Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Wow, what a pleasant surprise. Glad to hear from you! Thinkin of gettin back into WISP stuff... What are you crazy :-) Are you a glutton for punishment :-) No seriously, this is still an existing industry, just a lot of new competitions and stragegies necessary to survive. On the 900 Mesh... The first thing to realize is that no business model is predictable and guaranteed re-createable in the 900Mhz world. Expecially not In-Town. Don't get me wrong, we use 900Mhz all the time, its a savior. Its jsut near impossible to predict in advance where it will work, due to noise in the environment. A couple over zealous Paging companies and Scada guys in town can bring the noise floor down to -50dn making any 900Mhz system unusable, and rarely OFDM product can get large enough SNR to get higher speeds in suburbia. But in those Tree (foliage) rick environments, 900Mhz is golden. And with new Multi-Port Mainboards, taking a chance to add a 900Mhz relay option in an existing system is just a bit over $100 more or so. As for MESH, I'm not a fan of any of the MESH software out there. I still do everything static or with common well know routing protocols. But a value proposition that is undenyable are systems that enable multiple radio cards for very little money, because it removes the cost of an AP to relay service on. Its now cost effective to make a subscriber a broadcaster. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:16 PM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt. Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio system. I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems. I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and advice. The concept goes something like this. The muni network model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it. Coming into an urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless models don't always work. I posted the following statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz network. In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back negative. Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of the country. This is the market that has few if any
[WISPA] FCC Service Code
What are the FCC service codes of other users of 900 MHz? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Matt Liotta wrote: Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. I should also add that there isn't much point in buying Cogent at carrier hotels. Tier 1 providers are available for the same or cheaper than Cogent in many cases. Cogent only tends to be cheaper outside carrier hotels. One thing to consider for those who understand Cogent's peering problems is that Cogent has a rather good BGP community setup. You can buy transit from them and then using community strings turn it into a peering session. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
I have yet to see anyone go under $15 on 100 megs. That said, I haven't really been looking in a few months. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Matt Liotta wrote: Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. I should also add that there isn't much point in buying Cogent at carrier hotels. Tier 1 providers are available for the same or cheaper than Cogent in many cases. Cogent only tends to be cheaper outside carrier hotels. One thing to consider for those who understand Cogent's peering problems is that Cogent has a rather good BGP community setup. You can buy transit from them and then using community strings turn it into a peering session. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Mike Hammett wrote: I have yet to see anyone go under $15 on 100 megs. That said, I haven't really been looking in a few months. Tier 1 is available for under $15. Of course the price per meg gets people all screwed up since most people don't want 100 megs. For example, let's say you are looking for 20 meg commit burstable to 100. Your only choice with Cogent is 100 megs for $15. However, paying retail for Level3 will get 20 meg commit for $45 per meg, which is much higher than $15, but at the 20 meg level is only $900 MRC vs. Cogent's $1,500 MRC. Further, let's say you accept that no carrier no matter how good they are is perfect. That means you need more than one carrier. Now let's say you do about 50Mbps sustained and want to burst higher. Again, with Cogent you need to by 100 megs for $1,500 and then some other carrier. Unfortunately, buying the 100 megs is a waste since if you get another carrier you will use even less Cogent bandwidth. Now let's say you pickup 20 megs from Savvis for $30, 20 megs from GBLX for $30, and 20 megs from Telia for $20. That would mean you have a total commit across carriers of 60 megs and are paying a total of $1,400. Additionally, that allows you to burst up to 300 megs across the 3 carriers. Obviously, there is a whole host of issues and solutions that can come with mix and matching providers, but one thing seems to always be true; Cogent's inflexibility in their services makes it harder to put them in the mix. In our case, we don't sell bandwidth as cheap as Cogent or even as some of the tier 1s we buy from. We believe our bandwidth is more valuable for 3 reasons. First, we will see you any commit you want and allow it to burst as high as you want. Want 10 meg commit on a GigE? Bring it on. This allows you to only pay for what you use. Just like other carriers the price per meg drops as you buy more, but not buying excess capacity even at a higher rate is cheaper. Second, we buy from every tier 1 that has interesting routes. After buying enough tier 1s additional providers don't make the routing any better. Additionally, we peer with every major content provider and attempt to peer with tier 2 and tier 3 providers when we can. The big guys like to play favorites with peering policies, while we just want the best routes. Third, we understand what BGP is and is not. BGP has no concept for the performance of routes. Performance matters! We route optimize our bandwidth to ensure not the shortest or cheapest route, but the best performing route. At the end of the day, all of our businesses are measured by the quality of reliability of our internet service. Many WISPs like to focus on the wireless portion, but it is the sum of the parts that matters. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
I do agree with what you say, but in the access business too much bandwidth is never enough. This kind of goes full circle to Rick's original post. People will be wanting more bandwidth. If you're using 20 megs now, expect to use 100 megs in a short couple of years. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Mike Hammett wrote: I have yet to see anyone go under $15 on 100 megs. That said, I haven't really been looking in a few months. Tier 1 is available for under $15. Of course the price per meg gets people all screwed up since most people don't want 100 megs. For example, let's say you are looking for 20 meg commit burstable to 100. Your only choice with Cogent is 100 megs for $15. However, paying retail for Level3 will get 20 meg commit for $45 per meg, which is much higher than $15, but at the 20 meg level is only $900 MRC vs. Cogent's $1,500 MRC. Further, let's say you accept that no carrier no matter how good they are is perfect. That means you need more than one carrier. Now let's say you do about 50Mbps sustained and want to burst higher. Again, with Cogent you need to by 100 megs for $1,500 and then some other carrier. Unfortunately, buying the 100 megs is a waste since if you get another carrier you will use even less Cogent bandwidth. Now let's say you pickup 20 megs from Savvis for $30, 20 megs from GBLX for $30, and 20 megs from Telia for $20. That would mean you have a total commit across carriers of 60 megs and are paying a total of $1,400. Additionally, that allows you to burst up to 300 megs across the 3 carriers. Obviously, there is a whole host of issues and solutions that can come with mix and matching providers, but one thing seems to always be true; Cogent's inflexibility in their services makes it harder to put them in the mix. In our case, we don't sell bandwidth as cheap as Cogent or even as some of the tier 1s we buy from. We believe our bandwidth is more valuable for 3 reasons. First, we will see you any commit you want and allow it to burst as high as you want. Want 10 meg commit on a GigE? Bring it on. This allows you to only pay for what you use. Just like other carriers the price per meg drops as you buy more, but not buying excess capacity even at a higher rate is cheaper. Second, we buy from every tier 1 that has interesting routes. After buying enough tier 1s additional providers don't make the routing any better. Additionally, we peer with every major content provider and attempt to peer with tier 2 and tier 3 providers when we can. The big guys like to play favorites with peering policies, while we just want the best routes. Third, we understand what BGP is and is not. BGP has no concept for the performance of routes. Performance matters! We route optimize our bandwidth to ensure not the shortest or cheapest route, but the best performing route. At the end of the day, all of our businesses are measured by the quality of reliability of our internet service. Many WISPs like to focus on the wireless portion, but it is the sum of the parts that matters. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Mike Hammett wrote: I do agree with what you say, but in the access business too much bandwidth is never enough. This kind of goes full circle to Rick's original post. People will be wanting more bandwidth. If you're using 20 megs now, expect to use 100 megs in a short couple of years. That may be, but why pay now for what you might use in the future? Why not just pay for what you need when you need it? -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Yes they have. Metricom-Ricochet. They failed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allen Marsalis Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before. Which is not a good sign to me. That's a sign that my idea probably won't work. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Did they fail because of the immature technology or a failed business plan? Would the more mature technology available today have made an impact on Metricom-Ricochets ultimate success or failure? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks Yes they have. Metricom-Ricochet. They failed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allen Marsalis Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before. Which is not a good sign to me. That's a sign that my idea probably won't work. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.14/999 - Release Date: 9/10/2007 5:43 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.14/999 - Release Date: 9/10/2007 5:43 PM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Rick Harnish wrote: Did they fail because of the immature technology or a failed business plan? Would the more mature technology available today have made an impact on Metricom-Ricochets ultimate success or failure? I was a Ricochet user in the Bay Area and was quite happy with the service even at its slow speed. They were also profitable in the Bay Area. Unfortunately, it was during the boom and they expanded too rapidly. Ultimately, they ran out of money. Today it could never compete with 3G services offered by the cell carriers. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Everyone else mostly gets along together. Obviously no one likes their competition. Every few years one of Cogent's peers de-peers them, causing a big ruckus. You can see what's going on via NANOG and ISP-Bandwidth. Lately the opinion is that a few years ago Cogent wasn't worth their cheap price due to quality issues. I'd say th e past year or two things seem to have turned around... other than Level(3) depeering them a couple years ago. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
I think they failed via a strategic investment by some of the larger players. (ATT I think?). The investment was large and like a typical dot-com they spent and expanded far faster than they should have 'cause hey, there's a second round coming and when they went looking for that second round, the large investor played their strategy and said no second round for you! I have been on several rooftops in WA state that have dual 2.4/900 90* 15db sectors either lying on the roof outside or in the shelter in the landlords hope that someone will come looking for them. IIRC didn't metrocom have some deal with the utilities along the lines of if you let us mount this stuff on your light-poles, we'll let you read meters via our radios? Can anyone shed light on that? ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks Rick Harnish wrote: Did they fail because of the immature technology or a failed business plan? Would the more mature technology available today have made an impact on Metricom-Ricochets ultimate success or failure? I was a Ricochet user in the Bay Area and was quite happy with the service even at its slow speed. They were also profitable in the Bay Area. Unfortunately, it was during the boom and they expanded too rapidly. Ultimately, they ran out of money. Today it could never compete with 3G services offered by the cell carriers. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. So if Matt says Cogent is the worse, I want him to back it up with facts. I can point to some facts that say otherwise. Thier revenues increase every quarter, and their bit price goes down. How can everyone not like cogent, when their sales keeps going up? Or why do some people not like cogent? Rick Harnish wrote: George, I have read this email three times and still can't determine whether you are sincerely asking a question(s) or whether you are stirring the pot here. Please clarify professionally. I actually have been enjoying Matt's posts this morning. I found them to be very informative. While we don't purchase anything from Cogent, I still like to have my thumb on the pulse of the whole industry, from top to bottom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
I'd say they were sincere... at least that's how I took it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent George, I have read this email three times and still can't determine whether you are sincerely asking a question(s) or whether you are stirring the pot here. Please clarify professionally. I actually have been enjoying Matt's posts this morning. I found them to be very informative. While we don't purchase anything from Cogent, I still like to have my thumb on the pulse of the whole industry, from top to bottom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Mike, you've been listening to too many sales droids on the isp-bandwidth list and old time operators that would really like to charge us 250.00 per meg. George Mike Hammett wrote: Everyone else mostly gets along together. Obviously no one likes their competition. Every few years one of Cogent's peers de-peers them, causing a big ruckus. You can see what's going on via NANOG and ISP-Bandwidth. Lately the opinion is that a few years ago Cogent wasn't worth their cheap price due to quality issues. I'd say th e past year or two things seem to have turned around... other than Level(3) depeering them a couple years ago. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
I am sincere, and I never intentionally stir the pot. But when facts are miscrewed, I prefer to point out what I perceive is a discrepancy. Mike Hammett wrote: I'd say they were sincere... at least that's how I took it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent George, I have read this email three times and still can't determine whether you are sincerely asking a question(s) or whether you are stirring the pot here. Please clarify professionally. I actually have been enjoying Matt's posts this morning. I found them to be very informative. While we don't purchase anything from Cogent, I still like to have my thumb on the pulse of the whole industry, from top to bottom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits
RE: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
That clarifies it. I just wasn't following your line of questions as they seemed rather vague. However, as I said, I'm not very acquainted with Cogent. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. So if Matt says Cogent is the worse, I want him to back it up with facts. I can point to some facts that say otherwise. Thier revenues increase every quarter, and their bit price goes down. How can everyone not like cogent, when their sales keeps going up? Or why do some people not like cogent? Rick Harnish wrote: George, I have read this email three times and still can't determine whether you are sincerely asking a question(s) or whether you are stirring the pot here. Please clarify professionally. I actually have been enjoying Matt's posts this morning. I found them to be very informative. While we don't purchase anything from Cogent, I still like to have my thumb on the pulse of the whole industry, from top to bottom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent Widely known where Matt? I'd like to know how you guys get the pulse of what everyone is thinking. As for being the red headed step child nobody likes Mike, Do you think they actually like each other, especially one as aggressive as Cogent who is making the others drop their pricing? Matt Liotta wrote: Matt wrote: Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider? Pros and cons? Cogent is awful and widely known for it. Nevertheless, the do have an important place in the industry. If you use them for an upstream make sure you have another one and understand enough about BGP to get around the traffic engineering they do. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007 10:56 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
George Rogato wrote: I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. Understood, but we don't resell other bandwidth; we sell our own. We are not a tier 1, but we do operate a national backbone and believe there are reasons to chose us over the competition as I outlined in a previous email. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. It does make sense, but where there is smoke there is fire. Cogent is a good company and is good at what they do. There is nothing wrong with their network from a technical sense. They have no pricing flexibility, which I explained in a previous email, which can be both good and bad depending on the situation. See http://www.renesys.com/blog/2007/08/cogents_secret_weapon.shtml for a positive spin on that. Really, Cogent's performance problems are more political than technical, but they exist nevertheless. We have a unique view into Cogent's network in that we buy a significant amount of services from them, we wirelessly connect some of their customers to their network, we see their global internet performance as any other NSP would that is interconnected in multiple cities, and we participate on the NANOG and outages mailing lists. All of this allows us to see their problems, which they have on a regular basis. Most of their problems are peering related, which is not their fault, but it is their problem. For example, Cogent hardly peers at all on the east coast except in DC, NYC, and Miami. See http://cogentco.com/htdocs/peering.php. That means here in Atlanta getting to and from Cogent's network and other's means a trip through DC. This is the case throughout the country and it means that Cogent inherently has poorer performance than other similar size networks. Understand this, Cogent is one of the largest networks in the world, but its interconnection with the other top 10 networks is poor. Our little company has more peering with major networks than Cogent in Atlanta. Again, you can buy better bandwidth than Cogent for less than Cogent. Cogent is no longer the low priced leader. We just need people to think they are, so others continue to drop their price and aggressively peer in a fight to beat Cogent. Cogent is the company to beat from a sales perspective as they are probably the best executed. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
If you sell a national backbone what do you have in North Texas? I need bandwidth desperately and cant find anything less than about $250/Meg. Jory Privett WCCS - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent George Rogato wrote: I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. Understood, but we don't resell other bandwidth; we sell our own. We are not a tier 1, but we do operate a national backbone and believe there are reasons to chose us over the competition as I outlined in a previous email. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. It does make sense, but where there is smoke there is fire. Cogent is a good company and is good at what they do. There is nothing wrong with their network from a technical sense. They have no pricing flexibility, which I explained in a previous email, which can be both good and bad depending on the situation. See http://www.renesys.com/blog/2007/08/cogents_secret_weapon.shtml for a positive spin on that. Really, Cogent's performance problems are more political than technical, but they exist nevertheless. We have a unique view into Cogent's network in that we buy a significant amount of services from them, we wirelessly connect some of their customers to their network, we see their global internet performance as any other NSP would that is interconnected in multiple cities, and we participate on the NANOG and outages mailing lists. All of this allows us to see their problems, which they have on a regular basis. Most of their problems are peering related, which is not their fault, but it is their problem. For example, Cogent hardly peers at all on the east coast except in DC, NYC, and Miami. See http://cogentco.com/htdocs/peering.php. That means here in Atlanta getting to and from Cogent's network and other's means a trip through DC. This is the case throughout the country and it means that Cogent inherently has poorer performance than other similar size networks. Understand this, Cogent is one of the largest networks in the world, but its interconnection with the other top 10 networks is poor. Our little company has more peering with major networks than Cogent in Atlanta. Again, you can buy better bandwidth than Cogent for less than Cogent. Cogent is no longer the low priced leader. We just need people to think they are, so others continue to drop their price and aggressively peer in a fight to beat Cogent. Cogent is the company to beat from a sales perspective as they are probably the best executed. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Sorry was supposed to be off-list Doh... Jory - Original Message - From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent If you sell a national backbone what do you have in North Texas? I need bandwidth desperately and cant find anything less than about $250/Meg. Jory Privett WCCS - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent George Rogato wrote: I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. Understood, but we don't resell other bandwidth; we sell our own. We are not a tier 1, but we do operate a national backbone and believe there are reasons to chose us over the competition as I outlined in a previous email. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. It does make sense, but where there is smoke there is fire. Cogent is a good company and is good at what they do. There is nothing wrong with their network from a technical sense. They have no pricing flexibility, which I explained in a previous email, which can be both good and bad depending on the situation. See http://www.renesys.com/blog/2007/08/cogents_secret_weapon.shtml for a positive spin on that. Really, Cogent's performance problems are more political than technical, but they exist nevertheless. We have a unique view into Cogent's network in that we buy a significant amount of services from them, we wirelessly connect some of their customers to their network, we see their global internet performance as any other NSP would that is interconnected in multiple cities, and we participate on the NANOG and outages mailing lists. All of this allows us to see their problems, which they have on a regular basis. Most of their problems are peering related, which is not their fault, but it is their problem. For example, Cogent hardly peers at all on the east coast except in DC, NYC, and Miami. See http://cogentco.com/htdocs/peering.php. That means here in Atlanta getting to and from Cogent's network and other's means a trip through DC. This is the case throughout the country and it means that Cogent inherently has poorer performance than other similar size networks. Understand this, Cogent is one of the largest networks in the world, but its interconnection with the other top 10 networks is poor. Our little company has more peering with major networks than Cogent in Atlanta. Again, you can buy better bandwidth than Cogent for less than Cogent. Cogent is no longer the low priced leader. We just need people to think they are, so others continue to drop their price and aggressively peer in a fight to beat Cogent. Cogent is the company to beat from a sales perspective as they are probably the best executed. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Good post, Matt. Usually if one's not for Cogent, they have nothing good to say about them. You were fair, however. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent George Rogato wrote: I'm very serious. I've read it over and over again on the various list from those who resell other bandwidth bashing cogent. Understood, but we don't resell other bandwidth; we sell our own. We are not a tier 1, but we do operate a national backbone and believe there are reasons to chose us over the competition as I outlined in a previous email. It's a stratergy, if you sell high, bash the low. makes sense. It does make sense, but where there is smoke there is fire. Cogent is a good company and is good at what they do. There is nothing wrong with their network from a technical sense. They have no pricing flexibility, which I explained in a previous email, which can be both good and bad depending on the situation. See http://www.renesys.com/blog/2007/08/cogents_secret_weapon.shtml for a positive spin on that. Really, Cogent's performance problems are more political than technical, but they exist nevertheless. We have a unique view into Cogent's network in that we buy a significant amount of services from them, we wirelessly connect some of their customers to their network, we see their global internet performance as any other NSP would that is interconnected in multiple cities, and we participate on the NANOG and outages mailing lists. All of this allows us to see their problems, which they have on a regular basis. Most of their problems are peering related, which is not their fault, but it is their problem. For example, Cogent hardly peers at all on the east coast except in DC, NYC, and Miami. See http://cogentco.com/htdocs/peering.php. That means here in Atlanta getting to and from Cogent's network and other's means a trip through DC. This is the case throughout the country and it means that Cogent inherently has poorer performance than other similar size networks. Understand this, Cogent is one of the largest networks in the world, but its interconnection with the other top 10 networks is poor. Our little company has more peering with major networks than Cogent in Atlanta. Again, you can buy better bandwidth than Cogent for less than Cogent. Cogent is no longer the low priced leader. We just need people to think they are, so others continue to drop their price and aggressively peer in a fight to beat Cogent. Cogent is the company to beat from a sales perspective as they are probably the best executed. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PowerCode
Anyone use their billing BMU solutions? Good/bad/ugly? Thanks. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent
Jory Privett wrote: If you sell a national backbone what do you have in North Texas? I need bandwidth desperately and cant find anything less than about $250/Meg. I know you meant to send this offlist and ultimately, you did, but I figured I would respond onlist in case others have a similar. In fact, this whole thread started with the concept that you shouldn't have to pay $250/meg. First of all, we are only built out in major cities, so we don't have a network near you. However, cheaper bandwidth shouldn't be too far away. I know there are plenty of wireless companies operating in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and it looks like you are about 40 miles outside of Fort Worth. Have you talked to another wireless company about bandwidth? I believe BelWave is in Fort Worth and their network may include parts of North West Fort Worth making the shot even less than 40 miles. I happened to ask offlist for some information on the closest tower Jory has to Fort Worth. Using that information I came up with the attached backhaul figured using 5800Mhz. The other side of the shot is the D.R. Horton Tower, which I would think cheaper bandwidth would be available. It would also appear that plenty of other buildings should be accessible. -Matt inline: path.png ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] IP Assignments
I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. If you are multi-homed you can request a /24 immediately. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
That was in the multi-homed section of the web site as I believe everyone s hould be multi-homed. Could you provide documentation that one can get a /24 immediately if multi-homed? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. If you are multi-homed you can request a /24 immediately. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
Mike Hammett wrote: That was in the multi-homed section of the web site as I believe everyone s hould be multi-homed. Could you provide documentation that one can get a /24 immediately if multi-homed? NPRM 4.2.3.6 This policy allows a downstream customer's multihoming requirement to serve as justification for a /24 reassignment from their upstream ISP, regardless of host requirements. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html The above seems to suggest PA space though. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 15:27 -0400, Matt Liotta wrote: Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. If you are multi-homed you can request a /24 immediately. I thought that proposed policy was rejected. I thought the smallest was /22 -Ryan -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
At 02:24 PM 9/12/2007, Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. Yeah but will everyone route a /22?? I am no routing guru but in the old days, you had to have a /19 for sprint to route it for instance. I bought a /20 a couple of years later and had no problems out of Sprint or anyone. Perhaps today's routers have so much memory, the BGP views fit with no problem. I remember back when 64M would do the job. Then 256M, etc. But its news to be if a /22 is fully accepted in all router tables. Wow only here for a couple of days and learning stuff already. :) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
Allen Marsalis wrote: Yeah but will everyone route a /22?? I am no routing guru but in the old days, you had to have a /19 for sprint to route it for instance. I bought a /20 a couple of years later and had no problems out of Sprint or anyone. Perhaps today's routers have so much memory, the BGP views fit with no problem. I remember back when 64M would do the job. Then 256M, etc. But its news to be if a /22 is fully accepted in all router tables. Wow only here for a couple of days and learning stuff already. :) Right now /24 are supposed to be globally routeable. However, about 30% of existing equipment can only handle 244,000 routes and the global table currently has ~236,000, so we are only months away from people starting to filter /24s. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
That's what's currently on their web site. I'd assume that if it wasn't current policy, it wouldn't be on their site. Are you saying you thought one needed to demonstrate a /22 to get your own assignment? That's what I was saying with that post, was that it has changed one bit and now you only need two /24s (one /23). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ryan Langseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 15:27 -0400, Matt Liotta wrote: Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. If you are multi-homed you can request a /24 immediately. I thought that proposed policy was rejected. I thought the smallest was /22 -Ryan -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
I like the sounds of that. It would be nice to have a /24 instead of a block of IP addresses that isn't routable (provided to me in 10 address blocks). I could then do proper routing on my network. Being PA space would mean that it would have a higher chance of being routable instead of PI /24. Worst case, it comes in on one provider if someone else doesn't accept that length. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments Mike Hammett wrote: That was in the multi-homed section of the web site as I believe everyone s hould be multi-homed. Could you provide documentation that one can get a /24 immediately if multi-homed? NPRM 4.2.3.6 This policy allows a downstream customer's multihoming requirement to serve as justification for a /24 reassignment from their upstream ISP, regardless of host requirements. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html The above seems to suggest PA space though. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
I guess that's a good point. I may be able to get it, but will it be routable? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments At 02:24 PM 9/12/2007, Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. Yeah but will everyone route a /22?? I am no routing guru but in the old days, you had to have a /19 for sprint to route it for instance. I bought a /20 a couple of years later and had no problems out of Sprint or anyone. Perhaps today's routers have so much memory, the BGP views fit with no problem. I remember back when 64M would do the job. Then 256M, etc. But its news to be if a /22 is fully accepted in all router tables. Wow only here for a couple of days and learning stuff already. :) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
No need to get into complicated legal territory. If you can prove to a jury that a company is not complying with FCC rules in a way that is interfering with your business then you can certainly win a tortuous interference suit against the company in question regardless of whether the FCC will commence enforcement. Additionally, you should immediately send the company a cease and desist letter with a deadline. After the deadline you file a compliant with state court and ask for an injunction to have the court force the company to cease their interference. A couple hours of your attorney's time should be able to get both done. If you have to litigate the hours will go through the roof. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Your options for recourse are going to depend largely upon the state in which you operate. However, most states are now recognizing either in common law or via statute some of the following: Tortious Interference with Business Relations Tortious Interference with Contract Unfair Trade Practices Consumer Protection Rights Note that these are all CIVIL remedies. I doubt that you would have much luck getting CRIMINAL remedies since the D.A.'s offices rarely have the resources to chase down their current case load. The key to ANY of these remedies will be to establish the intentional and malicious nature of your competitor's actions. If you can show that the competitor has no clients in the area and is just blasting interference for the sake of taking out your system, you might have something to work with, but if your competitor can show that he has even one client in receiving service from the offending radio system, you would have a lot harder time getting a judge to believe that the actions are improper competition rather than natural competition. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant / Law Student / Ex-WISP [EMAIL PROTECTED] DISCLAIMER: The message is not to be construed as legal advise for actual legal advise you need to speak to a licensed attorney within your jurisdiction. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
There is some theoretical problems; I've not seen it, though, and have had to announce /24's on a different provider for remote pops in the past. On 9/12/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess that's a good point. I may be able to get it, but will it be routable? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments At 02:24 PM 9/12/2007, Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. Yeah but will everyone route a /22?? I am no routing guru but in the old days, you had to have a /19 for sprint to route it for instance. I bought a /20 a couple of years later and had no problems out of Sprint or anyone. Perhaps today's routers have so much memory, the BGP views fit with no problem. I remember back when 64M would do the job. Then 256M, etc. But its news to be if a /22 is fully accepted in all router tables. Wow only here for a couple of days and learning stuff already. :) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Jack: If you can reasonably allege that what's going on IS in fact malicious interference, that IS actionable by the FCC. Even if the spectrum in question is license-exempt spectrum, malicious interference is specifically prohibited. Thanks, Steve On 9/12/07, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com (Man I get tired of cleaning up all that automatic drivel that gets appended to every posting to this list). -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Issue is that if you are using legal 2.4 equipment and the new guy is using legal 2.4 equipment, the fcc is not going to get involved. or any unlicensed frequency Matt Liotta wrote: No need to get into complicated legal territory. If you can prove to a jury that a company is not complying with FCC rules in a way that is interfering with your business then you can certainly win a tortuous interference suit against the company in question regardless of whether the FCC will commence enforcement. Additionally, you should immediately send the company a cease and desist letter with a deadline. After the deadline you file a compliant with state court and ask for an injunction to have the court force the company to cease their interference. A couple hours of your attorney's time should be able to get both done. If you have to litigate the hours will go through the roof. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Isn't that only to licensed users? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack: If you can reasonably allege that what's going on IS in fact malicious interference, that IS actionable by the FCC. Even if the spectrum in question is license-exempt spectrum, malicious interference is specifically prohibited. Thanks, Steve On 9/12/07, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com (Man I get tired of cleaning up all that automatic drivel that gets appended to every posting to this list). -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
If you are a lawyer, or you can cite specific case law or examples. (URL is required) then continue this thread. If not.. Don't! :) ryan (usually a great producer of list noise, but not today!) ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
The relation to the McDonalds question would be if they built their store in front of your door, preventing you from getting customers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: David Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:32 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** **
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
I believe that if someone wilfully interferes with your business you would have a case. Perfect example would be if your competition operated on the same non overlapping channell when other clear channels are available and you notified them that they were interfering with your system. Your canopy example does not really relate to the issue. Motorola could make guns if they wanted to but that doesnt make them killers. As such, just because they make a spectrally inefficient radio does not make them an interferer. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: David Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:32:05 To:WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Hi Allen, From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best. Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke stuffed into a single box. I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep. Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds, cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc. It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt. Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio system. I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems. I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and advice. The concept goes something like this. The muni network model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it. Coming into an urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless models don't always work. I posted the following statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz network. In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back negative. Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of the country. This is the market that has few if any options as many keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around here. Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase the power to try and punch through the offending objects. Add to these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Using dif radios for wifi and backhaul isn't mesh any more? How so? I was under the impression that mesh was the ability of the equipment to form a interconnection between the nodes with alternative paths to the Internet feed Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks Hi Allen, From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best. Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke stuffed into a single box. I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep. Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds, cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc. It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/arch ives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-86 39-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10vi ew=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.all eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir eless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt. Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio system. I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems. I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and advice. The concept goes something like this. The muni network model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it. Coming into an urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless models don't always work. I posted the following statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz network. In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential service,
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
I disagree totally :) with all respect! I also think that Canopy ought to be illegal in the USA. They built something that is totally spectrally unfriendly - on purpose! The commercial that they use to air was the last man standing. I didn't say that Canopy didn't build some pretty good gear - I said I hate their guts and wouldn't hang it if it were given to me for free due to the noise they create. I would love to see their gear recalled and outlawed. I can produce that commercial/ad in court and if you think you would stand a chance in civil court against an ad like that - - you are in for a surprise - - -unlicensed spectrum or not! We (all the WISP's) have a pact in N. Louisiana - - no one buys Canopy! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Peterson Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made in state court and state laws do vary from state to state. Would anyone who has fought against this type of unethical behavior please share with me (offlist please) what State law(s) they used? Thanks in advance, jack
Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
Can-o-pee. (thanks Bill) I was given a Canopy 2.4 GHz starter kit... sold it. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I disagree totally :) with all respect! I also think that Canopy ought to be illegal in the USA. They built something that is totally spectrally unfriendly - on purpose! The commercial that they use to air was the last man standing. I didn't say that Canopy didn't build some pretty good gear - I said I hate their guts and wouldn't hang it if it were given to me for free due to the noise they create. I would love to see their gear recalled and outlawed. I can produce that commercial/ad in court and if you think you would stand a chance in civil court against an ad like that - - you are in for a surprise - - -unlicensed spectrum or not! We (all the WISP's) have a pact in N. Louisiana - - no one buys Canopy! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Peterson Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack Unger wrote: It's hard for me to accept that there are a few inconsiderate bullies out there who would intentionally and maliciously jam other WISPs in order to take over the customer base. I have recently seen probable evidence of just such behavior. Because the FCC has no law (that I know of) against this disgraceful behavior, legal recourse needs to be made
[WISPA] Intrameta / BOSS
Any here use the BOSS software from Intrameta to manage their customer / radio / other data? We are evaluating them and would appreciate experience from the field. Thank you, Zak Wolfinger IT Director CyberLink International Phone: 888-293-3693 Ext. 4357 Fax: 888-293-3995 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
Hello Allen, Good to see you back and doing well. Curious to hear your take on the MobilePro saga. On or off list is good with me. The Friends Quite a few people have asked me (A) what have I been doing lately? And (B) please tell me the MobilePro saga. It means a lot to me that some of you have asked about me. It has hit me that although only have a handful of friends here in town, I did have 100+ friends in this industry! Thank you all for your kind thoughts and I do apologize for dropping off the planet like I did. That was my loss more than anyone else's. You are some of the finest people I have ever met in my life, besides my old ShreveNet staff. You know how I felt about my crew. Heck, you all helped me train them! ;) The Saga I will start with the MobilePro Saga and get it out of the way and move on to more positive things like the goodthings I have been up to in the past year or two. I tell you The Saga not as an excuse for my hiatus from the wireless industry, and excuse for my strange behavior, but well .(get it? Well, thats a deep subject, LOL) well ..because some of you asked me too (cough cough Brad Belton cough cough). Here goes.. It is somewhat of an interesting story I guess, for inside industry people like us, or else this might be extremely Off Topic for this list. As a WISP, this is not as easy story for me to tell. Not a happy story for me. I would like to tell the story and forget as much as possible and move on. Perhaps there is something that you can learn from this (yeah like Allen is not so smart after all? (Maybe and maybe not, you decide) The Disclaimer It has been over 3 years since the sale of my (W)ISP to MobilePro. I am no longer under any agreement or obligation. I am now entitled to express my opinion right or wrong. This is my opinion and only my opinion. The Beginning Roll the clock back to 2004. Life is pretty good. Speaking at WISPCON. Drinking Romulan Ale with some of the finest people on the planet. (now argue that point) Why on earth would I want to sell my company? The WISP of my dreams? Whatsup wit dat? There were a whole host of reasons for selling out and many of which were personal some were reasonable, and some might have been downright psychotic. Here are some of the reasons I had for selling, just in case any of you ever consider selling yourself. That might be one of the most difficult decisions you ever make. Choose wisely! (A) I was not a pureplay. We offered wireless, DSL, dialup, T1, hosting, web design, hotspots, you name it, I tried it all. My problems began as I began to take a beating on dialup amid new competition with cablemodem and several DSL carriers. I was bleeding revenues about 1% of month despite growth in broadband areas (DSL, wireless and T1) But I was all over the Northern state. Not much DSL and T1 out there in the boonies. And wireless was relatively a new trick for everyone back in those days. I was debt free until 1999 when I acquired the second largest ISP in the area (I was the largest). With this new debt, I borrowed even more to host all these new customers. (The old ISP was using crap) I got a good interest rate with the bank and with my father, both who backed me. LOL, then we REALLY started growing fast! (mainly dialup) So much of this debt was the result of left over baggage from the dial days plus the acquisition days and subsequent growth days. I began looking into my crystal ball and began to worry seeing an ever changing future in broadband. (especially wireless) Would I ever get this debt paid off in time before I must prepare for the next round of change? Then bang, my father came down with melanoma cancer in his lungs. This was right after Matt Larsens Dad died. My Dad already had prostate cancer and basil cell carcinoma. (3 types total) at this time (04) My doctor told me he probably wouldnt see his next birthday. He was 84 at the time. I wanted to pay off my Dad before he passed away. That was a major factor. It was important to me that he be proud of his remaining only son. The First Lesson All Doctors arent always right. My father found some new doctors with new ideas and had 3 very targeted lung surgeries (1 per year) and is doing remarkably well now for an 87 year old man. I am very proud of him. He is one tough old bird and just like the energizer bunny, he keeps going and going and going. He still drives to his office every day for a few hours every day. Im on the 5th floor and he is on the 11th floor, still at 333 Texas all these many years. (He longer than I) Also a part of this lesson is to use various domain names for unique services. That way you can sell part and not all of a property. (as needed) More Reasons Around that time I suddenly had a bad back. I didnt know what was wrong with my back.
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 06:35 PM 9/12/2007, Gino Villarini wrote: Using dif radios for wifi and backhaul isn't mesh any more? How so? I was under the impression that mesh was the ability of the equipment to form a interconnection between the nodes with alternative paths to the Internet feed I hate to be a pain.Marlon got me started in this industry. He is a true wireless pioneer, not I. But we have our differences... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_network I'm sure our definitions and connotations of wireless mesh differ, and rightfully so. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
.I would love to see their gear recalled and outlawed... Mac, That will happen when the 'cow jumps the moon'. Don't know if you all know the story of how Moto Canopy was developed ? It was developed for the military to begin with ...you take it from thereevery thing that you all dislike about the Moto Canopy system were specifically designed as 'features' . -:) Faisal Imtiaz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:50 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I disagree totally :) with all respect! I also think that Canopy ought to be illegal in the USA. They built something that is totally spectrally unfriendly - on purpose! The commercial that they use to air was the last man standing. I didn't say that Canopy didn't build some pretty good gear - I said I hate their guts and wouldn't hang it if it were given to me for free due to the noise they create. I would love to see their gear recalled and outlawed. I can produce that commercial/ad in court and if you think you would stand a chance in civil court against an ad like that - - you are in for a surprise - - -unlicensed spectrum or not! We (all the WISP's) have a pact in N. Louisiana - - no one buys Canopy! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Peterson Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations I would have to disagree with most of this thread. You have two things going against you in this. 1. A free market economy. 2. License Free spectrum. You can no more sue for someone putting up wireless in your area than you can if you owned a restaurant and McDonalds moved in next door. This is a critical component of American society, so I doubt that any judge would even allow the suit to ever get in front of a jury. If you can prove they are doing something illegal, like shooting your antennas with a .22 you might have a chance. License free spectrum means that you are going to get interference. Period. If interference were actionable, then Canopy would be out of business. Let's face it guys, Canopy interferes with most of all other equipment in its spectrum. By now, someone would have sued Canopy both on their equipment and on their marketing. (Who has seen the Wireless Thug pic at the shows. I know I have.) Your best bet is to prove that they are using unauthorized gear such as amps, etc. and cajole the FCC into investigating. David Peterson WirelesGuys Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Jack, I don't think it would have to be anything illegal about the interference. If someone moves into an area established by you - where you have an ongoing business and (for instance) someone hangs some Canopy and creates the inability to recover from the noise - - that is a law suit in the making. I am sure you would have to do all you could do and present the evidence of such, but the one who knocked you oout of business would be responsible for your lost income. My partner (20% owner) is a Corporate attorney and we have had this discussion on several occasions. I will ask him what his take on this is and what grounds he bases this line of thought. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations Onlist for my reply. It's also a good onlist discusion. I have always believed that there is some way to combat someone who intentionally causes interference with an existing network to cause harm to the business or operation and or for financial gain. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't even give any advice that would be worthy of taking to court. But, to me, it's just unbelievable that criminal case can't be brought against the offending party. The same way the Ricco statutes were first used against the mob and in other racketeering cases. Statutory remedies for intentional acts. Many statutes provide remedies for intentional harms. Civil rights statutes provide remedies for intentional discrimination. Consumer fraud statutes provide remedies for unlawful trade practices. The federal RICCO statute provides remedies for victims of conspiratorial intentional conduct. http://www.rnoon.com/law_for_laymen/litigation/intent.html Jack
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 10:44 AM 9/12/2007, D. Ryan Spott wrote: and like a typical dot-com they spent and expanded far faster than they should have 'cause hey, there's a second round coming and when they went looking for that second round, the large investor played their strategy and said no second round for you! Ryan for some reason this post resonates within me like a church bell. like a typical dot-com Happy Customers don't mean much. Never have. It's Happy Shareholders (investors) is where the money is. Sorry if I'm a bit cynical or jaded Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best. But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts. Remember back in the 90's how the internet was designed to withstand a nuclear attack? (using lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy) My old friend, lets cut through the image of mesh. What mesh is in my opinion is the elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive) and the adoption of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles and rooftops. Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of shooting high for big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or picocells down low (cheap). Instead of dumping money into towers and tower climbers (sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a non-special environment. Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not so. maybe, maybe not. To me mesh means communication between multiple nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web (like the Internet) Strix is on th right track. But like so many manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro). But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Strix had something (before they laid off half their staff this month). They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather than you or me. I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh sub-muni networks. Am I wrong? Allen Allen Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke stuffed into a single box. I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep. Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds, cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc. It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt. Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio system.
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
At 08:49 PM 9/12/2007, Mac Dearman wrote: We (all the WISP's) have a pact in N. Louisiana - - no one buys Canopy! Wrong!! See www.bluebirdwireless.com... NW is now polluted thanks to motos sales team infecting our 911 center and recruiting their employees to quit and join the private sector. (blue bird wireless) Which BTW is the nations largest prepay: provider located a mile from me. And ironically is MobilePro's closest competition... Or was... LOL BTW, I owe you a steak Mac. If you ever make it to Shreveport, I will name the place. You won't be sorry. Mac you are one hellova guy and I will never forget camp sagnasty God Bless. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Hi, The biggest problem I see when looking at mesh is having access to all those locations... people's homes, light poles, telephone poles, whatever. You now have to install UPS systems, rebooters, have the equipment some-what secure, etc. Just the few repeaters we have at people's homes (with UPS, rebooter, etc.) are a real PITA compared to our tower locations. We don't have to wait for someone to be home and we don't have to worry about power issues. Just my thoughts. Travis Microserv Allen Marsalis wrote: At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best. But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts. Remember back in the 90's how the internet was designed to withstand a nuclear attack? (using lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy) My old friend, lets cut through the image of mesh. What mesh is in my opinion is the elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive) and the adoption of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles and rooftops. Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of shooting high for big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or picocells down low (cheap). Instead of dumping money into towers and tower climbers (sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a non-special environment. Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not so. maybe, maybe not. To me mesh means communication between multiple nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web (like the Internet) Strix is on th right track. But like so many manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro). But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Strix had something (before they laid off half their staff this month). They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather than you or me. I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh sub-muni networks. Am I wrong? Allen Allen Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke stuffed into a single box. I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep. Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds, cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc. It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 12:13 AM 9/13/2007, Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, The biggest problem I see when looking at mesh is having access to all those locations... people's homes, light poles, telephone poles, whatever. You now have to install UPS systems, rebooters, have the equipment some-what secure, etc. Bingo, I didn't say anything early on, but you hit the nail Travis. The biggest problem I see is the un-even-ness of property ownership in my plan (rural tier 4 areas). Fortunately as you move into a town, pieces of land keep getting smaller and smaller. My only solution is to deviate from the use of omni antennas towards directional antennas to increase the distance between nodes from 1 mile to maybe 2 to 4 miles between nodes. But here are some very loose number regarding muni wifi. By comparison to my plan, imagine 15 to 20 nodes per square mile at $2500 to $3500 per node. Usinging standards based (generic) hardware I think I can reduce that cost to under $900 per node. Now imagine if a 900MHz AP with omni works to 1 mile radius, or 2 miles circumference. This is nearly 4 square miles of coverage for under $1k. (less than $250 per square mile). This is almost like averaging between the economics of fixed wireless and muni wifi networks. But in my areas, that might lead to 4X success rates in site surveys..\ Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
