[WSG] directory structures
It's more to do with usability than accessibility, as it affects all users IMHO. But as a start, a logical directory structure is important, so long as it's logical to the user not the owner. Well, I agree and disagree. I think logical to the user not the owner is spot in for the website navigation. But the actual directory structure, where you put your content, you need to own that. And the #1 rule I aim for is that you don't want to change your directory structure (whereas you quite likely will want to adapt your website navigation). Because the directories will be reflected in the URL, you want it to be stable because you don't want the URLs to change. I'm not going to list all the reasons why here... this article by TBL on the topic is excellent. http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?
For myself, only rarely. I still think it's nice to have a URL that can sort of be read I suppose the place I am coming from on this is that... URL's change Many sites are updated regularly and things move around. There is no gaurantee that something you bookmark (or remember) today will be in the same place tomorrow. That's why I use a search engine before I rely on bookmarks. I maybe have about 4 bookmarks. For the rest I either user my browsers History list or the funky typeahead thing in the address bar. Even so, I usually go to the domain and not a specific page. I say. Bring on URN's (Uniform Resource Names) and a whole new industry to manage them and employ all the software engineers in the task !!! Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] directory structures
I think logical to the user not the owner is spot in for the website navigation. Definitely agree with that. But the actual directory structure, where you put your content, you need to own that. And the #1 rule I aim for is that you don't want to change your directory structure (whereas you quite likely will want to adapt your website navigation). Agree/Disagree. Agree that you need to own the directory structure. The directory structure for a site should make sense to the owner of the information. It may make no sense at all to a user of the information. Disagree that you dont want to change the directory structure. If you own it you should be able to change it. More importantly, you should be able to change it without it impacting on how the user of your information finds said information. IE. your directory structure is only a convenient mechanism to represent an information architecture because web servers work that way. Because the directories will be reflected in the URL Part of the problem with the way URL's worked in web servers initially (and in many cases still do) is that the web server was lazy and simply mapped everything after the domain to some point in the file system. This is an implementation thing that does not need to be so. That is becoming less and less the rule these days as organisations realise that what a user sees via a URL does not have to match up with where the resource is in their system. Even a URL that LOOKS as though it is a directory struct may not even map to the file system at all and may map to a database. That was another point I was trying to make earlier when I was talking about URN's. Just because a URL looks like it maps to directories doesn't mean it does. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?
URL's change With all due respect Gary... http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html (look for I didn't think URLs have to be persistent - that was URNs) Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Bookmark plugin: Was: do people still use bookmarks?
With all the OT posts lately - I don't feel as guilty posting this : ) I have always wanted to be able to make my bookmarks available. From anywhere. Everywhere. Home, work, cafe's, mate's houses - even the in-laws. Maybe even my dingy PDA. I always envisioned it being a plugin that worked in three modes: 1. Use the plugin as a sidebar/dropdown etc within the browser app to display my links (good for public spots) 2. Use the plugin to add a subfolder to the browsers bookmarks and import them (good for frequently visited friends houses) 3. Use the plugin to trump my local bookmarks and refresh/update them (for everything under my control [que evil laugh]) The plugin would have to have a spot on the net it could publish the bookmark file too and of course read it back to a local cache. The bookmark file would have META data (probably a badly mixed term) that could hold last visited details, my notes, etc. This file would be valid XML (of course), prime for add-on link-swapping_blog-publishing_P2P-bashing goodness. The remote file would only be updated when a bookmark was added, or an option to save the bookmarks was used so as to keep the 'net chater down. Its transactions would be regular HTTP methods (form posts/gets etc.), nothing that could be gazumped by your friendly Hitler Youth run IT Dept and 3rd reich filtering firewalls. I would like to see it for firebird, though it would be better if it ran cross browser - so I could use it on whomever's PC I'm at. It would also mean that you could update your bookmarks between browsers breeds easy as pie. Imagine your treasured favelets available at your beck and call - at your grandmothers house! Nothing worse for me knowing that I bookmarked an answer for a doosie problem in my browser at work, while I'm stuck at home with just that very doosie. With google changing it's spots - who's to say I'll ever google the answer back? One downer might be that the ctrl-d and equivilent bookmark shortcuts might not work, but only a small worry - right? Another would be the remote storage spot. It would have to be able to do the processing of the bookmark file. I see two options - a hosted space with a user name and login, and secondly - a page you throw on your own server that you configure the bookmark plugin to use. An add-on for MT and other blogging apps would propogate quickly too (I reckon). Point your bookmark plugin to your Blogging add-on and update your blog rolls and favourites while you keep your local browser up to date. A ubiquitous bookmark. Neat huh? Would you use it? What would you add? Brendan PS - If anyone has an inkling of how to start such a development project - I'd love to hear from you. PPS - If you think it's a good idea - then it's my copyright - ok? ; ) PPS - Yep - I run off at the mouth - but I luuurve this idea. From: Ben Boyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 12/12/03 5:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks? do people still use bookmarks? For myself, only rarely. I recently read a post on a search engine list (I-Search, very good if you're looking for something on the topic) where it was suggested that people do not bookmark/remember URLs as often these days because it's so straightforward to just go to google and type it in. I'd never thought about it really, but realise now I'm guilty of this behaviour... trying to track down places I remember through the search rather than bookmarking at the time I visit. Thought it was worth a mention. I still think it's nice to have a URL that can sort of be read ... nothing like session strings in the address bar to make you feel you really are dealing with the inhuman face of a company! :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] directory structures
This is quite an interesting off-topic thread! On 12 Dec 2003, at 07:17, Gary Menzel wrote: Agree that you need to own the directory structure. The directory structure for a site should make sense to the owner of the information. It may make no sense at all to a user of the information. Mmm... You see, I agree that in terms of ownership the site owner rules the coop. But I think, if we were to get into a situation where, as others were saying, users try to navigate a site by guessing the directory structure, but were thwarted by our esoteric organisation, then fundamental questions need to be asked. I can't see many cases where the two issues of ownership are in conflict, and if organising a site in a way that makes sense to users doesn't cause too many problems, then why not do it? But a well structured site, with good navigation, shouldn't matter. Remember when we all used frames (admit it - we did) so a user would only ever see the base URL in the browser bar? I think the point I was trying to answer was that a lot of users (and I would say they are a minority in fact) use URLs to navigate a site and, as such, a logical directory structure is essential. But also, if you have a lot of contributors (even if they only contribute by saying ok) it helps to be logical. I recently sat through a painful hour of getting a site map approved in which a key player had a fundamental problem understanding that a page on the second level of the site was actually visible at all times from the front page. I'm also currently tearing my hair out with a site manager who just doesn't get the blindingly obvious site structure I set up - he would if he'd come up with it himself and I wish I'd let him, or at least (ahem) guided him. I don't think we do ourselves any favours by making things needlessly obscure. Jonathan (just got back from Christmas lunch so apologies if this post makes no sense whatsover!) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site
Thanks for all those thoughts - I'd guessed it pretty much but it's nice to have confirmation. I'll let you know what the site owners say! (www.newstatesman.co.uk had a similar problem and were oblivious to the fact the site didn't work on anything other than their setup. I ended up emailing them the simple solution, though I'm not sure they've implemented it yet) JB On 11 Dec 2003, at 22:56, James Ellis wrote: Looks like they are using Javascript to launch links. Doesn't work in Firebird. Venkman gives it a big thumbs down. Error: document.newsnav has no properties Source File: http://www.gramophone.co.uk/inc/navnn.js.asp Line: 68 The JS file has an ASP extension. Gotta love those spacer gifs. Cheers James Jonathan Baldwin wrote: I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're all just # links. I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary eyes just aren't seeing it. I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point. http://www.gramophone.co.uk Jonathan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?
Not to miss the blessing of tabbed browsing where I can bookmark a group of tabs, then open the tabs all in one go. I think the browsers that do this are Mozilla and Safari - not sure about Opera 6/7. Cheers James Mark Stanton wrote: Yes my firebird links toolbar looks like: - AClientName - a few links to tools relating to a client's stuff - Surf - links to various surf weather reports - Boards - various discussion boards - To Read - when I see something I want to come back to it goes here - Favelets - all those validators things - Banking - various online banking apps - Intranet Apps - Our intranet app - Bugzilla - CVSMonitor - Webmin - Useful Tools - Google Sets - lipsum.com I use a heaps of these everyday. Don't know what I would do without folders in the links toolbar. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
