Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmmm, that could work, at least the "a lower pitch reverb means a gap" idea (while higher pitch reverb means a ceiling). Will see if I can get it working today and comment on the results (possibly post a recording if the router decides to behave).I was also wondering about adding panning to the reverb for gaps (to indicate the direction on which the gap is), was thinking that this probably wouldn't work, but coupled with the pitch hint that's probably way more feasible.magurp244 wrote:This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound.Yeah, things may get weird if both play simultaneously on the same clue. Seems worth trying, however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=243002#p243002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmmm, that could work, at least the "a lower pitch reverb means a gap" idea (while higher pitch reverb means a ceiling). Will see if I can get it working today and comment on the results (possibly post a recording if the router decides to behave).I was also wondering about adding panning to the reverb for gaps (to indicate the direction on which the gap is), was thinking that this probably wouldn't work, but coupled with the pitch hint that's probably way more feasible.magurp244 wrote:This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound.Yeah, things may get weird if both play simultaneously on the same clue. Seems worth trying, however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=243002#p243002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmmm, that could work, at least the "a lower pitch reverb means a gap" idea (while higher pitch reverb means a ceiling). Will see if I can get it working today and comment on the results (possibly post a recording if the router decides to behave).I was also wondering about adding panning to the reverb for gaps (to indicate the direction on which the gap is), was thinking that this probably wouldn't work, but coupled with the pitch hint that's probably way more feasible.magurp244 wrote:This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound.Yeah, things may get weird if both play simultaneously on the same clue. Seems worth trying, however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=243002#p243002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmmm, that could work, at least the "a lower pitch reverb means a gap" idea (while higher pitch reverb means a ceiling). Will see if I can get it working today and comment on the results (possibly post a recording if the router decides to behave).I was also wondering about adding panning to the reverb for gaps (to indicate the direction on which the gap is), was thinking that this probably wouldn't work, but coupled with the pitch hint that's probably way more feasible.magurp244 wrote:This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound.Yeah, things may get weird if both play simultaneously on the same clue. Seems worth trying, however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=243002#p243002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmmm, that could work, at least the "a lower pitch reverb means a gap" idea (while higher pitch reverb means a ceiling). Will see if I can get it working today and comment on the results (possibly post a recording if the router decides to behave).I was also wondering about adding panning to the reverb for gaps (to indicate the direction on which the gap is), was thinking that this probably wouldn't work, but coupled with the pitch hint that's probably way more feasible.magurp244 wrote:This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound.Yeah, things may get weird if both play simultaneously on the same clue. Seems worth trying, however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=243002#p243002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hrm, thats a good point, a gap can mean many different things. When thinking about it I imagined the reverb of the edge sound would determine the distance of the gab, with the pitch determining the height of the opposing ledge/surface. So if you were to walk to the edge the echo you here (or don't hear) would determine how close the opposing surface is, and the pitch of the sound would determine how high or low that surface is relative to your position.This is assuming though that the reverb sound effect your using for the ceiling doesn't clash negatively with the edge detection sound. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242967#p242967 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list OK was trying to upload an OGG of what I have so far but this router is rather unstable... I have to find out a way around that since I'll be stuck with it for a long while.How would reverb work? I did give it a quick consideration before, but I don't know how it could be implemented without it clashing with ceilings (in particular, accidentally thinking a gap is a ceiling). Any specific remarks? (yes, details on how it'd get mixed are welcome - right now reverb is implemented by playing a clue multiple times at the same position with some delay and reduced volume)Also I guess the other problem here is the definition of "gap", in audiogames it seems that gaps are always pits and nothing else (and not that common either). Sol is a traditional platformer so heights go all over the place, there are pits you're meant to jump, there are stairs you just walk down, there are borders you're expected to drop off. This makes things not trivia l. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242963#p242963 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list CAE_Jones wrote:Most of the 1.5D audio side-scrollers give pits a wind sound, but also have the player's steps change when they get close to the edge (mud, crumbling rocks, squeaky boards, whatever's thematically appropriate).Yeah, I was wondering about maybe make footsteps sound like you're running into more slippery ground or something. I was going to give it a try later today actually (first I need to think on how to make the sound effect, mind you).CAE_Jones wrote:Battle Zone doesn't bother with the altered steps and just uses the wind, but it is louder than the wind in most games. This helps given how obstacles work in that game, but I'm not sure it'd work well in a platformer.What Battle Zone are we talking about? (since that's the name of an '80s arcade game with 3D tanks and a 3D RTS game from 1999, so searching for it won't help at all)CAE_Jones wrote:Solutions I've floated around for this are altering the pitch or something of the pit sound, or using camera panning;Right now I'm using the sound pitch to indicate how deep is a gap (let's just say that there's an important difference between going down a stair and going down a bottomless pit).CAE_Jones wrote:alternatively, just making sounds for each ledge, rather than the gap itself, but that would mean even more noise. And, yeah, I tried implementing that last one once and had the same problem.Yeah, this is what I'm doing right now (just putting sounds at the boundaries). It sounds like there's a storm incoming (not anywhere as bad as the old sonar beeps, but unless you stop and carefully listen you end up no t paying attention to them, and having to stop is precisely what I don't want).CAE_Jones wrote:(I'm specifically thinking of 4-2 and 8-1.)Don't remind me of those... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242691#p242691 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Well, have been implementing some of these ideas in a simpler variant of the sound engine proposed here. What works fine so far:Footsteps, including pitch variants to indicate slopesUsing reverb to indicate something is under a ceiling (works really well)Bop sounds when you hit a ceiling or a wall, as well as a landing soundReverse jump sound to indicate that you're fallingWhat does not work: the idea of using wind to indicate gaps. I got it implemented as intended, but honestly feels like random noise that doesn't help much. This is kind of an issue since you need to be able to tell gaps before you fall into them (so you can jump over them, especially those that lead to bottomless pits).OK, so back to the drawing board on this. Does anybody have any other ideas? I think that if I get this done most of the stuff would be taken care of (I already got clues for nearly ever y object in the game, in many cases they even are timed to the animation)Last night I was looking into the Bokura no Daibouken games and they don't seem to be even remotely similar to Sol, they focus on exploration way moreso than on platforming apparently. That's a completely different set of constraints it has to cope with. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242678#p242678 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Most of the 1.5D audio side-scrollers give pits a wind sound, but also have the player's steps change when they get close to the edge (mud, crumbling rocks, squeaky boards, whatever's thematically appropriate).Battle Zone doesn't bother with the altered steps and just uses the wind, but it is louder than the wind in most games. This helps given how obstacles work in that game, but I'm not sure it'd work well in a platformer.I think it might work better if there were only sounds playing for the nearest drops, but that would make it impossible to do things like half the multijumps in the first Super Mario Brothers. (I'm specifically thinking of 4-2 and 8-1.) They also don't make it easy to tell how big a gap is. (Solutions I've floated around for this are altering the pitch or something of the pit sound, or using camera panning; alternatively, just making sounds for each ledge, rather than the gap itself, but that would mean even m ore noise. And, yeah, I tried implementing that last one once and had the same problem.) URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242683#p242683 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Audiogames Battle Zone is more or less a side-scrolling hack-and-slash or run-and-gun, with a few additional obstacles like pits, cars, and moving blade-things. I mostly like the fact that it isn't overly verbose or step-count-y, and all the important information is in the readme rather than an elaborate tutorial or manual. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242698#p242698 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hm, you could try applying a reverb effect to the edge detection sound in addition to pitch to indicate the breadth of the gap in much the same way reverb is used to indicate the height of the ceiling. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=242778#p242778 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Thought I had replied. The link doesn't work though (the site doesn't... ugh, I hate how unreliable is that server).Anyway, today I was giving it some more thought, were you thinking on something like this?Walking on normal ground makes dusty footstepsWalking on breakable platforms makes cracky wood footstepsBeing under an one-way ground lets you hear faint rocks fallingRight? Although I still wonder if the last point could be confusing or not (is it a ceiling? is it something that could fall on me?), and thinking about it, that fails to account for ground you can break using the hammer (maybe just make it more rocky?).Comments? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=235780#p235780 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Huh, yeah i've noticed its been somewhat unstable lately. Thats the second time its been down for whatever reason, well anyway I suppose its a good thing I already downloaded the sample, i'll just put up the relevant snippet here.The points you raise is generally what I had in mind. I think in those other instances the context of the sound should help make things clearer. Ceilings for example are handled with reverb, and ground you can break with a hammer is only relevant if your standing on top of it, not beneath it. Are there objects that can fall on the player like spikes? I may be mistaken but don't recall encountering those in the Demo. If there are spikes or such, you could perhaps have a rocky cracking sound just before, or when the spike or object starts to drop. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=235813#p235813 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Well yeah but you're likely to find the one-way floors before the ceilings. In fact, you're guaranteed to, since the game has you start right next to one (to let players know those walls aren't fully solid).magurp244 wrote:Are there objects that can fall on the player like spikes? I may be mistaken but don't recall encountering those in the Demo.There are falling stalactites in the second half of the game, but yeah the demo doesn't reach anywhere that far. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=235815#p235815 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list If it helps, the 3 cursor sounds in Bokurano Daibouken 3 are obviously synthesized, and the difference between solid tiles and solid-but-unhookable tiles is that the latter has a short tone appended to the end of the sound. I'm not really sure how easy it would be to apply this, here, but some sort of layering / concatenation thing might help? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=235819#p235819 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Not exactly, I pictured more of the sound of rocks sliding like someones foot along the edge of a dirt cliff, like these. Maybe you could adjust the pitch of the wind sound at their edges to effect distance? Or add a reverb effect? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233947#p233947 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hmm, I keep thinking that one-way flooring could be represented by the sound of crumbling dirt or some such, but only when your walking and underneath it, like an additional surface cue. If above it you could simply play just the crumbling sound when walking. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233840#p233840 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list When above it I think it's better to just treat them as normal floors (especially since you can't drop off them). The only real issue is when you're below one. Also I just realized this means they'd have the wind sound from the "gaps" at their sides... If I can make their vertical position clear somehow, maybe that'll do the trick?Also a crumbling sound would make it look like the floor could break, wouldn't it? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233941#p233941 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Well, decided to just put the list on a proper page (note that it was remade from scratch):http://sik.titandemo.de/audio_clues.htmlFor now the biggest focus should be describing the level layout since that's the hardest part (for objects I can probably come up with some random sound in the worst case). I want you to think of any possible situation you could think on and comment on that. What's covered so far:Being on a floor (slopes and platforms too)Being close to a gapStuff under a ceilingConveyor beltsFloors you can break...I think the only big thing missing so far is when there's a chunk of one-way floor above you. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233482#p233482 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list OK, that's fair. I did get lost in LBZ more often than not. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232263#p232263 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Yeah, the panning suggestion I mentioned worked similar to that, except it involved the volume of both speakers instead of just one (note: didn't get to check the recording yet, no sound right now). I guess that using plain volume would be easier, but first you'll need to know which direction it represents.CAE_Jones wrote:Try a couple of hours.Actually not, because level 12 of Sonic 3 happens to be Launch Base 2, which has a four minutes long boss rush in a game that has a time limit of 10 minutes for each level... chances are you'll die from time over until you figure out how to get to the end in under six minutes (and unless you outright speed through it, that's hard). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232239#p232239 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list For the conveyor, one way might be to use a slide volume setting to illustrate the direction the conveyor is moving? For example in this recording, the engine sound starts at full volume and decreases gradually to half before reseting back to full volume, which can indicate a conveyor moving to the right. The sound then flips, starting at half volume and gradually increases to full before reseting to half again, which can represent moving left. This way, you can still use pitch for up/down while using the volume slide to indicate direction. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232187#p232187 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list (sorry, I don't know how to use quotations on this forum):Like so:[quote="author"] Text [/quote]while a sightted kid could do it in a couple of days.Try a couple of hours.I could never see as well as the average sighted person, yet the only part of Mario that gave me lasting trouble was that giant pit in 8-1. ... I don't recall ever beating 8-4, either, but that's mostly because I only ever got there when someone else beat 8-1, so probably have less than an hour of playtime there overall. (As for Sonic: those boxes in Chemical Plant Zone 2. But I expect anyone's record would look better if there was a curve added specifically for that section.)And I was never a particularly good player of anything, except *maybe* Marvel Vs Capcom (against someone who doesn't just use well-timed jump attacks, because have you ever tried using the shoryuuken on a silent jumping Spider-man?), and Marvel Vs Capcom I actually put lots and lots of time into practicing (which I don 't really have the option for anymore, but that is neither here nor there).How is a game designed from the scratch to act like a platformer using only audio?An excellent question, and I'm still as lost as I was years ago when I started looking for the answer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232185#p232185 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hi there,Very interesting topic, but there is a question (maybe more philosophical than practical) I'd like to share.Sik said (sorry, I don't know how to use quotations on this forum):And yeah, my problem with blind-friendly platformers is that they simplify the design in order to make it easier to cram in everything. I completely refuseto do that, I'm being stubborn here.Here, the keyword is resolution: hearing and seeing are different senses, each one useful for a different kind of situations, and hearing has evolved to bring mankind the resolution their ears cannot. Sight offers much more positional location information, so, I fear you cannot create the same experience using only audio. In the best case, with an excellent sound cue representation, you would design a very complex game which, compared to an equivalent videogame, would take much more efford to master.Ok, you'd design a fully accessible Sonic 3 experience, but a player would need 3 months to master their skills for the level 12, while a sightted kid could do it in a couple of days.And here is another "philosophical" question: why? I'm not wondering "why is it much harder"? It's much harder cause seeing is specially useful to collect information about what's around you; but a second reason is simple: you are translating, and any translation sacrifices information. A videogame is primarily a video based game, and a platformer is a great example of that. You can add a lot of extra helpers to make it easier to navigate and use, but it's nothing but an addition, on the backend, you are creating a videogame which includes helpers.Audiogames have a short history, and there are only a few complex tittles, basically, we haven't experimented enougth to create our own formulas and we try to make versions of our favorite videogames for the blind.How is a game designed fr om the scratch to act like a platformer using only audio? I have no idea (not sure if it is doable), but in my opinion there are two ways:1. Simplify a regular visual platformer to make it easy to translate to audio.or 2: try new aproaches, even aproaches that aren't realistic at all (mario or sonic play in a world that is visually entertaining, but it's not realistic at all). I think it's important to remember that you are trying to create entertaining challenges, not a simulation environment, so the question is not: how can I make this platform accessible? but: what kind of challenge could I implement in a world of sounds?Have a nice day, topics like that are always welcome. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232099#p232099 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hi there,Very interesting topic, but there is a question (maybe more philosophical than practical) I'd like to share.Sik said (sorry, I don't know how to use quotations on this forum):And yeah, my problem with blind-friendly platformers is that they simplify the design in order to make it easier to cram in everything. I completely refuseto do that, I'm being stubborn here.Here, the keyword is resolution: hearing and seeing are different senses, each one useful for a different kind of situations, and hearing has evolved to bring mankin the resolution their ears cannot. Sight offers much more positional location information, so, I fear you cannot create the same experience using only audio. In the best case, with an excellent sound que representation, you would design a very complex game which, compared to an equivalent videogame, would take much more efford to master.Ok, you'd design a fully accessible Sonic 3 experience, b ut a player would need 3 months to master their skills for the level 12, while a sightted kid could do it in a couple of days.And here is another "philosophical" question: why? I'm not wondering "why is it much harder"? It's much harder cause seeing is specially useful to collect information about what's around you; but a second reason is simple: you are translating, and any translation sacrifices information. A videogame is primarily a video based game, and a platformer is a great example of that. You can add a lot of extra helpers to make it easier to navigate and use, but it's nothing but an addition, on the backend, you are creating a videogame which includes helpers.Audiogames have a short history, and there are only a few complex tittles, basically, we haven't experimented enougth to create our own formulas and we try to make versions of our favorite videogames for the blind.How is a game designed fro m the scratch to act like a platformer using only audio? I have no idea (not sure if it is doable), but in my opinion there are two ways:1. Simplify a regular visual platformer to make it easy to translate to audio.or 2: try new aproaches, even aproaches that aren't realistic at all (mario or sonic play in a world that is visually entertaining, but it's not realistic at all). I think it's important to remember that you are trying to create entertaining challenges, not a simulation environment, so the question is not: how can I make this platform accessible? but: what kind of challenge could I implement in a world of sounds?Have a nice day, topics like that are always welcome. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232099#p232099 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Platformer audio cues list
Platformer audio cues list Warning: heavy abuse of list tree structures (also giant wall of text)OK so, since trying to use a sonar in Sol didn't seem to really work out, I'm trying to think again how to add clues that could make a platformer accessible (at least for later developing a much better alternative to that method). The problem is, I'm not exactly somebody who plays audio-only platformers so I don't really know well what they do nor do I have enough time to check so I want help making a list of every possible situation.Stuff I came up with so far:Obviously updating the whole sound engine to 2D position everything (the original engine didn't even allow panning, this was a last minute hack)Walking around makes footstep soundsNormal footsteps mean flat floorHigher pitched footsteps mean an upwards slopeLower pitched footsteps mean a downwards slopeA cracky sound means a breakable platformMoving under a ceiling causes reverb or echoStronger effect means ceiling is closerJumping into a ceiling causes a bop soundNearby gaps will make a windy noiseStarting to fall makes a cartoon falling soundMoving enemies will make some faint mechanical noises to indicate their locationI guess non-moving enemies could make some sort of noise too?Collectible items would make some variant of the sound effect they make when takenKind of problematic for the power-ups since all of them have the same sound effect, should come up with something hereSprings aren't collectible but probably could make a similar noise as wellLiquid hazards would make bubbling noise, fire hazards would make burning noiseImportant stuff that still needs ideas:One-way floors above you (e.g. that you can jump onto them)For a similar reason, moving platformsWhen a ceiling is around but not right above youOr panning alone of the reverb is enough?How do I mark conveyor belts? Obviously some engine sound, but I need a way to mark their direction as well.Probably something involving panning and moving noises I suppose? But no idea how well would that work.Spike hazards (not to mention only one side of them is hazardous and the other sides are just plain solid)Floors you can break with the hammer, cracking noises would cause confusion with breakable platformsOther stuff:Page Up and Down will mess with the background music volumeShift + Page Up and Down will mess with the sound effect volumeSome clues have to be explicitly enabled (or they'll get too annoying for sighted players), though others may just stay there permanently for extra effectI'll update this post with new suggestions as soon as I get the chance (assuming I find them OK), and more ideas as I come up with them as well. Still, I want help with this so maybe in the future I can come up with a better audio mode and also to keep this list for reference for anybody else who may want to implement an audio platformer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232058#p232058 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Platformer audio cues list
Platformer audio cues list Warning: heavy abuse of list tree structures (also giant wall of text)OK so, since trying to use a sonar in Sol didn't seem to really work out, I'm trying to think again how to add clues that could make a platformer accessible (at least for later developing a much better alternative to that method). The problem is, I'm not exactly somebody who plays audio-only platformers so I don't really know well what they do nor do I have enough time to check so I want help making a list of every possible situation.Stuff we came up with so far:Obviously updating the whole sound engine to 2D position everything (the original engine didn't even allow panning, this was a last minute hack)Walking around makes footstep soundsNormal footsteps mean flat floorHigher pitched footsteps mean an upwards slope< /p>Lower pitched footsteps mean a downwards slopeA cracky sound means a breakable platformMoving under a ceiling causes reverb or echoStronger effect means ceiling is closerJumping into a ceiling causes a bop soundNearby gaps will make a windy noiseStarting to fall makes a cartoon falling soundMoving enemies will make some faint mechanical noises to indicate their locationI guess non-moving enemies could make some sort of noise too?Collectible items would make some variant of the sound effect they make when takenKind of problematic for the power-ups since all of them have the same sound effect, should come up with something hereSprings aren't collectible but probably could make a similar noise as wellLiquid hazards would make bubbling noise, fire hazards would make burning noiseImportant stuff that still needs ideas:One-way floors above you (e.g. that you can jump onto them)For a similar reason, moving platformsMoving platforms may have different sounds depending on their directionWhen a ceiling is around but not right above youOr panning alone of the reverb is enough?How do I mark conveyor belts? Obviously some engine sound, but I need a way to mark their direction as well.Probably something involving panning and moving noises I suppose? But no idea how well would that work.Spike hazards (not to mention only one side of them is hazardous and the other sides are just plain solid)Floors you can break with the hammer, cracking noises would cause confusion with breakable platformsOther stuff:Pag e Up and Down will mess with the background music volumeShift + Page Up and Down will mess with the sound effect volumeSome clues have to be explicitly enabled (or they'll get too annoying for sighted players), though others may just stay there permanently for extra effectI'll update this post with new suggestions as soon as I get the chance (assuming I find them OK), and more ideas as I come up with them as well. Still, I want help with this so maybe in the future I can come up with a better audio mode and also to keep this list for reference for anybody else who may want to implement an audio platformer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232058#p232058 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list In other words, you ran into just about every single problem I had with the sonar.I like the idea of moving platforms changing their pitch to indicate their direction. Maybe I can make falling platforms go lower pitched and rising platforms go higher pitched. Not sure how to make this work with horizontal moving platforms, however (pitch changes wouldn't be as intuitive there). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232076#p232076 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list In other words, you ran into just about every single problem I had with the sonar.I like the idea of moving platforms changing their pitch to indicate their direction. Maybe I can make falling platforms go lower pitched and rising platforms go higher pitched. Not sure how to make this work with horizontal moving platforms, however (pitch changes wouldn't be as intuitive there).And yeah, my problem with blind-friendly platformers is that they simplify the design in order to make it easier to cram in everything. I completely refuse to do that, I'm being stubborn here. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232076#p232076 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list I would say reasonable, rather than stubborn. I have no intention of dumbing things down, either... it's just a struggle to distinguish genuine design flaws from things being harder than most blind players are use to.I forgot to mention this, but for conveyer belts, giving them a stereo sound might work--that is, have the sound loop in the direction that the belt moves. Admittedly, that would be a bit cumbersome to code. Maybe there is one sound for the motor, and one sound that represents part of the belt as it moves, and that one is just an invisible intangible item that moves on the belt just like the player would, but it loops back at the end? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232077#p232077 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Hello Sik.Okay well I will try to give you ideas on how to do some of these things.Breaking platforms and breaking spikes should have 2 different sounds. One for when you break a spike and another sound for when a platform breaks.Sounds of enemies need to pan for whatever directions they are moving. And the enemy needs to make some sort of sound and different types of enemies should have different sounds for each to indicate to a blind player what the enemy is. If the enemy can't move for whatever reason they should make a sound whether it be growling, talking, yelling, or doing some kind of action shooting, throwing something, something like that.If there is a floor you could jump onto maybe play a very high pitched beeping sound or if you have screen reader support have the screen reader speak an alert that tells you that the floor is there.Hth. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232060#p232060 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list Spikes don't break... I have the feeling the list tree didn't come out right (or at least it doesn't on some screen readers, despite each entry should be its own line?) Also please let's make the assumption that all sound effects would be 2D where relevant. (note that this is 2D and not 3D since there isn't a depth axis)The high pitched beeping sound is pretty much what the old sonar method did, let's say people weren't happy with it and would get confused constantly. Making the screen reader talk is rather blunt (and could get annoying) so I'd try to keep that at a minimum where possible, especially for situations that are likely to happen quite often. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232065#p232065 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list This is pretty much what I was thinking, when I first got here.In practice, things get a bit weirder.It doesn't help that a lot of those features--slopes, conveyer belts--haven't really been implemented in audio games at all (not for lack of trying on my part, at least).I've made like 3 (well, I guess 3.5) games that would qualify as Audio-only platformers. (Well, one of them has braille support.) I handled each of them differently, and none of them is as successful as Bokurano Daibouken 3. I think I'll describe them in chronological order?First: I tried to make Super Mario Bros. accessible. It worked like this:There's a cursor one can move around, by holding an extra key and using the directional controls. I very foolishly called it "the accessible camera" and now everyone's calling similar things cameras even though they're more like an extendable hand. Basically, it moves around block b y block, and plays a sound to indicate what sort of thing is there (a tone for empty space, brick and bump and coin and pipe sounds as appropriate). It speaks the names of enemies and powerups.While just walking normally, there are cues that play every step, to indicate platforms, walls, and dropoffs. These can all be muted. They only play when Mario takes a step. In practice, one must filter out a lot of noise.Enemies make sound when moving.Mario makes sound when walking (luckily there are sounds in the game itself that work surprisingly well for this, even before Mario 3).Moving platforms make sound, and just for clarity, the sound is different depending on the direction.One can press a key that will announce the positions of everything in the on-screen area. In practice, just listing everything is annoying, and most games make it more like a menu. I personally want more games that are perfectly playab le without this sort of thing, but my efforts in that direction appear fruitless.Complaint number 1: all the cues were annoying when playing at once, so I added another command to play them in sequence, without needing to move. And here we see the biggest disadvantage to audio compared to video: serial Vs Parallel.Complaint number 2: Making sense of levels with lots of complex jumps (any of the x-3 levels, especially) is tedious and confusing, so I added a command to the cursor that would play cues for the current column. I have never seen this feature anywhere else, but most audio platformers aren't complex enough to need it. I was hoping to use similar features for a bigger original project. In that case, I added lots of ledge sounds, dependent on terrain (rocks, dripping water, creeking metal/wood, etc). I proved disastrously useless o n the scale I was working with, and never got released.I tried something similar with Sonic the Hedgehog, which confused people less but didn't make it to completion:when approaching a section of track, a sound plays to indicate its slope. Basically, I used short musical sequences, with changes in pitch indicating the shape of the slope, but also using stereo.In addition, there was also a command to have Tails fly along the current section of track, so one can hear its shape more continuously.Optionally, pitch could be mapped to vertical position. I did not handle this well, and just jumping could do some weird things to pits.The only additional sound I added for movement was the landing sound (basically just using Knuckles' landing sound from Sonic3K for every case of someone landing). The only real complaint I ever got was not adding a sound for basic movement (I avoided adding this bec ause the only obvious option was the spin sound, which... spinning needs).All enemies make sound. If it can be linked to movement or attacks, great.Rings and springs make filtered versions of their typical interaction sounds.Pits use the noise that the original games use for water/wind/etc, always.There's some bird-whistle-sound used with end-of-level easter eggs in the original game. I applied it to platforms, most of which are one-way.Object viewer with track size and angle. This was much cleaner than the Mario version, but horribly distracts from a high-speed game like Sonic.I also made a brawler with platforming elements. The physics was pretty buggy and you got flight far enough in that it didn't really matter, but it worked like so:Big things you could climb on (buildings in the background, for example) echoed footsteps. This turned out distract ing and I made it optional.I used a looping wind-ish sound to indicate the edges of platforms. I am apparently terrible at picking these sounds, since no one ever seemed to notice it.Enemies and other NPCs occasionally speak, even if they aren't moving. This isn't common enough because gathering voices is harder than it seems.This game was entirely object-based, not tile-based. Some objects could have sounds attached to them, which loop and move if ever the object moves.Object viewer again. This tim
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list This is pretty much what I was thinking, when I first got here.In practice, things get a bit weirder.It doesn't help that a lot of those features--slopes, conveyer belts--haven't really been implemented in audio games at all (not for lack of trying on my part, at least).I've made like 3 (well, I guess 3.5) games that would qualify as Audio-only platformers. (Well, one of them has braille support.) I handled each of them differently, and none of them is as successful as Bokurano Daibouken 3. I think I'll describe them in chronological order?First: I tried to make Super Mario Bros. accessible. It worked like this:There's a cursor one can move around, by holding an extra key and using the directional controls. I very foolishly called it "the accessible camera" and now everyone's calling similar things cameras even though they're more like an extendable hand. Basically, it moves around block b y block, and plays a sound to indicate what sort of thing is there (a tone for empty space, brick and bump and coin and pipe sounds as appropriate). It speaks the names of enemies and powerups.While just walking normally, there are cues that play every step, to indicate platforms, walls, and dropoffs. These can all be muted. They only play when Mario takes a step. In practice, one must filter out a lot of noise.Enemies make sound when moving.Mario makes sound when walking (luckily there are sounds in the game itself that work surprisingly well for this, even before Mario 3).Moving platforms make sound, and just for clarity, the sound is different depending on the direction.One can press a key that will announce the positions of everything in the on-screen area. In practice, just listing everything is annoying, and most games make it more like a menu. I personally want more games that are perfectly playab le without this sort of thing, but my efforts in that direction appear fruitless.Complaint number 1: all the cues were annoying when playing at once, so I added another command to play them in sequence, without needing to move. And here we see the biggest disadvantage to audio compared to video: serial Vs Parallel.Complaint number 2: Making sense of levels with lots of complex jumps (any of the x-3 levels, especially) is tedious and confusing, so I added a command to the cursor that would play cues for the current column. I have never seen this feature anywhere else, but most audio platformers aren't complex enough to need it. I was hoping to use similar features for a bigger original project. In that case, I added lots of ledge sounds, dependent on terrain (rocks, dripping water, creeking metal/wood, etc). I proved disastrously useless o n the scale I was working with, and never got released.I tried something similar with Sonic the Hedgehog, which confused people less but didn't make it to completion:when approaching a section of track, a sound plays to indicate its slope. Basically, I used short musical sequences, with changes in pitch indicating hte shape of the slope, but also using stereo.In addition, there was also a command to have Tails fly along the current section of track, so one can hear its shape more continuously.Optionally, pitch could be mapped to vertical position. I did not handle this well, and just jumping could do some weird things to pits.The only additional sound I added for movement was the landing sound (basically just using Knuckles' landing sound from Sonic3K for every case of someone landing). The only real complaint I ever got was not adding a sound for basic movement (I avoided adding this bec ause the only obvious option was the spin sound, which... spinning needs).All enemies make sound. If it can be linked to movement or attacks, great.Rings and springs make filtered versions of their typical interaction sounds.Pits use the noise that the original games use for water/wind/etc, always.There's some bird-whistle-sound used with end-of-level easter eggs in the original game. I applied it to platforms, most of which are one-way.Object viewer with track size and angle. This was much cleaner than the Mario version, but horribly distracts from a high-speed game like Sonic.I also made a brawler with platforming elements. The physics was pretty buggy and you got flight far enough in that it didn't really matter, but it worked like so:Big things you could climb on (buildings in the background, for example) echoed footsteps. This turned out distract ing and I made it optional.I used a looping wind-ish sound to indicate the edges of platforms. I am apparently terrible at picking these sounds, since no one ever seemed to notice it.Enemies and other NPCs occasionally speak, even if they aren't moving. This isn't common enough because gathering voices is harder than it seems.This game was entirely object-based, not tile-based. Some objects could have sounds attached to them, which loop and move if ever the object moves.Object viewer again. This tim
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list This is pretty much what I was thinking, when I first got here.In practice, things get a bit weirder.It doesn't help that a lot of those features--slopes, conveyer belts--haven't really been implemented in audio games at all (not for lack of trying on my part, at least).I've made like 3 (well, I guess 3.5) games that would qualify as Audio-only platformers. (Well, one of them has braille support.) I handled each of them differently, and none of them is as successful as Bokurano Daibouken 3. I think I'll describe them in chronological order?First: I tried to make Super Mario Bros. accessible. It worked like this:There's a cursor one can move around, by holding an extra key and using the directional controls. I very foolishly called it "the accessible camera" and now everyone's calling similar things cameras even though they're more like an extendable hand. Basically, it moves around block b y block, and plays a sound to indicate what sort of thing is there (a tone for empty space, brick and bump and coin and pipe sounds as appropriate). It speaks the names of enemies and powerups.While just walking normally, there are cues that play every step, to indicate platforms, walls, and dropoffs. These can all be muted. They only play when Mario takes a step. In practice, one must filter out a lot of noise.Enemies make sound when moving.Mario makes sound when walking (luckily there are sounds in the game itself that work surprisingly well for this, even before Mario 3).Moving platforms make sound, and just for clarity, the sound is different depending on the direction.One can press a key that will announce the positions of everything in the on-screen area. In practice, just listing everything is annoying, and most games make it more like a menu. I personally want more games that are perfectly playab le without this sort of thing, but my efforts in that direction appear fruitless.Complaint number 1: all the cues were annoying when playing at once, so I added another command to play them in sequence, without needing to move. And here we see the biggest disadvantage to audio compared to video: serial Vs Parallel.Complaint number 2: Making sense of levels with lots of complex jumps (any of the x-3 levels, especially) is tedious and confusing, so I added a command to the cursor that would play cues for the current column. I have never seen this feature anywhere else, but most audio platformers aren't complex enough to need it. I was hoping to use similar features for a bigger original project. In that case, I added lots of ledge sounds, dependent on terrain (rocks, dripping water, creeking metal/wood, etc). I proved disastrously useless o n the scale I was working with, and never got released.I tried something similar with Sonic the Hedgehog, which confused people less but didn't make it to completion:when approaching a section of track, a sound plays to indicate its slope. Basically, I used short musical sequences, with changes in pitch indicating the shape of the slope, but also using stereo.In addition, there was also a command to have Tails fly along the current section of track, so one can hear its shape more continuously.Optionally, pitch could be mapped to vertical position. I did not handle this well, and just jumping could do some weird things to pits.The only additional sound I added for movement was the landing sound (basically just using Knuckles' landing sound from Sonic3K for every case of someone landing). The only real complaint I ever got was not adding a sound for basic movement (I avoided adding this bec ause the only obvious option was the spin sound, which... spinning needs).All enemies make sound. If it can be linked to movement or attacks, great.Rings and springs make filtered versions of their typical interaction sounds.Pits use the noise that the original games use for water/wind/etc, always.There's some bird-whistle-sound used with end-of-level easter eggs in the original game. I applied it to platforms, most of which are one-way.Object viewer with track size and angle. This was much cleaner than the Mario version, but horribly distracts from a high-speed game like Sonic.I also made a brawler with platforming elements. The physics was pretty buggy and you got flight far enough in that it didn't really matter, but it worked like so:Big things you could climb on (buildings in the background, for example) echoed footsteps. This turned out distract ing and I made it optional.I used a looping wind-ish sound to indicate the edges of platforms. I am apparently terrible at picking these sounds, since no one ever seemed to notice it.Enemies and other NPCs occasionally speak, even if they aren't moving. This isn't common enough because gathering voices is harder than it seems.This game was entirely object-based, not tile-based. Some objects could have sounds attached to them, which loop and move if ever the object moves.Object viewer again. This tim
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list I actually had thought about that idea for the belt before (though good call on using the motor sound for the extremes), no idea if it would work though. I assume the belt would be represented by mechanical sounds (maybe some humming part?), but I wonder about the spacing between clues since belts are long running so a single sound won't do.Actually, this gave me the horribly crazy idea of doing double panning: the sound itself has 2D positioning, and then on top of that there's panning (like: if panning is at the right, you won't hear the sound if the source is to your left, etc.) This honestly sounds horribly confusing, but it could possibly work with the belts since their panning would be constantly changing. Would need experimenting. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232081#p232081 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Platformer audio cues list
Platformer audio cues list Warning: heavy abuse of list tree structures (also giant wall of text)OK so, since trying to use a sonar in Sol didn't seem to really work out, I'm trying to think again how to add clues that could make a platformer accessible (at least for later developing a much better alternative to that method). The problem is, I'm not exactly somebody who plays audio-only platformers so I don't really know well what they do nor do I have enough time to check so I want help making a list of every possible situation.Stuff we came up with so far:Obviously updating the whole sound engine to 2D position everything (the original engine didn't even allow panning, this was a last minute hack)Walking around makes footstep soundsNormal footsteps mean flat floorHigher pitched footsteps mean an upwards slope< /p>Lower pitched footsteps mean a downwards slopeA cracky sound means a breakable platformMoving under a ceiling causes reverb or echoStronger effect means ceiling is closerJumping into a ceiling causes a bop soundNearby gaps will make a windy noiseStarting to fall makes a cartoon falling soundMoving enemies will make some faint mechanical noises to indicate their locationI guess non-moving enemies could make some sort of noise too?Collectible items would make some variant of the sound effect they make when takenKind of problematic for the power-ups since all of them have the same sound effect, should come up with something hereSprings aren't collectible but probably could make a similar noise as wellLiquid hazards would make bubbling noise, fire hazards would make burning noiseImportant stuff that still needs ideas:One-way floors above you (e.g. that you can jump onto them)For a similar reason, moving platformsMoving platforms may have different sounds depending on their directionWhen a ceiling is around but not right above youOr panning alone of the reverb is enough?How do I mark conveyor belts? Obviously some engine sound, but I need a way to mark their direction as well.Probably something involving panning and moving noises I suppose? But no idea how well would that work.Their extremes should be marked by motor sounds to make their endpoints more obvious.Spike hazards (not to mention only one side of them is hazardous and the other sides are just plain solid)Floors you can break with the hammer, cracking noise s would cause confusion with breakable platformsOther stuff:Page Up and Down will mess with the background music volumeShift + Page Up and Down will mess with the sound effect volumeSome clues have to be explicitly enabled (or they'll get too annoying for sighted players), though others may just stay there permanently for extra effectI'll update this post with new suggestions as soon as I get the chance (assuming I find them OK), and more ideas as I come up with them as well. Still, I want help with this so maybe in the future I can come up with a better audio mode and also to keep this list for reference for anybody else who may want to implement an audio platformer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232058#p232058 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Platformer audio cues list
Re: Platformer audio cues list For the belts, I was imagining something kinda like the sounds that Swamp uses, since you can hear both the general ambiance, and some parts bouncing a bit as they move. I wouldn't know how to break that up into something better, though; maybe a stereo version of the same recording would be better, and position each channel at either end of a belt? That way, to reverse the direction, you'd just need to swap which channel is at which end. Again, though, that seems like a lot of extra work, unless there's a good stereo sound like what I'm imagining somewhere cheap-or-free.It wouldn't be too odd to have certain sounds play only when you're facing their source. You would just need to pick which sounds work this way carefully. It'd probably be reasonable for things like slopes and (stationary?) platforms, but not so much for anything more active that might come into play soon. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=232084#p232084 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
