Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I strongly recommend you disable this feature of windows on any systems you set up for the less computer literate because I can tell you form experience with novice users that its a very bad feature. David Dorward wrote: On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. Nancy Gill wrote: I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
What about abbr title=Required*/abbr? tee wrote: I have this question about strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field in the web form and like to hear your opinion. I came to the conclusion after conducting my little user testing - it first started with an intention of spam and error monitoring over the form script I use, I then learned that despite the indication that asterisk is marked as required field, many people who took time to submit the forms on clients' sites still missed the *. Because I use no JS validation for the form, I decided to bold the required field using strong element for two new sites. It seems working as the bold texts caught people attention and I received no errors email notification on missing to enter requried fields. The result also gave me a though on how screen readers treat the strong element and that it's indeed more accessible and semantically correct. Working on a site, and thanks to Matt Fellows and his futher assistance, I implemented his JS form validation script to the web form. Using asterik to indicate the required field no longer is an issue with JS validation, however I decided to stick with the strong element. Much work had put into it to modify the code and css, but client came back to me to want the '*' over the strong because it's a conventional practice. Really want to stick with the strong element for the reason above, however I am also doubting my conclusion that it's more accessible for screen readers as I never tested on one. Before I try to convince client the strong element is better approach, I would love to hear your opinion. Thank you! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] floats not wrapping
Taco Fleur wrote: Hello, does anyone know how I can stop floats from wrapping (not sure if thats the right word for it). Best way to explain it is by going to the following page and resize the browser to something smaller than 800px http://www.clickfind.com.au/advertise-online.cfm Once you do that, the right side float starts to go below the first float, which is really not what I want to happen, the browser should just show the horizontal scrollbar when the browser is resized. Would adding a whitespace:nowrap somewhere do the trick? And if so, what kind of support does that have? Maybe I should lay the page out differently? Thanks in advance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** You'll need to use floats to create columns or make the bot on the left absolutely positioned and the bores on the right simply pushed into a column with padding. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
If you have two paragraphs you might want to reconsider the use of a list. Jermayn Parker wrote: What if you need to have 'two' paragraphs? would it not make more sense than to style a br??? On Feb 11, 2008 12:06 PM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You don't need the p inside the li (although it's ok to put on in there it's not required). It's fine to just style the li. So unless you have a specific need for the extra tag I'd leave it out. cheers, Ben On 11/02/2008, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I've been wondering about this for a while, just hesitated to ask (as it could be a stupid question). I've always been using p within olli (example, see state list on www.web-designers-australia.com) However, I see many people use a list without p tags, and style the text within the list item by creating a duplicate style of the paragraph tag. Just wondering, what is the way to go? Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
I think he is simply saying style the li element... I might point out also that it does go against the doctrine of standards, if you will ;), to use superfluous markup. Taco Fleur wrote: Not sure if I fully understand, I think you mean; Assign the paragraph style to a HTML tag that is surrounding all other tags? If so, I would not feel comfortable with that. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 2:02 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] use of p in li If you apply the style to the container, then you don't need to assign styles individually to different elements (except where you want them to be different). On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:52 +1000, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tim, What I mean by duplicate style is that if I assigned color: red, font-size: 0.8em to the p tag, I will have to assign the same style to my li tags to make sure they look the same. OK, general consensus so far is, it's ok to put it in, but preferred to leave them out and style the li tag separately. Thanks Kind regards, Taco Fleur _ clickfindT 1300 859 179 www.clickfind.com.au http://www.clickfind.com.au/ the new Australian search engine for businesses, products and services . _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim MacKay Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 1:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] use of p in li Hi Taco, In the case of the example you provided I'd say definitely no need for the nested p tag. The li tags are enough to describe the content inside them - they are items in a list. I don't see how it is a duplicate style of the p tag either, in my experience it is good practice to style your lists differently than your paragraphs. Hope this helps, Best Regards, Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
John Faulds wrote: If you have two paragraphs you might want to reconsider the use of a list. I don't agree. Consider as an example a 'list' of services - it may take more than one paragraph to adequately describe each service, but it is still a list. in such a situation i would consider paragraphs and headings or a definition list.or placing a fuller description elsewhere (anchor or separate page) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
In this particular instance I would say your approach is wrong because the p servers no purpose. The text is simply a link, if it were actually a paragraph of text then there might be a call for it, however even then I'm not certain. So in this case though its definitely superfluous, IMHO. Taco Fleur wrote: Hi, OK, but a paragraph is a paragraph, right? So why not mark it up as one (even if it's only one)? I think from the responses it appears that there is no wrong or right, just a personal preference ;-) In my example (http://www.web-designers-australia.com/) the states are probably not a paragraph, I just hate styling them again ;-) Definition of paragraph: A paragraph is a section in a piece of writing, usually highlighting a particular point or topic. It always begins on a new line and usually with indentation, and it consists of at least one sentence. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 1:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] use of p in li I'd say the only time you need to use paragraphs inside list items is when a list item's content is made up of more than one paragraph. On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:13:54 +1000, Tim MacKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Why code and no web pag
Probs shouldn't keep this alive but I'll just quickly point out to Christian that the file path may be absolute to the file system, i.e. c:/mywebsite/crf_header.php is acceptable. Including with a url will be supported on some servers also but of course you'll probably not get what you were expecting if you try it on a local php script as it will actually open an http connection to the server and give you the script's output. Christian Snodgrass wrote: This isn't really the place to discuss this as it has nothing to do with web standards, but it is because you can't have an include using an absolute path, they must all be relative. http://www.example.com/page.php is absolute. /page.php is relative. Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote: Solved the problem. However, why does; include ../crf_header.php; Will work and; include http://www.choroideremia.org/crf_header.php; Will not? Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http:ééwww.infoforce-services.com It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. George Washington *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images versus image
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 23 Jan 2008, at 17:29, Christian Snodgrass wrote: [quote] Although, in your specific case, I would go with what Dave Woods said. If you really want those image check boxes, use normal check boxes, and then use Javascript to swap those out for your image ones. With that solution, if they don't have Javascript, normal check boxes appear (which are easy for screen readers and the like), and if you do have Javascript, you get your cute image check boxes. And, I'd say use normal images for those as well and use alt text like checked, unchecked, disabled, however, that wouldn't work well with a screen reader. [/quote] Even the JS approach would potentially be an issue for screen reader users. When a screen reader is used for filling in a form, it switches from its usual reading mode into forms mode, which allows the user to interact with the form. If, however, your JavaScript has removed the form elements, there is then nothing to interact with - it can't tell that the images are supposed to be like the clicky widgets it understands. So you would definitely need to look into using some kind of offscreen positioning technique, rather than just replacing the checkboxes with images, so that users of such assistive technologies would be able to use the page. HTH, Nick. It would be quite simple to simply place the images visually over the checkboxes. Not sure how you would deal with tabbing however I'm sure that you could make something decent. Maybe ad an on focus event to the checkbox that would change the image to indicate focus. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Where did I come from?
Martin Heiden wrote: Simon, on Friday, January 18, 2008 at 15:24 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: I am on a webpage...how do I know what page the browser was previously showing. I think Javascript History object is the ticket...but STRICT mode in Firefox seems to tell me that I don't have permission to access it. NOTE: I don't want to use the History object to go back or forward...I just want to know what the previous page was...so I can create a button to go back to it... You can't! There are some properties that hold the value you are looking for, but these aren't reliable: 1. javascript:history.back() - only works if JS is turned on. 2. HTTP-Header Referrer - may be supressed by proxies/firewalls or the user You can access it via (PHP|Java|ASP|...) or by JS document.referrer Any ideas on how easy it would be for a user to dissable such a feature of their firewall software, I'm guessing it would be a hidden feature usually. Garrr, unnecessary protection that will cause more problems to outweigh the protection it offers IMHO. regards Martin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
Wow who decided it was a good idea to have screen readers support javascript and not title attributes! You could make make the image point to an html file with the same filename and folder as the image then the javascript could replace with .htm with .jpg. Matthew Pennell wrote: On Dec 3, 2007 7:48 AM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I have used them the caption has always come form the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible? Accessible to whom? Some points to bear in mind: 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default. 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen when they click the lightbox link. 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. Your solution is good inasmuch as it doesn't rely 100% on JavaScript, but there are still many accessibility issues to consider. - Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
I have made such radio inputs highlight the selected item to make it even more clear what the user has selected. Thats the radio and label obviously, not just the radio. Of course that is only possible via javascript however it still seems worthwhile. Steve Green wrote: You're right, and this is a problem we always have. Users develop different ways of approaching forms, and some will jump in and out of forms mode to make sure they read anything that is not in a label e.g. validation rules. However, in the example given, I think the legend is way too long and will deter the user from filling in the form at all. Without user testing you can't be certain what people will do, but my experience suggests that users will work out that they need to go in and out of forms mode, and that it is not unduly onerous to do so. As long as the structure is consistent they will be able to navigate quickly. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 04 December 2007 00:00 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms Steve Green wrote: The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. However, if the user is in JAWS' forms mode, are headers/paragraphs not ignored (say as they're tabbing from input to input)? Sorry, been a while since I actually sat in front of a proper JAWS installation... P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
I would firstly consider what the content that your client wants to be able to update himself actually is. If its highly complicated then you might want to try to convince your client that it is not a good idea to update it themselves. That said I try to convince all clients regardless of job not to update themselves. Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
This makes me think does anyone know of a really good comparison table, I have seen some that just have a few technical features listed but they actually are fairly useless for most concerns. Michael Horowitz wrote: What is it you like best about texpattern. I've done one Mambo site and really wasn't happy at all with they system once I learned it. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
Generally the caption comes from the title attribute and the lightbox is launched from a link pointing to the resource that it will display. Matheus Neves wrote: Hi all, I see everybody using lightbox as a good solution for photo galeries, i´d like to know if anyone now anything about it´s SEO friendliness and if it´s also following acessibility guidelines. thanks Matheus Neves *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
When I have used them the caption has always come form the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible? Matthew Pennell wrote: On Dec 3, 2007 4:00 AM, Matheus Neves [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see everybody using lightbox as a good solution for photo galeries, i´d like to know if anyone now anything about it´s SEO friendliness and if it´s also following acessibility guidelines. There are no issues from an SEO point-of-view, but lightboxes are not great for accessibility - I've not done any testing, but I'd imagine that both screenreaders and screen magnifiers would not cope well with them. Remember that, although lightbox is JavaScript powered, most AT is capable of running JS. - Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE 6 7 Text disappearing.
I have this maddening IE 6 7 text disappearing problem. In IE6 you can highlight the text, so its in the right place, its just disappearing. Something to do with has layout I'm guessing, but I'm not sure. I'm sure someone here will have a common fix remembered. Thanks very much in advance, this is driving me mad. Linky: http://dev.meridiancm.com.au/ Cheers, Steve. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 6 7 Text disappearing.
Dusan, Wow, thanks so much. Can't believe that I couldn't work this out! I have dealt with it a few times in the past, but for some reason I was just going down the wrong path this evening. Well I guess I better fix the rest of the IE bugs now... :( Cheers, Steve. Dusan Smolnikar wrote: I usually fix this by specifying position:relative to the element with invisible text, or it's parent. Not sure why it happens in the first place though.. On Nov 26, 2007 12:24 PM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have this maddening IE 6 7 text disappearing problem. In IE6 you can highlight the text, so its in the right place, its just disappearing. Something to do with has layout I'm guessing, but I'm not sure. I'm sure someone here will have a common fix remembered. Thanks very much in advance, this is driving me mad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
With the sliding doors style if your boxes have standard content such as a header followed by a paragraph then you can avoid adding any additional markup too. James Jeffery wrote: What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and which methods are the most supported? I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if you use PNG's. Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them perfect, was just IE 6. Lets have your beloved methods then guys. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
That reminds me you can see what I was playing around with a couple of years ago on my cruddy broken web site. http://jixor.com/Stuff/Web/Panes James Jeffery wrote: What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and which methods are the most supported? I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if you use PNG's. Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them perfect, was just IE 6. Lets have your beloved methods then guys. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
Mike check out the example I posted earlier and you can see how it can be done without all the extra markup. Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: I can offer this simple method: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_smart_corners.php I prefer spans over divs because divs do have semantic value as divisions whereas span are like puffs of air in that they serve as nothing more than a hook for styles, etc. I'd rather offer a span to accept the background than a full div. That's my take on it anyway. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
No worries, I use threaded view in my mail client so its easy for me to backtrack. http://jixor.com/Stuff/Web/Panes Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Mike check out the example I posted earlier and you can see how it can be done without all the extra markup. I need a link please. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?
Adding your css directory to your robots.txt would certainly be an assurance, unless search engines started to attach screencaps to search results. I was going to say it would be a great idea for future proofing however now I'm wondering. John Faulds wrote: This might prove useful - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/guide-to-hidden-text My understanding is that yes, SEs do view some use of CSS dubiously, but it's also been my understanding that it only applies to inline CSS (not external stylesheets) and as an added safety measure, you can always add your CSS directory to your robots.txt. On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:46:07 +1000, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO. Is this true* or did I dream it? *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera for Nintendo Wii and CSS
Seeing as it looks like your developing for the browser without actually having a Wii. I believe the PAL resolution is 480p (720x480). Obviously also just take care not to have anything too fancy as it may be difficult to interact with. Geoff Pack wrote: I've been looking around the Opera site, but can't find answers to the following: Does Opera on the Wii support handlheld and/or projection stylesheets? SVG? Also, is SVG supported on the Nintendo DS browser? Thanks, Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] intranet benchmarking quiz
You're certainly listing a lot of common problems with intranet implementations. The larger the company the more disorganized it often tends to be. This is generally because people in various divisions take it upon themselves to set up their own software with little regard to what has already been implemented and secondly because a lot of systems will still use older software for specific tasks as it would have been judged as not being cost effective to upgrade the legacy systems. You'll notice this a lot in banks that tend to use two or three systems simultaneously, real headache for new employees I'm sure! I know a lot of people in companies are experimenting with wikis, however this is not generally endorsed as official practice. plasmo wrote: Hi, I am currently reviewing an area of an intranet, and getting a lot of anecdotal comments such as all the intranets I've ever seen worked like this. To deal with this somewhat, I am taking a short quiz of people's experiences with their current intranets. If anyone here can help, replies would be most appreciated. Kind regards, Vanessa Toholka QUESTIONS: 1. Does your company have a single overarching intranet, which is the first point that everyone goes to, with sub sections for various groups OR do you have a separate site for each section or group within the company? 2. Is your intranet built on a standard set of templates reflected across divisions, or are your sub sites or various intranets very different? 3. If a new service/resource was being launched in your organisation would the announcement be made via email or via the intranet? 4. Do you utilise any collaboration tools. (discussion boards, wikis, blogs etc?) If so do they enjoy a good level of user activity and participation? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] intranet benchmarking quiz
Hassan Schroeder wrote: plasmo wrote: To deal with this somewhat, I am taking a short quiz of people's experiences with their current intranets. Though I'm a self-employed consultant now, I've been involved with a number of intranets dating back to one of the first (1994) cited here: http://www.useit.com/papers/sunweb/ QUESTIONS: 1. Does your company have a single overarching intranet, which is the first point that everyone goes to, with sub sections for various groups OR do you have a separate site for each section or group within the company? I've never seen anyplace that didn't combine both of these -- there are always organizations that decide they're not satisfied with the official centralized setup, and the barrier to entry is so low. 2. Is your intranet built on a standard set of templates reflected across divisions, or are your sub sites or various intranets very different? Again, every intranet has had a range of consistency. It probably depends on where your corporate culture falls on the spectrum of control vs. freedom; companies here in Silicon Valley tend to be tolerant of experimentation. 3. If a new service/resource was being launched in your organisation would the announcement be made via email or via the intranet? Email, definitely. 4. Do you utilise any collaboration tools. (discussion boards, wikis, blogs etc?) Collaboration tools have not gotten any traction in the companies I've worked with; people collaborate via email (or phone, or just walking over to talk to someone). I suspect part of the problem is cultural (send me mail is just an automatic response to conclude a conversation, email's push information model suits the reactive interrupt-driven mode most people work in) and part is technological: current collaboration tools lack hooks into desktop address books, calendars, etc. From what I have heard wikis generally fall down as they will be initially maintained by whoever set them up in the first place and over time they will become outdated and generally are underused. This is just the story that I have heard a few times from different organizations. I have never heard of a successful wiki in the corporate environment. And of course there's I'm too busy to learn anything new to deal with -- understandably difficult to combat when the problem that these new tools are solving isn't apparent to the user. :-) FWIW! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Equal Height Columns/OTL background images
I have used a technique where the side column sits inside the main column. The main column's background will then form the background for either column and therefore even if the sides column is longer than the main content the background will not be broken and vice versa. Joshua Street wrote: Hi all, I've got this design that requires equal height columns *and* background images positioned at the bottom of each column. I'm using the One True Layout Equal Height Columns technique, but can't for the life of me figure out how to prevent a bottom-aligned background image from disappearing into the 30thousand pixel padding void the technique depends upon. The heights are fluid, the widths is fixed. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Any help appreciated! Josh *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?
Yes I'm sure too that would be the norm. Jermayn Parker wrote: I am personally both!! I do not think many people stay in the one field and most 'swing' between corporate and government/ school etc On 9/12/07, * John Horner* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've noticed that a lot of articles about web design seem to assume that the web developer/designer is working in the commercial sector, and often it's assumed that we're freelance too. As an example, we'll often see arguments on here based on the target audience meaning e.g. that you're designing a website designed to sell a product -- your product is nappies, therefore your audience is parents with babies. Public websites often have a target audience of everyone. Lots of web content gets made, as Richard Stallman said about software, just because it needs to be made: shrink-wrapped, boxed commercial software is the tip of the iceberg compared to all the apps and drivers and utilities and tools in the world which are created without any thought of profit, simply because they're needed. So I wonder, how many people on this list are in the commercial sector and how many are in the non-profit / public / government / education sector? == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.germworks.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] lack of 'lang' attribute fails WAI
I did read about this somewhere, I thought the guidelines touched upon it. Patrick Lauke wrote: Tee G. Peng I am working on a bilingual site (chinese/english) that needs to pass at least WCAG AA, the site is UTF-8 charset and I didn't use lang attribute in the meta because it's a bilingual site. [...] What do you propose I should do to make the 'failure' goes away? Is every page on your site in both chinese and english, all in one page? If so, as long as you're marking up the changes when you move from the chinese to the english section of your page, I'd say you can pick one or the other as the nominal language for the whole page. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up
Wouldn't all those heading sizes would look fairly similar, especially 102%?
Dean Edridge wrote:
Assuming that viewers of your site have not changed the settings on
their software to suit their eyesight or their general preferences is
wrong.
By giving users: body{font-size:100%;} you are doing the best you can
at your end, and It's up to them to ensure they have correctly
configured their browser to suit their eyesight or preferences.
I have my laptop set at 1024x768.
With Firefox I have the font size set at 16px.
That means that when I view a web page, I am saying to firefox: Show
me this web page, and show the main text at 16 pixels and scale the
other text (h1, h2, h3, h4) around this base font-size setting.
Setting this in your css sheet:
body{font-size:100%;}
h1 {font-size: 145%;}
h2 {font-size: 132%;}
h3 {font-size: 125%;}
h4 {font-size: 115%;}
h5 {font-size: 102%;}
h6 {font-size: 100%;}
p, ul, ol, blockquote, pre {font-size:100%;}
ensures that this is possible.
note: I think the code suggested was originally from: Gunlaug Sørtun
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up
I would strongly recommend against ever using large fonts unless
required for a vision impairment. Even on a laptop with higher dpi than
a desktop monitor.
Just because you may have a higher resolution applications generally
don't scale in that manor. Some applications will even refuse to start
unless you change back to small fonts. Also of course if you have a
higher resolution you also have a larger screen so the dpi will be quite
similar to a smaller screen (on desktops).
Dean Edridge wrote:
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Wouldn't all those heading sizes would look fairly similar,
especially 102%?
Dean Edridge wrote:
Assuming that viewers of your site have not changed the settings on
their software to suit their eyesight or their general preferences
is wrong.
By giving users: body{font-size:100%;} you are doing the best you
can at your end, and It's up to them to ensure they have correctly
configured their browser to suit their eyesight or preferences.
I have my laptop set at 1024x768.
With Firefox I have the font size set at 16px.
That means that when I view a web page, I am saying to firefox:
Show me this web page, and show the main text at 16 pixels and
scale the other text (h1, h2, h3, h4) around this base font-size
setting.
Setting this in your css sheet:
body{font-size:100%;}
h1 {font-size: 145%;}
h2 {font-size: 132%;}
h3 {font-size: 125%;}
h4 {font-size: 115%;}
h5 {font-size: 108%;}
h6 {font-size: 100%;}
p, ul, ol, blockquote, pre {font-size:100%;}
ensures that this is possible.
note: I think the code suggested was originally from: Gunlaug
Sørtun http://www.gunlaug.no
The heading sizes aren't that important, you can change these to what
ever you like (I just changed the h5 to 108%). They were put there as
an example. It's the main font-size (body{font-size:100%;}) that is
important.
On my wide screen desktop monitor (1440pixels x 900pixels) I have the
default font-size in firefox set to 18pixels. Having this set ensures
that all well designed sites scale well and look great on my large
screen.
// Here's where I get a bit off topic and start talking about the
liquid web in general.
If anyone's using a large monitor (by my definition larger than
1024x768) you should never change the resolution of the screen down to
suit badly designed websites or other poorly thought out software.
Instead, change the settings of your OS to suit the screen size. If
you are using XP, do this: Right click on the desktop click -
appearance - Font-size and select large Fonts - click apply.
This does not change the font-size for all programs though, you will
have to change these individually.
And if you come across sites that are only 760pixels wide and only
take up half the screen. That's not your problem, they are poorly
designed sites.
All website designs should fit in to one of the following categories:
Liquid-layout
Fluid-layout
Vector-layout
It's not impossible, just look at Trademe [1] biggest site in New
Zealand and no horizontal scrollbars till under 800x600 resolution
And there's simple liquid layouts such as the php.net site [2] and
w3.org [3]
[1] http://www.trademe.co.nz/
[2] http://www.php.net/
[3] http://www.w3.org/
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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up
Sorry, the point I'm making is why use 100 and 102, is there any visible difference? I would have thought the user would need to have a massive default font size to see any. However I have noticed myself that the way the browsers tend to size fonts can be quite strange. Sometimes a change of 5% in scaling can result in the same font ending up the same size however notably wider. Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Wouldn't all those heading sizes would look fairly similar, especially 102%? Indeed, but those are the sizes I found suitable for my own site, and I have only *suggested* (over at css-d) those values for use on other sites - as part of a method for inheriting font-sizes down the entire chain of containers in a web page. Designers should of course choose the values that suits their particular designs, and that was made clear in the thread that suggestion is copied from. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover
I would create a css solution, with some unobtrusive javascript to enhance the functionality (such as to make it follow the mouse, animate in/out, etc.) Even then if the user has IE5 with JS turned off clicking the image could always take them to an enlarged view. I would make a link positioned relative and then place a span or something in the link that will have position absolute and display none, then on a:hover it could have display block. So you would have a basic enlargement, from there you could use js to replace your basic css driven enlargement with something a little more fancy. Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A client would like functionality similar to that used on istockphoto.com - i.e. that a 'popup' window is displayed with a larger image and some text when the user hovers over a thumbnail image. e.g. Can I do this with CSS in a standards-compliant and works cross-browser way? Any pointers or references to example code gratefully received. Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE, alpha transparency and sliding doors...
Could you use solid background gif and then the opacity filter in your IE6 style sheet? I'm not sure if you can make the child of a translucent parent opaque though. Nick Cowie wrote: Caitlin It should be possible, depends on how much time you are willing to invest. I have always had problems applying AlphaImageloader to background images. So I don't even try. I would build the site so it worked in all modern browser. The using conditional comments apply a special CSS for IE 5.5 6 that replaces the transparent background .png files with transparent background .gif and use the Gradient Filter http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532997.aspx AlphaImageLoader Filter where necessary. You can see the basic idea in the CSS here http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/worklife/overview.html http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/worklife/overview.html (it is now an ugly invalid site now, but three years ago when I last touched it it was clean and valid). If you change your font size, it is an elastic site, the background image still appears through the semi-transparent menu background. In IE (including 7 I built this 3 years ago) the background is a gif and AlphaImageloader is used on the menu div to make the whole div semi-transparent. In all other modern browsers because the background is a semi-transparent png Using that technique with both AlphaImageloader and Gradient filter should get you the results you need Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Usability Accessibility Over Design?
If it has poor usability its actually bad design, because design isn't just visual style. If visual style wins out over usability then its ALWAYS BAD DESIGN. There is no way around it... Unless this is some highly specialized site like a quirky flash game or something else that we are not concerned with here. If you can't work usability into the visual style that you have in mind then you need to step back and re-think the way you work. Accessibility shares many aspects with usability because not all accessibility concerns regard markup and features for highly impaired users. However generally for most accessibility guidelines following them will improve usability for your average user too. James Jeffery wrote: Good Evening. Does Or Should Design Out-Weight Usability and/or Accessibility? Ive been faced with a number of situations during development on a number of projects that has forced me make a choice you have all probably had to make Usability/Accessibility over design. I know Usability and Accessibility are very different subjects, but they are both just as important. The users experience should be a good one, its sort of like a shop keeper or store manager, he has to make sure both non-disabled and disabled shoppers are happy when shopping, otherwise they wont come back. The shop keeper also would have to try to make a disabled persons shopping trip a good one, because after all, disabled shoppers deserve the same access as non-disabled shoppers. Bringing it back to web development, personally i think that a disabled user deserves to browse the internet with the same level of support and access as non disabled users. And back to the question, should design come before Usability/Accessibility? Sometimes you can do both, such as Image Replacement, or you can offer visually impaired users a version of your site with high contrasting colors. But there are times when designers and developers do things either without thinking about disabled users or thinking 'Stuff them, i want my hi-end graphical interface on my site' or 'Stuff them, i have no time to make it accessible' or even 'Stuff them, the fonts need to me tiny so my design looks good'. There are many more possibilities for a developer/design to not bother or not choose accessibility first. My take on all this is basically, if you have to make a choice and there is no way around it, think about your users first, not yourself and what you want, because you are not the one using the site. There is often times when things are just not possible, people insist on hacking around it, which often causes more problems and needs more hacks. But if something cant be done, leave it out, and wait. In the past, with CSS1 a lot of things were not possible, which later became possible with newer versions. Web Standards, Accessibility and Usability needs to be put right at the top of the list, way before design. Focus on the users and the people, and it will help to create and bring the internet up to a better standard. Im not sure if there is a law in every country regarding Accessibility but there needs to be one. This is just my take on things, but i would love to know what everyone else thinks. I'm in the middle of writing an article for a magazine, some views from both ends of the scale would be great. Its an important topic i feel. Thanks Guys. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Jermayn, Use a content-disposition header to force a download so that the user doesn't have to have their browser potentially crippled by Acrobat and its easy to save for later viewing. Content-disposition: attachment; filename=document.pdf Jermayn Parker wrote: pdfs are not going to go away (and docs are not the answer) in Nielsons article (who is over rated and take his opinion with a grain of salt) he says pdfs are for print and I agree but for most Government websites they need these pdfs that we all hate and as I said in an earlier email html versions is not always an option. So the question remains how do we make a linked pdf presented and operational the best?? [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20/07/2007 10:08:52 am On 2007/07/19 11:23 (GMT+1000) Webb, KerryA apparently typed: Jermayn wrote: I work at one of the those government places that has those horrible pdfs scattered through out all their horrible pages. I couldnt agree more. And I work with people who build such sites, and I don't have a problem with PDFs per se. As a rule, I do. Most are apparently made by and for the people who design inaccessible mousetype web sites, not for normal or low vision web users. If that's an efficient and effective way to publish a document, let them Efficient and effective only from a publisher's perspective, not from a user's perspective. Pdfs are for printing. Ecologically aware people are not interested in killing trees just to get a little freely available information. do it - providing the PDF is properly marked up. It's rare that pdfs are published to be univerally accessible, so the end result is that as a group, pdfs are a scourge. Nielsen is too polite about it: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fieldset background
I haven't fully gone through this article but just having a quick look it seems like it might help you out. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/fancy-form-design-css Dean Matthews wrote: Making my first attempt at non-table form styling with CSS and using Cameron Adams horiz template with clearing divs. Putting a background color and image into the fieldset is working OK in Win Firefox and Mac Safari, Opera, OmniWeb but extends beyond the top of the border in Win IE6 to the top of the legend text. Any way to get IE6 to play nice with the background? Also, the whole layout falls apart in Mac Firefox if anyone cares to comment. http://www.stthomasaquinasacademy.org/employment.mgi http://www.stthomasaquinasacademy.org/css/forms.css Thanks for any help, Dean ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing Accessible Applications With Flash, Asp and visual Basic
You would be better off to use html and javascript with some flash for your a/v components. Marvin Hunkin wrote: Hi. now just wondering, can i develop flash web applications, using jaws, and say using a programming interface say like microsoft visual studio, asp, or the flash development kit, and like say developing web applications, with a flash interface, and say doing animations, lines, arrows, buttons, and a flash movie, inserting, audio and video. how accessible with jaws? if you could let me, know, send asap. cheers Marvin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ABC News Online have a new website
Gav... wrote: quote who=John Horner I think the inclusion of the postcodes in the tags is a little clunky, and not very intuitive. I've had no direct involvement with the makeover, but I happen to know the reasoning behind the postcodes. There are a number of different towns and cities with the same name all over Australia. Springfield for instance -- two in NSW, two in Victoria, two in Queensland and one each in SA, WA and Tasmania. I tried my Postcode of 6036 - not recognised, I then tried 4 others in surrounding Northern Suburbs, all of them were resolved to be Perth even though I am a good 40 minutes from CBD. Needs improvement in that area, maybe its not finished. Gav... The Aus Post site has an up to date list of postcodes-suburbs that includes all codes and the suburb as the post office sees it. http://www1.auspost.com.au/postcodes/index.asp?sub=2 I'm sure this is what the ABC would have used but for anyone else, its a great resource. Pity it doesn't have Geo co-ords. :( == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ABC News Online have a new website
Gav... wrote: quote who=John Horner I think the inclusion of the postcodes in the tags is a little clunky, and not very intuitive. I've had no direct involvement with the makeover, but I happen to know the reasoning behind the postcodes. There are a number of different towns and cities with the same name all over Australia. Springfield for instance -- two in NSW, two in Victoria, two in Queensland and one each in SA, WA and Tasmania. I tried my Postcode of 6036 - not recognised, I then tried 4 others in surrounding Northern Suburbs, all of them were resolved to be Perth even though I am a good 40 minutes from CBD. Needs improvement in that area, maybe its not finished. Gav... Sorry in my other response I was also going to say that 6036 is in the auspost list as JINDALEE. Additionally you can't extract suburb from postcode because some postcodes span multiple suburbs. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 body length problem
I have been using the background on html for some time on various sites
because of this problem. I don't know if standards allows it but it
works in all browsers.
Kane Tapping wrote:
Hi ,
I found my IE7 will show the bug on its first load, but any refresh
afterwards will load with the body/colour covering the entire window.
(covering the window with another window will also remove the
whitespace.)
A quick check with the IE7 developer toolbar shows the body
stretching only as far as the content.
If would suggest setting a background colour for the html.
btw the toolbar declares body hasLayout = -1
Kind Regards,
Kane Tapping
Web Standards Developer
Web and Content Management Services
Griffith University. 4111. Australia._
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone: +61 (0)7 373 57630
On 5/9/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On my site, http://christianmontoya.net/
the body does not extend past the content in IE 7 on initial page
load, so the background doesn't reach the bottom of the screen. I know
there's a simple fix for this, but I can't remember it... can someone
help me out? Thanks in advance.
Hi Christian,
I don't see this behavior in ie7 WinXP Pro
But I think you should be able to fix what you describe by giving
layout to
some element in there.
Did you try: body {zoom:1}
Couldn't see this issue on my IE7 too (are you using a beta?). Thierry
is right, the element needs to be given layout.
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
enjoy...
Karl
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Re: [WSG] IE 7 body length problem
Apply the background to the html element. Not sure if this fits in with standards but it works. Christian Montoya wrote: Hello list, On my site, http://christianmontoya.net/ the body does not extend past the content in IE 7 on initial page load, so the background doesn't reach the bottom of the screen. I know there's a simple fix for this, but I can't remember it... can someone help me out? Thanks in advance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] best standard / format for imbeded mp3 player in browser
Yes, IMHO the best thing to do is to provide both a direct link to the file and a flash player that is customized to your site's design. James Ellis wrote: Hi Ben a href=/path/to/file.mp3file.mp3 [50 Kb]/a works well and allows people to play the file in the player of their choice (maybe they even have their browser set up to do this if they want). They can also download it for later playing. If you want to play it inside a browser then I'm sure there is a flash component that will play mp3's with play and pause buttons? HTH James On 4/12/07, * Benedict Wyss* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, just wondering which (free) mp3 player works best cross browsers with minimal code etc etc All opinions and suggestions welcome. Thanks, Ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)
The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature. Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to design for accessibility, don't pretend to. Stuart On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote: Hi all Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the alt attribute or label. I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue? input name=q id=queryText value= type=text / input type=image src=abcd id=search_submit name=search_submit alt=Submit search query / Regards Bojana Lalic Web Developer education.au Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road Dulwich, SA 5065 p +61 8 8334 3223 f + 61 8 8334 3211 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w http://www.educationau.edu.au Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon of the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy Wales is coming to Australia! For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging _ IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)
I would refer to that as usability. Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, Since the ability to click on the label (or field) to put focus on the field is an accessibility feature of forms, I don't really understand your point. Stuart On Thu, April 12, 2007 9:40 am, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature. Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to design for accessibility, don't pretend to. Stuart On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote: Hi all Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the alt attribute or label. I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue? input name=q id=queryText value= type=text / input type=image src=abcd id=search_submit name=search_submit alt=Submit search query / Regards Bojana Lalic Web Developer education.au Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road Dulwich, SA 5065 p +61 8 8334 3223 f + 61 8 8334 3211 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w http://www.educationau.edu.au Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon of the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy Wales is coming to Australia! For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging _ IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Nick, Data-centric applications also usually allow you to use the arrow keys to navigate around a form, this behavior could fairly easily be replicated with a bit of careful planning. I don't think that Access forms support that but it would be a nice exchange, loose the enter in exchange for arrows. Cheers, Steve. Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the feedback so far. The general consensus certainly seems to be that use of the Enter key is not a good idea, and I totally accept the reasons put forward. Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. I probably should have made all this clearer in my original post. Would the group consider the request more reasonable in these circumstances - perhaps if it is made clear that this is non-standard behaviour that should only be introduced on the non-public areas, or are there still strong reasons for avoiding? If so, then I'm quite happy to tell the client. Nick Chris Williams wrote: How about the fact that many data entry programs use enter to move between fields? It is actually quite common in very heavy data-centric applications. *From: *Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Subject: *Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Just a note that most users don't know that you can use enter to submit. Brian Duchek wrote: You're gonna shoot yourself in the foot if you go one step further without diving as deep as possible into answering the question why does he want this? If you're making something that looks like a web form on a web page to be accessed by web users, then it's pretty clearly folley - a short test with some users will bear this out. Do it in front of your insistent client and he'll have a hard time disagreeing with you. If you're making something that looks like a tax-form wizard on an interactive/business application that just happens to be delivered via a browser and is targeted at people with 30 years of data-entry experience, then the same test will reveal that having their form submit when they hit enter (instead of moving between data fields) will be a terrible usability burden. Know thy user as thy self =) Either way you'll have a difficult time overiding the default behavior of a browser, so you better count on needing javascript enabled (and a healthy testing budget) to develop this behavior. When you get down to it, it's not that hard to implement with some keypress listeners. The idea about a confirmation dialog (while not-efficient) seemed a good one, when used as part of a smooth degredation scheme. /bd On 2/27/07, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick I have to agree with Darren and Barney, it is an astoundingly anti-user proposal, as you present it. But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
I believe this question would fall within the scope of this group. Anyway I would be very interested to know the answer to this, with a link to the related legislation. Giles Clark wrote: Paul, I think you are way off topic here. If you want to contact me directly I'd be happy to help [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Paul Collins *Sent:* 30 January 2006 15:33 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law) Hello all I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG - untick this box if you don't want to receive emails would be illegal for a UK site. Could anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong and if possible give me some credible links to back this up? Thanks heaps, Paul Collins ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Bert Doorn wrote:
Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning
standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting
the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc
with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design
standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still
stay within web standards?
Idealistic, but I'd suggest client education. Offer to take them
through the absolute basics, emphasising the advantages of *not* doing
things like setting fonts etc. Create a simple cheat sheet for them,
outlining the process of updating pages (in their specific
application), dos and don'ts, etc. As a good customer relations
exercise, follow up after a month or so to see how they're doing, if
they need any tuition or help, etc. Maybe you'll even get some repeat
business, or a small trickle of we made an update, but something went
wrong...can you have a look?
Again...idealistic. But I've managed to get this through on a variety
of projects, and seems to work quite nicely in most cases.
I have had a good amount of success with a cheat-sheet style approach.
just outlining basic things that they might want to do. Of course this
goes also with my CMS that helps out a bit. I don't see why you couldn't
make a simple one file admin for just editing pages online. So long as
page content is dynamically included. If you use separate files and have
something like include('header.htm'); nav, footer, etc on each page then
you have the problem that they may delete or misplace these elements.
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[WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Hi, I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. Cheers, ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. What I found most interesting is the fact that there is a lot of XUL markup which is squarely presentational in nature. After a long time striving for semantic XHTML markup with separate presentation in CSS, it feels like a huge step backwards being expected to mix it around like it's 1996 again. I try to make a point of personal discipline to apply the same strict sense of separation of content and presentation in my XUL, as if it was any other standards-based web site. However, I fear this topic is beyond the scope of the web standards list (as it's, of course, not a W3C standard), so I think I'll leave it at that now... Yep, that has been my main problem with it also. However I don't consider it as much of an issue as for html design. The XUL is for describing the application interface not styling it. Of course due to shortcomings of its css implementation there seems to be many things that you can only do by applying properties to the tags themselves. That said its not like they can't just add properties to the css standard. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Nick Lo wrote: Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? There is a well known article (that I cannot remember the URL for) that discusses the fairly accepted standards for a site like; Home, Contact Us, About Us, News, etc. So I was curious how people here apply those kind of standards to their site structure and also what they feel about doing them for the sake of usability, etc. Thanks, Nick These are more conventions than standards. It's good to follow if possible, but not necessary. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Is there anything wrong with using css and adding a js to 'enable' :hover for everything in ie? Golding, Antony wrote: Hello all, We have been operating a drop down menu system on http://www.salford.gov.uk for around a year now and in that time, the menu has changed from a pure JavaScript version to the more accessible and semantic UDM4 (http://www.udm4.com). As a local government site, we get tested for accessibility regularly, both internally and by external parties, together with our own tests. Our CMS is still in the dark ages as regards web standards and producing accessible code, but I've managed to get much of the site valid as possible (Google currently indexes 33,700 pages, minus .pdf and .doc files). However one of the more recent external tests indicated that the drop down menu was failing the site due to the way the menu appears if JavaScript is disabled. ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Drop down menu, JavaScript accessibility
Yeah this is what I would do. Just make sure that the site is also
navigable via the top level navigation. Or make different styles for ie
with no js enabled.
Mike Pepper wrote:
Nope, nothing at all. Just bung it in an IE conditional clause calling a
stylesheet containing an HTC behaviour call.
Like : !--[if IE]link rel=stylesheet href=css/cw_ie.css
type=text/css media=all /![endif]--
with cs_ie.css containing whatever:
#menubar li {
behavior: url(css/iehover.htc);
}
and the HTC file:
attach event=onmouseover handler=mouseover /
attach event=onmouseout handler=mouseout /
script type=text/javascript
function mouseover() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'block';
}
}
}
function mouseout() {
for( var x = 0; element.childNodes[x]; x++ ){
if(element.childNodes[x].tagName == 'UL') {
element.childNodes[x].style.display = 'none';
}
}
}
/script
HTH,
Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.visidigm.com
Administrator
Guild of Accessible Web Designers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gawds.org
Jixor wrote:
Is there anything wrong with using css and adding a js to 'enable'
:hover for everything in ie?
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Re: [WSG] Horizontal list width
Williams, Cara wrote: ... Is it possible to make it liquid (span the width of the browser window or container)? At the moment it seems the browser displays each li at the same width of the largest li. ... Try using % widths for the li. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your opinions about my weblog's new layout
Bruno Torres wrote: I am designing a new layout to my weblog and I'd like you people to tell me your opinion about it. The layout is on http://www.brunotorres.net/trial/index.php All critics and opinions are welcome. People using mac please, check it for me (iCapture is not working so I have nowhere to test on mac browsers). Cheers! I think that I actually prefer the old layout, however the new one is good too. Main complaint with the new one is the google ads column. Its a lot of space for little content. Maybe you could also have some photography in the header, I like the image used on the previous layout. Now mark up is whats important on wsg. Your content type should be application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 I would add a description meta too. Not sure that you really need the fieldset in the email and search forms. Otherwise it all seems good. Didn't see any obvious errors. Later, ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zero margin - just sharing
Jacobus van Niekerk wrote:
Hi all,
I know a lot of people use this:
* {
margin:0;
padding:0;
}
To help reduce code and eliminate lots of those strange default margins
issues.
Don't think this has been mentioned anywhere yet, but one issue I found with
this, was that within dropdowns the downarrow GUI, covers some of the text
on the right. Here is the fix for that:
option {
padding-right:1em;
}
Maybe just stick to:
html, body {
margin:0px;
padding0px;
}
Then make sure to state margins for h# and such. This is the best option
IMHO.
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Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry
Mani Sheriar wrote: Thanks, Charles! Just to put in my two cents about the wasted space issue In general, I actually prefer fixed layouts to fluid. I have a wide monitor and when divs take up all the available space on it they are often unwieldy to read, not to mention less attractive. I have 21 1600x1200 - full width certainly can be too wide to read, especially if the text is small. However fluid 75% I think is good. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE5.01 Troubles
Tom Livingston wrote: Hello all, On this page: http://66.155.251.20/picotte.com/about/ my layout is bustin' out in IE5.01. Can anyone spot why? 5.5 and 6 are good. Thanks for any help. Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Looks to be the width of the left or right section. Check the differances between the widths, for rightside there is 322 and 327, is that correct? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry
Mani Sheriar wrote: Hi All, I have made another CSS Zen Garden design ... after doing my first one I just couldn't help myself - I was bit by the bug! (By the way, the second time around was sooo much easier!) Anyway, I was wondering if any of you might care to check it out and offer me any feedback on the design, especially if there are any problems on certain browsers. (But nice feedback about how much you like it and how well it works is always welcomed too.) ;~) Take a gander at it here: http://www.manisheriar.com/zengarden2/ Thanks a bunch! Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | http://www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741 One suggestion would be to add space around the bottom of the main container to match the space at the top. Maybe even add another flower background image to the bottom or bottom corner? But these are just style suggestions, nothing technically (css/browser) wrong with the current design (that I can see). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry
Charles Martin wrote: Beautiful concept... I just would like to see the main column expand to the width of the available space... Have to do a lot of scrolling to reach the bottom... but just beautiful. Just to have a bit of a go at most Zen designs, maybe. It just wouldn't look as nice if it was wider, its a standard characteristic of the zen designs that they are very narrow. However I think in the case of the garden that is fine because its about showing off css, not usability. Zen is this rare case where the goal is to make it as pretty as possible with regard for usability fairly optional (I mean obviously you couldn't take it to the extreme. I just mean little things, like width, colour combinations, etc.) No offense intended. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with border
Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote: Hello, I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo. My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the longest column (the center column). You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css Thanks for the help! :) Give both the left a right border and the center a left border, when put a left margin -1 on the center so they overlap. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with border
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote: Hello, I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo. My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the longest column (the center column). You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css Thanks for the help! :) Give both the left a right border and the center a left border, when put a left margin -1 on the center so they overlap. Sorry, you must think I am drunk or something. If the center is always going to be longer than the left put the border on the center. Otherwise, if the left may be longer than the center, put a border on both and make them overlap by positioning one over the other by 1px, either by position or margin -1px. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Negative Margins
Jolorence Santos wrote: Bruce, Using negative margin is quite mouthful, it may display fine in latest browsers which supports web standards but if you consider to target some of those primitive browsers, I think you should be carefeul using it. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Yeah it is important that if the browsers dont support negative margins that the site still works. So only use them for effects that will degrade to what is a reasonable degree for the specific site your working on. As of course for all advanced css features. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
Steven Clark wrote: I think you may have the wrong end of the stick on what the initial post was about. Someone wanted to point out that a site was badly made and another suggested the sending of this document. All I am suggesting is that in that circumstance it is neither professional nor in the best interest of one's cause to be abusive. The posting it was raised in was called: Re: [WSG] What can you say to a site like this? It wasn't a document I wandered across and just thought yuk, obviously. Enough said. Steven Clark Norty Pig Web Development http://www.nortypig.com http://www.blog.nortypig.com _ Click here for the latest chart ringtones: http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** So you are the one in error. In the future if you are going to start a debate type topic make sure to make your point clear. Seeing as you have created it make sure to read through all the responses and consider what people have said. Debates on etiquette are probably not particularly relevant anyway, I would advise against starting such topics. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Negative Margins
Bruce wrote: I have used negative margins at various times, but I have a question I would like to throw out there. I work a lot reconfiguring Movable Type, and there can be a series of articles down a page. On my main page, I have a border around each one, but the positioning I used to have content first in the template after the heading meant that I had to set a top margin of 100px. Problem was, that carried through all the posts making them 100px apart...as the template rewrites each article from the same code, and is way too much space. I set the bottom margin to -80px to remove the space. Looks good in Firefox and Internet explorer6, and I am sure it is fine. It is just that setting margins to -80 seems kinda hacking CSS...maybe not in a good way? What do you think? Site is xhtml1.0 Transitional Bruce Prochnau, www.bkdesign.ca I wouldn't call it hacking, however I try to avoid negative margins as much as possible. That said, do make use of the possibility because sometimes they can do great things in the way of effects that are otherwise difficult and/or messy to achieve. It can even negate the use of hacks in some situations. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
Steven Clark wrote: I've been reading my digests after a small holiday and I came across this link posted a few days ago for moronic designers to be sent. Is this really a good idea? http://members.optusnet.com.au/~night.owl/morons.html I mean I'm pro web standards etc and in all honestly I'd read the first bit and see idiot and moron and it'd hit the bin, so the writer even lost me. Effective design principles would dictate that the whole point of the page is to get the information to the target audience, but really does it? Its offensively written, rude, long and even a bit angry As far as the standards movement goes I actually think that such offensive behaviour would have to be more detrimental to the cause than good, closing minds and eyes to reason with an abusive introduction. Honestly if someone sent you a link saying you're a moron would you think its more valid than any other spam? I only mention it because it was posted with next to no comment and its really an important issue. If we want to be seen as professionals then a certain level of professionalism should apply, I'm sure that being inclusive, educational and helpful would be more to the spirit of a universal web than throwing stones. But that's only my opinion I suppose, and no more valid than that beyond the link. Food for thought. Steven Clark Norty Pig Web Development http://www.nortypig.com http://www.blog.nortypig.com _ SEEK: Now with over 60,000 dream jobs! Click here: http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** If that is how the author wanted to write the document they have a right to do so. Its not like its automatically endorsed by the WSG or as it it sets some kind of precedent. I feel that its fairly obvious that the document is intended to capture peoples interest by being entertaining, while you may not find it funny i am surprised that you did not see this intent. In some ways while I don't think its the best read it is a refreshing change. A lot of web design publications have become fairly stale in an attempt to perhaps over professionalize them. Etc, Im sure you get the idea. Anyway thats just how I feel about this. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Changing Standard
berry wrote: Why using p /p as p is a kind of span with margin. The definitions are heading towards making the markup more descriptive of its content. SPAN is just a general purpose inline wrapper. Where as P actually describes a paragraph of text. There is probally information that will help you to better understand contained within the specifications on the web consortium site. Cheers, Stephen I ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] designing for the cell phone and PDA
You also have to live in a magic world where they use the correct style sheet, although mobile devices are better on this front than they were. Ted Drake wrote: Is there anyone out there that has had some success building a style sheet to make their web site look good on a pocket pc or cell phone? I'd like to add this feature to our site but I haven't had much luck. Are there any successes or failures out there? Thanks Ted Drake Web Content Editor CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)
Maybe add a slight outline/glow/etc effect to the menu items as they don't stand out too well, especially when hovering. Also find a way of reducing image size that doesn't result in noticeable grain. Later Seona Bellamy wrote: Hi guys, Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at this page and tell me if it's working right? My friend has looked at it on her Mac and reported a few problems, but since her computer's been playing up lately I want to check that there is actually a problem and not just her system being weird. If you do see anything odd or not working, can you please have a peep at the code and let me know what's causing it? Any PC users who want to look and give opinions would also be appreciated. :) The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/ CSS: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/main_styles.css and http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/classes.css Cheers, Seona. __ ella for Spam Control has removed Spam messages and set aside Later for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! http://www.ellaforspam.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Siter Review Please
This is however the WSG mail list so you should comment on the coding. Peter Blakey wrote: Jason, It looks O.K. The navigation presents no major drama. No, I am not sure why you've designed the site, other than self promotion, but is that an issue. I can't and won't comment on the coding - on the basis that the av erage punter doesn't care, so lojng as they don't get lost. Peter Blakey Project Officer (On-Line Learning) Australian Catholic University Limited ABN 15 050 192 660 CRICOS: 4G, 00112C, 00873F, 00885B 1100 Nudgee Road Banyo Queensland 4014 Telephone: (07) 3623 7421 Facsimile : (07) 3623 7397 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BEING PRESENT "I am therefore you are In the present Of the present we are." - GURANU ANJALI Rtu: Meditation Poems (Amityville, N.Y.: Vajra Printing and Publishing, abridged ed 1995) p.97. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Discussion Threading
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
I of course already use it I just didn't know it had this feature, slightly annoying. Thanks! Jeffery Fernandez wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . Thunderbird/Mozilla cheers, Jeffery http://melbourne.ug.php.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
