Tom says "For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that
someone is saying that the
brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine."

I am going to reply to this one time and then be done.  As has been the case
from the first, Tom, you do not yet understand the questions I have
regarding this issue.  One of the problems we have between us is that I have
seen other examples of where the "brethren" have been wrong on an issue,
whereas apparently you feel that if you can just find the right quote that
will answer the question for everyone.  That does not mean that I do not
support them in any way, for I am able to separate the callings and the
keys, etc, from the problematic teachings that do sometimes occur.  That
does not mean that you need to defend the brethren against that at all, for
I raise my hand in sustaining them every chance I get.  I even confessed
that if I were in your stake I would be able to sustain you, even as you
railed against me.  In the Catholic faith they beleive in an infallible Pope
but never act that way, in the LDS Church we beleive in a fallible prophet,
but treat his/their every word as absolute truth.

I have said that I beleive that there are certain tenets of our faith that
are in conflict with the idea of sub-kingdoms in the Celestial Kingdom.  You
have never allowed me to get to the point of asking those questions and
expressing those concerns.  You have never allowed the discussion to get
anywhere before you begin calling me to repentance.  If I have concerns then
it would not hurt anyone to be aware of them and to take a crack at helping
me resolve them.  I have come to the conclusion that the several points of
doctrine that conflict with this idea are far more important that the belief
in Celestial sub-kingdoms.  Given that I can comfortably read sec 131, and
all of Rene' quotes a bit different that you do, I have come to the
conclusion that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted.  In my
mind this preserves the integrity of the scriptures and gives full credence
to the atonement of the Saviour.

I have agreed to provide another on this list with a short paper outlining
the conflicts I have.  I will not be posting this to the list and will only
share it on the stipulation that there is the understanding that it is not a
argument for agreement, but rather a request for input.  If you, or anyone
else, would like a copy please let me know with an email direct to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  It will be a few days.

It would appear that my desire to find a list that can discuss doctrine of
the church with a bit of latitude in the questions allowed has not been
satisfied with this list.  That's OK, it just has taken a bit of time to
realize that this is the case.  I am sorry for the upsetting nature of my
posts.  It would appear that I have greater faith in the posters on this and
other lists than others do.

Best wishes to all, and to all a good night.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Matkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

> I suspect we shall  soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but
> what
> the hey.
> Where in 131 does it say this?  I read Celestial Glory, not the
> Kingdom.

This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent
teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time
of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very
question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase
Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been
equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you
suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent
usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial

I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and
so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of
teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your
flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the
church of teaching false doctrine.  Section 131 is a seminary scripture
mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary
and institute and all correlated lesson manuals.  For someone to suggest
that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the
brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all
those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the
brethren from attack on the ZION list.

Here's what Rene found out in his research:

I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used
"celestial glory" interchangeably with "heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms
of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith.

Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet
Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes:

I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the
relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the
mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said,
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.)
Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the
moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from
another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st
Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the
dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our
dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in
our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who
have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And
hence is the glory of the sun.
You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder
King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the
resurrection of the dead-until the perfection of the remainder; for at
the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to
celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can
receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far
above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us?
I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you
have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't
mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is
within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you
in the morn of the celestial world.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844

Here we see Joseph use the expressions "celestial world", "celestial
glory" and "celestial kingdom", and as far as I can judge, his words
only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the
same thing.

So next, I started searching "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith".
There are 16 occurences of the phrase "celestial glory", one of them
being the KFD. The others are as follows:

"Section One 1830-34, p.32
The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not
how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians;
but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us,
to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be
crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is
prepared for the children of God."

"Section Two 1834-37, p.47
Impressed with the truth of these facts what can be the feelings of
those who have been partakers of the heavenly gift and have tasted the
good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Who but those
that can see the awful precipice upon which the world of mankind stands
in this generation, can labor in the vineyard of the Lord without
feeling a sense of the world's deplorable situation? Who but those who
have duly considered the condescension of the Father of our spirits, in
providing a sacrifice for His creatures, a plan of redemption, a power
of atonement, a scheme of salvation, having as its great objects, the
bringing of men back into the presence of the King of heaven, crowning
them in the celestial glory, and making them heirs with the Son to that
inheritance which is incorruptible, undefiled, and which fadeth not
away--who but such can realize the importance of a perfect walk before
all men, and a diligence in calling upon all men to partake of these
How indescribably glorious are these things to mankind! Of a truth they
may be considered tidings of great joy to all people; and tidings, too,
that ought to fill the earth and cheer the heart of every one when
sounded in his ears. The reflection that everyone is to receive
according to his own diligence and perseverance while in the vineyard,
ought to inspire everyone who is called to be a minister of these glad
tidings, to so improve his talent that he may gain other talents, that
when the Master sits down to take an account of the conduct of His
servants, it may be said, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou
hast been faithful over a few things; I will now make thee ruler over
many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."

"We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of
instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the
heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the
intellect; and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer
are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the
evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients,
arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and
glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider
that this is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment: he must
have been instructed in the government and laws of that kingdom by
proper degrees, until his mind is capable in some measure of
comprehending the propriety, justice, equality, and consistency of the
same. For further instruction we refer you to Deut. 32, where the Lord
says, that Jacob is the lot of His inheritance. He found him in a desert
land, and in the wast!
e, howling wilderness; He led him about, He instructed him, He kept him
as the apple of His eye, etc.; which will show the force of the last
item advanced, that it is necessary for men to receive an understanding
concerning the laws of the heavenly kingdom, before they are permitted
to enter it: we mean the celestial glory. So dissimilar are the
governments of men, and so divers are their laws, from the government
and laws of heaven, that a man, for instance, hearing that there was a
country on this globe called the United States of North America, could
take his journey to this place without first learning the laws of
governments; but the conditions of God's kingdom are such, that all who
are made partakers of that glory, are under the necessity of learning
something respecting it previous to their entering into it. But the
foreigner can come to this country without knowing a syllable of its
laws, or even subscribing to obey them after he arrives. Why? Because
the government o!
f the United States does not require it: it only requires an obedience
to its laws after the individual has arrived within its jurisdiction."

"What Is the Purpose of Existence?

Section Two 1834-37, p.56
Think for a moment, of the greatness of the Being who created the
Universe; and ask, could He be so inconsistent with His own character,
as to leave man without a law or rule by which to regulate his conduct,
after placing him here, where, according to the formation of his nature
he must in a short period sink into the dust? Is there nothing further;
is there no existence beyond this veil of death which is so suddenly to
be cast over all of us? If there is, why not that Being who had power to
place us here, inform us something of the hereafter? If we had power to
place ourselves in this present existence, why not have power to know
what shall follow when that dark veil is cast over our bodies? If in
this life we receive our all; if when we crumble back to dust we are no
more, from what source did we emanate, and what was the purpose of our
existence? If this life were all, we should be led to query, whether or
not there was really any substance in existence, and we might with !
propriety say, "Let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!"
But if this life is all, then why this constant toiling, why this
continual warfare, and why this unceasing trouble? But this life is not
all; the voice of reason, the language of inspiration, and the Spirit of
the living God, our Creator, teaches us, as we hold the record of truth
in our hands, that this is not the case, that this is not so; for, the
heavens declare the glory of a God, and the firmament showeth His
handiwork; and a moment's reflection is sufficient to teach every man of
common intelligence, that all these are not the mere productions of
chance, nor could they be supported by any power less than an Almighty
hand; and He that can mark the power of Omnipotence, inscribed upon the
heavens, can also see God's own handwriting in the sacred volume: and he
who reads it oftenest will like it best, and he who is acquainted with
it, will know the hand wherever he can see it; and when once
it will not only receive an acknowledgment, but an obedience to all its
heavenly precepts. For a moment reflect: what could have been the
purpose of our Father in giving to us a law? Was it that it might be
obeyed, or disobeyed? And think further, too, not only of the propriety,
but of the importance of attending to His laws in every particular. If,
then, there is an importance in this respect, is there not a
responsibility of great weight resting upon those who are called to
declare these truths to men? Were we capable of laying any thing before
you as a just comparison, we would cheerfully do it; but in this our
ability fails, and we are inclined to think that man is unable, without
assistance beyond what has been given to those before, of expressing in
words the greatness of this important subject. We can only say, that if
an anticipation of the joys of the celestial glory, as witnessed to the
hearts of the humble is not sufficient, we will leave to yourselves the
result o!
f your own diligence; for God ere long, will call all His servants
before Him, and there from His own hand they will receive a just
recompense and a righteous reward for all their labors."

"Section Four 1839-42, p.181
All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil
has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at
anything which comes from God, the devil takes power. This earth will be
rolled back into the presence of God, and crowned with celestial glory."

"Section Four 1839-42, p.197
God has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for
instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and
gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass,
except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their
sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea
also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the
earth, as well as in the heavens for instance, the oak of the forest,
the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed
hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree,
plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot
come forth after any other law or principle.3 Upon the same principle do
I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in
Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God,
"for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into
the Kingdom of God," said the Savior. It is a sign and a commandment
which God has set for man to enter into His kingdom. Those who seek to
enter in any other way will seek in vain; for God will not receive them,
neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted, for they
have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God
ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for, and give him a
title to, a celestial glory; and God had decreed that all who will not
obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the
damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His

"Remarks of the Prophet at Ramus--Importance
of the Eternity of the Marriage Covenant
Section Six 1843-44, p.300
Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be
married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and
authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they
die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection.
But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood
in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy
Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial
glory. The unpardonable sin is to shed innocent blood, or be accessory
thereto. All other sins will be visited with judgment in the flesh, and
the spirit being delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of
the Lord Jesus.

Section Six 1843-44, p.301
The way I know in whom to confide--God tells me in whom I may place

The Celestial Glory
Section Six 1843-44, p.301
In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order
to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the
priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and
if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but
that is the end of his kingdom: he cannot have an increase. (May 16,
1843.) DHC 5:391-2."

"Section Six 1843-44, p.368
In order for you to receive your children to yourselves you must have a
promise--some ordinance; some blessing, in order to ascend above
principalities, or else it may be an angel. They must rise just as they
died; we can there hail our lovely infants with the same glory--the same
loveliness in the celestial glory, where they all enjoy alike. They
differ in stature, in size, the same glorious spirit gives them the
likeness of glory and bloom; the old man with his silvery hairs will
glory in bloom and beauty. No man can describe it to you--no man can
write it."

"Eternal Glories
Section Six 1843-44, p.374
Go and read the vision in the Book of Covenants. There is clearly
illustrated glory upon glory--one glory of the sun, another glory of the
moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another
star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory,
and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions.
By the apostates admitting the testimony of the Doctrine and Covenants
they damn themselves. Paul, what do you say? They impeached Paul and all
went and left him. Paul had seven churches, and they drove him off from
among them; and yet they cannot do it by me. I rejoice in that. My
testimony is good."

None of the above quotes furthers the assumption that CG meant "heaven"
or "all three kingdoms of heaven", while at least the last quote
definitely shows that JS referred to the "celestial glory" meaning
"celestial kingdom".

Also, the quote of which D&C 131 is a part, is really enlightening,
because it first talks about "will continue to increase and have
children in the celestial glory", and then follows the text from D&C

Based on this, I do not think that there is any substance to the claim
that Joseph Smith may have used "celestial glory" interchangeably with
"heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms of glory).


René A. Krywult


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