subject:"Re\: \[Wikidata\-l\] Sitelinks to Redirects"

Citiranje James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk:
 (1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any 
 way -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only 
 some extra sitelinks.
 
 So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's 
 own integrity.

Interestingly how no one mentions (or have I missed it?) what to me seems to be
the biggest problem, and that is the possibility that multiple Wikidata items
link to a single Wikipedia article.

If sitelinks to redirects are ever implemented, it would be imperative that it
is checked that no two redirects lead to the same place.



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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

Citiranje James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk:
 (1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any 
 way -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only 
 some extra sitelinks.
 
 So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's 
 own integrity.

Interestingly how no one mentions (or have I missed it?) what to me seems to be
the biggest problem, and that is the possibility that multiple Wikidata items
link to a single Wikipedia article.

If sitelinks to redirects are ever implemented, it would be imperative that it
is checked that no two redirects lead to the same place.



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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-22 Thread James Heald


On 22/10/2014 14:23, Smolenski Nikola wrote:

Citiranje James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk:

(1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any
way -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only
some extra sitelinks.

So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's
own integrity.


Interestingly how no one mentions (or have I missed it?) what to me seems to be
the biggest problem, and that is the possibility that multiple Wikidata items
link to a single Wikipedia article.

If sitelinks to redirects are ever implemented, it would be imperative that it
is checked that no two redirects lead to the same place.


It's no problem if multiple redirects link to the same place.

For example, on en-wiki, we have
   Luke Havell (redirect)-   Havell family
   Robert Havell (redirect)  -   Havell family
   Daniel Havell (redirect)  -   Havell family
etc

It's no problem if we have different items
   Q(Luke Havell)   -   Luke Havell (redirect)
   Q(Robert Havell) -   Robert Havell (redirect)
   Q(Daniel Havell) -   Daniel Havell (redirect)

different items, for different people, sitelinked to different places on 
en-wiki, that happen to be redirects.



But one advantage of having this structure is that if somebody then 
changes Robert Havell into a full article, then Q(Robert Havell) is 
already pointing to the right place.


  -- James.


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-22 Thread James Heald


Gerard, I still don't see a problem.

If somebody wants to search on Reasonator, they can search on 
Reasonator, and they will get exactly the same Reasonator pages as 
before -- the only difference is that those Reasonator pages will 
include more links to relevant Wikipedia pages, with some of them badged 
as redirects.



As for Death of Alice Gross, I don't see the problem there either.

Your complaint appears to be that at the moment people directly sitelink 
Q(Alice Gross) to Death of Alice Gross, causing all sorts of 
mismatches and confusions.


Allowing sitelinks to redirects would actually *solve* this issue, 
because then people could site-link Q(Alice Gross) to Alice Gross (a 
redirect).


Q(Alice Gross) would then no longer be sitelinked to an article about an 
event; but instead would be sitelinked to a redirect.



Wouldn't that be a better state of affairs ?

  -- James.



On 22/10/2014 12:19, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I do not consider myself confused. I am speaking plain language.

The article: Death of Alice Gross has information about a living person
while it is NOT a living person. As it is, current practices like with the
Death of Alice Gross are problematic already enough.

When you want redirects, you make the situation worse because you will want
to include many more people who go by a same name. Many of them are already
known to Wikidata. We do not need redirects in Wikipedia to link to them .
What we need is integrated search where results from Wikidata and Wikipedia
are mixed in order to provide the best result. When there is no article
about someone or something, we  can provide a reasonator kinda screen with
information in English. It will refer to all kind of related information
and by having this information in Wikidata, this information is available
to any and all other languages as well.

The point is very much that any Wikipedia does not include all the
information we know about. We know in Wikidata about many more items than
Wikipedia has articles for. We can express this information in a much more
informative way than by having redirects. The examples of redirects given
were really not informative. It is not possible to associate categories and
templates in a way that makes them useful in any other way. It positively
destroys the usability of information from Wikipedia in this way.

For what ?

We can and should do better. It starts by considering all options. Text is
no longer the only game in town.
Thanks,
   GerardM


On 22 October 2014 10:03, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


Gerard, you seem confused.

(1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any way
-- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only some extra
sitelinks.

So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's own
integrity.

In particular, there would be no change at all to what Reasonator would be
showing, apart from a few extra badged sitelinks.


(2) You seem to be worried that Wikidata would pick up and import the
categories of the article that the redirect redirects to.

But there's no obvious reason why this should happen.  It would not be
those articles that Wikidata would sitelink to, but the redirects.  So it
would be the categories (if any) of the redirect that would be relevant.

Similarly, it would not be the item sitelinked to the redirect that any
template on the article that was the target of the redirect would compare
itself with -- the target article would have its own item, just as it does
today; so just as it is today, that is the item that any templates on that
article would compare themselves to; or that any data migration would load
data into -- just exactly the same as it is today.

Death of Alice Gross is not the article about Alice Gross.

But this is not the article that would be sitelinked to Alice Gross.

Instead Alice Gross (a redirect) is the article that would be sitelinked
to Alice Gross.

So none of the problems you foresee should occur.


(3)  Reasonator is great.  But ultimately, Reasonator and Wikidata can
only give a summary of the facts.

In cases like Daniel Havell, and the question of his exact relationship to
other members of the Havell family, Wikidata/Reasonator can note that
sources disagree.  Wikidata/Reasonator can identify a preferred value. But
it is harder for them to present the context as to *why* that value is
preferred, in the way that can be done in continuous free text.

It is good to make Wikidata/Reasonator as comprehensive as possible; but
there is added value in having the ecosystem of text Wikipedia connected to
them.


(4)  One additional point is that by tracking the redirects, specifically
by adding a property noting what items an item may redirect to in different
languages, we actually improve Wikidata.

* We add to the related items that Wikidata can display.

* We make it possible to ask whether the item can be connected to these
new additional 'related items'

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

Citiranje James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk:
 On 22/10/2014 14:23, Smolenski Nikola wrote:
  Citiranje James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk:
  (1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any
  way -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only
  some extra sitelinks.
 
  So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's
  own integrity.
 
  Interestingly how no one mentions (or have I missed it?) what to me seems
 to be
  the biggest problem, and that is the possibility that multiple Wikidata
 items
  link to a single Wikipedia article.
 
  If sitelinks to redirects are ever implemented, it would be imperative that
 it
  is checked that no two redirects lead to the same place.
 
 It's no problem if multiple redirects link to the same place.
 
 For example, on en-wiki, we have
 Luke Havell (redirect)-   Havell family
 Robert Havell (redirect)  -   Havell family
 Daniel Havell (redirect)  -   Havell family
 etc
 
 It's no problem if we have different items
 Q(Luke Havell)   -   Luke Havell (redirect)
 Q(Robert Havell) -   Robert Havell (redirect)
 Q(Daniel Havell) -   Daniel Havell (redirect)
 
 different items, for different people, sitelinked to different places on 
 en-wiki, that happen to be redirects.

All right, that may not be a big problem. However, it would be a big problem if
we have:

Q(Coat of Arms of Novi Sad) - Coat of Arms of Novi Sad - Novi Sad
Q(something) - Coat of arms of Novi Sad - Novi Sad
Q(something) - Coat of arms of novi sad - Novi Sad



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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-22 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
FORGET ABOUT REASONATOR, FORGET ABOUT WIKIPEDIA, FORGET ABOUT WIKIDATA

It is about sharing information. That is what this is all about. The
information is NOT in Wikipedia, only the data is in Wikidata,  there are
plenty examples of that. Redirects are something you come up with because
it completely focuses on Wikipedia while actually it is VERY much in the
way when you want to inform people.

You do not see the problem. You do not even understand why your solution
is imperfect, not even halfway sane. When you forget about Wikipedia for a
moment, you will agree that Wikidata has tons of data Wikipedia does not.
Consequently, it would make sense to provide our readers with information
when Wikipedia does not have it. Wikidata is NOT informative, it takes
something like Reasonator to make the data informative.

I do not want anything less for Wikipedia.

When we approach our customers with the sum of all the information we have
available to us, you will find that Wikidata knows about something like 50%
more subjects. It impacts everything from search results, categories, red
links and disambiguation pages.From such a perspective linking redirects
to Wikidata is an awful idea for all the reasons I presented.

Redirects will harm Wikidata, there is no doubt in my mind. There will be
not be much of a benefit.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 22 October 2014 15:58, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 Gerard, I still don't see a problem.

 If somebody wants to search on Reasonator, they can search on Reasonator,
 and they will get exactly the same Reasonator pages as before -- the only
 difference is that those Reasonator pages will include more links to
 relevant Wikipedia pages, with some of them badged as redirects.


 As for Death of Alice Gross, I don't see the problem there either.

 Your complaint appears to be that at the moment people directly sitelink
 Q(Alice Gross) to Death of Alice Gross, causing all sorts of mismatches
 and confusions.

 Allowing sitelinks to redirects would actually *solve* this issue, because
 then people could site-link Q(Alice Gross) to Alice Gross (a redirect).

 Q(Alice Gross) would then no longer be sitelinked to an article about an
 event; but instead would be sitelinked to a redirect.


 Wouldn't that be a better state of affairs ?

   -- James.




 On 22/10/2014 12:19, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 I do not consider myself confused. I am speaking plain language.

 The article: Death of Alice Gross has information about a living person
 while it is NOT a living person. As it is, current practices like with the
 Death of Alice Gross are problematic already enough.

 When you want redirects, you make the situation worse because you will
 want
 to include many more people who go by a same name. Many of them are
 already
 known to Wikidata. We do not need redirects in Wikipedia to link to them .
 What we need is integrated search where results from Wikidata and
 Wikipedia
 are mixed in order to provide the best result. When there is no article
 about someone or something, we  can provide a reasonator kinda screen with
 information in English. It will refer to all kind of related information
 and by having this information in Wikidata, this information is available
 to any and all other languages as well.

 The point is very much that any Wikipedia does not include all the
 information we know about. We know in Wikidata about many more items than
 Wikipedia has articles for. We can express this information in a much more
 informative way than by having redirects. The examples of redirects given
 were really not informative. It is not possible to associate categories
 and
 templates in a way that makes them useful in any other way. It positively
 destroys the usability of information from Wikipedia in this way.

 For what ?

 We can and should do better. It starts by considering all options. Text is
 no longer the only game in town.
 Thanks,
GerardM


 On 22 October 2014 10:03, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Gerard, you seem confused.

 (1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any way
 -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only some
 extra
 sitelinks.

 So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's own
 integrity.

 In particular, there would be no change at all to what Reasonator would
 be
 showing, apart from a few extra badged sitelinks.


 (2) You seem to be worried that Wikidata would pick up and import the
 categories of the article that the redirect redirects to.

 But there's no obvious reason why this should happen.  It would not be
 those articles that Wikidata would sitelink to, but the redirects.  So it
 would be the categories (if any) of the redirect that would be relevant.

 Similarly, it would not be the item sitelinked to the redirect that any
 template on the article that was the target of the redirect would compare
 itself with -- the target article would have its own

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-22 Thread Derric Atzrott

 All right, that may not be a big problem. However, it would be a big problem 
 if
 we have:
 
 Q(Coat of Arms of Novi Sad) - Coat of Arms of Novi Sad - Novi Sad
 Q(something) - Coat of arms of Novi Sad - Novi Sad
 Q(something) - Coat of arms of novi sad - Novi Sad

This is an argument against redirects that I am able to understand.  I'm not
sure what the best solution for this is.  Perhaps we could lowercase the name of
the page and compare that to other items (similar to what we currently do to
ensure that no page is site-linked to more than one item).  There would be
exceptions, but we could warn them at least that they look like they are
linking to something that may already be linked to.

There are other redirects that are similar that may cause problems.  Items
with more than a single name that are conceptually the same thing might fall
into this.

I do think though that having something like what you describe happen is more
of a user error though.  Can you think of any possible Q(something) that would
work for their of those Q(somethings).  I.e. can you find a set of items where
this problem might actually manifest.  Coat of Arms of Novi Sad is a single
concept and I can't imagine that we are likely to find too many cases where
folks link it accurately to another Wikidata item.

Perhaps a report could be put together regularly of possible conflicts?

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

Citiranje Derric Atzrott datzr...@alizeepathology.com:
 I do think though that having something like what you describe happen is
 more
 of a user error though.  Can you think of any possible Q(something) that

Right now, since only linking to articles is allowed, and only one article can
be linked from anywhere on Wikidata, such errors are difficult to make, and
easy
to find and rectify. If linking to redirects is allowed, such errors will
become
easier to make, and more difficult to find and rectify.



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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
If this Jackson Douglas is the best that you can do, you destroyed the
argument that it has merit. Have a look at what Jackson Douglas brings you
in Reasonato[1]r  !! When you read the article, Mr Douglas is mentioned as
the spouse of Alex Borstein. That is all. Mr Douglas has articles in
several Wikipedias the information about his is much better in Wikidata [2]
anyway.

The question is therefore why Redirects why not use information from
Wikidata and present it in a Reasonator way??

Technically it is possible to have in stead of red links or redirects links
to Wikidata and have all the related information in that way available
about the subject as well. That is more informative then an obvious fudge
like redirects linking.
Thanks,
  GerardM


[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=Jackson+Douglas
[2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=330904


On 20 October 2014 23:40, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:

 On 19 October 2014 22:11, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

  No James, redirects do not have templates or categories

 Yes, they do.

 See, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:R_from_relative

 as used on, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jackson_Douglasredirect=no

 There are a whole bunch of such templates in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirect_templates

 --
 Andy Mabbett
 @pigsonthewing
 http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-21 Thread Andy Mabbett

On 21 October 2014 07:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 If this Jackson Douglas is the best that you can do, you destroyed the
 argument that it has merit.

Gerard,

I like you; but you're being a dick. Please desist.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
When a position is taken that is manifestly wrong, it is worse to desist.
Andy I like you too but calling someone a dick because he does not agree
with you and calls bullshit on the points taken, the examples supplied is
not in the best tradition of our projects.

Wikidata is NOT there to serve the English Wikipedia  at the expense of its
own integrity.  A wish has been formulated to support redirects by
WIkipedians while Wikidata has been EXPLICITLY designed NOT to support
redirects but more importantly parts of articles.

If a project does not have or want to have an article on a given subject,
Wikidata can provide information when used in combination with the
Reasonator.

Articles are about a subject and CONSEQUENTLY they should have categories
and info boxes that are in line with the subject of the article. The
ARTICLE 2014 ISIL beheading incidents
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q17985279 for instance is NOT about a human
and it should NOT have a category deaths in 2014 or any other information
that is particular to one person. The same is true for Death of Alice
Gross; it is NOT about Alice Gross. When an article is just text and
nobody cares about such consistencies, fine. However, you want articles
like this linked and someone else is to clean up such mess. This prevents
automated processes, it is bad practice and it is part of the same
practice/school of thought whereby we are to have redirects ...  Hell no!

Please reconsider your arguments and please do not be a dick yourself..
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 21 October 2014 21:21, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:

 On 21 October 2014 07:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  If this Jackson Douglas is the best that you can do, you destroyed the
  argument that it has merit.

 Gerard,

 I like you; but you're being a dick. Please desist.

 --
 Andy Mabbett
 @pigsonthewing
 http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-20 Thread Derric Atzrott

 With articles it is obvious. The subject matter that will be provided IS what
 is advertised. This is NOT the case with re-directs. They point to somewhere
 arbitrary and there is no way to ensure that the redirect remains consistent
 and fits the subject of the Wikidata item well.

I've seen Wikipedia articles change topics many times as well.  This is
particularly the case with the very kind of Wikipedia articles that would
have site-links to redirects in Wikidata.

I will admit though that this is a real problem.  We can not guarentee that
a redirect will continue to point to where we expect it to.  Redirects do get
broken from time to time as well.  I'm sure that a creative solution could
be thought up for this problem.  The first step would be marking redirects
when they are used, which I don't think anyone who wants redirects has any
problem with.

 Personally I doubt there is value in redirects.

Several others have pointed out the value in redirects.  They allow for you
to interwiki link articles together that otherwise would be impossible to
link together.  They help create this web of internationalised knowledge.
It helps link concepts and explainations together across language boundries.

 I find them very Wikipedia centric.

Isn't the whole concept of site-links in general Wikipedia centric?

 Given the examples given, there was no Wikidata in the first place.
 Harvesting redirects is an exceedingly bad idea that will pollute Wikidata
 with many items we should not have.

How does allowing site-links to redirects pollute wikidata with many items
we should not have?  This does not create new Wikidata items, it merely
allows us to efficiently site-link items that we already have.  For compound
concepts (does anyone have a better term for these?) we would already have an
item for the compound concept and its individual constituent concepts anyways.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-20 Thread Derric Atzrott

Just realized that I was not actually caught up but
replying to a message from a few days ago.  Sorry if
the discussion has moved on. .

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-20 Thread Andy Mabbett

On 19 October 2014 22:11, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 No James, redirects do not have templates or categories

Yes, they do.

See, for example:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:R_from_relative

as used on, for example:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jackson_Douglasredirect=no

There are a whole bunch of such templates in:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirect_templates

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-19 Thread David Cuenca

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
wrote:

 On 18 October 2014 08:15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  I think I requested P1472, I forgot all about it. It takes so long before

 The proposal was mine:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P1472


Actually there where two proposals, the one by Gerard was submitted in
January
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Sister_projects#Commons_Creator

Cheers,
Micru
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-19 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)


Marielle Volz, 16/10/2014 14:25:

Right now we could make a page attenborough brothers, put
onlyinclude tags around the intro to all three articles, and boom,
article! This would somewhat ameliorate the problem Andrew was talking
about with incomplete linkage across languages.


This argument works if the text meant for transclusion only is kept 
outside namespace 0, for instance in Template namespace (or Annex 
namespace, which some wikis already have, or similar). Otherwise the 
wiki would fill up with articles which are not real articles and users 
expecting articles would end up on blank pages.

Fragmentation however is not necessarily a good thing.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-19 Thread David Cuenca

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:54 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com
wrote:

 would it make sense to use wikidata for such tasks as well?


Wikidata already represents more granular information than an article, the
real problem is that the only way that we have to bind a piece of
information in Wikipedia to its Wikidata representation is through the
article name.
This is of course derived from the technological limitations of mediawiki
which treats each article as a blob of text.

On Wikisource we use Labeled Section Transclusion to define regions of a
mediawiki page that can be transcluded into other pages:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Labeled_Section_Transclusion

It is normally used with the following format:

## stable_section_identifier ##
some text here


In a way, it is like creating a local variable, since you assign an
identifier to a section that later on can be referred to regardless of the
changes in the text or in the title. I wonder if this is something that
could be adapted for Wikipedia in a way that users could mark article
sections with unique identifiers and then link those stable section
identifiers in Wikidata.

Cheers,
Micru
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-19 Thread James Heald

But Gerard templates and the categories used on the *redirect* will be 
specific to the redirect, so can draw quite happily from the item 
corresponding to the redirect.


And templates and categories used on the *article* will be specific to 
the article, so can draw quite happily from the item corresponding to 
the article.


I don't see where the problem is ?

  -- James.


On 19/10/2014 21:44, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I am very comfortable with items not having articles. I am very comfortable
with items that have one or more articles.

When you suggest that Wikidata items link to redirects, there are many
assumptions that break down. You cannot longer assume what the templates,
the categories are about. They are NOT necessarily about the article, they
may be about all kinds of everything.

The notion that Wikidata is subservient to Wikipedia can be considered but
WHAT Wikipedia and why should Wikidata be subservient to the English
Wikipedia ?

Some people representing the English Wikipedia make demands however,
Wikidata can provide services the English Wikipedia is not able to provide.
Things like providing search results based on information from Wikidata.
Why is this not even considered?
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 19 October 2014 18:54, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote:


david, i think you hit the major point here. at the end of the day it
is a document management problem, and the idea to recombine contents
is followed by some extensions, like books extension. would it make
sense to use wikidata for such tasks as well? i am not convinced that
it makes sense to go onto a sentence level, but paragraphs do imo make
sense. alone because e.g. the german wikipedia often stores an item in
a paragraph, what is stored in an article in the english wikipedia.
redirects are managed in de:wp, and there is no notion of storing
wrong redirects to cover typo's.

of course there are some wikidata purists, like jane and gerard, who
seem to be a little imprisoned in the original semantic mediawiki
notation that every entry needs to be an article. one may even
consider this opinion as correct in a greenfield approach where the
contents is created from scratch. but - unfortunately this is not the
case. wikidata came after wikipedia, and i consider it a fundamental
failure of wikidata to not address the issue.

rupert

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 1:03 AM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

As Wikidata grows this problem will become more significant. Using

redirects

doesn't seem a sustainable approach, but it will be hard to find better

ones

considering the number of people involved and the investment in the

current

platform.

The biggest challenge will be to convince Wikipedians to break free of

the

article box. There is no reason to limit oneself to articles when there
can be smaller building blocks that can be recombined in different

articles

with as much detail level as needed.

Maybe after Commons there should be also a Wikidata for Wikipedia

content,

where each article section or sentence is represented by an item that

can be

displayed in several articles or translated into different languages.

Cheers,
Micru


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Derric Atzrott
datzr...@alizeepathology.com wrote:


Thought I'd throw in my opinion on the matter.  After reading this

thread

I think that I agree with the folks who believe that Wikidata items

should

be able to specify a Wikipedia article that is a redirect as a sitelink

to

Wikipedia.

Its by no means an ideal solution, but I can't see any problems that it
causes and I do see problems that it fixes.  If there are problems /for
Wikidata/ that allowing Wikidata items to link to Wikipedia redirects
causes, I would be happy to hear them.  I imagine someone likely tried
to point some out, but I just didn't quite grasp them.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-19 Thread Jane Darnell

No James, redirects do not have templates or categories. Back to the case
of the African plum, I have created an English label for the Wikidata item,
so that when I seach the English Wikipedia and choose the option
everything, this Wikidata item will show up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchprofile=allsearch=african+plumfulltext=Search

If I had created a redirect in the English Wikipedia for African plum to
Plum, than of course that is what would come up. In this case the search
is giving me more precise information.

The problem with redirects when they aren't used as synonyms is that they
direct readers to something else that they might or might not recognize as
being something else. Within one project this may not be a problem, but
going from Korean into English or the other way around you could become
easily misled by the redirect rabbit-hole.

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

But Gerard templates and the categories used on the *redirect* will be
specific to the redirect, so can draw quite happily from the item
corresponding to the redirect.

And templates and categories used on the *article* will be specific to the
article, so can draw quite happily from the item corresponding to the
article.

I don't see where the problem is ?

-- James.

On 19/10/2014 21:44, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I am very comfortable with items not having articles. I am very
comfortable
with items that have one or more articles.

When you suggest that Wikidata items link to redirects, there are many
assumptions that break down. You cannot longer assume what the templates,
the categories are about. They are NOT necessarily about the article, they
may be about all kinds of everything.

The notion that Wikidata is subservient to Wikipedia can be considered but
WHAT Wikipedia and why should Wikidata be subservient to the English
Wikipedia ?

Some people representing the English Wikipedia make demands however,
Wikidata can provide services the English Wikipedia is not able to
provide.
Things like providing search results based on information from Wikidata.
Why is this not even considered?
Thanks,
GerardM

On 19 October 2014 18:54, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com
wrote:

david, i think you hit the major point here. at the end of the day it
is a document management problem, and the idea to recombine contents
is followed by some extensions, like books extension. would it make
sense to use wikidata for such tasks as well? i am not convinced that
it makes sense to go onto a sentence level, but paragraphs do imo make
sense. alone because e.g. the german wikipedia often stores an item in
a paragraph, what is stored in an article in the english wikipedia.
redirects are managed in de:wp, and there is no notion of storing
wrong redirects to cover typo's.

of course there are some wikidata purists, like jane and gerard, who
seem to be a little imprisoned in the original semantic mediawiki
notation that every entry needs to be an article. one may even
consider this opinion as correct in a greenfield approach where the
contents is created from scratch. but - unfortunately this is not the
case. wikidata came after wikipedia, and i consider it a fundamental
failure of wikidata to not address the issue.

rupert

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 1:03 AM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

As Wikidata grows this problem will become more significant. Using

redirects

doesn't seem a sustainable approach, but it will be hard to find better

ones

considering the number of people involved and the investment in the

current

platform.

The biggest challenge will be to convince Wikipedians to break free of

the

article box. There is no reason to limit oneself to articles when
there
can be smaller building blocks that can be recombined in different

articles

with as much detail level as needed.

Maybe after Commons there should be also a Wikidata for Wikipedia

content,

where each article section or sentence is represented by an item that

can be

displayed in several articles or translated into different languages.

Cheers,
Micru

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Derric Atzrott
datzr...@alizeepathology.com wrote:

Thought I'd throw in my opinion on the matter. After reading this

thread

I think that I agree with the folks who believe that Wikidata items

should

be able to specify a Wikipedia article that is a redirect as a sitelink

Wikipedia.

Its by no means an ideal solution, but I can't see any problems that it
causes and I do see problems that it fixes. If there are problems /for
Wikidata/ that allowing Wikidata items to link to Wikipedia redirects
causes, I would be happy to hear them. I imagine someone likely tried
to point some out, but I just didn't quite grasp them.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott

___
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
Just for arguments sake I have included the information about Mr Havell to
Wikidata. The result is certainly informative when seen from the
Reasonator. [1]

Any and all people known in the Creator template on Commons can and
should have a Wikidata entry. When you are serious about the Havell family,
you should make sure that all of them have full information in Wikidata as
well BEFORE you complain about redirects to the Haswell family.[2] from
English Wikipedia.

As I said before, your point of view is English Wikipedia oriented and this
is NOT English Wikipedia and it is NOT to promote the glory of English
Wikipedia. It is to share in the sum of all knowledge and THAT has more
dimensions than English only.
Thanks,
  GerardM


[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q18325155lang=en
[2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=havell

On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
 (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

 On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
 is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
 redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

 Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
 redirect.

 That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
 :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


 As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

 I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


 All best,

James.




 On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
 good
 thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
 centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
 page..
 We do support them. They are not redirects.
 - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
 takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

 Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
 Thanks,
GerardM

 On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Creating sitelinks to redirects:

 As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
 *  go to client wiki,
 *  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
 *  add a sitelink
 *  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

 Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
 barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


 Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
 perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
 recently at

 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
 all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

 which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


 But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
 redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
 roundabout process above).


 Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-18 Thread James Heald

On the other hand, Gerard, the full sum of knowledge about Daniel Havell 
has more dimensions that are presented by Reasonator only.


That's why it's useful for the Creator template to be able to contain a 
link to a written-out biography, and for it to be able to continue to do 
so even once its fields are drawn from Wikidata.


It's therefore not helpful for Wikidata to throw a pink error message 
and complain that Havell family already has an item, when somebody 
tries to link your new Q-number to the Daniel Havell redirect on :en:


It is valuable to throw a warning, and confirm with the user that this 
is really what they want to do; but if it *is* what the user really 
wants to do, they should be able to over-ride that warning, and link to 
the redirect anyway, perhaps also requiring the user to add a field to 
describe the nature of the redirect.


So I've added a sitelink to :en:, using the temporarily un-redirect 
trick, and also a P1472 to link back to the Commons creator template.


But it should be easier to do this without having to do the temporary 
un-redirect; and it would be good to record that the :en: sitelink is 
pointing to a redirect, and which item the target of that redirect 
corresponds to.


All best,

   James.


On 18/10/2014 07:01, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
Just for arguments sake I have included the information about Mr Havell to
Wikidata. The result is certainly informative when seen from the
Reasonator. [1]

Any and all people known in the Creator template on Commons can and
should have a Wikidata entry. When you are serious about the Havell family,
you should make sure that all of them have full information in Wikidata as
well BEFORE you complain about redirects to the Haswell family.[2] from
English Wikipedia.

As I said before, your point of view is English Wikipedia oriented and this
is NOT English Wikipedia and it is NOT to promote the glory of English
Wikipedia. It is to share in the sum of all knowledge and THAT has more
dimensions than English only.
Thanks,
   GerardM


[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q18325155lang=en
[2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=havell

On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
the item.
* It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
Hatmaker item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
Hatmaking

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
redirect.

That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:


Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
I think I requested P1472, I forgot all about it. It takes so long before
properties are created and I certainly forget about this one. Anyway,
thanks for adding that to the Wikidata item. I added Mr Havell with his Q
number to the Creatore template. I blogged about Mr Havell as well. [1]

Wikidata is intended to include only articles. Redirects are a fudge to
include references to parts of articles in Wikidata. That part is not
acceptable at all. It can be argued however and, you do, that redirects are
not references to parts of an article in Wikidata. Given that we have non
informative items for categories, lists and disambiguation pages you have a
point. The difference between them is that they are all marked for what
they are.. Not informative, hardly relevant and as such they can be
filtered out.

Given that we have badges, I could agree that we include redirects when
they are all marked for what they are.
Thanks,
   GerardM

[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/10/bringing-wikidata-to-commons-one-step.html

On 18 October 2014 09:00, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 On the other hand, Gerard, the full sum of knowledge about Daniel Havell
 has more dimensions that are presented by Reasonator only.

 That's why it's useful for the Creator template to be able to contain a
 link to a written-out biography, and for it to be able to continue to do so
 even once its fields are drawn from Wikidata.

 It's therefore not helpful for Wikidata to throw a pink error message and
 complain that Havell family already has an item, when somebody tries to
 link your new Q-number to the Daniel Havell redirect on :en:

 It is valuable to throw a warning, and confirm with the user that this is
 really what they want to do; but if it *is* what the user really wants to
 do, they should be able to over-ride that warning, and link to the redirect
 anyway, perhaps also requiring the user to add a field to describe the
 nature of the redirect.

 So I've added a sitelink to :en:, using the temporarily un-redirect trick,
 and also a P1472 to link back to the Commons creator template.

 But it should be easier to do this without having to do the temporary
 un-redirect; and it would be good to record that the :en: sitelink is
 pointing to a redirect, and which item the target of that redirect
 corresponds to.

 All best,

James.



 On 18/10/2014 07:01, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 Just for arguments sake I have included the information about Mr Havell to
 Wikidata. The result is certainly informative when seen from the
 Reasonator. [1]

 Any and all people known in the Creator template on Commons can and
 should have a Wikidata entry. When you are serious about the Havell
 family,
 you should make sure that all of them have full information in Wikidata as
 well BEFORE you complain about redirects to the Haswell family.[2] from
 English Wikipedia.

 As I said before, your point of view is English Wikipedia oriented and
 this
 is NOT English Wikipedia and it is NOT to promote the glory of English
 Wikipedia. It is to share in the sum of all knowledge and THAT has more
 dimensions than English only.
 Thanks,
GerardM


 [1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q18325155lang=en
 [2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=havell

 On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
 am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
 not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
 the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-18 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
With articles it is obvious. The subject matter that will be provided IS
what is advertised. This is NOT the case with re-directs. They point to
somewhere arbitrary and there is no way to ensure that the redirect remains
consistent and fits the subject of the Wikidata item well. This is
relatively Obvious with articles.

Personally I doubt there is value in redirects. I find them very Wikipedia
centric. Given the examples given, there was no Wikidata in the first
place. Harvesting redirects is an exceedingly bad idea that will pollute
Wikidata with many items we should not have.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 18 October 2014 13:12, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:

 On 18 October 2014 08:15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  I think I requested P1472, I forgot all about it. It takes so long before

 The proposal was mine:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P1472

  Wikidata is intended to include only articles.

 That is simply not true, neither literally, nor in the sense in which
 I believe you mean it (i.e. in regard to links to sister projects). In
 the latter case, we include many statements, such as:

   This item is the subject of this Wikipedia page
   This item is the subject of this Wikipedia category
   This item is the subject of this Wikimedia Commons category
   This item is the subject of this Wikimedia Commons creator template

 It therefore seem logical (and is certainly useful, as explained
 previously) to also say:

   This item is the subject of this Wikipedia redirect

 You have already been challenged to give evidence that the latter
 causes harm. Can you do so?

 --
 Andy Mabbett
 @pigsonthewing
 http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Joe Filceolaire

Gerard

Do you want to delete sitelinks to wikipedia redirects or wikidata items
which redirect to other items?

Joe
On 17 Oct 2014 06:27, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hoi,
 If there is something like a hatmaker, it can have an item even when there
 is no article in the English Wikipedia about it.

 When Mr Daniel Havell has no article, it still can have an item. It is up
 to any Wikipedia to have an article about him or not.

 It does not mean that redirects are a good thing. Or that we should allow
 for redirects in Wikidata in the first place. Any project decides what it
 has articles for and what not. With urgency all the redirects that exist
 should be deleted.
 Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
 am saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
 not the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
 the Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
 (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
 tests)

 On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
 there is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/
 index.php?title=Daniel_Havellredirect=no, which points to a section of
 an article on the Havell family:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

 Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
 redirect.

 That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
 :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


 As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

 I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


 All best,

James.




 On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
 good
 thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
 centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
 page..
 We do support them. They are not redirects.
 - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
 takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

 Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
 Thanks,
GerardM

 On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Creating sitelinks to redirects:

 As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
 *  go to client wiki,
 *  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
 *  add a sitelink
 *  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

 Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
 barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


 Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
 perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
 recently at

 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
 all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

 which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


 But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
 redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
 roundabout process above).


 Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for
 all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful,
 and should be created.


 But there are a

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Joe Filceolaire

Having sitelinks to redirects in my wikipedia makes it easier for other
wikipedias to link to my wikipedia.

If I dont care about that then I may delete those redirects from my
wikipedia and the sitelink to my wikipedia will go too.

The wikipedias have the final say on what they do and do not include.

Joe
On 16 Oct 2014 20:51, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote:

Hi Jane,

I don't think there is any Wikimedia project that actively deletes
redirects.

You don't have to believe me. Just check the delete logs. There are tens
of thousands of deleted redirects. Because they were cluttering Allpages
lists. Because they were common spelling mistakes and we do not support
mistaken spellings. Because

people also use redirects as a way of bundling concepts

in a wrong way (Looking for a scientific term and landing on the vita of
the scientist whom it is attributed to, for instance, is annoying) ... and
so on.

So this redicet idea is not suited for all Wikipedias.

Purodha

Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com writes:

In general, redirects are supposed to be used as alternate names for the
same thing, and in Wikidata, this is done by typing in alternate labels. Of
course people also use redirects as a way of bundling concepts - just
take a look at all the redirects to the article for insurance for all the
types of insurance that don't yet have their own article.

Before Wikidata there were lots of interwiki links to redirects, and this
caused multiple issues with unresolvable interwikilinks. Wikidata was
invented to be able to use persistent identifiers for Wikipedia articles.
Now everyone is surprised that now the interwikilinks work differently from
before. The fact that redirects are not supported is by design and not a
bug. Going forward, instead of making redirects, Wikidatans should just
keep creating items in Wikidata and let the Wikipedias take care of
themselves by letting them create articles and redirects in the normal wiki
way. It should not be a goal for Wikidata to sitelink to every redirect in
every Wikipedia, just as it is not a goal to sitelink to every image on
Wikimedia Commons.

The subject at hand in this email thread is that instead of creating an
article, the user ThurnerRupert made a redirect in the German Wikipedia
called afrikanische Pflaume that links to Prunus and expected to be
able to interwikilink this redirect via the Wikidata item for African
Plum to the French Wikipedia's article for safou. I would say that
Wikidata should not support this workflow and it is incorrect editing
behavior. This has nothing to do with the numbers of redirects or whether
or not they need to be deleted by anybody.

Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 6:09 PM, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote:I do
not mind having huge numbers of redirects at all, but you must be aware
that there are wikipedias the powers of which will stubbornly and
customarily delete such redirects when you create them. So that cannot be a
solutiion for all.

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Jane Darnell

My comments inline:

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Having sitelinks to redirects in my wikipedia makes it easier for other
 wikipedias to link to my wikipedia.

No, it only makes it easy for other wikipedias to link to redirects in your
wikipedia, which begs the question why you feel this is useful.

  If I dont care about that then I may delete those redirects from my
 wikipedia and the sitelink to my wikipedia will go too.

No, whether or not you care about them is irrelevant and they are not an
issue, but ALL sitelinks on Wikidata to redirects on Wikipedias should be
deleted, including and especially those sitelinks to redirects in Wikidata
items that do not contain any other statements whatsoever, such as this one:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12817561
Hopefully someone will create a bot to do this.

 The wikipedias have the final say on what they do and do not include.

Yes
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
What has that to do with Wikidata ?
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 16 October 2014 13:58, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.

 But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will
 fold it into a list.

 So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the *redirect*
 that is permitted on en-wiki.

   -- James.



 On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:

 I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
 person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out
 of
 my league here) you can make an item for anything

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:

  There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
 characters) or members of bands

 *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
 of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
 is redirect.
 *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
 article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
 about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
 is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
 characters#X)
 *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
 informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
 when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
 separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

 JAnD

 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:

 With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into

 large

 articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
 methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia
 articles
 are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff

 to

 get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
 however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any

 reference

 to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list

 of

 notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk
 wrote:


 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that

 is a

 decision for them.

 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in

 that

 language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article

 in its

 own right.

-- James.





 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:


 James,
 I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
 that
 the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
 something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
 with
 your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
 hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
 Jane

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk

 wrote:


  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what

 I

 am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the
 *sitelink*
 not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not

 exist



 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an
 article
 on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/
 Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label
 to
 the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined

 for

 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
I want to have any and all sitelinks to any and all projects that are not
an article deleted. Wikidata points to articles.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 17 October 2014 14:00, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote:

 Gerard

 Do you want to delete sitelinks to wikipedia redirects or wikidata items
 which redirect to other items?

 Joe
 On 17 Oct 2014 06:27, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hoi,
 If there is something like a hatmaker, it can have an item even when
 there is no article in the English Wikipedia about it.

 When Mr Daniel Havell has no article, it still can have an item. It is
 up to any Wikipedia to have an article about him or not.

 It does not mean that redirects are a good thing. Or that we should allow
 for redirects in Wikidata in the first place. Any project decides what it
 has articles for and what not. With urgency all the redirects that exist
 should be deleted.
 Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
 am saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
 not the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
 the Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
 (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
 tests)

 On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
 there is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/
 index.php?title=Daniel_Havellredirect=no, which points to a section of
 an article on the Havell family:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

 Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
 redirect.

 That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
 :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


 As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

 I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


 All best,

James.




 On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
 good
 thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
 centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
 page..
 We do support them. They are not redirects.
 - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
 takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

 Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
 Thanks,
GerardM

 On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Creating sitelinks to redirects:

 As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
 *  go to client wiki,
 *  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
 *  add a sitelink
 *  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

 Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
 barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


 Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
 perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
 recently at

 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
 all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

 which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


 But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
 redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-17 Thread Derric Atzrott

Thought I'd throw in my opinion on the matter.  After reading this thread
I think that I agree with the folks who believe that Wikidata items should
be able to specify a Wikipedia article that is a redirect as a sitelink to
Wikipedia.

Its by no means an ideal solution, but I can't see any problems that it
causes and I do see problems that it fixes.  If there are problems /for
Wikidata/ that allowing Wikidata items to link to Wikipedia redirects
causes, I would be happy to hear them.  I imagine someone likely tried
to point some out, but I just didn't quite grasp them.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects (was: Re: Users do understand Wikidata less than before)

I agree.
While redirects may be useful in the context of normal wiki pages and help 
pages, they are counterproductive otherwise and must not be used. Can we not 
permit / disallow redirects per-namespace via Wiki configuration?
Purodha


Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes:

Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a good 
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia centric 
and they introduce new things that do not exist.
 

a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation page.. We do 
support them. They are not redirects. When a redirect page refers to an article 
by another name, it only takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Thanks,
      GerardM
 
On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:Creating 
sitelinks to redirects:

As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
*  go to client wiki,
*  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
*  add a sitelink
*  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical barrier 
to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a perennial 
thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most recently at

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F]

which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to redirects 
are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly roundabout process 
above).


Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for all 
that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful, and should 
be created.


But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the 
practice:
*  A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink to 
language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
*  On an item, a new property redirected to, taking another item as its 
object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.


After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en masse, 
and site-linking them.

This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki A has 
lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in sections of 
one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen different primary items for 
their treatment of a field.  (For example: the profession 'hatmaker' or the 
activity 'hatmaking').


Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a clean 
item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the most relevant 
pages in their preferred alternative languages.

  -- James.



On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:nope

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola 
smole...@eunet.rs[smole...@eunet.rs] wrote:
 Citiranje Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com[jane...@gmail.com]:2) There is no 
way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
German Wikipedia's afrikanische Pflaume is currently a redirect to
Prunus
You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the old
way,
are you not?



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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I 
am saying.


To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* 
not the item.
* It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a 
featured article in some language, or any other badge.


I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article 
on it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an 
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.


It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to 
the Hatmaker item.



At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no

with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for 
Hatmaking


What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, 
linking to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the 
Hatmaking item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.




To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead 
there is a redirect, 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havellredirect=no, 
which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this 
redirect.


That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on 
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.



As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

   James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


- a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation page..
We do support them. They are not redirects.
- when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


Creating sitelinks to redirects:

As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
*  go to client wiki,
*  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
*  add a sitelink
*  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
recently at

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
roundabout process above).


Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for
all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful,
and should be created.


But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the
practice:
*  A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink
to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
*  On an item, a new property redirected to, taking another item as its
object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.


After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en
masse, and site-linking them.

This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki A
has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in
sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen different
primary items for their treatment of a field.  (For example: the profession
'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').


Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
 (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

 On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
 is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
 redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

 Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
 redirect.

 That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
 :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


 As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

 I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


 All best,

James.




 On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

 Hoi,
 I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
 good
 thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
 centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
 page..
 We do support them. They are not redirects.
 - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
 takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

 Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
 Thanks,
GerardM

 On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Creating sitelinks to redirects:

 As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
 *  go to client wiki,
 *  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
 *  add a sitelink
 *  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

 Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
 barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


 Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
 perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
 recently at

 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
 all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

 which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


 But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
 redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
 roundabout process above).


 Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for
 all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful,
 and should be created.


 But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the
 practice:
 *  A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink
 to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
 *  On an item, a new property redirected to, taking another item as its
 object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.


 After that, we should go out creating this

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects


We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, 
either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that 
is a decision for them.


But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to 
find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in 
that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate 
article in its own right.


  -- James.




On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
the item.
* It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
Hatmaker item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
Hatmaking

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
redirect.

That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:


Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


 - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
page..
 We do support them. They are not redirects.
 - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
 takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Thanks,
GerardM

On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

  Creating sitelinks to redirects:


As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
*  go to client wiki,
*  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
*  add a sitelink
*  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
recently at

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
roundabout process above).


Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-16 Thread Jan Dudík

There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
characters) or members of bands

*Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
is redirect.
*Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
characters#X)
*Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

JAnD

2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into large
 articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
 methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
 are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff to
 get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
 however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any reference
 to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list of
 notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that is a
 decision for them.

 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in that
 language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article in its
 own right.

   -- James.





 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

 James,
 I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
 that
 the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
 something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
 with
 your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
 hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
 Jane

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
 am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
 not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
 the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
 which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
 (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
 tests)

 On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
 there
 is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
 redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
 family:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

 Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
 redirect.

 That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
 :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


 As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

 I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


 All best,

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of
my league here) you can make an item for anything

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
 characters) or members of bands

 *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
 of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
 is redirect.
 *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
 article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
 about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
 is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
 characters#X)
 *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
 informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
 when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
 separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

 JAnD

 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
  With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into
 large
  articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
  methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
  are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff
 to
  get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
  however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any
 reference
  to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list
 of
  notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
 
  We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.
 
  Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?
 
  Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
  either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
 is a
  decision for them.
 
  But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
  find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
 that
  language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article
 in its
  own right.
 
-- James.
 
 
 
 
 
  On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
 
  James,
  I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
  that
  the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
  something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
  with
  your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
  hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
  Jane
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk
 wrote:
 
  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what
 I
  am
  saying.
 
  To be clearer:
 
  * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
  not
  the item.
  * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
  featured article in some language, or any other badge.
 
  I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not
 exist
 
 
  Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
 
  * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
  on
  it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
 
  * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
  on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
 
  The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
  occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.
 
  It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
  the
  Hatmaker item.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.
 
  What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
  with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
 for
  Hatmaking
 
  What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
  linking
  to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
  Hatmaking
  item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
 
 
 
  To give another example:
 
  On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
  which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
  (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
  tests)
 
  On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
  there
  is a redirect,
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
  redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
  family:

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects


You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.

But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will 
fold it into a list.


So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the 
*redirect* that is permitted on en-wiki.


  -- James.


On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:

I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of
my league here) you can make an item for anything

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:


There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
characters) or members of bands

*Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
is redirect.
*Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
characters#X)
*Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

JAnD

2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:

With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into

large

articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff

to

get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any

reference

to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list

of

notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that

is a

decision for them.

But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in

that

language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article

in its

own right.

   -- James.





On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:


James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk

wrote:



I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what

I

am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
not
the item.
* It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not

exist



Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
the
Hatmaker item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined

for

Hatmaking

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
linking
to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
Hatmaking
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
there
is a redirect,

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-16 Thread Andrew Gray

Yes, biographies are a major example of where this is useful. There
are many cases where, for example,

* Wikipedia has an article covering both a company and the founder(s)
of that company
* A Wikipedia article deals with a parent + child, or siblings, who
worked in the same field
* A Wikipedia article covers two unrelated people with the same name
who are often confused (it shouldn't happen often, but it does)

The problem arises when, for example:

* English has an article on Brother A and Brother B
* German has an article on Brother A only
* French has an article on the brothers + redirects
* Spanish has an article on the brothers *and* both A and B individually.

What should happen here is that Wikidata has three entries: A, B, and
brothers, with A and B marked as parts of the brothers concept. I
think we can all agree this is correct :-)

But the way the interwikis work gets strange. From the English
article, you can only get to Spanish. From the English or German
articles, you can never get to the French one, even though it probably
contains what you need. If we could use redirects, you would be able
to get to French from any of the other languages.

It's not perfect - but it's at least better than nothing...

Andrew,


On 16 October 2014 11:45, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:
 There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
 characters) or members of bands

 *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
 of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
 is redirect.
 *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
 article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
 about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
 is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
 characters#X)
 *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
 informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
 when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
 separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

 JAnD

 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into large
 articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
 methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
 are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff to
 get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
 however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any reference
 to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list of
 notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that is a
 decision for them.

 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in that
 language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article in its
 own right.

   -- James.





 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

 James,
 I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
 that
 the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
 something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
 with
 your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
 hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
 Jane

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
 am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
 not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
 the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-16 Thread Marielle Volz

I'll agree that in general though it's good policy to allow linking on
wikidata to redirect links. That way, if in the future someone thinks
hatmaker merits a separate article from hatmaking (although I doubt
it), the link to the wikidata item is already there. Without this
functionality we risk duplication of wikidata items when redirects
become articles in their own right, and a new wikidata item is made
for it without knowing there's already a wikidata link for it (because
there was no link to the redirect page).

I think Jane makes a great point though;

Why don't we use transclusion for these kinds of issues? I.e. *have* a
separate article about each band member, but then transclude that
information into the band's article. This is more of a Wikipedia
deletionist culture issue rather than a Wikidata issue though; I
suspect you'll have trouble if you actually try to do this on en wiki,
in cases where those people wouldn't be considered notable on their
own.

Andrew's points illustrate where this might be useful: take the case
of the Attenborough brothers. There was some debate in the talk page
over whether https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Attenborough was worth
an entire article because he's mostly only famous because he has two
rather famous brothers.

Right now we could make a page attenborough brothers, put
onlyinclude tags around the intro to all three articles, and boom,
article! This would somewhat ameliorate the problem Andrew was talking
about with incomplete linkage across languages.

I do see a fundamental culture conflict coming up between wikidata and
wikipedia- wikidata incentives the creation of small articles with
individual, discrete concepts, whereas wikipedia values articles of a
certain length with synthesis. I think transclusion would be a great
way to bridge the gap and add value to both.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
 Yes, biographies are a major example of where this is useful. There
 are many cases where, for example,

 * Wikipedia has an article covering both a company and the founder(s)
 of that company
 * A Wikipedia article deals with a parent + child, or siblings, who
 worked in the same field
 * A Wikipedia article covers two unrelated people with the same name
 who are often confused (it shouldn't happen often, but it does)

 The problem arises when, for example:

 * English has an article on Brother A and Brother B
 * German has an article on Brother A only
 * French has an article on the brothers + redirects
 * Spanish has an article on the brothers *and* both A and B individually.

 What should happen here is that Wikidata has three entries: A, B, and
 brothers, with A and B marked as parts of the brothers concept. I
 think we can all agree this is correct :-)

 But the way the interwikis work gets strange. From the English
 article, you can only get to Spanish. From the English or German
 articles, you can never get to the French one, even though it probably
 contains what you need. If we could use redirects, you would be able
 to get to French from any of the other languages.

 It's not perfect - but it's at least better than nothing...

 Andrew,


 On 16 October 2014 11:45, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:
 There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
 characters) or members of bands

 *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
 of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
 is redirect.
 *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
 article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
 about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
 is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
 characters#X)
 *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
 informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
 when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
 separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

 JAnD

 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into large
 articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
 methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
 are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff to
 get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
 however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any reference
 to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list of
 notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

While I agree with the idea of linking between languages
including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use
Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us
try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves
Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics.
Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show
a list of related topics which are determined semantically
rather then by spelling.

Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of
redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make
all the ones that are possibly useful. 

Purodha


James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk writes:
 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.
 
 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?
 
 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, 
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that 
 is a decision for them.
 
 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to 
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in 
 that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate 
 article in its own right.
 
-- James.
 
 
 
 
 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
  James,
  I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that
  the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
  something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with
  your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
  hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
  Jane
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
 
  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
  saying.
 
  To be clearer:
 
  * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
  the item.
  * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
  featured article in some language, or any other badge.
 
  I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist
 
 
  Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
 
  * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
  it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
 
  * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
  on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
 
  The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
  occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.
 
  It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
  Hatmaker item.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.
 
  What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
  with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
  Hatmaking
 
  What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
  to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
  item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
 
 
 
  To give another example:
 
  On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
  which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
  (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)
 
  On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
  is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
  redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell
 
  Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
  redirect.
 
  That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
  :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.
 
 
  As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.
 
  I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.
 
 
  All best,
 
  James.
 
 
 
 
  On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 
  Hoi,
  I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
  good
  thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
  centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.
 
 
   - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
  page..
   We do support them. They are not redirects.
   - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
   takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
 
  Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
  Thanks,
  GerardM
 
  On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
 
Creating sitelinks to redirects:
 
  As I

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects


Redirects are cheap.

On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged.

There is also a category on en-wiki, Redirects with possibilities for 
redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles.


I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers 
of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that 
might be rather welcome.


Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, 
just what it can point to on the client wikis.


  -- James.


On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote:

While I agree with the idea of linking between languages
including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use
Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us
try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves
Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics.
Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show
a list of related topics which are determined semantically
rather then by spelling.

Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of
redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make
all the ones that are possibly useful.

Purodha


James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk writes:

We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
is a decision for them.

But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate
article in its own right.

-- James.




On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:


I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
the item.
* It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not exist


Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to the
Hatmaker item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
Hatmaking

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the Hatmaking
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell;
redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
redirect.

That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

 James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:


Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


  - a redirect page to three pages is also

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

2014-10-16 Thread Joe Filceolaire

Jane

I disagree.

Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one wikipedia
get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of the
wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias to
follow the same structure.

Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one
concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy
and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata.

Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created whenever
we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged' item
will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are
stable and persistent.

Joe

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them
 on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on
 Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who
 become Wikidatans. Period.

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 Redirects are cheap.

 On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged.

 There is also a category on en-wiki, Redirects with possibilities for
 redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles.

 I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers
 of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that
 might be rather welcome.

 Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, just
 what it can point to on the client wikis.

   -- James.



 On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote:

 While I agree with the idea of linking between languages
 including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use
 Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us
 try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves
 Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics.
 Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show
 a list of related topics which are determined semantically
 rather then by spelling.

 Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of
 redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make
 all the ones that are possibly useful.

 Purodha


 James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk writes:

 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
 is a decision for them.

 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
 that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate
 article in its own right.

 -- James.




 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

 James,
 I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
 that
 the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
 something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
 with
 your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
 hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
 Jane

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk
 wrote:

  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what
 I am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the
 *sitelink* not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not
 exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an
 article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label
 to the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
 with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
 for
 Hatmaking

 What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
 linking
 to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add sitelinks to the
 Hatmaking
 item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



 To give another example:

 On Commons, we have a

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

Joe,
That's actually not what I said. What I said was that we should explode all
bundled concepts on Wikipedia into items on Wikidata. I did not say that we
should do anything at all on Wikipedia. I am perfectly capable of keeping
to the point on a Wikidata mailing list, and I believe that the explosion
of data as I envision it on Wikidata would be helped by using Wiktionary.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Jane

 I disagree.

 Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one
 wikipedia get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of
 the wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias
 to follow the same structure.

 Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one
 concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy
 and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata.

 Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created
 whenever we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged'
 item will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are
 stable and persistent.

 Joe

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them
 on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on
 Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who
 become Wikidatans. Period.

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

 Redirects are cheap.

 On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged.

 There is also a category on en-wiki, Redirects with possibilities for
 redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles.

 I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers
 of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that
 might be rather welcome.

 Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata,
 just what it can point to on the client wikis.

   -- James.



 On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote:

 While I agree with the idea of linking between languages
 including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use
 Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us
 try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves
 Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics.
 Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show
 a list of related topics which are determined semantically
 rather then by spelling.

 Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of
 redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make
 all the ones that are possibly useful.

 Purodha


 James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk writes:

 We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.

 Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

 Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
 either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
 is a decision for them.

 But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
 find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
 that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate
 article in its own right.

 -- James.




 On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

 James,
 I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
 that
 the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
 something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are
 wasting with
 your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
 hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
 Jane

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk
 wrote:

  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood
 what I am
 saying.

 To be clearer:

 * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the
 *sitelink* not
 the item.
 * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
 featured article in some language, or any other badge.

 I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not
 exist


 Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

 * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an
 article on
 it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

 * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
 on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/
 Q18199649

 The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
 occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

 It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label
 to the
 Hatmaker item.


 At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.

 What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

I do not mind having huge numbers of redirects at all, but you must be aware 
that there are wikipedias the powers of which will stubbornly and customarily 
delete such redirects when you create them. So that cannot be a solutiion for 
all.

Purodha 

James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk writes:

 You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.
 
 But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will 
 fold it into a list.
 
 So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the 
 *redirect* that is permitted on en-wiki.
 
-- James.
 
 
 On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:
  I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
  person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of
  my league here) you can make an item for anything
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík jan.du...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
  characters) or members of bands
 
  *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
  of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
  is redirect.
  *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
  article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
  about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
  is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
  characters#X)
  *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
  informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
  when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
  separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.
 
  JAnD
 
  2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
  With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into
  large
  articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
  methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
  are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff
  to
  get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
  however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any
  reference
  to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list
  of
  notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
 
  We have the relevant information on :en in hatmaking.
 
  Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?
 
  Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
  either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
  is a
  decision for them.
 
  But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
  find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
  that
  language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article
  in its
  own right.
 
 -- James.
 
 
 
 
 
  On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
 
  James,
  I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
  that
  the English Wikipedia does not have an article on hatmaker is not
  something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
  with
  your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
  hatmaker on the English wikipedia.
  Jane
 
  On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.he...@ucl.ac.uk
  wrote:
 
  I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what
  I
  am
  saying.
 
  To be clearer:
 
  * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
  not
  the item.
  * It is no more Wikipedia centric than noting that a link goes to a
  featured article in some language, or any other badge.
 
  I'm not proposing items be introduced for new things that do not
  exist
 
 
  Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
 
  * Hatmaking is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
  on
  it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
 
  * Hatmaker is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
  on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
 
  The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
  occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.
 
  It therefore would not make any sense to add Hatmaking as a label to
  the
  Hatmaker item.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for Hatmaker.
 
  What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmakerredirect=no
  with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
 
 
  At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
  for
  Hatmaking
 
  What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
  linking
  to their articles on Hatmaker, and then add

Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects

Purodha,
Redirects are cheap - so cheap in fact, that they take up more space when
you delete them, so even if they are misspelled or whatever, they are
mostly left to rot unless they break something (for example when someone
wants to use a redlink like [[redlink]] and someone else makes a redirect
for redlink). I don't think there is any Wikimedia project that actively
deletes redirects.

In general, redirects are supposed to be used as alternate names for the
same thing, and in Wikidata, this is done by typing in alternate labels. Of
course people also use redirects as a way of bundling concepts - just
take a look at all the redirects to the article for insurance for all the
types of insurance that don't yet have their own article.

Before Wikidata there were lots of interwiki links to redirects, and this
caused multiple issues with unresolvable interwikilinks. Wikidata was
invented to be able to use persistent identifiers for Wikipedia articles.
Now everyone is surprised that now the interwikilinks work differently from
before. The fact that redirects are not supported is by design and not a
bug. Going forward, instead of making redirects, Wikidatans should just
keep creating items in Wikidata and let the Wikipedias take care of
themselves by letting them create articles and redirects in the normal wiki
way. It should not be a goal for Wikidata to sitelink to every redirect in
every Wikipedia, just as it is not a goal to sitelink to every image on
Wikimedia Commons.

The subject at hand in this email thread is that instead of creating an
article, the user ThurnerRupert made a redirect in the German Wikipedia
called afrikanische Pflaume that links to Prunus and expected to be
able to interwikilink this redirect via the Wikidata item for African
Plum to the French Wikipedia's article for safou. I would say that
Wikidata should not support this workflow and it is incorrect editing
behavior. This has nothing to do with the numbers of redirects or whether
or not they need to be deleted by anybody.

Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 6:09 PM, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote:

 I do not mind having huge numbers of redirects at all, but you must be
 aware that there are wikipedias the powers of which will stubbornly and
 customarily delete such redirects when you create them. So that cannot be a
 solutiion for all.

 Purodha

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Sitelinks to Redirects