Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I get the feeling Grawp isn't expecting us to do anything off-wiki. If the victims call the police, it would at the very least (unless I'm wrong, which is always possible) surprise him, possibly awaken his mom/guardian to the reality of the situation, and probably turn this from a game in his mind into an exchange with very real people. OTOH, he might just laugh at us for overreacting... but at least that way he'll get more careful, meaning no more death threats (on-wiki at least, if he gets abusive via email the victims can employ filtering, if he gets abusive on IRC the chanops can ban him etc.) and less vandalism (maybe). We should probably complain to insert government official | insert journalist that Verizon is being oh-so-useless right now... On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:32 AM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM, [[User:Thinboy00]] thinboy00+wikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.comwrote: so are we calling the police or not? No, we aren't; it's up to the people who have been targets of death, rape and violence threats and whose children have been threatened with rape and murder to decide for themselves if they want to take that step or not. I would personally support people who wanted to do so and I hope the Foundation would, too, but it's a decision those people have to make for themselves. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Sincerely, Thinboy00 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Why is Grawp still being discussed? Although I am not a fan of WP:DENY, this is even bothering me - White Cat On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:43 AM, [[User:Thinboy00]] thinboy00+wikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.comwrote: I get the feeling Grawp isn't expecting us to do anything off-wiki. If the victims call the police, it would at the very least (unless I'm wrong, which is always possible) surprise him, possibly awaken his mom/guardian to the reality of the situation, and probably turn this from a game in his mind into an exchange with very real people. OTOH, he might just laugh at us for overreacting... but at least that way he'll get more careful, meaning no more death threats (on-wiki at least, if he gets abusive via email the victims can employ filtering, if he gets abusive on IRC the chanops can ban him etc.) and less vandalism (maybe). We should probably complain to insert government official | insert journalist that Verizon is being oh-so-useless right now... On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:32 AM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM, [[User:Thinboy00]] thinboy00+wikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.comthinboy00%252bwikipedial...@gmail.com wrote: so are we calling the police or not? No, we aren't; it's up to the people who have been targets of death, rape and violence threats and whose children have been threatened with rape and murder to decide for themselves if they want to take that step or not. I would personally support people who wanted to do so and I hope the Foundation would, too, but it's a decision those people have to make for themselves. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Sincerely, Thinboy00 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: So why are you wasting the ISPs time and the police's time when the best of the passive technology routes have not been explored? Using machine learning *you pit the vandals against themselves. *Every time they perform a particular kind of vandalism, it can never be performed again because the bot will recognize it. There's an infinite number of ways to vandalise the wikipedia, and, in practice, not all forms of vandalism can be detected by any known design of bot, or humans with complete reliability for that matter. I know something of machine learning myself, although I am not an expert. In principle it can learn anything, in practice, there are many problems and if you have *any* other way to do something, you're normally better off. Vandalism/spam is a difficult enough problem that *any* method should be investigated and if it is found to be effective, applied, not simply technological ones. But we need to stick to proportionality- we should never use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Jarlaxle is only 19; as I understand it the human brain does not fully mature until maybe 25. Unless he's actually mentally ill (which is by no means inconceivable) he is likely to stop of his own accord at some point. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: So why are you wasting the ISPs time and the police's time when the best of the passive technology routes have not been explored? Using machine learning *you pit the vandals against themselves. *Every time they perform a particular kind of vandalism, it can never be performed again because the bot will recognize it. on 12/31/08 1:15 PM, Ian Woollard at ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: There's an infinite number of ways to vandalise the wikipedia, and, in practice, not all forms of vandalism can be detected by any known design of bot, or humans with complete reliability for that matter. I know something of machine learning myself, although I am not an expert. In principle it can learn anything, in practice, there are many problems and if you have *any* other way to do something, you're normally better off. Vandalism/spam is a difficult enough problem that *any* method should be investigated and if it is found to be effective, applied, not simply technological ones. But we need to stick to proportionality- we should never use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Jarlaxle is only 19; as I understand it the human brain does not fully mature until maybe 25. Unless he's actually mentally ill (which is by no means inconceivable) he is likely to stop of his own accord at some point. You are treading on dangerous and uncertain ground here, Ian: the difference between mental health and emotional health. I am not suggesting that the guy be dragged off in chains to somewhere. But a strong, in-person message - both to him AND his parents - from an authority spelling out the consequences if he does not stop could go a long way towards resolving this. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Soxred93 wrote: See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. Bowing down before a graven image of Saint Azimov! Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM, [[User:Thinboy00]] thinboy00+wikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.comwrote: so are we calling the police or not? No, we aren't; it's up to the people who have been targets of death, rape and violence threats and whose children have been threatened with rape and murder to decide for themselves if they want to take that step or not. I would personally support people who wanted to do so and I hope the Foundation would, too, but it's a decision those people have to make for themselves. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
[[Non-credible threat]] If you do go overboard and call the cops please send them a link to this thread. On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM, [[User:Thinboy00]] thinboy00+wikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.com thinboy00%2bwikipedial...@gmail.comthinboy00%252bwikipedial...@gmail.com wrote: so are we calling the police or not? No, we aren't; it's up to the people who have been targets of death, rape and violence threats and whose children have been threatened with rape and murder to decide for themselves if they want to take that step or not. I would personally support people who wanted to do so and I hope the Foundation would, too, but it's a decision those people have to make for themselves. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Brian wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. You say it plays into his turf, but as I pointed out, the method pits him against himself. The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source code and some funds from the Foundation? I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution. Fixing the bots is. I can only marvel at the blind religious faith that IT people exhibit in technical solutions to human problems. It's as though the magic formula that will make all the problems go away is is a form of God's creation that is just around the corner. At least the Scientologists had the decency to call their science a church. Calling the cops may indeed be uncreative and heavy-handed on the individual vandal involved, but sometimes it's the right way to go; at least it's a tool that can be kept handy in one's kit. (I don't know enough about the specifics of this case to say this is the place to apply it, and I don't want to know.) The magic solution can be just as heavy-handed on many who have nothing to do vandalism. Ec On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
As someone who really did open an FBI case last year about a credible threat that arose from wiki-stuff, some of y'all need a primer on Goin' to the Cops 101. 1. Their time and resources are finite. 2. They don't like paperwork. 3. Part of their job is to quell people who want to misuse the system for frivolous complaints. So you get a series of questions. Stuff like: * Why do you consider this a threat? * Are you really scared by that? * Have you contacted the ISP? * What have they done? * Have you contacted the folks who run Wikipedia? * What have they done? * Why didn't you call us sooner? And if you don't have good answers to all those questions plus records of the doors you knocked on before calling law enforcement, you'll end up looking pretty foolish. And when you think how many people who really deal with criminal stalkers have trouble getting rudimentary help from the law because they're the needle in a haystack of frivolous complaints, you may feel regret. Grawp targeted me too. It was an annoyance. Be reasonable, people. Start up a petition to the ISP. -Durova On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wrote: Brian wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. You say it plays into his turf, but as I pointed out, the method pits him against himself. The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source code and some funds from the Foundation? I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution. Fixing the bots is. I can only marvel at the blind religious faith that IT people exhibit in technical solutions to human problems. It's as though the magic formula that will make all the problems go away is is a form of God's creation that is just around the corner. At least the Scientologists had the decency to call their science a church. Calling the cops may indeed be uncreative and heavy-handed on the individual vandal involved, but sometimes it's the right way to go; at least it's a tool that can be kept handy in one's kit. (I don't know enough about the specifics of this case to say this is the place to apply it, and I don't want to know.) The magic solution can be just as heavy-handed on many who have nothing to do vandalism. Ec On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do anything, why not just fix it from a technical end? Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't someone create it? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Is he worth causing that much disruption to our users? On 12/29/08, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do anything, why not just fix it from a technical end? Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't someone create it? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be found in any dictionary. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote: On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
What percentage of his page moves were not picked up automatically by a bot? What percentage of this users vandalism is not picked up by a bot? Why is the ISP responsible for what he dumps into Wikipedia, rather than Wikipedia, as it allows itself to be a dumping ground? The Viacom/Youtube lawsuit demonstrates that this is a legal grey area, thus, I see little ground on which to punish the entire ip range of the ISP. Why are machine learning bots that are trained on previous vandalism in order to detect new vandalism not being used? They have been developed. Why is the Foundation not funding their further development? I believe the direction of this thread has been all wrong. Peace, On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be found in any dictionary. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote: On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. on 12/29/08 6:02 PM, Ian Woollard at ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Potthast, Stein, Gerling. (2008). Automatic Vandalism Detection in Wikipedia. http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/webis/publications/downloads/papers/stein_2008c.pdf Abstract. We present results of a new approach to detect destructive article revi- sions, so-called vandalism, in Wikipedia. Vandalism detection is a one-class clas- sification problem, where vandalism edits are the target to be identified among all revisions. Interestingly, vandalism detection has not been addressed in the In- formation Retrieval literature by now. In this paper we discuss the characteristics of vandalism as humans recognize it and develop features to render vandalism detection as a machine learning task. We compiled a large number of vandalism edits in a corpus, which allows for the comparison of existing and new detection approaches. Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* Open the PDF, scan to page 667. This bot outperforms MartinBot, T-850 Robotic Assistant, WerdnaAntiVandalBot, Xenophon, ClueBot, CounterVandalismBot, PkgBot, MiszaBot, and AntiVandalBot. It outperforms the best of those (AntiVandalBot) by a very wide margin. So why are you wasting the ISPs time and the police's time when the best of the passive technology routes have not been explored? Using machine learning *you pit the vandals against themselves. *Every time they perform a particular kind of vandalism, it can never be performed again because the bot will recognize it. Cheers, ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Brian wrote: By the way, I ask those questions having read the bots user page. It is apparently quite effective, indicating to me that this user causes minimal disruption. minimal only applies if it doesn't impact *your* watchlist. OK, he's fairly quickly detected, blocked and reverted, and protections applied. But, you know, what editors should really be doing is creating good content. Vandals should not be be allowed to divert resources away from that objective, and if they do, they should be stopped. I see no middle position here. Those of us who spend our time controlling vandalism, and it is a control paradigm, would much rather be creating that good content. Any vandal is a diversion from that purpose, and we are much too lenient with them. Four levels of warning is too many for obvious vandals, and I start at level 2. There is no such thing as AGF for most obvious vandals. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
This is preposterous. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I hope you do understand that fixing the bots is not a simple task. Is the research you mentioned availible in any way that we can make use of it in programming? On 12/29/08, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. You say it plays into his turf, but as I pointed out, the method pits him against himself. The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source code and some funds from the Foundation? If I were a determined vandal, you could not stop me with the current bots. I consider the vandalism this kid is performing to be trivial. He is not even trying that hard. The problem is that the bots that have been put up against him are ruled based and he can easily lookup the rules. Vandalism and counter-vandalism is an arms race, but it is nowhere near as bad as the e-mail spam arms race as there is no financial incentive. Thus, simple bayesian techniques that are used for e-mail, and those described in the article I posted, will be very effective. The training set is monstrous - all of the tagged vandalism in the database. The method automatically escalates the arms race and nips each new technique in the bud as soon as it surfaces. Beating it will require a new breed of vandals. I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution. Fixing the bots is. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific problem that is sitting across from us right now. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:29 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Marc Riddell wrote: on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific problem that is sitting across from us right now. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy- handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far- reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting, these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed. And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all kinds with all techniques that work. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Your standards are far too high. Rules + automatic classification + human eyes converges on 100%. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.comwrote: On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting, these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed. And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all kinds with all techniques that work. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
so are we calling the police or not? On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: I would talk to either Crispy1989 or Cobi about that, as they are the prime developers of it. However, anyone can ask them for access to the interface where you can teach the new ClueBot what is vandalism and what isn't. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:24 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Brian wrote: I would be interested in hearing more about what you are doing. My day job is as a developer on the Emergent Neural Network Simulation System ( http://grey.colorado.edu/ccnlab/index.php/Main_Page) and I can also provide insights into feature dimensions from my past experience on automatically tagging Wikipedia articles with quality ( http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:BM1). I was thinking that a non-neural network solution, such as as the Core Vector Machine, might be more appropriate given the size of the training dataset. But NN is an interesting idea. Maybe we can converse on wiki-research-l? Cheers, On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. X! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Sincerely, Thinboy00 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
WIKIPEDIA 2009 A.D. THE MACHINES ROSE FROM THE ASHES OF THE VANDALISM FIRE. THEIR WAR TO EXTERMINATE VANDALS HAS RAGED FOR YEARS, BUT THE FINAL BATTLE WOULD NOT BE FOUGHT IN THE TOOLSERVER. IT WOULD BE FOUGHT HERE, IN OUR WIKI. TONIGHT... I think not, the ai only decides whether the edit is vandalism not what action to take. Any way what's the worst that can happen, its not like we can't block the bot (Adminbots on the other hand :P (or how about a StewardBot to desysop rouge adminbots :P))? The bottom line is, it isn't going to happen, a computer will only do what you tell it to do, a badly trained ai might start reverting good users, however then as I said we can just block the bot. - Chris On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. WIKIPEDIA 2009 A.D. THE MACHINES ROSE FROM THE ASHES OF THE VANDALISM FIRE. THEIR WAR TO EXTERMINATE VANDALS HAS RAGED FOR YEARS, BUT THE FINAL BATTLE WOULD NOT BE FOUGHT IN THE TOOLSERVER. IT WOULD BE FOUGHT HERE, IN OUR WIKI. TONIGHT... - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:45 AM, Christopher Grant chrisgrantm...@gmail.com wrote: X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's). - Chris On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/26 John Reaves johnreave...@gmail.com: So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had? I know what my choice would be... I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't the reason, it's a consideration. I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration, trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins. (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.) The reason the wheel of fat would stop at unblock is that the secret of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting down the wiki. That's what soft security means and that's why we use it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.) There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task. There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l I requested feedback on [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement]] with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FArbitration_enforcementdiff=260192750oldid=260186203 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Not going to put this on-wiki, but... I may have a back channel to Verizon abuse people via the spam fighter community. I am peripherally aware of the details here, but I'm not the right person to talk to Verizon about them. If I can get a contact, who should I point them at for the detailed conversation including names, addresses, edit histories, etc? Thanks. -george On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:45 AM, Christopher Grant chrisgrantm...@gmail.com wrote: X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's). - Chris On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/26 John Reaves johnreave...@gmail.com: So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had? I know what my choice would be... I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't the reason, it's a consideration. I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration, trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins. (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.) The reason the wheel of fat would stop at unblock is that the secret of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting down the wiki. That's what soft security means and that's why we use it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.) There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task. There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l I requested feedback on [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement]] with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FArbitration_enforcementdiff=260192750oldid=260186203 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :) X! On Dec 25, 2008, at 5:12 AM [Dec 25, 2008 ], Martijn Hoekstra wrote: On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/12/2008, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is success for him. It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for the Wikipedia's reputation (Anyone can edit except for Verizon users!), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it remains a possibility. There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily, black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity. The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the cleanup. X! -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ] It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP, but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people that can do something about it. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Soxred93 wrote: Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :) X! What might be better is to email their abuse@ first saying that on a certain date, none of their customers will be able to edit anonymously, and that this will continue, with the blocking period doubling, until they do something about *their* customer. I don't know if they have support newsgroups, but info to this effect into those NGs will concentrate the minds of those affected customers such that they will act in their own interests, but ultimately to ours too. As far as I can see, there is nothing unlawful in this, and it doesn't amount to blackmail, because it's not an unwarranted demand- it's a simple declaration of intent; and it's not with menaces, because restricting access to an essentially private website can be done for whatever reason at all, capricious or not. Neither is it with a view to gain or with intent to cause loss, because that clause specifically directs to economic consequences, which would not follow to Verizon should we choose to block their anon customers en bloc for temporary periods. All in all, it's *our* website, and we hold all the cards. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Also, we should include a message that tells people to contact the ISP to get the block fixed. Thousands of e-mails should get their attention (although it didn't work for the images of Mohammad issue, hmm). On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Phil Nash pn007a2...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Soxred93 wrote: Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :) X! What might be better is to email their abuse@ first saying that on a certain date, none of their customers will be able to edit anonymously, and that this will continue, with the blocking period doubling, until they do something about *their* customer. I don't know if they have support newsgroups, but info to this effect into those NGs will concentrate the minds of those affected customers such that they will act in their own interests, but ultimately to ours too. As far as I can see, there is nothing unlawful in this, and it doesn't amount to blackmail, because it's not an unwarranted demand- it's a simple declaration of intent; and it's not with menaces, because restricting access to an essentially private website can be done for whatever reason at all, capricious or not. Neither is it with a view to gain or with intent to cause loss, because that clause specifically directs to economic consequences, which would not follow to Verizon should we choose to block their anon customers en bloc for temporary periods. All in all, it's *our* website, and we hold all the cards. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- John Reaves ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had? I know what my choice would be... On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 5:29 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/26 Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com: Maybe we can set it for only 1 day, but use a JS hack to say that it's indefinite. That might get the word out to them. :) The idea of blocking a whole ISP is unlikely to fly. I suspect that an admin placing such a block without agreement from the arbcom and the Foundation (cos you *know* they'd get the crap for it) would be (a) quickly reversed (b) given a slap round the head with a trout at the very least. Attention-getting blocks have worked on bodies the size of universities before (I recall two of them, both put into place by a sitting arbitrator who then managed relations with the organisations very closely), but even then it was a very last desperate resort. Throwing our weight around like that would be a PR disaster, no matter how unresponsive Verizon were being. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- John Reaves ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Martijn Hoekstra wrote: ] It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP, but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people that can do something about it. This is commonly a way other services handle(d?) abusive users from unresponsive ISP's. E.g. If I start spewing viagra spam to a few million guessed e-mails, and my ISP refuses to do anything about it, other customers on my ISP will soon find that other SMTP servers will not accept messages that originate in my netblock (well, depending on setup, but, last time it happened it seemed like 6/10 messages I sent were refused). In some peering situations, at least earlier on, this was a common sort of scenario as well, when it came to other destructive forms of abuse, like Denial of Service, and the like. This approach generally gets results very quickly. This is the only real way to deal with a user like this. Sure, there will be a lot of collateral damage, and, there will be some disruption. The thing we need to decide for ourselves is -- Is ridding ourself of this user worth the disruption it would cause to the website? Also would need to keep in mind he will probably get a new ISP (or at least abuse from school, etc... Those should be easier to hunt and abusemail however) As far as the difficulty of blocking him, it would not be too terribly hard to make an extension that blocks users from editing by passing a regular expression over their hostmask. E.g. /.*\.dsl\.verizon\.net/i or whatever the mask for his type of connection is. (This may actually allow us to further narrow this approach and reduce collateral, by the way). Simply placing a block message along the lines of In order to protect our project from a user or handful of users on Verizon DSL, we have disabled editing from this netblock, until Verizon takes action on ticket # XYZ123., or something like that. SQL ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I cannot deny that it would likely to be effective; but it would also cause ill-will and bad publicity towards the wikipedia. The wikipedia is accessed by a large fraction of their thousands of customers every day, people that we're really supposed to be helping; and they've done nothing worth getting blocked over. So it really would be a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and the guy is irritating, but he's not impacting nearly as many people as would be hurt by a block like that. I think the wikipedia is better off coming up with general strategies that make his kind of vandalism pointless or easier to undo or strategies to permit blocking of just the active vandals. On 25/12/2008, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/12/2008, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is success for him. It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for the Wikipedia's reputation (Anyone can edit except for Verizon users!), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it remains a possibility. There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily, black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity. The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the cleanup. X! -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ] It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP, but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people that can do something about it. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
So far, we have: *Huggle *ClueBot *Notices on IRC *Spam blacklist *Abuse filter (in the future) to stop him. None of these have worked. Unless we block all of Verizon, or use a hack to start blocking the XFF header, Grawp will continue. I'm sure that the sysadmins would be able to find some way to block Grawp's XFF header. X! On Dec 25, 2008, at 8:23 PM [Dec 25, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote: I cannot deny that it would likely to be effective; but it would also cause ill-will and bad publicity towards the wikipedia. The wikipedia is accessed by a large fraction of their thousands of customers every day, people that we're really supposed to be helping; and they've done nothing worth getting blocked over. So it really would be a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and the guy is irritating, but he's not impacting nearly as many people as would be hurt by a block like that. I think the wikipedia is better off coming up with general strategies that make his kind of vandalism pointless or easier to undo or strategies to permit blocking of just the active vandals. On 25/12/2008, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/12/2008, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is success for him. It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for the Wikipedia's reputation (Anyone can edit except for Verizon users!), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it remains a possibility. There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily, black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity. The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the cleanup. X! -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ] It seems hard to believe that Verizon would let such a rangeblock sit for long. I think the only message we need to get over to them is dude, we're not kidding. We don't want to rangeblock your entire ISP, but this one person who has an internet account with you is causing us major headaches. Because of your dynamic IP adresses, we are unable to deal with it on an individual level. We are open to suggestions on how we can solve the problem, but if you are really not willing to help us out here, we simply have no other choise but to block every IP adress in your range from editing, as much as we'd hate to do that I can't believe that bigwigs at Verizon would be willing to let that happen, the question is just how to get through to the right people that can do something about it. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
2008/12/26 John Reaves johnreave...@gmail.com: So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had? I know what my choice would be... I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't the reason, it's a consideration. I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration, trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins. (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.) The reason the wheel of fat would stop at unblock is that the secret of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting down the wiki. That's what soft security means and that's why we use it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.) There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task. There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
X! you missed out adminbots(e.g. Miza's). - Chris On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:03 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/26 John Reaves johnreave...@gmail.com: So it comes down to whether or not we care more about a positive PR image or being able to maintain an encyclopedia without disruption and harassment from one of the biggest idiots we've ever had? I know what my choice would be... I'm describing how this has been done in the past and why. PR isn't the reason, it's a consideration. I predict that such an ISP-wide block as we're describing here would go block, unblock, block, unblock x10, stop at unblock, arbitration, trout slaps and desysops all round for idiot blocking and wheel warring. Though it might shake loose the lower decile of admins. (That's an unintended side benefit, not a reason to do it either.) The reason the wheel of fat would stop at unblock is that the secret of blocks on Wikipedia is: they're just minor speed humps; you can't keep someone from editing if they *really* want to without shutting down the wiki. That's what soft security means and that's why we use it. Would your average reader or even editor know who the hell Grawp is in this context? No, they wouldn't. (They wouldn't because quite a few people work hard to make it that way, but nevertheless.) There's no point disrupting editing for large chunks of Verizon because this would just cause Grawp to go elsewhere. We're talking about someone who's clearly pathologically dedicated to this task. There is no cure for vandalism on Wikipedia while humans are humans. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1001000/10.1-1004.html All I get out of Virginia State law, ATM, concerns archaeology. Maybe I should keep digging, and for some reason, what I hav found so far is not promising that verizon's stated restrictions on spamming are not more exact and *potentially* effective. Someone said that a law without enforcement is not a law (of course, not, it is a bill), and I do not see any promises from Verizon/Bellsouth. - Original Message - From: William King williamcarlk...@gmail.com To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:16 AM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp Looks like the self-described small giant (Grawp) was doing his thing this morning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/V2score Time in a jail cell should be the ultimate Christmas/Hanukkah present for Grawp. William King (Willking1979) -- From: William King williamcarlk...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in the past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users. William King (Willking1979) -- From: Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if you want to go that route. This has gone on long enough. -Durova On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal law, because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to being very slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well for their taking action on snail mail. § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury. When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more citizens of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a public or common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation, shall summon a special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term of such court, to specially investigate such complaint. (Code 1919, § 1520.) - Original Message - From: William King williamcarlk...@gmail.com To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:16 AM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp Looks like the self-described small giant (Grawp) was doing his thing this morning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/V2score Time in a jail cell should be the ultimate Christmas/Hanukkah present for Grawp. William King (Willking1979) -- From: William King williamcarlk...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in the past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users. William King (Willking1979) -- From: Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if you want to go that route. This has gone on long enough. -Durova On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
:) FT2 On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal law, because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to being very slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well for their taking action on snail mail. § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury. When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more citizens of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a public or common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation, shall summon a special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term of such court, to specially investigate such complaint. (Code 1919, § 1520.) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: (...) You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC-they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. (...) It's hard to know that verizon should be in a red light, except by exhaustion. Many ISPs send auto-replies to spam reports, just for the publicity. The sheer volume of reports can make personal replies impractical. I ignore auto-replies until the problem goes away. This problem does not seem to be going away. Haggar The Horrible (with 1337 variations) seems to be his favourite cartoon character. Right now, all I can see legally is potential for federal law concerning viruses to be of use. Physically, there is still potential for blocking the whole ISP. Do not look to hard and long at rules against this, because ISPs use spamhaus.org (SORBS/SORBL) at their own discretion. Some block e-mail, only. Some block every packet. With my level of USENET activity, I would probably see a thousand pieces of spam every day without filters, and about thirty percent of that would come from spam-friendly domains. Wikipedia is a wonderful place to learn about rules on freedom of speech. Maybe your own ISP's support address can tell you about their spam assasin configuration. ___ Line noise did not go away. It reincarnated as spam. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
He's wasted some time, but he hasn't hurt anyone. Give him one last chance. Ensure that he sees this thread, and if it stops, let him go. Cheers:) Brian ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only stand for ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was addressed. It is probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts that he reserves for honest work. The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030, I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is protected (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and it's also hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser clerks are paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards milnet (domains ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify if they required bank-signed public keys. http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 The search term computer should not be necessary, and for some reason, it is. If the URL breaks, then start with: http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for criminal proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel read access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are about one in ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon and hav an account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should be, for me, who is not in a position to make it. Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the CANSPAM act. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only stand for ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was addressed. It is probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts that he reserves for honest work. The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030, I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is protected (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and it's also hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser clerks are paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards milnet (domains ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify if they required bank-signed public keys. http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 The search term computer should not be necessary, and for some reason, it is. If the URL breaks, then start with: http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for criminal proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel read access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are about one in ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon and hav an account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should be, for me, who is not in a position to make it. Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the CANSPAM act. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress. What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Martijn Hoekstra wrote: snip. We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress. What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard. I tried that with Tiscali to get some action in relation to prolific sockpuppeteer [[User:WJH1992]], but all I got was whinges about the collateral damage. I really think that in relation to Jarlaxle/Grawp, Verizon should be contacted by someone with the standing of, say, Mike Godwin, although I appreciate he'd probably be reluctant to get involved. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I am not a lawyer so perhaps I say this in ignorance, however, I find it hard to believe that the best way of handling this is by arguing that Jeremy Hanson poses a public or common nuisance to the people of Virginia and that we should ask local a judge to summon a special grand jury to investigate the complaint. It seems to me the victims of his death, rape and violence threats and harassment, who are global, not merely located in Virgina, should simply start reporting each instance to local law enforcement and that the Foundation should support this by providing relevant data and also either pursue a complaint through his ISP or support administrators doing so. I think a visit from the police/FBI is more likely to get through to him and his family than this Special Grand Jury stuff. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: Notice that it doesn't say country. It says county. That means all five plaintiffs must be from Virginia. The phrase Special Grand Jury sounds hard to my ears, too. I would love to say that laws back up our editorial policy, and in this case, his phone number or sock puppets that have not yet been officially confirmed, but are about to be and are in operation, are about the best channels, ATM. His activity does violate TOS or AUP, and I do not see Verizon enforcing it anytime soon. Anybody else try to raise interest from secur...@verizon.net ? - Original Message - From: Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp I don't think it'll be hard to get 5 people... X! On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:01 AM [Dec 24, 2008 ], FT2 wrote: :) FT2 On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: Okay...I found something, and maybe I should be looking at federal law, because I do not see it happening reliably. It opens doors to being very slow. I wish that a brick wall that seems to be verizon boded well for their taking action on snail mail. § 48-1. Investigation of complaint by special grand jury. When complaint is made to the circuit court of any county, or the corporation court of any city of this Commonwealth, by five or more citizens of any county, city or town, setting forth the existence of a public or common nuisance, the court, or the judge thereof in vacation, shall summon a special grand jury, in the mode provided by law, to the next term of such court, to specially investigate such complaint. (Code 1919, § 1520.) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: I am not a lawyer so perhaps I say this in ignorance, however, I find it hard to believe that the best way of handling this is by arguing that Jeremy Hanson poses a public or common nuisance to the people of Virginia and that we should ask local a judge to summon a special grand jury to investigate the complaint. It seems to me the victims of his death, rape and violence threats and harassment, who are global, not merely located in Virgina, should simply start reporting each instance to local law enforcement and that the Foundation should support this by providing relevant data and also either pursue a complaint through his ISP or support administrators doing so. I think a visit from the police/FBI is more likely to get through to him and his family than this Special Grand Jury stuff. I agree. It may very well be a federal offense to use the Internet to make threats of death and violence. It is definetly against state laws. The recipients of the threats should be advised to file complaints with law enforcement. The Foundation should back up the complaints not only with data for the evidence but also with listing of other complaints in other jurisdictions already filed. Elias Friedman A.S., EMT-P ⚕ אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי elipo...@gmail.com http://elipongo.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I called verizon. Answer was a recording referring the case to secur...@verizon.net from which I hav received no response (AFAIK, postmaster@ serves the same purpose at any other ISP). I also called Jeremy Hanson's phone number at 562-431-7852. Yet another answering machine. I left a message explaining that I want to talk to Jeremy Hanson about wikipedia edits that violate editorial policy, plus my phone number and e-mail address. I have not verified that police action follows from our definition of vandalism (which probably doesn't need definition, because it is never as careful as graffiti). When I checked the state laws of Virginia, vandalism was about archaeology. Don't wreck the art. Don't break or advertize on the stalactites. I would follow up with a call to police, and I did, and I had to retract my statement, because I could not back up what Fran Rogers was saying with *links* to what is stale data on checkuser pages. I will keep digging after my beer. While verizon's terms of service forbid unwanted communication, I hav gotten no response from them via any channel, and I hav tried all of those listed on a whois search. You might want to list verizon in a LONG-TERM ABUSE case for not enforcing their TOS or AUP. Let me know exactly when or where that is. ___ [[user_talk:brewh...@edmc.net|Is now open, thanks.]] [http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Privileged%20Information%20for%20Newbies.HTM] Phil Nash pn007a2...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote in message news:0c822f24571b49ebaebaf408d9d87...@mothere50f7f7b... Martijn Hoekstra wrote: snip. We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress. What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard. I tried that with Tiscali to get some action in relation to prolific sockpuppeteer [[User:WJH1992]], but all I got was whinges about the collateral damage. I really think that in relation to Jarlaxle/Grawp, Verizon should be contacted by someone with the standing of, say, Mike Godwin, although I appreciate he'd probably be reluctant to get involved. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is success for him. X! On Dec 24, 2008, at 5:10 PM [Dec 24, 2008 ], Martijn Hoekstra wrote: On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: For a newcomer to this thread, the abuse is in the what will only stand for ten seconds category, and as far as I know, the user was addressed. It is probably even hard to be sure that Hanson does not hav accounts that he reserves for honest work. The United States Criminal Code, title 18, section 1030, I think we would hav trouble demonstrating that wikipedia is protected (keyword in the legislation) by anything but tedious labour, and it's also hard to show damage in dollar terms, unless all the checkuser clerks are paid. I see nothing, because it's legislation geared towards milnet (domains ending in .mil). Maybe the secure part of wikipedia would qualify if they required bank-signed public keys. http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview +t17t20+608+0++%28computer%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC% 29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281030%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20% 20%20%20%20%20%20 The search term computer should not be necessary, and for some reason, it is. If the URL breaks, then start with: http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml or only the domain name. I do not *think* we hav any basis for criminal proceedings. Physical, yes. ISPs, as far as I know, cannot compel read access to wikipedia. We don't block reads, either. Writers are about one in ten thousand. Hopefully, they know who to complain to at verizon and hav an account, already. Then it's just a matter of shutting down Hanson's accounts, methinks. The hard question is how long the block should be, for me, who is not in a position to make it. Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs) govern the internet, not the CANSPAM act. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l We should really consider the option of making the rangeblock, with a very clear blocked page, that clearly indicated where users can complain (verizon) about not being able to edit. And only we know for sure that Verizon is in the know, that they do realise there is the option that all of their users are getting blocked because this one abusive account, that they are unable or unwilling to adress. What I would like to know is: Who is currently contacting or trying to contact Verizon, and, if we would consider the step of rangeblocking all of Verizon, there should be on site discussion about this first, at least on the administrators noticeboard. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 25/12/2008, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: If we rangeblock all of Verizon, we're giving Grawp exactly what he wants. He wants to cause disruption, and causing a huge rangeblock is success for him. It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't want. It only matters what the wikipedia wants. Probably rangeblocking Verizon would be bad for the Wikipedia's reputation (Anyone can edit except for Verizon users!), Verizon would have to be incredibly unresponsive and acting in incredibly bad faith to have to/really want to do that, but it remains a possibility. There might be a better case though for automatically, temporarily, black holing or edit blocking or simply delaying the edits (until a human can hand check them) of individual IPs/accounts from anywhere on the internet that engage in certain broad patterns of activity. The important thing is to minimise the length/number of times that any particular IP is able to engage in Grawp-like or other stereotypic behaviour. While he/she/they would be able to soon find another IP, it significantly mitigates the damage that can be done, and minimises the cleanup. X! -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Wait until he is at a press conference to throw your shoes at him. -X! On Dec 21, 2008, at 11:11 PM [Dec 21, 2008 ], Charlotte Webb wrote: On 12/21/08, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.n...@gmail.com wrote: Or we could hire someone to throw him a shoe or perhaps a pretzel ;) - What, so he can choke on it? —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Looks like the self-described small giant (Grawp) was doing his thing this morning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/V2score Time in a jail cell should be the ultimate Christmas/Hanukkah present for Grawp. William King (Willking1979) -- From: William King williamcarlk...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in the past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users. William King (Willking1979) -- From: Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if you want to go that route. This has gone on long enough. -Durova On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
The targeted person's reaction is secondary to him. And the targets are, most likely, chosen at random. He is more stimulated by seeing his work there, in print, than anything else. It's like some persons who write graffiti on a wall; they are less interested in the reactions of those who see it, than in looking up and seeing that their work is there. And only strong outside intervention will even begin to stop him. on 12/15/08 11:14 PM, Thomas Larsen at larsen.thoma...@gmail.com wrote: What amazes me is that this guy, a 19-year-old, whose identity is known publicly, is willing to risk his future career life by engaging in silly, disruptive, petty vandalism that would be common from a two-year-old. Having his name and his work out there is the major reason he's doing it. You are trying to rationalize irrational behavior. With this kind of thing, only the solutions can be rational. And what he's doing is illegal, too. He's taking a huge risk. It is also my impression that he has been pretty well protected throughout his life so far. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Well I think he is... I know that there was a case some time ago where excessive vandalism came from the IP of an asylum. On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Michael Everson ever...@evertype.comwrote: On 16 Dec 2008, at 04:14, Thomas Larsen wrote: What amazes me is that this guy, a 19-year-old, whose identity is known publicly, is willing to risk his future career life by engaging in silly, disruptive, petty vandalism that would be common from a two-year-old. It sounds to me as though he were ill, not just stupid. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Whether you can or can't, any way you are correct. - Henry Ford ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
The red tape never ends. Going the other way, from Canada to Virginia, my local EPS (Edmonton Police Service) referred me to the mounties (feds). Jurisdiction issues, ay. I will make up a list of links to the offenses, just in case they actually get back to me and request more information. They still need to know where the relevant ISP is in reference to their logs and admin personnel, so I am glad that the last IP from the mail-bombing of Fran Rogers (71.107.162.158) still reverses to verizon. - Original Message - From: Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp Jay Litwyn wrote: From: Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com: I think the only options remaining are to start reporting him to the police. If anyone else wants to know which police to contact, then these few things might be useful. Basically, you would start with...Is this legal?...I don't want him on my project, because...and this is how I know who he is. You might get some help with that from verizon's abuse contact or their abuse phone number. Sometimes, I'll warn ya, you can get more help from abuse contacts than cops, just because they're equipped to verify that e-mail directed at you came through them. OrgName:Verizon Internet Services Inc. OrgID: VRIS Address:1880 Campus Commons Dr City: Reston StateProv: VA PostalCode: 20191 Country:US This is not the relevant police department. The relevant police department is the local police department of the victim, not the attacker. The victim must file a complaint locally, and then the local police will take the necessary steps to liase with the jurisdiction of the attacker. I learnt this a few years ago when dealing with a certain Canadian. -- Tim Starling ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
It would help if the list is posted somewhere, so others who are reporting can use the list too. X! On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:58 PM [Dec 16, 2008 ], Jay Litwyn wrote: The red tape never ends. Going the other way, from Canada to Virginia, my local EPS (Edmonton Police Service) referred me to the mounties (feds). Jurisdiction issues, ay. I will make up a list of links to the offenses, just in case they actually get back to me and request more information. They still need to know where the relevant ISP is in reference to their logs and admin personnel, so I am glad that the last IP from the mail- bombing of Fran Rogers (71.107.162.158) still reverses to verizon. - Original Message - From: Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp Jay Litwyn wrote: From: Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com: I think the only options remaining are to start reporting him to the police. If anyone else wants to know which police to contact, then these few things might be useful. Basically, you would start with...Is this legal?...I don't want him on my project, because...and this is how I know who he is. You might get some help with that from verizon's abuse contact or their abuse phone number. Sometimes, I'll warn ya, you can get more help from abuse contacts than cops, just because they're equipped to verify that e-mail directed at you came through them. OrgName:Verizon Internet Services Inc. OrgID: VRIS Address:1880 Campus Commons Dr City: Reston StateProv: VA PostalCode: 20191 Country:US This is not the relevant police department. The relevant police department is the local police department of the victim, not the attacker. The victim must file a complaint locally, and then the local police will take the necessary steps to liase with the jurisdiction of the attacker. I learnt this a few years ago when dealing with a certain Canadian. -- Tim Starling ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I don't like this writing that sounds like mind-reading. There's a point where one of his sock puppets is complaining about Psychonaut, which is one of his early creations beating himself up. He is more stimulated by seeing his work there, in print, than anything else. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
It makes sense to take a further action with this vandal. Unlike every internet troll I have handled so far, Grawp doesn't stop when he dosen't get the reaction he wants. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:04 AM, Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws wrote: You all may remember [[User:JarlaxleArtemis]], who has been editing the English Wikipedia since 2004, at age 15. Originally he was an apparently good-faith editor, but was sanctioned by ArbCom in early 2005 for somewhat immature outbursts, copyright violations, and erratic behavior; eventually he pulled such stunts as putting his teacher's e-mail address on his userpage encouraging people to harass the fucking bitch, e-mail bombing people who deleted his copyvios, and finally impersonating users and vandalizing with what would come to be hundreds of sockpuppets, all while claiming to be the victim. He was banned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/JarlaxleArte mis_2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/JarlaxleArtemis_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/Jarlaxl eArtemis http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/Jarlax leArtemisaction=editoldid=117471376http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/JarlaxleArtemisaction=editoldid=117471376 action=editoldid=117471376 He sockpuppeted and vandalized for a while after that, but apparently disappeared in 2006. One would have hoped maybe he grew out of his teenage phase and decided to get on with doing something productive instead. But sadly, the story doesn't end there. In mid-2007, he reappeared with a new persona... the move-vandal Grawp. Unlike his ostensible predecessor Willy on Wheels, who at least had a harmless light-hearted flair to him, as Grawp Jarlaxle relished in specifically targeting users and sticking their personal information (usually gleaned from Daniel Brandt's website) in his page-move titles along with death threats and rape threats. Eventually we discovered that Grawp was in fact JarlaxleArtemis, and he only got more persistent and venomous (probably because as Jarlaxle, he was very open about his real-life identity and location himself.) About a week ago, having been one of Jarlaxle's recent targets, I decided to take matters into my own hand, and found his mother's contact information and wrote to her to inform her of the awful misdeeds her son's been up to. (While Jarlaxle is 19, he lives with his mother, and performs most of his vandalism from her Internet connection.) Instead of replying to me, however, she complained to OTRS that I was falsely accusing her son, who she insisted was JarlaxleArtemis but not Grawp. Jarlaxle then proceeded to prove her wrong... by vandalizing multiple wikis as Grawp later that night from the same IP address his mother sent her e-mail from. The ticket was handed to ArbCom, who replied to her with this evidence and the assurance that her son was in fact the one responsible... but received a response that she didn't believe them, didn't care, and was blocking all further e-mail from Wikimedia. (Though it's been suggested that Jarlaxle himself may have written that mail.) And he's continued to vandalize as recently as tonight. Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? -Fran ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Whether you can or can't, any way you are correct. - Henry Ford ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
on 12/15/08 7:58 PM, Kevin Wong at wikipedianmarl...@gmail.com wrote: It makes sense to take a further action with this vandal. Unlike every internet troll I have handled so far, Grawp doesn't stop when he dosen't get the reaction he wants. Kevin, The targeted person's reaction is secondary to him. And the targets are, most likely, chosen at random. He is more stimulated by seeing his work there, in print, than anything else. It's like some persons who write graffiti on a wall; they are less interested in the reactions of those who see it, than in looking up and seeing that their work is there. And only strong outside intervention will even begin to stop him. Marc Riddell On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:04 AM, Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws wrote: You all may remember [[User:JarlaxleArtemis]], who has been editing the English Wikipedia since 2004, at age 15. Originally he was an apparently good-faith editor, but was sanctioned by ArbCom in early 2005 for somewhat immature outbursts, copyright violations, and erratic behavior; eventually he pulled such stunts as putting his teacher's e-mail address on his userpage encouraging people to harass the fucking bitch, e-mail bombing people who deleted his copyvios, and finally impersonating users and vandalizing with what would come to be hundreds of sockpuppets, all while claiming to be the victim. He was banned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/JarlaxleArte mis_2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jarlaxl eArtemis_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/Jarlaxl eArtemis http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/Jarlax leArtemisaction=editoldid=117471376http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit le=User:Linuxbeak/Admin_stuff/JarlaxleArtemisaction=editoldid=117471376 action=editoldid=117471376 He sockpuppeted and vandalized for a while after that, but apparently disappeared in 2006. One would have hoped maybe he grew out of his teenage phase and decided to get on with doing something productive instead. But sadly, the story doesn't end there. In mid-2007, he reappeared with a new persona... the move-vandal Grawp. Unlike his ostensible predecessor Willy on Wheels, who at least had a harmless light-hearted flair to him, as Grawp Jarlaxle relished in specifically targeting users and sticking their personal information (usually gleaned from Daniel Brandt's website) in his page-move titles along with death threats and rape threats. Eventually we discovered that Grawp was in fact JarlaxleArtemis, and he only got more persistent and venomous (probably because as Jarlaxle, he was very open about his real-life identity and location himself.) About a week ago, having been one of Jarlaxle's recent targets, I decided to take matters into my own hand, and found his mother's contact information and wrote to her to inform her of the awful misdeeds her son's been up to. (While Jarlaxle is 19, he lives with his mother, and performs most of his vandalism from her Internet connection.) Instead of replying to me, however, she complained to OTRS that I was falsely accusing her son, who she insisted was JarlaxleArtemis but not Grawp. Jarlaxle then proceeded to prove her wrong... by vandalizing multiple wikis as Grawp later that night from the same IP address his mother sent her e-mail from. The ticket was handed to ArbCom, who replied to her with this evidence and the assurance that her son was in fact the one responsible... but received a response that she didn't believe them, didn't care, and was blocking all further e-mail from Wikimedia. (Though it's been suggested that Jarlaxle himself may have written that mail.) And he's continued to vandalize as recently as tonight. Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? -Fran ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Hi, The targeted person's reaction is secondary to him. And the targets are, most likely, chosen at random. He is more stimulated by seeing his work there, in print, than anything else. It's like some persons who write graffiti on a wall; they are less interested in the reactions of those who see it, than in looking up and seeing that their work is there. And only strong outside intervention will even begin to stop him. What amazes me is that this guy, a 19-year-old, whose identity is known publicly, is willing to risk his future career life by engaging in silly, disruptive, petty vandalism that would be common from a two-year-old. And what he's doing is illegal, too. He's taking a huge risk. Why can't some people simply apologise and move on, or at least move on? There are other things that are far more worthy of one's time, Wikipedia-related and not. --Thomas Larsen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:19 AM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote: From: Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com: I think the only options remaining are to start reporting him to the police. If anyone else wants to know which police to contact, then these few things might be useful. Basically, you would start with...Is this legal?...I don't want him on my project, because...and this is how I know who he is. You might get some help with that from verizon's abuse contact or their abuse phone number. Sometimes, I'll warn ya, you can get more help from abuse contacts than cops, just because they're equipped to verify that e-mail directed at you came through them. I agree that sometimes it can be more effective going through the ISP and if they were able to confirm to the mother that, yes, in fact, this was done from your IP address, it might help snap her out of her obvious denial. However, in reference to the police, it's not just a matter of not wanting him on the project - he's making death threats and threats of sexual violence against not only our editors and admins but their children as well. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
{{tl|solockhimup}}
Heaven knows he deserves it.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:06:34 +1100
From: sarahew...@gmail.com
To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:19 AM, Jay Litwyn brewh...@edmc.net wrote:
From: Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com:
I think the only options remaining are to start reporting him to the
police.
If anyone else wants to know which police to contact, then these few things
might be useful. Basically, you would start with...Is this legal?...I don't
want him on my project, because...and this is how I know who he is. You
might get some help with that from verizon's abuse contact or their abuse
phone number. Sometimes, I'll warn ya, you can get more help from abuse
contacts than cops, just because they're equipped to verify that e-mail
directed at you came through them.
I agree that sometimes it can be more effective going through the ISP and if
they were able to confirm to the mother that, yes, in fact, this was done
from your IP address, it might help snap her out of her obvious denial.
However, in reference to the police, it's not just a matter of not wanting
him on the project - he's making death threats and threats of sexual
violence against not only our editors and admins but their children as well.
___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 12/11/08, Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws wrote: But sadly, the story doesn't end there. In mid-2007, he reappeared with a new persona... the move-vandal Grawp. Unlike his ostensible predecessor Willy on Wheels, who at least had a harmless light-hearted flair to him, as Grawp Jarlaxle relished in specifically targeting users and sticking their personal information (usually gleaned from Daniel Brandt's website) in his page-move titles along with death threats and rape threats. Eventually we discovered that Grawp was in fact JarlaxleArtemis, and he only got more persistent and venomous (probably because as Jarlaxle, he was very open about his real-life identity and location himself.) I have just discovered that Grawp is a Tori Amos fan. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yes,_Anastasiadiff=prevoldid=200374324 Notice the url of the YouTube link. —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Jay Litwyn wrote: From: Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com: I think the only options remaining are to start reporting him to the police. If anyone else wants to know which police to contact, then these few things might be useful. Basically, you would start with...Is this legal?...I don't want him on my project, because...and this is how I know who he is. You might get some help with that from verizon's abuse contact or their abuse phone number. Sometimes, I'll warn ya, you can get more help from abuse contacts than cops, just because they're equipped to verify that e-mail directed at you came through them. OrgName:Verizon Internet Services Inc. OrgID: VRIS Address:1880 Campus Commons Dr City: Reston StateProv: VA PostalCode: 20191 Country:US This is not the relevant police department. The relevant police department is the local police department of the victim, not the attacker. The victim must file a complaint locally, and then the local police will take the necessary steps to liase with the jurisdiction of the attacker. I learnt this a few years ago when dealing with a certain Canadian. -- Tim Starling ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. -Fran -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.comwrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in the past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users. William King (Willking1979) -- From: Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if you want to go that route. This has gone on long enough. -Durova On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Let's remember that we may have to do something about Grawp and ED, as he is harassing users there too. On Dec 13, 2008, at 8:45 PM [Dec 13, 2008 ], Durova wrote: Okay, what's the best venue for a petition? On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 4:14 PM, William King williamcarlk...@gmail.comwrote: I strongly agree. Something must be done very soon. I noticed just in the past hour or so on RC patrol, Grawp harassed a few more users. William King (Willking1979) -- From: Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:24 PM To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp There would be no shortage of people to sign a petition to the ISP, if you want to go that route. This has gone on long enough. -Durova On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:19 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/11 Fran Rogers f...@nutmeg.ws: Personally, I'm utterly bamboozled. This kid is nineteen years old and in college; he's an adult, and he has his entire life ahead of him. Yet he still continues to anonymously threaten and harass people on the Internet, even though he's clearly stepped into illegal territory, his identity is known along with reams of evidence of his misdeeds connecting them to him, and his parent upon whom he's still dependent has been alerted. And he still soldiers on, using Mom's broadband to move pages on Wikipedia to titles I will rape and murder (insert admin here). What could possibly be running through his mind? And how can he be stopped? If he's making threats of violence and stalking then you should contact his local police. They'll probably at least discuss it with him and he'll either stop or eventually criminal proceedings will occur. Doesn't sound like there's any other option. Forensic analysis of his computer could doubtless prove it was him doing this, not his mother who shares the same IP. You could also contact his ISP. It puts them in a bad light to have someone like that on their networks and nearly always violates TC- they might well want to terminate his service. But he'll probably just get another ISP; but depending on where he lives there might not be many ISPs in his area. Perhaps the Foundation could send a cease-and-desist letter to both her and him, cc the ISP? -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
