Re: [wsjt-devel] FT8 TX6 mod entry and security hole

[Alan McDonald via wsjt-devel]

Why do you generate msgs if you are wanting to call CQ?
Generate Msgs takes the DXCall value but there is probably no value there if
you wish to call CQ.

Alan McDonald
VK1AO

-Original Message-
From: Glenn Williams via wsjt-devel  
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2023 2:38 PM
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: Glenn Williams 
Subject: [wsjt-devel] FT8 TX6 mod entry and security hole

Hello,

Setup:  FT8 V2.6.1, Windows 10, Kenwood TS590SG operated via USB cable.
Time/Date:  Last night, thinking about changing TX6 to specifically call
3C3CA with a CQ.

So we know that "CQ DL AF8C EN81"
WILL be transmitted if I modify TX6 and call CQ for Germany,

However attempting to use "CQ 3C AF8C EN81" created a couple of  problems.

Problem #1: If I insert DL into TX6 and select "Generate Std Msgs" using DL
and not 3C, even if the DL is in lower case, the DL gets converted to upper
case. Fine.  Also transmitting the CQ works fine.  But if I instead insert
3C and click "Generate Std Msgs" the 3C is erased and TX6 looks normal. So
that means I can't aim a CQ at entities with number first prefixes?  BOO!

So tonight I did it all over again and in addition put in a "#" 
character instead of 3C, and got similar results.

Problem #2: Follow mostly the sequence in Problem 1 but instead of clicking
"Generate Std Msgs" just click "Enable Tx".  With DL that works also. But
with 3C I transmit "  AF8C EN81 " .
Notice also the extra underscore and less-than sign and greater-than sign.

Transcript of Rx Frequency window follows:

030545  Tx  1281 ~  CQ DL AF8C EN81
030615  Tx  1281 ~  CQ SV AF8C EN81
030645  Tx  1281 ~   AF8C EN81
030715   8  0.1 1795 ~   K7ACZ 73
030815 -18  0.1 1216 ~  CQ TI2GBB EJ89 Costa Rica
030900  Tx  1281 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
030915 -13  0.1 1218 ~  WB4JTT TI2GBB RR73
030930  Tx  1281 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031000  Tx  1457 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031101  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031130  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031200  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031230  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031330  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031400  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031430  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
032000  Tx  1613 ~   AF8C EN81
032100  Tx  1613 ~   AF8C EN81
032130  Tx  1613 ~  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel



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[wsjt-devel] FT8 TX6 mod entry and security hole

[Glenn Williams via wsjt-devel]

Hello,

Setup:  FT8 V2.6.1, Windows 10, Kenwood TS590SG operated via USB cable.
Time/Date:  Last night, thinking about changing TX6 to specifically call
3C3CA with a CQ.

So we know that "CQ DL AF8C EN81"
WILL be transmitted if I modify TX6 and call CQ for Germany,

However attempting to use "CQ 3C AF8C EN81" created a couple of  problems.

Problem #1: If I insert DL into TX6 and select "Generate Std Msgs" using 
DL and not 3C, even if the DL is in lower case, the DL gets converted
to upper case. Fine.  Also transmitting the CQ works fine.  But if I 
instead insert 3C and click "Generate Std Msgs" the 3C is erased and TX6 
looks normal. So that means I can't aim a CQ at entities with number

first prefixes?  BOO!

So tonight I did it all over again and in addition put in a "#" 
character instead of 3C, and got similar results.


Problem #2: Follow mostly the sequence in Problem 1 but instead of
clicking "Generate Std Msgs" just click "Enable Tx".  With DL
that works also. But with 3C I transmit "  AF8C EN81 " .
Notice also the extra underscore and less-than sign and greater-than sign.

Transcript of Rx Frequency window follows:

030545  Tx  1281 ~  CQ DL AF8C EN81
030615  Tx  1281 ~  CQ SV AF8C EN81
030645  Tx  1281 ~   AF8C EN81
030715   8  0.1 1795 ~   K7ACZ 73
030815 -18  0.1 1216 ~  CQ TI2GBB EJ89 Costa Rica
030900  Tx  1281 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
030915 -13  0.1 1218 ~  WB4JTT TI2GBB RR73
030930  Tx  1281 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031000  Tx  1457 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031101  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031130  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031200  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031230  Tx  1648 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031330  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031400  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
031430  Tx  1613 ~  TI2GBB AF8C EN81
032000  Tx  1613 ~   AF8C EN81
032100  Tx  1613 ~   AF8C EN81
032130  Tx  1613 ~  The missing greater-than symbol at 032130 is also a feature because I 
entered "CQ_#AADFDF12345676890 AF8C EN81" and clicked Enable Tx.


The last one there happened because I modified TX6 to say something
really ugly like

CQ #AADFDF1234567890afdkjhkdfhasdsadsff AF8C EN81

and then clicked Enable Tx.

Evidently inserting a long string overflows a buffer which is then 
truncated when Enable Tx is clicked?


OK Time to quit operating and send this email!

Security hole question:
Now what would happen if I was running WSJT-X remotely with some
Remote Desktop App which had malware in it and the malware part
decided to overflow the TX6 buffer with some kind of malware insertion
trick?  Full disclosure here, I do not code up malware. I don't know
how. I have just read about it, where somewhere in the past I read
that forcing buffer overflows is one trick used to compromise a 
computer.  Perhaps somewhere in your code you have a catch to limit

buffer overflows?

Perhaps you need more work to enable CQing ALL legal call signs
and at the same time the team should audit the code for disallowing 
dirty tricks? Also add a special character rejection part.

-
--73, Glenn, AF8C


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[wsjt-devel] wsprd.c Subtracting Signals on the Final Pass

[Tolboom, Ryan via wsjt-devel]

Hello,

When wsprd runs multiple passes, it still calls subtract_signal2() as
well as get_wspr_channel_signals() on the last pass.
The updated I/Q data isn't used as the loop doesn't execute again.

When I modified wsprd.c to skip subtraction on the last pass I noticed
better timing numbers (since subtract_signal2() is called one less
time) and no detriment to my decodes.
This was my change on line 1430 of wsprd.c

if( subtraction && !noprint && (ipass != (npasses - 1))) {

Please let me know if there's something I'm not thinking of.

73,

Ryan Tolboom N2BP


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Fons Adriaensen via wsjt-devel]

On Tue, May 09, 2023 at 03:06:34AM +1000, Adrian via wsjt-devel wrote:
 
> On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:
> 
> > #3 is bogus.
> 
> How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..

I'm not an AES fellow, but as another audio 'expert' I can only
confirm that #3 is complete bogus.

Even if the audio HW is usually the most crappy part of most PCs,
it's not that bad that generating signals in the 1.5 to 2.5 kHz range
would have less 'digitisation nonlinearities' (whatever that means)
than anything outside that range.

If there are any nonlinear effects, that would be mostly due to the
complete mismatch between a typical PC headphone/line output (a few 
hundred mV) and a typical rig mic input (expecting maybe a few mV).

What you need to avoid that is a passive attenuator (two resistors)
between the two, allowing the PC audio output to operate at its normal
level while avoiding overload on the mic input.

Also relying on the rig's filters to remove any harmonics is just
bad practice again. There shouldn't be any harmonic content in the
audio to start with.

The really hilarious thing about this whole thread is that it is
just the result of an implementation detail of WSJT - using audio
signals as the interface between a PC and a rig.

In these days of SDR hardware, I'd expect a rig to both output
and accept digital complex-valued baseband signals. Even the 
cheapest SDR hardware can provide and handle at leas 1 MHz
bandwidth with a near perfect flat frequency response.

Just my 0.02 Euro of course.




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Enough

[Conrad PA5Y via wsjt-devel]

Yes, that is perfectly clear and needs no further 'discussion'.

73

Conrad PA5Y



-Original Message-
From: Joe Taylor via wsjt-devel  
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 8:34 PM
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Joe Taylor 
Subject: [wsjt-devel] Enough

Please, folks, no more email about "Split".

Multiple messages on the same topic by the same few individuals are seldom 
helpful -- and in my view most certainly have not been, in this instance.

Regarding terminology used in the WSJT-X user interface: English and most other 
modern languages often use the same work to mean somewhat different things in 
different contexts.  In the present case, "Split Operation" is clearly defined 
when first used in the WSJT-X User Guide. 
Here's the full entry, quoted from near the end of Section 4.2:

"Split Operation: Significant advantages result from using Split mode (separate 
VFOs for Rx and Tx) if your radio supports it. If it does not, WSJT-X can 
emulate such behavior. Either method will result in a cleaner transmitted 
signal, by keeping the Tx audio always in the range 1500 to
2000 Hz so that audio harmonics cannot pass through the Tx sideband filter. 
Select Rig to use the radio’s Split mode, or Fake It to have WSJT-X adjust the 
VFO frequency as needed, when T/R switching occurs. 
Choose None if you do not wish to use split operation."

-- 73, Joe, K1JT


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Glenn Williams via wsjt-devel]

I am the person who started this thread.
I was preparing some useful test data on splits to this thread.
So I will not send it.  I don't want to cause more trouble.
--73, Glenn, AF8C

On 5/8/2023 1:41 PM, Conrad PA5Y via wsjt-devel wrote:

I have to say that this is possibly to most tedious and pointless thread I have 
ever seen.  As for Jim Brown not having the technical ability, I am lost for 
words.

Adrian, please calm down, you are becoming very unpopular.

73 Conrad PA5Y


-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 7:07 PM
To: k...@arrl.net; WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles


On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:

#1 is hardly a benefit,



Why not, utilizing a gap at 100Hz or 2900Hz is very useful and effective
with split.



#3 is bogus.


How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..



#2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental
purpose of the practice.


Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you
were talking about,..


Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new
tricks ?

Mike makes excellent points, which you fail to comprehend.

The harmonic prevention title is ridiculous, keep it simple like "Signal
Quality"


vk4tux





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[jbozell via wsjt-devel]

Moderators! Help! Please!

While I’ve found this to be royally entertaining, this equine has been beaten, 
flayed, left for dead, reanimated and zombified. Perhaps I’m overly naïve, but 
does this discussion of “split” really cause the amount of confusion implied 
except among the principals involved in the discussion? Is there anyone who has 
gotten to the description of “split” in the manual and said “Oh no, no, no. No 
way...I don’t get it so I’m not going to use FT8”??

Joe/WB0CDY

From: Phil Williams via wsjt-devel 
Reply-To: WSJT software development 
Date: Monday, May 8, 2023 at 11:28
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Phil Williams 
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

Gah! I am out of here!
Phil de W1ZOT

On Mon, May 8, 2023, 13:11 Adrian via wsjt-devel 
mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> 
wrote:

On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:
> #1 is hardly a benefit,


Why not, utilizing a gap at 100Hz or 2900Hz is very useful and effective
with split.


> #3 is bogus.

How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..


> #2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental
> purpose of the practice.

Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you
were talking about,..


Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new
tricks ?

Mike makes excellent points, which you fail to comprehend.

The harmonic prevention title is ridiculous, keep it simple like "Signal
Quality"


vk4tux





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Bobby Chandler via wsjt-devel]

Looks like this hoss has been whupped to death.

Bobby/N4AU

On 5/8/2023 2:30 PM, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:

On 5/8/2023 10:06 AM, Adrian wrote:

How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..


I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, on the basis of a wide 
range of technical achievements. Also a member of the Standards 
Committee of the AES, Vice-Chair of the WG on EMC, a principle author 
of five standards on EMC, and a member of five other WGs from 
loudspeakers to microphones to digital audio. I've learned as much 
from the technical giants who populate those WGs as I did in 
University 60 years ago.


#2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental 

purpose of the practice.


Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what 
you were talking about,..


You'll find me listed on the Title page of the ARRL Handbook, the ARRL 
Antenna Book, and as a major contributor to N0AX's ARRL book on 
Grounding and Bonding. I've long been an invited speaker on technical 
topics at major ham events.


Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn 
new tricks ?


This old dog has continuously been learning new tricks, some of them 
advancing the state of the art. See the many technical publications at 
k9yc.com/publish.htm


73, Jim K9YC





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Conrad PA5Y via wsjt-devel]

I have to say that this is possibly to most tedious and pointless thread I have 
ever seen.  As for Jim Brown not having the technical ability, I am lost for 
words.

Adrian, please calm down, you are becoming very unpopular.

73 Conrad PA5Y


-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel  
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 7:07 PM
To: k...@arrl.net; WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles


On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:
> #1 is hardly a benefit, 


Why not, utilizing a gap at 100Hz or 2900Hz is very useful and effective 
with split.


> #3 is bogus.

How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..


> #2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental 
> purpose of the practice.

Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you 
were talking about,..


Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new 
tricks ?

Mike makes excellent points, which you fail to comprehend.

The harmonic prevention title is ridiculous, keep it simple like "Signal 
Quality"


vk4tux





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Jim Brown via wsjt-devel]

On 5/8/2023 10:06 AM, Adrian wrote:

How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..


I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, on the basis of a wide 
range of technical achievements. Also a member of the Standards 
Committee of the AES, Vice-Chair of the WG on EMC, a principle author of 
five standards on EMC, and a member of five other WGs from loudspeakers 
to microphones to digital audio. I've learned as much from the technical 
giants who populate those WGs as I did in University 60 years ago.


#2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental 

purpose of the practice.


Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you 
were talking about,..


You'll find me listed on the Title page of the ARRL Handbook, the ARRL 
Antenna Book, and as a major contributor to N0AX's ARRL book on 
Grounding and Bonding. I've long been an invited speaker on technical 
topics at major ham events.


Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new 
tricks ?


This old dog has continuously been learning new tricks, some of them 
advancing the state of the art. See the many technical publications at 
k9yc.com/publish.htm


73, Jim K9YC





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[wsjt-devel] Enough

[Joe Taylor via wsjt-devel]

Please, folks, no more email about "Split".

Multiple messages on the same topic by the same few individuals are 
seldom helpful -- and in my view most certainly have not been, in this 
instance.


Regarding terminology used in the WSJT-X user interface: English and 
most other modern languages often use the same work to mean somewhat 
different things in different contexts.  In the present case, "Split 
Operation" is clearly defined when first used in the WSJT-X User Guide. 
Here's the full entry, quoted from near the end of Section 4.2:


"Split Operation: Significant advantages result from using Split mode 
(separate VFOs for Rx and Tx) if your radio supports it. If it does not, 
WSJT-X can emulate such behavior. Either method will result in a cleaner 
transmitted signal, by keeping the Tx audio always in the range 1500 to 
2000 Hz so that audio harmonics cannot pass through the Tx sideband 
filter. Select Rig to use the radio’s Split mode, or Fake It to have 
WSJT-X adjust the VFO frequency as needed, when T/R switching occurs. 
Choose None if you do not wish to use split operation."


-- 73, Joe, K1JT


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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Brian Moran via wsjt-devel]

Or, pick words that don’t have a meaning yet. Like call it “TX Optimizan” with choices like “none” “active” and “emulate” . I am joking. -Brian N9ADGSent via iPhoneOn May 8, 2023, at 11:18 AM, John Kludt via wsjt-devel  wrote:Michael,My vote is we have beat this issue to death several times over.  Pick any language, as it evolves words take on new meanings or nuances.  Can we maybe let this one go?John K7SYS On Mon, May 8, 2023, 09:37 Black Michael via wsjt-devel  wrote:And ya'll are confusing the purpose of split with the rig split function.We have 3 choices#1 Fake It#2 Rig#3 NoneThe all refer to split -- not to any reason for using it.  You are trying to put the reason as the title.Mike W9MDB






On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:51:17 AM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel  wrote:




  

  
  
No, leave the split rig/fake checkpoints, as is, but place within
  a field/box titled 'Signal Optimization' ,

which should be an easy ui update ?

No need to remove rig split or fake split, because that is what
  is activated via CAT.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:42, Alan wrote:


  
  
I think I suggested something similar much
  earlier in the thread.


However with that new name rig and fake it don't
  mean anything so I'd suggest change to hardware and software
  respectively.



  Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device




  
  

  On 8 May 2023 16:37:35
Adrian via wsjt-devel
 wrote:
  
Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however
  'Signal Optimization' makes more sense,
as that is the end result.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam
  Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:


  


  

  

  Hi
All,


As a retired software developer
  with extensive UI development
  experience, may I make a
  suggestion to 
whomever is
in charge of the UI, to change
this part of the display in
Radio Settings tab from what is
the 
current
version (left side) to this new
version (right
side) and explain its function
in the WSJT-X manual/





  



This removes the ambiguity and
  confusion regarding the use of the
  word SPLIT.




73,



  

  Sam W2JDB
  
  

  
  
  
  -Original
  Message-
  From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
  To: WSJT software development

Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[John Kludt via wsjt-devel]

Michael,

My vote is we have beat this issue to death several times over.  Pick any
language, as it evolves words take on new meanings or nuances.  Can we
maybe let this one go?

John K7SYS

On Mon, May 8, 2023, 09:37 Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> And ya'll are confusing the purpose of split with the rig split function.
>
> We have 3 choices
>
> #1 Fake It
> #2 Rig
> #3 None
>
> The all refer to split -- not to any reason for using it.  You are trying
> to put the reason as the title.
>
> Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:51:17 AM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>
> No, leave the split rig/fake checkpoints, as is, but place within a
> field/box titled 'Signal Optimization' ,
>
> which should be an easy ui update ?
>
> No need to remove rig split or fake split, because that is what is
> activated via CAT.
>
>
> 73
>
>
> vk4tux
> On 9/5/23 01:42, Alan wrote:
>
> I think I suggested something similar much earlier in the thread.
>
> However with that new name rig and fake it don't mean anything so I'd
> suggest change to hardware and software respectively.
>
> Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device
>
> On 8 May 2023 16:37:35 Adrian via wsjt-devel
>  
> wrote:
>
> Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' makes
> more sense,
>
> as that is the end result.
>
>
> 73
>
>
> vk4tux
> On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> As a retired software developer with extensive UI development experience,
> may I make a suggestion to
> whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of the display in
> Radio Settings tab from what is the
> current version (left side) to this new version (right side) and explain
> its function in the WSJT-X manual/
>
>
> [image: ChangeRadioSetting.jpg]
>
> This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the word
> SPLIT.
>
>
> 73,
>
>
> Sam W2JDB
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
> 
> To: WSJT software development 
> 
> Cc: Adrian  
> Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
>
> Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole pan
> TX usage.
>
> 73
> vk4tux
> On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
>
> So what more does it do?
>
> Björn SM7IUN
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
>
> That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has
> every come up with anything better than Split.
> Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more
> flexible now than before.
>
> Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>
> I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of
> WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
> to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio
> technology.
>
> The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use
> VFO B", and "Use CAT".
>
> Björn SM7IUN
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > This start to be really funny!
>
> There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
> corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
> to tell him he's right.
>
> The story related in your post is perfect!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Phil Williams via wsjt-devel]

Gah! I am out of here!

Phil de W1ZOT

On Mon, May 8, 2023, 13:11 Adrian via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>
> On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > #1 is hardly a benefit,
>
>
> Why not, utilizing a gap at 100Hz or 2900Hz is very useful and effective
> with split.
>
>
> > #3 is bogus.
>
> How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..
>
>
> > #2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental
> > purpose of the practice.
>
> Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you
> were talking about,..
>
>
> Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new
> tricks ?
>
> Mike makes excellent points, which you fail to comprehend.
>
> The harmonic prevention title is ridiculous, keep it simple like "Signal
> Quality"
>
>
> vk4tux
>
>
>
>
>
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[wsjt-devel] unsubscibe

[John Stins via wsjt-devel]

 

 

John Stins(PA5JS)

Heufkens 123

5403LM UDEN

Discord: https://discord.com/1091703479397003324
 

 



 

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

On 9/5/23 02:49, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote:
#1 is hardly a benefit, 



Why not, utilizing a gap at 100Hz or 2900Hz is very useful and effective 
with split.




#3 is bogus.


How would you know ? You lack the technical ability..


#2 is a side benefit, but VERY secondary, and not the fundamental 
purpose of the practice.


Absolute BS for the same reason for #1 I used to think you knew what you 
were talking about,..



Who cares about you or your 70 yr old history, old dogs can't learn new 
tricks ?


Mike makes excellent points, which you fail to comprehend.

The harmonic prevention title is ridiculous, keep it simple like "Signal 
Quality"



vk4tux





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Jim Brown via wsjt-devel]

#1 is hardly a benefit, #3 is bogus. #2 is a side benefit, but VERY 
secondary, and not the fundamental purpose of the practice.


73, Jim K9YC

On 5/8/2023 7:26 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

#1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.
#2 It avoids roll off of power at band edges.
#3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Jim Brown via wsjt-devel]

I strongly disagree, Mike. Bjorn's suggestion to call it Transmit 
Harmonic Prevention is a VERY good one, because it describes what the 
choice does. It is NOT "split" in the sense it has been used in ham 
radio for at least 70 years.


People learn from things being called what they are. Bjorn's suggestion 
teaches. "Split" is wrong, confuses, and teaches nothing.


I do NOT agree with his wording for the three options, and propose they 
remain the same.


73, Jim K9YC

On 5/8/2023 6:42 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody 
has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much 
more flexible now than before.


Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of 
WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio 
technology.


The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use 
VFO B", and "Use CAT".






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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

Mike I personally do not have issue with it as is, and as you know most 
do not read the manual, or could not be bothered.


"Split Operation for Signal Quality"  could be another option ? Just 
lets the newbies get a clue on why a split option is there.



73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 02:32, Black Michael wrote:

And ya'll are confusing the purpose of split with the rig split function.

We have 3 choices

#1 Fake It
#2 Rig
#3 None

The all refer to split -- not to any reason for using it.  You are 
trying to put the reason as the title.


Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:51:17 AM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



No, leave the split rig/fake checkpoints, as is, but place within a 
field/box titled 'Signal Optimization' ,


which should be an easy ui update ?

No need to remove rig split or fake split, because that is what is 
activated via CAT.



73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:42, Alan wrote:

I think I suggested something similar much earlier in the thread.

However with that new name rig and fake it don't mean anything so I'd 
suggest change to hardware and software respectively.


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device

On 8 May 2023 16:37:35 Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 
 wrote:


Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' 
makes more sense,


as that is the end result.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:

Hi All,

As a retired software developer with extensive UI development 
experience, may I make a suggestion to
whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of the display 
in Radio Settings tab from what is the
current version (left side) to this new version (right side) and 
explain its function in the WSJT-X manual/



ChangeRadioSetting.jpg

This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the 
word SPLIT.



73,


Sam W2JDB



-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel  

To: WSJT software development  


Cc: Adrian  
Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second 
cycles


Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for 
whole pan TX usage.


73
vk4tux
On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  
wrote:


That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.
Nobody has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and
is much more flexible now than before.

Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel  wrote:


I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio
settings of WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with
digital radio technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the
band", "Use VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a
drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only
wants the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

And ya'll are confusing the purpose of split with the rig split function.
We have 3 choices
#1 Fake It#2 Rig#3 None
The all refer to split -- not to any reason for using it.  You are trying to 
put the reason as the title.
Mike W9MDB

 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:51:17 AM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
   
No, leave the split rig/fake checkpoints, as is, but place within a field/box 
titled 'Signal Optimization' ,
 
 
which should be an easy ui update ?
 
 
No need to remove rig split or fake split, because that is what is activated 
via CAT.
 

 
 
73
 

 
 
vk4tux
 
 On 9/5/23 01:42, Alan wrote:
  
  I think I suggested something similar much earlier in the thread. 
  However with that new name rig and fake it don't mean anything so I'd suggest 
change to hardware and software respectively. 
   Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device  
 
On 8 May 2023 16:37:35 Adrian via wsjt-devel  
wrote:
 
 
Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' makes more 
sense,
 
as that is the end result.
 

 
 
73
 

 
 
vk4tux
 
 On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:
  
Hi All, 
  As a retired software developer with extensive UI development experience, may 
I make a suggestion to  whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of 
the display in Radio Settings tab from what is the  current version (left side) 
to this new version (right side) and explain its function in the WSJT-X manual/ 
  
 
  This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the word SPLIT. 
  
  73, 
  
   Sam W2JDB 

 
 -Original Message-
 From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 To: WSJT software development 
 Cc: Adrian 
 Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
 
  Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole pan 
TX usage. 
  73 vk4tux
   On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
 
 So what more does it do? 
 Björn SM7IUN  
  On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
  
That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split. Let's just learn that Split from 
50 years ago has changed and is much more flexible now than before. 
  Mike W9MDB 
   

  
  On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
  
 I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of 
WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"  to remove some of the 
confusion to those who struggle with digital radio technology. 
  The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
B", and "Use CAT".
 
  Björn SM7IUN 
 
   On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:
  
On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
 > This start to be really funny!
 
 There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
 corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
 to tell him he's right.
 
 The story related in your post is perfect!
 
 73, Jim K9YC
 
 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

The RX frequency = Set band frequency & pan marker sent > received. If I 
send you a 1900Hz audio modulated signal at split Sub TX vfo set 
14.072.500 = 14.074.400 usb freq,


Your RX on 14.074.00 band standard RX will see it at 400Hz marker.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:46, Alan via wsjt-devel wrote:
Since WSJT-X shifts any transmit audio below 1500Hz higher up the 
spectrum how come we see RX signals on the waterfall below 1500Hz?


I presume on RX it shifts all signals back down by the same amount as 
they were shifted up on TX?


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device

On 8 May 2023 15:37:14 Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:


Fair enough, they come with keeping the transmit audio frequency 
centered in the passband.


"Use optimal transmit audio frequency" then?

Given the huge and often uninformed debates (not only here), avoiding 
the s-word would have a lot of value.


Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:29 PM Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:


#1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.
#2 It avoids roll off of power at band edges.
#3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.

Mike W9MDB



On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel  wrote:


So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael
 wrote:

That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good
choice. Nobody has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and
is much more flexible now than before.

Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-de...@listssourceforge.net>> wrote:


I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio
settings of WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with
digital radio technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the
band", "Use VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with
a drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only
wants the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel]

>From: Alan via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
>Since WSJT-X shifts any transmit audio below 1500Hz higher up the spectrum how 
>>come we see RX signals on the waterfall below 1500Hz?

>I presume on RX it shifts all signals back down by the same amount as they 
>were >shifted up on TX?

Hi Alan,

You question is answered in the User Guide 4.1. General, see the last bullet 
point 'Split Operation'. If you have any further questions on that issue you 
may send me a private mail (clicking CC: Reino Talarmo should reveal my email 
address).

73, Reino OH3mA



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

Reino,  "Signal Optimization" is a better field name , we control the 
audio passband frequency window for the best modulation results = Signal.



73


vk4tux


Sam just sent his proposal how to remove the split word in the relation of the 
local split usage. There may be no need for a 'two level' selection and just 
the title could be 'Audio optimization'. For sure related text in the User 
Guide needs same update, but in addition the 'Hold Tx Freq' related description 
should introduce 'split working' and perhaps a note to state that the Audio 
Optimization is independent of that and can be used at the same time.


73, Reino OH3mA



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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Alan via wsjt-devel]

I think I suggested something similar much earlier in the thread.

However with that new name rig and fake it don't mean anything so I'd 
suggest change to hardware and software respectively.


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device
On 8 May 2023 16:37:35 Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:
Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' makes 
more sense,

as that is the end result.

73

vk4tux
On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:

Hi All,

As a retired software developer with extensive UI development experience, 
may I make a suggestion to
whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of the display in 
Radio Settings tab from what is the
current version (left side) to this new version (right side) and explain 
its function in the WSJT-X manual/





This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the word SPLIT.


73,


Sam W2JDB



-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole pan TX 
usage.


73
vk4tux
On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:




So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more 
flexible now than before.


Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X 
is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio 
technology.


The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use 
VFO B", and "Use CAT".



Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:

This start to be really funny!


There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Alan via wsjt-devel]

Since WSJT-X shifts any transmit audio below 1500Hz higher up the spectrum 
how come we see RX signals on the waterfall below 1500Hz?


I presume on RX it shifts all signals back down by the same amount as they 
were shifted up on TX?


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device
On 8 May 2023 15:37:14 Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:
Fair enough, they come with keeping the transmit audio frequency centered 
in the passband.


"Use optimal transmit audio frequency" then?

Given the huge and often uninformed debates (not only here), avoiding the 
s-word would have a lot of value.


Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:29 PM Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

#1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.
#2 It avoids roll off of power at band edges.
#3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.

Mike W9MDB



On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more 
flexible now than before.


Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X 
is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio 
technology.


The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use 
VFO B", and "Use CAT".



Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:

This start to be really funny!


There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel]

> From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
> Much the same as a rig from 50 years ago looks nothing like today -- 
> including the fact that old rigs had no "split" capability at all and you had 
> to use a 2nd transceiver to accomplish the same thing.
> Then they added a split button and operators said "what can I do with this?". 
>  And CW split working a DXpedition or such was born.
> Then software came along and operators said "what can I do with this?".  And 
> WSJT-X rig split was born.
> And then operators said "Rig split doesn't work on my rig with WSJT-X".  And 
> WSJT-X Fake It was born.

Hi Mike,

A nice review of history, I have lived through it! You describe well how rig 
control for split evaluated. BUT the last two made a new usage of the rig split 
function. That split is totally a station's internal action/function as the 
resulting transmitted signal does not change due the split action. Operator is 
still needs to take care of the *split working* i.e. to select a different 
transmission frequency than the target station is using for transmission.

That means we now have two different 'splits'. 

Sam just sent his proposal how to remove the split word in the relation of the 
local split usage. There may be no need for a 'two level' selection and just 
the title could be 'Audio optimization'. For sure related text in the User 
Guide needs same update, but in addition the 'Hold Tx Freq' related description 
should introduce 'split working' and perhaps a note to state that the Audio 
Optimization is independent of that and can be used at the same time.

> Let's just agree that things change over time and we need to revisit our 
> burned-in-the-brain definitions of things.

Yes, but uses should also informed that there are two different splits used, 
when operating WSJT-X.

> This hobby is all about learning so let's learn something newand it's not 
> that new since WSJT-X has been out for a very long time.

Sure, but the learning curve for FT8 is quite steep and any unnecessary 
confusion should be avoided.

> I do realize that many don't understand the nuances of the different modes -- 
> much as I've had to help educate many just about bandwidth alone and have 
> found trying to educate some about the 1500-2000Hz behavior can take some 
> considerable effort for it to sink in.

I have the same feeling. Better to make that specific issue less confusing.

73, Reino OH3mA



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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

No, leave the split rig/fake checkpoints, as is, but place within a 
field/box titled 'Signal Optimization' ,


which should be an easy ui update ?

No need to remove rig split or fake split, because that is what is 
activated via CAT.



73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:42, Alan wrote:

I think I suggested something similar much earlier in the thread.

However with that new name rig and fake it don't mean anything so I'd 
suggest change to hardware and software respectively.


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device

On 8 May 2023 16:37:35 Adrian via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:


Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' 
makes more sense,


as that is the end result.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:

Hi All,

As a retired software developer with extensive UI development 
experience, may I make a suggestion to
whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of the display 
in Radio Settings tab from what is the
current version (left side) to this new version (right side) and 
explain its function in the WSJT-X manual/



ChangeRadioSetting.jpg

This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the 
word SPLIT.



73,


Sam W2JDB



-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole 
pan TX usage.


73
vk4tux
On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael > wrote:


That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.
Nobody has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is
much more flexible now than before.

Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> wrote:


I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio
settings of WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with
digital radio technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the
band", "Use VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel
mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a
drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants
the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Sam W2JDB
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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

I don't see what the problem is.
When you click "Rig" your rig goes into Split mode -- why would want to confuse 
people now with asking "why does my rig go into split mode when I click Rig in 
audio optimization".
Fake It is running split on just one VFO.
What we're missing in WSJT-X is the ability to get "Help" on items easily and 
we frequently have to explain to people how to find stuff in the 
manual.https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/qthelp-framework.html

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Re: [wsjt-devel] [wsjtgroup] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

Sam, That is what I mentioned earlier, however 'Signal Optimization' 
makes more sense,


as that is the end result.


73


vk4tux

On 9/5/23 01:28, Sam Birnbaum via groups.io wrote:

Hi All,

As a retired software developer with extensive UI development 
experience, may I make a suggestion to
whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of the display in 
Radio Settings tab from what is the
current version (left side) to this new version (right side) and 
explain its function in the WSJT-X manual/



ChangeRadioSetting.jpg

This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the word 
SPLIT.



73,


Sam W2JDB



-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole 
pan TX usage.


73
vk4tux
On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael > wrote:


That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice. 
Nobody has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is
much more flexible now than before.

Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> wrote:


I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings
of WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital
radio technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the
band", "Use VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel
mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a
drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants
the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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73,

Sam W2JDB
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel]

Hi All,
As a retired software developer with extensive UI development experience, may I 
make a suggestion to whomever is in charge of the UI, to change this part of 
the display in Radio Settings tab from what is the current version (left side) 
to this new version (right side) and explain its function in the WSJT-X manual/


This removes the ambiguity and confusion regarding the use of the word SPLIT.

73,

Sam W2JDB


-Original Message-
From: Adrian via wsjt-devel 
To: WSJT software development 
Cc: Adrian 
Sent: Mon, May 8, 2023 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

 Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole pan TX 
usage. 
  73 vk4tux
  On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
 
So what more does it do? 
 Björn SM7IUN  
  On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
  
That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split. Let's just learn that Split from 
50 years ago has changed and is much more flexible now than before. 
  Mike W9MDB 
   

  
  On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
  
 I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of 
WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"  to remove some of the 
confusion to those who struggle with digital radio technology. 
  The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
B", and "Use CAT".
 
  Björn SM7IUN 
 
   On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:
  
On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
 > This start to be really funny!
 
 There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
 corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
 to tell him he's right.
 
 The story related in your post is perfect!
 
 73, Jim K9YC
 
 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Much the same as a rig from 50 years ago looks nothing like today -- including 
the fact that old rigs had no "split" capability at all and you had to use a 
2nd transceiver to accomplish the same thing.Then they added a split button and 
operators said "what can I do with this?".  And CW split working a DXpedition 
or such was born.Then software came along and operators said "what can I do 
with this?".  And WSJT-X rig split was born.And then operators said "Rig split 
doesn't work on my rig with WSJT-X".  And WSJT-X Fake It was born.
Let's just agree that things change over time and we need to revisit our 
burned-in-the-brain definitions of things.
This hobby is all about learning so let's learn something newand it's not 
that new since WSJT-X has been out for a very long time.
I do realize that many don't understand the nuances of the different modes -- 
much as I've had to help educate many just about bandwidth alone and have found 
trying to educate some about the 1500-2000Hz behavior can take some 
considerable effort for it to sink in.
Mike W9MDB

 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:40:39 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 Fair enough, they come with keeping the transmit audio frequency centered in 
the passband.
"Use optimal transmit audio frequency" then?
Given the huge and often uninformed debates (not only here), avoiding the 
s-word would have a lot of value. 
Björn SM7IUN
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:29 PM Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

#1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.#2 It avoids roll off of 
power at band edges.#3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.
Mike W9MDB
 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 So what more does it do?
Björn SM7IUN
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:

That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split.Let's just learn that Split from 
50 years ago has changed and is much more flexible now than before.
Mike W9MDB

 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X is 
renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention" to remove some of the confusion to 
those who struggle with digital radio technology.
The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Virginia Greene via wsjt-devel]

100%.

I wish the same reasoning was applied to Fox operation.  There the Fox can and 
often does essentially instruct you, the Hound, to transmit where the Fox’s 
receiver passband rolls off.

73,

Clarke  K1JX

> On May 8, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> #1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.
> #2 It avoids roll off of power at band edges.
> #3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.
> 
> Mike W9MDB
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> So what more does it do?
> 
> Björn SM7IUN
> 
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  > wrote:
> That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
> every come up with anything better than Split.
> Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more 
> flexible now than before.
> 
> Mike W9MDB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
> mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X 
> is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention" 
> to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio 
> technology.
> 
> The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
> B", and "Use CAT".
> 
> Björn SM7IUN
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
> mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>> 
> wrote:
> On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > This start to be really funny!
> 
> There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
> corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
> to tell him he's right.
> 
> The story related in your post is perfect!
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel]

Fair enough, they come with keeping the transmit audio frequency centered
in the passband.

"Use optimal transmit audio frequency" then?

Given the huge and often uninformed debates (not only here), avoiding the
s-word would have a lot of value.

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:29 PM Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> #1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.
> #2 It avoids roll off of power at band edges.
> #3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.
>
> Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>
> So what more does it do?
>
> Björn SM7IUN
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:
>
> That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has
> every come up with anything better than Split.
> Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more
> flexible now than before.
>
> Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>
> I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of
> WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
> to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio
> technology.
>
> The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use
> VFO B", and "Use CAT".
>
> Björn SM7IUN
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > This start to be really funny!
>
> There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
> corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
> to tell him he's right.
>
> The story related in your post is perfect!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

#1 It allows you to transmit outside your passband.#2 It avoids roll off of 
power at band edges.#3 It avoids non-linearities in the audio digitization.
Mike W9MDB
 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 09:13:02 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 So what more does it do?
Björn SM7IUN
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:

That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split.Let's just learn that Split from 
50 years ago has changed and is much more flexible now than before.
Mike W9MDB

 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X is 
renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention" to remove some of the confusion to 
those who struggle with digital radio technology.
The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

Consistent TX level control, making alc minimum set easier for whole pan 
TX usage.



73

vk4tux

On 9/5/23 00:08, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel wrote:

So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:

That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice. 
Nobody has every come up with anything better than Split.
Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is
much more flexible now than before.

Mike W9MDB




On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via
wsjt-devel  wrote:


I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings
of WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital
radio technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the
band", "Use VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a
drunk." A
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants
the world
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel]

So what more does it do?

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Black Michael  wrote:

> That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has
> every come up with anything better than Split.
> Let's just learn that Split from 50 years ago has changed and is much more
> flexible now than before.
>
> Mike W9MDB
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>
> I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of
> WSJT-X is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
> to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio
> technology.
>
> The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use
> VFO B", and "Use CAT".
>
> Björn SM7IUN
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel <
> wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > This start to be really funny!
>
> There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
> corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
> to tell him he's right.
>
> The story related in your post is perfect!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

That's not the only thing it does so that's not a good choice.  Nobody has 
every come up with anything better than Split.Let's just learn that Split from 
50 years ago has changed and is much more flexible now than before.
Mike W9MDB

 

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 08:37:26 AM CDT, Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:  
 
 I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X is 
renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention" to remove some of the confusion to 
those who struggle with digital radio technology.
The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use VFO 
B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> This start to be really funny!

There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
to tell him he's right.

The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Björn Ekelund via wsjt-devel]

I propose that the option "Split operation" in the radio settings of WSJT-X
is renamed "Transmit harmonics prevention"
to remove some of the confusion to those who struggle with digital radio
technology.

The three options below should be "I don't care if I QRM the band", "Use
VFO B", and "Use CAT".

Björn SM7IUN


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:24 AM Jim Brown via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:
> > This start to be really funny!
>
> There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A
> corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world
> to tell him he's right.
>
> The story related in your post is perfect!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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[wsjt-devel] Enhancement suggestion - TX start time

[Luis Miguel Castañeda via wsjt-devel]

I've noticed that - at least in FT4/8 - if you enable TX towards 
the end of a cycle TX starts inmediately despite it won't have the 
time to transmit something useable.


I think it would be helpful if - optionally or not - TX is 
prevented to start until the next turn when there isn't enough 
time to send the message.


--
Modernity is very ugly everywhere
 --- Tusia Beridze


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Jim Brown via wsjt-devel]

On 5/6/2023 10:41 PM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote:

This start to be really funny!


There's a saying in the States that "you can't argue with a drunk." A 
corollary is that it's a waste of time to one who only wants the world 
to tell him he's right.


The story related in your post is perfect!

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles

[Adrian via wsjt-devel]

On 8/5/23 17:00, Reino Talarmo wrote:

Sent: sunnuntai 7. toukokuuta 2023 23.29
Why would i talk about non wsjtx usage on a wsjtx group ?

It is important to use commonly used words in the same meaning in the ham 
community. There are many radio amateurs that have used other modes, some even 
tens of years, before trying to operate WSJT-X modes. This discussion is a good 
example of confusion, when suddenly a word is used to mean something else on 
the working point of view. Split has meant since start of the amateur radio 
using one frequency for transmission and another for reception for getting a 
QSO especially on a pile-up situation. In a pile-up the DX operator has 
difficulties to receive especially weaker stations. Of course the same applies 
to any mode. FT8 is just a bit better that many classical mode due to special 
decoding actions that are possible as very strong error correction and error 
detection are used. In addition FT8 provides pan (skimmer) reception making 
split working really comfortable!

The relevant issue in the split operation was different Rx and Tx frequencies 
and that was made possible by use of two VFOs. Computers were used for QSO 
logging and control of radios were made possible by CAT control to support 
split working. Now WSJT-X started to use 'Split operation' to describe the 
split control action, BUT used to compensate the split by changing audio. That 
for sure caused confusion, including me in first. There should be a 'warning' 
in the user guide, hi!


Well we all agree the Transceiver CP > VFO frequency & the modulating 
audio frequency = the usb frequency transmitted  and received by others.


Split, or Fake alters the radio TX CP frequency to force modulating 
audio frequency within the best passband window 1500 - 2000 Hz. *


The audio is not best described compensating the split, but rather the 
split/fake frequency shift compensating the good audio frequency


 maintained to maintain the set TX marker point. I do not see why it is 
confusing when you understand why it is done re *.


Anyone working 'split' DXpeditions surely should not have lost any of 
that knowledge by using wsjtx splt-rig/fake operation to maintain a good 
level/quality signal.


The manual should emphasize the reason & benefit to audio quality rather 
getting hung up on the word 'split'.


The thing is with CAT control, it is done automatic by wsjtx, and the 
operator  can just concentrate on making contacts.





My earlier comments refute the claim that the green marker is a rx frequency,
when the program is receiving the whole pan bandwidth,
and the rx marker is just a decode filter separating that traffic from the rest,
such that there is no audio split when you are receiving at the same point that
your tx mark sits, regardless of where you place it on the pan.

Well, the pan is a good tool to describe the split working. Let's take a DX 
station operating at 1600 Hz on the pan (green goalpost position) and there are 
100 station trying to call it. If those stations use single frequency working 
(non-split), then they don't need to use 'split operation' as there Tx (red 
goalpost) is at 1600 Hz. Would the DX station decode all those 100 stations! If 
wsjt-x manages to decode, say four of those, what is the probability that in 
the next reception time-slot the same or at least the one he answered to will 
be decoded?


I never claimed 100 stations on top of each other on same timeslot could 
be decoded. The law of the jungle applies there, is why many use power.


The smart thing to do is use TX hold (where split/fake is a huge 
advantage), and hangout on the less populated low section or high 
section of the pan,


looking for a gap. I have TX shift enabled during TX and often hit gaps 
on the fly with good success.


It is surprising how short that can be and still pass the info required 
to contact


For the DX operator, he can obtain a cue of many operators that have 
spread out on the pan all calling. I personally have worked pileups of 
up to 30 calls in list,


one after another, and sometime altering between 2 -3 for better time 
efficiency when one is lost for a couple of overs.




Now, if the 100 stations are using 'split working', then there is much higher 
probability that the DX station will decode even most of those. He will select 
one and his Rx frequency (the green goalpost) now moves to the point on the pan 
and in the next reception timeslot the selected station at the Rx frequency is 
decoded in a high probability. Of course you knew that already. BUT this is 
what most hams mean by split working.



Your choice if you work the right pane, I have worked callers direct the 
left during busy sessions and most wanted.  I don't consider working 
anyone within the pan, split working, for reasons mentioned before, as I 
receive all of the pan. I am not contained by the green marker.




Of course most of the stations calling outside 1500 to 2000 Hz Tx points will