[WSG] IE7 - The Good the Bad and the Ugly
I don't know how many of you have tried IE7(currently Beta 2) yet, but It has a number of 'features' that could cause some issues / solve some issues, I thought I would list those that i've experienced and see if I can get some comments on them: * More informative Error Pages. As a general usability feature, I thoroughly approve of the more friendly error pages in IE7. That way, when your site's server goes down, people won't just be dumped with a nasty pile of technical text. * Transparent PNGs This is a good one, I can't wait to begin using transparent PNGs, tho I can see lots of usability issues arising from sites mis-using them. * Default Font Size The IE7 default font size seems a very small, even for me (someone who likes his font sizes at about 70%). Perhaps this will be changed in the final release, but trying to read the Register in IE7 using the default size is pretty taxing. * Zoom function. M$ seem to be trying to cater for everyone by including both font size and overall zoom controls. However their zoom feature doesn't seem to be as well implemented as Opera's one and I have noticed lots of odd effects appearing while zooming. * Invisible Menu-bar I know it's not a WSG issue but: I like what they're doing with the menus. By default, the menu bar is hidden, freeing up screen-space for the tabbar. However, when you press a standard menu shorfut (Alt- f for example), the menu magically appears and then hides again when you've finished. (You can turn the menu-bar back on if you wish). * Tabbed Browsing Well this one was just waiting to happen. I'm not someone who expects my tabs to do lots of wonderfull things so I'm just happy that they're included in IE7. Overall, IE7 seems to be more predictable in it's rendering results that IE6 (and especially IE5) but things have a tendancy to break horribly when zooming. Anyone else have any experiences to add to this list? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1
you're right of course. I should use an OL and put the breadcrumb text as a heading. However I found this method to be the most compliant and easiest to implement, and it is understandable in most browsers. On 23 Feb 2006, at 20:55, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Stephen Stagg wrote: For the benefit of Screen-readers and textmode browsers, I add a LI with the text 'breadcrumb' at the top of the list which is then hidden using CSS. It's not a perfect solution but it works. ul li class=firstBreadcrumb: / liaMenu Item 1// liaMenu Item 2// liaMenu Item 3// / As it's an unordered list, it implies that there is no particular order to the items...you could jumble them up at random and they'd still retain their meaning. This, of course, is not true for home paths / breadcrumb trails. The order is quite specific, so if lists are your thing, ordered lists should really be used. For the same reason, having the first item breadcrumb does not imply anything, as it's a sibling of the other list items...which is not the case. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1
On 23 Feb 2006, at 11:19, Ian Anderson wrote:
Kevin Futter wrote:
Anyway, for the benefit of others interested in this thread/topic,
the
upshot from the above link seems to be that the pipe character (|)
is the
best compromise currently available as a screen reader-friendly
element
separator.
I profoundly disagree with that. The vertical bar is the worst
thing you can use in a breadcrumb trail, regardless of how it reads
in a screen reader. This is conventionally used on the web as a
separator for sibling links, and it really doesn't work as a
breadcrumb separator for sighted users.
I don't think a list is appropriate markup for breadcrumbs and
prefer the conventional You are in: home products foo
I like to implement my bread-crumbs as an UL and then stylistically
add the 'visual direction' indicator using an image.
For the benefit of Screen-readers and textmode browsers, I add a LI
with the text 'breadcrumb' at the top of the list which is then
hidden using CSS. It's not a perfect solution but it works.
ul
li class=firstBreadcrumb: /
liaMenu Item 1//
liaMenu Item 2//
liaMenu Item 3//
/
ul li{
background:url(directional sliding doors graphic);
}
ul li.first{
background:url(terminating graphic);
text-indent:9000;
overflow:hidden.
}
you can see it at work at:
http://www.minimology.co.uk/gallery/www/
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Re: [WSG] 3 Columns
If the name order is not important, use a UL with LIs styled with float:left; width:29% or similar. This way, It degrades nicely and works on small screens (the elements are coerced into a single column. On 23 Feb 2006, at 11:02, Roberto Santana wrote: Hello! I'm creating a page that has a part with a list of names, I want to represent the list in three columns as this: ++++ | Name 1 | Name 5| Name 9 | | Name 2 | Name 6| Name 10 | | Name 3 | Name 7| Name 11 | | Name 4 | Name 8| Name 12 | ++++ What's the best way to create this list to have a semantic sense? CSS or a table? Thanks! R. Santana ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check - CSS Problem?
Tho I haven't checked it, sounds like the user had Images disabled in IE6. On 20 Feb 2006, at 20:02, Designer wrote: David Nicol wrote: Hello everyone, I would appreciate it very much if you could look at this site: http://www.visitshetland.com/ I have already checked it on several different machines and everything seems to be working fine. Today I received a call from someone saying that the site would not display correctly. They sent me a screenshot, which I have uploaded for you to see: http://www.nbcommunication.com/vs/vs20-02-06 This person was using IE6, on a brand new laptop. Does anyone else get the same problem as this user? Are there any other layout problems that I may not be aware of? I am hopeful that your feedback will enable me to solve this problem. Thank you in advance for your kind assistance. I appreciate it very much. Kind regards David Nicol www.nbcommunication.com It looks fine in IE6 to me! (Win XP). However, increasing the font- size blows it apart very quickly . . . -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor- internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http:// webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
-Original Message- From: Felix Miata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Please tell us which combination(s) of display size and resolution and at which DPI values your description applies to: 13 on 800x600 ... 13 on 1152x864 -- !!! Sadist :) ... 21 on 2048x1536 22 on 2048x1536 Less than 13 or 800x600 Other All of them, because I'm talking about the pixel size of the fonts, not the physical of pixel dimentions of the users' display. In IE, normal size tahoma or verdana will display at X pixels high by by default, regardless of resolution. It is the fact the these fonts look bad at the default PIXEL heights that I was complaining about. And BTW. I'm not including non-standard PPI settings here as they just mess everything up Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
On 17 Feb 2006, at 00:43, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
kvnmcwebn wrote:
What did Felix advise?
He's right as far as he went. There's another serious accessibility
problem he didn't touch on, plus a corollary, which you can see in
the
screenshot. In your CSS is an accessibility issue, as well as one of
manners: 'body {font:75%...'. Browser makers provide users with a
preference adjustment precisely so that they can optimize to the size
that best suits them. Your visitors are not interested in having you
rudely reduce content text size from their preference by some
arbitrary
%. Even though your text is technically resizable, a WinIE visitor
who
already has his text already set to larger or largest will be
unable to
make your text larger or enough larger and thus big enough to read
with
his text resizer widget. Let your visitors be able to use your site
without fighting through this rude and unnecessary basic
usability/accessibility obstacle. See:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html;
It's just a shame that people who pay for web design usually insist
on the smaller text sizes, because historically 99% of web sites in
the wild have tended to serve a slightly reduced font size...
I admit that I'm guilty of this but only because the Windows IE
default font looks UGLY at 100%, Even with ClearType. Perhaps once
everyone has a nice screen-font like Calibri on their Windows
computers, I'll revert to 100%.
The current windows fonts were designed to look best at specific
sizes because of the traditional Aliasing issues. IE and Firefox
default sizes are bigger than this default, meaning that if you want
your text to look nice, then you have to reduce it :(.
Stephen
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
On 15 Feb 2006, at 11:53, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
If I *have* to open a new window, I use this:
onclick=target='_blank' onkeypress=target='_blank'
It is still script dependent, and does work with key operation as
well.
[pony mode]
?¿? This seems a little ridiculous to me. Just because a page/site,
passes the automated W3C test, does not make it standards compliant.
Tricking the validator into thinking that you are serving valid
regexX?HTML[1:5]/regex while breaking it using Javascript to
insert non-standard code completely undermines the whole self-
accreditation process. This is as bad as using your Web server to
present clean versions of your page to the validator while serving
bad pages to your users.
[/pony mode]
Ok that might of been a bit blunt but...
why not use window.open('') as a standard behavior OR just include
the target property in the HTML, I don't think you'll break any
browser by doing this and you will be able to settle with your
conscience that you're not being underhand about using non-standard
HTML.
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[WSG] Mac Update
Heads up, I haven't properly checked it out yet but Mac have released an OS update and the second item in the changelog summary is: - Safari rendering of web pages This may have broken/fixed websites that you are responsible for. Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
On 15 Feb 2006, at 12:28, Lachlan Hunt wrote: What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why they hate them, yet you still somehow believe that users are ok with them. Newsflash: we are users too! Listen to us when we tell you outright that *we hate popup windows!* Do not use them, find a better solution. For that matter, I am a user too and I like popups when used properly. Perhaps your aggressive responses tend to be a bit pony-ish? You can never please everyone, the example you gave of http://juicystudio.com/article/form-help-without-popups.html is not something I prefer over a well implemented popup and therefore, for this issue, using these inline-hidden-help-comments are annoying me, and people like me. Every time you open an unrequested window (assuming my browser wasn't configured to block them completely), that's another window I eventually have to close. That's annoying, especially when I didn't request it. My mouse has a built in back and forward button and when you open a popup, those buttons don't work - there is no close popup button. It takes longer to move my mouse up to the close button than it does to push the back button with my thumb, which is just wasting my time on a tedious task I shouldn't have even been faced with. If you don't like having to move your mouse up to the toolbar of your window when closing them, learn your OSs key combination for closing the active window. (Windows: Alt-F4, Mac OSx Cmd-W) This way, you can improve your productivity. I don't have a 100Mbit connection so I like it when a site opens an external link in a new window, this way I can continue reading the original page while the new site loads-up in the background. Also, during product research / information farming, I can fairly confidently expect most sites I visit to open external links in new windows. This allows me to carry 2 or 3 research threads at one time, It allways irks me when a site doesn't do this and I accidentally close the active window and loose my history. I'm not tying to disagree with the points you made, they are valid, but so are mine, yours isn't the only point of view. So flaming the list to try to get people to bow to your experience is not always helpful. Stephen. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
But I think the best option is to completely disable the target attribute to prevent the author from interfering with your decision and make it yourself, every single time. You cannot possibly rely on the author to make the right decision for you, because every user is different. Superficially, I agree with you, it is better to let the user decide [see also the PDF content-type threads]. However in practice, it is not sensible to assume that a user will be able to configure their browser, or even to make an intelligent decision on which types of links should behave in particular ways.It would be like arguing not to send impoverished farmers a plough, but to send them wood, metal and an angle-grinder to let them optimize the product for their soil. [p.s. I know it's a slightly flawed analogy but I think it gets my point across] Unless every user to your site is a geek, you have to assume that 90% of visitors will not be aware of User Style-sheets or even what a style-sheet(Bed linen made of silk?) is. Interestingly, I have been involved in a similar argument wrt. GIMP development, GIMP is very difficult to use in MS Windows because of all the windows it creates that have to interact with each other. The Die-Hard Unix Hax0rs say that this is correct and the application [Insert relevant application] should leave all the window management up to the window manager, and if the Windows XP window manager isn't good enough, then switch to Linux. The more down-to-earth MS Windows users on the list were arguing that they're stuck with a crappy Window Manager so perhaps the Hax0rs might be a bit more understanding. Perhaps we need browsers with easy settings allowing you to over-ride the site-specific link behaviors, this way, authors could suggest a default action for a link and then people who passionately care about their windows can override it, result; everyone happy. This must be a fairly simple thing to implement, no? IIRC, Firefox already has an 'open all windows as new tab' option somewhere, Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] JKRowling.com and the militia
so I visited the JKRowling site a while ago and was impressed by the design of the new site, easy and fun to use. Later, I read some comments on this site about Lightmaker and the worth of their accessibility methods (or suggested lack thereof) Recently I re-visited the site and had some difficulty getting on to it. I assume that in response to requests from the accessibility party, they have re-designed the site to be more accessible and that is a good thing. However. Before, visiting jkrowling.com immediately brought up the content of the site and the average user could 'get going' immediately. Now, it presents you with an introduction page full of buttons with different languages and accessibility levels. The most prominent button is that for the accessibility-enhanced page. Don't get me wrong, It's GOOD that they are promoting their accessibility mode, but still 90% of users visiting the site will not want this mode, why make it the default option. Is added accessibility for people with disabilities such a good thing if it reduces accessibility for the majority? Stephen. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
That's a major reason why I didn't go to university, you don't learn nuffink(sic. :) ) useful. and have to pay around £10,000 for the privilege Stephen On 13 Feb 2006, at 15:24, Chris Taylor wrote: A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I don't hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in their syllabus: Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be impossible to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, you can get some very sophisticated effects with table tags. (Taken from http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html) Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To what extent can students do it the right way without being penalised from straying from the Official Course Documentation? And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. Chris Taylor www.stillbreathing.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
On 10 Feb 2006, at 19:14, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Stephen Stagg wrote: And how, pray tell, would a screen reader know - based on a series of presentational rules - what the meaning of a made-up tag soup is? The same way that they would with normal HTML, by reading the XML, and the stylesheet and guessing, if an element has the font- weight:bold element, then it should be emboldened. Wrong. Screen readers do not look at the CSS and try to guesstimate what is a heading, what's a paragraph, what's a list, etc. Not wrong actually, Good screen-readers DO read the CSS to work out various things, incuding to see if someting has a display:hidden. I do acknowledge that this is an area that would have to be developed in screen-readers but that does not invalidate the idea. Screen-Reader hints are still presentational devices. Screen readers look at the structure of the document, which is clearly defined as it's standardised in the HTML specification. And they PRESENT it to someone with visual impairment, The presentational properties should be set in the presentational layer I believe (tho haven't checked) that there are a whole load of CSS properties to do with controlling assistive-technologies output. There are aural stylesheets, which only give hints about how to present something aurally. They do not define purpose or role of the elements they refer to, and THAT is what counts. As is said, I wasn't sure about the exact nature of the aural stylesheets. Thanks for the info, Perhaps this is something that could be developed to improve the designers' control over output to screen-readers? no? -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Ok, one last try. My thoughts have little to do with semantics. Semantics are based on standards and languages, and therefore if HTML were dropped, something would HAVE to be introduced to replace it. However, like the hCard format, trying to break the HTML structure to add semantics to an address on a website seems silly, why not define a new, standard, Address DTD. This way any professional will be able to look up the standard for any data-type he wants. If a data-type has not been defined publicly, then his being forced to use a bunch of meaningless tags seems silly. Trying to get amateurs to create semantic based sites is largely futile, whatever standards you use, in whatever industry. In these situations, to a UA, there is no difference between: div class=headingPage title/div div class=asasome text/div div class=paraspan class=firstwordThe/spanquick brown/div and headingPage title/heading asasome text/ada parafirstwordThe/firstwordquick brown/para Except that it is easier for humans to understand. This IS important because the easier markup is to understand, the easier it is to maintain and the more likely it is to be standards-compliant. HTML is primarily a text document markup language, a tiny subset of the total information types available on the internet, with extra bits added on. Why does all information have to be presented in this format? Create a new Document DTD, a webpage DTD with things like Title and meta-tag included and then people who don't adhere to these new standards will find that their sites, by default, don't get listed in search engines. Or that browser functionality (like linking addresses to a user's address book) don't work. This will force them to be standards compliant. Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Why do we need an HTML 5? Can't we dispose of HTML and just use styled XML in the future? It would be one helluva way to enforce standards, and we wouldn't have all this wrangling over exactly which element to use. HTML in itself is not a good example of an XML doctype because the paragraph markup does not lend itself to proper hierarchic layout. the heading tags should be able to be subsets of a paragraph, for example. The focus would then shift to CSS and the different display-types that can be defined for ANY tag. Microformats and Micro-Namespaces could then be used to allow true semantic delivery. I take it this has been suggested before, so what are the arguments / counter-arguments ?? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
How could you know what style to apply to meaningless content?That's what the style-sheet is for. We are relying more and more on the display: element of CSS, why not define a well-thought out and extensible set of display types to replace the default behavior of many current tags. Want to include flash on your site? define a CSS rule:flashmovie{ display:flash;} and then your document reads:flashmovie src=""file://a.c.v/me.swf">file://a.c.v/me.swf" /Hell, even I know what that means :))Effective styling depends on document semanticsWrong, I see the point you are trying to make, but Styling is totally autonomous, It takes pre-defined rules and applies them to a list of tags, the CSS processor in modern browsers shouldn't care WHAT the semantic content of its tags are. div class="h"Foo Bar/div.h { font-size: large; font-weight: bold; }Would you agree that that is a bad idea?No (except the h doesn't provide any clue to the content) , but it seems silly to use a DIV element, which REDUCES semantics, having no meaning to anyone. Rather use, similar to that which you suggest:mydocument paragraph headingThis Heading Belongs to this Para/heading contentblah, blah, /content /paragraph/mydocumentThis is not meaningless, It is more readable than HTML, to a human. And when computers start to need to read websites automatically...A major factor in the development of microformats is that they reuse existing document semantics, where possible. They aren't just about making up new class names and relationship values. No, they re-use existing Standard formats, where possible, not Semantics. 'Semantics' means 'meaning'. Take the hCard format, a sample from the specification reads:span class="tel" span class="type"home/span: span class="value"+1.415.555.1212/span/spanHow in any way does a span element have semantic meaning? Then remove it. A sample from my imaginary XML hCard format reads:tel typehome/type value+1.415.555.1212/value/telNow that begins to have real semantic meaning, and is easy to read for a human. "Micro-Namespaces" is a term you just made up, it means nothing.I DID make it up but NO it is not meaningless, If you take the two parts separately, micro means small(ancient greek, µikros = small), namespace is a defined XML feature. My point is that When we get to the stage of using pure XML, the namespace and the format ideas could merge to allow a hCard namespace to be defined, if the hCard is a micro-format, then the xmlns hCard(or whatever) could also have a micro sticked before it. :)I understand that this is already possible in most modern browsers but it will never be used or properly implemented unless HTML is dropped as a language. Worried about screen-readers? I don't see why, the screen-readers would have to parse the CSS to find clues about how to read the content, but then modern ones already do.
Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Sorry, it's late in England. I'm gonna go to bed now :)How could you know what style to apply to meaningless content?That's what the style-sheet is for. We are relying more and more on the display: element of CSS, why not define a well-thought out and extensible set of display types to replace the default behavior of many current tags. Want to include flash on your site? define a CSS rule:flashmovie{ display:flash;} and then your document reads:flashmovie src=""file://a.c.v/me.swf">file://a.c.v/me.swf" /Hell, even I know what that means :))Effective styling depends on document semanticsWrong, I see the point you are trying to make, but Styling is totally autonomous, It takes pre-defined rules and applies them to a list of tags, the CSS processor in modern browsers shouldn't care WHAT the semantic content of its tags is. div class="h"Foo Bar/div.h { font-size: large; font-weight: bold; }Would you agree that that is a bad idea?No (except the h doesn't provide any clue to the content) , but it seems silly to use a DIV element, which REDUCES semantics, having no meaning to anyone. Rather use, similar to that which you suggest:mydocument paragraph headingThis Heading Belongs to this Para/heading contentblah, blah, /content /paragraph/mydocumentThis is not meaningless, It is more readable than HTML, to a human. It may not have semantic meaning, but who needs semantic meaning.A major factor in the development of microformats is that they reuse existing document semantics, where possible. They aren't just about making up new class names and relationship values. No, they re-use existing Standard formats, where possible, not Semantics. 'Semantics' means 'meaning in the context of a language'. Take the hCard format, a sample from the specification reads:span class="tel" span class="type"home/span: span class="value"+1.415.555.1212/span/spanHow in any way does a span element have semantic meaning? The micro-format adds semantic meaning to the span elements in the example. Why not remove it. A sample from my imaginary XML hCard format reads:tel typehome/type value+1.415.555.1212/value/telNow THAT also to has real semantic meaning in the context of my (imaginary) proposed hCard format, and is easy to read for a human. Oh and it's lighter on bandwidth also. "Micro-Namespaces" is a term you just made up, it means nothing.I DID make it up but NO it is not meaningless, If you take the two parts separately, micro means small(ancient greek, µikros = small), namespace is a defined XML feature. My point is that When we get to the stage of using pure XML, the namespace and the format ideas could merge to allow a hCard namespace to be defined, if the hCard is a micro-format, then the xmlns hCard(or whatever) could also have a micro- stuck before it. :)I understand that this is already possible in most modern browsers but it will never be used or properly implemented unless HTML is dropped as a language. Worried about screen-readers? I don't see why, the screen-readers would have to parse the CSS to find clues about how to read the content, but then modern ones already do. :)Stephen.
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
I would agree with you, it seems as if a definition list should only be used for 'concise' definitions. However, common usage has made it mean any list of key=value pairs. I guess that it is how the majority of people interpret a standard that really defines it. Stephen On 6 Feb 2006, at 10:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan - Original Message - From: Ian Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
You could easily argue that a definition list IS fit for purpose. Take your example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl This definition of the em and strong tags is not a generic definition. It is also not a complete definition of the tags. It is only valid in the context of the tile JAWS XHTML ... It could legitimately be argued that: h2Frank's Detailsh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl Is OK because 100 223 578 is a definition of CID when talking about Frank. If you would write CID=100 223 578 then I think it is ok to assume that there is a definition. Stephen On 6 Feb 2006, at 10:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan - Original Message - From: Ian Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Just wanted to clarify, I didn't say that, I was arguing a completely different point ;). Stephen On 3 Feb 2006, at 21:59, Joshua Street wrote: Yes, but can you use an anchor fragment to link to a point in an Acrobat document? The other thing is why would we even bother with that when we have hypertext? On one site I did recently, the client wanted a PDF brochure with _identical_ information to what was in hypertext included. The PDF brochure in question was some non-standard size, so people couldn't even print it, yet the client wanted it there (probably because they'd paid some designer too much money for it). It's useless content, and it's achieved easier and better with hypertext. Why? I do see PDF's applications (disseminating print documents that universally render the same -- though they don't ALWAYS look the same, but we won't go there), just not as a markup replacement. Felix's link to Alertbox is great, btw... On 2/3/06, Ray Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al... Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
I think you're mistaking your experiences of users for all users. I don't know anyone who uses JAWS, doesn't mean that people don't tho. I (usually) like the way that PDF files tend to open in the browser window. Many people I know also are used to this and it doesn't bother them. You say that users expect the way to return to web content . A pdf online IS web content, you may argue that what you meant was Hypertext content but the 'average' user doesn't think like that. When I am browsing, I'm looking for information, be it in a word document, PDF document or HTML document. The ability for my browser to navigate between these just by using the back/forward/ history options is very useful. Now, I'm not saying that my experience represents the norm, but I don't think that you, as a designer, should try to dictate in which application your data loads. If sometimes a PDF file opens in the browser, other times in a new window, A user will become confused and this is something we should always work to stop. Besides, breaking a delivery mechanism to create a non-standard behavior is hardly a standards based approach. :) Stephen. On 2 Feb 2006, at 21:58, Joshua Street wrote: Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are 'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows, etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating out of it but to close the window, or press Back. Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser window). They're not going to look for the Back button here. Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. Josh On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those font-sizes. YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER
Without wanting to unleash too many ponies, I would be interested to know why using 0(px | em | %) is so much of a standards blunder. I'm sure there some obvious answer but for the life of me, I can't think of one :).If this has already been done to death on the list, please forgive me and email me privately in reply.I shall of course not use units when specifying 0 as a length in future CSS work.Thanks in AdvanceStephen.On 3 Feb 2006, at 16:29, White Ash wrote: Thanks Georg for the fix ~ I must remember that for future designs! That works beautifully. And Russ ~ so that more and more web standards faeries may live, I have converted all 0px's in my code to 0. I do believe White Ash FIX: Re: [WSG] Gaps At The TopGunlaug SørtunThu, 02 Feb 2006 15:32:25 -0800 Adding something like:
div#container,div#banner {padding-top: 1px;}
#navlist {margin-top: 10px;}
h1 {margin-top: -10px; max-width: 400px;}
...shouldn't be too far off.
Those padding-top prevent collapsing margins, and the margins are then
defined to position correctly across browser-land.
Adjust those margins to taste, and check for unwanted
overlapping/breaking when font-resizing is applied.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those font-sizes. YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net
On 2 Feb 2006, at 21:33, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed document should. Page Title (your h1 element) Table of Contents (your ul nav list) Content (content) That is a good ethos when designing for monitor-based applications. However, a book page can typically display 200-400 words comfortably, + title, + headings + page numbers. An A4 report, can achieve similar word densities. However a handheld or mobile browser has a display area, lower resolution AND probably has a whole load of screen estate taken up by the browser controls and gui. Therefore, to expect people to have to scroll past all your navigation elements on each page is not the best thing. It would be worse than printing the table of contents of a report at the top of every page of that report. You would end up with 10 words a page but even then, the eye can travel down a page faster than a mobile can scroll :). Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: DL + DOM = cool FAQ page
Is it just me, or does this example NOT work at all with safari? The technique may be the dog's wotsits but the page is just blank in Safari. Stephen On 1 Feb 2006, at 17:58, Thierry Koblentz wrote: The advantages of this solution: - It uses semantic markup. - It degrades nicely (hidden elements are visible in script-disabled UAs). - DTs do not appear as links without script support. - It does not use inline event attribute (onclick()). - It does not require A elements in the markup. - It is screen-readers friendly. - It is IE Mac compatible. - It relies on one single hook. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/toggle_elements.asp Please report errors/problems/etc.. Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] list's with header text
Sarcasm Alert :) !--[if ! Moral High-Horse Police] or... you could use a definition list: dl dtDays of the Week/dt dd dl dtDay 0/dt ddSunday/dd dtDay 1/dt ddMonday/dd . /dl /dd That way, everyone will know what you mean. ![endif]-- Stephen. On 31 Jan 2006, at 11:09, Martin Heiden wrote: Paul, on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 at 11:39 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: What's wrong with this? hxThe following are the days of the week/hx ol liMonday/li liTuesday/li liWednesday/li /ol regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Should an agent's address really be a definition list?? If you want that sort of semantic pedantry, the markup should be: block tag hxAcme Estate Agents/hx dl dtAddress/dt dd The...Housebr/ Lodge Roa...4DD/dd dtTelephone/dt dd0208 457 4777/dd... /dl /block tag I DO think that definition lists are over used and often misused. They should really only be used for concise definitions. An list of untitled contact details does not constitute a concise definition of an agent. Otherwise, the idea of web data becoming machine-readable is defeated. Stephen On 30 Jan 2006, at 11:48, Martin Heiden wrote: Darren, on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 12:26 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.html You've got some problems in your HTML: 1. with/height attributes of img tags don't accept units. 2. the inputs need name attributes (but I guess you will add these later) You should provide some alt-Text for the images of the properties. A page title would be nice ;-) Maybe you should wrap the ie7 script in a conditional comment for only IE using it. The use of strong in: pImage strong1/strong of strong10/strong/p isn't very semantic IMHO, but substituting it by span doesn't add much value too. For the address I'd use a definition list: dl id=agent dtAcme Estate Agents/dt ddThe White House/dd ddLodge Road/dd ddNW4 4DD/dd ddTel: 0208 457 4777/dd ddFax: 0208 457 4765/dd dda href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/dd /dl instead of: div id=agent h2Acme Estate Agents/h2 pThe White Housebr / Lodge Roadbr / Londonbr / NW4 4DD/p pTel: 0208 457 4777/p pFax: 0208 457 4765/p pa href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/p /div You could also add some classes for defining the microformat. regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels
OR. cut a few semantics corners and make all visitors happy by using a standard nested list approach with [add][edit][delete] as text links after: Even Lynx users will see this: liItemX a href=[add]/anbsp;a/a ulliItem X.Y a href=[add]/anbsp;a/a/li ... ... liItem X.Z.D.E.E.Pa href=[add]/anbsp;a/a/li /ul On 28 Jan 2006, at 23:25, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:16 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Bert Doorn wrote: [ select category ] [ add ] [ edit ] [ delete ] You can have option groups in the select. Example: form action=whatever select name=product option value=Select Product/option optgroup label=Fruits optionApple/option optionOrange/option optionLemon/option /optgroup ... /form The problem is that we are not only allowing to add/edit/delete one level of the hierarchy, but all of them. Imagine it more to be like this: [Add] [Edit] [Delete] Folder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 2 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubSubFolder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubSubFolder 2 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 3 [Add] [Edit] [Delete] Folder 2 Although it's currently impossible with a normal select list, you can instead use radio buttons or checkboxes within nested lists. ol lilabelinput type=radio Fruits/label ol lilabelinput type=radio Appleslabel lilabelinput type=radio Orangeslabel lilabelinput type=radio Lemonlabel /li li.../li /ol Just fill that out with all the necessary attributes and values, then add some submit buttons for add, edit and delete. I have considered this possibility, but to be honest I find it not as user-friendly as the other solution. In particular if the list of items is very long, users will have to tick the radio button and then scroll to the end of the page (or the beginning) to find the button. So I am facing the question: make it user-friendly for the larger audience or make it user-friendly for users of browsers that cannot display style sheets. I am tending towards the first. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac CSS issues
This may not help at all BUT... It looks fine on Safari (Mac OSX 10.4) and it would be very reasonable just to ignore IE 5 for Mac as even Microsoft don't support it. A way of working round the problem is to use server-side (or client side if necessary) to serve a cut-down version of the site to IE.mac (and ie4 and NN) users. Maybe I'm a bad designer/ programmer but I refuse to go out of my way to accommodate IE.mac on the grounds that it is an obsolete pile of cr [connection terminated]... On 27 Jan 2006, at 18:09, Veine Vikberg wrote: Hello; Well Georg came with a suggestion that is working for Windows machines - now this design is close to what it needs to be on Windows IE/Moz/Opera. My issue is now Mac - I have a mac in the office (Strawberry iMac os 8.6 IE 5.1) and on that one all layout is virtually gone with the wind. All id and classes seems to be ignored, and they are thrown all over the place, stretching the page to a three screen horizonal scroll. I am at a loss to why this happens. The page is question is: http://jpfco.com/testdesign/new/ Any help on/off list is GREATLY appreciated. Regards ~Veine Sent via the WebMail system at vikberg.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ASP, PHP and Ruby - oh my!
In my, suitably humble, opinion, PHP 'is a good thing' and so I'm going to keep using it for the foreseeable future. The only thing that'll make me really use RUBY is when people start wanting sites upgraded when they are already using it. This may come across as a bit of a counter-revolutionary stance, but PHP is mature code and is well known to many people. RUBY is largely unsupported by mainstream hosts and not very well known by the masses. Oh and BTW. If anyone wants to pay for me to take a course in Ruby, I'll happily change my arguments :) Stephen On 26 Jan 2006, at 14:49, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: Guys and Gals, There's certainly a mass of hype surrounding Ruby these days. It raises this question for me. I usually still use classic ASP for my server-side stuff, but have begun playing with PHP as well, since ASP is obviously over whether its a good tool or not. Now Ruby is pounding on my door, claiming to be the next best thing. Are many of you already using Ruby? Thus far, I've only seen that it increases the add/update/delete coding speed. If the general feeling among is that this will become the method of choice in the future, perhaps I should come on board If you want to keep this list clean, just email me your thoughts if you like. Thanks, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] weird IE6 doctype switching question
Lachlan Hunt wrote: Marco van Hylckama Vlieg wrote: Question: Is it possible to make IE6 use the broken box model for a PART of the document? No, DOCTYPE switching applies to the whole document, not just parts of the document. The different box model may one day be able to be chosen using the proposed 'box-sizing' property [1] in the CSS3 box model module. Mozilla has some support for it as '-moz-box-sizing'. Although, as noted in the CSS3 draft, 'box-sizing' may actually be dropped in favour of a better solution. This means I have an XHTML 1.0 Strict / Transitional document with a div in it for which the inner content should be rendered with the broken box model, only in IE 6, not Firefox. Your going about trying to solve this the wrong way. Instead of trying to solve the problem by making a browser use intentionally broken behaviour (quirks mode) because it gives the intended result, try and work out the cause of the different rendering and find an alternate method or (as a last resort) use a hack. You may find that your problem is one of the many well documented IE bugs for which many workarounds are readily available. As for quirks mode, you should basically try to forget it even exists as an alternative and never, under any circumstances, attempt to develop a page using it. Use of quirks mode is never a good solution to any problem. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-box-20021024/#the-box-width Unless you're trying to write an example page to demonstrate the different behaviours of different browsers. Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Browser Resolutions
Slightly off-list but important all the same. I traditionally design sites to look good at 800x600 and best at 1024x768. Now, tho, it seems as if users visiting with resolutions of 800x600 are around the 1% margin. Could those of you with access to good stats packages for your sites please tell what the %es of users with different resolutions is. I KNOW that a good site should display well at any resolution BUT when it comes to things like down-sampling images and the like, this sort of info can be very useful. Thanks Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Resolutions
I thought I made my point in the original post. While I agree that sites should work at any resolution, and some (many possibly) people don't browse with browser maximised. What I can't do is supply all the images for a site at 10x10 pixels in case someone using a PDA wants to view the site. What I CAN do is try to make the site presentable at any resolution and optimize the images etc. for certain resolutions. In order to satisfy the majority in this case, I would like to have the figures as a guide. It is also useful to tell clients that What you want won't work becuase only x% of people have the same resolution as you Rather than make up the figures, it is better to have hard data. I AM AWARE of the limitations of using screen-resolution data. But it doesn't completely invalidate the collection of such data. Stephen Lachlan Hunt wrote: Stephen Stagg wrote: Slightly off-list but important all the same. I traditionally design sites to look good at 800x600 and best at 1024x768. Now, tho, it seems as if users visiting with resolutions of 800x600 are around the 1% margin... It is the viewport size that matters, the screen resolution is essentially irrelevant. It is an invalid assumption that everyone surfs with a maximised browser window; or even if it is, that it takes up all the space. The browser may also have a sidebar or anything else which can take up any amount of space. Personally, my screen resolution is 1280x1024, but my browser window is usually around 900x900 - I do not like a browser taking up my whole screen. In fact, that is even narrower than a maximised browser on 1024x768. dd a sidebar to that, which would be roughly 200px wide when open, that leaves less than 700px width for the web site to play with, which is almost half the width of my screen resolution. So please understand that any screen resolution statistics you find will be nothing short of completely useless. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Resolutions
I DON'T DESIGN FIXED WIDTH SITES. -- unless the client really wants it and they have a good reason I don't want to scale images until all major browsers support antialiased or bicubic scaling methods. I don't want to clip images because I believe that correct proportions and good cropping is an important presentational technique. I don't want to read 20 posts from people telling me to use liquid layouts because that's not an issue in this thread I WAS hoping that a couple of kind people might look at their server logs or stats and read off the resolution and % data for me. If no-one can do that or is willing to do it then I don't mind, but I believe that the list does not need another fixed-width vs. liquid debate. Thanks Stephen. Christian Montoya wrote: I think all your problems would be solved if you stopped designing fixed width sites. Or at least most of your problems. I make sites that look fine from 640px to 1280px. I use max-width to keep them from getting too wide. I never have to think twice about what resolution to support. The hard part is dealing with IE, since it doesn't do max-width. Sometimes I give IE a fixed width, and sometimes I use Javascript to force max-width on it. A couple of articles on dealing with large images in liquid layouts: http://www.clagnut.com/sandbox/imagetest/ http://www.michelf.com/weblog/2005/liquid-image/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Resolutions
Jan Brasna wrote: I WAS hoping that a couple of kind people might look at their server logs or stats and read off the resolution and % data for me. I posted link to charts. Not only with resolution (which is mostly irrelevant) but with viewport sizes as well. What more particularly do you need, please? Thank you for that. It was useful, (if also in Czech.:) ). The reason I asked for people to get first-hand data is because it tends to be more reliable. Also, all the stats (like 3 sets) that I've looked at have shown around 1% of people with a resolution of 800x600 or a corresponding view port size. I was hoping for some simple, easy to carry-out verification of this, that's all. Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JK Rowlings and Accessibility
Jared Smith wrote: Felicity Farr wrote: I love the attitude of the big players...provide a text alternative and it's instantly accessible. ...and a direct violation of US Section 508: A text-only page, with equivalent information or functionality, shall be provided to make a web site comply with the provisions of this part, *when compliance cannot be accomplished in any other way*. The content of the text-only page shall be updated whenever the primary page changes. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds to me like using a text-only page as an excuse for otherwise inaccessible content is a violation. Jared ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** I'm no expert, but I thought that Flash WAS inaccessible and therefore when designing a flash-based site, compliance cannot be accomplished in any other way BUT by having a text alternative. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
rant comment=please correct me if I'm wrong about anything Why should Text mode browsers benefit from the ALT property when Graphical agents can't? I understand that this is planned to change in future specifications but Why does the IMG element have an alt property? why not define a label property instead (and longlabel) or caption property. This would make the semantics more readable AND would allow CSS to be non-discriminative. The problem with an ALT prop. is that it stands for 'Alternate Text' this means that, at present, designers are having to go out of their way to cater for disabled people and machine-based readers by adding hidden content, while this is not 'a bad thing', it is not going to encourage people to bother. Also, User-Agents won't display the text because there is a better alternative available. What book/magazine prints pictures without labels or descriptions? If the property name was comment or label, then designers and content managers would see the property as a semantic and presentational benefit. Also, CSS properties could be defined to allow styling of the label alongside the image in graphical browsers as well as in text mode browsers. Therefore people are more aware of the benefits of labeling images, Designers would be encouraged to design according to good publishing practices and (hopefully) disabled people would benefit from more widespread accessibility. /rant BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? Stephen Stagg. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
It depends on who the recipient of the policy doc is. One, very large, contractor we were working with considered MUST to mean SHOULD, and SHOULD to be IF YOU CAN BE RSED. They're government funded so no-one cared. Stephen heretic wrote: I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) One quick comment on this... I always write must in draft policy documents; but the higher-ups change them all to should before the final version. I am told that should is Policy-Speak for must, since it allows for discretion in considered instances. Basically, it means for all intents and purposes, you must not do this on pain of death but there is wiggle room to plead your case if greater evil might occur by following the rule. Personally I'd keep must and let people sort it out for themselves, because you should never suggest the rules are still being followed if they're being broken. But policy speak dictates should. In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber wrote: In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) Except it's not a rule but an aid to correct spelling. you could say I SHOULD be before E EXCEPT where usage dictated otherwise. It seems silly to sty and define something in a rule when there are so many exceptions. Like saying 'every day is a Tuesday except when it's not' is not an indication of a Crazy time system but an indication of a bad rule. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I take it, therefore, that none of your sites use style sheets at all (unnecessary), they all use a serif font for body content(easier to read long para's when in serifs) and that images are only used for visualization aids? Very little of what we do is determined by necessity, otherwise we would still all be farmers. The situation I had where I wanted to control column heights was when designing a fluid layout with image based borders and corners. The only way that I could do it (because of this problem) was to make one border non-image based (ie a 1px border). Stephen Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?
One site that I'm currently coding (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest) uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages. One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of each page which will go into the template. I want the links to be randomly selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show the relevant company logos in an accessible manner. I also, however, want the user to be able to edit an xml file describing the attributes of the various sponsors and to add new ones. Normally I would define the FIR images in a linked x.css file but this is not scriptable. How does the list suggest the tags should be styled in this case? * Inline stylesheets? * Linked .php with content-type of text/css? * style= attribute? Any thoughts?? Thanks Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?
Thx :) Semantically, I thought it better to have like: a href=http://www.xyzcorp.com; ... class=sponsor xyzcorpXYZCorp/a and then stylistically 'overload' this with a nice GIF. Perhaps not? I don't know. Joshua Street wrote: Just use ALT text? Isn't that accessible enough? Or am I not understanding what you're trying to do... Josh p.s. Cool flowed-frame text! On 12/9/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One site that I'm currently coding (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest) uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages. One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of each page which will go into the template. I want the links to be randomly selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show the relevant company logos in an accessible manner. I also, however, want the user to be able to edit an xml file describing the attributes of the various sponsors and to add new ones. Normally I would define the FIR images in a linked x.css file but this is not scriptable. How does the list suggest the tags should be styled in this case? * Inline stylesheets? * Linked .php with content-type of text/css? * style= attribute? Any thoughts?? Thanks Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?
In fact, I chickened out and used the IMG tag solution. however My web host uses PHP as a CGI module, I think, therefore, that it only handles files with .php extension? Stephen Linda Harms wrote: Stephen, Several options actually are available on the PHP side. -- you CAN script the CSS to select the appropriate background image. -- multiple css files, use php to call the appropriate one. I have an example available if you're interested. Linda (breaking away from normal lurk mode) - Original Message - From: Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:12 PM Subject: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What? One site that I'm currently coding (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest) uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages. One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of each page which will go into the template. I want the links to be randomly selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show the relevant company logos in an accessible manner. I also, however, want the user to be able to edit an xml file describing the attributes of the various sponsors and to add new ones. Normally I would define the FIR images in a linked x.css file but this is not scriptable. How does the list suggest the tags should be styled in this case? * Inline stylesheets? * Linked .php with content-type of text/css? * style= attribute? Any thoughts?? Thanks Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date: 12/7/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad. In the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service. Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible. In practice, it means at least passing the WAG 1 test. I don't think that Managers and The-people-who-control-the-money do believe that not following standards will cost them and publicising web standards is still a big issue. Stephen Duckworth, Nigel wrote: Stephen Stagg: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that getting it wrong will cost you? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such we know what's good for you arrogance only harms the standards movement. Regards, -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
I'm no Lawyer but what are the legal ramifications of a user having the wrong year set on the client. If the client's clock were set to 1900 then wouldn't the Copyright notice then be invalid? That is one of the ramifications of not Using PHP or ASP. Stephen Bob Schwartz wrote: Lachlan, I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time. By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place. (For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing). With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy change them. This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure from presentation in the why CSS is good argument. Bob This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id=copy script type=text/javascript var d=new Date(); yr=d.getFullYear(); if (yr!=2003) document.write(copy; +yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p No script (or entity reference) required. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Designer wrote: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). It looks fine on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Sorry, just the map you used. My comment was meant light-heartedly. Your location map looks very like the one that can be got from http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/. As these are crown copyright, I assume that you haven't got an agreement with them to use their data unattributed. Even their website has the text: Image reproduced with permission of Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland below each image. designer wrote: Duh? Stephen? Stephen Stagg wrote: Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Taking things to extremes.
If a search page were to only have one piece of Javascript attached to it (more specifically to the body-onload event) : document.F.Q.focus(); Should this be placed in a separate JavaScript file in order to make it more manageable, or just declared inline? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link to. I think that this analog with the construction world is not really satisfactory as the need for, and potential repercussions of, standards and 'validity' and compliance when building a house is much greater than when just serving data. BEFORE I get shot down in flames for blasphemy, I DO think that web standards are important and I agree that XHTML should not be abused. BUT when a website fails, no-one gets injures (except maybe the mainainter if they have a violent boss :) ). I don't think that any suitable analogy can really be used for this case because the potential benefits of Semantics and good data presentation are immense and unique, but only for large data sources. There is a reason why LaTeX isn't taught to 16 year-olds in schools to do essays with, it may produce nice, accurate, readable layouts but to spend the time and effort trying to beat it into people is counter-productive. Stephen Robert O'Neill wrote: If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ? The thing is though, if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point, by linking them to the validators. Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA etc) we are still being allowed to regulate ourselves and W3C validation seems to be the only option available. So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that ever happen. Rob O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 16:42:46 I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue... The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they like to look at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean something that business owners can't live without. No FUD just a commitment by a segment of our industry that support web standards and that promotes the benefit to business consistently and continually. We need to stop preaching to the choir and build broad awareness that business is getting short changed but design firms who do website design are playing jack of all trades (although I would argue that web firms cannot be mutually exclusive to marketing). We need to create an environment that will make decision makers say to themselves, Where can I get me a standards-based, accessible! site? This whole argument of licensing and regulation is ridiculous because like most regulations there will be segments of the industry that lobby to keep eligibility for the standards to an absolute low or argue that this standard is designed to be protectionist. Why don't we make it that the tag soup chefs have no choice but get on board by creating client demand for clean efficient code. Strictly on the topic of this thread, one point I make to clients is that the code will be easily edited by anyone in the future and will require no special software to modify and therefore cost less to maintain. I don't usually get into these discussions with clients though because my local competitors can't even make good looking tag soup -- so I win be default. That will
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Peter Williams wrote: From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This house is standards compliant? No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry and government agreed star rating scheme. Maybe we need a content vs page weight ratio measurement with star ratings to emphasise the greater efficiency of standards based page/site creation? A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. I'm pretty sure that this is the only thing that has worked in every other industry. People don't listen until the victims (in this case those suffering from inaccessible websites) start pressing lawsuits. This could be a double edged sword, though. What if the client messes up a website you deliver and the user sues both you and the client? Would you like to be responsible for someone else messing up your code? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** In the UK I think you are OK. You have provided an Accessible service/product to the Company but they are delivering an inaccessible service to the End user. The people who might have to worry are Web Hosts and Service Providers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards
I'm trying to use TSWebEditor (www.tswebeditor.tk) at the moment. It has a few annoying features but that is offset by a host of good things (including PHP script debugging - if you need it :) and CSS Editing dialogs) I'm a bit of a fundamentalist when it comes to editors and use SCITE because what it does, it does well. HTH Stephen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lori Cole Sent: 03 December 2005 15:24 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards Lachlan, I was a science major in college and went into biotech which is dominated by men. Your advice to me as a newcomer to just stick with HTML4 rather than to try to learn the right way to use XHTML right off the bat reminded me of the experiences I have had in science that I believe have been sexist. Lots of grown men behave like middle school boys that don't want to share their toys with the girls. Maybe you are wondering why I am not making quilts with the girls instead of trying to construct a web page? I think I will start attending a local user group rather than using this list as I think people behave differently face to face and maybe some women will be there. Thanks for those of you that have commented constructively about IE and tidy. I took an HTML II online course with HWG and they do not even mention text editors exist and would have saved me a lot of time. I am just using Notepad now to write SCRICT code and rather than reaching for a reference book to remember a small detail or rather than running it through a validator, I thought a text editor might help. I can certainly research text editors myself but thought my question would be interesting for this list to address in terms of trying to stick to standards. Lori -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:50 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards Matthew Cruickshank wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: Yes. Why should we attempt to hide the truth from them, especially when they're just starting out and they need to lose/avoid any bad habits and mistakes as quickly as possible. Yours is a fringe and pedantic opinion, and you're being ridiculously harsh on XHTML. I have not been harsh on XHTML at all, I do like XHTML and it does have a lot of benefits when used properly, but if it's going to be used, it really needs to be done right and fully understood for what it is, or it should not be used at all. HTML is already broken beyond all repair because of all the broken implementations and people doing it wrongly without caring about the consequences, and I don't want that to happen with XHTML. Although with the number of people jumping on the XHTML bandwagon just because it's the latest and greatest standard, believing the myths that it's widely supported, usable and that their doing it correctly, when the vast majority of authors clearly aren't, has already done more damage than good. I might add that my fringe and pedantic opinion is based on fact, and that not one valid technical argument has yet been raised in this thread against any of the technical reasons I've posted. Additionally, a significant portion of the replies against me have been little more than judgements about how appropriate it was or was not for me to give such advice to a newcomer; which is not very constructive at all. I'm glad that people have been speaking up so that hopefully Lori will see that it's not so black and white an issue. I'm happy for people to speak up and challenge my views; in fact I encourage it, that's part of what forums like this are for and opinions that can't stand up to such challenges are not worth retaining. I realise the issue is not so black and white for some people, hence why this topic has been and will rehashed again and again on every forum, newsgroup, mailing lists, blog and whatever else around the world for a very long time. So, let it be discussed, and let the newcomers benefit from such discussion, but lets keep the discussion on the issue, rather than attacking another person's views without backing up your own with valid, technical arguments. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for
[WSG] FF1.5 and Web Dev. T/B
Is it just me or does the Disable Images option on the Web Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5? Stephen
RE: Fw: [WSG] Call for Site Check
One other point, on FF 1.5, if I click to the left of the main column, it selects everything and makes things look a bit odd. I don't know if there's anything you can do about it but it's slightly annoying and can be confusing. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 29 November 2005 15:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: Fw: [WSG] Call for Site Check hello, What do you all think about adding yellow as the primary link color? -dont know but I think the new yellow is still to saturated for the secondary links, they are the focal point now. But the addition of a new color does help make the navigation more intuitive. What about the color thats in the search box or something like it for the secondary links? The photo thumb of the river (after you click the clouds) complements the blue really well. Trying samplesof that with an eyedropper might get you a good color aswell. Well thats what i would try anyway -best kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official
I thought that it was an implementation of the SVG standard in Firefox, something that hasn't been present till now. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Pack Sent: 30 November 2005 00:24 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official Can someone explain what the new Canvas element does that SVG doesn't? And why is it a new element instead of just using the Object tag? Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] My Turn for a Site Critique
Looking at your javascript, I don't understand your reasons for using javascript. You are determining the season from the Month and Day. This is constant across the globe (give or take) at any specific time. Therefore can't you use PHP or some other server script tool or even just a manual replacing of the stylesheet periodically to reflect the current season? I don't know whether JS can detect local region settings? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson Sent: 29 November 2005 00:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] My Turn for a Site Critique The problem is, it's always going to be a different season for everyone, it doesn't really matter if its set to the server time or not. The only way to get around it would be to do an IP detect to check what hemisphere the user is in. Maybe in the future.. Thanks for the link about the stylesheet switch, I guess doing it in PHP would also fix it too, I wouldn't have to worry about the user the having Javascript enabled. Samuel Christian Montoya wrote: On 11/28/05, Samuel Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, it's my turn for a site critique: http://www.seasonstravel.com.au/ What I'm worried about: - A new stylesheet loads depending on what season your computer clock is currently in, it should also load a default stylesheet if you don't have javascript enabled, is their any browsers that might have a problem with this? A problem is see is there is a flash before the new stylesheet is loaded. The page was orange/red and then the javascript happened and it was green. There are ways to have Javascript work before the page loads, one example used for another stylesheet modifier is here: http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/unobtrusiveshowhide.php Read through it and see if the technique used there could prevent that flash. Or maybe you could do the stylesheet based on the server time and not my computer's time... that would also solve the problem... I mean, it's snowing here... is the page supposed to be green? Or is it because the weather is nice over there? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] My Turn for a Site Critique
Sorry didn't read the thread properly. If you did do the season check in a PHP script, the hostip.info project may be able to help. A query such as: http://api.hostip.info/country.php?ip=.bbb.ccc.ddd will give you a country code which could then be used to guess the season. Stephen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Stagg Sent: 29 November 2005 00:47 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] My Turn for a Site Critique Looking at your javascript, I don't understand your reasons for using javascript. You are determining the season from the Month and Day. This is constant across the globe (give or take) at any specific time. Therefore can't you use PHP or some other server script tool or even just a manual replacing of the stylesheet periodically to reflect the current season? I don't know whether JS can detect local region settings? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] My Turn for a Site Critique
For what it's worth, I've written a script linked to the hostip.info database and a local dataset of country latitudes to guess the current season. It's very rough and ready and you can check it out here: http://www.minimology.co.uk/geol.php It was quite an interesting little project actually and I think I'll incorporate it into my website as a bit of random eye-candy. If you want the source then I can post it here or e-mail it to you. Stephen. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Call for Site Check
It looks great on FF/Win. If anything, I would suggest that the overall page background be made even darker to bring out the Blue/Orange a bit. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Harris Sent: 29 November 2005 05:09 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Call for Site Check Just re-worked my photography site: www.focusontheclouds.com and wanted to get your opinions. I've strayed into new territory - opting for a slightly-risky, dark background instead of sticking with a classic white background. I'm interested to hear if you think it works... Development has been mostly on the PC, so Mac users, let me know if you run into any obvious problems. Everything should be working good in Firefox and Opera - only thing that is missing in IE is the hover effect for photo lists. Looking forward to your input and thanks for your help! -Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems
Actually, a workaround has been proposed for your specific problem (see earlier in the thread). If Ive read your post correctly, you have ignored common accessibility and layout standards/conventions to create a static design and then want the standards group list to help you work around the ensuing issues and then you get snotty when people point out that youre site doesnt follow standards. Are you posting to the right group?? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 25 November 2005 08:45 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems I could show you a million websites with the background graphic positioned at the bottom of the content. gee, really??? now wayyy!!! I don't recall asking you for your opinon on it and I didn't ask for a site check and unless you are paying the bill for the site then I will listen to the people that are. Why not split that background image up and do like the rest of them do? Because they didnt frickin want that, we didnt want that type of design (which btw~ was the first one i did). We didn't want long scrolling pages, they wanted scrolling within the screen size, is that ok with you master? The page does not fit within my browser. Well its the way they wanted it too fit, is that ok with you or should i have consulted with you first? Sorry to be an ass but I asked a question for a problem not for you to tell the people what they want. I did want to cut the bg up, i wanted to do a lot of things that i couldn't and unless you know the facts don't dictate how it should be done, you aren't paying for it and those issues have all been brought up. Your sites are a perfect example of what they didn't want, yours may make sense to you but it doesn't mean you're right. And yet you have offered nothing yet to help with the question, so why answer? From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 2:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems and if you take the overflow out the content just flows right on out over the bg and right down the page that would beautiful wouldnt it I could show you a million websites with the background graphic positioned at the bottom of the content. Why not split that background image up and do like the rest of them do? and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big long pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so your answer would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether you like it or not. The page does not fit within my browser. And I'm using one of those very popular widescreen laptops that is very short vertically. So it is not a matter of preference. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]
Just to stop this thread from being too one-sided, I disagree. While I do agree that care should be taken, it depends on the content that is being portrayed and the levels of hierarchy involved. On a relatively simple site structure, drop-downs can serve to reduce screen clutter while allowing rapid cross-sectional navigation. In my site, I'm not implementing drop down menus, merely because I couldn't afford the time needed to fit into the design. I'm sure they will come later though. I have, however, added a breadcrumb style list to allow easy navigation back up the hierarchy. Using nested lists to represent site navigation can give more semantic information about a site in one go than having different menus on each page. If the site is simple enough to support it, the navigation menus should represent the whole site while contextual links should be indicated within the body of the page either as a menu or just inline. Stephen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan Sent: 25 November 2005 20:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus] Chris Kennon wrote: I've adopted the philosophy, drop down menus are a surrogate for detailed Information Architecture. Sub-navigation should be introduced on internal pages to navigate sub-sections. Agreed under the assumption that you're not referring to navigating by select box. I only say that because I had a 10 minute debate with someone who was referring to drop-downs when they meant select. :| Menus with drop down features are my idea of hyperhell and the majority of implementations are hyperdeath for screenreaders. IMO, they are often used instead of good contextual links, calls to action and invitations to action within the content proper which deliver much better usability. FWIW I think contextual links are also more 'natural' in the sense that in most cases, links from the actual content are an organic drill-down/across/up and allow users to make a series of logical steps towrds their goals. Too often I've been interested in something mentioned in the content of page but then being _forced_ to use a master drop down menu to find related information becuse there was no link from the content to quickly drill to it. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems
Could you use the Javascript getComputedStyle() function on an interval loop to test for Text-size and if the Text size was too great then the Menu's class could be changed to one with overflow:scroll. (Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wdf-dom/message/3820) Also if you define you DL height in EM (or not at all) then when the text-size is increased, the background will scale to fit. Stephen From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 24 November 2005 23:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems look at my menu http://65.36.226.10/content/catalog.cfm which is fine until you increase the browsers text size to large then thereare some problems such as overflowing and such and if you use overflow it adds scrollbars even when it's technically not overflowing. Anyone have any good suggestions for this? tia dave ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems
Sorry I wasnt clear on the second point. The Menu-Item borders produce the bevelled effect on the menu I believe. Because you have specified a height AND line-height of 20px, the borders are always 20px apart. If the List item height were either auto or specified in EM (say 1.3EM), the menu would look better at different text-sizes because the menu-item borders would fit better. Stephen From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 25 November 2005 00:50 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems I dont know, not sure how to do that but I will look it up. I cant scale the bg to fit because its a one piece fixed size bg thanks From: Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems Could you use the _javascript_ getComputedStyle() function on an interval loop to test for Text-size and if the Text size was too great then the Menu's class could be changed to one with overflow:scroll. (Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wdf-dom/message/3820) Also if you define you DL height in EM (or not at all) then when the text-size is increased, the background will scale to fit. Stephen From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 24 November 2005 23:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems look at my menu http://65.36.226.10/content/catalog.cfm which is fine until you increase the browsers text size to large then thereare some problems such as overflowing and such and if you use overflow it adds scrollbars even when it's technically not overflowing. Anyone have any good suggestions for this? tia dave ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
