Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Adobe AIR for Linux beta http://blogs.adobe.com/ashutosh/2008/09/adobe_air_for_linux_beta_is_ou_1.html no DRM support :-) On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Battley Sent: 07 July 2008 11:54 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 2008/7/7 Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is Adobe Air any good for developing in? Has anyone done anything good with it? There's http://freshairapps.com/showcase (about to become refreshingapps.com because Adobe didn't want to play) for some reasonably polished little apps. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Hi Kirsteen. You can un-subscribe from the list by visiting http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html Kindest regards, m ___ Matthew Cashmore Senior Research Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC4A5, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TS T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Kirsteen McNish Sent: Fri 7/4/2008 16:45 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 can you please take me off this list please. thanks From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood Sent: 04 July 2008 15:58 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non-free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R. So it's okay to exlude people because of their beliefs? No. It's OK to exclude people if they've made a practical decision knowing that decision may exclude them. In effect, if they exclude themselves. R. winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
So... Is Adobe Air any good for developing in? Has anyone done anything good with it? I tried this Twitter client, but it's a bit pants, IMHO http://www.downloadsquad.com/2007/09/05/snitter-an-adobe-air-twitter-client/ 2008/7/3 Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting question to the backstage community... If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? There's a run time and SDK for Win, OSx and now gnu/Linux. Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Graham Gillies *Sent:* 03 July 2008 15:20 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* RE: [backstage] BBC Widget, nice! I like it too. The Adobe Air platform seems quite good. I got a Breaking News window today on bottom left of screen. It would be nice to think what other tabs could be put in beyond News and Sport... Weather i guess. The new iplayer feeds could be good... Graham Graham Gillies Multiplatform Development, Factual Content, BBC Scotland. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 02 July 2008 14:32 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* [backstage] BBC Widget, nice! Just looking at the BBC Widget... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/free_range_widgets.html Seems OK, but it does fall into the recycled feeds category... Love the blurry slide to read the story! -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
So... Is Adobe Air any good for developing in? Not tried it but would like to soon, I was considering either a small project in AIR or Gears, would anyone recommend either or the other? I've always liked Flash, so might try something in AIR.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/7 Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is Adobe Air any good for developing in? Has anyone done anything good with it? I tried this Twitter client, but it's a bit pants, IMHO Twitter clients are the Hello Worlds of Air development: http://twitter.pbwiki.com/Apps#MultiPlatform Paul. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Battley Sent: 07 July 2008 11:54 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 2008/7/7 Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is Adobe Air any good for developing in? Has anyone done anything good with it? There's http://freshairapps.com/showcase (about to become refreshingapps.com because Adobe didn't want to play) for some reasonably polished little apps. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
:):) Unrelated, but seeing as they're here: many thanks to Alia, Matt, Ian and everyone else who helped make Mashed so great! Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/3 Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting question to the backstage community... If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in I think its misguided for the BBC to require any particular kind of technology, since it is a publicaly funded organisation it ought not to exclude members of the public for using any particular software. This applies equally to accessing its services and to entering its competitions. An exception to this might be requiring the use of BBC technology (assuming it is free software) - so for example, a Kamaelia competition. Cheers, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
I agree whole heartedly with Michael here, Personally, I prefer competitions that have a goal based upon the end user experience rather than technologies the application utilises. So build an app which encourages the over 60s to listen to BBC 1xtra rather than build an app using AIR. Again, the focus is on the what, rather than the how. Andy (positively personal opinion, surely) On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 03 July 2008 16:41:00 Ian Forrester wrote: .. If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? Suppose Blue Peter ran a competition for a new toy, but required that children only use Lego, what that be reasonable? I think the discussion has gone off at a tangent (largely due to political ranting presented as fact and the One True Truth). It strikes me that you're asking how would people feel we ran a competion that required a particular vendor's technology. I'd personally feel that the vendor should run the competition myself. (just feels like free advertising otherwise) That's obviously my personal views though. /Personally/ I think it would be more appropriate to suggest a competition where the result was a cross platform desktop application which should work on (say) Windows, Mac os X and Linux (and ideally not limited to those, but they're the most common). That opens up the doors to a variety of different things, including Adobe Air. I suspect you'd get a lot more interesting variety - since you'd also open it up to all sorts of things (including tech from the BBC...). ie focus the competition on the what, rather than the how. Regarding Alia's question I think you'd need to clarify if this is a competition without a prize which would probably mean BBC people could join in, or whether it was competition with a prize, in which case we probably couldn't... (cf competition rules in even things like Doctor Who Adventures magazine :-) That said, any competition is better than none - after all, its the taking part and having fun that matters... :-) Regards, Michael. (all personal thoughts) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 So a little history I was approached by a large company to run a competition based on there technology. The base technology was xml but required there software to play it back. I did turn down the offer for many of the reasons brought up on the list recently. I did feel this should have done in a more transparent way but I never said no as such, so it could still happen. However about competitions, we have a couple of competitions planned already its just a matter of when. We feel its better to launch competitions around new APIs/sets of Data rather that technologies. I might be wrong, but generally a new API can really spark ideas. Cheers, Ian Forrester See some of you at OpenTech08, where we might be launching something :) Ben O'Connor wrote: Hi Everyone, I agree with Alia, can't we all just get along ? If this is to be a competition about rich internet applications, then the competition could be open to AIR and alternatives, such as Google Gears etc. That is likely to appeal to our various sub-communities better. Also, wouldn't that be interesting in itself ?! All these fevered developers taking an opening concept and applying it to their 'colours' about open this, proprietary that. I'm sure the end user isn't bothered, as long as the final result is something that makes them get all teary and touch the screen, as they whisper home. Offering guidelines but not restrictions makes it more like a sort of X-prize or Darpa race then. With a broad goal to work toward, that leaves plenty of room to go off in different directions and that allows for a nice, healthy gorge of innovation and ideas. That's how I feel about it anyway. Ben O'Connor On 4 Jul 2008, at 03:39, Alia Sheikh wrote: Oh I promised myself that I wouldn;t get involved, but yay Godzilla! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RFEzpUsUBk Ian - I'd like to know more about the competition. If all we know is that it's using AIR then that's all we'll argue^H^H^H^H^Htalk about. Whats it actually going to be? Is Backstage runnning it or is someone else? Also are competitions going to be a regular thing/will we get to play with lots of stuff eventually or is this a one off? Oh, and I crush everything:) Alia Richard Lockwood wrote: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/3 Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? No problem with that. There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary software, so it ought to be boycotted. You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy. The rest of us can carry on living in the real world. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. Rich. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIbglrQiJ2fWCDT3cRAjgPAJ9i8X9QUXy0GQqzA9JxKF1VdLo6nwCeMomF LtVMZpOxwghKA/nPHvpDevA= =nqL1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/4 Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was approached by a large company to run a competition based on there technology. The base technology was xml but required there software to play it back. I assume it was proprietary software :-( I did turn down the offer for many of the reasons brought up on the list recently. Thank you! I did feel this should have done in a more transparent way but I never said no as such, so it could still happen. I hope you will stand firm and continue to defend the software freedom of those accessing BBC services. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Hi Everyone, I agree with Alia, can't we all just get along ? If this is to be a competition about rich internet applications, then the competition could be open to AIR and alternatives, such as Google Gears etc. That is likely to appeal to our various sub-communities better. Also, wouldn't that be interesting in itself ?! All these fevered developers taking an opening concept and applying it to their 'colours' about open this, proprietary that. I'm sure the end user isn't bothered, as long as the final result is something that makes them get all teary and touch the screen, as they whisper home. Offering guidelines but not restrictions makes it more like a sort of X-prize or Darpa race then. With a broad goal to work toward, that leaves plenty of room to go off in different directions and that allows for a nice, healthy gorge of innovation and ideas. That's how I feel about it anyway. Ben O'Connor On 4 Jul 2008, at 03:39, Alia Sheikh wrote: Oh I promised myself that I wouldn;t get involved, but yay Godzilla! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RFEzpUsUBk Ian - I'd like to know more about the competition. If all we know is that it's using AIR then that's all we'll argue^H^H^H^H^Htalk about. Whats it actually going to be? Is Backstage runnning it or is someone else? Also are competitions going to be a regular thing/ will we get to play with lots of stuff eventually or is this a one off? Oh, and I crush everything:) Alia Richard Lockwood wrote: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/3 Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? No problem with that. There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary software, so it ought to be boycotted. You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy. The rest of us can carry on living in the real world. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. Rich. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thu Jul 3 21:46:16 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/3 Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? No problem with that. There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary software, so it ought to be boycotted. You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy. The rest of us can carry on living in the real world. You mean that world where you berate people for their morals? To be honest, I don’t really want to live there. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. Rich. Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being facetious? pgp64TW9Ykdft.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being facetious? Yes. I regular consider my freedom. My freedom to consider, carefully think about and, where appropriate amend my views. My rights to not be hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use inflammatory and emotive words such as evil in entirely inappropriate circumstances. How about you? Rich.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible. Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being facetious? Yes. I regular consider my freedom. My freedom to consider, carefully think about and, where appropriate amend my views. My rights to not be hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use inflammatory and emotive words such as evil in entirely inappropriate circumstances. How about you? Rich.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/4 simon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible. Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built. Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand and share the software we use to do our computation. Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_ computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more common with RIA technology. If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use our computers, and preserve our freedom. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Cheers, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Oops, posted that without a subject and on a new thread... here you are: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/4 simon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible. Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built. Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand and share the software we use to do our computation. Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_ computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more common with RIA technology. If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use our computers, and preserve our freedom. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Cheers, Dave Personal opinion only. bit of a rant This software by Adobe that makes it easier to deploy cross-platform, desktop apps, and to use AJAX, HTML, Flash, and have it running offline/online - and these skills would be useful in other situations too - seems cool. In regard to the.. discussion that this competition thread has become - this is the double edged sword when such an organisation as the BBC gets involved. Because they are open, friendly and quite frankly damn good I think at letting other people fudge around with their stuff - and listening back too, it is such an understated forum for expression of creative ideas and technological solutions. But as it's publically funded, this gets pushed aside with facts and figures of 'openness' and 'fair' use of 'free' software. Also, the subject of 'free' software alone could fill entire libraries with [philosophical discussion|rants|arguments|insults|etc] - but is this why we are here? I'm here to have fun and to maybe try out some new things, and to read interesting points of view on technology and the BBC. This competition idea introduces a viable, probably robust option, that finally allows multiple platforms to converse and use an app. It might be something people can dig their teeth into, have a bit of fun with, and maybe even god forbid make something useful that people can actually use? Or should we insist that Windows is wrong, Flash is evil and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot? Well call me an idiot, but I love what Flash brought to the table many years ago with it's easy to use scripting and tools, and I actually *enjoy* using Windows on my PC. Hell, I even use Windows Media Player. It may surprise you that I sometimes watch BBC TV and listen to the radio, too... /bit of a rant Please enjoy the freedom to discuss and have a point of view, but it sometimes gets a little ridiculous.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/4 Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/7/4 simon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible. Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built. Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand and share the software we use to do our computation. No. -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
No Dave. The main thing *for you* is that you preserve *your* perceived freedom. For a lot of us, that isn't the main thing at all. Please stop making sweeping statements as though your world view is the only one. If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. As ever Dave, it's all about *you*, and what *you* want. Rich. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/4 simon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible. Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built. Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand and share the software we use to do our computation. Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_ computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more common with RIA technology. If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use our computers, and preserve our freedom. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Cheers, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 04:41:00PM +0100, Ian Forrester wrote: If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? There's a run time and SDK for Win, OSx and now gnu/Linux. 32-bit only on Linux unfortunately, so not _quite_ cross platform. Important: This prerelease of Adobe AIR for Linux is alpha-quality and is not feature complete. If you are looking for Adobe AIR for Macintosh or Windows, please go to Adobe.com. http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/air/ Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It’s not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. pgp3uhWOHlcMT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
I've left this list once before, because whilst it's full of interesting people, I've absolutely no interest in watching them bang their heads against each other in the same way over and over again. I still have no interest in that. Whilst it is your right to speak it is also everyone elses right to not to have to listen. If this is going to get religious, then I'm out of here. I have a filter which deletes certain emails automatically for this very reason. ;) I would like to see an RIA competition, restricting it to AIR seems a bit strange though (although it's now bundled with Adobe Reader 9 which I imagine makes it more compelling). Unrelated, but seeing as they're here: many thanks to Alia, Matt, Ian and everyone else who helped make Mashed so great! Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Fri Jul 4 10:24:29 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being facetious? Yes. I regular consider my freedom. My freedom to consider, carefully think about and, where appropriate amend my views. My rights to not be hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use inflammatory and emotive words such as evil in entirely inappropriate circumstances. How about you? Rich. I have no taken my views verbatim. After researching free software I found that the freedoms set out by GNU fit in line with my ethics outside of software. I do not assume my views are the only possible stance, but I do believe people who do not share my views to be immoral. Try to remember that by telling people what you think their views are doesn’t make them so. pgpW4sDF6uiya.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
You may not. A certain Mr Crossland does. R. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 10:24:29 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being facetious? Yes. I regular consider my freedom. My freedom to consider, carefully think about and, where appropriate amend my views. My rights to not be hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use inflammatory and emotive words such as evil in entirely inappropriate circumstances. How about you? Rich. I have no taken my views verbatim. After researching free software I found that the freedoms set out by GNU fit in line with my ethics outside of software. I do not assume my views are the only possible stance, but I do believe people who do not share my views to be immoral. Try to remember that by telling people what you think their views are doesn't make them so. -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Fri Jul 4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R. So it’s okay to exlude people because of their beliefs? pgpZqvfuXqoz8.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fred Phillips Sent: 04 July 2008 15:33 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 On Fri Jul 4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R. So it’s okay to exlude people because of their beliefs? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R. So it's okay to exlude people because of their beliefs? No. It's OK to exclude people if they've made a practical decision knowing that decision may exclude them. In effect, if they exclude themselves. R.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/4 Adam Hatia [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game! Unfortunately, the modus operandi of this list allows repeated regurgitation of tired freedom arguments and the religious wars that ensue. Fortunately, on-topic content crops up often enough to stop the whole list being completely swamped and rendered useless for its intended purpose. Just. -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
can you please take me off this list please. thanks From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood Sent: 04 July 2008 15:58 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100 On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri Jul 4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote: If you don't want to use non-free software, then don't. Don't go trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us. You don't want to code with AIR, then don't. Simple solution. But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition. Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!! You've made your bed - now lie in it. R. So it's okay to exlude people because of their beliefs? No. It's OK to exclude people if they've made a practical decision knowing that decision may exclude them. In effect, if they exclude themselves. R.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thursday 03 July 2008 21:46:16 Richard Lockwood wrote: .. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. +1 QOTW Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thursday 03 July 2008 16:41:00 Ian Forrester wrote: .. If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? Suppose Blue Peter ran a competition for a new toy, but required that children only use Lego, what that be reasonable? I think the discussion has gone off at a tangent (largely due to political ranting presented as fact and the One True Truth). It strikes me that you're asking how would people feel we ran a competion that required a particular vendor's technology. I'd personally feel that the vendor should run the competition myself. (just feels like free advertising otherwise) That's obviously my personal views though. /Personally/ I think it would be more appropriate to suggest a competition where the result was a cross platform desktop application which should work on (say) Windows, Mac os X and Linux (and ideally not limited to those, but they're the most common). That opens up the doors to a variety of different things, including Adobe Air. I suspect you'd get a lot more interesting variety - since you'd also open it up to all sorts of things (including tech from the BBC...). ie focus the competition on the what, rather than the how. Regarding Alia's question I think you'd need to clarify if this is a competition without a prize which would probably mean BBC people could join in, or whether it was competition with a prize, in which case we probably couldn't... (cf competition rules in even things like Doctor Who Adventures magazine :-) That said, any competition is better than none - after all, its the taking part and having fun that matters... :-) Regards, Michael. (all personal thoughts) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Friday 04 July 2008 10:05:08 Fred Phillips wrote: You mean that world where you berate people for their morals? To be honest, I don’t really want to live there. That's actually precisely what Dave does as well. My mail client auto-deletes mails from Dave since I decided I'd had enough when he started telling me I was wrong (and in his eyes probably evil) for actually buying, installing and running a piece of proprietary software on my Xorg/Qt/KDE/Suse/Gnu/Linux (hereinafter Linux) system. Life for me is easier, and its not because I'm judging him (he's fine to have whatever views he likes), but it's because I no longer have to listen to him sitting in judgement of me. It's the corollary of the right to speak - the right not to listen. He insisted on repeatedly judging me and others around me in ways I feel invalid, so I stopped listening. *shrug* That's my guess about what Richard meant about boycotting Dave. He might've been judging Dave as well, dunno. Not particularly interested really. I'm here to talk about code, prototypes and fun stuff, not to persuade people that their views on freedom are wrong. I don't expect it back, so I took Dave's suggestion of deploying filters. Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Friday 04 July 2008 15:50:29 Adam Hatia wrote: I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game! There's the backstage-developer mailing list as well, for what it's worth. Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Dave Crossland wrote: 2008/7/4 simon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand and share the software we use to do our computation. I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this debate. Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_ computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more common with RIA technology. Yup. I find it has really trampled on my freedom to have Internet cables trailing all around the house, and my freedom to be constantly worrying about keeping everything security-patched. Freedom horrible freedom! Dan -- http://danbri.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Friday 04 July 2008 20:13:07 Dan Brickley wrote: I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this debate. Surely, the way to surley eliminate the use of the word surely, one and surely for all is to (surely) overuse it as surely and to the best of our ability, surely, inorder to surely eliminate it from use, lest one surely, be shown to be of surely weak mind and thought for surely using a word that surely presumes too much about their own position, surely ? Surely best regards, ;) Michael. (surely personal opinion) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Surely not? On 7/4/08, Michael (surely) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 04 July 2008 20:13:07 Dan Brickley wrote: I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this debate. Surely, the way to surley eliminate the use of the word surely, one and surely for all is to (surely) overuse it as surely and to the best of our ability, surely, inorder to surely eliminate it from use, lest one surely, be shown to be of surely weak mind and thought for surely using a word that surely presumes too much about their own position, surely ? Surely best regards, ;) Michael. (surely personal opinion) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting question to the backstage community... If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? There's a run time and SDK for Win, OSx and now gnu/Linux. No problem with that. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
David On 3 Jul 2008, at 17:46, Dave Crossland wrote: But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. There are many different communities on this list - please do not conflate your community with mine. You do not speak for everyone on this list and it would be more helpful if you were to express that in the body of your mail rather than as a disclaimer in your .sig. Ian - it is a new technology, with cross platform client side support that goes beyond Win2K, XP Vista cross platform support. I see no problem in running a competition with it. Delivering all BBC content in it would be different but that is not what is being suggested ;-) The people I have spoken to who have developed with it have mostly had nice things to say about it, after all as we are trying to make new things happen, we should use the best tools that are available for the job whilst allowing as a wide a range of users to participate on the client side. Cheers f -- Who doesn't run Windaes, and has a mix of ~50/50 Linux/OSX boxen. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
2008/7/3 Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting question to the backstage community... If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? Personally, I'd be disappointed to see a proprietary technology being a requirement. As an option, I'd have no problem with it, but as a prerequisite it would seem to show favour to Adobe. There's a run time and SDK for Win, OSx and now gnu/Linux. But it's still from only one company, and dependent on their grace (and, when it comes to Adobe and Linux, competence, frankly). Then again, I'm not happy with the iPlayer being dependent on Adobe/Apple, either, though I do my best to address that ;-) Paul. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/3 Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? No problem with that. There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary software, so it ought to be boycotted. You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy. The rest of us can carry on living in the real world. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. Rich.
Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100
Oh I promised myself that I wouldn;t get involved, but yay Godzilla! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RFEzpUsUBk Ian - I'd like to know more about the competition. If all we know is that it's using AIR then that's all we'll argue^H^H^H^H^Htalk about. Whats it actually going to be? Is Backstage runnning it or is someone else? Also are competitions going to be a regular thing/will we get to play with lots of stuff eventually or is this a one off? Oh, and I crush everything:) Alia Richard Lockwood wrote: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/7/3 Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe Air, how would people feel about that? No problem with that. There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary software, so it ought to be boycotted. You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy. The rest of us can carry on living in the real world. It's using a new technology and product to encourage development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with little effort, on multiple platforms. But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important. No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla. Rich. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
