentors. Note, I don't mention in that list "getting the Incubator PMC to accept the release". That can sometimes be challenging. But having shown that this PPMC can (a) produce a release tarball and (b) submit it to the Incubator PMC having acquired 3 or more +1 votes from PPMC members would make a big difference in terms of moving us closer to meeting graduation requirements. Reasonable? Upayavira On Wed, Oct 7, 2015, at 02:01 PM, Evan Hughes wrote: > maybe instead of deciding the end instead you and Christian set goals > that > must be completed by the next checkpoint aka have x amount of submits, > have > x more active contributors to help gain momentum. If the tasks are not > completed sufficiently or dismally fail then sure maybe its for the best. > > On 7 October 2015 at 22:44, Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Well as the video discussion we had earlier this year, the main problem > > has been the complexity. We have been taking steps in this direction with; > > > > * reducing technical debt (removing updating dependencies), can bee seen > > from patches last week and there has been work in a gradle or sbt build > > system which allows people to understand how the project works together. > > > > I personally have been looking into giving the website a fresh coat of > > paint in the past couple of weeks (infrastructures docs on building locally > > are eh if not on a mac ;) but did get it working). We have also had the > > addition of the android project for wave. > > > > Progress might be slow but progress is still being made. > > > > On 7 October 2015 at 20:54, Upayavira <upayav...@odoko.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> I need to sign off the Wave report, but find this difficult. > >> > >> The Apache Incubator exists to facilitate projects moving towards being > >> fully fledged ASF projects. Wave has been > >> incubating since 2010, and in that time it has not yet been able to > >> build a community that is likely to sustain itself as an ASF > >> project. > >> > >> It does, therefore, seem to me that it is time for us to retire as a > >> podling, and allow people here to continue in a location more fitting > >> with the current level of effort, without the expectation that it needs > >> to meet some specific set of incubation requirements. > >> > >> Note that all of the source code is Apache Licensed, meaning it can be > >> forked elsewhere - the only discussion required is the name that the > >> relocated project would take. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> Upayavira > >> > > > >
Re: [VOTE] Wave Release Candidate 9
Yes, please do! On Sat, May 30, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuri Z wrote: Ok, should we then proceed with release while adding a notice that federation is broken atm? On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 11:23 AM Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: remember that the intent of this release is to show that we know how to do it, not to make it perfect. A release with some bugs, given the stage of development of Wave, is potentially a *good* thing rather than a bad one, as it may provide newcomers with the incentive to help fix those bugs. Let's get a legally correct release out now, and then aim to follow it with another that has more bugs fixed. Upayavira On Fri, May 29, 2015, at 09:36 PM, Yuri Z wrote: Well, actually it looks like we have an issue with federation... On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:35 PM Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: What I'm waiting to hear is here's a release that we've all voted on and think is ready, which I will then review and (hopefully) pass onto the incubator PMC for further review. Upayavira On Fri, May 29, 2015, at 07:59 AM, Ben Hegarty wrote: A massive +1, that would be a massive help as I know that I spend ages figuring that out! :) Regards Ben On 29 May 2015, at 03:15, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: idk if this is an interest for you guys but a part of the documentation I was thinking of adding a vagrant build solution. If you havnt heard of vagrant its just a virtual machine organiser+. Let me know if you think pushing this forward would help fix the problem of people not trying out the release candidates and ill put it to the top of my tbd's. On 27 May 2015 at 21:14, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Yuri, Yep. I will be free again to put in some time this weekend to look at this. I think that I must have broken the third-party jars that enable federation some time when I tidied them all up a while back. This wasn't found earlier because: 1) Nobody tried a completely clean build including re-fetching all the third-party objects 2) The binary releases you produced were made using the old jars - so contain one of the missing packages, hence the binary artifacts were working fine when tested. Things to note then: 1) Just because the binary artifacts work, they might not be the same as the source artifacts 2) Always generate releases from a completely clean check out and run everything again. We were so close... Ali On 27 May 2015 at 08:33, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like the wave release got stuck again. Anyways, let's discuss discuss how can we handle this... On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 5:21 PM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I tested by checking out the RC 9 branch and fetching jars/building - it worked fine. I didn't check federation. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:25 PM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: If you fetch the jars do you have the same error trying to start the server? Ali On 7 May 2015 07:46, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't fetched the jars - just copied them from existing folder. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:44 AM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I see, what was the issue with federation? On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:00 AM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: -1 due to the inability to start the server with federation enabled. (I will change this to +1 if this is me failing to build correctly). Checked: - SHA512 hashes and GPG signs - Built using JDK7 and ran tests - Checked README, CHANGES, KEYS, RELEASE-NOTES, build.properties - Started server without federation using file backends. Tested wave creation, simple editing, etc. - Artifact naming seems good. - Was unable to start server with federation (missing org/xmpp/component/Log). Seems like a problem with the whack.jar file that is fetched during build. This is making me wonder how it worked in the RC8 binary package? @Yuri: Do you get the same error here, or do you get something different when you build from the artifact in a clean folder? Ali On 5 May 2015 at 18:23, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Great, thanks Ali. I checked that the source compiles and runs. On Tue 5 May 2015 at 17:39 Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I think we may wish to extend the vote duration, as no-one seems to have responded. I have just gotten around to this email in my inbox, so hope to get
Re: [VOTE] Wave Release Candidate 9
remember that the intent of this release is to show that we know how to do it, not to make it perfect. A release with some bugs, given the stage of development of Wave, is potentially a *good* thing rather than a bad one, as it may provide newcomers with the incentive to help fix those bugs. Let's get a legally correct release out now, and then aim to follow it with another that has more bugs fixed. Upayavira On Fri, May 29, 2015, at 09:36 PM, Yuri Z wrote: Well, actually it looks like we have an issue with federation... On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:35 PM Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: What I'm waiting to hear is here's a release that we've all voted on and think is ready, which I will then review and (hopefully) pass onto the incubator PMC for further review. Upayavira On Fri, May 29, 2015, at 07:59 AM, Ben Hegarty wrote: A massive +1, that would be a massive help as I know that I spend ages figuring that out! :) Regards Ben On 29 May 2015, at 03:15, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: idk if this is an interest for you guys but a part of the documentation I was thinking of adding a vagrant build solution. If you havnt heard of vagrant its just a virtual machine organiser+. Let me know if you think pushing this forward would help fix the problem of people not trying out the release candidates and ill put it to the top of my tbd's. On 27 May 2015 at 21:14, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Yuri, Yep. I will be free again to put in some time this weekend to look at this. I think that I must have broken the third-party jars that enable federation some time when I tidied them all up a while back. This wasn't found earlier because: 1) Nobody tried a completely clean build including re-fetching all the third-party objects 2) The binary releases you produced were made using the old jars - so contain one of the missing packages, hence the binary artifacts were working fine when tested. Things to note then: 1) Just because the binary artifacts work, they might not be the same as the source artifacts 2) Always generate releases from a completely clean check out and run everything again. We were so close... Ali On 27 May 2015 at 08:33, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like the wave release got stuck again. Anyways, let's discuss discuss how can we handle this... On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 5:21 PM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I tested by checking out the RC 9 branch and fetching jars/building - it worked fine. I didn't check federation. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:25 PM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: If you fetch the jars do you have the same error trying to start the server? Ali On 7 May 2015 07:46, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't fetched the jars - just copied them from existing folder. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:44 AM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I see, what was the issue with federation? On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:00 AM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: -1 due to the inability to start the server with federation enabled. (I will change this to +1 if this is me failing to build correctly). Checked: - SHA512 hashes and GPG signs - Built using JDK7 and ran tests - Checked README, CHANGES, KEYS, RELEASE-NOTES, build.properties - Started server without federation using file backends. Tested wave creation, simple editing, etc. - Artifact naming seems good. - Was unable to start server with federation (missing org/xmpp/component/Log). Seems like a problem with the whack.jar file that is fetched during build. This is making me wonder how it worked in the RC8 binary package? @Yuri: Do you get the same error here, or do you get something different when you build from the artifact in a clean folder? Ali On 5 May 2015 at 18:23, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Great, thanks Ali. I checked that the source compiles and runs. On Tue 5 May 2015 at 17:39 Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I think we may wish to extend the vote duration, as no-one seems to have responded. I have just gotten around to this email in my inbox, so hope to get to this this evening... Ali On 29 April 2015 at 20:44, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: RC9 is now available for review. Artifacts can be found here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/wave/0.4.0-rc9 (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f $f.sha') This time I included only source artifacts. The release version will be: 0.4.0-incubating This is taken from branch https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-wave.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/0.4.0
Re: [VOTE] Wave Release Candidate 9
What I'm waiting to hear is here's a release that we've all voted on and think is ready, which I will then review and (hopefully) pass onto the incubator PMC for further review. Upayavira On Fri, May 29, 2015, at 07:59 AM, Ben Hegarty wrote: A massive +1, that would be a massive help as I know that I spend ages figuring that out! :) Regards Ben On 29 May 2015, at 03:15, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: idk if this is an interest for you guys but a part of the documentation I was thinking of adding a vagrant build solution. If you havnt heard of vagrant its just a virtual machine organiser+. Let me know if you think pushing this forward would help fix the problem of people not trying out the release candidates and ill put it to the top of my tbd's. On 27 May 2015 at 21:14, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Yuri, Yep. I will be free again to put in some time this weekend to look at this. I think that I must have broken the third-party jars that enable federation some time when I tidied them all up a while back. This wasn't found earlier because: 1) Nobody tried a completely clean build including re-fetching all the third-party objects 2) The binary releases you produced were made using the old jars - so contain one of the missing packages, hence the binary artifacts were working fine when tested. Things to note then: 1) Just because the binary artifacts work, they might not be the same as the source artifacts 2) Always generate releases from a completely clean check out and run everything again. We were so close... Ali On 27 May 2015 at 08:33, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like the wave release got stuck again. Anyways, let's discuss discuss how can we handle this... On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 5:21 PM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I tested by checking out the RC 9 branch and fetching jars/building - it worked fine. I didn't check federation. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:25 PM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: If you fetch the jars do you have the same error trying to start the server? Ali On 7 May 2015 07:46, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't fetched the jars - just copied them from existing folder. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:44 AM Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I see, what was the issue with federation? On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:00 AM Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: -1 due to the inability to start the server with federation enabled. (I will change this to +1 if this is me failing to build correctly). Checked: - SHA512 hashes and GPG signs - Built using JDK7 and ran tests - Checked README, CHANGES, KEYS, RELEASE-NOTES, build.properties - Started server without federation using file backends. Tested wave creation, simple editing, etc. - Artifact naming seems good. - Was unable to start server with federation (missing org/xmpp/component/Log). Seems like a problem with the whack.jar file that is fetched during build. This is making me wonder how it worked in the RC8 binary package? @Yuri: Do you get the same error here, or do you get something different when you build from the artifact in a clean folder? Ali On 5 May 2015 at 18:23, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Great, thanks Ali. I checked that the source compiles and runs. On Tue 5 May 2015 at 17:39 Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I think we may wish to extend the vote duration, as no-one seems to have responded. I have just gotten around to this email in my inbox, so hope to get to this this evening... Ali On 29 April 2015 at 20:44, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: RC9 is now available for review. Artifacts can be found here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/wave/0.4.0-rc9 (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f $f.sha') This time I included only source artifacts. The release version will be: 0.4.0-incubating This is taken from branch https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-wave.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/0.4.0-RC9 Reminder on what included previous release candidates: RC7 and RC8 included: - Release related fixes. RC6 included: - Bug Fixes RC5 included: - Added MongoDB based deltas store and migration tool for deltas migration from file to mongo based store. - Added client/server profiling. - Added Atmosphere framework as replacement of Socket.IO. - Added alternative - Gmail style initials avatars. - Decreased number of permutations in dev compilation and added GWT superdev mode. - Upgraded the server to Jetty 9.1.1. - Added JDK 7 compatibility. RC4 included: - More licensing fixes - Federation works - New and updated translations - And more... A summary of useful information can be found in RELEASE-NOTES, and a list of changes in CHANGES at the above artifact
Re: Moderator: please unsubscribe
I have unsubscribed everyone on this list, and BCC’d them too, seeing as they won’t see this message otherwise. Upayavira On Thu, May 7, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Basavaraj K N [MaGE] wrote: Please unsubscribe my this email ID basavaraj...@manipalglobal.commailto:basavaraj...@manipalglobal.com” I have now connected over my person mail, which i will retain Thanks Bas On 07-May-2015, at 3:33 pm, Kabir Sohel kbr...@gmail.commailto:kbr...@gmail.com wrote: Please unsubscribe me too. Thanks in advance On 7 May 2015 12:02, Pedro Montoto García pmgb...@gmail.commailto:pmgb...@gmail.com wrote: Please unsubscribe me too: pmgb...@gmail.commailto:pmgb...@gmail.com Thanks 2015-05-07 8:56 GMT+02:00 Raju Bitter rajubit...@gmail.commailto:rajubit...@gmail.com: Hi, could one of the moderators please unsubscribe me from this list. The email I registered with is rajubit...@googlemail.commailto:rajubit...@googlemail.com (got converted to rajubit...@gmail.commailto:rajubit...@gmail.com by Google). I tried sending to wave-dev-unsubscribe-user=rajubitter.googlemail@incubator.apache.orgmailto:wave-dev-unsubscribe-user=rajubitter.googlemail@incubator.apache.org but that didn't work. Thanks, Raju Mailgate Notification - DISCLAIMER - This email is for the sole use of the Manipal Group its Entities and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original message. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. -- -
Re: Coming Months
Thanks for this, Evan. Given it was you that proposed the Hangout, it would seem reasonable that we try to accommodate you. Anyone here have any objections to an earlier concall, say, 2pm UTC? Are there any Pacific time participants? Regarding the document, we need to keep it *really* simple. To be quite frank, when you are trying to restart someone’s heart, you don’t worry much about a sore on their leg. We need to be looking for the absolute simplest things we can do that might make this project more accessible. They have to be small enough that someone here can undertake them with a reasonable certainty of completion and success. The main resource we lack at the moment is people to actually do the work, so we need to identify small, manageable tasks that will help draw in new resources which might, in turn, allow us to take on larger tasks. Upayavira On Tue, Apr 7, 2015, at 04:43 AM, Evan Hughes wrote: Google Doc full of talking points, available for anyone to edit as they see fit. Its a combination of the summary Mr Grobmeier made from the other thread and some person thoughts. Talking points for hangout https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_7wraANGg6XKfvENPwEgEn7_umlU0Y1eA5CjQcuvhxU/edit?usp=sharing Need to make sure the hangout is recorded as for myself 12am 2am 4am is 50/50 shot ill be able to stay awake to watch it live haha. On 7 April 2015 at 05:26, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Times are whatever you set the doodle timezone to be (Top right). Ali On 6 Apr 2015 20:17, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: I presume times are UTC? On Mon, Apr 6, 2015, at 02:39 AM, Ali Lown wrote: Here is a fairly large Doodle poll to see see when may work as a good date/time for a hangout. http://doodle.com/uz9vq9qiwyuqigsa Let me know if you want more time options. Ali On 4 April 2015 at 07:28, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: I would be happy to participate. Perhaps the first thing to know is.. What time zones people are all in. I am in US Pacific Time Zone (UTC -7:00). ~Michael On 4/2/15, 7:40 AM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: sure, just need to know what time of day is suitable for the speakers as we should keep a record of it for people to view whenever. Thanks to the other threads there's plenty of stuff to compile a list of talking points, I'll put something together over the next week. On 2 April 2015 at 23:33, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I think another hangout would be a great thing to have. @Evan: Are you happy to organise this? Ali On 1 April 2015 at 16:23, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Id be glad to listen in, but since I am not a technical contributor, I will try mostly just to monitor. All the best, John Blossom email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, could we get a Google hangout of the Mentors and contributors to solidify the direction which wave will be heading and pointing out what needs to be done other than just thoughts on the mailing list.
Re: Coming Months
I presume times are UTC? On Mon, Apr 6, 2015, at 02:39 AM, Ali Lown wrote: Here is a fairly large Doodle poll to see see when may work as a good date/time for a hangout. http://doodle.com/uz9vq9qiwyuqigsa Let me know if you want more time options. Ali On 4 April 2015 at 07:28, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: I would be happy to participate. Perhaps the first thing to know is.. What time zones people are all in. I am in US Pacific Time Zone (UTC -7:00). ~Michael On 4/2/15, 7:40 AM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: sure, just need to know what time of day is suitable for the speakers as we should keep a record of it for people to view whenever. Thanks to the other threads there's plenty of stuff to compile a list of talking points, I'll put something together over the next week. On 2 April 2015 at 23:33, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I think another hangout would be a great thing to have. @Evan: Are you happy to organise this? Ali On 1 April 2015 at 16:23, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Id be glad to listen in, but since I am not a technical contributor, I will try mostly just to monitor. All the best, John Blossom email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, could we get a Google hangout of the Mentors and contributors to solidify the direction which wave will be heading and pointing out what needs to be done other than just thoughts on the mailing list.
Re: about voting on releases
Another thing I’ll add - whilst a simple +1 vote is enough, it really helps the rest of us if we state *what* we reviewed that helped us come to the conclusion. If everyone checked licensing, and no-one ran a build, we’d know we had some extra work to do before we’d all feel comfortable. Upayavira On Wed, Apr 1, 2015, at 06:39 PM, Upayavira wrote: for those here that aren't familiar with Apache style release votes, here is some background. When we vote on a release candidate, we are saying two things: that we believe it to be valid from a licensing perspective, and that we think the code is in a good technical state to be released. The former is more important than the latter. If you are considering voting, please do. Please download the artefact, and review it. Check license headers and licence attribution, and then build the code and run it. Then vote! Strictly speaking, it is the vote of members of the Incubator PMC that count. However, demonstrating that the community is behind the release is also crucially important, so whoever you are, committer or not, programmer or not, please download the artefact and review some of it. Thanks! Upayavira
Re: Coming Months
I would also happily join. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Hi, I was once attending such a meeting and will do it again if it is helpful to this community. Mind to organize something via in example doodle? Cheers Christian On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, at 05:26, Evan Hughes wrote: Hey all, could we get a Google hangout of the Mentors and contributors to solidify the direction which wave will be heading and pointing out what needs to be done other than just thoughts on the mailing list.
about voting on releases
for those here that aren't familiar with Apache style release votes, here is some background. When we vote on a release candidate, we are saying two things: that we believe it to be valid from a licensing perspective, and that we think the code is in a good technical state to be released. The former is more important than the latter. If you are considering voting, please do. Please download the artefact, and review it. Check license headers and licence attribution, and then build the code and run it. Then vote! Strictly speaking, it is the vote of members of the Incubator PMC that count. However, demonstrating that the community is behind the release is also crucially important, so whoever you are, committer or not, programmer or not, please download the artefact and review some of it. Thanks! Upayavira
Re: Raise your hands if you would like to participate
See mention of it here: https://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide.html Upayavira On Tue, Mar 24, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Ben Hegarty wrote: Who do we send the scanned ICLA to? On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@apache.org wrote: Awesome feedback so far. Keep it coming. All non-committers: please consider signing an ICLA right now. https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt We can only accept code contributions with a signed ICLA. Also we can only vote you in the team when we have your ICLA on file. If any questions on the ICLA, please let me know Cheers Christian On Tue, Mar 24, 2015, at 09:01, Ben Hegarty wrote: +1 Happy to work on something, just need to be allocated a task, I've now finished successfully integrating my own separate user account system for a separate project into the wiab codebase (to replace the login screens add profile pages), just let me know what needs doing :) On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 2:32 AM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: +1 Although, only if we have some specific objectives, like getting a release, or mavenizing, or any other well defined task that we can move towards as a group. More like +0 if it just random work on random issues that I am interested in knocking of in Jira. On 3/23/15, 5:47 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: +1. One of my main time-sink responsibilities is about to come to an end (post an AGM later today). Ali On 23 March 2015 at 22:22, Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado v...@ourproject.org wrote: +0.5 (to be realistic) -- Regards Ben -- Regards Ben
Re: Roadmap
Kirill, It is great that you have been building on top of an Apache codebase. Now is the time that the Wave project needs you to step forwards - perhaps start offering some of your refactorings back into Wave itself, because without participation, soon there won’t be a Wave for you to build upon. Please join in the discussions and let us know where you can contribute. But remember, we all contribute here as individuals first. Thanks! Upayavira On Tue, Mar 24, 2015, at 02:48 PM, Kirill Kostyuchenko wrote: Hello Wiab! During the year Andrew Kaplanov Denis Konovalchik implemented new structure of data store, protocol and renderer to accelerate big waves opening. We have already deployed to wiab.pro: Renderer: - dynamic rendering only visible screen area - highlighting of deleted blips New protocol: - opening the wave with displaying changes since previous opening - reopening the wave after connection is lost - error diagnostics We're going to deploy to wiab.pro soon: Data store: - creation of snapshots and operation history for requested documents (for blips in the visible area) - operation aggregation during writing - data deserialization only when it's necessary New protocol: - uploading blips into visible area - data deserialization only when it's necessary We support our own wiab.pro instance and would be glad if Apache Wiab placed the link to wiab.pro as a commercially supported demo-server onto http://incubator.apache.org/wave/index.html page. In this case we could be a company supporting and coordinating the development and we would commit more into the official repository. Does anybody have some plans? It would be nice to avoid duplicating our implementation efforts. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I can share my own roadmap - or things I would do. 1. Modernization 1.1 Replace GXP templating system that is used to generate few front end HTMLs with something that is main stream and well documented. 1.2 Replace ant scripts that are used to build the project/manage dependencies with something else - like Maven, Gradle or SBT. I personally don't like maven and prefer more modern build systems like gradle/sbt. 1.3 Replace the system configuration framework that is custom written Google thing with something more standard. It would be nice to replace server.config and custom annotations with Typesafe Config. 2. Rewrite of the concurrency handling. The current concurrency handling code is buggy and really complex. Some of it uses locks for synchronization, some is asynchronous with callbacks and some works with Guava futures. Parts of it were written for Google Wave but most was hacked for FedOne and later for Wiab. I think this particular logic can be greatly simplified if re-written using the Akka Actors framework. In Java or preferably in Scala (that's why I prefer SBT over Gradle). 3. Re-think how we should solve the tight coupling/great complexity of client-server protocol. Maybe we should split the Wiab project into two parts server and client - where server will depend on compiled javascript client. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 1:12 PM Christian Grobmeier grobme...@apache.org wrote: we have volunteers for the next months. Why not discussing what we should do? My first preference would be: craft a release. I forgot what was missing back then, but it would be great to find out from the mail archives and create jira issues for the open things. Maybe Ali could help here, as he was the RM for the last try. The next thing would maybe be more technical. Can you throw in some concrete ideas what could be achieved in small steps? I guess refactoring everything is not a good start :) Regards, Christian
Re: GSoC 2015 with Apache Wave
Pablo, As a mentor, I have no particular take on technical issues. My goal is to foster community. Or come to the uncomfortable conclusion that there is unlikely to be a sufficient community for an ASF project. I honestly don’t know why Wave has, so far, failed to build up any level of momentum. The underlying principles seem cool, but it just hasn’t taken off. My suspicion is that anyone who takes an interest is turned off by the complexity of the codebase, and wanders off to some other implementation of something similar. If that supposition is true, then simplifying the codebase to the point where a newcomer can actually make some sense of it, and possibly modernising a little along the way, could be a way to unlock the future of this project. If you have already done some work on decoupling, then this is really good news. We just (as Ali says) need to get this reviewed and hopefully incorporated. The simple question that should drive the GSoC discussion: what changes can we make to the WiaB codebase that will make it easier, more accessible and more appealing to new developers/contributors? Upayavira On Sat, Mar 21, 2015, at 06:44 PM, Pablo Ojanguren wrote: Upayavira, Regarding your question, does it stand for the project/community vision? I have worked on decouple server and client code from GWT one and it seems it hasn't attracted attention. If the mentor must represent the community, then it must have clear idea of project's aim and next steps. 2015-03-20 20:07 GMT+01:00 Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk: I think your last question is the most important one - is there someone here prepared to be a mentor, according to the terms specified by Google? If you have read the recent archives of Wave, you’ll see that there hasn’t been much activity here. My question is, could Roshan, working on Wave, resolve some of the technical issues that the project has that prevent it from gaining additional developers? From my outside perspective, removing, or separating out the client/server, removing the GWT code/etc could be steps that could help make the codebase more palatable, and make the obvious benefits of the Wave protocol more accessible to newcomers via this codebase. That would be the perspective I’d want us to take with GSoC - not add a nice bit on the side for the project, but look to make some fundamental fixes to the accessibility of the codebase. Thoughts? Mentor volunteers? Upayavira On Fri, Mar 20, 2015, at 04:50 PM, Roshan Lakmal wrote: Hi all, I stared to read about Wave architecture and protocol. Can I still continue this project for GSoC 2015 or Is there any other task that I can contribute. Is there anyone to mentor me for GSoC 2015? Cheers, Roshan. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Pablo Ojanguren pablo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Roshan, I have re-engineered part of the original GWT webclient and port core code to Android [1]. With the app you can connect to a Wave server and operate at Wavelet-level with the original Java code. A new UI for the conversational model could be added on top of it. As long as original code is Java it mostly works on Android, except specific GWT parts that have been replaced. Pablo [1] https://github.com/Zorbel/swell-android [2] http://p2pvalue.eu/blog/awakening-decentralised-real-time-collaboration 2015-03-19 19:53 GMT+01:00 Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk: Hi Roshan, You will probably be interested to read about the Client-Server Protocol[1], and its associated protobuf implementation[2], as this is what currently defines the 'split' between the WebClient and the Server parts of WIAB. As this protocol works entirely with deltas, you to retrieve the 'content' for display in your client, you will need to understand the Conversation Model[3], which defines how create the familiar Wave structure on top of the underlying federateable delta-backed protocol. You should be able to re-use most of the model code[4] in your client. I hope these pointers give you somewhere to start from, feel free to ask me any further questions whilst navigating the wave codebase. Also, whilst not directly applicable - as I started at the federation end, you may find my 'rave'[5] codebase useful as a way of wrapping your head around the conversation model. Ali [1]: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/whitepapers/client-server-protocol/ [2]: src/org/waveprotocol/box/common/comms/waveclient-rpc.proto [3]: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/whitepapers/conversation/ [4]: src/org/waveprotocol/wave/model/* [5]: https://github.com/alown/rave On 19 March 2015 at 18:14, Roshan Lakmal roshan.2013
Re: Wave and Incubation
Yuri, Please know that there’d be no reason (as far as I am aware) that current data would be removed from JIRA/Wiki/etc. It would simply be marked read-only. I don’t know whether it’d be possible to add a forwarding message to the top of such pages. Upayavira On Tue, Mar 17, 2015, at 05:41 PM, Yuri Z wrote: I agree that from the point of view of adding to the source/experimenting - there's no advantage to staying with Apache. However, there are other reasons. 1. Doing a release will signify that the code base is free of legal issues and thus encourage adoption of it by other parties, like wiab.pro, co-meeting, kune etc... 2. The Apache Wave site and this mailing list had become a known place to look for the Wave related info. There's no other well established place like this. The wave-protocol at google code was such place before Apache, but it isn't now. Establishing a new home will confuse new and old Wave followers. 3. Migrating issues from Jira and Wiki will take considerable effort, again... Probably a lot of info will be just lost. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:03 PM Tobias Pfeiffer tgpfeif...@web.de wrote: Hi, I guess this is my first post to this list, even though I am subscribed for a year or so know and following the discussions here. The technology in Wave seems quite amazing to me (in particular the federation part, which hardly any commercial entity would add to their product out of a business interest) and I would love to see the project flourish, but – just judging from what I saw here on the mailing list – I was always wondering if this project is going anywhere from its current state. I don't know the project and its history very well, but it seems to me that even *if* it was possible to make a release or convince Apache that Wave should stay in the incubator, I don't see how overall progress should be made. My feeling is that moving out of Apache to, say, Github (not Sourceforge, though...) can't make anything worse, but it *might* lower the barrier to collaboration. Thanks Tobias
Re: Wave and Incubation
To have demonstrated the community’s knowledge of how to make Apache compatible releases, and to have shown a stable and sustainable community. These are the most important, regarding Wave. As a community, we’ve sat back and waited - we’ve not really put any effort into attracting new talent. When people with big bright ideas come along, they seem likely to implement them elsewhere because the Wave codebase is too complicated. Now, the most important first step is getting a release out. However, because I’ve seen the release be attempted a lot of times, even if a release was made, I’d have sizeable expectations about how regularly they are going to be done. That is, it isn’t about getting a release out, it is about knowing how to do it, about demonstrating that, and about having a community that is pulling behind the task of producing software worthy of release. Given the size of the community around the WiaB product, it seems best to move to an alternative hosting setup without the strictures that Apache does place on a project. These strictures make life harder for a developer in order to make life easier for a user. However, right now, Wave needs to be focusing on developers, not users. As to Apache as a place to keep protocols, whilst Apache has held some protocols, it isn’t a standards organisation. Where it has done so, it is only by virtue of maintaining the reference implementation of the standard. There will be other places that could be done in a way that allows multiple implementations. Upayavira On Mon, Mar 16, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Yuri Z wrote: What are the technical requirements for graduation? On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:39 AM Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado v...@ourproject.org wrote: El 16/03/15 a las 08:35, Christian Grobmeier escribió: I would like to highlight that retirement does not mean end of life. There is a chance thing will get easier once on GitHub. Don't forget, Apache is not only a great community, it's also a set of rules, frameworks, restrictions and so on. It's do-able for a bigger community. But the Wave community hardly is able to allocate time to do that final step with the release. No offense, I know for myself how hard it is to allocate time. In a GitHub environment, Wave would have done that release already (or most likely). I agree, that protocols may have a good place at Apache. But just because retirement is not successful this time does not mean it's not successful another time. If Wave can build up a community, it can always come back to incubation. However my feeling says, you need to make access easier to Wave. This means also the full power of pull requests, which we only offer partially. Hi there: At this moment, I see Apache Wave mainly as a protocol, so IMHO Apache is a good place for something like this. So I vote to stay and to avoid the forking nightmare of a protocol. If not, we should find another organization, different than github. Meanwhile, I'm close to release a new version of kune with a totally new user interface: http://kune.cc https://github.com/comunes/kune/ I think that kune is a good example of how Wave can be integrated in 3rd party software. I try to maintain minimal differences with the Apache Wave code and Wave for us is just some more maven dependencies. The main goals of Apache Wave and kune are different. I'm trying since 2002 to build collaborative spaces for any kind of project/area (not just FLOSS projects), like a social multipurpose github: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ourproject.org I started to develop kune in 2007 and using the same technology/frameworks than Wave, when Google released wave, I just replaced our non-concurrent editor with Wave. So I'm playing with Wave code, since the first FedOne release. For some stats of code, etc: https://www.openhub.net/p/apache_wave https://www.openhub.net/p/kune kune.cc is in production since four years ago hosting 20.000 documents, 90% are waves. When some developer/contributor arrives to kune, I'll always try to suggest to start contributing to wave, but til now, people prefer to talk than to walk (or code). Sorry for the ad block, but I think that clarifies my point. Greetings, Vicente
Wave and Incubation
Wave has been incubating for some years now, and, unfortunately, has not shown a level of growth that, in my opinion, would suggest that it is likely to reach graduation from the Incubator. Unfortunately, I think it is time we accept that Wave is unlikely to reach graduation, and should retire. To explain what this means - as I understand it, the ASF repo would be marked read-only, and after a period of time, the lists disabled. The code would, however, remain open-source, and any person, or group of people would be free to fork the code and continue with it elsewhere, e.g. Github/Sourceforge/etc. In the end, this is a decision of the Incubator PMC, however I’d like to see whether anyone here has any thoughts to add before I put this to the wider Incubator community. Upayavira P.S. This came up on the incubator-general list as a part of a discussion on the Wave report
Re: RC6 available for pre-view
We should aim to get a legally valid release out, and not worry so much about bugs, this time. We can make a 0.4.1 release soon afterwards that fixes those bugs. That release will be way simpler than the previous one. Upayavira On Fri, Aug 29, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Yuri Z wrote: I found a bug with attachments when using mongodb as the store type. In such a case upload attachment fails since mongodb store doesn't support storing attachment metadata. On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I think we should discuss the versioning. I adopted the http://semver.org/ for RC6. So the RC6 version looks like: 0.4.0-rc.6-incubating And the release version will be 0.4.0. Any thoughts? On Aug 29, 2014 7:37 AM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: All, Very nice. I am doing some testing on the demo right now. Thus far nothing major to report. What are the main things we should be reviewing for RC6? I have been following the licensing discussion. Anything else? ~Michael On 8/28/14, 3:10 PM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Please preview/review the RC6 at https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/wave/0.4.0-rc.6-incubatin g/ There's also a demo server for RC6 - http://ec2-23-22-27-34.compute-1.amazonaws.com:9898/#waveinabox.net/w+kVxc CWkLmsA
Re: [VOTE] Move Wave to a true 'git' repository at Apache
Maybe not, but it needs consensus, and if the vote gives us that, then all well and good. Upayavira On Sat, Dec 14, 2013, at 06:31 AM, Yuri Z wrote: I think we just need to issue the request to Infra, no need to vote. On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:19 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: As one of the main contention points, lets get Wave moved off the git-svn life support, and in to a true git repository. Since this would affect everyone (especially the other developers), I am just going to run a quick check here... This vote is open for 72 hours. [ ] Move to Git at Apache [ ] Retain Subversion I vote to move to true git. Ali
Re: [VOTE] To stay or not to stay
As I'm sure you can imagine, I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. If a project still has some life (and Wave does), really the only other thing it needs to stay in the incubator is engaged mentors. The mentors are the link between the podling and the ASF. For me, this vote is to gauge where the community wants to be. The last thing I want to do is mentor a group of folks that actually want to be elsewhere. If the collective decision (principally of the committers/PPMC members) is to stay, then I'm happy to stay around and see where we can take this project. Upayavira On Tue, Dec 10, 2013, at 08:03 PM, Pratik Paranjape wrote: How (or for how long) is this a choice? If WAIB does not show improvement in the amount of activity, a mentor will be asking same question again...whether Wave is a suitable project for the incubator. The discussion started because Christian raised this question in the first place. Based on past few months statistics, any significant improvement in activity will be a dramatic outcome and seems unlikely at this point. On the other hand, I think Wave will survive even through long periods of inactivity as long as intellectual property stays openly accessible under permissible enough open source license. Moving away from Apache may actually breath some new direction. Unless we can guarantee significant activity improvemnent, we are just postponing the issue until next month. Considering the questions of trademarks, I think it's going to be easy if whoever wants to implement new ideas makes a fork and takes it further. Or uses the ideas and completely redesign everything like Joseph is planning . In any case I think github can generate more activity, even if not as WAIB. What happens to trademarks of abandoned Incubator projects? On 11 Dec 2013 01:09, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: I'm actually going to abstain. As you know, I want to run a kickstarter to create a new iteration of wave. I won't reuse the current codebase, and I won't place the new project with the ASF. This decision should be made by people who want to keep working with the current code. -J On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Hill r...@zndx.org wrote: I vote stay, for what it's worth. I would have an easier time funding one or more developers if I know the resulting code would eventually reside under the Apache umbrella. Best of luck either way though. On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: It seems to me that the time has come to make a decision here, and for now, I'm going to ask that we consider just one simple question: * Should Wave stay within Apache, or leave. I'm going to ask that we postpone any discussion about either option that isn't required to make the decision, until the vote is complete. If discussion is to occur, please move it to a separate thread, to keep the [VOTE] thread clean. I'm going to suggest that this vote runs for 72hrs, and that we aim for consensus. Should anyone wish to change their vote based upon the votes of others, that's fine, only your last vote will count. I'm going to suggest that for this vote to succeed, we'll need full consensus of committers/PPMC members. Community votes are also very much welcome, but committer/PPMC votes will be the ones that make up the final tally. If this vote does not receive a consensus, then the status quo will continue until another event occurs to change it. I myself am not going to vote, as I see this as a vote for those who feel ownership of the project and its codebase. I couldn't make an impartial vote anyway. So, here's your chance to cast your votes: [ ] Wave should stay at Apache [ ] Wave should leave Apache, and find a home elsewhere Thanks, Upayavira
Re: Wave Kickstarter
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013, at 05:35 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote: On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 1 Dec 2013, at 19:24, Joseph Gentle wrote: On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: My only worry with a KS is how do we market it? As beyond putting it on Hacker News, explaining an P2P OT-backend communication system is likely to confuse (if not discourage) potential backers. (It also sounds more like the abstract for some academic research, than a commercial project [the issue with being on the edge of research for this technology]). Aside from hackernews, we should talk to techcrunch and all the other little tech news places. We should do a meetup on the topic here in SF to gather support, and we should try to sell the story to our local newspapers in our hometowns. I have friends who are good at this stuff that I can call on. I agree though - the hardest part is (as you say) figuring out how we distill down the idea to make it easy to explain. I can help a little with marketing. I have a well visited blog meanwhile and the right story might draw some good attention to a kickstarter campaign. Oh sweet, thanks! We'll also want to do a media blitz, telling techcrunch and all those guys. As I have some interest in making Wave happen and so I would even support the Kickstarter myself with $. That all being said, with all the new ideas and hope I would say we should postpone the go to github discussion a little more. I think ppl will support some ASF Wave more than a random github Wave. And be it only because of the safety for a clean IP. Actually, I don't want to run this project through the ASF: - I'd prefer to use the benevolent dictator model, at least for the initial development period. I don't think the ASF is the right place for brand new projects, and this will be entirely new code. - I don't want to have to convince a peanut gallery of backers before I make decisions about the project. I'm happy for the input, but building consensus amongst 1000 people for every decision will kill any project. - Politically, I will also need to develop out of github for the hip-new-project feel. Even google has started putting their projects on github. I'm don't actually think people will support an ASF wave more - I doubt most developers know who the ASF are or what they do, let alone regular people. The developers who have heard of the ASF probably associate it more with old, mature XML libraries, Java build tools with bad websites enterprise tools like hadoop rather than young agile projects. The ASF might make sense after a year or two, but I want the project to mature outside of the ASF first. The IP will be clean anyway - it'll be entirely new code, and I'll probably keep the apache2 license for patent protection (that won't do much for a standalone project, but I might be able to flee under the apache umbrella if any patent trolls actually come knocking). Please let me know if I can do more to support this effort (speaking with my entrepreneur hat on, not my ASF hat) Thanks - I may well take you up on that :) I think the biggest way people will be able to help is to help get the word out if/when we launch a kickstarter. For this sort of thing we'll want a media blitz in the first few days of launching the kickstarter to build momentum and get people talking about it. Joseph, Just to say that what you are proposing is eminently possible within an ASF framework. You can create an SVN or git branch, and work there to your heart's content. The wider community need only kick in at the point at which you want to release something. I'm not saying you should do it in the ASF. As has been suggests here, you'll need to assess a set of intangibles to make your decision - which location would get you more traction? Which would better facilitate exploration? Which would appeal most to potential funders? And then, when you've made your decision, the rest of hue he wave community needs ego make their own decision as to whether to stay or go. All I'd like is that a decision is made, one way or the other. Upayavira
Re: Incubation status
Personally, I'd say do anything that helps people work. The release is important in Apache terms, but right now, we're looking at how to have a community at all. A release with no community to back it wouldn't give the world much. So, if folks think that Mavenization helps, and will ease development, then go for it, I say. Upayavira On Mon, Dec 2, 2013, at 01:46 AM, Michael MacFadden wrote: I would still be more than happy to press through the mavenization, but it seemed like people were some what against the idea until we got the release out the door historically. Thoughts? On 12/1/13, 5:37 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: It'll get slim once mavenized. On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: It is quite a large repo :) Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: No problem, at the moment its still checking out. I'll note down any other issues other then those two as I get any. (Actually still on WindowsXP here ;) ) ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 1 December 2013 23:02, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: Or a wave ;) On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and something I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on each major OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly what needs doing or what errors come up. If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like the wiki.. Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: ora wave? ;) It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get more activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off topic... Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: ok, svn checkout; Note #1: Get an Error validating server certificate for https://svn.apache.org:443: Unknown certificate issuer. Fingerprint: bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b Thawte, Inc., US I accept once and proceed. (I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting started) ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: cheers :) ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: The latest source code: http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development. Stuck #1; Wheres the latest source?
Re: Incubation status
The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy for some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't behind it, it will be pointless effort. If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or elsewhere, I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think it should go. Upayavira On Fri, Nov 29, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: Wave really lacks a roadmap? Surely that's something that could be hammered out, at least in rough, in this mailing list? Seems to be some agreement on the need to separate client/server. And I guess with that comes the need for a documented protocol between the two. Is there other prerequests for these? (Not necessarily saying this is the #1 thing, merely something to get the ball rolling on the next few steps to take) ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 29 November 2013 05:27, Jeff j...@kropek.org wrote: Hi Im on vacation am writing from my phone... I really just wanted to add that I have been lurking on the mailing list to try get a feel for the project. I am Looking forward to working on it irrespective of org form. Jeff Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain active developers here). The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still outstanding]). I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be: A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which the client/server are examples... Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us with several things: - Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use and git-svn still chokes
Re: Why does nobody vote on the release? (was: Fwd: Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC4)
Bruno, You are kinda right, and kinda not :-) I guess the thing is, it is perhaps best to say that this release *ISN'T* about code, it is about everything else. And that everything else includes licensing, but also includes the communities ability to self manage. Therefore, I'd suggest that everyone review the release as best they can, from both a licensing and a code perspective. You can state in your vote what you checked and what you didn't. All you are stating is that you checked to the best of your abilities. Over time, I hope we'll all get better at knowing what to look for. That's why we pass the release vote on to the Incubator PMC - to have folks more experienced also give it a once-over, so that we don't yet need to worry too much about knowing what we are doing. Also, don't assume you need to be a committer to vote. I'd love to be able to forward this vote to the incubator PMC saying we had 15 +1 votes :-) Upayavira On Fri, Sep 13, 2013, at 06:13 PM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) wrote: I was under the (maybe incorrect) impression that these releases are not focused on the code per se, but rather on getting the release process right: solve copyright and licensing issues, correct packaging of third party libraries, and similar issues. If that assumption is correct, at the moment I can not be of much help; Ali and veteran Apache members know heaps more than I do, so I wouldn't be able to provide a *meaningful* vote without first carefully studying the Apache requisites. However, if code is (very) relevant, I may have time to test it later this weekend. (holidays, real life issues, and three hard disks failing in almost-consecutive days, have been stopping me from testing the RC). For the record, I've tested Ali's federation patches in the past, since most of them had been in his github repo for weeks already: they do improve the stability, and is a very nice and welcome improvement over the previous status of wiab federation. Only for that, I'd provide a +1 vote. Though as I mentioned, I have not really tested those patches in the exact form as they are included in the latest RC4. On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Am 12.09.13 20:35, schrieb Ali Lown: It seems nobody else is able to give feedback at this point. Christian raised some things that are worth doing, so I may as well start again with RC5, which I will push up in a few weeks time. [It is a bit too busy for me ATM.] Hopefully, by being a bit later, people won't be on holiday, so will be able to review it. :P I would say save the time for now. It has been 2 weeks time for voting. This project has seen messages. It's september, not mid of august. We got 1 (!) community vote. Vincente mentioned he is away (thats fine) and John is not so much into gory technical details (accepted so far). But where were the others? Is it really holidays which prevents the vote? Do we ALL have holidays at the same time? Before we move on with a new RC, i would like to know from the people listed here: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave why they didn't vote.** Was it really holidays? No interest? No time? It has been *a lot* of work for Ali to deal with the ASF release procedures and kick out multiple RCs. It would be worth to know if he should continue and if there will be any voters in the future. If there is nobody who is willing to open a zip file, look into it and send out a +1, then its really alarming. It took me 30 minutes or so to check the release. This is not so much. I have hoped the excitement in the project after John and a few others appeared was so big that we would have managed to get a new release out for review. If others, maybe Incubator Shepherds* look at this project now, they would think: no community. Please let me - us - know what you who are on the list above prevented to vote**. Cheers*** Christian * Incubator Shepherds are Incubator PMC people, who look independently from the mentor on the activity of the project and provide a second insight for the report ** Of course I don't want you to speak out anything which should be kept private - remember this is a public list. I just want to know: is there a realistic chance that we ever get more than 3 votes? 3 are required to get it out, but given the huge list of committers we should get more votes. *** I am not a native speaker - and I hope my email doesn't sound to angry. I am not. I would be dissappointed if it finally turns out that we have lost the energy and steam of the past days Ali -- Regards/Saludos, Bruno Gonzalez http://www.stenyak.com | stenyak @ irc://irc.freenode.net
Re: Reminder: it should happen on-list (regarding upcoming Google Hangout)
Just a small thought to consider during this discussion. You are talking about some major changes to the tooling and workflow typical of Apache communities. Wave is currently in the incubator, making it a probationary project. I would say that the principal aim should be to understand the principles of the ASF, to demonstrate that understanding, and graduate from the incubator. Having done that, life will be easier when attempting such things as getting Wave enabled servers, engaging in PR, etc. Remember that graduation is based upon how the community operates, and has nothing to do with the quality, or otherwise, of the code-base. And the next big thing is getting that release out - proving that we understand how to correctly license(etc) our code. (We didn't actually get to the point of releasing, did we??) Upayavira On Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: @Christian: below are some small considerations of mine about WWers and AW Disclosure: I'm a WWers member and I'm speaking as myself solely, not for the network/organization WWer.org. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: I like WW being an independent community which creates buzz running by its own rules. At this moment, as I see it, *independent* is the keyword on all this conversation. BTW, there is always the possibility to bring the WW community to the ASF too. Given the tools WW is using, it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe later when AW is stable and installed at ASF it makes sense to include the WW community as part of the AW community. Something similar happened with Apache OpenOffice. People were running a support forum for OpenOffice and they have joined the project. Thanks for your suggestions, it's great to see that our work matter and that we can still add lots of value to the future of Wave and Apache Wave. I *personally* don't see WWer.org ever becoming a AW community (but things change, right?!). That doesn't mean, that the community (people) that now represent WWer.org can't form other communities, even within AW. IMO, WWers members are probably the best prepared ones to assume that role and make it happen, on a similar approach to your example about Apache OpenOffice support forum. It's great to know that those doors exist and may be open when needed. Once again thanks.
Re: Frequent turbulence bugs resolved with updated client server protocol patch
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 08:57 AM, Yuri Z wrote: I think Kirill raises here an important question - i.e. what should be the relations between the Apache Wave project and other WIAB based products. The issue is a bit tricky, because as I see it - Apache Wave cannot endorse or promote other commercial projects on one hand, but on the other hand it would be great to have many WIAB based servers - including third party servers like wiab.pro, which can inter-operate with each other and contribute back to the main project. In my opinion, the solution would be like this: 1. The third party demo servers will be put in different section and we will clearly state that those servers are not endorsed by Apache. 2. Only servers that are satisfy the following conditions will be considered legitimate: a) WIAB based b) Free to use c) Actively contribute back to Apache Wave. I think such a solution will allow to grow the Apache Wave community and provide information about third party WIAB based servers that take part in WIAB development. What you think? I think you have captured the issues well. I personally would say that the main question is that there is no bias. We can have a page that lists: * free WIAB based servers * for cost WIAB based servers * WIAB compatible non-WIAB wave servers So long as what someone has fits into one of these categories, we can list it. I'd say we can leave the 'contributing back' element to them. The license doesn't require it, and if WIAB really takes off, they'll struggle to maintain a compatible fork, so will learn by experience the necessity for getting your fixes into the mainline codebase. Upayavira
Re: Frequent turbulence bugs resolved with updated client server protocol patch
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 11:56 AM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: 2. Only servers that are satisfy the following conditions will be considered legitimate: a) WIAB based b) Free to use c) Actively contribute back to Apache Wave. I think such a solution will allow to grow the Apache Wave community and provide information about third party WIAB based servers that take part in WIAB development. What you think? Shouldn't compatibility be a requirement too? That is, not only serverserver but serverclient. Or, at least, a commitment to conform to the WIAB reference as it develops its protocols. In the end, truthfulness is what matters. We could have a section listing servers that are *not* compatible with WIAB. Wouldn't reflect very well on those servers though, I'd say, so could provide an incentive to improve compatibility. (of course, in this specific case wiab.pro passes with ease as its contributing protocol improvements back) Which is a good thing! Upayavira
Waveprotocol.org (was Re: A New Committer)
That sounds reasonable. The idea of a separation is nice, but I agree that responsibility for the protocols does appear to ave fallen on us. If this is the case, can we have the waveprotocol.org domain transferred to the ASF? Then the infrastructure team can point it wherever we ask. Upayavira On Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 04:41 AM, Michael MacFadden wrote: My two cents on the protocol site would be that we should create a section on the apache site and/or wiki dedicated to protocols. The waveprotocol.org domain could point to that. On 7/8/13 7:53 AM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Ali, Thanks so much, thoughts below. Best, John On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Heh. This saves us having to write an [ANNOUNCE] for you... FIRST! Tee hee. One key thing that I'd like to chip away at is getting our Web presences sussed out a bit more. Web sites/ownership, social media presences, communications with the media - all of these need to get organized for success. I am not sure what sort of 'social media presence' would make sense for an Apache project? Could you clarify? One of the challenges that many products/platforms have is awareness of a given presence as a brand. When people say Apache Wave in places like Facebook or Google+ or Twitter, for example, we want people to catch on that Apache Wave communicates about itself via social media to developers and to the public via more than just its own Web site. So it would make sense to have for official announcements and general communications a Facebook page, a Google+ page, a Twitter account and perhaps a LinkedIn account. This is important for people referencing us in their posts as well as for our own communications. So, for example, when I write a post in Google+ that references Apache Wave, a +Apache Wave link will provide a hyperlink in that post to an Apache Wave page on Google+, which can have announcements and links to our official site. These are fundamental and important marketing tools, IMO, and can enable us to publicise key milestones and services availability more effectively. Example: shouldn't waveprotocol.org be labeled clearly as an Apache Wave asset? The wave protocol site is controlled by Michael (IIRC), and is was not originally directly related to the Apache project, rather the open-source protocol behind wave. (Of which we seem to have become the keepers). We have had several attempts in the past to migrate the useful information over to the wiki here, which I think is now complete. (If anybody knows any relevant, up-to-date information left on waveprotocol.org that is not on the wiki here, please add it!) As such, I don't know if there is any point in keeping waveprotocol.org any more? (Perhaps it should just redirect to our incubator site?) I am thinking that a redirect would be the right thing to do if all of the information is migrated, presuming that we have control of the DNS record to do this. We need to make the Apache ownership of the brand 100 percent clear. Ali
Re: Joining as a Mentor
What wiki? Do we have one? If not, I can get one set up. We have a choice of MoinMoin or Confluence. Upayavira On Tue, Jun 25, 2013, at 04:12 PM, John Blossom wrote: Thank you! Glad to have your help. BTW, how does one add oneself to be an editor of the wiki? Anyone? Thanks. John Blossom On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Thanks all! I have subscribed myself now On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 6:45 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: I've appreciated your help and insight, glad to have you aboard. Best, John On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hello Wave'rs, as you might know, I am Apache Member and involved in various projects. I also have mentored a bunch of podlings, like for example OpenOffice, OGNL and Onami. Currently I am helping the Ripple podling. You also have already seen in this list. Currently there is Upayavira who does a great job with mentoring. With the new activity in this podling I would like to help him, because he is the only active mentor currently. Now I would like to ask the project if they would like to see me stepping up as a mentor. Basically I would do the things I currently do, but would also be able to sign the reports. If there are no objections, I will notify the IPMC and update the mentors list for Wave. Cheers, Christian -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Feedback from Incubator Vote
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Ali Lown wrote: It looks like RC3 will fail at the Incubator vote. (This is both fine and expected) Yep. This also conveniently lets us merge some of the other fixes (for example the broken translations/eclipse) in for RC4. Okay, but don't absorb *too* many changes. The main problem seems to (still) be the third_party/* files (particularly in the source release - I don't know if they are okay to be included in the 'binary' release). A *source* release must be source only. Third party jars aren't source, so shouldn't be included. They are fine in a binary release. It looks like the easiest way to handle this is to have them all downloaded during the get-third-party ant task. That would be a reasonable thing for the build script in the src distribution to do, but so long as there is some way (even manual) for that to happen, I don't see it as an issue. Some comments were raised about the src/python/api files not being correctly licensed. Manually inspecting them it appears rat wasn't complaining because they are all Apache licensed, but we have 'Licensed under the Apache License' used for some, and (the correct?) 'Licensed to the Apache Software Foundation' in others. The first would be valid for code written elsewhere, and the latter for code being maintained here. Which are they? We (may) need to file for an ECCN given we use bouncy-castle. (Is this only an issue if we include it, if we have it fetched by a separate task (given the IPMC don't seem to like having the jars shipped with Wave) is it still a problem?) The ECCN stuff is for 'exporting encryption'. If we release a convenience binary, then as far as the US govt is concerned, we need to do the ECCN stuff. Upayavira
Re: Feedback from Incubator Vote
Or use Ivy to download from the Maven repo. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 21, 2013, at 11:01 AM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) wrote: Presumably we want wiab to be independent from third party download websites, so the get-third-party-libs script should point to our own mirror of all those jars? On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.comwrote: +1 to adding all the third party .jars to an ant task. There's a tonne of them in there, and it's hard to keep track of what licence what library is under. Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: On Fri, Jun 21, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Ali Lown wrote: It looks like RC3 will fail at the Incubator vote. (This is both fine and expected) Yep. This also conveniently lets us merge some of the other fixes (for example the broken translations/eclipse) in for RC4. Okay, but don't absorb *too* many changes. The main problem seems to (still) be the third_party/* files (particularly in the source release - I don't know if they are okay to be included in the 'binary' release). A *source* release must be source only. Third party jars aren't source, so shouldn't be included. They are fine in a binary release. It looks like the easiest way to handle this is to have them all downloaded during the get-third-party ant task. That would be a reasonable thing for the build script in the src distribution to do, but so long as there is some way (even manual) for that to happen, I don't see it as an issue. Some comments were raised about the src/python/api files not being correctly licensed. Manually inspecting them it appears rat wasn't complaining because they are all Apache licensed, but we have 'Licensed under the Apache License' used for some, and (the correct?) 'Licensed to the Apache Software Foundation' in others. The first would be valid for code written elsewhere, and the latter for code being maintained here. Which are they? We (may) need to file for an ECCN given we use bouncy-castle. (Is this only an issue if we include it, if we have it fetched by a separate task (given the IPMC don't seem to like having the jars shipped with Wave) is it still a problem?) The ECCN stuff is for 'exporting encryption'. If we release a convenience binary, then as far as the US govt is concerned, we need to do the ECCN stuff. Upayavira -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Issue with Eclipse project
Switching to Maven would give us mvn eclipse:eclipse which would generate these files for us. We could do the same with Ant, but that would no doubt take some work. Upayavira On Thu, Jun 20, 2013, at 09:52 AM, Yuri Z wrote: They are committed to SVN On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Are te Eclipse classpath and project files committed into SVN, or are they generated by ant? I'd expect there to be an 'ant eclipse' target that generates them, hence no license headers. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 19, 2013, at 08:57 PM, Ali Lown wrote: I suspect that license comment is the problem. (I don't use eclipse so simply checked that it looked valid after mass-addittion of the licenses). Commit the fix. (Though this may indicate an upstream bug if eclipse can't handle comments). Ali On 19 Jun 2013 20:52, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I am having problems with opening the Wave in Eclipse - it says the .classpath is corrupted. Does anyone else experience this issue as well? I removed the comment with Apache license and it fixed the issue for me, so should I commit the fix or it's just me?
Re: A Very Wavey Plan (P2P!)
Perfect. On Thu, Jun 20, 2013, at 03:57 AM, Michael MacFadden wrote: Upayavira, We will put a wiki page together. We will also have the discussion here. That said, I would like to select at least three people who sign up to shepherd the discussion. Everyone is welcome and the committee members won't have any specific authority. I am just looking for people to form a working group and commit to making sure we can define and meet some objectives. ~Michael On 6/19/13 6:25 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: I'd encourage you to fire up a wiki page and start the discussion here. I suspect due to te nature of the topic, participants will quickly be self selecting. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 19, 2013, at 10:11 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: To start, I want to build a generic P2P OT container. This is a simple wrapper that contains a set of OT documents and defines a network protocol for keeping them in sync. The container needs to be able to talk to another instance of itself running somewhere else and syncronize documents between the two instances. Thats all I want this container to do - it should be as lightweight as possible, so we can port it to lots of different languages and environments. I want that code running in websites, in giant server farms, in vim, and everywhere in between. It won't have any database code, network code, users or a user interface (though it'll need APIs to support all of that stuff). At its core it just does OT + protocol work to syncronize documents. I strongly suggest we separate the OT Algorithms, the application level protocol, and the network transport layer. The network transport layer should definitely be separated out. I'd also like to separate out the OT functions themselves (a la share/ottypes). I'm imagining coupling the concurrency control system and the application level protocol. This coupling might not be needed - I don't know enough yet to be able to tell. I think we should focus on figuring out what OT system(s) to use first. The OT itself I imagine building along the lines of Torben Weis's P2P OT theory that he made in Lightwave: https://code.google.com/p/lightwave/ . Briefly, every operation gets a hash (like git). We add tombstones to wave's OT type and remove invertability, so the transform function supports TP2. We also add a prune function (inverse transform) which allows the history list to be reordered (so you don't have to transform out on every site). The hard part is figuring out which operations to sync, and which operations need to be reordered. I'd like to go over the details with Michael MacFadden and anyone else who's interested - there may well be a better system that we should use instead. If there is, I'd like to know about it now. I think this is another interesting area. One thing to consider is that I am not sure if the linear model that wave used is even the right option. If we start manipulating things like JSON Objects, Java Object, XML, or nested documents, a hierarchical path mechanism may be best. Yes. For ShareJS's JSON OT type, operations are defined by a path (a list) and an operation at that path. I'm not convinced by this design anymore - we should definitely discuss it. My other instinct here is, we should make sure that we base the OT on something that has been proven to be correct. There has been some work to evaluate OT systems and prove that they are correct and solve the proper OT Puzzles and support the required properties. Two other things that we need to consider. Beyond TP1 and TP2, there are also IP1, IP2, and IP3 that you need to think about if you are going to support group undo, which in my opinion wave needs to support. If you can't undo things in collaboration, then you have problems. Using tombstones, I don't know how you can implement IP3. I've a mind to abandon formal invertibility, and simply rely on undo stacks for user level actions. But if we can find an architecture which meets our needs and can support invertibility, then that would be even better. Basically, I am not confident that we know that wave's OT or what is in lightwave is really what we want. I am not saying that they are not, I am just saying that I don't think we really have stated what we NEED from the OT and then proved that a particular approach salsifies those needs. Simply having a demo of something that works in a toy environment is likely to have holes that we don't see until much, much later in the development cycle. My recommendation here would be for us to form a small committee to do a literature review on the topic and to foster some technical discussion. The result should be something in the wiki that lays out a plan
Re: Issue with Eclipse project
Are te Eclipse classpath and project files committed into SVN, or are they generated by ant? I'd expect there to be an 'ant eclipse' target that generates them, hence no license headers. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 19, 2013, at 08:57 PM, Ali Lown wrote: I suspect that license comment is the problem. (I don't use eclipse so simply checked that it looked valid after mass-addittion of the licenses). Commit the fix. (Though this may indicate an upstream bug if eclipse can't handle comments). Ali On 19 Jun 2013 20:52, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: I am having problems with opening the Wave in Eclipse - it says the .classpath is corrupted. Does anyone else experience this issue as well? I removed the comment with Apache license and it fixed the issue for me, so should I commit the fix or it's just me?
Re: OpenOffice and Wave
Please do remember, that while in person meetups or synchronous hangouts can be useful, they are also by their nature somewhat exclusive. Therefore, please use them with restraint, and keep as much discussion, and all decisions, here on the list. Thanks! Upayavira On Mon, Jun 17, 2013, at 01:37 PM, John Blossom - Shore Communications Inc. wrote: In-person would be great. I am NYC/Boston area, where is everyone else. In the meantime much can be done on Hangouts to make in-person as productive as possible. J On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: Yep, I agree. Where should _that_ discussion happen? -J On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: A google hang out amongst wave developers is a great idea. However this is not a substitute for presenting and discussing the future of OT with the active research community. ~Michael On Jun 16, 2013, at 5:32 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Joseph, my thought is that we can have a Google+ Hangout and invite everyone in the Wave community and beyond interested in OT and related issues. Doesn't have to be perfect, we just need to get the dialogue.rolling, it seems. We can always have more. Say Weds or Thursday around 1700 UT+1? Pick a number. John All the best, John Blossom email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: Sounds interesting. Where is this going to be held? It might be interesting for a few people on this list, too. -J On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: After hooking up with Google for wave. I have been the lead architect for an OT framework much like the real time drive API being built at my company. I am encouraging my developers to reengage the apache community so we can actively contribute back. We have also done a in depth literature review regarding OT and have worked with many other teams adding OT to several projects. I personally will be chairing the 14th International Workshop on Collaborative Editing Systems (IWCES) at the ACM Computer Supported Collaborative Work (CSCW) conference next February. This workshop is one of the primary places where leading OT researchers, industry, and open source projects come to exchange ideas. I think this would be a very good community for you to get involved with if you are looking at OT. There are a lot of lessons learned, especially on using OT for rich document editing (word, PowerPoint, Vim, etc. ). I am sure there are more than enough extremely smart folks on the Open Office team, but perhaps I/we could help out if you are not to far along. Regards, ~Michael On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Adding Svante Schubert to the thread, from the ODF Toolkit project. He also chairs the subcommittee at OASIS that has been looking at OT for change tracking in ODF. On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/16/13 2:51 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: Rob, I would be interested in continuing this conversation. I have been working with the top minds in OT for the past few years. I am excited to hear the OO is interested in an OT supported mechanism. How far along are you in the process? It is very early and mainly happening in the standards committee at OASIS. The ultimate aim is to have something that could work across applications, not just between two OpenOffice instances. So this requires a sensitivity to the document model abstraction, to work at the ODF level, not just with an application's internal view of a document. OpenOffice committers are involved in the standardization side of this, as well as LibreOffice and Calligra and Gnumeric, as well as Microsoft. Initially it is about defining the document model, in a way that makes sense to the user. Since tracked changes are visible to the user, to approve or reject, we need it at a granularity that makes sense to them. Then based on those primitives, and the associated actions, we can develop an XML-based notation for expressing the state transformations. That gets us to the static/stored form of traditional change tracking. Not in plan officially is the next step, which would be the protocols for exchanging such information in real-time. But it is a possibility (even a likelihood) that is informing our design decisions. We're mindful that the real-time collaborative editing is the logical next step and we're trying to lay the right foundations
Re: OpenOffice and Wave
Note he's not subscribed - you'll need to cc. Upayavira On Sun, Jun 16, 2013, at 07:51 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: Rob, I would be interested in continuing this conversation. I have been working with the top minds in OT for the past few years. I am excited to hear the OO is interested in an OT supported mechanism. How far along are you in the process? ~Michael On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I'm not subscribed to this list, but Christian Grobmeier pointed me to John's post about how OT and Wave could be relevant to OpenOffice. I wanted to mention that the idea is being discussed, but at the standards level. The default document format for OpenOffice is Open Document Format (ODF), which is standardized at OASIS and ISO. (I chair the committee at OASIS). We're currently working on ODF 1.3 and as part of that we're adding a new change tracking mechanism based on OT. This is the traditional asynchronous change tracking that office suites have had for years, but modeled on OT terms. And, although not specified at this point, we're also aware that OT enables more interesting modes of collaboration, including synchronous/real-time, co-editing, etc. That's the main reason the OT approach is attractive, is that we can have a single model that will work for change tracking as well as co-editing. Once we get the standard side of this elaborated in more details, then the next step will be to get it implemented in Apache OpenOffice as well as the Apache ODF Toolit (incubating). But the pace of standardization is slow, and I wouldn't expect this before 2014. Regards, -Rob
Re: A Call To Developers
The canonical source of the code should be on Apache hardware. Ideally, all development and collaboration should happen on Apache hardware, without dependency on third parties. That's the aim, anyway. What *you* do, is up to you. That is, if you choose to code on github, and post pull requests to the ASF Git, etc - your code still gets into the canonical repo that way. What matters is regarding collaboration - that the community can collaborate in a way that it can control and manage. That's why expecting people to use github would be a no-no, in my view. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 14, 2013, at 08:29 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote: On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 4:46 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Christian, I leave it up to the developers to make those decisions. Whatever tools help the project to move forward best for both the immediate efforts and the long-term managing of the brand are the right tools. Knowing that GitHub is a community that attracts many leading edge developers in its own right, having at least a mirror of the code in that environment certainly can't hurt. Sure, its about the project community to decide. That being said, one needs to know that GitHub is a tool, but the ASF is more than just that. The ASF is a Foundation which protects you (as a developer) and the project from legal problems. The whole ASF is a big community. GitHub is a set of tools, and the people forking and pull-requesting there are not necessary a community (of course they can become one). Still, the legal umbrella is non-existent there, except you build it up on your own. There are lot more of differences between a place like GitHub and the ASF. For example, GitHub is a company which hosts your code. In most cases you have no chance to join the board or influence company decisions. At the ASF you can become a member - or lets say shareholder - of the foundation. You can join the board (if elected) and have an influence as member. The ASF of course requires a few things to successfully protect people/projects. One of them is a canonical hosted scm. A mirror to GitHub is of course possible and never the problem. From ASF view it would be a problem to use GitHub as main scm. If there are more questions on exactly these things, I can offer to join a Google Hangout and of course will try to answer all questions by mailing list. Upayavira has huge knowledge what the ASF offers too. Cheers Christian Thanks. You mentioned that the code has to be first committed to the apache repositories for legal reasons. What exactly are the requirements there? Is it bad if I have my own local mirror of the project and commit there? (Technically, my local machine is a private mirror that gets my commits first). Are the problems around public distribution? Does it then also matter where code review happens? I ask because while I don't have a problem with an apache git repository being the ultimate source of truth, I also quite like github's pull requests as a system for code reviews. I'm not interested in taking the project away from apache. I actually think the community ownership model works well for this project. Github works much better with a benevolent dictator. But that said, I'd like to know what tools we can and can't use. -J
Re: Adding experiments into the repository
At this point, **all** code should be exempt from code review. To explain in more detail, there's two models a project can follow: = review then commit = Mature communities usually follow this, when there's substantial risk in making chances. Wave is way to young for this, IMO. = commit then review = This is what I'm used to. Make a commit, and have other developers watch the commit list. They can object on the dev list if they see something they don't like, but the basic assumption is that, if you have commit rights, we trust you. So I would say, yeah, create a sandbox area in SVN. Have as many play areas as folks want. Those can be clones of the WIAB code, or can be completely fresh directories. As a start, I'd say, anyone who'd like to participate in such experiments should submit an ICLA to Apache. This is a legal document stating that you give a license to Apache to the code that you provide (but you still retain copyright). See here: http://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide.html#cla Whilst this doesn't grant you commit rights to the repo, it is certainly a prerequisite, and will ease the inclusion of your code into the repository. If you do send your ICLA as suggested in the above link, feel free to mail me privately and I will track its arrival. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 14, 2013, at 08:49 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote: Following from Michael MacFadden's suggestion to put related (hopefully integrated) technologies into the same wave repository, I propose adding an experiments directory into SVN. (Do we vote on this or something, or should I just do it?) Experimental code should be exempt from code review, although there should be an expectation that unused experimental code may be cleaned up if it isn't actively worked on for more than 3 months or so. I want a place where we can collaboratively iterate on fresh ideas design. We want to produce things that are eventually useful to the wave project. I think we should place experiments outside of the trunk directory, here: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/experiments Thoughts? -J
Re: Adding experiments into the repository
In which case, Joseph should send in an ICLA, and we can get the account sorted. Thx for spotting Yuri. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 14, 2013, at 11:39 PM, Yuri Z wrote: By the way Joseph, your name is on the list of committers for the Apache Wave http://incubator.apache.org/wave/people.html , You might want to make request to the infra to claim a username so you will be able to handle the experimental related issues by yourself. On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: At this point, **all** code should be exempt from code review. To explain in more detail, there's two models a project can follow: = review then commit = Mature communities usually follow this, when there's substantial risk in making chances. Wave is way to young for this, IMO. = commit then review = This is what I'm used to. Make a commit, and have other developers watch the commit list. They can object on the dev list if they see something they don't like, but the basic assumption is that, if you have commit rights, we trust you. So I would say, yeah, create a sandbox area in SVN. Have as many play areas as folks want. Those can be clones of the WIAB code, or can be completely fresh directories. As a start, I'd say, anyone who'd like to participate in such experiments should submit an ICLA to Apache. This is a legal document stating that you give a license to Apache to the code that you provide (but you still retain copyright). See here: http://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide.html#cla Whilst this doesn't grant you commit rights to the repo, it is certainly a prerequisite, and will ease the inclusion of your code into the repository. If you do send your ICLA as suggested in the above link, feel free to mail me privately and I will track its arrival. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 14, 2013, at 08:49 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote: Following from Michael MacFadden's suggestion to put related (hopefully integrated) technologies into the same wave repository, I propose adding an experiments directory into SVN. (Do we vote on this or something, or should I just do it?) Experimental code should be exempt from code review, although there should be an expectation that unused experimental code may be cleaned up if it isn't actively worked on for more than 3 months or so. I want a place where we can collaboratively iterate on fresh ideas design. We want to produce things that are eventually useful to the wave project. I think we should place experiments outside of the trunk directory, here: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/experiments Thoughts? -J
Re: [VOTE RESULT] (was: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC3)
Ali, I think we should push this through to the incubator general list now. I don't think there's a huge benefit in waiting anymore. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 12, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Ali Lown wrote: Still here, still following and helping out in the background when Googley things arrive (hence the reason why I abstain my vote, great work though!) Ok. I hadn't seen you for a while, so I wasn't sure of your status... Is that a +0 though? (If so, please post on the VOTE thread). :) Ali
Re: A Call To Developers
All I can say is, well said. We need to consider Wave as a young project - one that really doesn't yet have anything set in stone. I've heard Apache described as a 'do-ocracy', that is, he who does, decides. If there's an approach you think would be good, start coding, show us your work (stick it on Github or somewhere), and we can see about getting it a place in the Wave repo itself. In the end, what the Wave project exists for is to release products. To release products, we need real code. Let's get started with some experiments that, if successful, can eventually morph into real products. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 12, 2013, at 09:04 PM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: I have been working on a geolocation (/augmented reality) specific Wave project: arwave.org I am not sure how suitable this is. Its effectively a client that I (badly) want to be compatible with any standard wave server. As there was no standard client/server protocol for the last few years, I gave up, and instead made it work with XMPP/jabber chat. Obviously, losing persistency along the way and crippling its usefulness. Would this project fit under the apache wave umbrella? I still want to make it a wave server client - but untill the servers have the protocol in place to allow that, it will be effectively just a xmpp client for a specific use. -Thomas Wrobel. ps. Of course, I am happy to help out any wave developments I am skilled enough to do anyway. On 12 June 2013 21:48, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: Wavers, It has become clear that there a MANY more people are interested in Wave that we had previously thought. There recent explosion of interest is fantastic. However, what I am seeing is that the wave community is splintered and fragmented. There are a lot of people who have been doing development work on wave related concepts like OT, federation, etc outside of Apache Wave. Maybe they thought they were not welcome. Maybe they though the existing code base was headed in the wrong direction. Maybe they thought we would not be open to their project ideas. Who knows. Whatever the reason, there have been many side projects all over the web some how related to wave. Either inspired by wave, or developed to explore some alternative to the way wave did something. I would like to try to unite these efforts in to one umbrella project. From a code base perspective, we can create multiple folders in our repository were proof of concepts and side projects can exist along side WiaB. If this drives activity and interest to Apache Wave, then fantastic. Sure we would love to have 20 people jump in and help us with the current issues directly in WiaB. If people want to do that, by all means PLEASE HELP. But if that is not what you are interested in, but you ARE interested in some other path forward, please join our community. Please use Apache Wave as your home to develop Wave technology. Be it OT, Clients, Protocols, what have you. There is nothing that says the WiaB in its current form has to be the only product produced by this project. We could have a generic core OT Engine / API that powers wave. We could have the core server that leverages this engine. We could have multiple clients, etc. I specifically named the project Apache Wave and not Apache Wave in a Box, because the vision was the eventually this project would become the home of a whole ecosystem of wave related things. If there is one current truth, it is that none of our groups has been independently successful in developing and distributing a widely used and adopted OT based collaboration project. I think together we can be more successful than apart. Yes that means we have to hash things out on the mailing list occasionally, but I think we are all open to input from anyone. If we can create a place for side projects, then perhaps people will be more free to bring their ideas and efforts here. To that end, I would put a call out to people who are currently working on related projects to officially joint the Apache Wave community. Contribute some code, whatever that may be. Help start a proof of concept for an OT Engine, work on the client server protocol, whatever you want to do, come do it here. Together we can keep our collective momentum. Become a committer here. We need you. Sincere Regards, ~Michael
Re: Advantages of P2P messaging?
For the uninitiated, what is OT? Upayavira On Mon, Jun 10, 2013, at 09:53 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: Dave, Thanks for your thoughts. A few things to consider. There is a distinction between P2P messaging and P2P OT. A system could reasonable have a client server messaging architecture where the server is a hub and the clients are spokes. All messages from one client flow through the server to get to other clients. However, even in this arrangement OT can still happen in a P2P mode. If the server is simply acting as the messaging relay and doing no OT, then the OT can happen at the clients. Googles Wave leverages client-server messaging AND client-server OT. That is the server is participating in the OT. OT only happens in paris between the client and the server. In terms of mobile devices, unless we are talking about some form of bluetooth or local wifi, then it is likely that messaging with be client server. However, how OT happens is up for debate. There are pros and cons to doing OT in a client-server or P2P manner. Googles view was that if you have potentially hundreds or thousands of collaborators, then in a P2P mode you wind up with state vectors, vector clocks, or context vectors that are just to large. Each peer has to track the state of each other client. Operations typically have a context vector attached to them. In this case you have context vectors, and state tables that grow out of hand. Google chose to avoid this by using a client server OT model. I think that saying that the wave algorithm doesn't satisfy TP2 is a bit inaccurate. I believe it does satisfy TP2 in that three clients can still make concurrent edits to the document state. The server simply chooses to canonically order these in order to ensure that TP2 is honored. One could argue that the wave algorithm satisfies TP2 by never letting the situation arise in the first place, but in my view this still satisfies the requirement. FYI, I have worked extensively with Wave's OT, other systems OT algorithms, and have been working closely with the researchers who are working OT right now. I think this is a very good discussion. One I can bring to the larger OT community if we so desire. ~Michael On 6/10/13 9:38 PM, Dave w...@glark.co.uk wrote: [John B - I wasn't sure where else it would be appropriate to ask this question, but please forward on anywhere you think it appropriate] There are many things about Wave and WIAB that I would like to see improved / changed, but based on my readings I've been content with the TP1 OT approach chosen by google (not that I'm even close to an expert) - even if the WIAB implementation would benefit from some love. But one of the things mentioned in the recent wave-forward hangout was the weakness in Wave's OT implementation for a required canonical version of a given wave (providing absolute ordering of changesets). Specifically, this effectively prevents 3 party P2P messaging where there isn't guaranteed to be that one canonical ordering. My understanding is that Joseph is playing with some alternative OT algorithms that are TP2, and therefore don't require arbitration of changeset order. This was specifically called out as an advantage to support P2P messaging and running the full stack on a phone. That got me thinking - why would you want to do that? What are the benefits of P2P messaging, and are there other reasons to need TP2? Most of the messaging and collaboration systems I could think of are client-server (some with federated servers) and Wave/WIAB support this with TP1. Most networked phone apps that I'm aware of are also client/server, and at first glance this seems a good thing - it makes addressing easier and avoids issues with intermittent connectivity. The ability to have a simple wavelike server (and detached clients) I suspect I'm missing something, and I wondered if I'm alone? My understanding is that technical interop between the various wave-like communities will need us to use the same OT alogrithm (eventually), so clarity on the pros/cons of keeping or changing the wave OT approach would be a good first step in that direction! Dave
Re: Urgent, Wavers! Reporting time TODAY
Download the zip, review apache documentation on making releases, and determine, to the best of your ability, whether this conforms to those release requirements. E.g do all files have license headers. Are NOTICE and LICENSE files correct, and so on. Your help here would be great. Even if there are issues that you don't spot, you will be developing an understanding of Apache licensing requirements, a knowledge that will serve the Wave project well over time, as you will be able to vet future releases too, which again will be a great service. Upayavira On Sun, Jun 9, 2013, at 02:43 AM, John Blossom wrote: Not sure what needs to be done but let me know if I can help. J On Jun 8, 2013 3:02 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, please see below - changing the subject for better visibility. Cheers Christian -- Forwarded message -- From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Jun 2013 ([ppmc]) To: wave-dev@incubator.apache.org This needs to be done today. Any volunteers? It would be a shame to miss a report at a point when the project is looking up. I'd say this doesn't need to be done by a committer. Someone who is prepared to review other reports on the below mentioned wiki page and write something similar. Note, the report should be about community issues not code, so nearly complete release and increased engagement are the two main issues I'd mention. The email-wave stuff could be useful to raise, although I'd be okay leaving it a while also. Anyone volunteering? Upayavira On Sat, Jun 1, 2013, at 08:07 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: OK, I agree the date is pretty close to now, but hopefully Wave can provide a report soon. Are there any volunteers? On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Marvin no-re...@apache.org wrote: Dear podling, This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to prepare your quarterly board report. The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 19 June 2013, 10:30:00:00 PST. The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and submission (Wed, Jun 5th). Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the incubator PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board meeting. Thanks, The Apache Incubator PMC Submitting your Report -- Your report should contain the following: * Your project name * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of the project or necessarily of its field * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move towards graduation. * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be aware of * How has the community developed since the last report * How has the project developed since the last report. This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/June2013 Note: This manually populated. You may need to wait a little before this page is created from a template. Mentors --- Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms for the Incubator PMC. Incubator PMC -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC3
+0 This is an unusual vote for me which I must explain. For non-incubator PMC members, your vote says you've done your best, which is plenty good enough. For me as an incubator PMC member, I would be stating that I have reviewed it according to the release standards which, due to insufficient knowledge I cannot do. Therefore I am voting +0 to say I am supportive of the effort that has been done here, believe the right things to have been done, but would rather defer to a more knowledgable Incubator PMC member when it comes to a formal vote. Fell free to include the above sentence in the vote summary. I will also make this point on the incubator vote thread when it comes. Perhaps this vote is the one where *I* get up to speed on Apache licensing. Upayavira On Thu, Jun 6, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: +1 (IPMC) I didn't find anything else so far which is problematic. My guess is, other IPMC members will find something (first releases are worst) I checked on licenses, signatures, sha and looked around. I didn't do technical checks, like running the server or so. My take on pre 1.0 version is, they are unstable. So I would not block a release when something crashes or so. Cheers Christian On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Ali Lown a...@apache.org wrote: Lets try again with this then... Wave 0.4 RC3 is available for review here: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc3/ This is a build from the subversion tag wave-0.4-rc3 at: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/tags/ A summary can be found in the RELEASE-NOTES at: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc3/RELEASE-NOTES and included in the tarballs. Votes, please. This vote will close at 2000 GMT 8-June 2013. [ ] +1 Release these artifacts [ ] +0 OK, but... [ ] -0OK, but really should fix... [ ] -1I oppose this release because... Thanks. Ali --- The 'minor note' again for those still confused: Only votes from the members of the PMC are binding, however votes from other committers, users, and contributors are welcomed. If your vote is negative, please leave a comment explaining clearly why. Refer to https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html for more information on this process. -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Jun 2013 ([ppmc])
This needs to be done today. Any volunteers? It would be a shame to miss a report at a point when the project is looking up. I'd say this doesn't need to be done by a committer. Someone who is prepared to review other reports on the below mentioned wiki page and write something similar. Note, the report should be about community issues not code, so nearly complete release and increased engagement are the two main issues I'd mention. The email-wave stuff could be useful to raise, although I'd be okay leaving it a while also. Anyone volunteering? Upayavira On Sat, Jun 1, 2013, at 08:07 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: OK, I agree the date is pretty close to now, but hopefully Wave can provide a report soon. Are there any volunteers? On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Marvin no-re...@apache.org wrote: Dear podling, This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to prepare your quarterly board report. The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 19 June 2013, 10:30:00:00 PST. The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and submission (Wed, Jun 5th). Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the incubator PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board meeting. Thanks, The Apache Incubator PMC Submitting your Report -- Your report should contain the following: * Your project name * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of the project or necessarily of its field * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move towards graduation. * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be aware of * How has the community developed since the last report * How has the project developed since the last report. This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/June2013 Note: This manually populated. You may need to wait a little before this page is created from a template. Mentors --- Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms for the Incubator PMC. Incubator PMC -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Urgent, Wavers! Reporting time TODAY
I've 'signed' it as mentor. Thanks all! Upayavira On Sat, Jun 8, 2013, at 11:38 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Very good report folks, thanks for filling it so quickly. On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Yuri, Thanks for that. That blurb was already in the report, so perhaps the template needs to be updated. (Wherever that is kept). Ali On 8 June 2013 11:31, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Ali II updated the Wave description to the following: Wave is rich, web-based, distributed, collaboration platform that allows users to interact in near real time. The wave platform includes a web-based user interface containing an rich-text. The system is extendable though widgets, robots, and editor doodads. The Wave In a Box implementation is developed in java using a variety of web technologies such as Web Sockets, Java Script, GWT, and supported by an operational transform based conflict resolution algorithm. On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Max pane your...@gmail.com wrote: Am in to help On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Thanks for this reminder. I deliberately, left the report to do after the automated reminder so that somebody else could do some work this month... :) As nobody did so, I have now filled in a report. Ali On 8 June 2013 08:01, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, please see below - changing the subject for better visibility. Cheers Christian -- Forwarded message -- From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Jun 2013 ([ppmc]) To: wave-dev@incubator.apache.org This needs to be done today. Any volunteers? It would be a shame to miss a report at a point when the project is looking up. I'd say this doesn't need to be done by a committer. Someone who is prepared to review other reports on the below mentioned wiki page and write something similar. Note, the report should be about community issues not code, so nearly complete release and increased engagement are the two main issues I'd mention. The email-wave stuff could be useful to raise, although I'd be okay leaving it a while also. Anyone volunteering? Upayavira On Sat, Jun 1, 2013, at 08:07 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: OK, I agree the date is pretty close to now, but hopefully Wave can provide a report soon. Are there any volunteers? On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Marvin no-re...@apache.org wrote: Dear podling, This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to prepare your quarterly board report. The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 19 June 2013, 10:30:00:00 PST. The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and submission (Wed, Jun 5th). Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the incubator PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board meeting. Thanks, The Apache Incubator PMC Submitting your Report -- Your report should contain the following: * Your project name * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of the project or necessarily of its field * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move towards graduation. * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be aware of * How has the community developed since the last report * How has the project developed since the last report. This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/June2013 Note: This manually populated. You may need to wait a little before this page is created from a template. Mentors --- Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms for the Incubator PMC. Incubator PMC -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de -- http://www.grobmeier.de https
Re: [VOTE RESULT] (was: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC3)
Yes, let's get a few more reviews here before we forward it. As I said, I'm gonna abstain from voting because it is not an area of expertise I have. I may do a review and vote later. Upayavira On Sat, Jun 8, 2013, at 09:29 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Hey mate, you have missed the other +1 votes :-) There was a +1 from Angus Turner, Joseph Gentle and I guess yourself. Although only PMC (in case of incubator IPMC) votes are binding, the community / committer votes are extremly important to count. It shows more people have tested the release and are willing to sign its good. It shows the community is consisting of more than - me. Actually I am a bit concerned the lots of other committers have not voted: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave I understand, when community focused members of this team are not voting on technical details. But there are also other committers here he should have at least looked at this. Anyway, it's of course possible to pass this on to the IPMC, just make sure you include yourself and the others in the vote. I am pretty sure IPMC members will ask why nobody else voted on the release. On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Ali Lown a...@apache.org wrote: The result of the voting is: +1 votes: 1 Christian Grobmeier (binding) https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-dev/201306.mbox/%3CCAPFNckhyJGt3ttmLQ6g0WfxPJYbjHzQqbg%3Dx3exDA34G6oY8wg%40mail.gmail.com%3E 0 votes: 0 -1 votes: 0 I shall now post to the Incubator PMC for a vote there to see if we can get this released. Ali -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: [VOTE RESULT] (was: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC3)
On Sat, Jun 8, 2013, at 09:49 PM, Ali Lown wrote: Ok. I shall wait for a few more days. (I couldn't post on the incubator list for a few more hours anyway, because I have to wait for the mail archives to catch up). Regarding how to get more committers to vote: I am not sure. I haven't seen many of them at all over my last few years following the list. Those that *are* active? Yuri? Maybe Michael? Upayavira
Re: Community mailing list?
Creating new mailing lists divides communities and should therefore be done with caution. This community was, until recently, extremely quiet. I'm open to the idea of another list, but I want to see that it will have the right effect, and not unnecessarily divide an already small community. Really, the mission that the ASF has taken on is that of the development of WIAB. All other goals are more amorphous, and it will take time to see what shape they will take and how they might fit here. If folks want it, can we start by using message subjects, eg [DEV] or [GENERAL] as subject prefixes? Thx, Upayavira On Thu, Jun 6, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Ed - 0x1b, Inc. wrote: On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 3:23 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: How about platform@ ? On Jun 5, 2013 4:59 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Except, this isn't for users of WIAB, it is for general discussion about Wave, so user@ doesn't really fit. There are other general@ lists, so there's precedence there. your trying to fit the wrong way - do what the other projects have done so that the unfamiliar face less of a barrier to enter into the world of Wave. The other issue though, is that mailing lists work when there's a shared project to discuss. I'm not yet clear what the shared project is that would be discussed on the general@ list - what the shared goal would be. how about how one uses Wave vs Conversations about Developing Wave softwares The whole idea is to weed the dev@ list of OT threads by giving them a place to be. Just do it and see what shows up. it will be good. I'd say let's continue the conversations for a while longer, and when the time comes, I can create the list (I have the necessary karma). Upayavira thanks On Wed, Jun 5, 2013, at 08:51 PM, Ed - 0x1b, Inc. wrote: On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Following on from the talk, if we intend to develop Apache Wave as an end-product focused project, we should probably migrate talks of 'visions' and 'community' to a separate mailing list from to allow wave-dev to be kept as a developer list related to work on the code-base and documentation. How about would people feel about a wave-general list for the non-dev focused discussions? Sure, we can give it a try. Other apache projects usually have wave-user@ (later to be renamed to u...@wave.apache.org) +1 General would be ok too. But I think user would be better, as it follows old patterns. If there is a need to for example discuss the protocol later and the users list is getting to much traffic it could be separated once more. Ali -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Community mailing list?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013, at 08:52 AM, Fleeky Flanco wrote: one thing that would be pretty sweet would be if you could subscribe to mailing lists but from your wave server, extra points if the way you do it is federating to the wiab.net server and subscribing to its email wave :) Get coding! That's the sort of thing that could bridge the email-wave gap and make Wave much more compelling. You can use it as a mail client before you reach the point where you have enough contacts on native Wave to communicate with directly. Upayavira
Re: Wave Logo
While a logo might be open source, trademark law will restrict what you can do with it. It is important to recognise that logos are kind of a special case in open source. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 5, 2013, at 02:23 PM, John Blossom wrote: Copyright is claimed for the logo by Google but the word Wave is too generic and used too widely to be likely to be trademarked in association with the logo. The main concern that I have is that Apache should ensure a more clear ownership of the logo. But if it is used only on open source projects, then by definition CC should be fine for now anyway. On Jun 4, 2013 3:04 PM, Alfredo Abambres alfredoabamb...@gmail.com wrote: Was the OpenWave logo submitted to the organization responsible for certification of TM or R in the US or any other country by Google or Apache? If not, then we cannot (legally) use the TM symbol or the trademark word. AFAIK, (and I don't know much) the logo was designed and set to use a CC attribution license. No legal registration happened, but I may be wrong about the registration. Anyhow, if that happened, then a legal document should be in someone's archive. Wave On. http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:10 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: That does seem to be the one that's referenced in the rights page. I am not sure where they stand in clarifying the rights ownership transfer with Google, but either way it seems to be the right one. All the best, John Blossom at 6:20 AM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Yep, I think we have rights only for the open wave logo. On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: I know for sure we have the rights for the Open Wave one, not sure about the wiab. I personally think we should go for the openwave, and can add the trademark to it if needed. Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Christian has raised the point that we need to attach 'Trademark' to the wave logo before we can release. We seem to be using a different logo in the project to the one on the website: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/branches/wave-0.4-release/war/static/logo.png https://incubator.apache.org/wave/images/OpenWaveLogo.png Which of these should we be using going forward? (Presumably the Open Wave logo?) (Do we have rights over the wave-in-a-box one?) Comments? Ali
Re: Community mailing list?
Except, this isn't for users of WIAB, it is for general discussion about Wave, so user@ doesn't really fit. There are other general@ lists, so there's precedence there. The other issue though, is that mailing lists work when there's a shared project to discuss. I'm not yet clear what the shared project is that would be discussed on the general@ list - what the shared goal would be. I'd say let's continue the conversations for a while longer, and when the time comes, I can create the list (I have the necessary karma). Upayavira On Wed, Jun 5, 2013, at 08:51 PM, Ed - 0x1b, Inc. wrote: On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Following on from the talk, if we intend to develop Apache Wave as an end-product focused project, we should probably migrate talks of 'visions' and 'community' to a separate mailing list from to allow wave-dev to be kept as a developer list related to work on the code-base and documentation. How about would people feel about a wave-general list for the non-dev focused discussions? Sure, we can give it a try. Other apache projects usually have wave-user@ (later to be renamed to u...@wave.apache.org) +1 General would be ok too. But I think user would be better, as it follows old patterns. If there is a need to for example discuss the protocol later and the users list is getting to much traffic it could be separated once more. Ali -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Invitation to On-Air Hangout
I was able to connect, but my 3g connection at the time wasn't sufficient it seems. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 5, 2013, at 06:40 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: Thanks to all who joined/participated the Wave:Forward Ep. 1 IMO, it was far better than I expected it to happen for a 1st episode. Ali and Christian were amazing and very helpful. For those who watched and sent comments and questions another huge thanks. You can follow up on the backchannels shared above by Zachary. Wave Lives! http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Zachary “Gamer_Z.” Yaro zmy...@gmail.comwrote: You can request access to the hangout on the G+ eventhttps://plus.google.com/events/cboctmpnt5503f0km2b0s5iritk, wave https://rizzoma.com/topic/b663e913fedf793a5e775c9b202c14d1, or YouTube comments http://www.youtube.com/user/TheWaveWatchers?v=wZElFF9zGpI. —Zachary “Gamer_Z.” Yaro On 5 June 2013 12:29, Ryan Hill r...@zndx.org wrote: Same. It seems like an invite-only affair from what I can see. On Jun 5, 2013 10:27 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: hello folks, i am around, but i cannot join somehow. Cheers On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Alfredo Abambres alfredoabamb...@gmail.com wrote: Christian: Thank you. John (he will be the HoA moderator) knows a bit more of what will or not be asked, but since this is an Apache project, there will probably be some questions about the ASF, how it works and why to bet on communities within an Apache environment is a good thing. Audience participants may also have questions about that... so, a slot for you may be the right thing to do. --- IMPORTANT recommendations to Apache Wave community guest speakers: Since is the Wave Watchers official account that will probably invite us, to ensure that everything works fine, you advisable that you follow their G+ page: https://plus.google.com/117473852478348637128/ https://plus.google.com/117473852478348637128/posts Invitations will start to be sent 15 to 30 minutes before the event goes live. The Live broadcasting starts at 17:00 GMT+1 (London time). More info could be found at the Events page: https://plus.google.com/events/cboctmpnt5503f0km2b0s5iritk During the day and prior to the event, more info will be added to that page and other backchannels (including the http://www.youtube.com/TheWaveWatcherschannel). History on the makes, don't you think? :-) Wave On. PS: I'll personally be helping the team behind the event. So fire away if you need help or to know more how these things called Hangouts on Air and Events on Air work. Alfredo http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Alfredo, On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Alfredo Abambres alfredoabamb...@gmail.com wrote: John: Does anyone from the Apache Wave team already confirmed the participation on the Hangouts on Air as a speakers? Christian: Will you join as a speaker? SPEAKERS of the Apache Wave community I would personally love to see/hear tomorrow: Besides Christian, I think Upayavira, Ali Lown (the person leading the release of 0.4 version) and Yuri Zelikov (the only maintainer I know of a *sort of* public WIAB instance http://waveinabox.net/) would be excellent representatives. I just can tell things on the ASF, but not really on Wave itself. Not sure if it makes sense to give a speaker slot to me. Anyway, chances are good I am there, and if there are questions on incubating, i might be able to answer them. Cheers http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 AM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just reminding folks of our On-Air Hangout tomorrow, if you have some time please join us for the discussion, event page at: https://plus.google.com/events/cboctmpnt5503f0km2b0s5iritk All the best, John Blossom email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 12:14 AM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, In celebration of the packaging of the Apache Wave 0.4 release
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC2
You can expect this release to take quite a few attempts. Let me explain a little of how the incubator works: The votes that 'count' are those of the Project Management Committee (PMC) responsible for the code base. In the case of a project in the Incubator, it is the Incubator PMC that vouches for it to the ASF. Therefore, for while project committer and other votes are really important, for the vote to pass it must have three +1 votes from incubator PMC members (on this list, that includes myself and Christian - so we would need to seek at least an additional vote for it to pass, by announcing the vote on gene...@incubator.apache.org). In one sense, releasing code is pretty easy - make a zip and ship it. At Apache, we add constraints about how a release is done, so that our users know what they can expect of it. The first release is therefore always the hardest, as it typically gets a lot of vetting, and goes through a lot of iterations - the vast majority of which have nothing to do with the actual code itself, but more to do with crossing the legal 't's. So expect some iterations. It is possible to assume that this is people just being difficult - please give us the benefit and let the process continue, and both this release will go out, and Wave will be set up to be able to make future releases much more easily, as all those 't's will still be crossed. Upayavira On Tue, Jun 4, 2013, at 08:09 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: I only counted 2 -1 and a lot of +1. How does the voting work? Does some of the two -1 has the ability veto decisions? http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, strange, I didn't receive the vote results... On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 9:41 PM, John Blossom - Shore Communications Inc. jblos...@shore.com wrote: Thanks, Ali, I look forward to going through the whitepapers materials, not as a gatekeeper but for my own interest and feedback. Best, John On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: I have put them in a whitepapers folder: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/whitepapers/ On 3 June 2013 22:15, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: On further inspection they contain all the stuff to build them as well, it really looks like they should be in a different repo. Or at least not included in a release. Not sure what we should do here... Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Ali, Maybe the easiest thing with the whitepaper and spec directories is to move them onto the wiki. seems a bit weird to have documentation like that included within a release... Once I've got them locally I'll submit a review request with those folders deleted... Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Alain Levesque albon...@wavewatchers.orgwrote: +1 since 2010 and it's never, never and did I mention never to late. Bravo! On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Looking back over this, in preparation of doing some more work on this. Comments/questions inlined: - Unusual CHANGES file: I usually see people adding issue numbers our of Jira The Wave Jira is fairly incomplete wrt. actual changes that have occurred. (I would estimate about half of the changes have Jira tickets, all recent ones have review board numbers, but early commits have neither). As such, I saw it mentioned in the Common's guide that the use of an 'svn log' instead was not strange. What do you suggest doing with this instead? - Example NOTICE file: http://www.apache.org/licenses/example-NOTICE.txt , Ok. I shall rewrite this to be in that style. Mockito is not mentioned with link as the others Will be added. :) - server-config.xml, jsongadgets.json, jaas.config no license. Maybe others too? Please utilize: http://creadur.apache.org/rat/ it's a great tool to check our licenses Rat looks useful. I will add a note to the release page and on the wiki, but I think it will be easiest to run standalone ATM. (Perhaps it can be made part of the mavenized process though). - request_codereview wrong license (Google Inc)? I am not even sure why this file hasn't been deleted yet. It was only used for the old Google code reviews, and doesn't work with review-board. (And has no reason to be made to work with it). I
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC2
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013, at 08:34 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: Upayavira: Thanks for your explanation. A doubt: if everybody else voted -1 and you got three +1 from PMC, the release would be approved? I would expect the -1 votes to be properly evaluated. If they are valid, I would expect those on the PMC to change their votes to -1 until they are resolved. But note, at this point, we're 90% concerned with legal matters, and 10% concerned with technical ones. So a technical concern might not be sufficient reason to hold back a release in this case, while that might be more reasonable in subsequent releases. Upayavira
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC2
Just to note, this is one area I can't really help in. I have negligible experience of release management, so it is good we have Christian on hand. Upayavira On Sat, Jun 1, 2013, at 08:07 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Cool Ali. Please let me know about questions. I am willing to answer them to my best knowledge and point you to links. On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Christian, Thanks for these comments. I highly doubted RC2 would get through, since nobody had been checking on my understanding of what I had read/seen. I shall wait for the period to expire as is (I think) customary with voting, but I will not be releasing RC2, based on these fairly fundamental issues. Comments from other PMC on anything else missed here are welcome. Lets see how RC3 fares :) (expect it on Wednesday/Thursday). Ali On 1 June 2013 12:29, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Ali, you made a great job with that. Even when I have some points we need to deal with, its fantastic that you pushed it forward. Please keep it on! Here is what I have seen so far: - Unusual CHANGES file: I usually see people adding issue numbers our of Jira - Example NOTICE file: http://www.apache.org/licenses/example-NOTICE.txt , Mockito is not mentioned with link as the others - server-config.xml, jsongadgets.json, jaas.config no license. Maybe others too? Please utilize: http://creadur.apache.org/rat/ it's a great tool to check our licenses - request_codereview wrong license (Google Inc)? - files in /spec - allowed to distribute? No License given, where do these files come from? - src folder: we usually use org.apache prefix. Not seen any classes with that - thirdparty: allowed to distribute? Check with compatible licenses. Full list whats working what not is here: http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-a - Wave Logo (/war) seems to miss TM symbol. Please check: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs.html - Whats the meaning of wave-0.4-release folder? - Whats the meaning of whitepapers folder? So far I am -1, mostly because I am concerned on the licensing things. Maybe we can shed some light on it. In any way, everybody is invited to help with these issues, committer or not. If you are lurking around and have an interest in help Wave surviving, then pleas see this: www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html And send in your patches!! :-) Thanks again Ali! Please note, the first releases are always the difficult. When Upayavira or I do not find anything, you can be sure somebody else from the IPMC finds something. Please consider this as educational. We need to make Apache Wave having some legal ground too, and thats how we make sure it is all good. So please everybody, keep motivation and help further with all the issues. If you do and bring out a release, I promise I will write a blog post on it on my personal blog which is usually well visited! That's my little contribution and hopefully motivating a bit. Cheers Christian PS: I haven't checked signatures yet and only looked at the src package On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Ali Lown a...@apache.org wrote: It is finally time to get a release out into the world. There has been a lot of things happen since the codebase was imported to Apache in Febuary 2011. Whilst work may not have always been as quick as we like, the last week has seen a significantly revived effort (and the introduction of many new names to the list) to the whole concept of Wave. As such, I would like to release Wave 0.4 to the world. Wave 0.4 RC2 is available for review here: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc2/ This is a build from the subversion tag wave-0.4-rc2 at: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/tags/ A summary can be found in the RELEASE-NOTES at: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc2/RELEASE-NOTES and included in the tarballs. Votes, please. This vote will close at 2100 GMT 04-June 2013. [ ] +1 Release these artifacts [ ] +0 OK, but... [ ] -0OK, but really should fix... [ ] -1I oppose this release because... Thanks. Ali --- A minor note to those who recently joined the list: Only votes from the members of the PMC are binding, however votes from other committers, users, and contributors are welcomed. If your vote is negative, please leave a comment explaining clearly why. Refer to https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html for more information on this process. -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de
