Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The argument must be why you are using the XHTML Strict DTD, not about one small component of XHTML Strict. What is interesting though is that HTML 5 is keeping the target attribute: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid8 -- Regards, Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Steve, The other aspect of XHTML Strict DTD, the client won't even know unless I take my time to explain everything but this target stuff is something they will notice if they ask me to open certain links in new window. That's why I need arguments against this. :) XHTML Strict and 1.1 has no target attribute, I do not know why the HTML 5 is keeping it? Steve Olive wrote: On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The argument must be why you are using the XHTML Strict DTD, not about one small component of XHTML Strict. What is interesting though is that HTML 5 is keeping the target attribute: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid8 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank
That has to be just about the nastiest version of all - I click a link and get a new window. Fine, not what I wanted, but there was that other link that looked interesting, I'll just go back to the first window and open a few more links before I read that page. Hey! Where did they all go! Number one rule of interface design - be consistent. In this business that means being consistent with what others are doing === follow web standards === no new windows. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sparber Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:45 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm. What's easy to use when you wind up with a bunch of spawned windows that must be closed one by one? I'm not advocating popup windows, but with a simple script is very easy to open popup windows while reusing the same window. That is, maximum number of windows possible (not counting the main site window) = 1. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That has to be just about the nastiest version of all - I click a link and get a new window. Fine, not what I wanted, but there was that other link that looked interesting, I'll just go back to the first window and open a few more links before I read that page. Hey! Where did they all go! Number one rule of interface design - be consistent. In this business that means being consistent with what others are doing === follow web standards === no new windows. Mike As someone said last week, the original idea of target was for use in framesets. SACRILEGE ALERT! If you have a complex site which involves lots of page swapping, there is still nothing to beat frames for simplicity, ease of navigation etc. Users simply love them! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
frames for simplicity, ease of navigation ?! for u i think!! u cant just think that's right just because u do it's easy for u... On 25/07/07, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That has to be just about the nastiest version of all - I click a link and get a new window. Fine, not what I wanted, but there was that other link that looked interesting, I'll just go back to the first window and open a few more links before I read that page. Hey! Where did they all go! Number one rule of interface design - be consistent. In this business that means being consistent with what others are doing === follow web standards === no new windows. Mike As someone said last week, the original idea of target was for use in framesets. SACRILEGE ALERT! If you have a complex site which involves lots of page swapping, there is still nothing to beat frames for simplicity, ease of navigation etc. Users simply love them! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Make it simple for the people -- http://www.artideias.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
I'm not sure who wrote the below, but I'm hoping it was a sarcastic comment and not someone's real impression of real users. I've never met a user who even liked frames, and that includes me. Also, perhaps I missed a thread, but I've wondering if the increasing use of tabs has overcome any new window reluctance. I have FF set to open new windows in tabs and it looks like IE 7 does the same. Is that correct? Christie Mason .. SACRILEGE ALERT! If you have a complex site which involves lots of page swapping, there is still nothing to beat frames for simplicity, ease of navigation etc. Users simply love them! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
hey steve, without going into pros and cons on the target attribute, roger johansson has an interesting article on the subject with a javascript solution the degrades to opening in the same window if java is turned off or pop ups blocked. some clients want what they want and won't be dissuaded. hope this helps http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/ opening_new_windows_with_javascript_version_12/ sorry about the top posting rgds, ron On Jul 25, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Ryan Lin wrote: Steve, The other aspect of XHTML Strict DTD, the client won't even know unless I take my time to explain everything but this target stuff is something they will notice if they ask me to open certain links in new window. That's why I need arguments against this. :) XHTML Strict and 1.1 has no target attribute, I do not know why the HTML 5 is keeping it? Steve Olive wrote: On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The argument must be why you are using the XHTML Strict DTD, not about one small component of XHTML Strict. What is interesting though is that HTML 5 is keeping the target attribute: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid8 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Using target=_blank
Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The best non-technical argument I can think of is that this approach breaks the back button. Jakob Nielson argues against doing this over and over again. Opening a new window, particularly if the look and feel are similar, can be very confusing to your site visitors. -Tim -- Tim Offenstein *** College of Applied Health Sciences *** (217) 244-2700 CITES Departmental Services Web Specialist *** www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing, why can't you use them to convince your clients? Just askin' :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) Hassan Schroeder wrote: Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing, why can't you use them to convince your clients? Just askin' :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Users can choose to open a new window or tab if they want to (though many will need to be taught this). If the choice is made for them by implementing the target attribute, the power of choice and preference is taken from them and it's irretrievable. Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control widget. My two cents. Cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: Ryan Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) Hassan Schroeder wrote: Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing, why can't you use them to convince your clients? Just askin' :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank
How about asking the client if they want a 'modern' web site or an old-fashioned one? Assuming they ask for the former, then inform them that it is not possible to have pop-up windows of any kind. Also mention pop-up blockers and ask if they want to be 'that kind of site' Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Lin Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:21 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control widget. Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). Now if the link is in my own website, then of course I prefer them to be in the same window. I co not believe you have to TEACH a potential consumer/buyer to use your site. It should have a natural flow and be easy to use. Thanks best, Jim Barricks * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Barricks Insurance Services 13900 NW Passage #302, Marina Del Rey, CA 90292 Phone: (310) 827-7286 | Fax: (310) 827-0256 Toll-Free 1-877-Look4Life (1-877-566-5454) http://www.barricksinsurance.com | CA License 0383850 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming WOW -- What a Ride! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). That's why you have the option to shift + click to open in a new window :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank
I agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control widget. Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). Now if the link is in my own website, then of course I prefer them to be in the same window. I co not believe you have to TEACH a potential consumer/buyer to use your site. It should have a natural flow and be easy to use. Thanks best, Jim Barricks * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Barricks Insurance Services 13900 NW Passage #302, Marina Del Rey, CA 90292 Phone: (310) 827-7286 | Fax: (310) 827-0256 Toll-Free 1-877-Look4Life (1-877-566-5454) http://www.barricksinsurance.com | CA License 0383850 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming WOW -- What a Ride! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). That makes no sense to me. I have many sites that have links which open new windows but they all refer to pages on the same website. Without javascript they open in the same window and with javascript they open in a pop-up window. Just about everyone I deal with (except folks into web standards) expect to have pop-up windows but even then one of my clients was double clicking the links on his own website and wondering why they weren't working. Of course, he'd brought the main window back into focus. That threw me for a little while. My pop-up windows are designed to be viewed then closed so I don't expect anyone to wonder why the back button doesn't work. But if I send a visitor to another website and selfishly keep mine open in the parent window I've instantly dismissed the back button as a useful tool. I am aware of many users (who are fairly ignorant of the ins and outs of web browsers and think the Google toolbar is the address bar) who find the back button just about the most useful and intuitive tool on their browser. What you're suggesting is contrary to the spirit of the WWW. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
On Jul 24, 2007, at 1:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget to come back? I don't think so. If you're looking for a specific item, you're likely to be comparison shopping and perfectly capable of remembering which store has what you want and finding your own way back. If you're just browsing, then you'll remember stores that offer a pleasant experience - friendly and helpful staff, selection and quality of merchandise and ambiance - and will probably go back, even eventually mke a purchse, perhaps become a regular customer. If the experience is unpleasant - heavy handed sales techniques, poor quality, dingy premeises - you're equally likely to remember, never to return... Probably the two most insulting customer relations postures are coercion and insulting the customer's intelligence. Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited back. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:19:21 -0400 (EDT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control widget. Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). Now if the link is in my own website, then of course I prefer them to be in the same window. I co not believe you have to TEACH a potential consumer/buyer to use your site. It should have a natural flow and be easy to use. Hmm. What's easy to use when you wind up with a bunch of spawned windows that must be closed one by one? What's easy about watching out for warnings from my pop-up blocker that I'm trying to open a new window? What's easy about new windows compared to the convenience of tabbed browsing? What's wrong with indicating external links in some way? Why not add a short note to your page: right-click on a link to open a new tab or window? Just asking. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited back. AndrewAndrew...if I thought that way I would have to go out of business next week. Those are high sounding ideals but in the real world you only have their attention for a short while. As a business who receives over 5000 online visitors per day, I try to hold their attention and draw them back to purchase my products. I offer them some outside links for fun but I never forget I have that site up for business purposes. I do have respect for my visitors or I could not have been in business for over 40 years. Of course here I am speaking as a businessman 1st and web designer 2nd. I do believe we are, and probably will continue, to look at this from different viewpoints. That is why we ask for opinions in this forum. Thanks & best, Jim Barricks * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Barricks Insurance Services 13900 NW Passage #302, Marina Del Rey, CA 90292 Phone: (310) 827-7286 | Fax: (310) 827-0256 Toll-Free 1-877-Look4Life (1-877-566-5454) http://www.barricksinsurance.com | CA License 0383850 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "WOW -- What a Ride!" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Firstly I have no argument for you to give your customer. Having a new window is not like having windows pop up automatically. If there is a requirement for the content to be displayed in a new window then why use a different doc type for that one page? Now when I mention requirement' I mean for a legitimate reason other than advertisements and the like. Say for example the new window when banking or a tutorial movie that does not need to take up the entire browser real estate.. I don't believe they should be used to own or contain the visitor. Your content should be enough to keep them there as long as they feel they need to be there. If your stats are showing that they are leaving soon after arriving then either your content is not what they were expecting or needed or it is not up to the standard your peers are offering. And as for the Jakob Nielson argument I, for one, have never subscribed to that point of view. AF Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Links to other websites that are opened in a separate window from my websites using target=_blank don't go to competitors' websites. They are simply informational. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Andrew Maben Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank On Jul 24, 2007, at 1:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget to come back? I don't think so. If you're looking for a specific item, you're likely to be comparison shopping and perfectly capable of remembering which store has what you want and finding your own way back. If you're just browsing, then you'll remember stores that offer a pleasant experience - friendly and helpful staff, selection and quality of merchandise and ambiance - and will probably go back, even eventually mke a purchse, perhaps become a regular customer. If the experience is unpleasant - heavy handed sales techniques, poor quality, dingy premeises - you're equally likely to remember, never to return... Probably the two most insulting customer relations postures are coercion and insulting the customer's intelligence. Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited back. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.com/ http://www.andrewmaben.net mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
On Tue, July 24, 2007 6:19 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm the one they came to the dance with). If yours is the site they want, they will come back by using the back button. If they are going somewhere else never to return, there's every likelihood it is because your site was not precisely what they were looking for. Be glad you were able to help by offering them a useful link, and leave them to go their own way. There has never been one scrap of research published demonstrating any usability or business benefit from opening links in a new window to stop users wandering away from our site. However there has been plenty of uasability research showing that many people find it irritating and/or confusing, and that it is a hindrance for those using assistive technologies such as screen readers, or those who have mild cognitive impairment (such as an absent-minded elderly person). If there is any published research demonstrating a justifiable business case for irritating, confusing and hindering your customers as they go about their day, I would be fascinated to see it. But consider how annoying it is to be followed about by a pushy salesperson, and ask yourself if you are right to believe that acting in such a manner towards your visitors is an acceptable thing to do. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
I used to work for a web development company who designed a website for a large homebuilder. At the bottom of the home page, we had a link to our website, i.e. Site designed by ourCompany. We did not use target=_blank. When our homebuilder customer clicked on our link and found themselves in our website development website, and then exited our website with the X and found they were no longer in their website, they immediately told us to change that. I think it makes sense to ask customers first and foremost, who are they building website for: themselves or their customers. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Wow, that's very well said, especially your clarification of the relationship dynamics between the website and the visitor. Thanks, Dave Andrew Maben wrote: If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget to come back? I don't think so. If you're looking for a specific item, you're likely to be comparison shopping and perfectly capable of remembering which store has what you want and finding your own way back. If you're just browsing, then you'll remember stores that offer a pleasant experience - friendly and helpful staff, selection and quality of merchandise and ambiance - and will probably go back, even eventually mke a purchse, perhaps become a regular customer. If the experience is unpleasant - heavy handed sales techniques, poor quality, dingy premeises - you're equally likely to remember, never to return... Probably the two most insulting customer relations postures are coercion and insulting the customer's intelligence. Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited back. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/net [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] /In a well designed user interface, the user should not need //instructions./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane == Egressive Ltd == [EMAIL PROTECTED] == +64 21 229 8147 +64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = no software patents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm. What's easy to use when you wind up with a bunch of spawned windows that must be closed one by one? I'm not advocating popup windows, but with a simple script is very easy to open popup windows while reusing the same window. That is, maximum number of windows possible (not counting the main site window) = 1. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
visitor -- invitor -- was: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Andrew Maben schreef: Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited back. !--somewhat offtopic-- This sounds a bit too hippie for me, and in the end it's just all the same. Whether the visitor visits your stand/shop or the invitor invites you to send your brochure to her home, you have to make sure that her platform and your website fit. Either way, you have to pay respect for those who show their interest and in the end you hope that you'll meet again. No matter who's visiting who. I prefer the visitor metaphor though, as it fits better to websites that are not shops and such, but more like encyclopedias. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Unless im mistaken the original question was asking about some ideas to sell strict DTD to the client (which means no target=blank code) and not whether users/ designers prefer to have windows open in seperate windows. That discussion was last week, so discuss in that. about the original question, this is a good question. We as designers know why you do it like that but the clients dont and it is our job to explain the technical jargon into simple language for the client, this is usually the hardest thing about our job. The best two ways I describe this 'problem', is one: the back button is one of the most used buttons and you will confuse the user and they wont come back. two: let the user decide how they browse and use your website, its about them. I know these have already been discussed :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/07/2007 9:49:12 pm Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts. So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? That depends on the point you're trying to argue. Are you trying to argue in favour of using javascript instead of target= to get a new window, or against the use of new windows in general? For the latter, there are plenty of arguments against using popups and I suggest you search the archives. In particular, I know I have personally refuted ever single argument for popups in the past and don't particularly feel like repeating that again. If, however, you just want to use JS to sneak the popup past the validator, then I think you're wasting your time. If you're using popups, then getting approval from the validator is the least of your worries. There are a wide variety of JS methods you can use to create popups, including these and their variations: 1. Using JS to add target attributes to links 2. a href=... onclick=window.open(this.href);return false; 3. Using unobtrusive JS to attach event handlers to links, which call window.open() when activated. Depending on the specific method used, using JS to create popups can cause numerous problems. Of those, #1 is just hiding the target attribute from the validator and basically misses the whole point of why the target attribute was forbidden in the Strict DTD. However, compared with the other 2 alternatives, it is the lesser evil. Using the target attribute (either directly in the markup or adding it with script) is a lot more user friendly than window.open(). Firstly, it is significantly easier for a user to configure their browser to ignore target attributes, than it is to override window.open(). (Personally, I do both, but disabling window.open() has some unfortunate side effects on some sites). The target attribute also allows the browser to notify the user that it will open a new window. Safari, for example, tells the user in the status bar when they hover over the link, and there are various other methods available for other browsers. So the question really comes down to how important validation is to you and how much effort you're willing to put in to get the tick of approval. Although I don't recommend popups if you can avoid them, if you must use them, I recommend just using the target attribute in the markup or, if the validator's tick of approval is really that important, you can accept the fact that you're just lying to it, and if you want to put in the extra effort, then add the target attributes using script. I oppose any method that makes use of window.open(). -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
