[WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
Is there a way to accurately and seamlessly position this image over the background? At the moment, a percentage left position doesn't quite do the job. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/uwish/girls.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning
Hi guys Sorry this is a WE05 specific question... In Eric Meyer's presentation at WE05, he talked through the decision-making process of constructing AListApart. It was a good presentation, but lost me at one point. The challenge was: * three columns of content * no guarantee which would be longer * vertical lines between them * a footer that spanned the full width of the screen As part of the decision, he was discussing whether he would use absolute positioning or floats for the columns. I remember him saying that he couldn't use absolute positioning because he wouldn't know which column was longest. This is where I lost the point... I understand this is hard because you don't know which column to use as a reference for the footer positioning. But couldn't you wrap the three columns in an relatively positioned div and position the footer relative the the whole thing? Is the problem just that he didn't want to mess the markup with an irrelevant div? I didn't want to ask him about something so trivial when I met him later, so talked about children instead... Thanks Donna -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning
Donna Maurer wrote: This is where I lost the point... I understand this is hard because you don't know which column to use as a reference for the footer positioning. But couldn't you wrap the three columns in an relatively positioned div and position the footer relative the the whole thing? When you position something absolutely, you remove it from the normal document flow. This means that no matter how long the individual columns are, they will not push the height of the container at all. In the worst case, if all you'd have in that container is absolutely positioned columns, the container will collapse to a height of zero. The same happens when you use floats inside a container: if you don't have something as the last item of the container to clear them, the container will collapse. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
Sorry to seemingly use this group to have a conversation with myself but I have been working on my problem and floated the image within the wrapper and then used relative positioning! Is this a valid method? The site works in IE for PC and Safari and Firefox for Mac. In Mac IE, though, the relative positioning is completely ignored. Why is that? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] XOXO What Fo'?
Looking at this. http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/XOXO The examples are puzzling. ol class='xoxo' liSubject 1 ol lisubpoint a/li lisubpoint b/li /ol /li liSubject 2 ol compact=compact lisubpoint c/li lisubpoint d/li /ol /li liSubject 3 ol lisubpoint e/li /ol /li /ol As an example of XOXO. Don't we have something like this already? Serously, what is it? Outline markup? -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning
Thanks, now I remember how it works! I have used positioning before (it is on my current site), but do find it a bit tricky to think around! Feeling silly... Donna On 5 Oct 2005 at 11:23, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Donna Maurer wrote: When you position something absolutely, you remove it from the normal document flow. This means that no matter how long the individual columns are, they will not push the height of the container at all. In the worst case, if all you'd have in that container is absolutely positioned columns, the container will collapse to a height of zero. The same happens when you use floats inside a container: if you don't have something as the last item of the container to clear them, the container will collapse. -- Patrick H. Lauke -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Absolute positioning objects and centering content.
Hi all,
I've just used a little absolute positioning inside an div for the first time
in years.
Is it common practice to add position:relative to the body element to get
relative objects to behave when resizing the browser?
During this project I also found a solution to centre content that appeared to
work in all the browsers (Mac and PC) I tried.
/* global reset */
* {margin:0; padding:0}
body{
position:relative;
text-align:center;
font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif;
color:#000; background:#fff;
width:768px;
margin:0 auto;
overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical
}
body * {text-align:left}
Are there going to be surprises appearing due to this technique?
Regards
mike 2k:)2
marqueeblink http://www.webSemantics.co.uk /marquee/blink
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Re: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
BTW the floated page is here: http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/uwish1/girls.html On 05/10/05, Adam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to seemingly use this group to have a conversation with myself but I have been working on my problem and floated the image within the wrapper and then used relative positioning! Is this a valid method? The site works in IE for PC and Safari and Firefox for Mac. In Mac IE, though, the relative positioning is completely ignored. Why is that? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
Adam Morris wrote:
Is there a way to accurately and seamlessly position this image over
the background?
http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/uwish/girls.html
.tornpic {
width:350px;
height:316px;
float: right;
margin: -113px -24px 0 0;
background: url(tornpic0.jpg) no-repeat;
position: relative;
}
That's pulling the float into position by its margins. More robust and
cross-browser stable than 'rel-pos' and achieving the same. Note that
I've added 'position: relative;' anyway, in order to fix a bug in IE/win.
IE/Mac will position the image correctly (like the other browsers).
However, there's a lot going on on the elements below, so neither IE/win
nor IE/Mac are lining up the text all that well.
Delete 'width: xxx;' on #content and .contenttext p, and add 'padding: 0
30px 0 0;' on #content. That'll fix text line-up in IE/win, and partly
also in IE/Mac.
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Jello flexible layout
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 18:18:15 -0400, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, is this related to Jello exclusively? Yes. However, I managed to get the designer to go another direction with reguards to full height. But full height using Jello Mold is tricky because one of the key structural elements must have a height of 0 within a Holly Hack for IEWin. Traditionally, the hack is used with height:1% (for hasLayout I believe) but anything other than 0 breaks this layout in IEWIN. I emailed Mike Purvis, author of Jello Mold. He got full height working in most browsers, but the test he sent me breaks in IEWin, probably because of the above. If I catch wind of it working cross-browser, I'll repost. Thanks everyone. -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
That's great! Using margins instead of relative positioning has placed
the image in IE Mac too!
What is this bug in IE/Win that you need position: relative; for?
On 05/10/05, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Adam Morris wrote:
Is there a way to accurately and seamlessly position this image over
the background?
http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/uwish/girls.html
.tornpic {
width:350px;
height:316px;
float: right;
margin: -113px -24px 0 0;
background: url(tornpic0.jpg) no-repeat;
position: relative;
}
That's pulling the float into position by its margins. More robust and
cross-browser stable than 'rel-pos' and achieving the same. Note that
I've added 'position: relative;' anyway, in order to fix a bug in IE/win.
IE/Mac will position the image correctly (like the other browsers).
However, there's a lot going on on the elements below, so neither IE/win
nor IE/Mac are lining up the text all that well.
Delete 'width: xxx;' on #content and .contenttext p, and add 'padding: 0
30px 0 0;' on #content. That'll fix text line-up in IE/win, and partly
also in IE/Mac.
Georg
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
Hi This is a bit late, the internet broke for me for the last few days...On 9/30/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:James Ellis wrote: Conditional statements in HTML such as those used by IE/Windows are a slippery slope and they seriously break a central tenet of programming. They are contained with !-- HTML comments -- and comments in code are not meant to be parsed as code. It's just plain badness.I don't follow you here. These comments *are meant to be* parsed by IE/Win. Wrong.. comments are not meant to be parsed by an interpreter. Comments are descriptive rather than interpretive. Taking one step back here from the browser level here to get closer to the programming layer would be good. The result of the use of code in comments is being focused on here rather than how the result was made. In programming, if we reach a result that appears to work based on poor coding, we don't have a solution to the problem - we have a workaround based on exploitable hacks. Mistakes building on mistakes. Forget that it's IE for a second and look at what is happening in the programming layer. There is an interpreter that is parsing the code, when it comes upon a comment section it blithely ignores the fact the programmer has escaped out of the interpreted part of the script and into the descriptive part of the script. Oh, you didn't want me to parse that but I'll do it anyway -- just to be sure... where could this end up? I don't know but I sure don't like the idea of any interpreter parsing comments, with unexpected results. I agree with you both that it works in this situation, but it's based on flawed programming principles and in doing this we've exposed the fact that the IE interpreter parses what's in the comment, something that's not for the interpreter to consume. Place something benign in the comment that is then interpreted as an action to be carried out - bang! the interpreter falls over or worse. It's a seriously flawed method of developing applications. Link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comments Link : http://webdesign.about.com/od/beginningtutorials/a/aa050503a.htm What happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some piece of software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected things.Anything inside coments is supposed to be ignored by UAs so if somethinggoes wrong it would be because of the browser and not because of what'sinside these comments. Haven't you just said above that the special conditional comments are meant to be parsed by IE/Win? I don't follow. Comments, of course, can be machine readable such as those used to provide code documentation or CVS/SVN keywords, but these don't actually run anything or fork the code base. This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing - forking the codebase to provide slighlty different content based on the client in use. Better to get the browsers actually rendering things to the published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome).IMHO, this is a nice idea, but not very realistic. Well, if we decide not to push the doors won't open. James
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Hey The MS true type fonts core fonts are available for any system (that supports TTF) to download via http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=19259 I'm sure they are available elsewhere but I pick most of my eyecandy stuff for KDE from here. If you specify sans-serif as the fallback font, the users' sans-serif setting will take hold.If it's not the font you expect - well don't worry about it because that's what the user or their admin chose and you have no control over it. How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Relinquish Control http://adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000501.php ;) Cheers James
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Mugur Padurean wrote: As an added note to Linux fonts: It may be useful for some of you guys to know that on some major Linux distros ( Fedora, Debian, Slackware) in all browsers available through the KDE or Gnome fonts appear to be rendered slightly bigger than on WIN. Up to 5 % bigger. Even if you import fonts from Windows ( Arial for example ) they will appear bigger. I haven't tested for the exact percentages but still ... I've checked this with two identical PC side by side and it's there. Anyone else seen this ? I'm really curious if any of you have more info on this. I think if you digest http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5869 and http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6153 you'll find represented the behavior you've described. Linux simply does not have the same fonts as doze, unless you've imported doze fonts, or installed the mswbfnts package. Until and unless you do, you cannot expect the same fonts to render the same, since they aren't really the same. In the many tests I have done comparing doze to Linux, the exact same ttf fonts when not anti-aliased do produce the same letterforms at the same size on both platforms. What I do notice though is the leading usually is ever so slightly different. One other possibility is you're comparing fonts sized in pt. This is invalid unless you're using the exact same DPI on all systems compared. Matching DPI with doze is not something you get by accident. Doze defaults to 96 DPI, and often is 120 on laptops. Linux is almost never either 96 or 120 unless explicitly set to be that way. More commonly it is 75, 90, or 100 DPI. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/PointsDemo.html can be used for pt size comparisons if you have matched DPI. If you are trying to run xft/gtk2 Gecko builds on a system lacking xft/gtk2 support you also can expect bad behavior. -- Be quick to listen, slow to speak.James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
I've found I can't take advantage of conditional comments as the stand alone versions of old ie browsers i have don't support them, they all think they are ie6! Doing some research into this to, mostly because I wanted to avoid the * html selector, I came across this fantastic article: http://www.informit.com/articles/printerfriendly.asp?p=170511rl=1 It discusses many of the methods for hacks, however, what really caught my eye was the subject of css filtration systems. I have to say since discovering them i've never looked back. I think it's definitely worth a read, Paul. _ http://www.paulsturgess.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
I am also a bit late in the process of giving my humble advice on this thread. Being a C programmer for almost 20 years, I would like to cover my developer's hat for a few minutes. I strongly discourage using comments to obtain ... conditional compilation/interpretation. In many languages, such as C, conditional compilation is achieved via the C pre-processor, a sort of pre-compilation step. In interpreted languages, the statements are conditionally interpreted via specific directives. Pre-processing directives, or any derivative, is the proper way to achieve conditional interpretation. I have taken the decision to step away from this weird possibility of IE ... simply because I do not want to be obliged, in a year or two, to change a bulk of web sites built on that feature. ... voilà ... this is my humble contribution. Pat -Original Message- Hi This is a bit late, the internet broke for me for the last few days... On 9/30/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Ellis wrote: Conditional statements in HTML such as those used by IE/Windows are a slippery slope and they seriously break a central tenet of programming. They are contained with !-- HTML comments -- and comments in code are not meant to be parsed as code. It's just plain badness. I don't follow you here. These comments *are meant to be* parsed by IE/Win. Wrong.. comments are not meant to be parsed by an interpreter. Comments are descriptive rather than interpretive. Taking one step back here from the browser level here to get closer to the programming layer would be good. The result of the use of code in comments is being focused on here rather than how the result was made. In programming, if we reach a result that appears to work based on poor coding, we don't have a solution to the problem - we have a workaround based on exploitable hacks. Mistakes building on mistakes. Forget that it's IE for a second and look at what is happening in the programming layer. There is an interpreter that is parsing the code, when it comes upon a comment section it blithely ignores the fact the programmer has escaped out of the interpreted part of the script and into the descriptive part of the script. Oh, you didn't want me to parse that but I'll do it anyway -- just to be sure... where could this end up? I don't know but I sure don't like the idea of any interpreter parsing comments, with unexpected results. I agree with you both that it works in this situation, but it's based on flawed programming principles and in doing this we've exposed the fact that the IE interpreter parses what's in the comment, something that's not for the interpreter to consume. Place something benign in the comment that is then interpreted as an action to be carried out - bang! the interpreter falls over or worse. It's a seriously flawed method of developing applications. Link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comments Link : http://webdesign.about.com/od/beginningtutorials/a/aa050503a.htm What happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some piece of software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected things. Anything inside coments is supposed to be ignored by UAs so if something goes wrong it would be because of the browser and not because of what's inside these comments. Haven't you just said above that the special conditional comments are meant to be parsed by IE/Win? I don't follow. Comments, of course, can be machine readable such as those used to provide code documentation or CVS/SVN keywords, but these don't actually run anything or fork the code base. This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing - forking the codebase to provide slighlty different content based on the client in use. Better to get the browsers actually rendering things to the published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome). IMHO, this is a nice idea, but not very realistic. Well, if we decide not to push the doors won't open. James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Jello flexible layout
On 5 Oct 2005, at 10:19 pm, Tom Livingston wrote: However, I managed to get the designer to go another direction with reguards to full height. But full height using Jello Mold is tricky because one of the key structural elements must have a height of 0 within a Holly Hack for IEWin. Traditionally, the hack is used with height:1% (for hasLayout I believe) but anything other than 0 breaks this layout in IEWIN. What Jello Mold need is 'hasLayout' [1] in order to paint those containers correctly in IE. Hence the use of the 'holly hack', which is one the methods to trigger hasLayout. There are other methods though: you could try 'zoom:1', or 'display:inline-block'. Then use and additional container/wrapper to force the height. [1] http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
Adam Morris wrote: What is this bug in IE/Win that you need position: relative; for? Parts of the float that's overflowing the outer container when pulled like this, will become invisible. -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Jello flexible layout
I did an experiment with the full height thing about a year ago. I was absolutely baffled but what I found out, is if you leave out the doctype, full height will work in IE. But does not work with a doctype. Obviously because the browser has kicked into the dtd's mode. You can see the final product of the site I built for a few banks. Here's one: http://www.firstgaston.com Take a look at the code and steal whatever you think you can use. I ended up using a table to get things done correctly. Buddy Tom Livingston wrote: On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 18:18:15 -0400, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, is this related to Jello exclusively? Yes. However, I managed to get the designer to go another direction with reguards to full height. But full height using Jello Mold is tricky because one of the key structural elements must have a height of 0 within a Holly Hack for IEWin. Traditionally, the hack is used with height:1% (for hasLayout I believe) but anything other than 0 breaks this layout in IEWIN. I emailed Mike Purvis, author of Jello Mold. He got full height working in most browsers, but the test he sent me breaks in IEWin, probably because of the above. If I catch wind of it working cross-browser, I'll repost. Thanks everyone. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Header text problem
http://www.zachinglis.com/ZachInglis.html The h3's I've tried it with them OUTSIDE the h3/h3 tags but that doesn't work either. At the moment i'm only modding the top post before you ask. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Header text problem
Not sure what exactly you're asking, but: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//www.zachinglis.com/ZachInglis.html It's broken code, which may explain why you are having problems. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Css fluid but accurate positioning
If all heck is breaking loose on your floated objects in IE. Add position:relative and it may cure the problem. Sure, it is better to break it all down and try a more bullet-proof design. But sometimes its better to just go with the quick fix. Ted -Original Message- Adam Morris wrote: What is this bug in IE/Win that you need position: relative; for? Parts of the float that's overflowing the outer container when pulled like this, will become invisible. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
Paul Sturgess wrote: I've found I can't take advantage of conditional comments as the stand alone versions of old ie browsers i have don't support them, they all think they are ie6! You can tweak the registry to fix that: http://labs.insert-title.com/labs/article809.aspx If you don't want to edit your registry settings, you can toggle the version vector while testing with IE5 http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/cc.asp Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have taken the decision to step away from this weird possibility of IE ... simply because I do not want to be obliged, in a year or two, to change a bulk of web sites built on that feature. Pat, As long as the vector version in the conditional expression does not target IE 7+ I don't see what make you think that would be needed Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
James Ellis wrote: Conditional statements in HTML such as those used by IE/Windows are a slippery slope and they seriously break a central tenet of programming. They are contained with !-- HTML comments -- and comments in code are not meant to be parsed as code. It's just plain badness. I don't follow you here. These comments *are meant to be* parsed by IE/Win. Wrong.. comments are not meant to be parsed by an interpreter. Comments are descriptive rather than interpretive. IMHO, the issue here is that you see C.C. as a flaw while I see them as a built-in features. AFAIK, they are *very* reliable, so I'm not really interested in what the interpreter is supposed to parse. Because parsing comments is not an exact science among interpreters anyway... Try this: !-- !-- -- hello world -- Taking one step back here from the browser level here to get closer to the programming layer would be good. The result of the use of code in comments is being focused on here rather than how the result was made. In programming, if we reach a result that appears to work based on poor coding, we don't have a solution to the problem - we have a workaround based on exploitable hacks. Mistakes building on mistakes. I do not consider CC as hacks per se. Forget that it's IE for a second and look at what is happening in the programming layer. There is an interpreter that is parsing the code, when it comes upon a comment section it blithely ignores the fact the programmer has escaped out of the interpreted part of the script and into the descriptive part of the script. Oh, you didn't want me to parse that but I'll do it anyway -- just to be sure... where could this end up? I don't know but I sure don't like the idea of any interpreter parsing comments, with unexpected results. My point is that the interpreter is not guessing anything, it is built to check if there is a conditional expression passed the --. I agree with you both that it works in this situation, but it's based on flawed programming principles and in doing this we've exposed the fact that the IE interpreter parses what's in the comment, something that's not for the interpreter to consume. Place something benign in the comment that is then interpreted as an action to be carried out - bang! the interpreter falls over or worse. It's a seriously flawed method of developing applications. The method is flawed only when badly implemented. But that's true with about everything... Within regular comments include an odd number of pair of these -- and bang! What happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some piece of software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected things. Anything inside coments is supposed to be ignored by UAs so if something goes wrong it would be because of the browser and not because of what's inside these comments. Haven't you just said above that the special conditional comments are meant to be parsed by IE/Win? I don't follow. I don't either. You're saying: What happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some piece of software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected things. IMO, there are only 2 possibilities: 1. The browser is not IE/Win 5+ : the comment is simply ignored 2. The browser is IE/Win 5+ : it checks for the presence of a conditional expression after the -- I can't think of a third one where a piece of software would evaluate what's inside the comment, unless of course we're dealing with a flawed piece of software... Comments, of course, can be machine readable such as those used to provide code documentation or CVS/SVN keywords, but these don't actually run anything or fork the code base. This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing - forking the codebase to provide slighlty different content based on the client in use. Better to get the browsers actually rendering things to the published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome). IMHO, this is a nice idea, but not very realistic. Well, if we decide not to push the doors won't open. Let's design for modern browsers only? That type of thing? Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Ouch- was: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!
Hi Terrence I try to avoid personal attacks and I thought twice before sending and once before the graphic designer attack. After sending it I realized I should have at least re-read the thing before hitting the send button. What I was referring to was this line: why you would search specifically for a date is beyond me. Do you really search alertbox in that manner? I just use the search box if I am after specfic content =) To avoid conflict and confusion this could have been better worded, just as my response could have benefited significantly by more thoughtful prose. Regardless of Jakob's web site, my point was that we shouldn't presume how someone is going to look at information and should try to offer the content as effectively as possible. Granted, we could use a span to wrap the dates and CSS to present them more attractively. This would create cleaner code and more flexibility in presentation. I think that would go way above Jakob's head. Placing this information in a table with title, date, summary, etc would be a nice alternative. I don't mean to judge you as a person or a programming. I meant to debate the concept of presenting information. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Ouch- was: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right! Hi Ted, I'm not sure where you're coming from with this. I really don't see how my previous post connects to the bigger concept of what conscientious responsible web developer's should strive for, in fact I don't even understand what you by that. Should I take it that you consider me as not conscientious nor responsible, or if I'm not with you, I'm against you? My post was not a personal attack on Nick, nor was it dismissive of his POV. Admittedly, I got the impression he was struggling to come up with an example of how alertbox is difficult to use and perhaps that has tainted my message, but I was genuinely interested in whether he truely wanted to select his articles based primarily on date. I never said that date based scanning was irrelevant - I stated that, in this case, it was secondary to the title, and in fact pointed out what (in my view) the purpose of the dates were. I didn't design alertbox, obviously, so it's anyones guess as to how it is intended to be used, but I really sincerely believe that alertbox is about as easy to use as it gets. Surely, part of usability is pruning out the complexities of an interface? Less complexity, and fewer decisions to make, in theory, should make things more obvious and easier to use. And, surely one way to do that is by not trying to cater for every possible use case? I suggest that a scanning for single word pattern say, intranet, is far easier to do than scanning a variable date range (2000 or 2001) which is the minimum of two matches and twice the mental load. It's also easier to do using your browsers find function. Would you have tried to search the list by date prior to Nicks post, or were you using that as an excercise to see if it was difficult to get results? Did you search first for the word Intranet, and then the date, or the other way around (as Nick suggests you should be able to do)? Is publication in 2000 and 2001 the primary criteria, or is it more important that it concerns Intranets? Lastly, I wonder about the wisdom of taking cheap shots at graphic designers on a list frequented by designer types, such as myself... but maybe I'm being overly sensitive to criticism? kind regards Terrence Wood. Drake, Ted C. said: Hi Terrence I think your argument is against what we, as conscientious responsible web developers should strive for. Nick states he finds the list difficult to read. That is an honest reaction, frankly I agree with his analysis of a table would be better. But you defended the list by assuming a date-based scan of the items is not relevant. We should be providing information in the most compelling manner possible. A great web developer anticipates the many ways a person will look for and at the data and prepares the page accordingly. Sure, it's easier for us to dismiss people for not using the site as we anticipated. But those people are still called graphic designers. (Sorry, I went to art school and we always sought the cheap shot at the graphic designer students a floor below) Seriously, that is what usability and accessibility is all about. Make your content easy to use. Don't dismiss someone for wanting to use it differently. By the way, after looking at the original post, I did go through and look for dates. I was trying to look for one of his 10 best intranet posts around 200, and 2001. So the first thing I looked for was the years and then scanned by title. Luckily it was chronologically sorted. Respectfully Ted
Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning
On Oct 5, 2005, at 3:06 AM, Donna Maurer wrote: The challenge was: * three columns of content * no guarantee which would be longer * vertical lines between them * a footer that spanned the full width of the screen As part of the decision, he was discussing whether he would use absolute positioning or floats for the columns. I remember him saying that he couldn't use absolute positioning because he wouldn't know which column was longest. ... I understand this is hard because you don't know which column to use as a reference for the footer positioning. But couldn't you wrap the three columns in an relatively positioned div and position the footer relative the the whole thing? The problem is that absolutely positioned elements are removed from the flow. They take up no space as far as the rest of the page is concerned, and so that relatively positioned wrapper div you invoke would only be as tall as the tallest non-absolutely-positioned element it contains. Then your footer would be positioned at the bottom of that, with the absolutely positioned elements flowing over (or under) it. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Zoom Layouts
Hey I don't think there is, but is there any sort of consensus of the use of zoom layouts? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/ http://www.joeclark.org/atmedia/atmedia-NOTES-2.html http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2005/06/24/zoom-layout.html In particular: 1) How do you signal that one is available? I'd like to use text (as opposed to an icon) but who is going to know what zoom layout means? Perhaps low-vision layout or low-vision version work better? 2) How it looks. Do you have light type on dark background or dark type on light background? I suspect that these just haven't been used enough for any good practice to have developed, but any thoughts would be of interest. Thanks! Mike SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind === ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
1) How do you signal that one is available? I'd like to use text (as opposed to an icon) but who is going to know what zoom layout means? Perhaps low-vision layout or low-vision version work better? The new Amnesty International Australia site uses a zoom layout option. The icon can be seen under the content on the bottom of each page (a reversed out A symbol): http://www.amnesty.org.au/ 2) How it looks. Do you have light type on dark background or dark type on light background? They vary. Some authors provide both light and dark coloured background versions. Amnesty's version can be seen here: http://www.amnesty.org.au/home?SQ_DESIGN_NAME=contrastSQ_ACTION=set_design_ name A good resource is here: http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001627.php Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Header text problem
I can't seem to fix the UTF problem. Any ideas? On 5 Oct 2005, at 16:13, Bert Doorn wrote: Not sure what exactly you're asking, but: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A// www.zachinglis.com/ZachInglis.html It's broken code, which may explain why you are having problems. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Joe Clarke did a speech on it earlier this year at @media... his slides can be found at http://joeclark.org/atmedia/atmedia-NOTES-2.html On 5 Oct 2005, at 16:53, Mike Brown wrote: Hey I don't think there is, but is there any sort of consensus of the use of zoom layouts? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/ http://www.joeclark.org/atmedia/atmedia-NOTES-2.html http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2005/06/24/zoom-layout.html In particular: 1) How do you signal that one is available? I'd like to use text (as opposed to an icon) but who is going to know what zoom layout means? Perhaps low-vision layout or low-vision version work better? 2) How it looks. Do you have light type on dark background or dark type on light background? I suspect that these just haven't been used enough for any good practice to have developed, but any thoughts would be of interest. Thanks! Mike SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind === ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Mike Brown wrote: I don't think there is, but is there any sort of consensus of the use of zoom layouts? 1) How do you signal that one is available? I'd like to use text (as opposed to an icon) but who is going to know what zoom layout means? Perhaps low-vision layout or low-vision version work better? 2) How it looks. Do you have light type on dark background or dark type on light background? I actually had a bit of a discussion with Joe Clark on this issue during his London workshop last month. I'd argue that users of things like screen magnifiers, who are the target audience for zoom layouts, don't need excessively larger fonts and that the reversing of colours should also be taken care of by their AT. As for naming, imho it would also make sense to simply call it single column / large size or similar... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Header text problem
G'day I can't seem to fix the UTF problem. Any ideas? If you mean the first of the 35 validation errors, have a look at what the validator suggests: ...perhaps you meant to self-close an element, that is, ending it with / instead of . So, meta . / instead of meta Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Patrick H. Lauke said: I actually had a bit of a discussion with Joe Clark on this issue during his London workshop last month. I'd argue that users of things like screen magnifiers, who are the target audience for zoom layouts, don't need excessively larger fonts and that the reversing of colours should also be taken care of by their AT. Meaning that the value of zoom layouts is what? Just that it's putting content is a single column to prevent overlap etc? And that the larger text and colour changes aren't actually needed? Again, I guess these are all the discussions we should be having now as the idea of doing this is new. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Header text problem
BBEdit had a / at the end, I don't know why the source didn't. Fixed now though. Cheers On 5 Oct 2005, at 17:36, Bert Doorn wrote: G'day I can't seem to fix the UTF problem. Any ideas? If you mean the first of the 35 validation errors, have a look at what the validator suggests: ...perhaps you meant to self-close an element, that is, ending it with / instead of . So, meta . / instead of meta Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Mike Brown wrote: Meaning that the value of zoom layouts is what? Just that it's putting content is a single column to prevent overlap etc? Not just overlap, but mainly that things aren't positioned off to the right, where users with screen magnifiers won't normally look for them. And that the larger text and colour changes aren't actually needed? If for the zoom layout's css you don't define any font size below 100% and don't define a specific foreground/background colour, yes. I also proposed that CSS system colours may have a positive role to play here...to hell that they're deprecated in CSS 3 (something I've argued against on the WWW-Style list, garnering a moderate amount of support). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] using the * within a selector
Hi All
I'd like to replace this:
a[hreflang=sp]:after, a[hreflang=sp-mx]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-us]:after, a[hreflang=sp-sp]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-hn]:after, a[hreflang=sp-cu]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-co]:after, a[hreflang=sp-ec]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-gt]:after, a[hreflang=sp-pa]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-cr]:after, a[hreflang=sp-pe]:after,
a[hreflang=sp-bo]:after, a[hreflang=sp-cl]:after { content:\A0(In
Spanish); font-size:90%; color:#666;}
with this:
a[hreflang=sp]:after, a[hreflang=sp-*]:after {content:\A0(In Spanish);
font-size:90%; color:#666;}
Is there a way to use the wildcard inside a selector like this?
Thanks
Ted
www.tdrake.net
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: As for naming, imho it would also make sense to simply call it single column / large size or similar... ..or *linearized* / large text-size... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Use of asterisk in ALT
Hi all I recently stumbled across a site (sorry lost the reference now) that made reference to the fact that an asterisk should be used inside an ALT attribute (eg alt=*) when the image is only used for presentation purposes. Apparantly this is helpful for screen readers. Can anyone reaffirm this? I thought that an empty ALT attribute was preferrable. A search on Google seems to confirm the confusion. Thanks Sarah :) -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] using the * within a selector
On 10/5/05, Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
a[hreflang=sp]:after, a[hreflang=sp-*]:after {content:\A0(In Spanish);
font-size:90%; color:#666;}
Is there a way to use the wildcard inside a selector like this?
a[hreflang*=sp]::after { ... }
See: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-2003/#selectors
N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i�� n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��
Re: [WSG] using the * within a selector
On 10/5/05, Rob Mientjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
a[hreflang*=sp]::after { ... }
See: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-2003/#selectors
Or a[hreflang^=sp]::after { ... } just to make sure it only selects
attributes starting with sp and nothing else.
Re: [WSG] Use of asterisk in ALT
On 10/5/05, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I recently stumbled across a site (sorry lost the reference now) that made reference to the fact that an asterisk should be used inside an ALT attribute (eg alt=*) when the image is only used for presentation purposes. Maybe it was talking about images used for bullets and the like? Because if so, yes, it would _kinda_ make sense to use an asterisk as alt text, but surely we know better and use ULs for that purpose? ;)
[WSG] How do I vertical-align bottom
I have a div inside a table cell that needs to align to the bottom but can't get it to work. Can anyone help? http://www.sgi.com/tempie/box.html Janelle ClemensWeb Programmer, SGI[EMAIL PROTECTED](650) 933-9362
RE: [WSG] How do I vertical-align bottom
2 options spring to mind: (1) give the div margin-top to push it to the bottom. This way, even if the above content expands, the div *should* still appear at the bottom of the table cell (2) Rowspan the other two cells and split the third (containing the div) into two rows eg: --- | | | | | | | cell 3 | | | | | | cell 1| cell 2| | | (rowspan = 2) | (rowspan = 2) | | | | | | | | |--- | | | cell 4 | | | |(vert-align: bottom) | | | |(contains div) | --- Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] How do I vertical-align bottom
Thanks Paul. I was hoping to find a solution without having to split the cell. But I might have to go that route. :-) Janelle -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:51 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do I vertical-align bottom 2 options spring to mind: (1) give the div margin-top to push it to the bottom. This way, even if the above content expands, the div *should* still appear at the bottom of the table cell (2) Rowspan the other two cells and split the third (containing the div) into two rows eg: --- | | | | | | | cell 3 | | | | | | cell 1| cell 2| | | (rowspan = 2) | (rowspan = 2) | | | | | | | | |--- | | | cell 4 | | | |(vert-align: bottom) | | | |(contains div) | --- Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Hi Mike, Seems that making user's aware of what 'zoom', 'single column', 'high/low contrast', 'low graphics' or any of the other alternatives is another issue like that of educating new users about browser 'Text size' options. From personal experience, when first stumbling upon issues of web standards / accessibility etc. links like 'XHTML' and 'CSS' (as links to online validation services) and the 'AAA' ratings for accessibility were less than clear. Although it would be great to think otherwise, *task-focused* users rarely follow a link or click a button 'out of curiosity'. Perhaps 'Zoom' has been borrowed from the Microsoft Word interface for magnifying the page. Further to this, 'What do I know' [1] uses common wysiwyg interface convention to signal that page layout can be customised. From a graphical perspective the issue is indicating the change that will be affected by choosing a layout 'option'. Using 'What do I know' as an example, the various-sized 'T's are an effective illustration of what their activation will achieve: an increase or decrease in type size. Perhaps an icon that indication of a single column (maybe with an obviously enlarged 'T')? The irony is that icon-i-fying the Zoom display preference is likely to make it smaller, and assuming the feature is to cater to people with visual impairment, the option may well be overlooked. A companion issue is the consideration of user expectations: that websites are often perceived as more akin to a printed page than an application. As such (at least in the usability tests we've conducted) the user's expectation is that the page is 'the way it should be' and the concept of customising layout or display is still alien/novel. The point raised by Patrick is also interesting, namely that we should recognise that the user experience is not solely the domain of web authors. While (admittedly with the best of intentions), we attempt to build layout controls into content, there are dedicated programs developed to improve the browsing experience for users with specific accessibility requirements. References [1] What do I know http://whatdoiknow.org Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Use of asterisk in ALT
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I recently stumbled across a site (sorry lost the reference now) that made reference to the fact that an asterisk should be used inside an ALT attribute (eg alt=*) when the image is only used for presentation purposes. Apparantly this is helpful for screen readers. It's an outdated piece of advice. Old screen readers did not cope with empty alts, so alt=* was suggested as a viable default: screen readers apparently didn't read that out on normal settings. However, nowadays the suggested practice is the null alt, alt= Or, to quote the RNIB Some sites may still use an asterisk for these images i.e. ALT=*. RNIB previously recommended this when screen readers where unable to pick up on empty or null ALT text. This issue no longer exists, so, as a strong recommendation and not a requirement, we encourage sites to switch to null or empty ALT text. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/public_alttext.hcsp#P16_1774 (halfway down, under Layout images) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Andy Kirkwood|Motive said: Perhaps an icon that indication of a single column (maybe with an obviously enlarged 'T')? Might I suggest a magnifying glass over the 'T', or a '+' as an icon? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Use of asterisk in ALT
Thank you for the update and link Patrick, that's good to know. It's an outdated piece of advice. Old screen readers did not cope with empty alts, so alt=* was suggested as a viable default: screen readers apparently didn't read that out on normal settings. However, nowadays the suggested practice is the null alt, alt= This issue no longer exists, so, as a strong recommendation and not a requirement, we encourage sites to switch to null or empty ALT text. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/ public_alttext.hcsp#P16_1774 (halfway down, under Layout images) -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
That's what makes selecting a suitable representation difficult. With a 'T' and magnifying-glass icon, would the user expect to have their layout transformed from 2 or 3 columns to a single column or a high/low contrast layout? Perhaps the type size, layout and contrast options should be separated as is usually the case with monitor setting controls (brightness, contrast, etc.). A point raised (by a non-WSG member) is also to consider the length of time a user will spend on a website. Obviously an unknown quantity, but the typical expectation of web content seems to be the 'quick fix', e.g. enter a term into a search engine, link to the page, find the info, move on. Display controls pre-suppose extended browsing of a single website, to the extent that the user would seek to customise the interface. This is why such controls are perhaps better left to browser developers; to ensure a consist/usable experience *across websites* rather than rely on controls that may or may not be available on a site-by-site basis. Might I suggest a magnifying glass over the 'T', or a '+' as an icon? -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
James Bennett wrote: On 10/3/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most Linux systems have neither Verdana nor Arial installed, at least not by default. True, but these days nearly every Linux distribution ships the free Bitstream Vera font set, which includes a sans-serif with metrics similar to Verdana. Also, the core web fonts are typically available as an easily-installed package for most distributions, which will provide Verdana and other fonts. I've found that the following works well for providing compatibility to Linux users (and as a full-time Linux user for a number of years, I can personally attest to its effectiveness): Verdana, Bitstream Vera Sans, Lucida Sans, sans-serif I would assume that the most linux users either 1) have 'core web fonts' installed or 2) don't mind having web pages that look really weird. Browsing the web without that package will get you lots of issues all over the place (even with it I stumble across websites every once in a while with unreadibly small font-sizes. That said, I have Verdana on my Linux box (and it looks way better than Poley's windows(?) version does). The other important thing to note is that the vast majority of users either can't scale fonts because they're using a broken coughIE/cough browser or because the don't know how (or even that it was an option). It's very important to have readable defaults. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Because it's an ugly bastard of Helvetica? I'm no typographist but my sister absolutely hates that font. However, Windows donsn't really have any nice looking fonts anyways. T. R. Valentine wrote: On 04/10/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO arial isn't so hot for the web anyway. OK, I'd like to hear some opinions. A lot of the pages I produce need, for technical reasons, a Unicode font (especially the 0370–03FF, 0400–04FF, 0500–052F, 1F00–1FFF, and 2000–206F ranges). I find 'Arial Unicode MS' very handy for this. Plus, it is a sans-serif style which is generally regarded as superior to a serif font for screen reading. A typical CSS entry for me is: font-family:'Arial Unicode MS','Everson Mono Unicode', 'Palatino Linotype',Code2000,'TITUS Cyberbit Basic','Athena Roman', Athena; (I know I don't have a generic, but that's because there really isn't a suitable generic.) So my questions are: what is wrong with Arial (Arial Unicode MS in particular)? are there better font alternatives? (I generally provide links for downloading these fonts because there is not a reliable means of providing fonts to web users.) I would very much appreciate suggestions. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
