It won't play your 24/192 files at that resolution - 24/96 is max -
anything above gets down sampled server side.
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Also, I assume the effect of speaker/wall interaction is not linear in
the distance, so you may move in larger increments as you her further
from the boundaries - thats my experience.
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Being a hard-fact guy I suppose the flat-respons metric would be your
goal. Personally I use the sounds-good metric - but it probably
requires more testing/work/moving??
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part of the theorem directly requires an infinite sum.
This is easy in mathematics, but how the engineers implement it is
still something even folks like Monty does not explain in any detail -
in fact, its often completely ignored... But why???
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Dans paper long ago and AFAIR he doesnt dicsuss this much
either - but I'll have another look).
PS I've made this complaint on these forums eariler - no avail :)
PSS If you want to argue by scientific standards, this is a part not to
be left out.
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Perhaps look at this this way. The circumference of a circle is pi*d -
easy. Very few people know how to compute this *exactly* on a computer
- not so easy :)
(However its easy to approximate within an error of...)
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the mark?
So there is still room for the audiophile crowd to go ballistic on
sampling rates - as I see it.
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In conclusion i agree with you mnyb and others. Its just that wrt the
end result the rigidness of mathematical sampling theory does (alone)
not carry through all the way.
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as
such... But it'll stay supported - won't get any new features though,
but possibly bug-fixes if new ones are discoved.
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their homework as the saying goes.
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Why the RC requirement?
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roughly for low/medium/high volumes, so if they are
totally out of reach, I can see the point.
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If this is really true, Logitech deserves a huge slap! The Transporter
is an expensive product so they should positively have some way of
servicing or repairing - possibly at owners cost - but definetly a few
years into the future. Refusing to do this even while at the same time
*still* selling
Keep bugging them Rob! As a (currently happy) TP owner I wish I could
help more than encouraging you here :)
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wuffles wrote:
Forgive me if this has been discussed - I didn't find a similar thread.
This never topic never expires because there is no definite resolution.
wuffles wrote:
Some tracks have absolutely amazed me - these are typically vocal with a
couple of instruments.
This kind
TP supports 88, so problem must be elsewhere.
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Also close-mic vocals surely isn't a new feature of the pop and rock
genre. I agree that processed sound is common, but I think its a
feature/trend and I don't see unaturalness being a huge problem in terms
of audiophile enjoyment (unless its in direct conflict with an intended
goal of
Well I dont mind the processing and close-mic stuff per se. Like Johnny
Cashs much praised work with Rick Rubin on American Recordings. Sounds
fab to me, but it doesnt sound particularily supernatural and the voice
tracks are recorded close-mic and compressed. Its a bit theatrical
sounding, but
The point is that presumably the modern records sounds the way they do
because they are meant to sound that way. If one does not like that dont
just blame the recording qualities and priorities, but perhaps accept
that one simply does not like that specific *music*. I get the
impression that
Then define realism. To me its as infinite as the world itself. Add
that audiophile sound to an extent is a subjektive quality in so far as
no system can 100% and verifiably reproduce reality, and it becomes hard
to judge recordings bad, on the basis of simplistic parameters.
Anyway I'm
Yes dynamics is part of most music, though there are mainstream genres
where its less pronounced such as some noise, shoegaze, or ambient.
But its this apparent obsession, c.f. loudness-debate, among audiophiles
that puzzles me. On one hand its portraied as having ruined all recorded
music
Mnyb wrote:
many new rock songs you may hear on radio have a generic sound like
any music void of identity
This void of identity, on the other hand, could well be due to the (lack
of) actual musical content :)
Mnyb wrote:
The most annoying thing is that they are doing it for nothing as radio
stations compress and levels out things at their end...*cut*...
Take a quick peak out of the window. Not difficult to spot folks with
white thingies hanging of heads. You can´t argue that some compression
cliveb wrote:
The correct place to apply this level of compression is *in the playback
device*, and have it switchable/adjustable.
Indeed, mastering should be done at runtime on as unprocessed files as
possible, and using player-dependent parameters. But thats not reality,
nor is it for the
ralphpnj wrote:
Apple IS the dominant force in the marketplace and therefore has the
ability to influence the market much more than any other manufacturer.
In other words, as goes Apple so goes (almost) everyone else.
Assuming you are right and they actually have this ability, audiophile
stop-spinning wrote:
Over here in the UK, Linn has completely abandoned making CD players,
because they deem CD players inferior to their network music players in
terms of SQ.
There is no doubt the CD is dying as a mainstream distribution media -
its already in the grave among the younger
Not sure Im following Mnyb. As far as the high-end manufacturers go, I
think they've been trying to the opposite - to make it easy and
userfriendly. Most either support upnp or use their own protocol like
SB. The driver stuff is for the DIYers who do *not* want to spend their
bucks on the
darrenyeats wrote:
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_big_squeeze/
Yes, thanks. One thing I think it shows, is that in the end its a matter
of the artistic content and how it interacts with its surroundings. The
discussion reminds me of digital photography. Hipstamatic and instagram
sort of being
Lupin, you don't understand Nyquist!
There are other objections, but yours is just plain wrong.
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Good times and we're all in agreement :)
But.
The one-liner scientific argument (Nyquist) doesn't carry through to the
end (the analog outputs of Your DAC). While Nyquist is a very nice
result, its theoretical and for practical purposes, non-constructive. So
an implementation is forced to take
Mnyb wrote:
So given modern studios the CD's or downloads is a mathematical exercise
so imo it is close to the theory
Maybe, but you can't argue that by referring to (only) Nyquist - the
main point of my first post.
Mnyb wrote:
And have a listen , in practice I do this now and then I
:) enjoy your coffee mnyb! I am listening to some recently released
stuff i havent bought yet on Spotify in shrug Mp3...
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Mnyb wrote:
quantum
But I guess this is the point. There is some wiggly room in the
interface where science meets the real world. And I know, in the
sciences its usually controlled and abstracted using some kind of
error-model, but such error models can't be denied of being extremely
Neh :) Of course, a claim - wether positive or negative - presented
without argument is not worth a penny. But this just resolves into what
constitutes an argument. Here traditions vary depending on the science,
and I'm sure some audiophile story-tellers are in fact able to present
sequences
One way is to press the navigation wheel to get into the context menu
and from there select more info. There you should be able to see the
format. Note that if its being transcoded, it'll just say convertet
into 705 kbps. - and not what its actually playing.
Mind elaborating? Because there is no difference, littlebut too little
difference, difference for the worse, less features, too expensive
somehow, or???
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Bit if you're only aften better, rather than best/optimal, sound quality
(which most in reality are no matter what they claim), and you assign a
certain room design/layout a monetary value (which many do) it can make
sense to improve by spending on the gear side of things ;)
Lots of people have gear in the 10k-class - especially if bought
pre-loved.
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The problem I intended to adress was that of mixing cost (value for
money) with the question of wether front ends can sound relatively
better/worse/different. Also there is some confusion as to wether a
front end includes a dac-stage or not - said Linn and Naim have no
digital only transports
Anyway as far as choosing Naim as an example of what Im not sure,
but it seems ill-chosen. In fact I think they have gone to lenghts in
keeping up with times. Their Uniqute integrated amplifier features
streaming, FM, DAB, USB input, iDevice digital connecticity, analouge
and digital inputs,
ralphpnj wrote:
All in all, I'd say that the Squeezebox based streaming digital music
playback system is on par with any other streaming digital music
playback system currently available, regardless of price.
Arguably The best up to the point of derivering the digital stream.
ralph and jh: this discussion is kind of interesting, but seriously - do
you actually have evidence to support your claims about the intellect of
folks who spend a lot of money on hi-fi? If you do, I'd love to see the
statistics?
As to wether there are differences or not. We are some that, from
Obviously its not going to provide conclusive evidence - but its hell
of a lot better basing your arguments on the lack of intellect of people
you dont even have an idea who are!
If you have better suggestions on how to bring this discussion further,
by all means. But right now, its worthless.
If anyone's interested: I could try setting up a bare SB3/Duet to
audition against my main-source - its been a while since I did. I'm also
going to be testing my main-source in this - its a guy I know - in the
high-end world non-conventional system, in the near future. Its in
danish, but I can
ralphpnj wrote:
The is no such thing as soundstage. The only thing soundstage is a
construct of the over active imaginations of audio reviewers. Therefore
it can not be wider, taller or deeper.
Images and imaging are another audio reviewer construct. Doesn't really
exist, never has
cliveb wrote:
Folks, let's have a reality check. The difference between a $150 DAC and
a $15000 DAC is orders of magnitude less than the variance in the
listener's perception capabilities from day to day.
One day I'm in a happy place and the SB2 playing through crappy kitchen
speakers
An exemple of fatigue. Listening at concert levels, say 90 dB, is in
many ways ideal cf. eg. Fletcher-Munson curves. However its too loud
for extended time. If you do it non-stop for several hours it will
create a physical sense of miscomfort. Here one could sensibly talk
about fatigue induced by
Ralph you're amazingly persistent;)
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Ralph, Im again not getting you - how do you reach your conclusions
regarding USB replacing spdif? To me it reads like argument-by-magic, to
stay with the terminology of recent threads.
As far as I know its simply a matter of a sum of factors deciding which
interface shall prevale. Its a
Ralph (and other critics:))
I think by now your stand as audiophiles is quite clear. I would like to
ask though, if you could please describe some of the listening sessions
you've had that has made you come to these strong conclusions.
Equipment, setups, etc.
Mnyb. I undesrstand you used to
ralphpnj wrote:
NO ONE regardless of playback system can ever hear the interface induced
jitter in S/PDIF. But hey, there are plenty of high priced digital audio
cables, by they optical, coax or USB, that promise to clean up jitter.
At some point you have to acknowledge that not everyone
thanks garym. My next question is then wether you've further considered
the strengths/weaknesses of the methodology. Any thoughts - theoretical,
statistical, probabilistic, domain specifics, or just intuitive thoughts
on the matter?
Thanks for the link - I didnt yet read it though.
But you are misunderstanding my point. Which is that usb is a better
interface by purely technical metrics and probably as cheap as spdif,
and more widespread in computing, so that alone is reason to make the
change. Spdif is for all but
You can find bs, lies, and nonsense in anything from your average
hghfi-mag to published peer-reviewed sciemtific papers. You cant
disregard an entire field just on account of some black sheeps. My
experience i (digital) high-fi is the same. Some talk just to avoid
falling in sleep, some just
compare to the Transporter in
terms of end sound quality. This is obviously much more subjective than
1, and rather than digging deep into each answer, I'd rather get many
answers to gather some mass of opinions.
Thanks in advance.
Regards Bjørn
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would really
appreciate that.
TIA
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Phil Leigh;546998 Wrote:
Apparently the eye pattern (what s/pdif looks like on an oscilloscope)
is very good indeed.
Do you have any references to these plots or the original claims?
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has RCA)?
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do not have enough knowledge of
electronics, nor the details of the design, to complete a
equality-argument down to the very basics.
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which he
does seem that familiar with?
The quote is taken from here:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=454830highlight=touch+transporter+digital#post454830
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Thanks Phil. I was asking about RCA/BNC since apparently when ordering
from BJC, one can specify any combination of termination without extra
cost. So I thought that when given a choice between multiple products
at the same price - one might as well choose the best :S
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that it should be easy to
simulate - at least in principle - precision might be a problem.
Pointers appreciated
TIA
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wave-form. I was thinking this could be simulated by instead
distorting the input wave-form (using predictions) and realise the
entire thing by slightly altering the samples.
Admitted, its just a rather quick thought, but I can not immediately
see why it couldnt't work.
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jitter in the data.
Ah, I think I see what you where getting at now. You ment
hardware-simulation so to speak? I would have thought that would be
much more difficult as it would require programming the DAC and/or the
clock(s) and accompanying machinery. I think...
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cliveb: its primarily the house sound. Secondary is the possibility of
(official) upgrades.
My amps are Naim, so the balanced output option is not applicable in
the first place. I did try it in another setup, where it didn't work
particularily well for some reason.
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...
Anyway, again please keep comments flowing. At this time I do have
everything set up and playing in my living-room, so its simply a matter
of listening... in a way
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qualified one then?
By the way, the measurements you have, are those the ones sometimes
called 'intrisic jitter'?
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[in jitter] present in modern devices relates to differences
in perceived sound-quality.
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that god old analog timing errors as wov and flutter in reel to
reel tape and turntables is not a problem for some when digital timing
error magnitudes smaller is ?
Hard to say - if just someone could come up with a way of identifying
jitter as non-ambigously as wow and flutter ;)
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placebo.
I'm not sure where the comment is coming from. But as far as my header
post is concerned you can rest assure that it does not contain the
entire universe of information on which I base my selection in gear :)
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clocking the DAC 100%
independently of the transport.
It seems so simple, that I'm starting to think that the complexity of
dedidated clock-lines is unnecessary (for the given application area).
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bhaagensen's
in order to obtain proper gains.
Obviously many details are needed for gluing the thing together. But
thats roughly it as I see it - as a good Occam's Razor-like solution.
Am I overlooking anything (and I'm not insisting I'm not)?
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. However I do find it interesting to discuss solutions to
the cause of the problem now that seemingly Naim in a way has a
pseudo-solution that is implemented in a real life product.
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cliveb;549231 Wrote:
Moreover, it's the *correct* way to achieve the goal of isolating the
DAC from the effects of transport jitter.
Only if assuming that it is inherently necessary for the transport and
DAC to be tied in time. Its not.
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distortion have
never been worked out? Another issue is that as always, there would be
quantization errors - those must of course be orders of magnitudes less
than the jitter errors themselves.
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bhaagensen's
to the issues discussed in the last couple
of posts.
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Got to go! Wagner-concert :)
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by jitter.
Assuming it doesn't clip or anything like that, this signal also has a
representation, S1. The question is simply whether it is possible to
model the nature of the transformation of S0 to S1 and such that it
could be implemented as a transformation in DSP?
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test re jitter is done by simply
disturbing a known good DAC design and ABX compare the results.
Sounds likely - but also rather non-realisable for many.
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Robin Bowes;549504 Wrote:
On 21/05/10 07:59, bhaagensen wrote:
Robin Bowes;549382 Wrote:
On 20/05/10 20:20, mswlogo wrote:[color=blue]
In the amplitude domain, yes. In the time domain, no.
In the context of representing a sound-wave, there is no such fixed
separation. AFAIK
directly using a signal-derived clock. In my mind, thats
different from any approach that drives the conversion using a local
clock.
(And I point out that I'm in general (still) not claiming practical
superiority of any method)
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the
process. And then there are the rare, but important cases, where
something truly construtive is the result.
Its cool if something concrete and useful comes out of this. If not -
I've already learned some things that I didn't know before asking.
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and that the DAC in question, while not in that price
range, has a distinctive sound that is a better match for my taste as
well as the rest of my equipment.
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-accessible?
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mswlogo;550437 Wrote:
Yes construction is different. most of Transporter's construction is for
beefing up it's analog section.
But the digital section has certainly not been neglected, at least c.f.
official data concerning jitter.
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jitter... (Disclaimer:
I couldn't find the original post - it had graphs and such - and I'm
not even sure I remember it correctly).
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SoftwireEngineer;550497 Wrote:
...as you are from the land of the CEO of my company :-)
Lego then - I presume.
Always appreciate useful links. I have read that one though - and also
[one of?] his [R. Hartley] books.
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I haven't really followed this thread, so this may be totally out of
place by now - but c.f. the header post it could be interesting.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57872highlight=seedeclip
(shameless self-link)
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- how does replay gain comapare to the
SeeDeClip as far as sound goes?
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back to the original Plugin.pm - and automagically it
worked.
I havent tried room-correction, only eq,balance,tone controls etc.
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Yes probably a good idea to mention that the server is Ubuntu 9.10 and
I've only tried with Safari ó
on Snow Leopard.
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to quantify in this context,
I would also go along with a phrasing such as (the) Transporter is
*much* better sounding than the SB3, and the Touch puts itself
somewhere in between...
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michael123;557100 Wrote:
BTW, I see some benefit when transport works as 32bit, it is more
appropriate when fed by computer. Eliminates conversion.
Care to elaborate on this point? (I don't understand the argument)
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pfarrel and Phil are of course right. AFAIK there are other somewhat
stronger arguments for very large bitdepths (DSP related), but this
probably wasn't intended as yet another resolution-discussion...
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. As far as all reports indicate, the TP
was very carefully designed with audio-quality in mind - it doesn't
appear this was the case with the Touch.
In many ways, a better comparison would be the SB3 or Receiver against
the Touch. If I get my hands on a Touch again, I'd try that.
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, as per another thread on these forums, there seems to exist
little evindence in terms of actual measurements, or other direct
objective comparisons, of the quality of the TP vs. the Touch digital
output...
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based
on which inputs where used, but I did switch between two. I thought the
TP was better - but I'm not even convinced myself yet...
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of whether it is worthwhile, can only be
answered by each individual contemplating the purchase. Personally I
probably wouldn't - but on the other hand, I can certainly understand
why some would make the investment.
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sport-cars (with builtin
Squeezebox'es)...
Think about it. All things considered, in the broader perspective, why
would it make sense for Logitech to continue the high-end
network-player line? Can you think of a single solid argument? I really
can't!
--
bhaagensen
tried-and-tested Squeezebox-system with integration to all kinds of
external services and with advanced features taking care of the digial
side. And a DAC of your favourite choice to create the actual sound.
Win-win... sorta!
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