[ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
New thread attempt number 2. (B (BThe topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone (Bforwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you (Bguys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand (Bwhat you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, (Brace, and class you would be. (B (Bhttp://twinrose.net/dandchar.php (B (BIt decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know (Bbut what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. (B (BCousin Bill (B[EMAIL PROTECTED] (B"Our country, right or wrong. When (Bright, to be kept right. When wrong, (Bto be put right." -- Carl Schurz (B (B// (B/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B/ (B--^ (BThis email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BEASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 (BOr send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BTOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! (Bhttp://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html (B--^
[ZION] Thrift!
Hello fellow Zionistas, A little more than eight years ago we (My wife and I, and actually it was mostly my wife's idea) purchased an old 1979 Ford Pickup with a fairly new engine for $800.00. The pickup was used quite often, to get me to and from work, and for various and sundry hauling projects. Other than new tires, a new battery, a new fan belt, and changing the oil occasionally, absolutely nothing was done to the pickup--not even a tune-up grin. It was a lean mean hauling machine. Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21 speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar thrift stories to tell? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
At 05:41 AM 11/8/2003, Cousin Bill wrote: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. Hmm. I turned out as a Lawful Good Halfling Fighter Monk. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
Cousin Bill wrote: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. I'm a neutral, good, human, fighter, ranger. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
Steven Montgomery wrote: Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21 speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar thrift stories to tell? In 1975 I bought a 1964 Oldsmobile Cutlass for a hundred dollars. Fours years and 40,000 miles later I sold it for 30 dollars to a junk man. During that 4 years I did all the work on it myself. The only time I ever took it to a mechanic was for a smog inspection certificate. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
And I'm a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Bard. . . val On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:41:29 +0900 Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
At 11:30 AM 11/8/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21 speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar thrift stories to tell? In 1975 I bought a 1964 Oldsmobile Cutlass for a hundred dollars. Fours years and 40,000 miles later I sold it for 30 dollars to a junk man. During that 4 years I did all the work on it myself. The only time I ever took it to a mechanic was for a smog inspection certificate. --JWR Another time (Somewhere between 1992 and 1995) I bought a used Datsun B-210 (I don't remember the year) for $350.00. After driving it for five years, with absolutely no maintenance on it except new tires and a new battery, I gave it away to a kid in the neighborhood. I figured that if the original amount was spread out over those five years I spent less than $6.00 a month. What's more, every year my taxes and insurance was much lower than if I owned a new car. Unless one can really afford a new car I don't see the benefit to owning one. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] FW: This is Me
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 7, 2003 4:59 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: This is Me I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women, favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never sit quite easy in the saddle. I should be more comfortable. I was born here. My dad was born here, my grandfather was born here, my great grandfather came here 3 weeks before the main body of pioneer settlers led by the town's founder, C.O. Card. (Hence the name Cardston). So this place is in my blood and in my bones, it's my home. I left Cardston to go to school and on a mission in France for the minimum time. I was away for 8 years and came home a newly qualified lawyer, with a wonderful wife and three young children (operative word, young, although one of them would die of SIDS within a month of our coming back to Cardston, which humbled and strengthened me more than anything else in all my life) with the audacity to open my own firm. That was in 1975. I've been here ever since although I did have a partner for a few years, but times got tough and he moved back to the city to seek a fortune. There is still no fortune here to even bother to seek. I have no business ambitions whatsoever. Every financial investment that I have ever made has been a disaster. I enjoy my life, but I have little of this life's things and I have no desire to have any more than I have, so I'm happy. Most of our kids are grown now. The caboose is only 10 though and that provides endless enjoyment for his older siblings. I have a daughter, our oldest, who owns the house directly next door to my own. That provides me with endless opportunities to fix up and maintain another house and yard. That daughter remains unmarried and has been teaching school for about 8 years. She's the most valiant wonderful soul that I know. And also, perhaps, as disappointed a person as there is on this earth. She's the Young Women's president in our ward. My next son is in Kansas. He's working on a PhD. in Public Administration. He has two boys and a lovely energetic wife. They are too far away to my liking and he has just started the program and will be gone for 4 years at least. Our next daughter is married to a lawyer who works in Salt Lake as a bankruptcy Attorney. They live in Springville just now but hope to move to Bountiful soon so he can be more available to help his wife, my daughter, with their 4 young children. Young, again, being the operative word. My next child is the colourful, vibrant and opinionated Ginger. She's in nursing school and seems to love it. In a year she hopes to graduate and go out into an exciting world of opportunities. The next, coming after a 13 year gap, is the 10 year old, who loves chiasmus and Sponge Bob Square Pants with equal intensity. My wife Betty is a woman of marvelous spiritual gifts. She senses and responds to others needs with uncanny and inexplicable ability. If there is a need, she *knows* about it without having to be told. It's fun to watch, but it's hard on her. There is more need out there than any one of us could ever meet. So she's always torn. She's a cub leader just now, but has been president of every women's organization in the ward at one time or another so she has some leadership ability in addition to her high levels of compassion and perception. She's a convert to the church, having been baptized right after her 18th birthday (a parental condition). No one else from her side of the family has accepted the church. She dumped the guy that introduced her to the church, while he was on his mission, to marry me. I don't think it was a character flaw, it was a brave act on her part, sort of like Nephi cutting off Laban's head, it seemed wrong in most moral paradigms, but apparently the Lord wanted it to happen, so she has never looked back. And I was pleased then, and even more so now. My hobby is trying out new hobbies. I've tried a lot of fun things, from moto cross racing to rock polishing. I read the scriptures a lot, I waste enormous amounts of time on the Internet, and I publish a weekly family newsletter that has now been going for over 490 consecutive weeks. I do some singing, have dabbled in poetry, written a few songs, acted in some plays and done some other writing for my own and other's pleasure. I try to be faithful in the church and have served as a bishop, ordinance worker, high councilor, seminary teacher, and a host of other things. Recently I was the assistant ward choir director when Elder Hafen came to town and rooted me out of that cushy job to make me the stake president. Fortunately my talents are
[ZION] This is Me
I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women, favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never sit quite easy in the saddle. I should be more comfortable. I was born here. My dad was born here, my grandfather was born here, my great grandfather came here 3 weeks before the main body of pioneer settlers led by the town's founder, C.O. Card. (Hence the name Cardston). So this place is in my blood and in my bones, it's my home. I left Cardston to go to school and on a mission in France for the minimum time. I was away for 8 years and came home a newly qualified lawyer, with a wonderful wife and three young children (operative word, young, although one of them would die of SIDS within a month of our coming back to Cardston, which humbled and strengthened me more than anything else in all my life) with the audacity to open my own firm. That was in 1975. I've been here ever since although I did have a partner for a few years, but times got tough and he moved back to the city to seek a fortune. There is still no fortune here to even bother to seek. I have no business ambitions whatsoever. Every financial investment that I have ever made has been a disaster. I enjoy my life, but I have little of this life's things and I have no desire to have any more than I have, so I'm happy. Most of our kids are grown now. The caboose is only 10 though and that provides endless enjoyment for his older siblings. I have a daughter, our oldest, who owns the house directly next door to my own. That provides me with endless opportunities to fix up and maintain another house and yard. That daughter remains unmarried and has been teaching school for about 8 years. She's the most valiant wonderful soul that I know. And also, perhaps, as disappointed a person as there is on this earth. She's the Young Women's president in our ward. My next son is in Kansas. He's working on a PhD. in Public Administration. He has two boys and a lovely energetic wife. They are too far away to my liking and he has just started the program and will be gone for 4 years at least. Our next daughter is married to a lawyer who works in Salt Lake as a bankruptcy Attorney. They live in Springville just now but hope to move to Bountiful soon so he can be more available to help his wife, my daughter, with their 4 young children. Young, again, being the operative word. My next child is the colourful, vibrant and opinionated Ginger. She's in nursing school and seems to love it. In a year she hopes to graduate and go out into an exciting world of opportunities. The next, coming after a 13 year gap, is the 10 year old, who loves chiasmus and Sponge Bob Square Pants with equal intensity. My wife Betty is a woman of marvelous spiritual gifts. She senses and responds to others needs with uncanny and inexplicable ability. If there is a need, she *knows* about it without having to be told. It's fun to watch, but it's hard on her. There is more need out there than any one of us could ever meet. So she's always torn. She's a cub leader just now, but has been president of every women's organization in the ward at one time or another so she has some leadership ability in addition to her high levels of compassion and perception. She's a convert to the church, having been baptized right after her 18th birthday (a parental condition). No one else from her side of the family has accepted the church. She dumped the guy that introduced her to the church, while he was on his mission, to marry me. I don't think it was a character flaw, it was a brave act on her part, sort of like Nephi cutting off Laban's head, it seemed wrong in most moral paradigms, but apparently the Lord wanted it to happen, so she has never looked back. And I was pleased then, and even more so now. My hobby is trying out new hobbies. I've tried a lot of fun things, from moto cross racing to rock polishing. I read the scriptures a lot, I waste enormous amounts of time on the Internet, and I publish a weekly family newsletter that has now been going for over 490 consecutive weeks. I do some singing, have dabbled in poetry, written a few songs, acted in some plays and done some other writing for my own and other's pleasure. I try to be faithful in the church and have served as a bishop, ordinance worker, high councilor, seminary teacher, and a host of other things. Recently I was the assistant ward choir director when Elder Hafen came to town and rooted me out of that cushy job to make me the stake president. Fortunately my talents are more suited to stake presidency things than to leading a choir. So a lot of people have benefited from Elder Hafen's choice, not the least of which is
Re: [ZION] This is Me
Tom Matkin wrote: I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women, favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never sit quite easy in the saddle. Years ago in my early 20's I wore a Stetson business fedora. Since then I have either been hatless or worn a baseball cap. Then last Christmas my wife bought me a fedora. Inside it proclaims that it is an official Indiana Jones hat, the same style he wore in the movies. I like it a lot, but it is wool felt. It isn't fur felt, and it doesn't have a satin lining, so it isn't the best hat I've every owned. I have ambitions to own an even better hat, by and by, maybe a homburg but probably another fedora. Where do you get your hats? Here in Ketchikan the selection is dismal. Do you buy any of them on the Internet. If so, what are some of your favorite websites? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] This is Me
Thanks Tom. Now I now more perfectly what a great man you are. -- Steven Montgomery At 04:59 PM 11/7/2003, you wrote: I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. rest snipped, for brevity -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Who was Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon tells us he was of the seed of Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and hence he was selected as Abraham was to fulfil a work upon the earth. God chose this young man. He was ignorant of letters as the world has it, but the most profoundly learned and intelligent man that I ever met in my life, and I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles, been on different continents and mingled among all classes and creeds of people, yet I have never met a man so intelligent as he was. And where did he get his intelligence from? Not from books, not from the logic or science or philosophy of the day, but he obtained it through the revelation of God made known to him through the medium of the everlasting gospel.John Taylor // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but what the hey. Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial Kingdom. George, This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial Kingdom. I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the church of teaching false doctrine. Section 131 is a seminary scripture mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary and institute and all correlated lesson manuals. For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the brethren from attack on the ZION list. Here's what Rene found out in his research: I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used celestial glory interchangeably with heaven (i.e. all three kingdoms of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith. Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes: ** I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14th chap., 2nd v.) Paul says, There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1st Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And hence is the glory of the sun. You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the resurrection of the deaduntil the perfection of the remainder; for at the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us? I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in the morn of the celestial world. Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844 ** Here we see Joseph use the expressions celestial world, celestial glory and celestial kingdom, and as far as I can judge, his words only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the same thing. So next, I started searching Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. There are 16 occurences of the phrase celestial glory, one of them being the KFD. The others are as follows: Section One 1830-34, p.32 The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians; but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us, to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is prepared for the children of God. Section Two 1834-37, p.47 Impressed with the truth of these facts what can be the feelings of those who have been partakers of the heavenly gift and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but what the hey. Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial Kingdom. George, This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial Kingdom. I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the church of teaching false doctrine. Section 131 is a seminary scripture mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary and institute and all correlated lesson manuals. For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the brethren from attack on the ZION list. Here's what Rene found out in his research: I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used celestial glory interchangeably with heaven (i.e. all three kingdoms of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith. Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes: ** I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14th chap., 2nd v.) Paul says, There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1st Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And hence is the glory of the sun. You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the resurrection of the deaduntil the perfection of the remainder; for at the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us? I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in the morn of the celestial world. Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844 ** Here we see Joseph use the expressions celestial world, celestial glory and celestial kingdom, and as far as I can judge, his words only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the same thing. So next, I started searching Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. There are 16 occurences of the phrase celestial glory, one of them being the KFD. The others are as follows: Section One 1830-34, p.32 The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians; but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us, to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is prepared for the children of God. Section Two 1834-37, p.47 Impressed with the truth of these facts what can be the feelings of those who have been partakers of the heavenly gift and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Who but those that can see the awful precipice upon which the world of mankind stands in this generation, can labor in the vineyard of the Lord without feeling
[ZION] Introducing John W. Redelfs
I am 58 years old, the father of three children, and the husband of one wife. My home for the last sixteen years has been Ketchikan, Alaska where my career has been househusband and home schooler. Earlier in my life I worked as a laborer, salesman, logger, oil field roughneck, campus police officer, locksmith, stock broker and other occupations too numerous to mention. I have attended college, but I never obtained a degree. In addition to Omaha I have lived in Rochester, Minnesota; El Paso, Texas; Chicago, Illinois; Salt Lake City, Utah; Berkeley, California; Los Angeles, California; Houston, Texas; and many other place too numerous to mention. I was in the US Marine Corps in 1964-65. I joined the Church as a senior in high school in 1963. After a five year struggle I finally overcame my Word of Wisdom problems, and I have been active since 1968. I was ordained a Priest in 1965, an Elder in 1971, and an High Priest in 1996. I have served in many Church callings including but not limited to Ward Clerk, District Clerk, Elders Quorum Counselor, Elders Quorum President, Sunday School President, Sacrament Meeting Chorister, High Councilor, Early Morning Seminary Teacher, and High Priest Group Leader. Currently I am the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Ketchikan Alaska Ward Sunday School. Esperanza and I married in the Los Angeles temple in 1978, over 25 years ago. We have three children. Sara, born in 1979, is currently studying at the University of Massachusetts in Boston to obtain a bachelor's degree in registered nursing. Her husband is in his third year of dental school at Boston University. Rebekah, who was born in 1981, is living in Juneau, Alaska where her husband runs the computer help desk at the University of Alaska in Juneau. On September 5th they had a baby girl named Julia who is my first grandchild. My son Jack, who was born in 1984 and will be 20 years old in February, has finally left home and is also in Juneau where he is preparing for a mission. Now that Jack is gone, I'm struggling a little with empty nest syndrome. From the age of eight I have been in love with libraries, used bookstores, and recently the Internet. My hobbies have varied widely over the years and include photography, amateur astronomy, coin collecting, skin diving, backpacking, fishing, hiking, acting in collegiate and community theater, singing in collegiate and community choirs, reading science fiction and fantasy, and for the last ten years: running email discussion lists for Mormons on the Internet. Of them all, this last one has been the most satisfying and the source of countless hours of enjoyment and a number of lifelong friends. My wife hopes to retire in about three years. We hope to serve missions for the Church if our health permits. In the meantime, I'll prepare for my mission with scripture and gospel study, and by continuing to run these email lists. Oh, my all-time favorite authors are: Edgar Rice Burroughs, Orson Scott Card, William Shakespeare, Alexandre Dumas, and Tennessee Williams. My all-time favorite movies are: Star Wars, Zefirelli's Romeo and Juliet, Zefirelli's Jesus of Nazareth, Ben Hur, and Blade Runner. My favorite dessert is chocolate mousse cheesecake. My favorite color is yellow. And my favorite firearm is the 1911A1 Colt .45 ACP. And now you know more about me than you probably want to know. If I've left anything out, just ask. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Feng Shui?
It is an oriental method of arranging your furniture so you get to heaven quicker. Or, maybe it is to allow the right vibes to flow through your house. Yeah, something like that. My wife owns both a book on Feng Shui and a parody called Wrong Shui (which I got for her, of course). K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Jim asked: What is feng shui? How does it reconcile with living the gospel of Christ? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Declaration #2
Ah, but you stopped short in your reading of 131. he cannot have an increase is followed by worlds without end. To me, this not suggest forever, but rather a very long time, seemingly to the mortal mind an eternity. But then, the term Eternal has an interesting definition in DC 19, where it is one of God's names. So even if the scriptures said that a person was eternally damned, it does not necessarily mean forever, but rather is damned by God. Aren't word definitions interesting? ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Sandy wrote: But in DC 131, it says over in verse 4, referencing those who do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, He may enter into the other [meaning one of the lower heavens or degrees], but that is the end of his kingdom: *he cannot have an increase*. That strongly suggests to me an inability to progress, or at a very minimum, the inability to have infinite might or dominion. This is despite the fact that we're still speaking of the celestial heavens--not of the terrestial or telestial worlds. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. Gary Mormon Doctrine tells us about sons of perdition: Disobedience See CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, REBELLION. Nonconformity to divine standards of personal righteousness constitutes disobedience. All men are either obedient or disobedient; they either keep the commandments or fail to do so; either neglect or refusal to conform to gospel standards classifies a person as a rebel. Disobedience is of the devil, That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the traditions of their fathers. (DC 93:39) By disobedience men gain membership in the kingdom of the devil, as he operates it on earth, in the spirit world, and among the resurrected rebels of eternity. The most violent and destructive of all disobedience is the complete and open rebellion against light and truth which makes a person a son of perdition. Those who love darkness rather than light, their deeds being evil, receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (DC 29:45 in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, we read: In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning destruction (DC 76:; moses 5:Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called sons of perdition. 1391Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment ( Ne. 28:23; DC 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. (DC 88:24). Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain filthy still (DC 29:44DC 29:44;DC 88:35 88:35). It is revealed that it had been better for them never to have been born (DC 76:32DC 76:32). AND Unpardonable Sin 1499The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (matt. 12:31matt. 12:32Matt. 12:31-32; jacob 7:19Jacob 7:19; alma 39:6Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (DC 76:43DC 76:43). 1499The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him . he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it (TPJS, p. 358; cf. heb. 10:26heb. 10:27heb. 10:28heb. 10:29Heb. 10:26-29). AND Ultimate and total damnation comes only to the devil and his angels, who rebelled in the first estate, and to the sons of perdition, who are damned eternally and denied entrance into any kingdom of glory hereafter (DC 76:32). The sons of perdition are those guilty of unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (DC 132:27); cf. mark 3:29), which includes the willful denial of the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (DC 76:35). And All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan (DC 76:110). Thus is the Father's plan of agency fulfilled. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /
[ZION] Val's dating
Val, I'll see what I can find down here in the Indy area. I hope it is close enough for you. ;-) I know they have a decent singles program here, what with two stakes to choose from. Maybe you ought to consider coming down for some of the events. If interested, let me know and I'll get you in touch with some of the singles here. Gary // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] This is Me
. Where do you get your hats? Here in Ketchikan the selection is dismal. Do you buy any of them on the Internet. If so, what are some of your favorite websites? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I've done a lot of window shopping for hats on the web. There's lots of sites, you can find them by searching for fedora hats on Google. But I've never bought any that way. I just snoop around for them. You don't find them in big department stores or even in good men's wear stores. There was a western wear store in Lethbridge that had a little fedora sideline going on, and I bought one or two there, but I noticed the other day that they are out of business. I bought a nice hat at Waterton Lakes National Park last summer. I have a guy that runs an old time drygoods store in Cardston that will order them for me and he's got me a couple. It's about time I put the bee on him again I think. I had to loan my dressiest fedora to an old guy in the stake. He had his hat stolen at church and he was so distressed because of it that we started to fear for his life. He's over ninety, so his longevity is in question in any event. He couldn't find a replacement and he just went into a terrible funk, but the loaner hat has revived him, and it's no problem for me, I've got others. Tom. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A reading list
I have not got to that part yet. I am only to the initial baptism section. So far though, I find it very good, although sometimes not as deep in background quotes as I might have expected. He is on another list I participate in and I may yet have some questions for him. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:51 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] A reading list I have Barry's book. It is very good, with one exception. I think the Baptism for the Dead section is a little weak. But that isn't through any fault of his. The reality is, there isn't much ancient information whatsoever on baptisms for the dead. His stuff on an anthropomorphic God is excellent, but I would have included a little bit more information from his sources in that area. Gary George Cobabe wrote: Ah - a topic that will not engender evil emotions. I just finished reading By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens. A excellant book regarding the history and perspectives of the Book of Mormon from historical as well as non-mormon perspective. Chapter Eight on Dialogic Revelation and the Book of Mormon's application of the principles was truly eye-opening. I have just started Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and Early Christianity By Barry Bickmore. It looks at the early Christian Church and describes how it was corrupted and then how the early doctrines compare so favorably with our current doctrines. It looks very good. George - Original Message - From: Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ZION [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:01 AM Subject: [ZION] A reading list I'm sorry to rain on everyone's parade. I see that many people enjoy discussing the gospel. I do not qualify to join such discussions. I just don't have the knowledge everyone else has. So I decided to start a new thread. In the past, my efforts have had mixed results. At times I have started threads that have lasted weeks. Other times my post seems to be the only one, so I suppose it could not even be called a thread. We shall see how this one works out. Please forgive the lightheartedness. I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life out there beyond the confines of the earth. So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only send the password to the old address (which has since been cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two and three times as fast as my old computer. Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email
Re: [ZION] Feng Shui?
Not just the furniture, but the entire orientation of the home, The doors, the windows, etc. I had my friend from Hawaii describe how a buyer for his home had to have the feng shui expert come in and approve the home before the prospective buyer would go any further. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: [ZION] Feng Shui? It is an oriental method of arranging your furniture so you get to heaven quicker. Or, maybe it is to allow the right vibes to flow through your house. Yeah, something like that. My wife owns both a book on Feng Shui and a parody called Wrong Shui (which I got for her, of course). K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Jim asked: What is feng shui? How does it reconcile with living the gospel of Christ? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom says For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. I am going to reply to this one time and then be done. As has been the case from the first, Tom, you do not yet understand the questions I have regarding this issue. One of the problems we have between us is that I have seen other examples of where the brethren have been wrong on an issue, whereas apparently you feel that if you can just find the right quote that will answer the question for everyone. That does not mean that I do not support them in any way, for I am able to separate the callings and the keys, etc, from the problematic teachings that do sometimes occur. That does not mean that you need to defend the brethren against that at all, for I raise my hand in sustaining them every chance I get. I even confessed that if I were in your stake I would be able to sustain you, even as you railed against me. In the Catholic faith they beleive in an infallible Pope but never act that way, in the LDS Church we beleive in a fallible prophet, but treat his/their every word as absolute truth. I have said that I beleive that there are certain tenets of our faith that are in conflict with the idea of sub-kingdoms in the Celestial Kingdom. You have never allowed me to get to the point of asking those questions and expressing those concerns. You have never allowed the discussion to get anywhere before you begin calling me to repentance. If I have concerns then it would not hurt anyone to be aware of them and to take a crack at helping me resolve them. I have come to the conclusion that the several points of doctrine that conflict with this idea are far more important that the belief in Celestial sub-kingdoms. Given that I can comfortably read sec 131, and all of Rene' quotes a bit different that you do, I have come to the conclusion that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted. In my mind this preserves the integrity of the scriptures and gives full credence to the atonement of the Saviour. I have agreed to provide another on this list with a short paper outlining the conflicts I have. I will not be posting this to the list and will only share it on the stipulation that there is the understanding that it is not a argument for agreement, but rather a request for input. If you, or anyone else, would like a copy please let me know with an email direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It will be a few days. It would appear that my desire to find a list that can discuss doctrine of the church with a bit of latitude in the questions allowed has not been satisfied with this list. That's OK, it just has taken a bit of time to realize that this is the case. I am sorry for the upsetting nature of my posts. It would appear that I have greater faith in the posters on this and other lists than others do. Best wishes to all, and to all a good night. George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but what the hey. Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial Kingdom. George, This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial Kingdom. I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the church of teaching false doctrine. Section 131 is a seminary scripture mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary and institute and all correlated lesson manuals. For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the brethren from attack on the ZION list. Here's what Rene found out in his research: I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used celestial glory interchangeably with heaven (i.e. all three kingdoms
Re: [ZION] Introducing John W. Redelfs
John W. Redelfs wrote: My wife hopes to retire in about three years. We hope to serve missions for the Church if our health permits. In the meantime, I'll prepare for my mission with scripture and gospel study, and by continuing to run these email lists. So, whose going to take over the email list when you bug out (on your mission in three years)? Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
If you want to know whos King, whos God in America, look at your checkbook. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet. --Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948) -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 9:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons At 05:41 AM 11/8/2003, Cousin Bill wrote: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. Hmm. I turned out as a Lawful Good Halfling Fighter Monk. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
Back in the 70's I bought an MG Midget. It was new and I paid too much fir it, but it was a really cool car. It was fast, cornered like an expensive sports car and economical on the gas bill. It was the most fun I ever had driving. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Thrift! At 11:30 AM 11/8/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21 speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar thrift stories to tell? In 1975 I bought a 1964 Oldsmobile Cutlass for a hundred dollars. Fours years and 40,000 miles later I sold it for 30 dollars to a junk man. During that 4 years I did all the work on it myself. The only time I ever took it to a mechanic was for a smog inspection certificate. --JWR Another time (Somewhere between 1992 and 1995) I bought a used Datsun B-210 (I don't remember the year) for $350.00. After driving it for five years, with absolutely no maintenance on it except new tires and a new battery, I gave it away to a kid in the neighborhood. I figured that if the original amount was spread out over those five years I spent less than $6.00 a month. What's more, every year my taxes and insurance was much lower than if I owned a new car. Unless one can really afford a new car I don't see the benefit to owning one. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] This is Me
I forgot to mention that in Houston you just go to the nearest Boot shop ant shop for your kind of hat, unless it's some kind of yankee hat you want. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both. People capable of true vision, know that the mind is empty.--Bodhidharma -Original Message- From: John A. English, n/OEF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 10:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] This is Me I like a good stetson. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF Life is a romantic business. It is painting a picture, not doing a sum -- but you have to make the romance, and it will come to the question how much fire you have in your belly. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] This is Me Tom Matkin wrote: I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women, favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never sit quite easy in the saddle. Years ago in my early 20's I wore a Stetson business fedora. Since then I have either been hatless or worn a baseball cap. Then last Christmas my wife bought me a fedora. Inside it proclaims that it is an official Indiana Jones hat, the same style he wore in the movies. I like it a lot, but it is wool felt. It isn't fur felt, and it doesn't have a satin lining, so it isn't the best hat I've every owned. I have ambitions to own an even better hat, by and by, maybe a homburg but probably another fedora. Where do you get your hats? Here in Ketchikan the selection is dismal. Do you buy any of them on the Internet. If so, what are some of your favorite websites? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] This is I (sorry that I kin speekee the English)
Jon Spencer Age(less): 55 Joined Church at age 45 Years until we go on a mission: 5 Years until our youngest goes on a mission: 5 Married to Nancy (boy, did I fool her!) Children: 2 David - 17 - leaves 4/14/2004 for Fort Benning - Basic/AIT, then jump school, then RIP (Ranger Indoctrination Program), then Ranger training, then probably the Middle East, then Special Farces if he gets his way. Michael - 14 - computer geek Occupation: Computer Security Architect, currently Manager, Software Development and CS Architect Part time occupation: My business card says Manual Labor, Computer Geek, General Busybody for my wife's LDS bookstore (and that covers most of it, except I also do the accounting) Former Occupations: shine shoes, pull weeds, deliver papers, bag boy, store clerk, clean bathrooms all night at Cal State Northridge (girls bathrooms were much messier than boys), Car Rental agent, computer consultant, business doctor, etc. Recently unemployed for 13 months (glad we followed the prophet's counsel and bought a house for cash that needed a lot of work, rather than building one and having a mortgage!) Current callings/assignments: Scout leader (Teachers), Seminary Teacher Past Callings: Asst. Cub Master (before I joined the Church), Cub Master, Chorister, Ward Mission Leader, Primary Worker, 2nd/1st Counselor EQ Presidency, Seminary Supervisor, 11 year old Scout leader, FQ Temple worker. Favorite Scripture: Alma 26:22 (starts out with Yea) Hobbys: Reading (6+ books/month) backpacking, backpacking, cycling, canoeing (whatever I can do with my boys and the scouts), renovating houses and bookstores (the last two: one was a bar, and one a set of offices for the Catholic Church) I have been blessed well beyond what I deserve with my wife and family, and my employment. My wife and I are really looking forward to going on a mission, since we both joined the Church as adults (she 12 years before she met me, inactive for 11 of those years, waiting to marry me and become active again, dragging me with her). We met through a video dating service (long and fun story). She wants to do a family history mission, while I want to do a foreign mission where we can be out with the missionaries who are a long way from the mission home. We'll do several; hers first. Or perhaps, whatever the Lord needs for us to do. I am the 2nd of five boys. My early years were quite unstable, with an alcoholic father and a mother with psychiatric problems (Aha! That explains it! you say). But our parents loved us, so that went a long way in helping me cope. My other brothers weren't quite as successful. However, 4 out of 5 of us are doing quite well, thank you, and the fifth (# 4) disappeared from view 20 years ago. We have been unable to either find him or a record of his death. Sigh ... At age 12, I figured out that mainstream Christianity was false, and went the next 33 years looking for the Truth. I believed that the Bible was mythology. The only thing that I knew about the Church was that I had a good feeling when I went to the visitor center in SLC on a bad ski day at age 21. I told my conversion story on this list many years ago, but I will not take the time now to repeat it. The main action scene of the story is that one moment I was standing, holding the hands of my two boys, looking at the spires on the Washington DC temple, knowing that Mormons were nice folks but they believed in mythology, and five minutes later I knew that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon was true, with no interactions with any temporal beings. I call it My 2x4 to the Side of My Head Conversion Story. I am not ready to die yet, being that there are many things that I have promised the Lord that I would do, that I am not doing. I guess that I am better than a few years ago, but that will ring rather hollow if I have to explain why I am NOT doing all the things that I know I should be doing, and certainly can do. Oh, did I say that I have a Ph.D. in Procrastination Science? What else? Probably lots, but this is enough for now. Except: I love my Heavenly Father and all of his helpers. I am so grateful for men like Gordon B. Hinckley, and for the way they have lived their lives. If they can, so can I. I have the best calling in the world - the one the Lord wants me to do! I have a strong testimony that perfection is a long, slow, eternal process, at least the way that I am going about it. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
Thrift: We buy new cars at the end of the model year, for cash. No car payments. We drive them until they die. My 1997 Chrysler Town and Country MiniVan ($28K new) has 175,000+ miles, with no major work (water pump, brakes, minor things). I think that this is because a lot of the miles are put on for Scouts, and a bunch driving out to SLC for the LDS Booksellers Convention a few times. If the engine dies, there's the Engine Exchange. Same for the transmission (175,000 miles on a Chrysler MV transmission, and still going strong? - Clearly divine intervention!). Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
I'm a lawful good elf fighter. Ha! I said I didn't like lawyers, but I guess I got lawful because I choose justice. I'm not a DD player, but I do play Magic the Gathering, much to my husband's chagrin. My boys got me going. My favorite creatures are elves - I love elf decks, even though they aren't the best or strongest. What an interesting survey. Rusty And I'm a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Bard. . . val On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:41:29 +0900 Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
