Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On 2021-02-11 05:45, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: Hi there, On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: Michael Stowe wrote at about 20:50:45 + on Wednesday, February 10, 2021: > On 2021-02-09 16:34, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: > > Not sure if you misunderstood the question, or didn't follow the link, > or didn't realize it appeared earlier in the thread, but that absolutely > does not qualify as objective data, nor is it particularly accurate. Good point! While people will (and should) compare the pros/cons of different filesystems until the end of time (like vi vs. emacs), it is either naive or highly partisan to think that a well-distributed and accepted filesystem like btrfs is 'unstable'. I don't want to get into a pointless argument but I do feel the need to get the point across. Apparently I haven't yet done a good job of that. The problem seems to be that people don't understand what's meant in this context by the word 'unstable'. Several people seem to think it means "contains faults". It doesn't. It means that it's a moving target. In the case of BTRFS it's been a moving target more or less since its creation, and people at Red Hat were unable to keep up with it for that reason. Which is what I said at the outset, and what is expressed in comments in the link I posted. (This is, incidentally and despite specious argument to the contrary, perfectly objective.) Each of us must draw his own conclusions about how a lack of stability might or might not affect any uses which he might make of any product. In this case, I've drawn mine and I consider the matter now closed. It's not a question of accepting the curiously different-than-usual definition of "unstable," it's looking at the pace of change of btrfs versus other filesystems which are actively maintained and noticing that objectively, the pace of change isn't that different, neither are the reported issues. I note that the comments you linked to are *unsubstantiated opinion*, not objective data, and it's the opinion of a maintenance engineer who, frankly, gets a few things objectively incorrect when expressing this opinion, which even he notes is paraphrased from a source outside Redhat. This doesn't seem to be the official opinion of Redhat, though the maintenance engineer does point out that Redhat has invested heavily in the feature set of other file systems, and pushes Stratis. This is, of course, their prerogative, but the only data in evidence here is that Redhat is supporting Stratis and removing btrfs. Objectively, btrfs has supported COW since it was first considered stable in 2009. This is on the feature list for XFS, which is being actively developed, foundational elements being added in 2016. This fits your definition of "unstable." ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: Michael Stowe wrote at about 20:50:45 + on Wednesday, February 10, 2021: > On 2021-02-09 16:34, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: > > > >> G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:26:30 + on > >> Friday, February 5, 2021: > >> > > >> > [Red Hat is] dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd > >> > like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. > >> > It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a > >> > decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way > >> > until it expires during the heat death of the universe. > >> > >> Any objective data or recent link to such instability. > >> Would be very interested in validating that. > > > > https://access.redhat.com/discussions/3138231 > > Not sure if you misunderstood the question, or didn't follow the link, > or didn't realize it appeared earlier in the thread, but that absolutely > does not qualify as objective data, nor is it particularly accurate. Good point! While people will (and should) compare the pros/cons of different filesystems until the end of time (like vi vs. emacs), it is either naive or highly partisan to think that a well-distributed and accepted filesystem like btrfs is 'unstable'. I don't want to get into a pointless argument but I do feel the need to get the point across. Apparently I haven't yet done a good job of that. The problem seems to be that people don't understand what's meant in this context by the word 'unstable'. Several people seem to think it means "contains faults". It doesn't. It means that it's a moving target. In the case of BTRFS it's been a moving target more or less since its creation, and people at Red Hat were unable to keep up with it for that reason. Which is what I said at the outset, and what is expressed in comments in the link I posted. (This is, incidentally and despite specious argument to the contrary, perfectly objective.) Each of us must draw his own conclusions about how a lack of stability might or might not affect any uses which he might make of any product. In this case, I've drawn mine and I consider the matter now closed. -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Michael Stowe wrote at about 20:50:45 + on Wednesday, February 10, 2021: > On 2021-02-09 16:34, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: > > > >> G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:26:30 + on > >> Friday, February 5, 2021: > >> > > >> > [Red Hat is] dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way > >> > they'd > >> > like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. > >> > It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a > >> > decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way > >> > until it expires during the heat death of the universe. > >> > >> Any objective data or recent link to such instability. > >> Would be very interested in validating that. > > > > https://access.redhat.com/discussions/3138231 > > Not sure if you misunderstood the question, or didn't follow the link, > or didn't realize it appeared earlier in the thread, but that absolutely > does not qualify as objective data, nor is it particularly accurate. > Good point! While people will (and should) compare the pros/cons of different filesystems until the end of time (like vi vs. emacs), it is either naive or highly partisan to think that a well-distributed and accepted filesystem like btrfs is 'unstable'. There are huge corporations with investments, capabilities, and data exposure (infinitely larger than mine) that have been working with btrfs for years. It is ridiculous to think that any modern (non experimental) Linux distro would include btrfs as an option let alone as sometimes the default if it were fundamentally unstable. Could there be bugs yet to be uncovered? Sure - that's true for all software and shown in practice every day. Is it likely to be a common, devastating bug that will destroy the average users filesystem (vs. some rare perhaps never to be seen in the real world edge case) -- highly unlikely given the degree of development, review, and real-world use to date. The chance that my data is corrupted due to a hard disk failure, power line surge, or other hardware/software error (let alone my own user error) is likely 10 orders of magnitude higher than intrinsic btrfs instability. There may be many reasons not to choose btrfs but calling it blanket 'unstable' discredits any real arguments one might have. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On 2021-02-09 16:34, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: Hi there, On Tue, 9 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:26:30 + on Friday, February 5, 2021: > > [Red Hat is] dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd > like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. > It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a > decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way > until it expires during the heat death of the universe. Any objective data or recent link to such instability. Would be very interested in validating that. https://access.redhat.com/discussions/3138231 Not sure if you misunderstood the question, or didn't follow the link, or didn't realize it appeared earlier in the thread, but that absolutely does not qualify as objective data, nor is it particularly accurate. RedHat is supporting Stratis; it doesn't seem any more complicated (or objective) than that. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Tue, 9 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:26:30 + on Friday, February 5, 2021: > > [Red Hat is] dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd > like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. > It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a > decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way > until it expires during the heat death of the universe. Any objective data or recent link to such instability. Would be very interested in validating that. https://access.redhat.com/discussions/3138231 -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:26:30 + on Friday, February 5, 2021: > > I'm using CentOS, and it looks like Red Hat is dropping btrfs ... > > They're dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd > like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. > It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a > decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way > until it expires during the heat death of the universe. > Any objective data or recent link to such instability. Would be very interested in validating that. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Sun, 7 Feb 2021, Les Mikesell wrote: ... I have had several drive hardware failures and one instance of one port on a powered USB hub going bad with intermittent failures causing disc corruption. Glad you mentioned that. There's a seven port hub here which has duct tape stuck over one of its ports because that one port (and only that port) has given us intermittent troubles over several years. It's my guess that there's something marginal, rather than something like a dry soldered joint which in my experience will give progressively more trouble until at last it fails completely. The last thing you want in any computer system is something that's marginal, you'll never be able to figure out what's going on. I cut my design teeth on 74-series logic noise immunity in the 1970s. :/ -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:38 AM G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: > Frankly I don't know. Like Mr. Mikesell I've had good experience with > the tools for EXT4, but my wife has managed to trash at least one EXT4 > partition by simply plugging a USB device into a powered USB hub which > at the time happened to be supporting the USB disc drive on a Pi4B. Just as another anecdote, I have run one or more USB drives connected to an imac for time machine backups and extra storage for many, many years and while I've never seen anything that I blame on 'generic USB' connections, I have had several drive hardware failures and one instance of one port on a powered USB hub going bad with intermittent failures causing disc corruption. As a side note, I've come to appreciate a feature of the mac's time machine that was added at some point and I don't think it was very well publicized. If you connect 2 drives configured as time machine backups and keep them both connected it will automatically alternate between them. Since it runs every hour, I think this is a more robust scheme than using raid for redundancy with the things that can go wrong in raid recovery. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: So what filesystem is safest to run over USB? Frankly I don't know. Like Mr. Mikesell I've had good experience with the tools for EXT4, but my wife has managed to trash at least one EXT4 partition by simply plugging a USB device into a powered USB hub which at the time happened to be supporting the USB disc drive on a Pi4B. Unfortunately the recovery tools failed in that case (and in fact they seemed to compound the problems). Fortunately the drive itself didn't seem to have been damaged, and the loss was limited primarily to our convenience copies of about a thousand movies. No small loss of her time copying them I'm afraid. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass_storage_device_class#Design which explains one reason to be very cautious about what you do with your drives if they're connected via a USB interface. There's often no obvious way to find out what commands the interface supports other than trial and error, which could work out expensive. -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:00 PM Robert Trevellyan < robert.trevell...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:41 PM Les Mikesell wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:25 PM Robert Trevellyan >> wrote: >> >> > I'm pretty sure my Ubuntu systems are not using FUSE to access ZFS. If >> that means I have to trust the lawyers for Canonical as to the legality of >> using ZFS on Ubuntu, so be it. >> >> https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/13/zfs_linux/ >> >> Torvalds declared: "Don't use ZFS. It's that simple." >> >> So, there's always freebsd... > > > I'm not seeking "a Torvalds stamp of approval" on my systems. > Late to the conversation, but it's not really about "Linus", ZFS is NOT GPL compliant. You can care about that or not, but that's up to you. I agree from all I can tell that it's a superior file system but that doesn't change the fact their licensing sucks. CDDL has issues which is the same reason conical cdrecord is not implemented in FOSS distros like Fedora. Thanks, Richard ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:41 PM Les Mikesell wrote: > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:25 PM Robert Trevellyan > wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure my Ubuntu systems are not using FUSE to access ZFS. If > that means I have to trust the lawyers for Canonical as to the legality of > using ZFS on Ubuntu, so be it. > > https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/13/zfs_linux/ > > Torvalds declared: "Don't use ZFS. It's that simple." > > So, there's always freebsd... I'm not seeking "a Torvalds stamp of approval" on my systems. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Les Mikesell wrote at about 13:40:00 -0600 on Friday, February 5, 2021: > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:25 PM Robert Trevellyan > wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure my Ubuntu systems are not using FUSE to access ZFS. If > > that means I have to trust the lawyers for Canonical as to the legality of > > using ZFS on Ubuntu, so be it. > > https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/13/zfs_linux/ > > Torvalds declared: "Don't use ZFS. It's that simple." > > So, there's always freebsd... > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikes...@gmail.com > The following makes clear that ZFS for Ubuntu can be either a kernel module or FUSE. Also, the article touts all the claimed benefits of ZFS... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZFS ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:25 PM Robert Trevellyan wrote: > I'm pretty sure my Ubuntu systems are not using FUSE to access ZFS. If that > means I have to trust the lawyers for Canonical as to the legality of using > ZFS on Ubuntu, so be it. https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/13/zfs_linux/ Torvalds declared: "Don't use ZFS. It's that simple." So, there's always freebsd... -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:34 PM Les Mikesell wrote: > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:02 PM Robert Trevellyan > wrote: > > > Problematic in what way? It's been silky smooth for me with Ubuntu. > > Because it is not GPL and the kernel has a restriction against linking > anything that can't be distributed under the GPL. So, you either have > the overhead of FUSE or questionable legality. > I'm pretty sure my Ubuntu systems are not using FUSE to access ZFS. If that means I have to trust the lawyers for Canonical as to the legality of using ZFS on Ubuntu, so be it. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:02 PM Robert Trevellyan wrote: > Problematic in what way? It's been silky smooth for me with Ubuntu. Because it is not GPL and the kernel has a restriction against linking anything that can't be distributed under the GPL. So, you either have the overhead of FUSE or questionable legality. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
>>> Problematic in what way? It's been silky smooth for me with Ubuntu >From what I've read, ZFS on Linux is not GPL compliant. Doug ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:53 PM Les Mikesell wrote: > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:45 AM Robert Trevellyan > wrote: > > > > > Is there any reason not to choose ZFS? Even without redundancy, you'll > at least know if it's corrupted. > > ZFS on Linux is always problematic because Linus wants it to be. > Ext4 is the path of least resistance and I've always found its tools > to be good at repairs (had trouble with XFS long ago, back when it's > speed of creating/deleting files made it seem to be worth using) Problematic in what way? It's been silky smooth for me with Ubuntu. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:45 AM Robert Trevellyan wrote: > > Is there any reason not to choose ZFS? Even without redundancy, you'll at > least know if it's corrupted. ZFS on Linux is always problematic because Linus wants it to be. Ext4 is the path of least resistance and I've always found its tools to be good at repairs (had trouble with XFS long ago, back when it's speed of creating/deleting files made it seem to be worth using). -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:34 PM wrote: > G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:44:57 + on Friday, > February 5, 2021: > > Hi there, > > > > On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 Les Mikesell wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM wrote: > > > > > > > ... Snapshots have also saved me when I have run across the > occasional > > > > backuppc gremlin of disappearing files in that I can find the cpool > > > > file and revert it from past snapshots. > > > > > > Are you sure that the disappearing files aren't a quirk of btrfs in > > > the first place? > > > > > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) > > > > Seriously, I've never seen a BackupPC file "disappear" - but are we not > > in danger of missing the point that the OP is planning that this drive > > will use a USB interface? > > > > Be *very* careful with any 'modern' filesystem if you use a USB > interface. > > I've seen filesystems trashed by USB communication failures, and the > more > > 'modern' the filesystem, the more irretrievable seems to be the failure. > > > > My advice would be don't do that, unless you're comfortable with trashed > > filesystems and it won't matter to you very much when it happens. > > So what filesystem is safest to run over USB? > Is there any reason not to choose ZFS? Even without redundancy, you'll at least know if it's corrupted. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote at about 14:44:57 + on Friday, February 5, 2021: > Hi there, > > On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 Les Mikesell wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM wrote: > > > > > ... Snapshots have also saved me when I have run across the occasional > > > backuppc gremlin of disappearing files in that I can find the cpool > > > file and revert it from past snapshots. > > > > Are you sure that the disappearing files aren't a quirk of btrfs in > > the first place? > > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) > > Seriously, I've never seen a BackupPC file "disappear" - but are we not > in danger of missing the point that the OP is planning that this drive > will use a USB interface? > > Be *very* careful with any 'modern' filesystem if you use a USB interface. > I've seen filesystems trashed by USB communication failures, and the more > 'modern' the filesystem, the more irretrievable seems to be the failure. > > My advice would be don't do that, unless you're comfortable with trashed > filesystems and it won't matter to you very much when it happens. So what filesystem is safest to run over USB? ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On 2021-02-05 06:26, G.W. Haywood via BackupPC-users wrote: Hi there, On Thu, 4 Feb 2021, Kenneth Porter wrote: On Wed, 3 Feb 2021, backuppc@kosowsky wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021, Kenneth Porter wrote: > > > I'm deploying a system with an external (USB) 1.5 TB drive. How should I > > format it? (Ie. which filesystem is best for this?) > > I just built backuppc for my Raspberry PI and ordered an external SSD > drive that I plan to format in btrfs. I'm using CentOS, and it looks like Red Hat is dropping btrfs ... They're dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way until it expires during the heat death of the universe. Almost none of this is true. It seems to pretty accurately reflect Red Hat's justification for dropping support, which I don't oppose; they can do whatever they want. However, BTRFS has been stable since 2013. There are a number of features (planned and implemented) which aren't production ready, which you'll note doesn't substantially differ from any actively developed filesystem that hasn't stagnated. For a backup system, I wouldn't even consider BTRFS. If I were going to try BTRFS for anything at all (I have no reason at all to want to explore that kind of a headache) then first I'd create an EXT4 filesystem, and then I'd convert that to BTRFS in situ. Then, if all else failed, I could revert to EXT4 at, er, the drop of a hat. Theoretically. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 Les Mikesell wrote: On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM wrote: > ... Snapshots have also saved me when I have run across the occasional > backuppc gremlin of disappearing files in that I can find the cpool > file and revert it from past snapshots. Are you sure that the disappearing files aren't a quirk of btrfs in the first place? :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) Seriously, I've never seen a BackupPC file "disappear" - but are we not in danger of missing the point that the OP is planning that this drive will use a USB interface? Be *very* careful with any 'modern' filesystem if you use a USB interface. I've seen filesystems trashed by USB communication failures, and the more 'modern' the filesystem, the more irretrievable seems to be the failure. My advice would be don't do that, unless you're comfortable with trashed filesystems and it won't matter to you very much when it happens. -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi there, On Thu, 4 Feb 2021, Kenneth Porter wrote: On Wed, 3 Feb 2021, backuppc@kosowsky wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021, Kenneth Porter wrote: > > > I'm deploying a system with an external (USB) 1.5 TB drive. How should I > > format it? (Ie. which filesystem is best for this?) > > I just built backuppc for my Raspberry PI and ordered an external SSD > drive that I plan to format in btrfs. I'm using CentOS, and it looks like Red Hat is dropping btrfs ... They're dropping BTRFS because they can't support it in the way they'd like to for their commercial customers. That's because it's unstable. It's been said that it's been almost ready for production for about a decade, and I can't help thinking that it will probably stay that way until it expires during the heat death of the universe. For a backup system, I wouldn't even consider BTRFS. If I were going to try BTRFS for anything at all (I have no reason at all to want to explore that kind of a headache) then first I'd create an EXT4 filesystem, and then I'd convert that to BTRFS in situ. Then, if all else failed, I could revert to EXT4 at, er, the drop of a hat. Theoretically. -- 73, Ged. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM wrote: > > Also, I find btrfs snapshots to be very valuable. Especially, if I am > messing/playing around with backuppc... that way I can easily revert > if I mess something up... > > Snapshots have also saved me when I have run across the occasional > backuppc gremlin of disappearing files in that I can find the cpool > file and revert it from past snapshots. Are you sure that the disappearing files aren't a quirk of btrfs in the first place? -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Michael Stowe wrote at about 03:57:34 + on Friday, February 5, 2021: > On 2021-02-04 16:27, Kenneth Porter wrote: > > --On Thursday, February 04, 2021 5:13 PM +0100 Alexander Kobel > > wrote: > > > >> Distro support is a serious thing to consider. In general, backuppc > >> will > >> happily work with whatever is the default file system of your > >> distribution. For CentOS and RedHat, XFS is the obvious choice, and > >> BTRFS > >> will not give you any benefit except for compression, but potentially > >> a > >> wealth of trouble. You shouldn't need a whole lot of fancy features > >> like > >> snapshotting, copy-on-write, deduplication etc. on your pool anyways. > > > > I think I'm down to XFS vs ext4. Are there any strong advantages of > > either for use as a BackupPC pool? > > For what it's worth, I don't recommend XFS. I used XFS for quite a > while specifically with BackupPC, and the problem was fairly subtle > corruption that XFS could not recover from. > > I also disagree that one doesn't need copy-on-write. Presumably, you > want your backups to be reliable, and not implode at the first power > failure? > > On the other hand, I've heavily used btrfs, and I'm with Kosowsky, it's > absolutely rock solid. I wouldn't recommend its RAID5 or 6 > implementations, but it's proven to be excellent in a mirror or singles. > If you're using Red Hat, you might want to go with ext4, otherwise, > btrfs or ext4 are excellent choices. xfs isn't. Also, I find btrfs snapshots to be very valuable. Especially, if I am messing/playing around with backuppc... that way I can easily revert if I mess something up... Snapshots have also saved me when I have run across the occasional backuppc gremlin of disappearing files in that I can find the cpool file and revert it from past snapshots. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On 2021-02-04 16:27, Kenneth Porter wrote: --On Thursday, February 04, 2021 5:13 PM +0100 Alexander Kobel wrote: Distro support is a serious thing to consider. In general, backuppc will happily work with whatever is the default file system of your distribution. For CentOS and RedHat, XFS is the obvious choice, and BTRFS will not give you any benefit except for compression, but potentially a wealth of trouble. You shouldn't need a whole lot of fancy features like snapshotting, copy-on-write, deduplication etc. on your pool anyways. I think I'm down to XFS vs ext4. Are there any strong advantages of either for use as a BackupPC pool? For what it's worth, I don't recommend XFS. I used XFS for quite a while specifically with BackupPC, and the problem was fairly subtle corruption that XFS could not recover from. I also disagree that one doesn't need copy-on-write. Presumably, you want your backups to be reliable, and not implode at the first power failure? On the other hand, I've heavily used btrfs, and I'm with Kosowsky, it's absolutely rock solid. I wouldn't recommend its RAID5 or 6 implementations, but it's proven to be excellent in a mirror or singles. If you're using Red Hat, you might want to go with ext4, otherwise, btrfs or ext4 are excellent choices. xfs isn't. -- Michael ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
--On Thursday, February 04, 2021 5:13 PM +0100 Alexander Kobel wrote: Distro support is a serious thing to consider. In general, backuppc will happily work with whatever is the default file system of your distribution. For CentOS and RedHat, XFS is the obvious choice, and BTRFS will not give you any benefit except for compression, but potentially a wealth of trouble. You shouldn't need a whole lot of fancy features like snapshotting, copy-on-write, deduplication etc. on your pool anyways. I think I'm down to XFS vs ext4. Are there any strong advantages of either for use as a BackupPC pool? ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Hi, On 2/4/21 5:02 AM, Kenneth Porter wrote: On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: I just built backuppc for my Raspberry PI and ordered an external SSD drive that I plan to format in btrfs. I'm using CentOS, and it looks like Red Hat is dropping btrfs in favor of other filesystems: (also in the light of last week's thread about BTRFS+compression) a very valid point. BTRFS is in the kernel, so it's unlikely that you won't find a system to read your files from anytime soon. But obviously, there's a mixed bag of opinions about BTRFS - RedHat ends support in 2019, and Fedora makes it the default in 2020? Seriously? I'm at loss there. Distro support is a serious thing to consider. In general, backuppc will happily work with whatever is the default file system of your distribution. For CentOS and RedHat, XFS is the obvious choice, and BTRFS will not give you any benefit except for compression, but potentially a wealth of trouble. You shouldn't need a whole lot of fancy features like snapshotting, copy-on-write, deduplication etc. on your pool anyways. Cheers, Alex smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, backu...@kosowsky.org wrote: I just built backuppc for my Raspberry PI and ordered an external SSD drive that I plan to format in btrfs. I'm using CentOS, and it looks like Red Hat is dropping btrfs in favor of other filesystems: https://access.redhat.com/discussions/3138231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907771 ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
Re: [BackupPC-users] Which filesystem for external backup drive?
Kenneth Porter wrote at about 18:11:05 -0800 on Wednesday, February 3, 2021: > I'm deploying a system with an external (USB) 1.5 TB drive. How should I > format it? (Ie. which filesystem is best for this?) I expect to mount it to > /mnt/BackupPC and then loopback mount a subdirectory to /var/lib/BackupPC. > (Another subdirectory will get a copy of /etc/BackupPC.) I just built backuppc for my Raspberry PI and ordered an external SSD drive that I plan to format in btrfs. ___ BackupPC-users mailing list BackupPC-users@lists.sourceforge.net List:https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/backuppc-users Wiki:https://github.com/backuppc/backuppc/wiki Project: https://backuppc.github.io/backuppc/
