[WSG] domain help
Hi all a new customer was having problems with their domain not displaying with their current host www.pipetechnorthwest.com all I can find out is that its linked to www.dallamore.com WHOIS information for pipetechnorthwest.com : [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] [Redirected to whois.enom.com] [Querying whois.enom.com] [whois.enom.com] =-=-=-= Visit AboutUs.org for more information about pipetechnorthwest.com Domain name: pipetechnorthwest.com Administrative Contact: Dallamore Graphics Web Design Roger wallace (roger.wall...@dallamore.com) +44.8003345075 Fax: Lochside Place South Gyle Edinburgh, SCOTLAND EH12 9RG GB Technical Contact: Dallamore Graphics Web Design Roger wallace (roger.wall...@dallamore.com) +44.8003345075 Fax: Lochside Place South Gyle Edinburgh, SCOTLAND EH12 9RG GB Registrant Contact: Dallamore Graphics Web Design Roger wallace () Fax: Lochside Place South Gyle Edinburgh, SCOTLAND EH12 9RG GB Status: Locked Name Servers: ns1.wallace-industries.com ns2.wallace-industries.com Creation date: 15 Jan 2010 16:35:01 Expiration date: 15 Jan 2012 16:35:00 and lots of unhappy people. Kind regards Ryan David Barlow http://www.rdb-uk.co/ www.RDB-uk.com RDB-uk Complete IT Solutions Description: rdb logos Telephone: 0844 357 8518 Mobile:07816247774 Registered Address: 10A Belmont Bleach works, Egerton Road, Belmont, Bolton, BL7 8BN, United Kingdom. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail or its attachment(s) This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended for the use of the individual or company to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Whilst every effort is taken to ensure that emails are free from viruses, no liability can be accepted for any damage arising from using this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***image003.png
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply Re: WSG Digest
I am currently out of the office until Monday the 31st of January. For any urgent issues please contact my Team Leader Luis Landaverde or alternatively I will respond to your emal on my return. -- *Ryan Blunden* Web Specialists Tech Lead *Mavericks Online - Web Solutions* Flight Centre Limited 545 Queen St, Level 4, Brisbane QLD 4000 *Follow Flight Centre on Twitter* http://bit.ly/dr6uf4 - *Become a Fan of Flight Centre on Facebook http://bit.ly/aQDzMF* *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Flight Centre looking for talented front end developers to start immediately
Hi everyone, Flight Centre are currently seeking full-time front end developers to start immediately. This is an excellent opportunity for the right applicants to get experience in a global ecommerce environment and enterprise content management systems. Salary will be negotiated based on skills and experience and you must be able to work full-time at our Brisbane head office. Flight Centre is a global company that encompasses many other travel brands (Escape Travel, Travel Associates, Cruiseabout and others) and we are in the process of rolling out our new travel product architecture across our national and international sites. There will be a mix of both maintenance work for existing sites and project work building new sites. We’re after people who have: - At least 3 years commercial web development experience, - solid JavaScript skills (design patterns, Crockford, the good parts etc), - experience with jQuery and jQuery UI, - a passion for front end development best practices (web standards, progressive enhancement, accessibility), - a great attitude, and enjoy working in an open plan team environment, - a desire to see continuous innovation and improvement in the work they do. Experience with functional testing platforms, unit testing and other JavaScript frameworks (e.g. ExtJS) would be an advantage. We have a great and talented bunch of web developers and the working environment at Flight Centre really is fantastic! If you want to find out more or would like to submit your resume for consideration, please email me at ryan.blun...@flightcentre.com.au. Ensure your resume highlights your front end development experience (e.g. JavaScript you have written) and has a list of sites you’ve worked on recently. Hope you all have a great festive season! Cheers, Ryan -- *Ryan Blunden* Web Specialists Tech Lead *Mavericks Online - Web Solutions* Flight Centre Limited 545 Queen St, Level 4, Brisbane QLD 4000 *Follow Flight Centre on Twitter* http://bit.ly/dr6uf4 - *Become a Fan of Flight Centre on Facebook http://bit.ly/aQDzMF* *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply Re: WSG Digest
I am currently out of the office until 9 November 2010. For any issues please call me on 0413 214 666, alternatively I will respond to your emal on my return. Thanks Luis Landaverde -- *Ryan Blunden* Web Specialists Tech Lead *Mavericks Online - Web Solutions* Flight Centre Limited 545 Queen St, Level 4, Brisbane QLD 4000 *Follow Flight Centre on Twitter* http://bit.ly/dr6uf4 - *Become a Fan of Flight Centre on Facebook http://bit.ly/aQDzMF* *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Css attributes
Tim,
:not() is a CSS3 pseudo-class, IE8 doesn't support any CSS3 pseudo-classes.
However you could use http://selectivizr.com/ to add that support using
javascript.
Cheers,
Ryan
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Tim Baillie tim.bail...@acu.edu.auwrote:
Hi
I’m trying to build some attribute selectors in CSS to check for missing
content. Ie.
IMG[alt=]
{
border-width: 3px;
border-color: #ff;
border-style: solid;
}
// will place a red border around any image with an empty ALT tag
IMG:not([alt])
{
border-width: 3px;
border-color: #ff;
border-style: dotted;
}
// will place a red border around any image with no ALT tag
The problem is the second one (not) only works with Firefox and Chrome. It
won’t work in IE8
Does anyone have a suggestion?
Thanks
Tim
*
---
*
*Tim Baillie *| Quality Assurance Coordinator, ACUonline | *Australian
Catholic University
*Email tim.bail...@acu.edu.au | Phone +61 2 9739 *2287* | Facsimile +61 2
9460 *4380
North Sydney Campus (MacKillop)*
Office 4, Level 1, 23 Berry Street
North Sydney NSW 2060 Australia
PO Box 968 | North Sydney | NSW 2059
* *
*CRICOS Reg. 4G, 00112C, 00873F, 00885B*
Blackboard Support Phone *1800 759 660 *(Ask for ACU Blackboard support)
Email blackboard.supp...@acu.edu.au
If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in thought or deed,
I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is
only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm.
- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus
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Re: [WSG] Mobile Phone Emulators
I've been using a free trial on perfectomobile.com which gives you remote access to real devices, basically has a webcam setup on the screen. Register through this linkhttp://www.perfectomobile.com/portal/cms/opera.xhtml?key=OP631R89YL2and it'll give you 7 hour trial instead of the usual 1. -Ryan On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Cole Kuryakin c...@koisis.com wrote: Hello All - I've been tasked with setting up a few form pages to be viewed on mobile phone devices. Currently I'm using Adobe's Device Central - which is okay but it really doesn't show how the forms (particulary select lists) will be shown on various mobile devices. I've also tried the online Opera emulator which seems to work pretty well, but what about Nokia, Motorola, Samsung, Apple, etc., etc. I've read on-line that for Nokia and Apple you've really gotta download their SDK in order to accuratly test webpages - true? Would greatly appreciate any advice from those of this group who develop mobile viewable pages (particulary forms) on where to test your efforts for the best compliant and visual result across the largest number of mobile devices possible. Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Flight Centre looking for web developers
Hi everyone, Flight Centre are currently seeking full-time contract junior to mid-level front end developers to start immediately. This is an excellent opportunity for the right applicants to get experience in a global ecommerce environment and enterprise content management systems. Contract rate will be negotiated based on skills and experience. Flight Centre is a global company that encompasses many other travel brands (Escape Travel, Travel Associates, Cruiseabout and others) and we are in the process of rolling out our new travel product architecture across our national and international sites. There will be a mix of both maintenance work for existing sites and project work building new sites. Also, these contract positions may well turn into permanent roles in the future. We're after people who have: * At least 2-3 years commercial web development experience, * experience with jQuery and jQuery UI, * a passion for front end development best practices (web standards, progressive enhancement, accessibility), * a great attitude, and enjoy working in an open plan team environment, * a desire to see continuous innovation and improvement in the work they do. Solid JavaScript skills will definitely come in handy and will be highly regarded. We have a great team and the working environment at Flight Centre really is fantastic. If you want to find out more or would like to submit your resume for consideration, please email me at ryan.blun...@flightcentre.com.au. Ensure your resume highlights your front end development experience (e.g. JavaScript you have written) and has a list of sites you've worked on recently. Cheers, Ryan Ryan Blunden | Web Developer Web Solutions | Flight Centre Technology - IT SM Team No: +617 3170 7050 Level 4 - 545 Queen Street | Brisbane Qld 4000 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Rob Crowther robe...@boogdesign.com wrote: You can split resources across multiple manifest files, though, as far as I can tell, the you only get one manifest per page. Yeah that is a good point. Although doing so would require the person to visit each page which has it's own manifest before it will be cached. Have you ever tried caching pages which themselves have manifests? If you're referring to the page which references the manifest. The page which calls the manifest is automatically included in the cache. -Ryan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question
I've played around with the appCache quite a bit and it certainly has its limitations. If you make an update to the manifest file it will re-download every asset listed in the manifest. The limit, although it isn't documented anywhere, is 5mb for iPhone and 10mb for iPad. It's really only designed for assets that will rarely change. I wrote an article way back you might be interested in - http://www.thecssninja.com/javascript/how-to-create-offline-webapps-on-the-iphone -Ryan On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:58 AM, Rob Crowther robe...@boogdesign.comwrote: Hi Andrew Andrew Harris wrote: Is the offline storage tool in HTML5 designed for this sort of heavy lifting? are there storage limitations? on an iPad? Can you confirm, are you referring to Web Storage[1] or Offline Resources[2]? Web Storage is really just cookies on steroids and probably isn't what you're after to store large amounts of binary data. Offline Resources may be up to it, it's not clear to me what the limits are and I can't find any definitive documentation anywhere, but it's a whole different approach[3]. Rob [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/ [2] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#offline [3] http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/iphone/conceptual/safarijsdatabaseguide/OfflineApplicationCache/OfflineApplicationCache.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Background music on web pages
You may want to take a look at the WCAG guidelineshttp://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audioabout audio playing on a website, says there should be an easy mechanism to stop/pause the audio if it runs longer than 3 seconds. --Ryan On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Oliver Boermans boerm...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lesley, On 1 March 2010 00:55, Lesley Lutomski ubu...@webaflame.co.uk wrote: Thanks to all who have replied. The clients in question are a committee (first problem!), who all say Oh, I know nothing about computers/the internet but at the same time refuse to be guided. Referring them to usability articles is a non-starter, because they'll just not look at them. I've tried reducing the arguments to very basic, non-technical issues, but my powers of persuasion are apparently lacking. Maybe they need a real world example. Next meeting you have with the committee, before they arrive, hide a couple of portable stereos in your reception. Have them playing 'pleasant' music, simultaneously. Let them wait a little while before you bring them into the meeting room where you have more music playing – don’t switch it off before they ask you to :-) Given that I can't afford to turn down the work, I'll take on board the points folk have made here and promise to do the least-awful job on it I can! Make the point that you are in the business of building websites which leave a positive impression on the visitors and it would be negligent on your part; to not point out the cons of music on a page. Where the music is not the primary subject of the content anyway. Failing that…I have not tried it - but something like this appears to provide the control you would want to STOP the music: http://www.happyworm.com/jquery/jplayer/ Perhaps if you added a mouseenter/focus event to a large portion of the page which would switch it off. Once you know the visitor has had enough of the 'ambience' of the site and is ready to learn more… Good luck! Ollie @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: International SMS Provider
You might want to check out beamme http://www.beamme.info/ might be what your looking for and they offer global delivery options. -Ryan On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Cp Master thecpmas...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm looking for an international sms provider (paid, not free). I need to send sms messages from my PHP application to users cellphones, using PHP or any other server-side language. I have experience sending sms from my apps within my country, but here the users going to be from all over the world. So I need it to be international. Thanks, Asaf. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page
Looks good in IE 6 IE 7 also. Ryan Crocker Training Support Specialist Volvo Penta of the Americas, Inc. Chesapeake, VA, USA Phone: 1-757-436-2800 x7733 Fax: 1-757-436-5182 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page safari 3 on 10.4.11 is ok though... matches what I see in firefox On Nov 20, 2007, at 13:27, Andrew Maben wrote: There was a note on Macintouch about this page: http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/renew/renew_833.html Safari 2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.10 shows a blank page, but viewing page source is quite interesting - anyone care to comment? Andrew http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/ net [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Web Design Test - IE Users
Looks great Joe. I took a glance in IE6 and there dosent seem to be any layout issues that I can see. Ryan Crocker Training Support Specialist Volvo Penta of the Americas, Inc. Chesapeake, VA, USA Phone: 1-757-436-2800 x7733 Fax: 1-757-436-5182 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Taylor Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:02 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Web Design Test - IE Users Hey everyone! I wanted some of you windows users to test out this site if you'd be so kind on your IE browsers. http://steveframe.sitesbyjoe.com Please let me know if there are any layout issues you encounter (float drops etc) Some pages won't validate because I'm scraping the table-laden content from the parent company's awful, though I try to clean them up somewhat (sales and rental search). I noticed a couple heading issues on my old win2k server, but it has an odd resolution and things look as horrible as they possibly could... Thanks in advance! Joseph R. B. Taylor - Sites by Joe, LLC Keep it Clean, Simple Elegant (609) 335-3076 http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Markup an Address?
Looking for best practice markup for addresses. is it correct to use dl dtMain Office/dt dd123 Fake Street/dd ddSomewhere, SomeCountry, SomeZip/dd /dl or is there a better practice for this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS Problem in Mozilla and IE6
In your CSS
change to this:
#nav ul {
margin: 0px 35px 0 35px;
padding: 5px 0 0 0;
text-align: center;
}
this works in FF 2 but note it has not been tested in IE.
RM
On 8/10/07, Joyce Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Here is the link to a website, and I've only gotten this far:
http://www.nichemktghouston.com/mneiman/physician.html
So far, It looks proper in IE7, but in Mozilla, the horizontal navigation
links do not center but rather move to the right so that I don't see the
full Contact link.
In IE 6, the pageHeader div is not stacked directly above the nav div.
There is some additional white space (from the background color).
Could anyone please help. I seem to do fine with CSS when the navigation
is vertical in a column, but I always run into problems when the navigation
is horizontal.
Thank you,
Joyce
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Re: [WSG] CSS Problem in Mozilla and IE6
Hi Joyce,
While this may/may not help resolve your issue, i recommend adding this to
the beginning of your stylesheet.
* {
padding:0;
margin:0;
}
it will set the default margins and padding for all elements to 0. You
would then have to specify margins and paddings for all elements, it gives
you more control over the layout as some browsers are known to have
different default margins and paddings for elements.
RM
On 8/10/07, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Joyce Evans wrote:
http://www.nichemktghouston.com/mneiman/physician.html
So far, It looks proper in IE7, but in Mozilla, the horizontal
navigation links do not center but rather move to the right so that I
don't see the full Contact link.
Add...
ul {padding: 0;}
...to zero out Gecko's defaults on that list.
Nothing prevents that menu from getting skewed from font resizing though.
In IE 6, the pageHeader div is not stacked directly above the nav
div. There is some additional white space (from the background
color).
Add...
#pageHeader img {display: block;}
...to override the 'display: inline' default for that image.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
Ya, it's colliding with another script i have but i'll figure it out. Thanks Again. On 8/3/07, Robert O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: page cannot be displayed...??? On 8/2/07, *Robert O'Rourke* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://webrocket.ulmb.com/ability/ http://webrocket.ulmb.com/ability/ Strange, works for me... The alistapart article someone sent you looks like a good solution. Same thing I guess but it won't conflict with scriptaculous (I assume because the article is from 2001). Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script that users can use to dynamically change text sizes on the fly. Our text size is already quite legible and sized in em's for easy resizing, but i've been told by the powers that be that we also need a style sheet switcher. Anyone know where i can find a nice script for this? RM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
page cannot be displayed...??? On 8/2/07, Robert O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script that users can use to dynamically change text sizes on the fly. Our text size is already quite legible and sized in em's for easy resizing, but i've been told by the powers that be that we also need a style sheet switcher. Anyone know where i can find a nice script for this? RM You don't necessarily need a style sheet switcher for that. If its the global font-size you're changing just some javascript to edit the css property and a cookie to store the user preference as they navigate between pages would be sufficient. I'm in the jquery camp when it comes to creating simple js effects like this. Are you comfortable with writing javascript at all? If not there's a a plugin I saw a while ago that might be of interest. http://webrocket.ulmb.com/ability/ Ironically though the page has a js popup ad the first time you go to it... the plugin seems to be alright though. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
Thanks Mike, These are nice solutions but unfortunately i'm limited to what i can do on the server level as we have a site that is built into a large CMS as we are a medical facility. So i'm stuck with only solutions at the client side of things for now. RM On 8/2/07, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script that users can use to dynamically change text sizes on the fly. Hello Ryan, One might argue that offering a style changer solely to increase font size is something to reconsider, and I would agree, but then again, there's no real harm in doing this. Here are two PHP scripts that you are welcome to use. 1) PHP Font Sizer: This lightweight script is a straight-up font sizer offer the user 4 values (default settings are 100%, 120%, 140%, 160%). This script requires the user accepts cookies and it doesn't check for this unlike the next option. This script was made in July of 2006 and could probably be tweaked, but that's always the case. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_font_sizer.php 2) PHP Style Changer: This smart script first tests to see if the user accepts cookies. If they do accept cookies then the script user interface (simple text link) will be available to them. If they don't allow cookies they can get a message saying a script is available to them if they decide to change that settings, or, better yet, just don't offer the feature they can't use. Just make sure the text size is adequate upon landing. This script is optimized for two style sheets, but it can be extended with a little effort. This script was made in Sept of 2006 and could probably be tweaked, but that's always the case. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_style_changer.php The advantage to these is that they are both server-side scripts so they don't require that the user have JavaScript enabled in addition to cookies. Hope this is useful to you. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
Thanks Amit, I really enjoyed your websites accessibility and the various options available. Your code works nicely, but unfortunately is causing an issue with some other JS we have that i'm trying to debug. We have a menu built on the script.aculuo.us framework which is quite accessible, but when i add your code it starts off with all of my menu items fully expanded. I'll have to figure out a work around for this. Has to be something related to the onload functionality of the script you have that's colliding with the existing JS. I'll have to mediate and make sure they play together nicely. Thanks Again. On 8/2/07, World S. Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ryan, We use this script on our website to do the same. Look at the code for the path and you can easily nick it. Right now, it works using javascript but you can do the same using php or asp by changing the style sheets dynamically. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Amit Bhaskar Managing Director Webmirer Ltd Unit No 002L iBic, Aston Science Park Holt Court, Jennens Road Birmingham B7-4EJ Telephone: 0121 250 3850, 0121 288 1121 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 07886430883 Website: www.webmirer.co.uk Fulfil your *legal obligations*. Increase you *market share*, increase your *visibility*. Make your *website* *accessible* to all. Company Name: Webmirer Ltd. Limited Company Registered in England and Wales under registered number: 05746719 Registered Address: Faraday Wharf, Aston Science Park, Birmingham, UK B7 4BB Ryan Moore wrote: I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script that users can use to dynamically change text sizes on the fly. Our text size is already quite legible and sized in em's for easy resizing, but i've been told by the powers that be that we also need a style sheet switcher. Anyone know where i can find a nice script for this? RM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] an inline element (inside a block element) sibling ofanother block element
Best way is , put your link within headers, h2 and if you want to get rid of margin in that, do it through CSS. Even if you want to put in the paragraph tag, you can put a custom attribute - p class=sectionheadera href=../news.htmlNews lt;/a/p It's more semantic. Joyce Evans wrote: I just came across some code on a website that I'm maintaining and realized this is what this thread is about. The code I see is: div class=nav_sub_left a href=../news.htmlNews lt;/a pTestimonials lt;/p pa href=links.htmlPartner Links lt;/a/p /div Are you all saying it's not good that the first line in the div tag doesn't have paragraph tags around it? What if the extra space a paragraph tag would give is not wanted? Maybe I didn't study this thread well enough. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of E Michael Brandt Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:38 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] an inline element (inside a block element) sibling ofanother block element we agree. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Steve, The other aspect of XHTML Strict DTD, the client won't even know unless I take my time to explain everything but this target stuff is something they will notice if they ask me to open certain links in new window. That's why I need arguments against this. :) XHTML Strict and 1.1 has no target attribute, I do not know why the HTML 5 is keeping it? Steve Olive wrote: On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The argument must be why you are using the XHTML Strict DTD, not about one small component of XHTML Strict. What is interesting though is that HTML 5 is keeping the target attribute: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid8 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Center Align an Unorder List
Hi there,
ul { display:block; width:100%; text-align:center; list-style:none}
ul li {float:left; margin-right:5px}
These two styles should get you this.
Did I do it correct? Comments?
Ryan Moore wrote:
Looking to Center Text on an unordered list.
Example:
ul
liLink 1/li
liLink 2/li
liLink 3/li
/li
Desired Effect:
Link 1 Link 2 Link 3
I don't have my CSS Code Base with me right now so hopefully someone
can lend a hand.
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[WSG] Center Align an Unorder List
Looking to Center Text on an unordered list. Example: ul liLink 1/li liLink 2/li liLink 3/li /li Desired Effect: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 I don't have my CSS Code Base with me right now so hopefully someone can lend a hand. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Using target=_blank
Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) Hassan Schroeder wrote: Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing, why can't you use them to convince your clients? Just askin' :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Client - Site Edits
dotnetnuke has some nice functionality, but out of the box is an accessibility nightmare. On 7/11/07, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Funny you should send that one Kevin, I am literally just scoping around for a similar solution to the site I have just built. I was recommended these two aparrently free CMS solutions by another client. http://www.dotnetnuke.com/ http://www.cmsmadesimple.org/ I am only just taking a look now so not sure how standards compliant they are. The last site I built used a combination of Contribute and Wordpress, not so pretty and kind of limiting. Depends on what they want to update and the type of content I guess. I would like to hear of any other free open source CMS solutions there are out there? preferably one using PHP, but open to suggestions. Cheers Paul On 10/07/07, Kevin Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find it very disappointing that very few clients really appreciate the amount of hard work that goes into designing and building a site (in my experience). This particular client wants to save a few bucks by maintaining the site herself. She doesn't seem to realize that her time is valuable as well and better used when devoted to her strengths. I think most of us know that we need to call a plumber or electrician as they are experts in their fields, and rightly so. Nuff said... Now that I have a realization that I need to incorporate some sort of a CMS solution, can anyone lead me to resources that may help to teach me the ropes? I am leaning towards PHP, as I am somewhat familiar with the language. Thanks. Regards, Kevin. On 7/10/07, Matthew Ohlman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Ross wrote: Hi all, I am trying to find a solution to a nagging problem. Most of my client's sites are not very dynamic and I update them as the client requires. Because the updates are very infrequent, I have not been charging very much for this ongoing support. However, I have a new client who wants to maintain her own site (one I designed for her). She is pretty good on the computer, but doesn't really know her way around HTML or CSS. I am agonizing over how to pass the torch over to her. The site is not extremely complex, but is more than a little task for someone who does not design web sites. I am wondering for advice on this situation and I am also wondering how others handle ongoing updates after the initial design has been implemented. I am also wondering if a CMS system would, in any way, be a solution to a situation like this. Thanks. Be careful if you don't use a CMS system. I donated a web site for a local organization and it was a beauty...since I no longer had the time to devote to updating I turned it over to a so called 'web designer' in the community (at the recommendation of the executive director). Sadly, he has basically ruined my site because he has no idea what he is doing and has no concept of web standards--or style for that matter. It is a real shame that so many people charge for and design web sites that don't follow any sort of standards. Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessible Drop Down
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ is a drop down list example which can be seen here: http://www.alistapart.com/d/hybrid/hybrid-4.html. I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Ryan Moore *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? On 6/12/07, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Etc Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Thanks For your Input Phil. What annoys me with some of the solutions is trying to understand some of the browser hacks, and isn't it now with many of the browsers improving that hacks are frowned upon? On 6/12/07, Philip Kiff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) wrote: Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Ryan Moore wrote: Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? It depends on how it is done. I would disagree with Lars that it cannot be done, but to do it properly in a way that meets usability and accessibility guidelines requires a great deal of care and attention to detail. I think that the Ultimate Drop Down Menu 4.5 by Brothercake comes about as close as any I've seen to meeting those guidelines (someone else mentioned it last week in response to a similar question about accessible drop-down menus): http://www.udm4.com/ UDM4 normally uses JavaScript, but it is designed so that the it will degrade gracefully and you can set it up so that your menu will work the same way as a CSS-only menu if JavaScript is turned off. It also includes a keyboard module that allows you to configure better keyboard access. UDM4 is copyrighted and there is a licensing fee, but non-profit organizations can obtain a free license. I do not have any relationship, business or personal, with Brothercake/UDM4 other than having used it when working on a non-profit site in the past. Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
Hey Folks, was just looking for an example of a good accessible drop down menu for part of a web application i'm developing. Cheers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
thanks, this is a great solution :) On 6/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Behalf Of Ryan Moore was just looking for an example of a good accessible drop down menu for part of a web application i'm developing. plug src=http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp; / HTH --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] thoughts on the new phpbb layout
Well, they (the phpBB Group) didn't actually re-design the site or the style for phpBB. Tom Beddard of tictoc design does pretty much all their design work. Regards, Ryan Crocker Training Support Specialist Volvo Penta of the Americas, Inc. Fax: 757-436-5182 Phone: 757-436-2800 x7733 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:44 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] thoughts on the new phpbb layout If you guys haven't seen already, phpbb re-did their boards in XHTML strict, table-less design. http://www.phpbb.com/community/ I'm curious mostly to your thoughts on how they did their main forum listing. definition lists inside of unordered lists. code trimed: ul class=topiclist forums li class=row dl class=icon style=background-image: url(./styles/prosilver/imageset/forum_unread.gif); dt a href=./viewforum.php?f=14 class=forumtitleAnnouncements/abr / span style=font-weight: boldRead me first before posting anywhere!/span /dt dd class=topics187 dfnTopics/dfn /dd dd class=posts279 dfnPosts/dfn /dd dd class=lastpost span dfnLast post/dfn by a href=./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileamp;u=11 style=color: #0099CC; class=username-coloureddhn/a a href=./viewtopic.php?f=14amp;p=2896061#p2896061img src=./styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif width=12 height=9 alt=View latest post title=View latest post //a br /on Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:00 pm/span /dd /dl /li /ul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Clearing Floats
i found this link that states that when clearing floats, you should use the overflow technique. http://www.quirksmode.org/css/clearing.html is this the best route to go? I ran into some difficulties with a layout where the border of the box model was collapsing in, and the content was expanded out of the box, and you couldn't see the box's bg colour. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] FireFox eating Div
Hello all, Wondering why firefox likes to exclude my #nav element out of the box model here. The sites CSS can be viewed in the source for readability. http://www.rockitdevelopment.com/test/ It works fine in IE but who cares about that browser. What is the method around this that is best for standards?
RE: [WSG] Hi all, need some help with a peekaboo bug in IE - SOLVED
And of course, you would put any IE specific hacks such as the Holly Hack in
an 'ie-hacks' style sheet that would be included in your pages via IE
conditional comments.
See http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/10/12/480242.aspx for more info.
Ryan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ric Raftis
Sent: Saturday, 31 December 2005 4:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hi all, need some help with a peekaboo bug in IE - SOLVED
G'day Barrie,
I think what you need here is called the Holly Hack. It fixes ul, li
problems that IE mucks up. CSS for my sites where I use uls include:-
/* Fix IE. Hide from IE Mac \*/
* html #navbar ul li { float: left; }
* html #navbar ul li a { height: 1%; }
/* End */
Reference: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?page=2cid=C37E0
Regards,
Ric
Barrie North wrote:
How weird, it was being caused by the styles on the ul in the black
main menu box. I don't know why that would shift the whole column, o well.
Barrie North
Compass Design
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barrie North
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:57 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Hi all, need some help with a peekaboo bug in IE
I am making a site for IE6+ and am really stuck over an IE bug.
http://joomlashack.compassdesigns.net/js_jshack06v2/index1.html
Some strange bug is occurring in IE6, the left column bounces all over.
It seems to be related to the peekaboo bug and you can see it when you
mouse over the links to the left column in the main menu. Refresh the
page in IE so see the bug again.
Also, if you click on the blog link
http://joomlashack.compassdesigns.net/js_jshack06v2/index1.html
you get a two column layout. For some reason the left column decides it
wants to be in a different place.
The solutions I know of involve position:relative and height:1% and
line-height:1.2. I have tried all three of these but not had anything work.
Apologies in advance for not making a page that isolated the bug better.
This is CMS output and I found this bug late in the production cycle...
Cheers
Barrie North
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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I've found this particular topic so interesting, as I've gotten an insight into the different approaches people take towards building standards based designs or should I say, CSS driven designs. As we all know, there is not one perfect, fully robust, all conquering 100% correct way to design any conceivable web interface for a client or user, and I think this is what a few people have alluded to in their posts, albeit they are saying it in different ways. So without a perfect solution being present, you're left to find the best solution you can, under your often unique set of circumstances. I'd like to think everyone on this list understands the holistic nature of designing with web standards, understanding why the effort is worth it, but also realising that the ideals of designing with web standards must always be taken with a good deal of common sense (and humour, cheers Russ). There are so many factors to consider when designing an interface and personally, that's what I love about this work, it's never boring and always challenging. As developers, all we can ever hope for is to do the best job we can with the knowledge we have at the time, delivering the best solution possible for the client and of course, the end user. If everyone who has posted different arguments is doing the best they can, then I say well done and good stuff! Ryan Blunden ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] position fixed on the thead
I came up with a solution for this exact problem a while back and wrote about it here http://www.agavegroup.com/?p=31 It relies on only one extra div, then a className. I often load the table normally, then onLoad, apply the classname to the table which resets it to being scrollable. Hope it helps.On 11/7/05, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This solution is really cool. The programmer is simply putting the thead andtfoot outside a scrolling div with absolute positioning. The tbody is allthat is left in the div and it scrolls. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/nonscroll-table-header2.htmlThanks Scott for finding it.Ted-Original Message-Hi TedIn response to: I'd like to keep the thead fixed and let the remainder of the rows scroll underneath it.I came across thishttp://web.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/nonscroll-table-header2.html while scouring the web for fixed print header/footer solutions. It seems tofit your requirements, though I haven't investigated/played with it myself.RegardsScott Swabey** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- www.agavegroup.com
RE: [WSG] Page Check: www.qm-consulting.co.uk/test/indextest
Hi Richard, Your content is indeed usable, accessible, semantic and valid,but if I was a potential client of yours, I wouldn't be saying, 'Wow, that site looks great, I hope my site will look like that'. I'm not trying to put you down, I'm simply giving you my honestopinion. Now maybe I'm completely out of touch and maybe all our sites should look like Jacob Neilson's but from my experience, sites need to be aesthetically pleasing as well as accessible and CSS and DOM scripting gives us more than enough power to do both. Perhaps you could sit down with a graphic designer to work more visual elements into your site and improve the overall look and feel? I think it would be worthwhile. Also, what is the business case for needing the W3C badges, really? Best Regards, Ryan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of QM Consulting LtdSent: Saturday, 5 November 2005 2:42 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Page Check: www.qm-consulting.co.uk/test/indextest I have been following this list with interest for some time and I am currently working on creating my web site. I've done some testing on IE and Firefox and validated on w3. I would appreciate any feedback, regarding standards, semantics, usability, accessibility etc. The page is at http://www.qm-consulting.co.uk/test/indextest.html Thanks, Richard Morton __ NOD32 1.1275 (20051103) Information __This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System.http://www.nod32.com
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Hey Andy, Nice looking site, simple, clean, well laid out and easy to read, good stuff. That's very odd. Anybody got any idea why the CSS validator should be throwing up an error on: line-height: 1; but is happy with line-height: 1.0; ? Looks like a bug in the validator to me. I'd say so, but wouldn't the error have more to do with the fact that the value of line-height needs a unit of reference (px, % or em)? Best Regards, Ryno -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 6:09 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com Christian Montoya wrote: It gets worse... W3C gave you a CSS ERROR, which means they checked your site just as you were editing, I'm sure... so the name is wrong, the listing is wrong, and now you are disqualified from the featured list. Hate it when that happens! That's very odd. Anybody got any idea why the CSS validator should be throwing up an error on: line-height: 1; but is happy with line-height: 1.0; ? Looks like a bug in the validator to me. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1229 (20050921) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Thanks guys for pointing that out, very useful. Ryno -Original Message- Ryan Blunden wrote: Andy Budd wrote: That's very odd. Anybody got any idea why the CSS validator should be throwing up an error on: line-height: 1; but is happy with line-height: 1.0; Looks like a bug in the validator to me. I'd say so, but wouldn't the error have more to do with the fact that the value of line-height needs a unit of reference (px, % or em)? Actually, using a unit for line-height can get you into trouble: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/line-height.html -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1229 (20050921) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] two column
Hi JoAn, WSG member Andrew Krespanis put together an excellent presentation on a 3-column content source ordered layout at http://www.leftjustified.net/site-in-an-hour/ with the actual site at http://www.leftjustified.net/site-in-an-hour/site/. I realise that you're after a two column layout and that is the beauty of Andrew's design, it couldn't be easier to convert it two a 2 column layout. Here's a quick and dirty guide: - Remove the column #right in the HTML source code (was the right column) - In the default.css style sheet, change the percentage of #sub to 99% to fill the container width (#outer) - In the default.css style sheet, Change the width of #center to fill the width of #sub (the container of the two columns) Presto, a rock solid two column layout. I imagine you'll want to do some tweaking to the above and both the CSS and HTML is well documented in terms of how the design works. Note from Andrew: Get rid of the ie7 script that is included as it has been known to cause IE to crash. It's only there for max. and min width support, which you won't be needing if you're making a fixed width design. Best of luck, Ryan Blunden From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoAn Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2005 10:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] two column Hi! I'm new to the list and to CSS. I really need a two column source-ordered CSS layout so that the left column can be used for navigation and the 2nd column would be for content. I suppose I'd need about 160px for the left nav and the balance for the content. But I'd like the content source to show first in the source code. Plus I'll need the header and the footer. I've searched and searched but can only find the 3 column source-ordered layout and can't figure out how to redo it to two column. Would you help me out please? Thanks in advance! JoAn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Hi Rachael, Although some may not agree with this method because of the need for multiple div wrappers, the solution at http://www.cssplay.co.uk/boxes/width2.html I think is great because it appears to work in IE5+, doesn't require any javascript and works in standards compliant browsers that understand the min-width CSS property. Best Regards, Ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Radford Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 7:01 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE Thanks everyone for your reply, I'll try each option today... David - these are HTML 4.0 pages because of the content management it is running off... so it doesn't seem to be just an XHTML problem. Hmmm... Irina - thanks for pointing out the background stuff when javascript is turned off... will be doing something about that!! Thanks, Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 5:49 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:19:33 +1200, Rachel Radford wrote: We have just launched a site (www.eastwoodhill.org.nz) but have received feedback that IE for windows is crashing!!! We have figured out that it is a bit of Javascript making it crash this bit of Javascript mimicks the CSS min-max behaviour that is needed for the navigation and for some images that have captions underneath them such as the one on the home page. Hi Rachel, We observed the same problem in my web class. I have reason to believe that this only happens on XHTML documents. At least, one document I had coded as HTML 4 strict did not have this problem. This may not be a viable solution for you, but you may like to give it a try. Seems to be an IE6 on Win XP SP2 problem only. Again, I may be wrong. Needs testing. BTW - IE did not exactly crash for us - it simply locked up. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 8/30/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1203 (20050827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Hi Rachael, Although some may not agree with this method because of the need for multiple div wrappers, the solution at http://www.cssplay.co.uk/boxes/width2.html I think is great because it appears to work in IE5+, doesn't require any javascript and works in standards compliant browsers that understand the min-width CSS property. Best Regards, Ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Radford Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 7:01 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE Thanks everyone for your reply, I'll try each option today... David - these are HTML 4.0 pages because of the content management it is running off... so it doesn't seem to be just an XHTML problem. Hmmm... Irina - thanks for pointing out the background stuff when javascript is turned off... will be doing something about that!! Thanks, Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 5:49 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:19:33 +1200, Rachel Radford wrote: We have just launched a site (www.eastwoodhill.org.nz) but have received feedback that IE for windows is crashing!!! We have figured out that it is a bit of Javascript making it crash this bit of Javascript mimicks the CSS min-max behaviour that is needed for the navigation and for some images that have captions underneath them such as the one on the home page. Hi Rachel, We observed the same problem in my web class. I have reason to believe that this only happens on XHTML documents. At least, one document I had coded as HTML 4 strict did not have this problem. This may not be a viable solution for you, but you may like to give it a try. Seems to be an IE6 on Win XP SP2 problem only. Again, I may be wrong. Needs testing. BTW - IE did not exactly crash for us - it simply locked up. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 8/30/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1203 (20050827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Hi Rachael, Although some may not agree with this method because of the need for multiple div wrappers, the solution at http://www.cssplay.co.uk/boxes/width2.html I think is great because it appears to work in IE5+, doesn't require any javascript and works in standards compliant browsers that understand the min-width CSS property. Best Regards, Ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Radford Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 7:01 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE Thanks everyone for your reply, I'll try each option today... David - these are HTML 4.0 pages because of the content management it is running off... so it doesn't seem to be just an XHTML problem. Hmmm... Irina - thanks for pointing out the background stuff when javascript is turned off... will be doing something about that!! Thanks, Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 5:49 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:19:33 +1200, Rachel Radford wrote: We have just launched a site (www.eastwoodhill.org.nz) but have received feedback that IE for windows is crashing!!! We have figured out that it is a bit of Javascript making it crash this bit of Javascript mimicks the CSS min-max behaviour that is needed for the navigation and for some images that have captions underneath them such as the one on the home page. Hi Rachel, We observed the same problem in my web class. I have reason to believe that this only happens on XHTML documents. At least, one document I had coded as HTML 4 strict did not have this problem. This may not be a viable solution for you, but you may like to give it a try. Seems to be an IE6 on Win XP SP2 problem only. Again, I may be wrong. Needs testing. BTW - IE did not exactly crash for us - it simply locked up. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 8/30/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1203 (20050827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Hi Rachael, Although some may not agree with this method because of the need for multiple div wrappers, the solution at http://www.cssplay.co.uk/boxes/width2.html I think is great because it appears to work in IE5+, doesn't require any javascript and works in standards compliant browsers that understand the min-width CSS property. Best Regards, Ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Radford Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 7:01 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE Thanks everyone for your reply, I'll try each option today... David - these are HTML 4.0 pages because of the content management it is running off... so it doesn't seem to be just an XHTML problem. Hmmm... Irina - thanks for pointing out the background stuff when javascript is turned off... will be doing something about that!! Thanks, Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 5:49 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:19:33 +1200, Rachel Radford wrote: We have just launched a site (www.eastwoodhill.org.nz) but have received feedback that IE for windows is crashing!!! We have figured out that it is a bit of Javascript making it crash this bit of Javascript mimicks the CSS min-max behaviour that is needed for the navigation and for some images that have captions underneath them such as the one on the home page. Hi Rachel, We observed the same problem in my web class. I have reason to believe that this only happens on XHTML documents. At least, one document I had coded as HTML 4 strict did not have this problem. This may not be a viable solution for you, but you may like to give it a try. Seems to be an IE6 on Win XP SP2 problem only. Again, I may be wrong. Needs testing. BTW - IE did not exactly crash for us - it simply locked up. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 8/30/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1203 (20050827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Friday fun with Suckerfish dropdowns
Which part are you trying to right align?
If you want the whole thing on the right, you can put float the
top-left UL to the right:
ul{
float:right;
}
If you want to get the menu items, you can align the text in both LIs
li{
text-align:right;
}
On 8/25/05, Miles Tillinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Has anyone been able to successfully right align the Suckerfish
horizontal dropdown menu without defining the width of the container or
UL? Preferably would work in Opera and Mac IE5 if possible.
I am using the following example:
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/bones/
MT.
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RE: [WSG] Randomly load images into the background-image selector...
Hey Andrew,
I'd like to see a script that does that! Have fun digging.
Regards,
Ryan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andrew Krespanis
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2005 11:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Randomly load images into the background-image
selector...
Aaaah, I over thought the situation -- I thought you wanted to *fade*
between the images, not just choose one at random...
Here you go :)
html
head
script
function randomBG(targetObjID) {
var obj, imgs, randNum;
obj = document.getElementById(targetObjID);
imgs = new Array();
imgs.push( 'foo.jpg');
imgs.push( 'bar.jpg');
imgs.push( 'w007.png');
randNum = Math.random() * (imgs.length - 1);
randNum = Math.round(randNum);
obj.style.backgroundImage = imgs[randNum];
// Uncomment followning line to test
//alert(imgs[randNum]);
}
window.onload = function() { randomBG('swapMe'); }; /script /head
body
div id=swapMe
Test div
/div
/body
/html
Valid xhtml1.1... NOT! ;) (at least the script is application/xhtml+xml
friendly)
The next step for this script would be to adapt it to OOD, thereby allowing
other scripts to add to the imgs array without needing to resort to global
var's.
I'm 90% sure I've got a script at home that does the above, but fades
between the remaining images after choosing the initila one at random I
say 90% sure because I remember needing that functionality for a client site
but I may have ended up using an img element due to problems with Opera
7.5 and Safari 1.1
If you're interested in that one, respond and I'll go digging tonight.
Cheers,
Andrew.
http://leftjustified.net/
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Re: [WSG] Help with a simple (?) problem
One step further, just add this:
html, body{
height:100%;
}
Remember that HTMLand BODY are valid elements that wrap all of your
content. To varying extents they can be styled like any other element
on your page. In firefox, HTML and BODY inherit their height and
width from the browser window itself, while in IE, the width is
inherited, but not the height (go figure). So setting them both to
100% height gets things consistent across browsers.
On 8/19/05, alejandro poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi man
Just try to write
height: 100%;
on the BODY on the css file and you're done. At least it work for me.
Christian Robertson wrote:
Hi all,
I am new to the list, and this is my first posting so please be gentle ;-)
I have a task I am trying to accomplish which is not going to plan.
The base code for what I want to achieve can be found at:
http://www.metamorphosis.info/test/index-test.htm
My aim is to place a single blue panel 300px from the left of the
screen, and for it to stretch from the top to the bottom. Within
that, I would like a content container element, beginning 200px from
the top.
The result is achieved by the code below in Firefox, but IE will not
stretch the pale blue background from top to bottom - seems to fit it
to the content. I've tried many options, but without success.
Can anyone please put me on the right track? Apologies if the solution
is simple, but it's often the simple plans which tend to be overlooked.
Many thanks in advance.
Chris
*XHTML:*
body
div id=maincol
div id=container
pPara 1 .../p
pPara 2 .../p
/div
/div
/body
/html
*CSS:*
body {
background-color: #909fb2;
margin: 0;}/* body margin set to 38
at top - impacts placement */
#maincol {
position: absolute;
left: 300px;
width: 270px;
height: 100%;
background-color: #b1bbc8;}
#container {
position: relative;
top: 200px;
width: 268px;
border: 1px solid #fff;
background-color: #b1bbc8;}
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Based on your requirements, I'd say your choices are Textpattern or Wordpress. I built my site on wordpress(http://www.agavegroup.com) and after that experience (and installing both wordpress and textpattern) I'd say Wordpress is easier to use, and is a great choice for small to medium sites. Anything bigger I think I'd choose Textpattern. While not quite as straight forward (in my opinion) it seems to extend into the CMS world a little better. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FireFox DOM issue.
In firefox, I have had success with selectionStart and selectionEnd
if you have a form:
form name=a
textarea name=b/textarea
you can access the start and end points of the highlighted text (or
get the position of the cursor in the text) with:
startPoint = document.a.b.selectionStart;
endPoint = document.a.b.selectionEnd;
This won't work in IE (where I tend to use document.selection) so you
have to do some kind of functionality test like:
if(document.selection){
//do IE stuff
}else if(myField.selectionStart)
//do mozilla stuff
Hope this helps
--
Patrick
www.agavegroup.com
On 8/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this group and this is my first message.
I am porting over a rich text editor that currently only works in IE.
I have done tons of search about getting the selected text in a page.
I'm very close...for instance...you can now see the formatting buttons
and also I have the correct code to get it to know what is selected and
if you click 'bold' it will put the bold tags around it in a text box.
I want it so that if NOTHING is selected and you hit bold it will give
you an alert box for the text that you would like bolded. Then plance
that text with the bold tags around it. My problem is I can't get the
right code of the DOM to test correctly for a selection being made in
the text box.
I am currently trying
Str = window.getSelection;
If (str.isCollapsed) {
if true do this;
}else{
do this;
}
I put alert(str.isCollapsed) in there to trace what is going on but it's
ALWAYS true.
I'm wondering if it's because the text is in a textarea and not just on
the page?
Like I said, I have been getting it to work without sniffing to see if a
selection has actually been made to put the tags around the text but I
can't for the life of me sniff it out through code.
I've also tried
Str = window.getSelection;
If(str.toString().length 0) to no avail.
Thanks in advance!
Buddy
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[WSG] Firefox DOM and whitespace (bug?)
I recently ran across an issue (I would call it a bug?) in firefox's DOM. I wrote a rather lengthy bit on it here: http://www.agavegroup.com/?p=32 But in short, firefox considers whitespace (tab, space, new line) to be nodes in the DOM. I've browsed the W3C spec, as well as the Mozilla DOM spec and I can't come up with anything that demonstrates how this should be handled. But it seems to me white space should be entirely ignored in the DOM. I just wanted to see if anyone else has run into this, and hear some thoughts. IE handles this differently (no surprise there...) and in this case, better. Is this a recent Firefox bug or proper behavior (that must be scripted around...). I'd be interested in any other thoughts/ideas. Thanks, Patrick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox DOM and whitespace (bug?)
Thank you for the excellent reponses. I can't believed I missed the whitespace document (http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/technote/whitespace/) I see the point, and from a one standard fits all perspective, it makes good sense. I do have to wonder though: The point of defining a DOM is to give you a structure to work with. And it's OK to create sort of sub DOMs. For example the XML DOM is basically a child of the SGML DOM. In other words while standard, the DOM was changed for XML (and therefore XHTML) to better suit XML. User agents have always (and will always) ignore whitespace in their display of XHTML. Should the DOM ignore it too? I recognize that's kind of backward logic, but it's certainly the practical view. Anyway, as they say - learn something new every day. Thanks for the reponses. -- Patrick Ryan http://www.agavegroup.com On 8/4/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 4, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Patrick Ryan wrote: I recently ran across an issue (I would call it a bug?) in firefox's DOM. ... But in short, firefox considers whitespace (tab, space, new line) to be nodes in the DOM. ... But it seems to me white space should be entirely ignored in the DOM. ... IE handles this differently (no surprise there...) and in this case, better. Is this a recent Firefox bug or proper behavior (that must be scripted around...). Firefox is right, I believe, because the DOM is defined like this: The DOM presents documents as a hierarchy of Node objects that also implement other, more specialized interfaces.[1] The whitespace is part of the document, therefore the DOM must present it within the hierarchy of Nodes. In this case, it is a Text node (defined on the same page). The proper way to parse a Nodelist is to not assume you know what is next, but to test what Nodetype the next child is, and then tailor your operation to fit (e.g., skip the whitespace and gimme the next node). Admittedly, the IE model would make some of my scripts easier to write, but then we'd lose the capability of the DOM to work with XML such that *everything* is a node, and HTML would be a special case that ignores whitespace. Enough special cases, and the standard ain't so standard. So I think we need to keep coding with tests for Nodetype. 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/core.html -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] may 1 reboot
Jan Brasna wrote: I have this setting DirectoryIndex index.phtml index.php default.php index.html index.htm on my server, so I just have to upload index.phtml - it has bigger priority. I thought about joining, but I found out about it too late, and there is no way I could get a new design for my site, but what you could do is put everything in a special directory and maybe password protect it, so you won't have to rename anything, and people won't be able to see it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The mail problem
Title: Re: [WSG] The mail problem Your not the only one. -- Ryan On 4/11/05 5:45 AM, Simon Jessey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd feel much better having Russ in charge of a nuclear arsenal than George W. Bush, but that's just me. Thank you for taking the appropriate measures. Simon Jessey Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Business Site: http://keystonewebsites.com/ Personal Site: http://jessey.net/ - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org And in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole mail server... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any nuclear weapons!
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Yeah, I received dozens of copies of the message, what's wrong? On 4/9/05 12:23 AM, Gizax Studios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what happened? I've received more responses like this - Original Message - From: scott parsons [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; IMB Recipient 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty Patrick Lauke wrote: In and of itself, flash will never be accessible to everybody, as it requires a plugin; it's not a web native technology. A plugin huh?, I've always wondered what the difference was between having to have the flash plugin and having to have a web browser? it is very hard to see any html css website without the correct plugin (that is a browser), so why does it suddenly become so much worse when flash is required? Sorry but I have just never understood this argument, would you mind explaining? Older screenreaders can't access its content at all. So, it's important to provide accessible fallback mechanisms. Yeah but my fallback positions for older browsers, like say netscape 2 are pretty hazy, theoretically they could understand the plain html, ignoring more modern tags but I haven't really tested it recently. However, for the percentage of users that *can* use flash (have the plugin, have assistive technology that works correctly with it, etc), you should then ensure that the flash itself follows sensible, accessibility-related norms and conventions. I'd suggest having a look at Bob Regan's recent post on Flash Accessibility http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007003.cfm and the interesting WCAG 1.0 Techniques for Flash http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm (just to clarify: WCAG itself does not necessarily cover Flash, as it's not an official W3C technology...so this document makes recommendations that are similar / in sympathy with what WCAG tries to achieve, but in a Flash context). These links are really useful as I work in advertising and it is a constant battle to get any kind of adherence to accessibility requirements. But also because there are many flash designers out there who would like to learn but haven't found good resources. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
I don't think it's him, because I only sent one copy of my previous message and I just received two copies with the rest of the stuff from the list, it may be a technical diffidulty with the list. On 4/9/05 12:41 AM, Absalom Media [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, scott, I'm being spammed to death with your post in this thread endlessly repeating in the WSG list. Can you hold off the barbarian hordes for a while ? Thanks Lawrence Meckan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Yeah, I received dozens of copies of the message, what's wrong? On 4/9/05 12:23 AM, Gizax Studios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what happened? I've received more responses like this - Original Message - From: scott parsons [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; IMB Recipient 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty Patrick Lauke wrote: In and of itself, flash will never be accessible to everybody, as it requires a plugin; it's not a web native technology. A plugin huh?, I've always wondered what the difference was between having to have the flash plugin and having to have a web browser? it is very hard to see any html css website without the correct plugin (that is a browser), so why does it suddenly become so much worse when flash is required? Sorry but I have just never understood this argument, would you mind explaining? Older screenreaders can't access its content at all. So, it's important to provide accessible fallback mechanisms. Yeah but my fallback positions for older browsers, like say netscape 2 are pretty hazy, theoretically they could understand the plain html, ignoring more modern tags but I haven't really tested it recently. However, for the percentage of users that *can* use flash (have the plugin, have assistive technology that works correctly with it, etc), you should then ensure that the flash itself follows sensible, accessibility-related norms and conventions. I'd suggest having a look at Bob Regan's recent post on Flash Accessibility http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007003.cfm and the interesting WCAG 1.0 Techniques for Flash http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm (just to clarify: WCAG itself does not necessarily cover Flash, as it's not an official W3C technology...so this document makes recommendations that are similar / in sympathy with what WCAG tries to achieve, but in a Flash context). These links are really useful as I work in advertising and it is a constant battle to get any kind of adherence to accessibility requirements. But also because there are many flash designers out there who would like to learn but haven't found good resources. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
I don't think it's him, because I only sent one copy of my previous message and I just received two copies with the rest of the stuff from the list, it may be a technical diffidulty with the list. On 4/9/05 12:41 AM, Absalom Media [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, scott, I'm being spammed to death with your post in this thread endlessly repeating in the WSG list. Can you hold off the barbarian hordes for a while ? Thanks Lawrence Meckan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Yeah, I received dozens of copies of the message, what's wrong? On 4/9/05 12:23 AM, Gizax Studios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what happened? I've received more responses like this - Original Message - From: scott parsons [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; IMB Recipient 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty Patrick Lauke wrote: In and of itself, flash will never be accessible to everybody, as it requires a plugin; it's not a web native technology. A plugin huh?, I've always wondered what the difference was between having to have the flash plugin and having to have a web browser? it is very hard to see any html css website without the correct plugin (that is a browser), so why does it suddenly become so much worse when flash is required? Sorry but I have just never understood this argument, would you mind explaining? Older screenreaders can't access its content at all. So, it's important to provide accessible fallback mechanisms. Yeah but my fallback positions for older browsers, like say netscape 2 are pretty hazy, theoretically they could understand the plain html, ignoring more modern tags but I haven't really tested it recently. However, for the percentage of users that *can* use flash (have the plugin, have assistive technology that works correctly with it, etc), you should then ensure that the flash itself follows sensible, accessibility-related norms and conventions. I'd suggest having a look at Bob Regan's recent post on Flash Accessibility http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007003.cfm and the interesting WCAG 1.0 Techniques for Flash http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm (just to clarify: WCAG itself does not necessarily cover Flash, as it's not an official W3C technology...so this document makes recommendations that are similar / in sympathy with what WCAG tries to achieve, but in a Flash context). These links are really useful as I work in advertising and it is a constant battle to get any kind of adherence to accessibility requirements. But also because there are many flash designers out there who would like to learn but haven't found good resources. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Yeah, I received dozens of copies of the message, what's wrong? On 4/9/05 12:23 AM, Gizax Studios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what happened? I've received more responses like this - Original Message - From: scott parsons [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; IMB Recipient 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty Patrick Lauke wrote: In and of itself, flash will never be accessible to everybody, as it requires a plugin; it's not a web native technology. A plugin huh?, I've always wondered what the difference was between having to have the flash plugin and having to have a web browser? it is very hard to see any html css website without the correct plugin (that is a browser), so why does it suddenly become so much worse when flash is required? Sorry but I have just never understood this argument, would you mind explaining? Older screenreaders can't access its content at all. So, it's important to provide accessible fallback mechanisms. Yeah but my fallback positions for older browsers, like say netscape 2 are pretty hazy, theoretically they could understand the plain html, ignoring more modern tags but I haven't really tested it recently. However, for the percentage of users that *can* use flash (have the plugin, have assistive technology that works correctly with it, etc), you should then ensure that the flash itself follows sensible, accessibility-related norms and conventions. I'd suggest having a look at Bob Regan's recent post on Flash Accessibility http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007003.cfm and the interesting WCAG 1.0 Techniques for Flash http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm (just to clarify: WCAG itself does not necessarily cover Flash, as it's not an official W3C technology...so this document makes recommendations that are similar / in sympathy with what WCAG tries to achieve, but in a Flash context). These links are really useful as I work in advertising and it is a constant battle to get any kind of adherence to accessibility requirements. But also because there are many flash designers out there who would like to learn but haven't found good resources. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on
Re: [WSG] Validation of CSS
That is a good point, there should be a DOCTYPE identifier for CSS, that would make it a lot easier to validate and everything. -- Ryan On 4/7/05 8:08 PM, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to someone who'd validated their CSS and got an error for display:inline-block. He was using the W3 validator, and it was telling him it was invalid, and it is of course, for CSS 1 and 2. If you used the advanced options and validated against the CSS 3 standard, it was fine. Which led him to ask a very sensible question -- why isn't there some kind of identifier like the DOCTYPE for CSS? Any thoughts? Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE 7.0 Details Begin to Leak
Let the rain of hellfire begin! Though in the past, all they do is weave more deceit and under-deliver on release. I read that MS decides to introduce more bugs into IE7, and fix none from IE6. Joy. Nick Lo wrote: Partner sources say Microsoft is wavering on the extent to which it plans to support CSS2 with IE 7.0. Developers have been clamoring for Microsoft to update its CSS support to support the latest W3C standards for years. But Microsoft is leaning toward adding some additional CSS2 support to IE 7.0, but not embracing the standard in its entirety, partners say. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Hey all, Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? There would be so many ways to hide text with css, setting display to none, setting the background colour, pushing the padding up so the text gets pushed out of the element, etc... Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords, and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Indented text
OK here's the thing... I want to put an image on the left of some text, and have the text not wrap back under the image after it goes past it. Here is an example, if you imagine my image being where the XX's are. xxx My text is here xxx and the sentence continues xxx longer and longer and stays at the same indent no matter how long it gets I've done this quite simply in Internet Explorer by putting the text in a 'display:inline-block;' span, but this display type is not supported on FireFox. Is there a cross platform way of achieving this without resorting to the dreaded table? thanks! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] X-STANDARD
hi group. was just on the web and was looking into x-standard, i'm currently using dreamweaver mx 2004. anyone have any feedback on x-standard and how it compares to dreamweaver? or possibly another web standard editor that ensures standards? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Image replacement and printing
Hi all, We've just been investigating using Fahrner Image Replacement, or one of its more accessibility friendly derivatives, when we came across the problem of printing. It seems that in IE the default option is to not print background images and colours. So a person printing our web page will not be getting any of the headings that have been replaced with images. Has anyone found a solution to this? I really like the idea of specifying heading text in a Hx tag and replacing it for the user, but most clients aren't going to go for it if the user has to fiddle with their settings to get it to print. thanks, bye... --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Heading without line break
Heya? How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an Hx tag? e.g. h3My heading/h3 and some more text. I want the words and some more text. to appear on the same line. How would I do this? thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Text wrapping and background images
Hi all, me again... Strange problem with text wrapping and background images here: http://www.newgency.com/ryans/test/test.html I'm trying to get the 'read more' graphic to always sit at the right of the 'Read more' text. In Firefox this works fine, but in IE, when the 'Read more' text wraps, the position of the graphic gets mucked up and it either appears in the wrong place, or disappears entirely. To see this happen, open up the above link in IE, then play with the size of the browser window until the words 'Read more' gets popped to the next line. You'll see the arrow disappear. Is there any way to make this work correctly across browsers? or will I have to give up on using css to put that image there. The style info is in the same file if you want to View Source. bye! BTW, thanks for all your help lately folks, much appreciated. I hope to return the favour sometime soon. --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Forms using CSS
Hi all, Are there any good guides around to styling form elements using CSS? The issue right now is that I want to know how far I can go with formatting groups of checkboxes without using tables, but I'm sure I'll have more questions soon... thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] setting height of a 'li' element
Hi all, I'm trying to debug some display issues I'm having between IE and Firefox. I'm trying to build a horizontal nav with a background image in each list item to give the appearance of tabs. All was going well in IE, but when I tried it in Firefox, I couldn't get the height of the LI elements to equal the height of the UL element, so it wasn't showing the full background image in Firefox. I've whittled it down to this simple demo: http://www.newgency.com/test/csstest.htm I've got black borders around the UL and LI elements. In Firefox you can see that the LI elements do not fill the vertical space inside the UL elements. Can someone tell me why this is happening? I've put the style info in the same file as the HTML to make it easier to debug. thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?)
To me tabular means...tabular. Take a look at most real-world forms. DMV, tax forms, you name it. Mostly all tabular. The form is broken up into logical groups / cells indicating a relationship of relationship through the structure. Yes I know fieldsets also create a group/relationship of form fields, but point being the motif of forms in a tabular format has been around and used for a long time. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Wilson Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:13 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?) Andy: If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's. Therefore data output in tabular form is okay but data input is not. Hi, Sorry if I quoted you out of context Andy (I don't have the original message), but I have a question regarding why forms should or should not be considered tabular data. Suppose we are presenting the user with a form where the inputs are pre populated with data; for example a form used to edit an entry in a database. In your opinion (or anyone else's), should this impact whether the form should be considered tabular or not? First Name [Michael] Last Name [Wilson] Age [Old] Although the data is contained within form elements, technically this is data output. I haven't formed an opinion on the subject, so please don't take my comment as some kind of troll. I've avoided the use of tables for forms for some time now--some times it works out, sometimes it does not. It just occurred to me as I was reading the responses here that, within the argument, the question of data input versus data output seemed to be the (or part of the) crux. Is this the case or does the argument hinge on the fact that the input element itself is not data; therefore, not tabular. If this is the premise, then couldn't one argue that the p element is not data; therefore, not tabular? -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?)
I agree. I quite sweating these a while ago, because it's all up to some measure of interpretation. (Raises mug) Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David R Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:39 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?) Iain Gardiner wrote: They are only semantically correct when used within specific contexts. Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) with valid html (correct code). They are two completely different sides of the same coin. If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a member of the wrong list. Lets not start a flame war ;) Tables are used to define data, data sets, results, and columnar information. DefLists (dldtdd) are strictly for the listing of defintions, its generally accepted practice to use this element for information displayed in title/content pairs. And fieldsets are used to group related input fields. Consider that Tables are equally qualified to display information in title/content format, this is how databases store information, and from a glance, an Excel spreadsheet is no different from a database's dataview, or a table containing the same data. Real-world(tm) forms, such as Tax Returns, are often layouted in a tabular manner... see for yourself, its tax-season in the states right now (AFAIK). But at the same time, a dl could be used, as virtually all the questions on a tax return are in the Question: Write/Choose your answer format. Don't accuse me of confusing semantics with valid code, I think I know the difference. It seems you're the one confusing me with a beginner in the field. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist, and in the real world, it doesn't make a difference regarding semantics, accessibility, rendering/apperance or usability in general. All are equally valid! -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I think you have to also understand there are many 'Microsoft's' depending on which department / product you are referring to. The global company name might be the same, but departments are segmented and don't necessarily talk to each other. I've been to a Microsoft presentation where the VB.NET product manager (one of them) was discussing the design decisions they made and the design decisions that the C# group made. Point being even groups as similar as a programming language were not at all on the same page. In fact he discussed battling with the office group about supporting certain .NET features in their API. Each group is responsible for what makes THEM money and is best for THEM, and it doesn't necessarily matter what another group is trying to promote. Hence one 'Microsoft' supported WC3 standards... Another 'Microsoft' doesn't even consider web standards when writing what .NET will put out. When it comes to the next IE7, the process will be the same. That group will make thousands of design decisions from the same basis, time and money. It will probably be very standard compliant because the market is very different right now from what it was then, but it will not be what we may want it to be. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Advice on updating a site
Hi all, Sometime in the near future, I will be embarking on the ambitious project to convert this site: http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/CFForum/ To a CSS based layout. Be warned, viewing the source of that may cause blindness and/or temporary insanity... suffice to say it was handed to us by a previous developer... When you look at that home page, and maybe 1 or 2 of the forum index pages, does that say 'table' based layout to you? Or would it make more sense to find a way to represent the main pages without using tables. To me that looks like a table, but I haven't been doing this for that long and you guys might have a different perspective on it. thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redesigning an eyesore
Looks good, a big improvement on the old site, especially because you removed the Java navigation elements. I have just one query, the menus at the top only appear when clicked, is this the intended behaviour? I expected that they would appear when the mouse was over them. I was viewing the site in Firefox 1.0 on WinXP SP2. Ryan S ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Slow loading of CSS
Hi all, Its great that more and more people are fully laying out their sites using CSS, but I'm often seeing the problem where the HTML loads before the CSS, leaving a second or so where you can see the raw structure of the site before it gets the stylesheet applied. For example: http://www.comedyfestival.com.au/raw/2005/index.php (Not a site I have anything to do with BTW, just one I came across tonight) This is a fairly simple site, and the developer has done well to build it using CSS, but when I view it using Internet Explorer I'm seeing the raw HTML for about a second before the CSS gets loaded. This can be confusing to the end user, as it almost looks like you are being redirected through another page. On the machine I'm on right now I don't have any other browsers to try it on, but does this problem happen with other browsers? Is there a way to avoid it when the site is browsed using IE? thanks, bye! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Table with alternating row colours
Hey all, I'm interested to hear what WSGers think is the best way to implement alternating row colours in a table. From what I can see there is no way to do this using CSS alone, all the methods I've seen use either JavaScript or server side logic to generate the row colours. Is this a limitation of the CSS model that you can't do this? Is there a logical way this can be incorporated into CSS? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] color schemer
Flipping this on its ear: are there any tools to help those with good colour perception to preview what a design might look like to those who are colour blind. I know certain schemers do this, but I'm thinking more for reviewing finished products. Sadly my eyes didn't come with a colour blindness setting. ;) Ryan Reynolds From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Collin Davis Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] color schemer Ted, I wholly agree with you but what good is color theory if you cant pick them out? In my case Im severely colorblind, and have to rely on programs (I use ColorSuite for Hexachrome by Pantone) to find complementary colors. Its not that I cant, or dont understand color theory its just impossible for me to transfer theoretical knowledge to practical application. Cheers, Collin Davis Web Architect Stromberg Architectural Products p 903.454.0904 f 903.454.3642 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] web www.strombergarchitectural.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] color schemer if you don't understand the concepts behind the finished product, you are at the mercy of the program. Color theory is not difficult, but if you understand the basic rules, your site will not only be more attractive but also more accessible. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] my form field looks like the girl that chewed gum on willy Wonkas
We have plenty of forms on our site and they all behave pretty well, except our
search box. The coding is exactly the same, the style sheets are the same, but
the text input box is huge!
http://www.csatravelprotection.com/csa/help.do
The only variation is the form action. It is referencing a form action at
freefind.com.
In forms.css you apply padding of 15 px to the top of the search form
element, if you change this to a margin instead or remove the padding it
looks to solve the problem. Change this rule:
#search {width:215px; clear:left; padding-top:15px; }
It is also a bit bigger after changing the above rule as it recieves
additional padding from this rule in screen.css
#search {clear:both; padding:5px 0 5px 10px; }
The padding in both of these rules is applied within the input element,
a margin would be better for spacing in this case.
--Ryan
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RE: [WSG] using IE7 script
I did install it briefly to check it out. I think I found it to be slow? I didn't really investigate it. I also think it was an all or nothing solutions? Maybe it wasn't. I would like a version that I could scale to alow do a few small things like sibling selectors and such. I was thinking of writing a slimmed down version but maybe I'll give IE7 a second chance. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Boehmer Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] using IE7 script Hi guys, I was just wondering whether any of you have used the Dean Edwards Javascript for IE7 (http://dean.edwards.name/ie7) and what the general opinion on it is? To be honest I am bit hesitant to use it, as I don't want to rely on my users having javascript turned on, but I guess the worst that could happen is for the design in IE not to look 100% okay if JS is turned off. Does anybody have prior experiences with it? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Careers in web standards
My company was recently looking for a XHTML/CSS coder who practices web standards development. We were looking for someone with strong CSS skills, who could implement complex designs in table-less css, practiced standards based semantic markup, and was fluent in accessible XHTML. No programming or design skills needed. I thought it might be interesting to this group on what kind of response we got: Applicants who were primarily programmers with little to no knowledge of XHTML or table-less CSS implementations: 26 Applicants who produced non-standards markup, had no working XHTML examples, or did not produce table-less designs: 23 Applicants who were primarily visual designers: 3 (1 was somewhat technical and able to do table-less CSS) Applicants who were out-fo-state, or completely out of industry: 3 Applicants who did not, or could not produce live examples of work (it was a requirement): 4 Fully qualified applicants: 1 Total Applicants: 60 This was not a real aggresive campaign, but I was blown away by the lack of true standards compliant markup practitioners. It seems like as more and more companies adopt a forward thinking view of web development, this skillset will be a hot commodity. I would imagine anyways. Cheers. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037
Re: [WSG] why oh why
Web Usability wrote: A friend of mine came across this site yesterday and when he accessed it with Firefox he got nothing but code on the screen. http://www.ceinternet.com.au/site/index.htm I tried it with Firefox 0.9 this morning and got the same result. However when the site is viewed with MSIE 6 and NS 7 you get the actual page. Needless to say there is a wee validation problem. Anybody got any ideas why it behaves so diffently with Firefox. NB for the Firefoxers, don't hate me for I'm not suggesting this is a problem with Firefox. Roger ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Strangely I have no problem loading the site in Firefox 1.0 on Windows XP. It does load in non-standards mode but it appears as a normal page not code. Ryan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fonts size problem
Javier wrote: Hi All I've problems with font sizes. I'm developing a web page using em to define font sizes. When I see the page in Firefox or Mozilla, size it's ok for me. But when I see the same page with IE, fonts appear so small... How could I make fonts appear in the same size (or at least, something similar) in IE and Firefox ? Thanks in advance Javier ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** I did have lots of trouble with the various sizes when starting out with ems, I found http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/incremental_differences.html to be a lot of help. Using the ideas from here I generally size the text at 76% for the body then adjust the other rules as necessary. Its not exact but its pretty close. I hope this is some help. --Ryan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] alt tag boundaries
Something else that came to mind as well. Imagine if the alt text were a pull-quote in a magazine article. Would it hold up? Does the alt text add something to the current page's content? Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] alt tag boundaries Hi Gang I don't know if this is off topic, I thought I'd risk the post anyways. I work for a commercial company and they naturally want the best search results and all that go with it. I have convinced them to not spam the alt tags, that we need to keep them proper for accessibility. In fact, our site almost gets a AAA rating on WAI and I've done as much as I can to keep to the spirit of the standards. However, I have a question for those of you interested in accessibility. I currently have an image with an alt (attribute) tag of photo of a laptop with coffee and rose petals Now, I know this is not the greatest description. It was sort of a dig at the requirement to use the silly image. However, it's time to fix it and I'm thinking of replacing it with this: Purchase insurance online with the convenience of a laptop as seen in this image Do you think this is pushing the boundaries of the alt attribute? I think it is short and does describe the image with more interesting copy than the original. What do you think? Ted Drake www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] List item background disappears in IE6
On the site I'm currently working on, the link image for the farthest right item (Photo Albums) won't load in IE6, however the block dimensions for the a tag still show up and don't seem to be reduced at all. The logo is a background for the overlay div, and is located beneath the ul's container. The two divs overlap slightly, but I didn't think this would cause a problem. page: http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/index.html css: http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/css/general.css http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/css/ie5pluswin.css What's causing this? Is there a better way to go about that layout than what I've done? -Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site Review Request
Hi Dan, It is a nice design, with attractive colors. One thing I would mention is the main menu text is a little small. One thing I wanted to mention to people that I learned recently is about LCD monitors vs CRT monitors. I have both here on my desk, and my CRT is a cheap brand, probably what a lot of people have. They eventually, or right out of the box, get blurry. The red, green, and blue pixels don't match up anymore. So the small text you have for the menu is barely legible to me. It's FINE on the crisp LCD (or a good quality monitor) that doesn't age that way, but really bad on my 'average joe' CRT. Same with all of the small blue link text as well. Just keep that in mind the CRT suck factor when designing. I suppose looking at them is like a person with poor eyesight sees things...If you don't have a cheap CRT in your office, GET ONE! It really helps :) Cheers! Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Bowling Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 5:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Site Review Request Hello, I would greatly appreciate any feedback for my personal site regarding design, standards compliance, usability and general code quality. http://www.danbowling.com Thank you for your time, Dan Bowling W: http://www.danbowling.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links
Yes I see your point. But aren't we just back to looking at default behavior? Your describing a particular function of a particular browser that was created and programmed by the developer of that browser, unless I'm mistaken. What, in theory, is the difference by coding to that feature than say, coding to a custom visual feature of IE 4 circa '97? Extensible means just that, It's up to the coder to determine what, how, and why to extend it. If there are limitations as you described because XYZ browser feature won't work ect, then it's the limits of the current working languages we have. SSML has a 'say-as' or 'interpret-as' which may fill this gap, albeit a long ways away. It appears to me that the other types of rendering such as speech or text-only is caught in the same sad state as the visual browsers were 5 years back. It will probably take that industry a number of years before they become standardized in how they handle data, or have the languages recommendations/standards to work out what is needed and what is not. Again, I think the general concept is for eventually everything to be XML, and interpretation, visual or otherwise, to be decided by the developer. My only point was that now and in the future, you won't be limited. That's not to say you won't have important factors to consider, but you aren't LIMITED by the existing tags. Cheers Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links -Original Message- From: Ryan Nichols Really a browser doesn't understand what any of the tags are. What you see are only the browsers default behavior at rendering certain items it's aware of in the DTD. This was all put in by whoever made the browser, and is totally up to the browser. Default renderings are not specified in W3C. This is the forward view of browser-to-document relationships. All these default behaviors can be overridden by supplying your own rendering rules (css). You missed my point, but maybe it was just me being cryptic. I'm not talking about the *visual rendering* (default or otherwise, which yes of course can be changed to your heart's content via CSS). What I mean by *understand* is that certain elements trigger behaviours that go well beyond the mere visual aspects, and particularly in conjunction with assistive technology etc you need to stick to an established, agreed syntax. An example: let's say I dream up my own custom DTD which defines the elements ARTICLETITLE and ARTICLESTRAPLINE. I define some CSS to make them *visually* render like H1 and H2 would by default. Great, appearance wise it works as it should (in modern browsers anyway). However, if I'm using a screenreader on top of my OS, and - on a page using this custom DTD - I select the outline view (which lists the document structure by looking at the headings), I get back nothing because the browser and screenreader do not *understand* that ARTICLETITLE and ARTICLESTRAPLINE are structural elements that effectively denote headings for sections on the page. The same kind of thing would also apply, of course, to search engines: they would accept your custom elements (heck, they wouldn't care at all of course), but would treat them as they would any other plain text, not adding any extra weighting to anything because it's a title/heading/etc simply because they don't understand the custom elements defined in the DTD. *That's* what I'm going on about. Visually, yes...you can do whatever you want with your own elements. But for them to actually be useful, they need to stick to an agreed syntax whose rules (for all intents and purposes) have been hardcoded into a browser or user agent. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster External Relations Division Faraday House University of Salford Greater Manchester M5 4WT Tel: +44 (0) 161 295 4779 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] webteam: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links
It's about walking a fine (sane) line, and in many cases realising that the semantic structures offered by (x)html are actually quite limited, and you won't always find the exact right set of elements that perfectly fit your real-world content...so it turns into a question of triage. I think this is where Xhtml has it's (eventual) power. Since it's extensible, you could use your own DTD, which has extra tags and markup which contains the semantic meaning you need. Then via CSS and javascript, you can alter/style the data anyway you need for the client. I believe eventually this is where shared documents over a network will end up (the web). Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links Sean Naden wrote: er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal ...except that it does not, intrinsically, have any structure or semantic meaning if it's just a line of text with an arbitrary character as separator. Using a list attempts to give some meaning and relationship to the various bits that make up the breadcrumb. However, it's true that one needs to be able to draw the line, and not get too carried away with using lists. Otherwise everything starts looking like a list (in the same way that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail): a page of text could arguably be seen as an ordered list of paragraphs/lists/images, even individual words could be ordered lists of individual characters, etc. It's about walking a fine (sane) line, and in many cases realising that the semantic structures offered by (x)html are actually quite limited, and you won't always find the exact right set of elements that perfectly fit your real-world content...so it turns into a question of triage. Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links
Really a browser doesn't understand what any of the tags are. What you see are only the browsers default behavior at rendering certain items it's aware of in the DTD. This was all put in by whoever made the browser, and is totally up to the browser. Default renderings are not specified in W3C. This is the forward view of browser-to-document relationships. All these default behaviors can be overridden by supplying your own rendering rules (css). The old way is to code your markup to the browser default behavior, really we need to code and markup to the content, semantically, then use the tools we have to tell the browser how to render. I always found that the more I think in terms of the future and the way things are heading, it helps me make better decisions on what to do now. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links Ryan Nichols wrote: I think this is where Xhtml has it's (eventual) power. Since it's extensible, you could use your own DTD, which has extra tags and markup which contains the semantic meaning you need. Then via CSS and javascript, you can alter/style the data anyway you need for the client. Maybe it's a bit too much of a principle idea, but...even if you can extend xhtml to include all sorts of your own vocabularies, this does not guarantee that the browser will actually *understand* them. They may present them, and maybe even make them available in the DOM as a separate node, but they may not know what they actually are. Yes, a very academic discussion, admittedly... Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Vignette and web standards = disaster?
My experience with Vignette CMS has produced horribly non-standard code, regardless of the power behind the CMS itself. Vignette isn't popular because it does things right. Frankly, I just think it's popular because it costs an arm and leg to use, so hell -- it has to be good! right!? ;) Ian Fenn wrote: Hello, Help! I'm working on a major website and getting the problem Douglas Bowman describes here: http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2002/10/09/cms_troubles.html Any anyone here faced this problem and been able to fix it? Douglas clearly managed to - wired.com did indeed relaunch - but I'm awaiting his reply. It has been a day or so and I'm up against a tight deadline :-( If anyone can shed light, I'd be enormously grateful. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://theward.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] about.com's Web standards article
Nothing wrong with using WYSIWYGs - so long as they are standards-compliant. I tell you what - if you can get our WYSIWYG to create non-standards compliant markup, we'll get you a Firefox t-shirt. Use the link below, this version will run in Firefox PR1: http://xstandard.com/misc/beta/x-pro.exe Aaron won't be getting a t-shirt :) I've tried in the past! X-Standard doesn't carry the stigma of a traditional WYSIWYG, but it is a visual editor. Anyway, Jennifer Kyrnin is obviously a novice, hasn't researched the benfits outside her little world, and is probably an advisor for the MS/IE team ;) -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://extrablack.com (opening soon) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] FYI: article on making your ASP.NET pages XHTML valid
If anyone is interested, I have done the same thing using another method. Instead of relying on text search and replace, you can just create your own HTMLTextWriter. I use XHTMLTextWriter when I want to write XHTML, and the standard when I don't. It's a wee bit more robust that way, perhaps even faster. If anyone's interested in altering .NET this way, just email me directly. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gianfranco Todini Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] FYI: article on making your ASP.NET pages XHTML valid I'm that developer, as I didn't know about it, very interesting!!! In fact with our cms we make sites html 4.01 compliant but with the transitional schema because of dot.net viewstate and things like that...but with it we can reconsider an XHML approach for new clients!! Cheers Barry! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: 11 October 2004 08:37 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] FYI: article on making your ASP.NET pages XHTML valid there's probably only 10 ASP.NET developers on list that this might apply to and probably 9 that have already read this - but just in case you're the one that missed out this (updated) article might be of some help A C# class to make your ASP.NET pages XHTML valid http://www.codeproject.com/aspnet/ASPNET2XHTML.asp cheers Barry Beattie CF Web Developer Alpha Business Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: +61 07 3216 0999 Unit 1, 31 Thompson Street Bowen Hills QLD 4006 www.alphabus.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
In most of the usability testing I've conducted or been involved in, participants have stated that they do not like pop up windows. - Susan I don't doubt that! Let's replace our word of 'pop-up' (which many web surfers would shudder at the thought of :) and replace it with 'information I can get / action I can do, without leaving the page'. That's what will pass. Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. Sometimes customers need additional information that you have not provided on a page, such as extra help or product details. Provide a link to a pop-up window containing clean product details, context sensitive help, or information from the frequently asked questions to make the extra information less intrusive. Your challenge is to implement this extra content without detracting from the main purpose. not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. - Terrance Ah.. Exactly, that's a situation which happens many many times in web applications. You are thinking of traditional pop-ups. But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. - Terrence Your forgetting, nothing you do inline will command as much attention as info displayed on top of the page content. It attracts our attention visually and will produce quicker and more accurate responses from users. Disturbing the page layout to show complex information will confuse the user and you risk them not even noticing the change. The key is a process funnel. The user is attempting to accomplish a clearly defined task. They want to accomplish it, they've 'signed up' to accomplish it. THAT's where the pop-up window (DHTML or Browser) is useful. Forcing them onto another page will lose sales and disorient the user. Imagine filling out a complex form and you click on a link called need help? and you are whisked away to an entirely different page deep in the help section? User choice? The user doesn't know WHAT'S going to happen before clicking, and in this case, disorientation shouldn't be a choice. Again, I have to say in a shopping cart scenario, you will lose sales when you remove people from a process funnel in the middle of the transaction. You and I know how to right-click and open in a tab...but most people do not. Also keep in mind in the same scenarios, it may not be a link. You might want to show a window with a critical error alert, something that must be dealt with by the user before continuing. Pop-up windows command more attention than anything you can do on the page itself. (Think warning dialog boxes in windows) I think we're all deeply scarred and mentally distraught from annoying pop-up ads...I know I am! But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. At any rate, back to semantics...I'd personally love to see the addition of link types for anchors in future versions. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan R. Grossman Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 6:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? A number of the corporations I've work for have the best practice of presenting a page in the same window which notifies the user that they are about to leave the coproration name web site with links that give the user the choice of continuing on to an external website or returning to the page they clicked on the external link from. Many of them also add a disclaimer on this page that lets the user know that the website they are going to content is not controlled by them and therefore they can't gaurantee the content. If they choose to go on, the external site is opened in the same window to avoid confusion of windows lost behind, or not knowing what has happened. After careful thought I have instituted this process during many other contracts since it allows the user to make a decision. Since they are links, not buttons the user can also opt to open the external link in a separate window and return to the the page the external link was on. Though I do not urge clients to use the disclaimer since they're already announcing it's not their website. This is done whether the external link is integrated into text or on a links page, since it's not reasonable to assume that all web users understand that a links page generally means external links. Susan Grossman On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:43:30
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I'm intitially responded to a post regarding any possible usability reasons why you would want 'pop-ups'. I re-defined pop-ups as not limited to web pop-ups, but any windowed information which appears on top of content to show contextual information or prompt for user action. Whether it is implemented with flash, javascript, browser window, or a desktop GUI, I gave usability reasons why those paradigms are used and the context in which they are useful. At this point any further discussion boils down to misunderstandings. I fully understand why 95% of the time on websites/applications new browser windows are not good I only wanted to make an alternate point. At any rate this is a great list and the posts here are very informative to read. Cheers! Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? On 7/10/04 4:15 AM, Ryan Nichols wrote: Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. I have this book, and as a formal collection of design patterns it's a fantastic resource. But, I don't rate it highly in terms of it's usability e.g. the TOC uses condensed light all caps which is really hard to scan. And, a cursory look before leaving for work this morning failed to turn up the term process funnel. My point is this: the book lacks usabilty, and by extension so will many of their suggestions. The last sentence you cite is good. not really helpful stuff like preventing me from overwriting a file in a save dialog. Also, with desktop applications you usually cannot proceed with a task until you have completed whatever subtask a dialog (pop-up) requires, which is not the case with pop-ups in a web browser. - Terrance Ah.. Exactly, that's a situation which happens many many times in web applications. You are thinking of traditional pop-ups. Exactly what situation happens many times in web applications? The nature, or behavior of pop-ups doesn't change because of their content. Can you be more specific about what a non-traditional pop-up is? But wait theres more? At what point in making a sale do you want to interrupt that process? If it's related, and important enough to the checkout process, then include it inline. - Terrence Your forgetting, nothing you do inline will command as much attention as info displayed on top of the page content. It attracts our attention visually and will produce quicker and more accurate responses from users. Disturbing the page layout to show complex information will confuse the user and you risk them not even noticing the change. I'm sure the invetor of the blink tag and marquee tag, and 1px killer design said the same... there are countless ways of focusing attention. And my question stands: what would you want to do that is more important than confirming an order? Clear labeling and familiar patterns produce quick and accurate results - nothing else. The key is a process funnel. The user is attempting to accomplish a clearly defined task. They want to accomplish it, they've 'signed up' to accomplish it. THAT's where the pop-up window (DHTML or Browser) is useful. Forcing them onto another page will lose sales and disorient the user. Imagine filling out a complex form and you click on a link called need help? and you are whisked away to an entirely different page deep in the help section? Ryan, I think you're missing the point. I've said If the information is important to task completion include it inline. My sense of inline is not neccessarily a new page - it can come after the task oriented stuff placed at the top of the page. A new window usually *does* load a new page and this is why you assume additional information comes from a separate document. User choice? The user doesn't know WHAT'S going to happen before clicking, and in this case, disorientation shouldn't be a choice. Again, I have to say in a shopping cart scenario, you will lose sales when you remove people from a process funnel in the middle of the transaction. You and I know how to right-click and open in a tab...but most people do not. Also keep in mind in the same scenarios, it may not be a link. see comments above... and again how is a popup window not removing a person from the task at hand?. You might want to show a window with a critical error alert, something that must be dealt with by the user before continuing. Pop-up windows command more attention than anything you can do on the page itself. (Think warning dialog boxes in windows) As I stated earlier, and which you quote at the beginning of this email
Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts
RF I vote for it's tabular data - use a table. Cool, thought so... I was thinking that because it was more a navigation device to edit items, rather than a display of tabular information, it would be better implemented a different way. at the end of the day its just a table I guess. thanks! You'll be hearing from me again... --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. If you think about these scenarios, it is when the application needs to present something new to you, but do so in a way that you don't lose your context. You don't want to alter the layout of the 'page' for this, because the content may not be directly related, and it can confuse the user from accomplishing their task. Think of complex scenarios such as when your funneling a user through a shopping cart checkout. In these scenarios, you do not want to distract the user in any way from the task, you don't want to confuse them. However, often you might need to collect data on a particular topic related to the checkout process. This is a fantastic time to use contextual windows. They allow the user to answer the question in a way that they can still 'see' or be aware of what they were originally doing, rather than going to another page and losing context. Now the reason 'it's up to the user' bit doesn't apply is because this is an application. The user is already using the application and they are actively engaged in it. Applications are geared to helping the user accomplish a task. Passive browsing is different, and most of the arguments expressed here are great points for that user context. To use another example, imagine a long article on a webpage. You funneled through the navigation and selected your article you are going to invest time to read. The article has a lot of diagrams. This is a good place to use contextual information. Think of a physical book. Ever been anoyed at having to skip ahead or back to find that diagram they referenced? Your annoyed because you lost your context, you lost your place in the text and had to go somewhere else to find the extra information. In a web article, those same diagrams can 'popup' in small windows, and you can view and close them without having to lose your place. This is not possible by sending the user to a whole new webpage. Trust me, user testing would find the contextual scenario much more pleasing. Also remember dial-up users. Loading and reloading that page takes time, even with 'cache'. Viewing the contextual information is much faster if it appears in it's own window. Now you could use DHTML for this. This is a pretty feasible alternative. But it has drawbacks all its own. The issue is not the mechanism for 'popping up', it's the usability of contextual information that is the issue. Remember there are years of history in user experience design for applications, and those tried and true methods don't fall off the face of the planet with a new medium :) Cheers Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 4:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
I really need to move to Australia. I know that if I manage to catch a plane there, I won't have enough money to make it back to the US anyway. Any Melbies who don't show for Shea and Bowman are insane! afdesign wrote: The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been moved to Tuesday October 5. This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but details are still being worked out. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down. So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and other lists you may be on. As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://extrablack.com (opening soon) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] gBrowser from Google
Well, I did manage to get a warning from Google that our service (GMail) may not look right because you aren't using IE message, so the hopes of them NOT using IE as a backend? Slim. Corporations like Google are probably going to jump on ease of use and/or popularity. Still, it'd be nice to have gecko running the show. It'll suck if gBrowser turns out to be some craptastic IE wrapper like CrazyBrowser. Oh, the numbers of people who refer to CrazyBrowser as an actual browser is frightening. Don't these people wonder why it is that having IE6 installed is a requirement to run it's software?! *palm to the forehead* Webstandards wrote: Hi everyone I was recently told by a friend that there is talk of a browser to be released soon by Google called gBrowser I have googled for any news on it, and what support for standards it may have, but haven't really heard much.. To keep on topic, has anyone heard whether it will follow standards at all?? Or will it do a Netscape and use Mozilla and add extras on top? Their toolbar is IE only (a Mozilla version project at http://sourceforge.net/projects/google-toolbar/ has not moved in ages), so I am hoping they aren't going to base on IE With the number of gmail accounts going about, I can only think what a few gmail plug-ins to a gBrowser can do, before nearly every desktop will have it installed. Ralph ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://extrablack.com (opening soon) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
