RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Lists are usually preceded by either a heading or a lead-in sentence. h1Characteristics of a well-formed list/h1 ul liList items have parallel forms./li li.../li /ul pWell-formed lists have:/p ul liparallel forms/li li.../ ul Think about how the list will appear with style sheets off: if you make the title/heading the first item in the list, then you've turned what's semantically a list of n items into a list of n+1 items. It's semantically appropriate to mark up the heading with h? even though it may mess with your structure in the sense of grading headings nicely (h1, h2 etc). Perhaps not so much of a problem if you place your menu after your content and use style sheets to place it. Regards, Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dan Freeman Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2012 6:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? I wouldn't recommend that. It may look OK stylistically, but not semantically. I believe H? before the list makes the most sense. - Dan Freeman -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of coder Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? ul li class=title strongQuick links/strong /li li a href=noticeboard.html title=news and Notices Noticeboard /a /li li a href=site/sitemap.html title=A list of site contents, with links Sitemap /a /li li a href=site/sitepolicy.html Site policy /a /li li a href=site/links.html title=further information Useful links /a /li /ul?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: looks like back in 1984 people could use LH for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. how to do it in 2012? h? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
This story gives no information about whether the person referred to can or cannot use a browser 'efficiently'. To do her job she presumably needs to use the web, but there's no reason to believe that she needs to know that the user agent she uses to do that is called a browser, let alone that it's called Internet Explorer. The lack of a common vocabulary makes it difficult to troubleshoot, but there are no grounds for believing that she can't do her job effectively. Very few people get comprehensive training in the software they use in their day-to-day work (and I say that as an ex-IT trainer in a large government department). Most get enough training - formally or informally - to get by. Once they have found a way of completing a particular task, they are unlikely to take the time to look for other, more efficient, ways of doing it. In many cases, investing that time would pay off many times over, but the fact remains that it means taking time away from the stuff that they're being paid to do right now. Even though my children's generation - today's young adults - have grown up with the web, most of them still find one way of doing something, and then stick to it, rather than exploring alternatives. In any event, there is little to be gained by designing websites based on what you think your users ought to know, if it doesn't match what they actually do know. Back to the original question: should a link to a different website open in a new window or not? If you force the new page to open in a new window (or tab), you are taking control of the user experience. Obviously, this will suit some of your users, but it will irritate those who know how to open a new window but don't want to, and confuse those who don't recognise what you've done. Jakob Neilsen has argued for more than a decade that opening new windows confuses the user and breaks the most commonly recognised browser feature: the back button. A SitePoint article making several of these points is here: http://www.sitepoint.com/beware-opening-links-new-window/ Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Tom Ditmars Sent: Friday, 30 December 2011 6:32 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has done for 10 years that I know of. That is the failure of either her employer for failing to train her properly or herself for failing seeking the appropriate training to do her job. Web developers should not and cannot be expected to cater to users who use the [Web] 5 days a week ... for 10 years and refuse to learn to use it efficiently. I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Hi Jay I wouldn't dream of calling you a dragon: I like dragons. Refusing to cater to the needs of people with disabilities means exposing your clients to the risk of law suits (depending on the jurisdiction in which you're working). This strikes me, not as 'no- nonsense', but as unprofessional. People with disabilities are a large and diverse group, and their needs often overlap with non- disabled groups. If a website is being (re)developed for a government organisation or large business, then there should be room in the budget for usability testing, and some of that testing should be specifically targeted at disabled users. As Chris has noted, fixing problems for disabled users can lead to improvements in the site for everyone. On the other hand, if a site is being built for a small business or non-profit organisation, there may be no budget for usability testing: in that case, I would recommend building to standards and following commonly-accepted guidelines. It may not meet everybody's needs, but should meet most. (I'd also recommend including an editor in the team, but of course I'm biassed.) Elizabeth Spiegel Web editor www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris Knowles Sent: Saturday, 27 August 2011 7:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? we have a new super-hero in our midst, keeping the city safe from people with disabilities and their nonsense. You'll see him in a costume pushing in front of disabled people trying to get on a bus and yelling his catch phrase 'tough luck' as the the door closes. Thanks No Nonsense Man! -- Chris Knowles On 26/08/11 3:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] FINAL VERSION OF MY SITE
Hi Marvin Other people have commented on your code; I'll just add a few points on the content. Copyright page: the likelihood of the AFP prosecuting someone for breach of copyright is minuscule (particularly where we're talking about the content on a commercial site). Just state that the material is copyright; no unauthorised reproduction allowed etc. My own site says: All text and images on the site are C Elizabeth Spiegel, 2005-2009; all rights reserved. You may link to any page on this site, on condition that it is not framed to give the impression that it belongs to or is associated with your own site, business or organisation. [note to self - must update the date range!] The statement that 'This information is accurate at this current time' is meaningless without an indication of when it was written/updated - I would omit it altogether. On the other hand, on produce.html, the date the page was updated is very important: I don't want to turn up at Joe's to take advantage of his cheap carrots, only to discover that the price hasn't been updated in months. Also on this page you have oranges at $1.49kg per kg - lose the first kg. Make and document decisions about details like capitalisation and punctuation. It's less a matter of there being a right way (although there are any number of style guides around) than one of using a consistent approach. Most authorities these days tend to lean towards minimal caps and punctuation (so Pty Ltd, not PTY. LTD.) On your list of Today's specials, for example, mushrooms are $3.99 / kg. while strawberries are $2.99 a Punnet. and tomatoes are $7.99 a tray. Decide whether or not to use spaces either side of the slash, a period after kg, and whether to capitalise both trays and punnets, or neither. I would probably have combined the History and Staff pages into an About us (or About Joe's) page. I'd also combine the Fruit and vegetable links and Fruit and vegetable recipes pages into a single page (after all, they're both lists of links). Overall, a pleasant and easy-to-use site. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:47 AM To: WSG@WEBSTANDARDSGROUP.ORG Subject: [WSG] FINAL VERSION OF MY SITE HI. CAN SOME ONE TAKE A FINAL LOOK AT THIS SITE. AND GOT 2 FONTS. ONE VERDANA AND ONE Arial black. do i need any other fonts. and does it look really good? and also any other improvements. let me know. and if i need to make any changes. tell me how to do this. marvin. http://www.raulferrer.com/joe/html/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
Hi Russ http://www.monotone.com.au/ as far as I can see, no tab access at all. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 2:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites Hi people, A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible 3. examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers (He is aware of the Harry Potter Flash site, but is after other, possibly more recent examples) Please no comments about the merits or lack of merits of Flash. This is for some research he is conduction. :) Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] :: makeready ::
Hi David Not a comment about your code, but your information design. Why are the images/examples of effective use scattered across the site and in some cases repeated? Why not place them on a 'using our product' (or similar) page? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2010 8:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] :: makeready :: Comments and suggestions on this site appreciated. markup http://chelseacreekstudio.com/mhr/ css http://chelseacreekstudio.com/mhr/css/style.css Thanks. ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] RE: More than one H1?
This is an argument which never seems to go away. Unfortunately the HTML 4 spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 confuses things a little by referring to the relative importance of different heading levels, rather than their structural function. Nevertheless, it also says A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically How a logo can be said to describe the section it introduces, or be used in a table of contents, is a mystery to me. Even the argument that the logo is one of the most important piece of information on the page is a bit thin: it's important to the site owner, but is it really the most important element to the reader? Google's advice to webmasters emphasises well-written, well-structured content, written with the user in mind. In my opinion, this includes using headings as headings i.e. text which describes the content it introduces. Although this tip is some years old, I see no reason to believe that the advice is incorrect http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/Use_h1_for_Title Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing cid:image002.png@01CA4FD9.A1958A30 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Marilyn Langfeld Sent: Friday, 16 October 2009 7:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest) Speaking as both publications, graphic and web designer, the real problem has always been that the title resides in the head, not in a title tag inside the body. H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. This confusion wouldn't have happened if HTML had a T1 and maybe T2 tag (title and subtitle). So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Of course, all web pages aren't documents, which confuses the issue. But I believe this is the back story, at least it's what makes sense to me. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld cid:image001.png@01CA4FCD.D09053D0 www.langfeldesigns.com m...@langfeldesigns.com +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:08 AM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Thanks for your responses... Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal importance. Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page? I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding. I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more than one H1. Quoting Yuval Ararat yara...@gmail.com: Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is not severe so not every one of the major sites obey. In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header taghttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#header http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#headerand and the existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of pages to be. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before... Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag. The title of each page is also a H1. Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably better if there was only one H1 on each page. Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory? I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return email doesn't have SEO expert on it. Many thanks. Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
RE: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window
Hi Carolyn I'm with Jakob on this one - as far as opening new windows is concerned anyway. I used to think it was unnecessary, but while user testing something else, noticed that when PDFs opened without a new browser window, many users would then close the document and be annoyed that the browser had closed. Do make sure that you indicate the file size and type, so that they're not surprised by the file type and have some warning of how long it's likely to take. I don't agree with the idea of forcing them to save the file to disk before opening it - that's not based on user testing, just the fact that it would really p* me off! Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Carolyn Diaz Sent: Friday, 6 February 2009 8:31 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.) I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it changes the focus? What do you think? Carolyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***image001.png
RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
Hi Alan Interesting that they justify layout tables on the basis that some users may have IE5, yet have a slow, graphics-heavy site which will take forever to load without a broadband connection. How many users I wonder have a screen width of more than 1024px plus IE5 plus broadband? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Alan Berman Sent: Monday, 19 January 2009 12:29 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? Educational Networks has been courted our administration (for El Camino Real High School in southern California) for the last couple of years. I finally let them come to show me their stuff, intending to show them what I had put together for my school site as a discussion starter; they are not used to talking to people who have done this sort of work--content management is the magic wand they offer to the schools, so when there's something that's already set up that way they have a tough time getting past a solution that isn't theirs: http://ecr.lausd.k12.ca.us http://ecr.lausd.k12.ca.us/ (Please note that the Student Info page, linked from the navbar, is entirely designed by and controlled by a former student--it is rife with errors and designed without any regard to consistency with the overall site design. I know about it and have no time to do anything about it except ask for forgiveness at present.) I welcome comments, of course, but that's not the reason I'm sending this message. Most of the site is content-managed (I did the PHP myself, no use of any sort of CMS framework or engine--for better or worse) and I have used Mike Cherim's contact form (although I styled it to fold in with the site, I think). The rep they sent wasn't really very conversant on the technology, but did write down all of my issues, including these points: 1. All their sites (and they have done MANY) look exactly the same if you squint: fixed-width, scrolling banners, etc. 2. All their sites load slowly. 3. All their sites are invalid for HTML and CSS 4. All of their sites fare unfavorably against any accessibility guidelines 5. All of their sites weren't as good (IMHO) as what I had already made etc. When the rep went back to EN with her tail betwixt her legs, she must have talked to some tech people, then sent back a note with her signature; this is an excerpt from her note. Perhaps this will help clarify their position, at least as of last year. And one would think that, regarding the last comment about accessibility, if they can do it as a tech support request, why not just build it into ALL their sites? It's all part of the deep structure of the CMS, right? Well, it should be. . . *** EXCERPT FROM EN'S RESPONSE*** 4) CSS vs. Tables. This is a vary valid discussion and here are the considerations in making a decision as to what approach to take: - All our sites use CSS for a lot of centralization in terms of backgrounds, fonts, styles, it is efficient, works robustly and beautifully. - Most of the tables are not handled through CSS because CSS is not reliable across various browsers the way each renders HTML. We design our sites to be correctly visible from IE 5, Firefox, even on Mac's with IE 5 (which is no longer supported by Microsoft). Our public sites should operate properly even on exotic OS's or old browsers as in many communities people have old computers with old browsers. When tables are implemented one can also correctly handle more complex tables. CSS is fine with simple listing tables such as a 1 X N matrixes (like one can see on the homepage of ECR), but imagine a 3X3 matrix where the requirement would be to merge the first two cells starting from the most left column for only on the top row. This would be a nightmare to handle through CSS, thus the correct choice would be to use the Table approach. - The sites we built are portals with unified navigational structures. The header, footer, left nav bar (if there is one) would come from includes using a proprietary technology (a bit like portlets) which also works most efficiently with tables, rather than CSS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_web_design#Liquid_versus_fixed_layouts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_web_design has an excellent discussion about Table vs. CSS. At Educational Networks we do follow closely all new technologies and implement them as they become widely available and have proven track records of being robust and mainstream. A good example would be RSS enabling most dynamic sections and ICAL compatibility of our calendars. There are numerous Web 2.0 technologies with lots of eye candy and we constantly evaluate them before reliably implementing them. For example, last year we AJAX enabled several applications of the CMS in the back-end such as Food Menu and Events Calendar, and Settings as it was the appropriate
[WSG] RE: # Flash accessibility
Hi Matt You said: I have to challenge that assertion, as the engineer who's principally responsible for improving the accessibility of Flash. Having followed Flash accessibility since it was first introduced (in 2002), I can tell you that it has improved dramatically since that time, to the extent that I'd argue accessible RIA development in Flash today is more efficient (and definitely better-supported) than the same work done in Ajax. When I review HTML websites, I have a range of tools I can use to check their accessibility. Are there equivalent tools I can use to check the accessibility of Flash? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi Kate You said: do need to study how frames work (naming) too. Nononono! Frames are awful for accessibility and usability (iFrames are arguably better). I can't think of an example of a really good framed site (although other list members may be able to offer some). I used to say the same of Flash, but did eventually find some sites demonstrating really clever and appropriate uses for it. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.png
RE: [WSG] Re: Searching for standards information
Hi Ben In Australia, HREOC is responsible for administering various anti-discrimination legislation, including the Disability Discrimination Act. (It comes under the banner of 'equal opportunities' rather than 'human rights'.) One form of discrimination is offering a service to one group and refusing to offer it, or offering on less advantageous terms, to another group. For website designers/builders, this means that if you sell stuff (or even just offer free information) to the general public and present it in such a way that people with a disability (e.g. blind people using screen readers; people with movement disorders that make it difficult/impossible to use a mouse) can't access it, you are breaking the law. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benedict Wyss Sent: Saturday, 25 October 2008 11:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Searching for standards information Hi Andrew, First off..good reply. I like the last paragraph re human rights. Even though I don't need to be forced to be compliant to standards as I have a conscience but (and excuse my ignorance) when has being able to access the internet a human right. I thought it was the domain of things like security, sustenance and protection from the elements. I am further thinking that in order to obtain justifiable rights the movement inevitably swings heavily to the right/left in an attempt to end up in the middle ground. I am interested in hearing peoples thoughts on this one. Is it a human right or...? [disclosure: no offense intended] Cheers, On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Andrew Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, AGIMO publishes guidelines that cover some of what you asked for - it is up to individual organisations as to which guidelines they follow and how far - it shouldn't be that way but it is. Each organisation that I've worked in over the last 25 years in Government has had their own writing standards - and since there has been a web, their own web content/usability/accessibility standards in one form or another. Most are compliant in some way or another with WCAG 1.0 - but this is based on interpretation, and these interpretations vary between organisations. Privacy is looked after by the Australian Privacy Commissioner (http://www.privacy.gov.au/). An study of the Australian Government web standards environment is not complete without examining the role of the Australian Human Rights Commission (http://www.hreoc.gov.au). One of the Commissioners, Graeme Innes, has put the lot of us on notice - he will (to use his words) name and shame organisations that have inaccessible sites. He has started this already. Cheers, Andrew On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Benedict Wyss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then the clouds parted... http://webpublishing.agimo.gov.au/ If anyone wants to add then please do so but shall consider this closed. Cheers, On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Benedict Wyss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am looking for any and all links to comprehensive listings of: 1. Australian Government Industry Best Practices 2. Australian Government Standards (Privacy, Accessibility and Usability) I have been googling for a while and coming up with bunk. All assistance welcomed. Thanks, Ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- --- Andrew Boyd http://onblogging.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Font-size inheritance issue?
Hi Lyn Won't guarantee this is the source of your woes, but on the Operations page, the h2OPERATIONS isn't closed. Another couple of minor points - I'd suggest adjusting the line spacing on your lis - in Firefox they look crowded by comparison with the para above; I'd also suggest using spaced endashes (#8211;) rather than hyphens where appropriate e.g. dividing the Latin and common names of the weeds illustrated. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lynette Smith Sent: Saturday, 25 October 2008 1:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Font-size inheritance issue? Good morning http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/EWAN/index.html Two pages uploaded: Home and Operation. Does anyone know why the font-size (specified in css - body 80%) is different on these two pages? Home is the correct one, but it is bigger on the second page and the succeeding page (not uploaded). Thanks! Lyn www.westernwebdesign Perth, Western Australia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] Lawsuits for inaccessible websites
Hi Tee Like most things in the law, there's no clear-cut answer to that. Like the DDA in the UK (as I understand it), it's up to an individual to make a complaint that they have been discriminated by on the basis of their disability. The HREOC guidelines tend to suggest that if you've built your site to at least WCAG level A you should be fairly safe saying that you've taken 'reasonable care'. Government websites are required to reach level A - there's an interesting argument going on at the moment re the new http://www.grocerychoice.com.au/ website: http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,24141741-15319,00.html William noted that ... for commercial organisations, if they are not providing a service where they are the sole provider and access point, the lines get fuzzy on what is and is not disciminatory. I'm not sure that he's right in that: there haven't been any cases regarding websites, but there has been at least one case regarding access to educational services and the (private) school concerned wasn't sole provider. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 12:19 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Lawsuits for inaccessible websites Thanks for the info, Elizabeth. Aussie members in this list must be very proud of this law :-) Let's just hope no gold-digger lawyer sees an opportunity there! Is the requirement for this law higher per WCAG guidelines (A, AA, or AAA)? For example, Section 508 is really low standard in my opinion. tee On Aug 15, 2008, at 9:07 PM, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: Hi Tee In Australia, websites are covered by Disability Discrimination legislation, although there has only been one successful suit to date. Bruce Maguire was awarded damages of $20,000 against SOCOG in 2000: full details here: http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/decisions/comdec/2000/DD000120.htm Note that the target was not by any measure a 'small business'. HREOC provides advisory notes http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] dl question
Hi Joe Just curious - why a separate dl for each property - surely this is just one list of properties? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Taylor Sent: Tuesday, 5 August 2008 12:05 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] dl question To clarify, when people use a definition list for something other than actual definitions and terms, they usually use the dt's and dd's to represent the relationship of the items within the dl. For example - markup for a list of properties for sale: dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl In this case the dt's handle the terms, or way we identify a property - by a picture of it or by address. The dd's handle the attributes of the property: bedrooms, baths, price etc. You can apply this principle to almost any information - sometimes a tabular layout works even better - it just depends on your needs. The dl used in this examples works great on crappy cellphones since its elements stack. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stuart Foulstone wrote: A dl is a LIST of definition terms and their description. dt is a definition term to be described (not title). dd is description of the definition term. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 On Mon, August 4, 2008 4:20 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was under the impression a dl could only contain one dt and one or many dd's. But I have just come across a piece of code that uses multiple dt's in the one dl Upon further investigation, it seems this is legitimate practicebut does it make sense?!?! Semantically, isn't the whole point of a dl to use definition data tags (dd's) to describe a definition title (dt)!? Does it make sense to have multiple definition titles in the same dl?! Or does it make more sense to have a seperate dl for each dt?? __ Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] columns with matching vertical alignment
The problem with this approach is what happens when you re-size text - in the example below it only takes one level of enlargement to have text overlapping. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens-Uwe Korff Sent: Thursday, 10 July 2008 6:04 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] columns with matching vertical alignment I would like to know the best (or at least better and simple) way to achieve this kind of design. [horizontally aligned lists at the end of parallel columns] Hi Ben, I'd keep the content together for semantic reasons. Then you need to assess the maximum text you allow for both the paragraphs and the lists. Calculate the maximum heights, then set the container height and absolutely position the list to the bottom. It might require some business rules around the allowed number of characters or words. Check out this site: http://www.moneymanager.com.au/ and remove list items (with Firebug) of the Calculate your... lists. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
I have to say I'm at a loss to see how a poem can be interpreted as a list! One of the simplest tests (for me) of 'is this markup semantically appropriate?' is to consider what your reaction would be if you saw it without styles (or more correctly, with default styling). I would certainly be taken aback to see a verse marked up as a bulleted list! And consider the effect in a screen reader: would it help the vistor to hear at the beginning of each verse 'list of twelve items bullet Shall I compare the to a summer's day? Bullet Thou art more lovely and more temperate bullet etc' Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aldona Sent: Sunday, 22 June 2008 12:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems I've been reading the marking up poems thread with interest but it seems no one has made what seems to be the most obvious suggestion. When I was still in class we had an exercise with a poem and used an unordered list. Would this be a viable option? You could even have a different list for each verse and then still do the fancy styling. What do people think of that as an option? IceKat Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Must you Australian's *always* have the last say? ;) not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party Is that why what you say most often makes no sense? :-) Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] MA in web development
Hi Jason I completed a BA(Internet Studies), majoring in design, at Curtin Uni nearly two years ago. I could have enrolled for the MA as the only pre-requisite was a degree, but chose breadth rather than depth for various reasons. Current course outlines for the MA: http://handbook.curtin.edu.au/courses/30/301512.html ; BA: http://handbook.curtin.edu.au/courses/30/303574.html . You can see that many of the subjects are the same: at the postgraduate level they cost more. I'd like to hope the assessment is more rigorous too, but I wouldn't like to put money on it. Getting into the nitty-gritty of the degree, I'd like to hope that any design/development assessments inlcuded accessibility as an essential assessment criterion. At post-graduate level I would certainly expect to see project management and information management either as specific subjects or as elements of broader subjects. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 8:31 AM To: wsg Subject: [WSG] MA in web development Hello everyone, Last night a proposal has been hinted at me to put together an MA course in web development for a UK University. That's all I have been told so far. I was wondering what people were feeling such a course ought to contain. I have my views of course, but would not like to influence the feedback at this point. All suggestions are very much appreciated. Regards, Jason Grant www.flexewebs.com/semantix *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Hi lib Please don't leave: this list needs all the polite members it can get! I work for a large government organisation using a CMS to publish to an intranet and an internet site. We do have a couple of groups that don't use the CMS for various historical reasons, and in the past had more. This does cause headaches, because (among other things) we have other people saying 'why can't we do xyz, when that group over there does it' and the answer is 'because the CMS (as set up) can't handle it and you don't get out of using the corporate solution just because you want to be different'. On the other hand, the CMS is very restrictive and produces truly horrible code; I can easily understand anyone wanting to stay away from it. You've raised an interesting question about breadcrumbs: do they show structure or a path through the site? I have yet to find one that really did show a user how they reached that point, UNLESS they followed a neat path through the hierarchy. Most show where a particular page fits within the structure of the site; this may or may not be reflected in a directory structure. Even in an intranet, an information architecture that reflects the organisation's structure is probably not the most useful. I think it was in a Gerry McGovern article I read the assertion that most people within organisations believed that the intranet should be organised by topics or tasks EXCEPT their own area, which of course should be kept together. Given the extra information you've provided, I can certainly agree that there is little or no benefit to your users in adding a line of breadcrumbs to the top of the page. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of libwebdev Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2008 11:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability Wow. Make a genuine enquiry, and get this. I see this list is living up to its reputation for rudeness that I was warned about before I joined. I asked for opinions on the use of breadcrumbs for the reason I stated: because I was under the impression that they showed the user's path to the current page, and the ones we're being urged to employ simply show organisational structure. I even asked Am I wrong?, and was prepared to take the information on board if organisational structure as breadcrumbs was considered acceptable. Some people have been courteous enough to express their views on the matter, and I thank them very much for that. They seemed perfectly capable of doing so without reading non-existant motives into my question. I'm not interested in gathering guru evidence to support my own view. Our webmaster would not be the slightest bit interested in anything this group has to say, what with the CMS-driven invalid muck with URLs that look like mathematical formulas that he cranks out. @Anton We are permitted, with good grace and with genuine offers of help if we need it, to have our site reside outside the CMS. I know for a fact that when someone did ask why is the library outside the CMS?, the webmaster told them because they can do it themselves. He's fine with it. It's people like me who get thanked on a daily basis for having an intuitive, fast-loading, accessible, usable web site ... thank goodness you're not in with the rest of them. ... your site is better and so much easier to use. Web standards and interoperability?? The webmaster gets a distinct deer-in-the-headlights look on his face when I utter words such as those. That is why we're out of it and will stay out of it until the organisation reuqests that we join. Incidentally, it appears I was mistaken in my original post: the breadcrumb trail will *not* include the current page, but will appear like so (on 200+ pages): Parent Org Clinical Services Library This seems even less effective than I originally thought. Clinical Services have nothing to do with us, and we have nothing to do with them, and we have a clear link back to the parent org on every page of our site. We used to be under IT, then under Executive. It changes all the time because they don't know where we fit. I know our user-base, and they are simply NOT going to say oh, now I've finished with the library site, I think I'll just pop up to Clinical Services. They use our site for reasons completely unrelated to the department above us, and indeed that of our parent org. I will, however, consider carefully the comments of those who offered their views on this type of breadcrumb usage. I don't particularly enjoy being abused by strangers for posting an honest question, so I think it's time I unsubscribed. Is that petulant enough for you Mark, or should I also slam the door on my way out? thanks, lib. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: libwebdev wrote
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Jason Part of the problem (and I know I'm biased) is that not enough website developers/publishers employ editors, whose bread and butter is information design - how to effectively break up content and provide signposts that help readers navigate their way through mountains of text. An effective heading tells you something about the content which follows it. In a well-structured document, a level 1 heading tells me about all the stuff between it and the next level 1 heading. A logo is more like the title which often appears as the verso running head in a book: it reminds you what book you're reading, but doesn't tell you anything specific about this chapter/section. Gerry McGovern has written a few times about the undervaluing of content as exemplified by a development process where the team gets to a few weeks before launch date and suddenly says OK, where's the content? All that stuff that replaces lorem ipsum? Much waving of hands and the expectation that the words will materialise out of thin air. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing topleft 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Friday, 30 May 2008 8:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here. This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5 Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what h1 is there for. Kind regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com -- see also here where h1 appears on the page and how logo is done. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the feedback regarding this. I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo and reserving the h1 for the main page title, this seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a h1 anyway for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO. On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the h1 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.gif
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Chris I'm not convinced that h1 is semantically correct for a logo (or even banner). I would normally expect the h1 to be similar to the title - it indicates what the whole page is about (but not the whole site). Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing topleft 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.gif
RE: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?
Hi all I can't agree that it's generational: a couple of years ago I was involve in user testing for a site aimed at young people - 18 to 25 years old; daily internet users. A number weren't aware of the convention that a corporate logo in the top left corner of the screen is almost always a home page link; one who complained of the size of the text wasn't aware of the fact that she could re-size it (of course it doesn't help that so many sites make this more difficult than necessary). For most tasks, most people look for a solution that one of my management texts called 'satisficing': rather than keep looking for the best solution, they stop when they get to one that is good enough. When I was in IT training, I would often lean over someone's shoulder and say 'why don't you do it this way?' - some people would then change their practices but many wouldn't - it was easier to keep doing whatever it was the way they were used to. The challenge for us as designers/builders is to build sites for the way people really use the internet, not the way we wish they did! At the same time I'd like to think we take every opportunity to educate them - to let them know that there are easier/better/more efficient ways of doing things. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Lecoat Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 8:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate? On 16 May 2008, at 06:50, Matthew Pennell wrote: In my experience, a large proportion of computer/web users struggle to understand online concepts that we expert users take for granted. Many regular surfers have no idea how to interact with a scroll bar - and there are lots of people who don't know how the address bar of their browser works! Matthew, my experience tallies with yours. At least half of the people I work with (I mean clients, not co-workers) are not very IT-savvy at all. It brings to mind the Blackadder line: I am one of these people who are quite happy to wear cotton, but have no idea how it works. In some extreme cases this seems to extend to an almost willful ignorance, as if they feel that learning how to operate their computer would somehow diminish them. It is certainly true that the older the client the more likely this seems to be -- although I would certainly not generalise too much as I know plenty of completely computer- literate 'silver surfers'. I find it frustrating when they stubbornly refuse to learn what the most basic controls are on their browser, but unless it has a negative impact on the project I generally ignore it. In any case the evidence would suggest that it is a generational thing, and that should come as no surprise. As someone born at the back end of the 60s, I can understand it, because I personally find the more leading edge web technologies hard to keep up with - much more so than, say, people 15 years my junior who live and breathe that stuff. It's a matter of degree, I guess. People absorb information at a fundamental level early in their lives, and I think that beyond a certain age they stop absorbing it quite so easily and have to work at *learning* it. That includes information about current technology. If a new technology comes out when you're in your 40s it's probably going to be harder for you to pick it up than for your 16 year old nephew. The old chestnut about adults having to get their kids to programme the VCR for them are clichés, sure, but based on a lot of truth. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Images
Personally I would place the border in the CSS (although unless the image is a link, it's surely unncessary), but the height and width in the HTML. My reasoning is that these will (or at least may) vary for each image, and I can't see the benefit of giving every image its own id just so that you can move the dimensions into a style sheet. If the images are all the same size, then maybe. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Likely, James A. Sent: Friday, 9 May 2008 7:22 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Images I have a quick question and would like your thoughts. I am working with a team of coders that code images like: img src=/images/18-digestive-diseases-2col.jpg alt=Digestive Diseases border=0 height=150 width=388 / My question is, do you need the border, height, and width or should that be done in the style sheet or is it needed? img src=/images/18-digestive-diseases-2col.jpg alt=Digestive Diseases / Thoughts? Thanks James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Hi all I've yet to see a full flash website I liked - too often they use small fonts and poor contrast; navigation is quite often difficult. I understand that accessibility has been improved, but haven't really explored it (and of course just because the tools are now available doesn't mean that developers necessarily use them, any more than they do in HTML). It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: Tuesday, 6 May 2008 6:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites Hi, A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash. Maybe this site helps a little bit: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html Or: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/ Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Standard for committing changes to a database?
Hi Jessica As a user, I am really annoyed by applications that don't work consistently - they're much harder to learn (at work I have to use one that labels the same tool a 'Power search' in one place and an 'Advanced search' in another). I would prefer to see a 'save changes' button (or similar) as the consistent approach - it provides an opportunity to review before you save something awful. Elizabeth Web editor www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jessica Enders Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 11:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Standard for committing changes to a database? Hi everyone I am currently reviewing a desktop application that involves mostly viewing and changing records in a database (via a nice GUI front end). In some places, changes are committed as soon as you enter them, a bit like how Microsoft Access operates. In other places, the user has to specifically save to commit changes, like MYOB. Any opinions on when one approach should be used over the other and whether the inconsistency matters? Thanks in anticipation, Jessica Enders Director Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Review Accessability Of My Site
Hi Marvin Just a quick check: - With images off, the contrast between text and background is very low. - Text on a patterned background is relatively difficult to read - not specifically for blind/vision-impaired. - In IE6, large text overlaps - line height is insufficient as you have set the font size as a percentage and the line heigth in pts. - blockquote should be reserved for block quotations. Elizabeth www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Monday, 7 April 2008 12:58 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Review Accessability Of My Site -- Check out my home page at http://startrekcafe.stevesdomain.net/ Check out my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ Hi. could some one take a look at my site and give me feedback, if you can read the text, blind and vision impaired users, if they can read the text, etc. and what other accessability features, i may need to put in, or general comments or feedback. cheers Marvin. -- Check out my home page at http://startrekcafe.stevesdomain.net/ Check out my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Hanging indents
Hi all I'm developing a site for a non-profit organisation and one page is their constitution. I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging indent as they currently do in the word version: http://www.dra.org.au/files/QTI5QDJCKU/DRA-Constitution-Amended-10Feb07%20(6 7%20KB).doc. I thought I'd achieved it using a float - see www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution_float.html - then looked at it in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out. I then tried a different approach using white-space: pre; www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution.html. I don't like this as it relies on multiple spaces and I suspect that it will stop lining up as soon as fonts other than the default are used. Suggestions anyone? (Note that I can't change the numbering scheme.) Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
[WSG] Experience with Adobe Contribute
Hi all I'm working to replace a horribly non-compliant website with a standards-compliant one for a non-profit organisation. The people who currently manage the site are a bit worried about moving away from their current host (who insists on the horrible template) because they find their current updating procedure convenient (it doesn't require any coding knowledge). I understand that Contribute would allow them to make changes to content without messing with the coding/navigation. Does anyone have experience with this product? Is it possible/easy to set up to maintain standards-compliance? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation
Hi Dwain See Joe Clark's book, Building accessible websites - online at http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dwain Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2008 4:33 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] long description and its implementation i have looked at the html 4.01 specs and i did not see any examples of how to implement the longdesc element. i am working on long descriptions on separate pages for each work of art on my web site. i am planning on placing a D link next to the text title of the work on the main category page. could someone point me in the direction to any other references as to the proper implementation of the longdesc element? maybe someone would provide a standards compliant example? tia, dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Hi Christian Whether or not the 'Something' should be a heading depends on the content and function of the list. Quite often, the text preceding a list is a lead-in sentence e.g. While on leave I will: - make curtains - get daughter organised for school - relax (hah!). I would mark the lead-in as a para rather than a heading, the rest as items in an unordered list. Elizabeth www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass Sent: Friday, 25 January 2008 3:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] A Question of Semantics Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
My thought exactly. If you were an architect, would you ask a shopping centre client: do you want wheelchair access? Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Pack Sent: Monday, 8 October 2007 3:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility McLaughlin, Gail G wrote: We always ask the client if they require that the site comply with accessibility. The response ranges from What is accessibility? to we'll worry about that later to No! Why bother asking? You don't need you clients' permission to build a site properly. Geoff. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
The argument that providing reasonable access for blind/vision-impaired visitors/customers implies an equal need to provide translations into every language on the planet is a straw man. Last time I looked, the inability to speak English was not a disability (in any legal sense) although it's certainly a disadvantage in Australia! I don't know of anywhere that requires businesses to provide services in anything other than the official language/s of the country. Target apparently provided discounts that were available only online. They built their site in a way which made those discounts inaccessible to blind people and refused to change the site when the problem was politely pointed out to them. An equivalent bricks-and-mortar equivalent would perhaps be to offer discount vouchers that were not available to people in wheelchairs. If you could rely on businesses to act in a non-discriminatory way because otherwise a group of their potential customers would shop elsewhere, anti-discrimination legislation would not be necessary. And no-one would ever miss out on a job for which they were the best-qualified applicant merely because of their gender/ ethnic background/ sexuality etc etc etc. Elizabeth www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
