[WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility
Howdy People, I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to do searches on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility [ANSWER TO SENDER ONLY PLEASE]
Please answer this off list as it has nothing to do with Web Standards. P I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to do searches on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] re: using wildcard * in css
Hi
I was trying to think of a way to set the same margin for all elements
inside my content div at http://www.algae.info/ and decided to try
.content *
{
margin-left: 15px;
}
Just for the heck of it. To my surprise, this worked in Firefox 0.8,
IE6, and Opera 7.23
So have I accidentally stumbled on a perfectly valid use of css, or am I
exploiting some bug? Will the margin display properly
cross-browsers/platforms ?
While you're viewing http://www.algae.info/ Id appreciate any CSS/layout
tips or possible problems as once im happy with it, the formatting will
be repeated in 9 other related sites.
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 403 8000 27
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
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Re: [WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility
Perlfect - www.perlfect.com - does a good job and is free. Cheers Mark Dale On 14/6/04 4:31 PM, Amit Karmakar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy People, I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to do searches on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Minimizing Flickering CSS Background Images in IE6
Several possible solutions at http://www.fivesevensix.com/studies/ie6flicker/ -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] re: using wildcard * in css
Sorry to dash your hopes, but that's just the Universal Selector
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#universal-selector
Neerav wrote:
I was trying to think of a way to set the same margin for all elements
inside my content div at http://www.algae.info/ and decided to try
.content *
{
margin-left: 15px;
}
Just for the heck of it. To my surprise, this worked in Firefox 0.8,
IE6, and Opera 7.23
So have I accidentally stumbled on a perfectly valid use of css, or am
I exploiting some bug? Will the margin display properly
cross-browsers/platforms ?
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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[WSG] Interesting reading
A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] re: using wildcard * in css
As Andy said, it's the universal selector. I'd be careful with it, as the rule will most likely cascade down. Simple example: div class=content pstrongNote:/strong be careful with the universal selector!/p /div You may find that the strong note gets the margin applied twice. It gets worse as you nest deeper (try putting an unordered list with links into the container and see what happens) Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
On 6/14/04 3:00 AM Marc Greenstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Yeah but those sites are the biggest *ahem* sites on the internet! Wow. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
How cute. What good are standards when browsers change so fast by adding new features every month? Or, the needs and demands of the users change with the latest killer app? It appears that your friend has been living in a cave since the browser wars... The rest is the usual well, these big sites are not valid, so why bother drivel. Kept me entertained for all of 17 seconds. P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Marc Greenstock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 June 2004 11:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
The author's an idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Greenstock Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 8:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Ok let me expand on my earlier opinion and give a bit more detail He's a bloody idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Greenstock Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 8:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
On 6/14/04 3:34 AM Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: It appears that your friend has been living in a cave since the browser wars... The rest is the usual well, these big sites are not valid, so why bother drivel. Kept me entertained for all of 17 seconds. Yeah, but you should s'plain a bit, IMO. If the biggies ignore the standards scenario, what are *we* doing? Rick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:00:45 +1000, Marc Greenstock wrote: http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx Gentlemen, The article in question uses inflammatory language and fails to back up its claims. Might I suggest we retain our professional demeanour and not sink to the author's level? or Mind your language, please! Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine Optimisation Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Yeah, but you should s'plain a bit, IMO. If the biggies ignore the standards scenario, what are *we* doing? Ok, let's expand a bit. There are at least two reasons why the biggies are ignoring standards: the speed of change in large organisations (management can often move at the speed of glaciers) and the fact that a lot of the big sites rely on large CMS applications (bespoke or off-the-shelf) which do not output standards-compliant (x)html. Both these aspects take time and money to change. Examples of large companies and sites which HAVE adopted standards-compliant code abound...or are we going to start the game of yes, but this site is bigger than that site / my dad could beat up your dad? Also: some large sites are obviously striving for validating code, but fall short on some occasions (unescaped special characters, ampersands, etc). Do these count as well? Changing over to standards is a journey, a process... particularly when you're retrofitting content and trying to tame an antiquated CMS or similar system. P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
I'm attempting to find out what support browsers on mobile devices such as PDA's and phones have for the handheld media type. Has anyone got any of experience of this? I've supplied a bit of background info here: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php And if anyone with a web-ready PDA or phone could let me know what results they get with this test page... http://www.htmldog.com/test/handheld.html ...I would be eternally grateful. Patrick Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Hi Rick, If the biggies ignore the standards scenario, what are *we* doing? I suspect the problem with the biggies is normally that they have grown so big that making significant changes in the name of web standards isn't as big a priority as other business aims, such as increasing sales, etc. Oh, and hello. I just joined WSG. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Director, Chopstix Media Limited http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
There is a fair point in there. We need people to bend, stretch and break standards in order to push out the boundaries of the technologies we use. Who would be completely happy with the Standards set in 1992? Didn't the late nineties Browser wars come up with non-standard stuff that's now included in the standard. I'm not saying ignore standards, just that sometimes breaking them serves a purpose too. mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 June 2004 11:34 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Interesting reading How cute. What good are standards when browsers change so fast by adding new features every month? Or, the needs and demands of the users change with the latest killer app? It appears that your friend has been living in a cave since the browser wars... The rest is the usual well, these big sites are not valid, so why bother drivel. Kept me entertained for all of 17 seconds. P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Marc Greenstock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 June 2004 11:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
I think any of us that have worked in big companies know just how slowly things move in terms of technology. Im working on a redesign of a fairly high profile site now and, although the company Im working for and the client are both reasonably knowledgable about standards and realise there benefit, the planning for this redesign was done a good 6-12 months ago (when web standards weren't as widely adopted) and to introduce it even now would cos enormous amounts of extra cash (for a whole new load of HTML to be supplied by the design agency then for us to intergrate and test it with the back end). This situation does annoy me alot as it's terrible going to this huge effort of making a massive new site when I know full well that it's going to need to be rebuilt again in a year or two but that's the way it is with huge projects like this. I'm am starting to see a definate slant towards standards in a lot of the high profile companies in the UK (the ones I've worked with anyway) so we shouldn't be discouraged. I've be involved in a couple of pitches to very large ecommerce companies where the main focus of the pitch was the adoption of web standards and its benefits and the clients seem to be very responsive (although I interested to see if they put their money where their mouth is. Has anyone else seen any changes in larger organisations? Quoting Ian Fenn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Rick, If the biggies ignore the standards scenario, what are *we* doing? I suspect the problem with the biggies is normally that they have grown so big that making significant changes in the name of web standards isn't as big a priority as other business aims, such as increasing sales, etc. Oh, and hello. I just joined WSG. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Director, Chopstix Media Limited http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
Patrick, I have an interest in this too. I coded a site (valid XHTML v1.0 strict) at the weekend that works in IE from v3+ and Netscape from v2+. It should have been fine on a PDA but it crashed the browser (Internet Explorer). And that's before I add any J/S functionality. Today I've requisitioned a Compaq iPAQ with testing in mind. Any guidance would be appreciated. I shall be interested in the remarks made here. mike 2k:)2 ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Who would be completely happy with the Standards set in 1992? Didn't the late nineties Browser wars come up with non-standard stuff that's now included in the standard. Yes, but: before becoming part of the standard, most of these innovations were extended, expanded, generalised and made consistent with the way existing standards worked. Not every single proprietary extension made its way into the standard. Every extension was scrutinised by a larger group without - ideally - a vested interested in breaking any existing standard. Then again, according to the article (rant): changing standards = OXYMORON ;) P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] scrolling area
Hi all, I've got a client who wants a scrollable area of text within a web page layout. My instant reaction was to use overflow: auto; or an iframe to solve the problem, but he doesn't like the visual appearance of the GUI-native scroll bars, and I'm having a few problems with browser inconsistencies (mainly NN / Mozilla) showing the horizontal scroll bar when it isn't needed, etc. So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. I've got a few ideas on how it could be done (whilst remaining accessible to those without JS), but I'd love to see if there's something already out there. As a side-note, is there anyway to force NN/Mozilla to only show the vertical scroll bar on an overflow: auto; box (I'm thinking something like overflow-vertical: auto; overflow-horizontal: clip;)?? --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
I have a NEC e616 3Mobile.
I am in the process of loading that page for you...
But it seems that its not working at the moment... :)
hehehe
Ahhh actually its working
...
Waiting...
Damn thsi cruddy 3 reception...
...
...
ok reception lost again..
hold on a second...
moving the fone around and doing another refresh...
ahhh I got reception again...
the 3 page loaded...
ok entering the URL now :)
...
Waiting...
...
Ahhh wrong APN selected...
Changing that now...
Reset the fone again...
ok...
getting reception...
going to the 3 page again...
:)
...
sorry about this.
3 service for you!
OK THE PAGE LOADED!
DONE!
Ok
well it looks something like this:
handheld
media type test
screen
link media="screen"... not
applied.
style media="screen"... not
applied.
@import url("whatever.css") screen; not applied.
@media screen {... not
applied.
handheld
link media="screen"... not
applied.
style media="screen"... not
applied.
@import url("whatever.css") screen; not applied.
@media screen {... not
applied.
Although that might not come out ok, so here is what happened.
My NEC e616 implemented every style import...
EXCEPT the 3rd test...
For both media's...
So its incorrectly loading the media for SCREEN...
and wont load CSS from one method either...
the @import seems not to work...
ANYWAY!
hope that helped!
There goes $0.22 cents or something :P
LOL...
IF you want anything else - let me know!
Patrick Griffiths wrote:
I'm attempting to find out what support browsers on mobile devices such
as PDA's and phones have for the "handheld" media type.
Has anyone got any of experience of this?
I've supplied a bit of background info here:
http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php
And if anyone with a web-ready PDA or phone could let me know what
results they get with this test page...
http://www.htmldog.com/test/handheld.html
...I would be eternally grateful.
Patrick
Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
http://www.htmldog.com
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RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Then again, according to the article (rant): changing standards = OXYMORON That's why there are different versions and subversions. 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01 are all different beasts. They don't change. If you're an idiot that doesn't think a doctype is required because you don't understand it, then what do you expect? The author doesn't understand what a standard is. Putting features into a browser outside the standard doesn't make the browser non-compliant. It's when they don't implement something that is in the standard (or get the implementation wrong as in the box model) that the problem occurs. If IE7 puts in some support for new proprietary tags that are undefined in any standard, fine, as long as we don't use them and discourage anyone else from doing so. The same reason that client-side VBScript failed will prevail. Who is this person? http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_07.aspx makes it even worse. He hasn't a clue. Just because you store the content in a database doesn't mean that it needs to be output in a table. It's not worth the effort responding. It's like talking to a confirmed racist. They make up whatever excuses they can satisfy themselves with. He'll feel like a fool when he eventually gets it as it'll all be in the wayback machine for posterity. Obviously why his name isn't on it. I don't care if Yahoo! uses invalid code. A) I don't (and refuse to) use it and B) I don't have to maintain it. A perfectly named company describing the people that run it :) Let it go. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] scrolling area
On Monday, June 14, 2004, at 11:29 PM, Justin French wrote: So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. Justin, take a look at the solution I came up with for two sites last year - same request from client (who was the designer) to remove the system-based scrollbars on frames (Frames? Gasp!). http://www.foleys.com.au/ http://www.marinepark.com.au/facilities.htm (the end client has got hold of this since delivery and done some DIY additions - check out the Home page... eek!) ***Warning*** These are pre-Standards era sites for me... just don't give me a hard time, OK? Not sure about the accessibility issue, but the javascript works OK. I actually pointed out to the designer at the time that lack of javascript would mean that the site couldn't be navigated, but I got the 'That's OK, all our visitors have IE/Win' line... Huh. Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Request check - redesign to accessibility standards
Hi all, I'm in the process of rebuilding a site to comply with Australian legal requirements for accessibility. After much hard work, I've got a reconstructed Home Page working in Mozilla Firefox 0.8, IE 6 and Opera 7.23 on Win XP Pro - except that the unordered list in the main text area only displays its squares (list-style-type) in IE6. Any tips as to how I can get them to show in the others? The new page (CSS embedded) is at: http://www.weedsbluemountains.org.au/default-new.htm Also I've got a problem with showing labels in the search form. Not sure why I'm not complying there. This is my first attempt at a totally tableless layout. Any help or comments will be greatly appreciated. Does it pass for accessibility? John Penlington web developer * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
I guess my characterisation of this author didn't meet with universal approval. Fair enough Lea, but I don't take any of it back. Some thoughts about what he's written: IF Microsoft introduced the most fantastic, whiz-bang, easy-to-use new feature in the next version of IE, that wouldn't be enough to get a wise developer to use it. It's only when the majority of the site users can use it (and for most web developers that includes mozilla users, mac users, opera users et.al) that they'll actually build it into their sites. Unless I have a site where 95% or more are using this new browser I wouldn't use the new feature. So Microsoft and Netscape and the others can innovate all they want and I approve of that, but until there's a positive advantage for me as a site owner or developer, it's all academic. Oh, and what do we have when the other browsers all support this new feature?? A STANDARD!! He says that If they, Microsoft won't even make their very own webpages compliant, don't expect the next version of IE to be fully compatible with other browsers.But he ignores the point that it's in Microsoft's interests to have their pages break in other browsers. I had a MS techo tell me once when I tried to point out a broken page in Netscape, well you should be using a proper browser instead of Netscape. That's ok for Microsoft - its in their interests - but its not ok for the vast mass of us, who need every user we can get. I'm not here to plug Microsoft's products or Firefox or Opera - they'll have to do it without me. I'm here to develop my own business and those of my clients, and they need to have sites that are workable and practical for as many of their users as possible. I have yet to find a better way to achieve this than to omit all proprietary browser features and stick to valid, compliant code. Why do large organisations not switch to standards compliance? Well some do. A splendid case in point is the Sydney Morning Herald, which site we've heard about and witnessed the change right here on this list. Through that we know that it's not a trivial matter to change a large system to or from anything. At MXDU this year, Macromedia's site manager (was it Sean Cornfield?) talked about how Macromedia is moving towards compliance. He said they have 40,000 pages to convert, and they have to do it in stages as they get to review each part of the site. It's a massive job and they just don't have the money to dedicate to switching to standards compliance if there isn't any other reason to touch that part of the site. SO he said their site is moving towards compliance but will take time to get there. Sounds like a sensible view to me. The author of that site's an idiot. No he's not ... he's a expletive deleted idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 9:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Interesting reading On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:00:45 +1000, Marc Greenstock wrote: http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx Gentlemen, The article in question uses inflammatory language and fails to back up its claims. Might I suggest we retain our professional demeanour and not sink to the author's level? or Mind your language, please! Lea * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Has anyone else seen any changes in larger organisations? Yep, we do work for some medium-to-large companies and nonprofits in the US (Clairol, Marriott, Disney), and while individual client interest in standards varies (usually dependent on clients' general technical awareness, IMO), we do get some questions about it, and clients are always happy when we implement standards-based solutions. Nonprofits and government clients almost always focus on it as a requirement. Once deployed (especially for db-driven sites) cost of updates drops dramatically, which is a significant ROI. I suspect the problem with the biggies is normally that they have grown so big that making significant changes in the name of web standards isn't as big a priority as other business aims, such as increasing sales, etc. I agree that the big guys are going to be late adopters, due primarily to bureaucracy and the use of non-standard third party CMSs (and they focus more energy on ad sales than standards compliance). Some ad services simply send a code snippet that must be included to display ads - site owners cannot control standards compliance within this snippet either. I'd be interested in seeing a study that links standards to CMSs, ad services, etc., rather than just URLs - it would get more to the heart of the issue. I would also be interested in hearing how many of those site owners are *happy* with their sites' status quo. Referencing all of those sites is merely an effective illustration of a common situation - it is illogical to conclude that these site owners prefer nonstandard deployments. Chris * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] scrolling area
Justin French spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 11:29 PM EST: So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. Travis Beckham's divscroller works a treat: http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller2 http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Has anyone else seen any changes in larger organisations? I was hired by Ingles Markets (15,000 employee grocer chain) back in Fenruary, and was lucky enough to have free range over how to best upgrade our web site. Naturally, I went with a standards-based solution. No one here would know the difference between a valid or invalid site, but I have had numerous comments on the faster load times and ease of use among various platforms. My bosses were amazed that after I redesigned the site and moved it to an in-house server, the footprint on our bandwidth was very small. It's funny that the Decloak guy mentions ESPN's site, which is by-and-large a standards-based site save for some third party ads that keep it from validating. (More info here: http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/ ) Also, the IBM site he mentions is one trailing slash away from validating. I took a peek at Macromedia's code, and while they have an XHTML Transitional Doctype, it does not validate (yet). They do, however, use CSS for layout. Will Chatham Webmaster Ingles Markets ooOo-o 828.669.2941 - ext.534 www.ingles-markets.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
El lun, 14-06-2004 a las 12:00, Marc Greenstock escribió: A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) cite # Another thing with the IMAGE tag. Do we really need LONGDESC tag, i.e.LONG DESCRIPTION? Can't the screen reader already know the length of the description in the first place before reading it? Just have the screen reader have a default number of words to read in the first place and ask the user if they want to continue reading or tell them that it's so many words long and then ask them a question whether to read through it. /cite cite Screen readers think they are SMART by just reading the Heading tags first e.g. H1. However, web designers and developers rarely use H1 or header tags anyway. What screen readers should do is automatically read text that is BIGGER than the text below it or around it. How hard could that be to program? Not hard at all. Just have have the screen reader do a text size comparison just like the browser does. If this text is much bigger than the surrounding text, then that's what the screen reader should be reading first as the header /cite This guy is either joking or very close to insanity :) I mean one thing is as reasoned argument pro layout tables and other is a nonsensical rant full of non-sequiturs. -- Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web (+34) 985 22 12 65http://simplelogica.net escribe en Logicola http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] scrolling area
Erm, Not very accessible. No keyboard access I could figure out. Would it not be better to use inline frames and apply IE only CSS to the scrollbars? mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: Tim Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 June 2004 16:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] scrolling area Justin French spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 11:29 PM EST: So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. Travis Beckham's divscroller works a treat: http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller2 http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
I can't believe y'all are taking this guy seriously enough to even comment - it's pretty obvious to this newbie to css standards, he's trolling - he got you ~ I think enough has been said about his dubious commentaries ~ let it go - please Marie About Certified XHTML Developer - Level 1 Vanille's Place - http://marie-str.com Technicolour Rainbow - http://techrain.ca the FlipSide - http://the-flipside.com El lun, 14-06-2004 a las 12:00, Marc Greenstock escribió: A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
I can't believe y'all are taking this guy seriously enough to even comment - it's pretty obvious to this newbie to css standards, he's trolling - he got you ~ I think enough has been said about his dubious commentaries ~ let it go - please Marie About Certified XHTML Developer - Level 1 I agree, where all equals, but within ourselves - we'll never argue if Eric Meyer happened to look in and have his comment first. Theres a point where you become somewhat superior petty things like that. Camz www.t94xr.net.nz http://freelance.t94xr.net.nz/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
Marie wrote: I can't believe y'all are taking this guy seriously enough to even comment I can. I'm guessing that the reason so many have commented is that they are so blown away by the nonsensical idiocy put to HTML. Often in situations, such as this one, where one is overwhelmed by the conflict between what their senses tell them (in this case through reading) and what they know to be true, almost as a reflex they are compelled to comment. I myself would probably have commented too, were it not that by reading what others had to say my own need to shout THIS ISN'T TRUE! was largely satisfied. (That, and sneaking a few comments into my meta-comment.) he's trolling I'm not so sure; I get the feeling that he actually believes his own drivel--sad as that may be. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Interesting reading
Hahaha, I knew this would ruffle a few feathers. Marc. - Original Message - From: Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Interesting reading Marie wrote: I can't believe y'all are taking this guy seriously enough to even comment I can. I'm guessing that the reason so many have commented is that they are so blown away by the nonsensical idiocy put to HTML. Often in situations, such as this one, where one is overwhelmed by the conflict between what their senses tell them (in this case through reading) and what they know to be true, almost as a reflex they are compelled to comment. I myself would probably have commented too, were it not that by reading what others had to say my own need to shout THIS ISN'T TRUE! was largely satisfied. (That, and sneaking a few comments into my meta-comment.) he's trolling I'm not so sure; I get the feeling that he actually believes his own drivel--sad as that may be. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Request check - redesign to accessibility standards
John, You're going well. I'm in the Blue Mountains and belong to a bushcare group, so it's great to see you doing this. Combines two of my passions! I've posted your page (minus pictures) in which I've made quite a number of changes to your code (on the way to finding out what was going on with your list). But I haven't fixed everything. http://www.fortyfivedegrees.com/bmbushcare It's worth bearing in mind that with a little bit of thought you can often get rid of your classes for specific items. For example, I noticed that you had a class called a.normal. You don't need this if you use cascading properties. (You'll notice that it's gone from the css. The reason is that I have made the uls in the topnav and bottomnav specific to those boxes. You do this by naming them #topnav ul, for example, so they will apply only to uls inside the topnav.) Following from this I've set the #mainarea a to what you had set to normal. The image and caption you floated to the right I have renamed callout, because in future you may not want to float it right as you have... so it's more of a functional than a layout meaning. You'll see that I've stripped the p of its class='small' tag, because the #callout p now has a size applied to it. You'll notice I've also got rid of the borderless img class. Instead I've created an img rule at the top of the CSS that will apply to all imgs, with a border set to 0. I've conflated a few of the rules, too. You'll see things like #navtop ul, #navbottom ul. This is an easy way to apply the same rules to different elements. You should continue to work through your code with these principles in mind. Get rid of those in-line styles around the weed of the month, for example. Get rid of the vspace on your Wentworth Falls picture. Tidy up your footer html and css to get rid of extra classes and nbsps, and remove your border=0 stuff. (Why not set one font size for all of your footer info?) But as I say, you're going well! And as time goes on you'll refine your skills. All the best -Hugh Todd PS The form may need to be enclosed in p tags to validate. After much hard work, I've got a reconstructed Home Page working in Mozilla Firefox 0.8, IE 6 and Opera 7.23 on Win XP Pro - except that the unordered list in the main text area only displays its squares (list-style-type) in IE6. Any tips as to how I can get them to show in the others? The new page (CSS embedded) is at: http://www.weedsbluemountains.org.au/default-new.htm Also I've got a problem with showing labels in the search form. Not sure why I'm not complying there. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
Chris Stratford wrote: So its incorrectly loading the media for SCREEN... and wont load CSS from one method either... the @import seems not to work... This is fairly typical of small-screen devices. Since most web developers don't use CSS properly yet, and many of those who do don't create handheld CSS, browser developers for small-screen devices have had to work out hacks to attempt to make the site conform to their requirements That's probably not clarifying matters, but I've only had one coffee today so I won't be firing on all cylinders yet... Anyway, read this : http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/04/12/index4a.html It taught me everything I ever needed to know about small-screen dev Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] OT: Strict Doctype New Window Links Javascript With Multiple REL Values
To anyone interested: I have written a tutorial that expands on Kevin Yank's (http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1041) javascript from his article. It allows for the use of the rel= attribute of the anchor tag to have the value external to open links in new windows or internal to open links in the same window. It also allows XFN members to keep their XFN relationships within the rel= tag as well. If you feel this is something that you would like to take a look at, the URL is http://raineym.dyndns.org/archives/entries/?entry=061404_2141. -- *Michael Rainey* Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/ Résumé: http://mrainey.dyndns.org/ begin:vcard fn:Michael Rainey n:Rainey;Michael org:Halifax Regional Medical Center;Information Systems adr:;;250 Smith Church Road;Roanoke Rapids;NC;27870;United States email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Computer Operator tel;work:(252) 535-8142 tel;home:(252) 537-8636 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.halifaxmedicalcenter.org/ version:2.1 end:vcard
[WSG] re: using wildcard * in css (now IE vertical spacing between li's)
Tim You're right, the different colouring was there just for separation. I like your idea of using spacing to differentiate groups of links and have applied it at http://www.algae.info/ Works fine in Firefox 0.8/Mozilla , Opera 7.23, and Safari 1.2 Unfortunately IE wont come to the party, it puts in vertical spacing between each li in the ul when all the other browsers play nice and display them vertically flush. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Tim Lucas wrote: Well assuming the different colouring is there just for separation then it is much harder for the brain to deduce groupings from colours than it is for proximity. Its just a graphic design principle that I think might be worth trying. To fix your prob set the width to be 100% on the a's. Try these style changes (just add to page or bottom of style sheet): snipped -- tim Neerav spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 6:36 PM EST: Any specific reason Tim ? The clients for that site want a solid colour background for the nav column * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] OT: Strict Doctype New Window Links Javascript With Multiple REL Values
To anyone interested: I have written a tutorial that expands on Kevin Yank's (http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1041) javascript from his article. It allows for the use of the rel= attribute of the anchor tag to have the value external to open links in new windows or internal to open links in the same window. It also allows XFN members to keep their XFN relationships within the rel= tag as well. If you feel this is something that you would like to take a look at, the URL is http://raineym.dyndns.org/archives/entries/?entry=061404_2141. -- *Michael Rainey* Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/ Résumé: http://mrainey.dyndns.org/ begin:vcard fn:Michael Rainey n:Rainey;Michael org:Halifax Regional Medical Center;Information Systems adr:;;250 Smith Church Road;Roanoke Rapids;NC;27870;United States email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Computer Operator tel;work:(252) 535-8142 tel;home:(252) 537-8636 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.halifaxmedicalcenter.org/ version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] OT: Strict Doctype New Window Links Javascript With Multiple REL Values
If you like, you can use the DTD I have modified to allow XHTML 1.0 to utilise the TARGET attribute. !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC XHTML 1.01 Strict http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd; I named it XHTML 1.01 Strict... the .01 is just for the tartget attribute. :) If you are interested that is. then there is no need for Javascript. Mike Rainey wrote: To anyone interested: I have written a tutorial that expands on Kevin Yank's (http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1041) javascript from his article. It allows for the use of the rel= attribute of the anchor tag to have the value external to open links in new windows or internal to open links in the same window. It also allows XFN members to keep their XFN relationships within the rel= tag as well. If you feel this is something that you would like to take a look at, the URL is http://raineym.dyndns.org/archives/entries/?entry=061404_2141. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] re: using wildcard * in css (now IE vertical spacing between li's)
I'll check it out for you when I get home later this evening. -- tim Quoting Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tim You're right, the different colouring was there just for separation. I like your idea of using spacing to differentiate groups of links and have applied it at http://www.algae.info/ Works fine in Firefox 0.8/Mozilla , Opera 7.23, and Safari 1.2 Unfortunately IE wont come to the party, it puts in vertical spacing between each li in the ul when all the other browsers play nice and display them vertically flush. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Tim Lucas wrote: Well assuming the different colouring is there just for separation then it is much harder for the brain to deduce groupings from colours than it is for proximity. Its just a graphic design principle that I think might be worth trying. To fix your prob set the width to be 100% on the a's. Try these style changes (just add to page or bottom of style sheet): snipped -- tim Neerav spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 6:36 PM EST: Any specific reason Tim ? The clients for that site want a solid colour background for the nav column * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * www.toolmantim.com - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] overflow: auto;
Hi, I the process of a design that begs overflow: auto; what is the opinion on this wonderful alternative to frames? Computers need more Africa in them. -Brian Eno Chris
Re: [WSG] scrolling area
On 15/06/2004, at 1:23 AM, Tim Lucas wrote: Justin French spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 11:29 PM EST: So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. Travis Beckham's divscroller works a treat: http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller2 http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller Thanks, but they're not very accessible at all. At the very least I would hope that (when JS isn't available) the text would still be readable (eg: break the layout to ensure accessibility). I think what needs to be done is start with an accessible layout, then have javascript come in over the top and add any new mark-up and styles that are needed, but I'm a little over my head there. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
