Tom says "For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine."
I am going to reply to this one time and then be done. As has been the case from the first, Tom, you do not yet understand the questions I have regarding this issue. One of the problems we have between us is that I have seen other examples of where the "brethren" have been wrong on an issue, whereas apparently you feel that if you can just find the right quote that will answer the question for everyone. That does not mean that I do not support them in any way, for I am able to separate the callings and the keys, etc, from the problematic teachings that do sometimes occur. That does not mean that you need to defend the brethren against that at all, for I raise my hand in sustaining them every chance I get. I even confessed that if I were in your stake I would be able to sustain you, even as you railed against me. In the Catholic faith they beleive in an infallible Pope but never act that way, in the LDS Church we beleive in a fallible prophet, but treat his/their every word as absolute truth. I have said that I beleive that there are certain tenets of our faith that are in conflict with the idea of sub-kingdoms in the Celestial Kingdom. You have never allowed me to get to the point of asking those questions and expressing those concerns. You have never allowed the discussion to get anywhere before you begin calling me to repentance. If I have concerns then it would not hurt anyone to be aware of them and to take a crack at helping me resolve them. I have come to the conclusion that the several points of doctrine that conflict with this idea are far more important that the belief in Celestial sub-kingdoms. Given that I can comfortably read sec 131, and all of Rene' quotes a bit different that you do, I have come to the conclusion that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted. In my mind this preserves the integrity of the scriptures and gives full credence to the atonement of the Saviour. I have agreed to provide another on this list with a short paper outlining the conflicts I have. I will not be posting this to the list and will only share it on the stipulation that there is the understanding that it is not a argument for agreement, but rather a request for input. If you, or anyone else, would like a copy please let me know with an email direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It will be a few days. It would appear that my desire to find a list that can discuss doctrine of the church with a bit of latitude in the questions allowed has not been satisfied with this list. That's OK, it just has taken a bit of time to realize that this is the case. I am sorry for the upsetting nature of my posts. It would appear that I have greater faith in the posters on this and other lists than others do. Best wishes to all, and to all a good night. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Matkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 > I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but > what > the hey. > > Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial > Kingdom. > > George, This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial Kingdom. I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the church of teaching false doctrine. Section 131 is a seminary scripture mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary and institute and all correlated lesson manuals. For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the brethren from attack on the ZION list. Here's what Rene found out in his research: I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used "celestial glory" interchangeably with "heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith. Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes: ****************************************************** I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.) Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And hence is the glory of the sun. You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the resurrection of the dead-until the perfection of the remainder; for at the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us? I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in the morn of the celestial world. Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844 ****************************************************** Here we see Joseph use the expressions "celestial world", "celestial glory" and "celestial kingdom", and as far as I can judge, his words only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the same thing. So next, I started searching "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith". There are 16 occurences of the phrase "celestial glory", one of them being the KFD. The others are as follows: "Section One 1830-34, p.32 The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians; but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us, to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is prepared for the children of God." "Section Two 1834-37, p.47 Impressed with the truth of these facts what can be the feelings of those who have been partakers of the heavenly gift and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Who but those that can see the awful precipice upon which the world of mankind stands in this generation, can labor in the vineyard of the Lord without feeling a sense of the world's deplorable situation? Who but those who have duly considered the condescension of the Father of our spirits, in providing a sacrifice for His creatures, a plan of redemption, a power of atonement, a scheme of salvation, having as its great objects, the bringing of men back into the presence of the King of heaven, crowning them in the celestial glory, and making them heirs with the Son to that inheritance which is incorruptible, undefiled, and which fadeth not away--who but such can realize the importance of a perfect walk before all men, and a diligence in calling upon all men to partake of these blessings?! How indescribably glorious are these things to mankind! Of a truth they may be considered tidings of great joy to all people; and tidings, too, that ought to fill the earth and cheer the heart of every one when sounded in his ears. The reflection that everyone is to receive according to his own diligence and perseverance while in the vineyard, ought to inspire everyone who is called to be a minister of these glad tidings, to so improve his talent that he may gain other talents, that when the Master sits down to take an account of the conduct of His servants, it may be said, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things; I will now make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." "We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect; and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider that this is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment: he must have been instructed in the government and laws of that kingdom by proper degrees, until his mind is capable in some measure of comprehending the propriety, justice, equality, and consistency of the same. For further instruction we refer you to Deut. 32, where the Lord says, that Jacob is the lot of His inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the wast! e, howling wilderness; He led him about, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye, etc.; which will show the force of the last item advanced, that it is necessary for men to receive an understanding concerning the laws of the heavenly kingdom, before they are permitted to enter it: we mean the celestial glory. So dissimilar are the governments of men, and so divers are their laws, from the government and laws of heaven, that a man, for instance, hearing that there was a country on this globe called the United States of North America, could take his journey to this place without first learning the laws of governments; but the conditions of God's kingdom are such, that all who are made partakers of that glory, are under the necessity of learning something respecting it previous to their entering into it. But the foreigner can come to this country without knowing a syllable of its laws, or even subscribing to obey them after he arrives. Why? Because the government o! f the United States does not require it: it only requires an obedience to its laws after the individual has arrived within its jurisdiction." "What Is the Purpose of Existence? Section Two 1834-37, p.56 Think for a moment, of the greatness of the Being who created the Universe; and ask, could He be so inconsistent with His own character, as to leave man without a law or rule by which to regulate his conduct, after placing him here, where, according to the formation of his nature he must in a short period sink into the dust? Is there nothing further; is there no existence beyond this veil of death which is so suddenly to be cast over all of us? If there is, why not that Being who had power to place us here, inform us something of the hereafter? If we had power to place ourselves in this present existence, why not have power to know what shall follow when that dark veil is cast over our bodies? If in this life we receive our all; if when we crumble back to dust we are no more, from what source did we emanate, and what was the purpose of our existence? If this life were all, we should be led to query, whether or not there was really any substance in existence, and we might with ! propriety say, "Let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" But if this life is all, then why this constant toiling, why this continual warfare, and why this unceasing trouble? But this life is not all; the voice of reason, the language of inspiration, and the Spirit of the living God, our Creator, teaches us, as we hold the record of truth in our hands, that this is not the case, that this is not so; for, the heavens declare the glory of a God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork; and a moment's reflection is sufficient to teach every man of common intelligence, that all these are not the mere productions of chance, nor could they be supported by any power less than an Almighty hand; and He that can mark the power of Omnipotence, inscribed upon the heavens, can also see God's own handwriting in the sacred volume: and he who reads it oftenest will like it best, and he who is acquainted with it, will know the hand wherever he can see it; and when once discovered,! it will not only receive an acknowledgment, but an obedience to all its heavenly precepts. For a moment reflect: what could have been the purpose of our Father in giving to us a law? Was it that it might be obeyed, or disobeyed? And think further, too, not only of the propriety, but of the importance of attending to His laws in every particular. If, then, there is an importance in this respect, is there not a responsibility of great weight resting upon those who are called to declare these truths to men? Were we capable of laying any thing before you as a just comparison, we would cheerfully do it; but in this our ability fails, and we are inclined to think that man is unable, without assistance beyond what has been given to those before, of expressing in words the greatness of this important subject. We can only say, that if an anticipation of the joys of the celestial glory, as witnessed to the hearts of the humble is not sufficient, we will leave to yourselves the result o! f your own diligence; for God ere long, will call all His servants before Him, and there from His own hand they will receive a just recompense and a righteous reward for all their labors." "Section Four 1839-42, p.181 All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power. This earth will be rolled back into the presence of God, and crowned with celestial glory." "Section Four 1839-42, p.197 God has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens for instance, the oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle.3 Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God, "for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into ! the Kingdom of God," said the Savior. It is a sign and a commandment which God has set for man to enter into His kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; for God will not receive them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted, for they have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for, and give him a title to, a celestial glory; and God had decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands." "Remarks of the Prophet at Ramus--Importance of the Eternity of the Marriage Covenant Section Six 1843-44, p.300 Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory. The unpardonable sin is to shed innocent blood, or be accessory thereto. All other sins will be visited with judgment in the flesh, and the spirit being delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of the Lord Jesus. Section Six 1843-44, p.301 The way I know in whom to confide--God tells me in whom I may place confidence. The Celestial Glory Section Six 1843-44, p.301 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom: he cannot have an increase. (May 16, 1843.) DHC 5:391-2." "Section Six 1843-44, p.368 In order for you to receive your children to yourselves you must have a promise--some ordinance; some blessing, in order to ascend above principalities, or else it may be an angel. They must rise just as they died; we can there hail our lovely infants with the same glory--the same loveliness in the celestial glory, where they all enjoy alike. They differ in stature, in size, the same glorious spirit gives them the likeness of glory and bloom; the old man with his silvery hairs will glory in bloom and beauty. No man can describe it to you--no man can write it." "Eternal Glories Section Six 1843-44, p.374 Go and read the vision in the Book of Covenants. There is clearly illustrated glory upon glory--one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions. By the apostates admitting the testimony of the Doctrine and Covenants they damn themselves. Paul, what do you say? They impeached Paul and all went and left him. Paul had seven churches, and they drove him off from among them; and yet they cannot do it by me. I rejoice in that. My testimony is good." None of the above quotes furthers the assumption that CG meant "heaven" or "all three kingdoms of heaven", while at least the last quote definitely shows that JS referred to the "celestial glory" meaning "celestial kingdom". Also, the quote of which D&C 131 is a part, is really enlightening, because it first talks about "will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory", and then follows the text from D&C 131. Based on this, I do not think that there is any substance to the claim that Joseph Smith may have used "celestial glory" interchangeably with "heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms of glory). Rene =========================== René A. Krywult Tom //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^----------------------------------------------------------------
