Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:04:52 +0100, Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com wrote: If I may... if you're happy with your web experience in IE6, then you need do nothing IMHO. Eventually, and I imagine IE9 will speed this up, developers are going to stop giving as much care to IE6 as they do now - if they do at all. Your web experience in IE6 will begin to dwindle to text-only pages. Sure, the info is there and If that's all you want, you'll be fine. ;-) No, I never said I was happy with the IE 6 situation, I use it to the absolute minimum, and never browse with it, or indeed with IE 7 or IE 8. The whole point of my comment was that too many people think this is all going to be fixed with the advent of IE 9. I fear that it is just the opposite. Many users are 'locked' to IE 6 because of Operating System specifications, do you think that IE 9 being locked to only Vista and Win 7 users is going to ease this problem. My point was that with around 64% of the Windows user base still using XP, a far bigger problem is about to land on our desk. At minimum an XP user must buy a new operating system to have access to IE 9, and in many cases that upgrade will require a new higher spec system to run on. The 'corporate' world does not appear to have embraced Vista or Win 7 and it could be a considerable time before they do, given the current financial climate the small businesses that I have spoken too will extend the life of their systems as far as possible. 'Domestic' users are feeling the pinch just as much. Anyone who has recently bought a new machine will probably have little trouble when IE 9 is released, but consider the costs involved for a user with an older low spec machine. New system, new operating system, and in some cases a need to upgrade other software to match the new system can run to quite a sum of cash. Can we reasonably expect this expenditure purely to have the functions that IE 9 will bring, and what exactly are those so essential functions. Perhaps if they were so essential, the corporate world would have been the first to head toward system upgrades. The overriding problem is not really the browser itself, it is the fact that IE is so tightly bundled, and locked into the Operating System. I am well aware of the problems of keeping IE 6 happy, IE 7 is not a great lot better, but until the operating systems themselves have truly gone extinct, those browsers are still going to be around. Unless authors and businesses, particularly eCommerce sites, consciously make the decision to exclude an unknown chunk of their potential market we will soon have another member of the IE family to deal with. We will never 'kill' IE 6 by ignoring and potentially alienating its user base, only if Microsoft take the browser out of the operating system and produce a competitive stand alone browser will we have a chance to emerge from the whole IE mess. Were a personal computer only a tool for browsing the internet, we 'might' be justified in applying pressure to users to upgrade their system, but in the real world a PC has many wider uses, possibly much more important to the individual user. Should we continue to try and communicate with those users, even if it means presenting the information in much simpler form, or should we be responsible for alienating and denigrating those users and potential buyers of our information/product. Duncan (sent from my ageing, low spec machine using Opera 10.54) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
You make many good points. I can't really argue with them. However, what i've been seeing is that many devs are tired of jumping through the hoops to deliver IE6-7 a similar experience as FF or Safari, and with the many new developments in front-end technologies that currently do not, and most likely never will, work in those browsers, IE6-7 and even 8 users will begin to see a less rich experience. THose browsers may never completely disappear. And in the installations where they are the only browser that will run proprietary applications, they will stay to do that job. But as you pointed out in your signature below, there are other choices that CAN run on the same machine as IE6. The devs I follow from my little window on the world are looking to the future. IE6 has held web development back long enough - at least from a front end perspective. I for one don't relish the thought of dealing with *4* versions of IE. I am making a push at my office to drop the 'pixel-perfect everywhere' designer mentality and embrace concepts like progressive enhancement. Deliver a usable base experience for those who can't enjoy the 'full monty', but don't burden the pages, and therefore all users, with crud for the dwindling few users whose browser needs crutches, walkers, wheelchairs and life-support. Again, you're not wrong. All your points are valid and have been said before with equal validity. I'm just giving a counter point of view here, and I'm sure you've heard mine before as well. :-) The 'corporate' world does not appear to have embraced Vista or Win 7 and it could be a considerable time before they do, given the current financial climate the small businesses that I have spoken too will extend the life of their systems as far as possible. 'Domestic' users are feeling the pinch just as much. [snip] Duncan (sent from my ageing, low spec machine using Opera 10.54) -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
at what point will even microsoft get tired of the stench and encourage ppl to drop IE 6 and move on to a later browser? I know they'd love to control the web, but they don't and the bad reputation from always being the problem browser company must be getting old by now. zc *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On 14 May I received this from MS as part of a mass mail-out Subject You wouldn't drink nine year old milk The internet is a lot more advanced now. So is Internet Explorer 8. When Internet Explorer 6 was launched in 2001... ... To keep yourself safe, don't use an out-of-date browser. So yes, I'm guessing even Microsoft is tired of the stench! -- From: zapcat zap...@speakeasy.net Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] at what point will even microsoft get tired of the stench and encourage ppl to drop IE 6 and move on to a later browser? I know they'd love to control the web, but they don't and the bad reputation from always being the problem browser company must be getting old by now. zc *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Sam Sherlock wrote: its clean M$ is in cahoots with hardware vendors seeking to push the consumer into upgrading Yeah, and tho I'm a Mac user, that has long irked me...I hope that, in this economy, the market really spanks m$ for that behavior, and others who engage in it. when you are worried about bills, your job, your future, you don't need to be told that you'll be left swinging in the breeze if you fail to purchase the prescribed upgrades. shameful, that... zc *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Kill this thread: RE: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
I think it's time for this thread to die. Ted From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of zapcat Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Sam Sherlock wrote: its clean M$ is in cahoots with hardware vendors seeking to push the consumer into upgrading Yeah, and tho I'm a Mac user, that has long irked me...I hope that, in this economy, the market really spanks m$ for that behavior, and others who engage in it. when you are worried about bills, your job, your future, you don't need to be told that you'll be left swinging in the breeze if you fail to purchase the prescribed upgrades. shameful, that... zc *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
If I may... if you're happy with your web experience in IE6, then you need do nothing IMHO. Eventually, and I imagine IE9 will speed this up, developers are going to stop giving as much care to IE6 as they do now - if they do at all. Your web experience in IE6 will begin to dwindle to text-only pages. Sure, the info is there and If that's all you want, you'll be fine. ;-) Depending on the complexity, a lot of extra work is done to give IE6 users a similar experience to a more capable browser. It is where I work. Extra work may = extra money paid by the client or eaten by the dev. My point is that issues with IE6 are not JUST about bells and whistles, but the very page structure itself. I've seen a number of web pages already that serve unstyled pages to IE6 because it's most likely just easier and more cost effective. Sure, experienced devs know how to avoid IE6 pitfalls, and have gotten good at it. But there comes a time where IE6 does in fact hold back progress, and it's going to start to lose that kind of stranglehold on web development. My 2¢... keep the change. Ed, This is not aimed as a personal comment, just my general thoughts about browsers. You are only seeing this from a 'Browser' point of view, what about the numerous people who have an elderly system that is not even capable of running something like IE 8. I still use 3 P3 machines with Win 2000, I can't go above IE 6 without upgrading the OS. XP will run on a P3 machine, but for sure neither Vista nor Win 7 will work. I can no longer buy a new copy of XP, therefore to upgrade my browser I would have to buy a new system. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
I have stats from a few websites which show a similar picture: Financial services site (5800 visitors over the last couple of months): Internet Explorer 80.12% Firefox9.52% Safari 5.71% Chrome 3.52% Mozilla0.34% Opera 0.29% And for IE: 8.060.43% 7.027.03% 6.012.55% An e-commerce site (just over 3000 visitors in the last month): Internet Explorer 67.42% Firefox20.42% Safari 5.22% Chrome 4.50% Opera 1.44% For which IE: 8.060.58% 7.024.95% 6.014.47% However a small blogging site (4000 visitors over the last month) shows very different results: Firefox49.42% Internet Explorer 21.60% Chrome 10.66% Safari 7.51% Opera 6.96% Mozilla3.76% Of which IE: 8.059.04% 7.026.37% 6.014.59% So I'd say for most mainstream commercial sites, IE6 is definitely still a consideration. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Sorry Andy, Given the competitive nature that exists between the large UK retailers I feel professionally uncomfortable releasing such data. That's why actual numbers were replaced with percentages. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart Sent: 11 June 2010 13:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] Mike, Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%. By mentioning shoppers I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system using an XP standard operating environment or people using older computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology. Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ? Thanks, Andy On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. Internet explorer only: IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% In general: IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Hi everyone, For me the IE6 issue is to a degree self perpetuating. We all do our best to support IE6 and provide an experience which is as little degraded as possible, and in doing that very thing, we give IE6 users no reason to upgrade. If everyone started not to ignore ie6, but to give them a degraded experience, and advise the user what they are missing out on, perhaps these users would start have have more of a reason to upgrade. Ed On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.comwrote: Sorry Andy, Given the competitive nature that exists between the large UK retailers I feel professionally uncomfortable releasing such data. That's why actual numbers were replaced with percentages. Mike *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Stewart *Sent:* 11 June 2010 13:16 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] Mike, Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%. By mentioning shoppers I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system using an XP standard operating environment or people using older computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology. Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ? Thanks, Andy On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. *Internet explorer only:* IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% *In general:* IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ -- This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
A good point. I have started tracking IE6 users down on an individual basis, going to their houses and doing a forced upgrade. It is labour intensive, but it gets results! ;) Russ IE swat team On 14/06/2010, at 11:31 PM, Edward Lynn wrote: Hi everyone, For me the IE6 issue is to a degree self perpetuating. We all do our best to support IE6 and provide an experience which is as little degraded as possible, and in doing that very thing, we give IE6 users no reason to upgrade. If everyone started not to ignore ie6, but to give them a degraded experience, and advise the user what they are missing out on, perhaps these users would start have have more of a reason to upgrade. Ed *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Ed, I am kind of with you but we have to remember the users may not be making those decisions, their IT dept might. Often the argument is 'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6' or 'we can't support more than one browser it costs too much to train people'. Well the later is rubbish IMHO but the former is a real issue however why not just have IE6 for those, usually internal, systems and another modern browser for general use? Having worked in big organisations with heavy control on the desktop I can see the trap they get caught in however it is not that difficult to get out of it. No they can't have IE6 and IE8 (please no one tell them how they CAN!!!) but then they can have FF, Safari, Opera, Chrome. As a company pick one and add it as part of the standard controlled desktop. Easy. Isn't it? Of course there are those who will say, 'what? there are OTHER browsers?' or 'what's a browser?' That's an industry education project in itself. Steve. On 14 Jun 2010, at 14:31, Edward Lynn wrote: Hi everyone, For me the IE6 issue is to a degree self perpetuating. We all do our best to support IE6 and provide an experience which is as little degraded as possible, and in doing that very thing, we give IE6 users no reason to upgrade. If everyone started not to ignore ie6, but to give them a degraded experience, and advise the user what they are missing out on, perhaps these users would start have have more of a reason to upgrade. Ed On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Sorry Andy, Given the competitive nature that exists between the large UK retailers I feel professionally uncomfortable releasing such data. That's why actual numbers were replaced with percentages. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart Sent: 11 June 2010 13:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] Mike, Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%. By mentioning shoppers I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system using an XP standard operating environment or people using older computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology. Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ? Thanks, Andy On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. Internet explorer only: IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% In general: IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
It's not dinasaur developers. It's systems that were never intended to have the lifespan they have. The web was a very different place a decade ago. See I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that. Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jun 2010, at 16:34, Sam Sherlock sam.sherl...@gmail.com wrote: That's an industry education project in itself. indeed it is and Microsoft was forced to inform windows users of the choice of browsers a little while ago BBC Click reported that one XP user worried that this was the result of malware installed on his machine. Often users ignore system messages anyway there are a few things at play here with these ie dinosaurs The industry is still quite young and its users are not that knowledgeable of choices and whats to be gained Humans are reluctant to make changes even when the offer is free of charge - humans fear change; change requires effort on behalf of the user 'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6' surely rely upon dinosaur users exist in dinosaur environments - these systems are created by retro thinking developers who still despite all the evidence to contrary think that IE browsers have the jump on other browsers or feel it more important for the system to be consistently abysmal across browsers rather than acceptable in IE6/7 and better in ie8 and vastly better in everything else. Ninja squads need to invade the premisses of ie6 users and install something better! using ie should be considered a health safety issue http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/ - S On 14 June 2010 14:46, Stephen Gibbings st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Well I can't mention who I am referring to in a public discussion group but I know of more than a few who insist that ie has it right and are stubborn on this beyond all reason. I recall what things were like ten years ago - 12 years ago I have the same mindset but then my eyes were opened - I too have a good memory :) dinosaur developers do very much live in our times; as do systems with a lifespan that far exceed what they were intended for One such dd that I refer to created a CMS, impressive in its elegance too, but it focused on ie use only to the extent that it only worked in IE - the very same could have been achieved in better browsers and would have been all the better for it too consistent abysmal performance rather than graded browser support - I know which I prefer I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that. 25 years ago I was using Acorn Eletron playing Killer Gorilla from tape - S On 14 June 2010 16:59, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.ukwrote: It's not dinasaur developers. It's systems that were never intended to have the lifespan they have. The web was a very different place a decade ago. See I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that. Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jun 2010, at 16:34, Sam Sherlock sam.sherl...@gmail.com wrote: That's an industry education project in itself. indeed it is and Microsoft was forced to inform windows users of the choice of browsers a little while ago BBC Click reported that one XP user worried that this was the result of malware installed on his machine. Often users ignore system messages anyway there are a few things at play here with these ie dinosaurs 1. The industry is still quite young and its users are not that knowledgeable of choices and whats to be gained 2. Humans are reluctant to make changes even when the offer is free of charge - humans fear change; change requires effort on behalf of the user 'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6' surely *rely upon *dinosaur users exist in dinosaur environments - these systems are created by retro thinking developers who still despite all the evidence to contrary think that IE browsers have the jump on other browsers or feel it more important for the system to be consistently abysmal across browsers rather than acceptable in IE6/7 and better in ie8 and vastly better in everything else. Ninja squads need to invade the premisses of ie6 users and install something better! using ie should be considered a health safety issue http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/ - S On 14 June 2010 14:46, Stephen Gibbings st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:31:03 +0100, Edward Lynn edward.l...@randluk.co.uk wrote: Hi everyone, For me the IE6 issue is to a degree self perpetuating. We all do our best to support IE6 and provide an experience which is as little degraded as possible, and in doing that very thing, we give IE6 users no reason to upgrade. If everyone started not to ignore ie6, but to give them a degraded experience, and advise the user what they are missing out on, perhaps these users would start have have more of a reason to upgrade. Ed Ed, This is not aimed as a personal comment, just my general thoughts about browsers. You are only seeing this from a 'Browser' point of view, what about the numerous people who have an elderly system that is not even capable of running something like IE 8. I still use 3 P3 machines with Win 2000, I can't go above IE 6 without upgrading the OS. XP will run on a P3 machine, but for sure neither Vista nor Win 7 will work. I can no longer buy a new copy of XP, therefore to upgrade my browser I would have to buy a new system. If my systems will cope with all the other major browsers, is seeing bells and whistles in IE a reason to spend large sums of cash. Not to mention the environmental aspect of throwing away solidly working machines just for the sake of a browser. The situation is soon to become even more complex, Microsoft will only release IE 9 for Vista and above. Somewhere it was reported that XP still accounts for around 64% of the Windows user base. A real browser from Microsoft could solve all the problems, but it would need to be unbundled from the operating system and have as wide a reach as say FireFox and Opera for system requirements. I have Win 7 capable machines, but why should I need to buy new OS just for the sake of a browser, those machines perform every function that I need in all other respects. Just what are all the wondrous features that an IE 6 user is missing out on, how essential are they to the function of dissemination of information. What happens as the instances of bandwidth capping become more widespread. Much of what we are fed these days is 'bloat', from the operating systems to web ads and more. I started with a Sinclair ZX81 with a massive 1Kilobyte of memory, we've moved forward a long way, but is it all for the better? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Mike I totally understand that you don't want to publicise sensitive information, but I fear that you may have misunderstood my question - I wasn't asking for £ values. My question was what percentage of your revenue comes from IE6 users? Would it be fair to assume that it is much less than the 9.64% of traffic that comes from IE6? I am involved in brochure-style websites but I would imagine percentage of revenue is very important metric for e-commerce sites, but people only ever seem to discuss visitors/page-views etc. Thanks, Andy On 14 Jun 2010, at 22:45, Foskett, Mike wrote: Sorry Andy, Given the competitive nature that exists between the large UK retailers I feel professionally uncomfortable releasing such data. That's why actual numbers were replaced with percentages. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart Sent: 11 June 2010 13:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] Mike, Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%. By mentioning shoppers I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system using an XP standard operating environment or people using older computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology. Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ? Thanks, Andy On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. Internet explorer only: IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% In general: IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Any bets we'll still be using HTML5 in 2018? On Sat, June 12, 2010 4:16 pm, Sam Sherlock wrote: Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? in a ie browser without any fudging? my initial response was only if Google are in position to take over Microsoft before that date, but... http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/05/19/another-follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx ie9: A New Hope? for the time being ie6 remains a significant number too me much as I wish it did'nt - S On 12 June 2010 12:42, Phil Archer ph...@w3.org wrote: Again, interesting, stuff, Dave. Concerning your remark: If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. I believe they are indeed concerned about this. AIUI they're a little fed up with the constant remarks on fora like this where we're broadly able to talk about the standards browsers and mean every browser except IE for which, everyone knows you need to put in workarounds. IE9 is going to take a big step towards changing that with support for SVG, XHTML and more. As for when IT departments get around to changing over to it, who can say? Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? Phil. Dave Lane wrote: For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month: Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits): IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%) FF: 40.29% CHROME: 9.09% SAFARI: 7.68% OPERA: 0.62% IE6 = 6.27% Sports clothing (28,337 visits): IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%) FF: 24.87% CHROME: 6.20% SAFARI: 17.82% OPERA: 0.77% IE6 = 6.88% Brewers website (3,300 visits): IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%) FF: 30.06% CHROME: 11.27% SAFARI: 10.03% OPERA: 1.03% IE6 = 4.79% Tourism operator (4,041 visits): IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%) FF: 26.73% CHROME: 4.80% SAFARI: 12.77% OPERA: 0.42% IE6 = 6.36% For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company. IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits): IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%) FF: 56.20% CHROME: 18.52% SAFARI: 5.48% OPERA: 2.82% IE6 = 1.28% If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. Cheers, Dave On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote: On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer67.11% Firefox17.19% Safari 9.70% Chrome4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.059.08% IE7.028.46% IE6.012.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Here are some stats I collected from a collection of large, high-traffic Australian sports/news websites I am involved with: IE8: 45% IE7: 30% IE6: 10% Firefox 3.x: 9% Everything else: 6% This is off the top of my head, but IE6 definitely accounts for 10-11% (and is higher than FF3). These stats are likely to be skewed toward people who browse the Internet from work, hence the low Firefox usage. -- James Ducker Web Developer http://www.studioj.net.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Thanks everyone for these interesting stats - depressing as they are. Lucien - I assume it's not a typo when you say your IT department is now rolling out IE7. I'm curious to know the rationale behind that cf. going straight to IE8. If they're doing all the testing to ensure that IE7 is safe from a company point of view, why not go for the current version? What am I missing? Thanks Phil. -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 nedlud wrote: Our site is a large health care site. Of the ~25 visitors in the last month, Google says the break down by browser is... Internet Explorer 69.44% Firefox 15.98% Safari 9.32% Chrome 4.20% And of the IE traffic, we get... IE 8.0 37.90% IE 7.0 32.87% IE 6.0 29.23% And that is only our external traffic. Our intranet traffic is a different story since IE6 is still our official browser, although our IT department has finally started rolling our IE7 as of this week. So for us, IE 6 can't be ignored, as much as we would like to. Lucien. On 11 June 2010 23:17, Duncan Hill dun...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:32:03 +0100, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. Nice figures, the stats were produced for May 2010, and calculated for 15 Billion page views. The quoted 4.7% using IE 6 therefore still amounts to around 70 Million page views during May 2010. (that's the entire population of the UK, and then some) . dead? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Hi Phil, Sadly, no, it's not a typo. For some reason, known only to our IT department, they got locked into a vendor contract on some mission critical software where the vendor has only recently certified IE7 compatibility. The vendor *has not* certified their product with IE8, so we can't move to that. The same software does not work on any other browser like FF, Safari, or Opera. I assume they have some activeX components in there they they don't know how to port to Javascript. It is not something that we (the web team. we are not part of IT) are happy about, but our IT department doesn't listen to us web people. Lucien. On 12 June 2010 17:28, Phil Archer ph...@w3.org wrote: Thanks everyone for these interesting stats - depressing as they are. Lucien - I assume it's not a typo when you say your IT department is now rolling out IE7. I'm curious to know the rationale behind that cf. going straight to IE8. If they're doing all the testing to ensure that IE7 is safe from a company point of view, why not go for the current version? What am I missing? Thanks Phil. -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 nedlud wrote: Our site is a large health care site. Of the ~25 visitors in the last month, Google says the break down by browser is... Internet Explorer 69.44% Firefox 15.98% Safari 9.32% Chrome 4.20% And of the IE traffic, we get... IE 8.0 37.90% IE 7.0 32.87% IE 6.0 29.23% And that is only our external traffic. Our intranet traffic is a different story since IE6 is still our official browser, although our IT department has finally started rolling our IE7 as of this week. So for us, IE 6 can't be ignored, as much as we would like to. Lucien. On 11 June 2010 23:17, Duncan Hill dun...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:32:03 +0100, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. Nice figures, the stats were produced for May 2010, and calculated for 15 Billion page views. The quoted 4.7% using IE 6 therefore still amounts to around 70 Million page views during May 2010. (that's the entire population of the UK, and then some) . dead? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Can you not swing IE8 in compatibility mode? That'll have no issues with activeX. Out of interest why won't your IT deparment say use this browser fir internal apps and the new FF or whatever for other browsing. Putting a shortcut to the internal app URL on the desktop would make it easy to differentiate for the user. They then don't have to say they support the app under another browser or even have a great deal to support with a modern browser for general as they all probably use one at home. This is something I have never understood. Steve Sent from my iPhone On 12 Jun 2010, at 08:44, nedlud ned...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Phil, Sadly, no, it's not a typo. For some reason, known only to our IT department, they got locked into a vendor contract on some mission critical software where the vendor has only recently certified IE7 compatibility. The vendor *has not* certified their product with IE8, so we can't move to that. The same software does not work on any other browser like FF, Safari, or Opera. I assume they have some activeX components in there they they don't know how to port to Javascript. It is not something that we (the web team. we are not part of IT) are happy about, but our IT department doesn't listen to us web people. Lucien. On 12 June 2010 17:28, Phil Archer ph...@w3.org wrote: Thanks everyone for these interesting stats - depressing as they are. Lucien - I assume it's not a typo when you say your IT department is now rolling out IE7. I'm curious to know the rationale behind that cf. going straight to IE8. If they're doing all the testing to ensure that IE7 is safe from a company point of view, why not go for the current version? What am I missing? Thanks Phil. -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 nedlud wrote: Our site is a large health care site. Of the ~25 visitors in the last month, Google says the break down by browser is... Internet Explorer 69.44% Firefox 15.98% Safari 9.32% Chrome 4.20% And of the IE traffic, we get... IE 8.0 37.90% IE 7.0 32.87% IE 6.0 29.23% And that is only our external traffic. Our intranet traffic is a different story since IE6 is still our official browser, although our IT department has finally started rolling our IE7 as of this week. So for us, IE 6 can't be ignored, as much as we would like to. Lucien. On 11 June 2010 23:17, Duncan Hill dun...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:32:03 +0100, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. Nice figures, the stats were produced for May 2010, and calculated for 15 Billion page views. The quoted 4.7% using IE 6 therefore still amounts to around 70 Million page views during May 2010. (that's the entire population of the UK, and then some) . dead? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month: Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits): IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%) FF: 40.29% CHROME: 9.09% SAFARI: 7.68% OPERA: 0.62% IE6 = 6.27% Sports clothing (28,337 visits): IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%) FF: 24.87% CHROME: 6.20% SAFARI: 17.82% OPERA: 0.77% IE6 = 6.88% Brewers website (3,300 visits): IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%) FF: 30.06% CHROME: 11.27% SAFARI: 10.03% OPERA: 1.03% IE6 = 4.79% Tourism operator (4,041 visits): IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%) FF: 26.73% CHROME: 4.80% SAFARI: 12.77% OPERA: 0.42% IE6 = 6.36% For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company. IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits): IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%) FF: 56.20% CHROME: 18.52% SAFARI: 5.48% OPERA: 2.82% IE6 = 1.28% If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. Cheers, Dave On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote: On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer67.11% Firefox17.19% Safari9.70% Chrome4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.059.08% IE7.028.46% IE6.012.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Dave Lane, Egressive Ltd d...@egressive.com m +64212298147 p +6439633733 http://egressive.com Free/OpenSourceSoftware: because to share is human Only use Open Standards - w3.org, Drupal powers communities - drupal.org Effusion Group http://effusiongroup.com Software Patents kill innovation *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Again, interesting, stuff, Dave. Concerning your remark: If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. I believe they are indeed concerned about this. AIUI they're a little fed up with the constant remarks on fora like this where we're broadly able to talk about the standards browsers and mean every browser except IE for which, everyone knows you need to put in workarounds. IE9 is going to take a big step towards changing that with support for SVG, XHTML and more. As for when IT departments get around to changing over to it, who can say? Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? Phil. Dave Lane wrote: For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month: Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits): IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%) FF: 40.29% CHROME: 9.09% SAFARI: 7.68% OPERA: 0.62% IE6 = 6.27% Sports clothing (28,337 visits): IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%) FF: 24.87% CHROME: 6.20% SAFARI: 17.82% OPERA: 0.77% IE6 = 6.88% Brewers website (3,300 visits): IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%) FF: 30.06% CHROME: 11.27% SAFARI: 10.03% OPERA: 1.03% IE6 = 4.79% Tourism operator (4,041 visits): IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%) FF: 26.73% CHROME: 4.80% SAFARI: 12.77% OPERA: 0.42% IE6 = 6.36% For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company. IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits): IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%) FF: 56.20% CHROME: 18.52% SAFARI: 5.48% OPERA: 2.82% IE6 = 1.28% If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. Cheers, Dave On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote: On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer67.11% Firefox17.19% Safari9.70% Chrome4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.059.08% IE7.028.46% IE6.012.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? in a ie browser without any fudging? my initial response was only if Google are in position to take over Microsoft before that date, but... http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/05/19/another-follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx ie9: A New Hope? for the time being ie6 remains a significant number too me much as I wish it did'nt - S On 12 June 2010 12:42, Phil Archer ph...@w3.org wrote: Again, interesting, stuff, Dave. Concerning your remark: If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. I believe they are indeed concerned about this. AIUI they're a little fed up with the constant remarks on fora like this where we're broadly able to talk about the standards browsers and mean every browser except IE for which, everyone knows you need to put in workarounds. IE9 is going to take a big step towards changing that with support for SVG, XHTML and more. As for when IT departments get around to changing over to it, who can say? Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? Phil. Dave Lane wrote: For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month: Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits): IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%) FF: 40.29% CHROME: 9.09% SAFARI: 7.68% OPERA: 0.62% IE6 = 6.27% Sports clothing (28,337 visits): IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%) FF: 24.87% CHROME: 6.20% SAFARI: 17.82% OPERA: 0.77% IE6 = 6.88% Brewers website (3,300 visits): IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%) FF: 30.06% CHROME: 11.27% SAFARI: 10.03% OPERA: 1.03% IE6 = 4.79% Tourism operator (4,041 visits): IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%) FF: 26.73% CHROME: 4.80% SAFARI: 12.77% OPERA: 0.42% IE6 = 6.36% For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company. IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits): IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%) FF: 56.20% CHROME: 18.52% SAFARI: 5.48% OPERA: 2.82% IE6 = 1.28% If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. Cheers, Dave On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote: On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer67.11% Firefox17.19% Safari 9.70% Chrome4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.059.08% IE7.028.46% IE6.012.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Mike, Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%. By mentioning shoppers I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system using an XP standard operating environment or people using older computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology. Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ? Thanks, Andy On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. Internet explorer only: IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% In general: IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
The website for the RSPCA Cornwall (which I provide, voluntarily) has a lot of visitors from all walks of life and represents a reasonable cross section of what users are up to. In the last year, which is a long time I know, some 3663 users of IE6 have visited the site. O.K., so that's only 8.92% but it's a lot of people. Certainly too many to ignore! Of course, they may have all moved to Firefox 3.5 last week, but I doubt it! Indeed, 487 folk were still using Netscape 4 (1.19%)! Bob - Original Message - From: Foskett, Mike To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 12:32 PM Subject: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be readily ignored. While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages should be fine. I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of general use worldwide. Internet explorer only: IEv8: 48.26% IEv7: 37.14% IEv6: 14.58% Other: 0.02% In general: IE: 66.12% Firefox: 16.25% Safari: 8.06% Chrome: 6.89% Others: 2.67% So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by the article. Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore. And by the way who actually said 5% is the ignorable threshold? I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally. Regards, Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ -- This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer 67.11% Firefox 17.19% Safari 9.70% Chrome 4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.0 59.08% IE7.0 28.46% IE6.0 12.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, .au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Quote: ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Sorry, no. The percentage was calculated from the actual numbers not the rounded percentages. 9.64% IEv6 overall is accurate. Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: 11 June 2010 13:33 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS] On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer 67.11% Firefox 17.19% Safari 9.70% Chrome 4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.0 59.08% IE7.0 28.46% IE6.0 12.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, .au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:32:03 +0100, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. Nice figures, the stats were produced for May 2010, and calculated for 15 Billion page views. The quoted 4.7% using IE 6 therefore still amounts to around 70 Million page views during May 2010. (that's the entire population of the UK, and then some) . dead? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Our site is a large health care site. Of the ~25 visitors in the last month, Google says the break down by browser is... Internet Explorer 69.44% Firefox 15.98% Safari 9.32% Chrome 4.20% And of the IE traffic, we get... IE 8.0 37.90% IE 7.0 32.87% IE 6.0 29.23% And that is only our external traffic. Our intranet traffic is a different story since IE6 is still our official browser, although our IT department has finally started rolling our IE7 as of this week. So for us, IE 6 can't be ignored, as much as we would like to. Lucien. On 11 June 2010 23:17, Duncan Hill dun...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:32:03 +0100, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Hi all, Ref Links for light reading article: http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/ Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold across USA and Europe. Nice figures, the stats were produced for May 2010, and calculated for 15 Billion page views. The quoted 4.7% using IE 6 therefore still amounts to around 70 Million page views during May 2010. (that's the entire population of the UK, and then some) . dead? Duncan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
