Re: [board-discuss] Reminder: BoD Call on Wednesday

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 13.05.2013 17:28, schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello,
>
> this is a quick reminder that the next BoD call takes place this
> Wednesday at 1500 UTC. If you cannot make it, please nominate your
> deputy in time.
>
> The dial-in details as well as an agenda you can add items to is
> available at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Meetings
>
>
I'll not attend because I'm representing TDF at the Stiftungstag in
Düsseldorf the whole day.

Best regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] hiring Christian Lohmaier

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 10.06.2013 18:15, schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Dear community,
>
> in its last private meeting, the board of directors has made a
> decision I would like to share with you today.
>
> We decided to offer Christian Lohmaier a work contract, for a limited
> period of one year, part-time with 20 hours per week, specifically for
> web development. This involves developing, enhancing and bug fixing
> our web applications, like our CMS system, and like the new download
> page.
>
> Given TDF runs more and more applications that are critical, and has
> very special requirements e.g. in terms of localization and
> scaleability, which are not always met by the upstream products we
> run, several community members have proposed paying someone with
> development skills - especially in PHP, Python, Perl, C, C++, Java -
> to implement those requests.
>
> After careful research, the board has come to the decision that hiring
> Christian Lohmaier on a part-time, time-limited basis specifically for
> these development tasks is the most economical solution, and will
> provide huge benefits to the wider community. Code produced will,
> wherever possible, be also filed upstream, to the benefit of the open
> source products we use.
>
> Christian has been around for many years, contributing a lot
> especially to our web applications, and the board is looking forward
> to have a fixed amount of his time in the future.
>
> The total costs for TDF, including dues employer, translate to
> approximately 25.000 € per year.
>
> After the contract has been drafted now and sent to the board in
> private, I hereby ask the board to
>
> 1. vote on hiring Christian Lohmaier, for a limited period of one
> year, part-time with 20 hours per week, specifically for web
> development, at costs not exceeding 25.000 € per year,
> 
> 2. authorize Thorsten Behrens and me to sign the work contract on
> behalf of TDF
> 
> Looking forward to working with Christian!
>
+1 from my side. I'm looking forward to some Python website hacking ;-)

Best regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] daylight savings and board call time

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 20.10.2013 19:57, schrieb Italo Vignoli:
> On 10/20/2013 07:22 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>
>> My preference is moving to 1600 UTC, keeping effective time the same.
> I agree.
>
+1

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Running for a Board of Directors Seat at the TDF

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

I'll run for a Board of Directors seat at the Document Foundation again.

I'm Andreas Mantke, now 54 years old, and I live in Duisburg,
North-Rhine-Westfalia, Germany. I work in the office of a social
security institution called Deutsche Rentenversicherung Rheinland in
Düsseldorf and had to deal with rules and regulations there.

I worked since autumn 2002 for the community of LibreOffice and it's
antecessor. I was responsible there for the documentation inside the
German speaking lang-project for long time, wrote some free licensed
howtos myself and started work on the portable version of the office
suite. I worked also with the former extensions and templates site and
upgraded the ODFAuthors site to a newer Plone environment.

I gave also some presentations about the office suite and documentation
at conferences and other events and run some boothes together with other
project members. I'm with TDF and LibreOffice since it's announcement.

I'm one of the founders of the German association Freies Office
Deutschland e.V., but I have no special role there.

Once LibreOffice was born I continued my work with presentations and
running boothes together with other project members, e.g. at Open Rhein
Ruhr in Oberhausen, at the Cebit in Hannover and at LinuxTag in Berlin.
Alongside I worked on a new environment for the Authors documentation
team and made a few easy commits to the source code of LibreOffice. I
created the new LibreOffice extensions and template repository and the
conference sites for the LibreOffice conferences in Berlin and Milan,
which I maintain.

In the last nearly two years I served on the BoD as a deputy member and
worked together with the other board members to shape and grow up the
foundation. I want to continue this work, because our way of the
development of an open source and free office software within a own
independent meritocratic organization showed already success and I'm
convinced that we should go further in this direction with openness and
transparency as we already did.

Cheers,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Reminder: BoD call next Wednesday

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 09.12.2013 20:27, schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Florian Effenberger wrote:
>> this is a short reminder that our next BoD call is Wednesday,
>> December 11, at 1600 UTC.
>>
> There is the slight chance I cannot make it (travelling that day), in
> case that happens, I authorize Andreas and Jesus (in that order) to
> represent me.
if the Deutsche Bahn works as expected I'll attend the meeting and could
jump in.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Re: Accepting my position in the Board

[Andreas Mantke]

I, Andreas Mantke, elected Deputy Director of the Board of The
Document Foundation, hereby accept this position within the Stiftung
bürgerlichen Rechts "The Document Foundation". My term will start
February 18, 2014.

Signed: Andreas Mantke

Ich, Andreas Mantke, gewähltes Ersatz-Vorstandsmitglied der The
Document Foundation, nehme mein Amt innerhalb der Stiftung bürgerlichen
Rechts "The Document Foundation" an. Meine Amtszeit beginnt am 18.
Februar 2014.

Signed: Andreas Mantke

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Re: [board-discuss] Resigning from TDF Board of Directors

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Adam, Thorsten, all,

Am 12.03.2015 um 20:19 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Hi Adam,
>
> you wrote:
>> I am writing to inform you that I am officially resigning from
>> my position as member of the board of directors of The Document
>> Foundation, effective Sunday, March 8th 2015. As I am an employee of
>> CloudOn, and CloudOn has been recently acquired by Dropbox - I am
>> resigning so I can focus on my new role at Dropbox.
>>
>> I thank all of you for the extremely interesting & educating
>> experience this has been. I am honored to have served alongside the
>> other outstanding board members. Thank you for giving me the
>> opportunity to have been a part of The Document Foundation.
>>
> Personally, on behalf of the board, and I'm certain on behalf of the
> entire community, I'd like to express my sincerest gratitude for
> everything you've done -- both personally and as a representative for
> CloudOn, inside the board, for the community, and for the LibreOffice
> project.

first of all I want to thank you, Adam, very much for your work for and
support of The Document Foundation, it's community and LibreOffice.

>
> In such a case, our statutes foresee that the first deputy is promoted
> to being a member of the Board of Directors.
>
> It is thus my duty, and my honour to ask you, Andreas Mantke, if you
> accept your promotion to being a full member of Board of Directors of
> The Document Foundation, effective Sunday, March 8th 2015?

I accept the promotion to being a member of the Board of Directors of The
Document Foundation from this day forward and will start my duty as such
on March 12th, 2015.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Representation in my absence

[Andreas Mantke]

I, Andreas Mantke, elected member of the board of The Document
Foundation, hereby and until further notice, nominate the following
deputies to represent me during board calls, in the order set forth below:

 1. Deputy Eike Rathke
 2. Deputy Norbert Thiebaud

Regards,
Andreas Mantke

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Re: [board-discuss] cooperation with Do-FOSS?

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 14.07.2015 um 01:38 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Florian Effenberger wrote:
>> We would be thrilled if we could expand our effort of providing a
>> knowledge and partnership to the city council of Dortmund by adding
>> the Document Foundation. For example the experience the city of
>> Munich has made through the LiMux-Project could contribute to our
>> aim very valuably.
>>
> Hi Florian, all,
>
> this looks rather supportable to me. While I don't think TDF's main
> purpose is lobbying, we're certainly well-placed to share best
> practices, and help as a go-between Do-FOSS and our ecosystem.
>
> So +1 from me.
+1 for me too.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Running for a Board of Directors Seat at the TDF

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

I'll run for a Board of Directors seat at the Document Foundation again.

I'm Andreas Mantke, now 56 years old, and I live in Duisburg,
North-Rhine-Westfalia, Germany. I'm unaffilated. This means I don't work for a 
company 
doing business around LibreOffice nor do I earn any money from my work for 
LibreOffice 
and TDF. I'm also not in a (commercial) partnership with a company doing 
business around LibreOffice or TDF.

I'm employed by a social security institution in Düsseldorf and work there in 
the office with files and German regulations.

I'm active in the community of LibreOffice and it's antecessor already since 
autumn 2002. 
Currently I administrate the LibreOffice extensions and templates as well as 
the ODFAuthors website, two sites running on the Content Management System 
Plone. I develop two 
new addons for the LibreOffice extensions and templates website to make it even 
better.
 
Alongside my work with the ODFAuthors and the extensions and templates website 
I run boothes 
together with other project members, e.g. at Open Rhein Ruhr in Oberhausen, at 
the FOSDEM in Brussels, 
at the Cebit in Hannover and at the didacta in Stuttgart.

I served as a deputy member and a member for the last nearly four years and 
worked together with the 
other board members to grow the community of and improve the setting to make it 
even more easy 
to contribute to LibreOffice.

I want to continue this work, because our way of the development of an open 
source and free office 
software within an own independent meritocratic organization showed already 
success. I'm convinced 
that we should go further in this direction, stay with openess, transparency 
and diversity. Thus I'm
a supporter of our transparent budget and financial reports as well as the way 
to tender projects and the like.

Cheers,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Questions for the candidates to the board of directors of the Document Foundation

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 02.11.2015 um 17:38 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
> (...).
>
> 1. Do you commit yourself to have enough time and the necessary
> technological tools in order to participate to the regularly scheduled
> board calls?

Yes. I already did that in the last nearly four years. I asked my
employer for some days of vacation to attend all in-person meetings
(including informal ones).
And I have no issue to use the tools provided by the TDF infra team.

>
>
> 2. Do you commit yourself to follow up and work on (at least) the main
> items and actions you have volunteered to oversee or that have been
> attributed to you by the board?

I did that already within the current board.

>
>
> 3. What are your views on the foundation's budget? How should the
> money be spent, besides our fixed costs?

The project TDF and LibreOffice needs a good technilogical
infrastructure. We invest already in this area and had to go further in
this way. This means not only invest in hardware and the use of free
software but also in growing up the infra structure team that drive this
area (e.g. organize frequent infra meetings/hackfests).
Beside this we need to invest more resources in building local (and
global) communities with technical and non-technical members. We need to
make more local meetings and especially also such with attending devs
and non-technical members.
We should focus more on educating people about our free office suite and
the importance of free standards, especially the default use of ODF.
Thus we need to spend more resources and  money on traveling of
especially local people to events, schools, universities and other
opportunities to get our messages across.
TDF will support the growth of the ecosystem and will point of the
opportunity of business entities to contract developers for implementing
features, fixing bugs etc.

>
>
> 4. Should we work towards broadening our pool of contributors, both
> technical and non-technical?

We already have a vital community of developers and we just contracted a
mentor for (especially new) contributors to the LibreOffice development.
But I think it's important to focus in the same way onto the more
non-technical part. We need to invest more in helping and growing up our
local communities, e.g. support more local community meetings, local
marketing (roadshows, events etc.) (and joint meetings of technical and
non-technical contributors).

>
>
> 5. Should the Foundation -as an entity distinct from the LibreOffice
> project or the Document Liberation project- engage into growing its
> influence and promoting and defending Free Software and Digital
> Freedom? It is, after all, an integral part of its mission per its
> very Statutes. If yes, do you have ideas on what should be done about
> this? 

It's part of the mission and I'm promoting free software and open
standards as often as possible, e.g. I attended meetings about open data
for this reason and talked there about the use of ODF as standard.

> 6. How do you view your (potential) role as a member of the board of
> directors, given that this position does not give you any specific
> functional role inside the LibreOffice or Document Liberation projects?

The members of the board are responsible for running the entity
according to the regulations. Aside this they are only member of the
community with their area of contribution. Their opinions etc.   - like
those of other community member  too - may have some bigger influence in
the discussion process because of their experience and knowledge. But
that has nothing to do with sitting on the board.

>
>
> 7. What is the biggest problem of the foundation in your opinion? What
> is its biggest opportunity?
>
I would not speak about the biggest problem, but it is always an issue
of organisations and it's the field of our biggest opportunity at the
same time:

Organisations as well as groups tend to have their own language and
struggle always with openess, transparency and the culture of welcome.
TDF has done a good job in this field already with making decision,
income and spendings as transparent as possible. We need to go further
in this direction. This is not an easy task, but it is worth to put some
effort into this, especially to strengthen TDF's widely recognized
organisational culture. This will help us to attract more (also
non-technical) contributors and to get supported by other institutions.

Kind regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Running for a Board of Directors Seat at the TDF

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

and here my ~75 word candidate statement:

56 years old, living in Duisburg, Germany, no corporate affiliation. I
worked with the community since 2002 in different areas, e.g. created
and run the extensions/templates-site, gave presentations about our
project and run boothes. I served on the BoD for the last four years and
like to run for another two years, because I believe in our way of a
stable independent meritocratic (open and transparent) organization for
our office software project.

Kind regards,
Andreas


Am 24.11.2015 um 22:16 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Hello,
>
> I'll run for a Board of Directors seat at the Document Foundation again.
>
> I'm Andreas Mantke, now 56 years old, and I live in Duisburg,
> North-Rhine-Westfalia, Germany. I'm unaffilated. This means I don't work for 
> a company 
> doing business around LibreOffice nor do I earn any money from my work for 
> LibreOffice 
> and TDF. I'm also not in a (commercial) partnership with a company doing 
> business around LibreOffice or TDF.
>
> I'm employed by a social security institution in Düsseldorf and work there in 
> the office with files and German regulations.
>
> I'm active in the community of LibreOffice and it's antecessor already since 
> autumn 2002. 
> Currently I administrate the LibreOffice extensions and templates as well as 
> the ODFAuthors website, two sites running on the Content Management System 
> Plone. I develop two 
> new addons for the LibreOffice extensions and templates website to make it 
> even better.
>  
> Alongside my work with the ODFAuthors and the extensions and templates 
> website I run boothes 
> together with other project members, e.g. at Open Rhein Ruhr in Oberhausen, 
> at the FOSDEM in Brussels, 
> at the Cebit in Hannover and at the didacta in Stuttgart.
>
> I served as a deputy member and a member for the last nearly four years and 
> worked together with the 
> other board members to grow the community of and improve the setting to make 
> it even more easy 
> to contribute to LibreOffice.
>
> I want to continue this work, because our way of the development of an open 
> source and free office 
> software within an own independent meritocratic organization showed already 
> success. I'm convinced 
> that we should go further in this direction, stay with openess, transparency 
> and diversity. Thus I'm
> a supporter of our transparent budget and financial reports as well as the 
> way to tender projects and the like.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>


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[board-discuss] Re: Accepting my position in the Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

I, Andreas Mantke, elected Deputy Director of the Board of The Document
Foundation, hereby accept this position within the Stiftung bürgerlichen
Rechts "The Document Foundation". My term will start February 18, 2016.

Signed: Andreas Mantke

Ich, Andreas Mantke, gewähltes Ersatz-Vorstandsmitglied der The Document
Foundation, nehme mein Amt innerhalb der Stiftung bürgerlichen Rechts
"The Document Foundation" an. Meine Amtszeit beginnt am 18. Februar 2016.

Signed: Andreas Mantke

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Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] change of travel policy wrt. kilometers driven

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 31.03.2016 um 14:28 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello,
>
> having received no further questions, I want to put the (changed with
> Thorsten's feedback) proposal up for voting by the board.
>
> The proposal is:
>
> Change our travel policy at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Policies/Travel#Personal_Cars
> to read
>
> Old: "The use of personal cars is permitted, if this is the most
> economic transportation. Using a personal car in any case needs a
> signed travel report, including kilometers travelled. TDF will refund
> 0.30€ per _distance_ kilometer."
>
> New: "The use of personal cars is permitted, if this is the most
> economic transportation. Using a personal car in any case needs a
> signed travel report, including kilometers travelled. TDF will refund
> 0.30€ per _driven_ kilometer.
>
> TDF asks everyone to use the most cost efficient end-to-end means of
> transport for yourself, team-mates and materials. When cheaper public
> transportation is available, it should be preferred. Transporting
> event materials or excessive transfer times might be reasons for
> exemption. If in any doubt, please get confirmation before travel."
>
> Change: Pay 0,30 € per _driven_ instead of _distance_ kilometer,
> effectively doubling the rate. This is in line with the tax
> regulations, but we ask to use reasonable means of transportation to
> keep costs low.

I support this proposal.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

the elections for the next TDF Board of Directors has been started one
and a half week ago. The decision on the list of members that have a
vote in this election has been done by the membership committee in its
current composition. The announcement of the elections was done by the
current chair of the membership committee.

I took not that he nominates himself for the upcoming elections yet,
that he and the MC has to run and oversee.

First: I have no personal issue with him or other members or supporters
of LibreOffice!

Second: I'm not used to a procedure in elections where a candidate is
also the one or part of the group that run and/or oversee the elections
(and/or the entitlement to vote) and I've taken part in elections of
different organizations in the past (smaller and bigger organizations).
And in my opinion a process with a clear separation between 'election
committee' and candidates would be in the best interest of TDF and was
also the perception of the TDF founder (Freies Office Deutschland e.V.).
If the founder would have had another perception, the current regulation
with the MC running the elections for the board and the board running
the elections for the MC wouldn't make that much sense.

Third: I already shared this view with all involved people internal
during the last weeks. My take on this didn't change during the last two
years.

Fourth: I'm also no fan of stepping down during the period of duty to
get the position inside another body.

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, all,

Am 29.10.2017 um 13:02 schrieb K-J LibreOffice:
> Hi Andreas, all,
> Am 29.10.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> the elections for the next TDF Board of Directors has been started one
>> and a half week ago. The decision on the list of members that have a
>> vote in this election has been done by the membership committee in its
>> current composition. The announcement of the elections was done by the
>> current chair of the membership committee.
> 
> That was his job to do until now.
seemed we share not the same view here. I think everyone who consider to
candidate should step down before she/he was involved in any procedure
(also preparing procedure) of the election.

> I asked Cor to make his candidacy as early as possible so that the MC
> has the ability to react. Cor makes this in a fine way (for me) as he
> didn't wait too long.
> 

See above. We didn't share the same view on the best process here.

>> I took not that he nominates himself for the upcoming elections yet,
>> that he and the MC has to run and oversee.
> 
> As he steps down from chair now he won't run or oversee the election.
> We have an exeptional MC-meeting about BoD-election tommorow.
> And the MC has to vote for a new chair.
> 

I didn't share that only the step down from the chair is enough. I
explained that already two years ago in another case.

>> Second: I'm not used to a procedure in elections where a candidate is
>> also the one or part of the group that run and/or oversee the elections
>> (and/or the entitlement to vote) and I've taken part in elections of
>> different organizations in the past (smaller and bigger organizations).
> 
> It is the same as if the BoD has to vote about some tenders for one
> affiliated companies. The part is out of voting, overseeing it or
> something like that.
> 

I wouldn't go to further here. This are two different things, but to add
there is always the risk to get no vote because of too much connected
members of the body.

>> And in my opinion a process with a clear separation between 'election
>> committee' and candidates would be in the best interest of TDF and was
>> also the perception of the TDF founder (Freies Office Deutschland e.V.).
>> If the founder would have had another perception, the current regulation
>> with the MC running the elections for the board and the board running
>> the elections for the MC wouldn't make that much sense.
> 
> See the statutes.
> 

Didn't get your message here.

>> Third: I already shared this view with all involved people internal
>> during the last weeks. My take on this didn't change during the last two
>> years.
>>
>> Fourth: I'm also no fan of stepping down during the period of duty to
>> get the position inside another body.
> 
> That is until now the only way to demonstrate to be not involved in
> election.
> 

I think we talk about different things here. I tried to explain that in
my opinion someone who was elected for two years and didn't explain his
electors in front of his election that he wouldn't serve for two years,
but only for one or a bit more years, creates an issue with his former
electors. He needs to explain, why he'll not serve the whole period and
/or if there is an emergency to apply for another body.

Kind regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Thorsten, Michael, all,

Am 30.10.2017 um 14:34 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Hi Michael, Andreas, *
> 
> letting the rest of the discussion stand for the moment - this much:
> 
> Michael Meeks wrote:
>>  Having said that - in general, it is clearly better for most of the MC
>> to serve a full term so we have continuity in the MC. FWIW - I was
>> rather in favor of 1 year terms for both BoD & MC in the 1st instance
>> which would make this rather less of a problem (IMHO).
>>
> There's a technical problem here, in that board and MC run each
> other's election - so you cannot have them elected both at the same
> time I guess. Which in turn means there's always the issue of people
> wanting to stand for the other body, to not be able to serve their
> full term - regardless of term lengths.
> 

maybe it would have helped a bit, if the election period of the MC ends
in the middle of the election period of the board.

> I don't personally consider people from the MC standing for the board
> to be a large issue - if this is not becoming a habit. Since there's a
> hard problem for TDF, at the very least, should the size of the MC
> shrink below the required number of officers (which is 3, as per
> https://www.documentfoundation.org/statutes.pdf §12, 3).
> 

The number of remaining active members of the MC is one issue. The other
one is the role of the MC in connection to the board (and the other way
around). The tasks (and power) of the MC are written in § 12 I of the
statutes. The statutes foresee that the MC act as independent as
possible from the board (and the other way around too). Thus the people
acting on both bodies shouldn't have immunity of witness because of a or
economic dependence to a member of the the other body.

And a personal view at the end: I think it would be too bad to have a
longer break before one get elected for another body.

Kind regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Cor, all,

Am 31.10.2017 um 08:45 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Andreas, all,
> 
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 30-10-17 23:08:
>> The number of remaining active members of the MC is one issue. The other
>> one is the role of the MC in connection to the board (and the other way
>> around). The tasks (and power) of the MC are written in § 12 I of the
>> statutes. The statutes foresee that the MC act as independent as
>> possible from the board (and the other way around too). Thus the people
>> acting on both bodies shouldn't have immunity of witness because of a or
>> economic dependence to a member of the the other body.
> 
> There is indeed always the situation that people have contact with each
> other, either for work in TDF, business, because of friendship, or
> avoiding because of (ancient) conflict. These may influence how one acts

that's not the topic, I wrote about. I wrote about very close personal
or economic connections, not the usual friendship etc.

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Cor, all,

Am 31.10.2017 um 17:12 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 31-10-17 13:44:
> 
>> that's not the topic, I wrote about. I wrote about very close personal
>> or economic connections, not the usual friendship etc.
> 
> In business, one often makes the most deals with people you're friendly
> with ;)
> So let's try to all be friends and use the appropriate rules to prevent
> personal relations being the stronger argument than rational considerations.
> 

I'm not talking about not being friendly with each other (that's also a
rule written in the statutes), but about the fact that TDF is an
organization with rules and a lot of credit based also on good behavior
and transparent administration/organization.

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Simon, Cor, all,

Am 31.10.2017 um 19:19 schrieb Simon Phipps:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Andreas Mantke  <mailto:ma...@gmx.de>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Cor, all,
> 
> Am 31.10.2017 um 17:12 schrieb Cor Nouws:
>     > Hi Andreas,
> >
> > Andreas Mantke wrote on 31-10-17 13:44:
> >
> >> that's not the topic, I wrote about. I wrote about very close personal
> >> or economic connections, not the usual friendship etc.
> >
> > In business, one often makes the most deals with people you're friendly
> > with ;)
> > So let's try to all be friends and use the appropriate rules to prevent
> > personal relations being the stronger argument than rational 
> considerations.
> >
> 
> I'm not talking about not being friendly with each other (that's also a
> rule written in the statutes), but about the fact that TDF is an
> organization with rules and a lot of credit based also on good behavior
> and transparent administration/organization.
> 
> 
> Andreas, do you have a specific request or proposal?
> 

yes, as I already mentioned and quoted here:

"Thus the people acting on both bodies shouldn't have immunity of
witness because of a or economic dependence to a member of the the other
body."


And another recommendation that I think would be worth to follow:

"I think it would be too bad to have a longer break before one get
elected for another body."

I don't think that a good organization/community need to put this into
rules/statutes, but should have it in their DNA.

Kind regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Cor, all,

Am 31.10.2017 um 20:41 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 31-10-17 19:54:
(...)
> 
>> I don't think that a good organization/community need to put this into
>> rules/statutes, but should have it in their DNA.
> 
> If you think about possibilities to help with that, you're really
> welcome to join/oversee the procedures from the MC in the current
> elections, which is at least one side of that.
>

it's not the best idea to ask a board deputy)( member to oversee the
elections of the board, is it?

And it was not my suggestion to do such things. My recommendation (and
this for the candidacy for both bodies) states that is not the best idea
to try to jump over the fence, because one of them has to have an eye on
the work of the other. But everyone has to think about this situation
himself and decide on himself.

Personal note: I myself would feel very comfortable if I would candidate
for the MC half a year after I left the BoD.

And to illustrate my personal view a bit more: We had already regional
elections and the old government was voted down. A lot of them stayed in
the parliament, but they will not be member of parliamentary
commissions, that debate about topics of their former position (it's no
written rule, but an agreement and everyone knows what to do).

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] Procedure Of TDF Board Elections

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Simon, Cor, all,

Am 31.10.2017 um 20:46 schrieb Simon Phipps:
> 
> 
> On 31 Oct 2017 18:54, "Andreas Mantke"  <mailto:ma...@gmx.de>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Simon, Cor, all,
> 
> Am 31.10.2017 um 19:19 schrieb Simon Phipps:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Andreas Mantke  <mailto:ma...@gmx.de>
> > <mailto:ma...@gmx.de <mailto:ma...@gmx.de>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi Cor, all,
> >
> >     Am 31.10.2017 um 17:12 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> >     > Hi Andreas,
> >     >
> >     > Andreas Mantke wrote on 31-10-17 13:44:
> >     >
> >     >> that's not the topic, I wrote about. I wrote about very
> close personal
> >     >> or economic connections, not the usual friendship etc.
> >     >
> >     > In business, one often makes the most deals with people
> you're friendly
> >     > with ;)
> >     > So let's try to all be friends and use the appropriate rules
> to prevent
> >     > personal relations being the stronger argument than rational
> considerations.
> >     >
> >
> >     I'm not talking about not being friendly with each other
> (that's also a
> >     rule written in the statutes), but about the fact that TDF is an
> >     organization with rules and a lot of credit based also on good
> behavior
> >     and transparent administration/organization.
> >
> >
> > Andreas, do you have a specific request or proposal?
> >
> 
> yes, as I already mentioned and quoted here:
> 
> "Thus the people acting on both bodies shouldn't have immunity of
> witness because of a or economic dependence to a member of the the other
> body."
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't know what this means. Are you requesting
> disqualification of a candidate?
> 

no, because if I don't miss anything, there is only one candidate yet.

Cheers,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] No Candidacy To The Next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

I have thought a lot during the last time, if I should run again for the
next board and came from a mixture of reasons to the conclusion that I
will not run again.

I have been (deputy) member of the board for about six years now and
from my personal view it's time to take a break or a change. I have been
involved in other volunteer projects for a while now and got the offer
to work further within them. I'll take this offer.

I also got a change in my paid work that leads me to some interesting
new topics, but needs some extra energy to get on speed.

That are only two of my reasons.

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] No Candidacy To The Next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael, all,

Am 27.11.2017 um 10:15 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> On 26/11/17 23:56, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> I have been (deputy) member of the board for about six years now and
>> from my personal view it's time to take a break or a change. I have been
>> involved in other volunteer projects for a while now and got the offer
>> to work further within them. I'll take this offer.
> 
>   Thanks for your long and dedicated service ! I really hope you can find
> time to continue to maintain the extensions pieces & your other
> technical contributions to the project.
> 

I can't promise that for the next seven or fifteen years. I'm really
sure that I wouldn't take a workload again, where I used my whole
(awake) spare time to work on the project and take no real vacation,
break etc. and get in return not too much positive feedback, but some
complaint.

I worked on the LibreOffice extensions and templates site and installed
a security patch today.

Cheers,
Andreas
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Re: [board-discuss] Preliminary Results for the 2018 Membership Committee election

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Stephan, all,

Am 14.09.18 um 15:51 schrieb Stephan Bergmann:
> On 14/09/2018 15:31, Miklos Vajna wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:07:33PM +0200, Marina Latini
>>  wrote:
>>> The above preliminary results are in conflict with § 8 IV of our
>>> statutes (https://www.documentfoundation.org/statutes.pdf), with both
>>> Miklos and Jona having the same affiliation. The elected candidates and
>>> the board are currently discussing options to resolve this conflict,
>>> which will likely affect the final results. We will update the members
>>> and the general public on this soon.
>>
>> I talked to Jona and in case we're asked about what is our preference: I
>> propose me stepping down in favor of her (and me initially
>> mentoring/helping her in my place if wanted), i.e. I don't accept the
>> above
>> role.
>>
>> A concern is now that Stephan and me would finish work in the committee,
>> noone remains with stronger technical skills, when it comes to
>> recovering from odd situations with git, gerrit, etc. To cover that, I
>> plan to stick around (initially) so Jona (or another MC member) is
>> trained up and doing this -- again, if this kind of help is requested by
>> the new MC.
>
> Wherever the rule of "no two members of MC with same affiliation" was
> stated (can't find it either in the above-linked PDF nor in the HTML
> version at 
> now), does that extend to MC deputies, too?  If not, one solution to
> the "no technicians in the MC" issue could be that Miklos only steps
> down to deputy level.
>
the rule is, that only one third of the members of a TDF body had to
have the same affiliation (§ 8 IV S. 2 of the statutes): if there are
five members in a body, two of them would be more than one third.

The deputies of the MC are not elected members of the MC and thus the
one third rule is not valid for them (as long as they are deputies).
Once they replace a MC member (possible only after her/his retirement)
the rule applies to the then new member of the MC too.

If an elected member doesn't accept his role, she/he is completely out.
You could not step some positions back (to get deputy).

Cheers,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Acceptance of MC role

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

it would be great, if the German sentence oft acceptance declaration would be 
concordant with the diction in § 12 II S. 5 of the foundation statutes:
not 'stellvertretendes Mitglied' but 'Ersatzmitglied'.

Kind regards,
Andreas

Am 19. September 2018 09:56:33 MESZ schrieb Muhammet Kara 
:
>I, Muhammet Kara, elected Deputy Member of the Membership Committee of 
>The Document
>Foundation, hereby accept this role within the Stiftung bürgerlichen 
>Rechts. My term will start September 19, 2018.
>
>Signed: Muhammet Kara
>
>Ich, Muhammet Kara, gewähltes stellvertretendes Mitglied des 
>Mitglieder-Komitees der The Document Foundation, nehme mein Amt 
>innerhalb der Stiftung bürgerlichen Rechts an. Meine Amtszeit beginnt
>am 
>19. September 2018.
>
>Unterzeichnet: Muhammet Kara
>
>
>On 09/18/2018 05:35 PM, Marina Latini wrote:
>> Dear Muhammet,
>>
>> Let me first take this opportunity to personally congratulate you for
>
>> your election as member of the Membership Committee.
>> Then I kindly invite you to officially accept your position in the MC
>
>> by answering to this message with a "Reply all".
>>
>> With best regards,
>> Marina Latini
>> on behalf of The Document Foundation board of directors
>>
>> ==
>> I, Muhammet Kara, elected Deputy Member of the Membership Committee
>of 
>> The Document
>> Foundation, hereby accept this role within the Stiftung bürgerlichen 
>> Rechts. My term will start September 19, 2018.
>>
>> Signed: Muhammet Kara
>>
>> Ich, Muhammet Kara, gewähltes stellvertretendes Mitglied des 
>> Mitglieder-Komitees der The Document Foundation, nehme mein Amt 
>> innerhalb der Stiftung bürgerlichen Rechts an. Meine Amtszeit beginnt
>
>> am 19. September 2018.
>>
>> Unterzeichnet: Muhammet Kara
>> ==
>>

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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Acceptance of MC role

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 19. September 2018 11:49:42 MESZ schrieb Florian Effenberger 
:
>Hello Andreas,
>
>Andreas Mantke  wrote on Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:12:27 +0200:
>
>> it would be great, if the German sentence oft acceptance declaration
>would be concordant with the diction in § 12 II S. 5 of the foundation
>statutes:
>> not 'stellvertretendes Mitglied' but 'Ersatzmitglied'.
>
>likely my fault for not spotting this, thanks for pointing out. We will
>
>adjust the German translation for future elections.
>

but as a pointer the correct subsumption has impact on the workflow etc. of the 
MC.

Kind regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] [DECISION] - Budget Request promoting LibreOffice/ODF at event for Dutch administrations

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

it's not obvious, why this (discussion and?) decision had been taken in
private and not e.g. on this list.

Because of this process in private the proposal (and decission) looks a
bit disconnected. It's e.g. not explained who is 'me' in connection with
Rob.

Kind regards,
Andreas
>
> the following decision, which was taken in private on 2018-10-04, is
> now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>
> Proposal
> = = = =
>  - spent EUR 4760.- from the marketing budget on key event for (local)
> administrations in The Netherlands to promote ODF and LibreOffice.
>
> Details
> = = = =
> Where and when:
>  - Utrecht, event for (local) administrations, 2018-10-10
>    https://www.jaarbeurs.nl/agenda/2994/overheid-360-2018
>
> What:
>  - promote LibreOffice and ODF:
>  - educate the people on open document standard (again)
>  - educate organizations about their possibilities to use
>    free office-software
>
> Why there:
>  - main event for software and administrations in The Netherlands
>  - there are two clear open source items at the event
>    (presentation from an national agency; initiative for an OSS
>     solution for central software needs of local administrations)
>  - (last minute) timing is not nice, still tired and much to do
>  - but we didn't have any activity yet in The Netherlands and the
>    event is important to keep visibility in these organizations
>
> How:
>  - small table / booth
>  - banner LibreOffice / ODF
>  - sheet LibreOffice
>  - sheet ODF
>  - sheet examples administrations using it.
>  - booth staff and preparing stuff by Rob and me
>    (based on existing marketing materials)
>    (we'll ask assistance at the booth from other members too)
>
> Costs:
>  - total max 4760
>  specified:
>  - booth 4235.-
>  - banners 160.-
>  - info-sheets 315.-
>  - travel costs 50.-
>
> Budget marketing:
>  - so far spent 2.096,17 from 31.500,00
>    (TDF Budget Overview.ods FE 20180920)
>
> The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat
> holders without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to
> have 1/2 of the Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>
> A total of 7 Board of Directors members have participated in the vote.
> The vote is quorate.
>
> From now on, motions can be passed with the agreement of a simple
> majority of those participating. The majority threshold is currently 4.
>
> Result of vote: 6 approvals, 0 disapprovals, 1 abstain.
> Decision: The proposal has been accepted.
>
> This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
>
> Florian
>


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[board-discuss] Plone site & grief

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello all,


Am 05.11.18 um 23:50 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Hi Andi,
> 
> first off, I'm very sorry these things seem to have taken a turn for
> the worse.
> 

that's most often the outcome of a 'special' way of communication.

> I'm trying to move this part of the discussion now off the design
> list, and onto board-discuss, as it seems to primarily deal with
> interaction style, within & from the board. So Fup2 board-discuss
> please.
> 

As I'm not member of the board since Februar this year anymore, I'm not
aware of the communication within the board.

> Beyond some details below, where I'd love to get to is getting over
> personal gripes eventually (on all sides - happy to call you any time,
> to hear what you'd expect here!); perhaps with a way to keep you
> engaged with the community you've helped building, but at least with a
> way for the project to keep the Plone sites running properly for the
> while.
> 

I expect only the way of communication and behavior that I already
described in my previous email.

> Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> There were no real internal discussions with the board about issues.
>>
> Not to put too fine a point on it - but we discussed the issues around
> the queue of pending submissions e.g. in January & February this year,
> on the infra/hostmaster list.
> 
> Also in 2016, a discussion not too different from the one here took
> place inside the board, when looking for options to go beyond the
> first version of the template & extension site.
> 
>> But afterwards I was kicked out by this thread. I'm not used to be
>> pilloried for my work during my spare time. And maybe others too.
>>
> Please don't take this as pillorying you. If it came across like that
> - apologies. In fact, without the original Plone sites, LibreOffice
> wouldn't have had a templates & extension repo for a long time, and no
> one disputes the relevance of that.
> 

It's not important how you think I should not feel, but it's only
important how I feel because of the way of communication from member(s)
of the board.

The member communicated in public about the work I had done for about
seven years, without take in account to discuss the situation or
requests with me first (and get some additional information).
This make it explicit for me, that I shouldn't be part of the discussion
and it descredits my previous work publicly (thus pilloring).

I see this as a line of communication infringements. Because of a
mistake that I did with the administration of the Content Management
System in 2012 I was pointed regularly onto this mistake for about three
or four years. I felt impeached to communicate destructively some month
ago, although I spent a lot of my spare time over the years to attend
events on behalf of TDF/LibreOffice to spread the word about the project and 
its pros.

After some rethinking I had the impression it helped, if I narrowed my 
engagement to
the administration of the extensions and templates website. But then I
got this thread on the design list.

Thus I was disenchanted, that my work inside the project had a real
value especially for the board.

There were no real excuse for this communication style later. The
response to my email three weeks after the thread included second part
(the 'but message'), which were the real message (no real apologize,
but another threat).

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Plone site & grief

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi all,


Am 10.11.18 um 11:10 schrieb Bjoern Michaelsen:

Hi all, On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 03:47:50PM +0100, Thorsten Behrens wrote: 

I think this might be a good occasion to ask our CoC volunteers for help (in 
Cc) - some sort of moderation is perhaps possible? 

FWIW: I, for one, would appreciate such mediation. 

FYI: I already sent an reply to Michael, that and why I not apply for an CoC 
process.

Regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-03-18

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 7. Mai 2019 10:08:07 MESZ schrieb sophi :
>Meeting minutes
>Minutes of the Membership Committee meeting for 2019-Q2 filing.
>
>1. Call to order & Roll Call
>The meeting took place on 2019-03-18.
>Membership Committee Members present: Jona Azizaj, Dennis Roczek,
>Ilmari
>Lauhakangas, Gabriele Ponzo, Gustavo Pacheco
>

I'm curious to know, if the formation of the MC changed or is the listing on 
the TDF website still valid?

Kind regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-03-18

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Gustavo,

thanks for your answer.

Am 07.05.19 um 13:25 schrieb Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco:
> Hi Andreas!
>
> We didn't have changes in the MC and the list of the website is, of
> course, the official list. In the minutes we have only the presents. 
> It was just a coincidence that K-J  wasn't present in this meeting and
> Ilmari yes (if you see the order in the website and the list of
> presents in the minutes, indeed, seems that some change happened but
> it's just a coincidence).
>
> Regards
> Gustavo
>
>
>
> Em ter, 7 de mai de 2019 8:03 AM, Andreas Mantke  <mailto:ma...@gmx.de>> escreveu:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Am 7. Mai 2019 10:08:07 MESZ schrieb sophi  <mailto:so...@libreoffice.org>>:
> >Meeting minutes
> >Minutes of the Membership Committee meeting for 2019-Q2 filing.
> >
> >1. Call to order & Roll Call
> >The meeting took place on 2019-03-18.
> >Membership Committee Members present: Jona Azizaj, Dennis Roczek,
> >Ilmari
> >Lauhakangas, Gabriele Ponzo, Gustavo Pacheco
> >
>
Two things:

- if I read the statutes correctly membership committee deputies are not
members of the MC. Thus in my opinion the sentence above should only
count four members of the MC.

- in my opinion it could be an issue with the European and German
privacy regulation to process personal data among more people than
absolutly necessary.

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2019-07-18

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 23.07.19 um 11:56 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> The Document Foundation
> Board of Directors Meeting 2019-07-18
> Call Minutes
>
> Date: 2019-07-18
> Location: Jitsi
>
> Session chair: Marina Latini
> Keeper of the minutes: Florian Effenberger

it seemed there were no public board meeting scheduled on that day, was it?

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-06-18

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

it seemed the date on the membership website is not in accordance with §
10 paragraph 2 sentence 1 of the statutes.

Kind regards,
Andreas

Am 02.08.19 um 11:08 schrieb sophi:
> Meeting minutes
> Minutes of the Membership Committee meeting for 2019-Q3 filing.
>
> 1. Call to order & Roll Call
>
> The meeting took place on 2019-06-18.
> Present: Gustavo Pacheco (member), Gabriele Ponzo (member), Klaus-Jürgen
> Weghorn (member), Dennis Roczek (member), Ilmari Lauhakangas (deputy member)
>
> 2. New Members
>
> The Membership Committee has received Membership Applications since the
> last review of the Membership Rolls, has reviewed these Applications in
> light of the requirement as defined in the Statutes of The Document
> Foundation, and has decided that the status of Member of The Document
> Foundation will be granted to the following persons, for a period of 1
> (one) year effective the first day of the third quarter of 2019:
>
> Mauricio Baeza
> Grzegorz Araminowicz
> Hidayet Kurnaz
> Urska Colner Vracun
> Sanjog Sigdel
> Ömer Çakmak
> Ayhan Yalçınsoy
> Wangsheng Wang
> Iwan Suryanto Tahari
>
> Approved by unanimous roll call vote.
>
>
> 3. Membership Renewals
>
> The Membership Committee has received Membership Renewal requests since the
> last review of the Membership Rolls. Memberships that are not renewed in a
> timely manner are deemed to have lapsed.
> The Membership Committee has reviewed these Renewal requests in light of
> the requirement as defined in the Statutes of The Document Foundation and
> decided that the following persons have their status of Member of The
> Document Foundation extended until the end of the second quarter of 2020.
>
> Jean-Baptiste Faure
> Klaus-Jürgen Weghorn
> Björn Michaelsen
> Lior Kaplan
> Sverrisson Sveinn í Felli
> Irmhild Rogalla
> Miklos Vajna
> Christian Lohmaier
> Jesper Laugesen
> Kohei Yoshida
> Simon Phipps
> Michael Schinagl
> Thomas Hackert
> Klaibson Natal Ribeiro Borges
> Eliane Domingos de Sousa
> Takeshi Abe
> Christian Kühl
> Marc Paré
> Gustavo Pacheco
> Jean Hollis Weber
> Gerald Geib
> Jochen Schiffers
> László Németh
> Regina Henschel
> Sanjib Narzary
> Valter Mura
> Juan Carlos Sanz Cabrero
> Valdir Barbosa
> Ellen Pape
> Jean Spiteri
> Sam Tuke
> Heiko Tietze
> V Stuart Foote
> Noel John Grandin
> William Gathoye
> Baurzhan Muftakhidinov
> Mohamed Trabelsi
> José Gatica
> Steen Eskild Rønnow
> Ahmad Haris
> Battsengel Ichinnorov
> Jan-Marek Glogowski
>
>
> Approved by unanimous roll call vote.
>
> 4 Adjourning
>
> All business being concluded, the meeting was closed on 2019-06-18.
>
> Meeting minutes approved:
>
> Gustavo Pacheco Keeper of the minutes
> Gabriele Ponzo Chairman
>



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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-09-24

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

it seemed the date on the membership website 
(https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/members/)
is again not in accordance with § 10 paragraph 2 sentence 1 of the statutes.

Kind regards,
Andreas


Am 15.10.19 um 16:12 schrieb Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco:
> Minutes of the Membership Committee meeting for 2019-Q4 filing.
>
> 1. Call to order & Roll Call
>
> The meeting took place on 2019-09-24.
> Membership Committee Members present: Jona Azizaj, Gustavo Buzzatti
> Pacheco, Dennis Roczek, Ilmari Lauhakangas, Gabriele Ponzo
>
> 2. BoD elections (just as a confirmation from previous in person meeting)
> Dates are decided (see last meeting's minutes) but we need to find
> who'll care about Helios voting.
> Gabriele will make some attempt with it, since he used it for LibreItalia
>
> 3. K-J's resignation
> Gabriele: i'd like to invite him to think about remaining…
> MC unanimously accepted K-J's resignation and asked Ilmari to step in
> to replace the vacant position. Ilmari accepted.
> MC will (ask to) remove K-J from Telegram Group, Gerrit, mcm-db, IRC,
> Nextcloud group, Jitsi, ML… and update the Website and Wiki pages.
>
> 4. DashBoard
> See shared MockUp
> Gustavo will share some proposal for updating our tooling (mcm-db) to
> nowadays
>
> 5. Statistics of membership
> On MC Dashboard's home page
>
> 6. 10 years anniversary
> According to marketing programs, do we want to propose something in
> particular from MC?
> As soon as Italo will share the 60 events list, we should think about
> if and who attend them.
> Jona: if we'll have funds, it would be great to give some gadget like
> anniversary t-shirt and/or postcard to everyone in our community.
> Gustavo: according to Italo's speech we (MC) should try to prepare a
> list of oldest members
> Gabriele: I'd like to have a spreadsheet to order member lists by
> "duration" in TDF to have it ready in case we shouldn't enough money
> for everyone.
> Gustavo: I'm gonna prepare it
>
> 7. New Members
>
> The Membership Committee has received Membership Applications since
> the last review of the Membership Rolls, has reviewed these
> Applications in light of the requirement as defined in the Statutes of
> The Document Foundation, and has decided that the status of Member of
> The Document Foundation will be granted to the following persons, for
> a period of 1 (one) year effective the first day of the fourth quarter
> of 2019:
>
> Celia Palacios Gómez-Tagle
> Renato Javier Barsotti
> Ismael Fanlo Boj
> Richard Palusaar
> Jun Meguro
> Petr Valach
> Xiomara Céspedes Jiménez
> Andras Timar
>
> Approved by unanimous roll call vote.
>
>
> 8. Membership Renewals
>
> The Membership Committee has received Membership Renewal requests
> since the last review of the Membership Rolls. Memberships that are
> not renewed in a timely manner are deemed to have lapsed. The
> Membership Committee has reviewed these Renewal requests in light of
> the requirement as defined in the Statutes of The Document Foundation
> and decided that the following persons have their status of Member of
> The Document Foundation extended until the end of the third quarter of
> 2020.
>
> Lothar K. Becker
> Tulio Macedo
> Christophe Cazin
> Leo Moons
> Vitorio Furusho
> Stuart Swales
> Stephan Bergmann
> Arnaud Versini
> Eike Rathke
> Kees Kriek
> Pierre-Yves Samyn
> Gabor Kelemen
> Zeki Bildirici
> Diego Maniacco
> Osvaldo Gervasi
> Matteo Casalin
> Gabriele Ponzo
> Giordano Alborghetti
> Paolo Pelloni
> Dennis Roczek
> Laurent Balland-Poirier
> Ashod Nakashian
> Henry Castro
> Marco Cecchetti
> Tiago Carrondo
> Vasily Melenchuk
> Modestas Rimkus
> Mike Saunders
> Aron Budea
> Timur Gadžo
> Anxhelo Lushka
> Rob Westein
> Jona Azizaj
> Zdeněk Crhonek
> Eric Ficheux
> Silva Arapi
> Jens Carl
> Elisabetta Manuele
> Philippe Hemmel
> Dieter Praas
> Rizal Muttaqin
> Alexandre Arnaud
> Rene Leyva
> Behzat Yildirim
>
> Approved by unanimous roll call vote.
>
> 9 Adjourning
>
> All business being concluded, the meeting was closed on 2019-09-24.
>
> Meeting minutes approved:
>
> Gustavo Pacheco Keeper of the minutes
> Gabriele Ponzo Chairman
>
>
> --
> Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco, member of the Membership Committee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-09-24

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,


Am 15.10.19 um 16:12 schrieb Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco:
> Minutes of the Membership Committee meeting for 2019-Q4 filing.
>
> 1. Call to order & Roll Call
>
> The meeting took place on 2019-09-24.
> Membership Committee Members present: Jona Azizaj, Gustavo Buzzatti
> Pacheco, Dennis Roczek, Ilmari Lauhakangas, Gabriele Ponzo

if there is no mistake in the board-discuss list mail archive, Ilmari
accepted the role as a member of the MC on 2019-09-25 at 10.09 AM. Thus
he was not a
member of the MC during the 2019-09-24.

Kind regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-09-24

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello Florian,

Am 16.10.19 um 10:33 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote:
>
>> if there is no mistake in the board-discuss list mail archive, Ilmari
>> accepted the role as a member of the MC on 2019-09-25 at 10.09 AM. Thus
>> he was not a
>> member of the MC during the 2019-09-24.
>
> one could also argue that § 12 II states that deputies automatically
> replace members leaving the MC. Accepting the new role is a good
> habit, but in any case, none of this does changes the MC decision as
> per § 11 II.
>

First: please decide for the way you want to go and be consequent. Don't
always try to change your rationale. If your new try would be correct,
why you are asking for accepting the role.

In my opinion the association law applies here (because there is no
special rule for foundations available, that is different from the rules
for associations and the statutes also provide no dedicated rule for
this). The membership in the MC is connected with duties. And there is
the rule that nobody could be obligated to do third parties duties. Thus
an acceptance of the role is necessary independent of the way this
acceptance would be declared (if the statutes or the law didn't ask for
a special form).

Thus it is not only a good habit, but necessary.

Kind regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee Meeting minutes 2019-09-24

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Sophie,

Am 16.10.19 um 10:26 schrieb sophi:
> Hi Andreas,
> Le 15/10/2019 à 21:35, Andreas Mantke a écrit :
>> Hello,
>>
>> it seemed the date on the membership website 
>> (https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/members/)
>> is again not in accordance with § 10 paragraph 2 sentence 1 of the statutes.
> Thanks for you feedback, it is now corrected.
> Cheers
> Sophie
>
thanks for your work!

Cheers,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello Paolo,

Am 26.11.19 um 15:53 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:
> Self-nomination for next Board (...)
>
> Full Name: Paolo Vecchi
> E-mail: pa...@omnis-systems.com and pa...@omniscloud.eu
> Affiliation:  Omnis Systems Ltd and Omnis Cloud Sarl
>
I want only to ask a short question. I looked on the Omnis Systems
website and wonder, if you are providing NextCloud and Koprano with text
editing as a service, aren't you?

Kind regards,
Andreas



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[board-discuss] Diversity Is Key?

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

there is the view that diversity is key for a successful community,
leading body etc.  This counts for open source communities and their
(leading) bodies too.

I had a look into the applications for the next TDF board and found
there the narration 'while our user base is amazingly diverse, and so is
our  community (...)'.

This makes me curious and I tried to find out, if the applications
reflects this narration.

First I had a look at gender of the candidates and thought that among
them would be more women than among the members of the German federal
parliament (Deutscher Bundestag):
https://www.bundestag.de/abgeordnete/biografien/mdb_zahlen_19/frauen_maenner-529508
709 members, 221 women and 488 men; about 31 % female members.
TDF board candidates: 12 candidates, 0 women, 12 men;  accurate 0 % women.
Thus the prediction about the gender relation of the next TDF board is
not that difficult. There will not be any gender diversity.

The newspapers and news pages  in Germany talk about a Swedish study
today that women are the better leaders, because of their soft skills.

I looked further around for amazingly diversity among the candidates.
But I don't get the information that among them is someone who is not
working inside the IT business. Is this an effigy of the current TDF
community?

Let's have a look at the affiliation of the candidates. One of them
declared him 'an independent candidate', something that alerted me and
made me suspicious. And I found this:
http://samtuke.com/tag/collabora/
and
http://samtuke.com/2015/12/goodbye-collabora-hello-phplist/

But the message of the declaration 'an independent candidate' could read
as: I'm the only independent candidate.

Let's have a look on the affiliation of the candidates: five or more (?)
of the twelf candidates have an affiliation with one company: about 41%.

It seemed this overcompensate the missing balance between female and
male board candidates ;-)

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Diversity Is Key?

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael,

Am 29.11.19 um 10:59 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
>   As you know, I'm a fan of you & your work on improving LibreOffice.

thank you. I know that.

But as you know there were some behaviors from key TDF members which
throw me out of the project. I worked only voluntary and since Feb. 2018
as pure volunteer.
I enjoyed the view on TDF from a pure volunteer since then with all
features ;-)
And I got a more balanced view (different from the view from the inner
circle).

>
>   What you write is (I assume) intended as humorous, but doesn't seem a 
> terribly fair characterization from many angles.

In some cases it's a bit of humor (not common for Germans?).

>
>   I'm rather encouraged that lots of board members want to make TDF a 
> safe place for diverse people to get involved and interact,
> that seems like a good thing to me.
>
>   I'm also -extremely- grateful for everyone who steps up to volunteer 
> their time to help take part in our governance - they rock!

It's always fine to have volunteers which stand for running the
governance. But I'm a fan of real and wide spread diversity among them.
If you have a look into the statutes of TDF
and the spirit between the lines you will see this as the DNA of the
foundation.
From my current perspective I would change § 8 IV S. 2 of the statutes
from 'one third of the members' to 'one member'. But this is only my own
opinion.

> (...)
>
>   Hope all's well,
Yes and I got more time for spare time activities others than reading
emails, coding and server / website administration ;-)

And I had also to spend a lot of energy to get into new topics of my
payed job.

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 27.11.19 um 18:42 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Hello Paolo,
>
> Am 26.11.19 um 15:53 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:
>> Self-nomination for next Board (...)
>>
>> Full Name: Paolo Vecchi
>> E-mail: pa...@omnis-systems.com and pa...@omniscloud.eu
>> Affiliation:  Omnis Systems Ltd and Omnis Cloud Sarl
>>
> I want only to ask a short question. I looked on the Omnis Systems
> website and wonder, if you are providing NextCloud and Koprano with text
> editing as a service, aren't you?

because there is no answer to my question, I assume the answer would
disclose an affiliation to one company with a lot of candidates
(including partners) in this voting.

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Sam,


Am 07.12.19 um 12:29 schrieb Sam Tuke:
> Andreas: it'd be worth checking if Paolo is a member of this list first.
>
> Sam.


I'd expect a board candidate on this list. This is the list for the
communication from and with the board. It's the list where all decisions
were published (and sometimes done) and public discussions of the board
take place. It's necessary to follow this list, if you intend to run for
the board.

Kind regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael,

Am 07.12.19 um 11:58 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
>   I for one am grateful for all candidates that stand in the
> election. I expect each of them to act as individuals in the best
> interest of TDF and for all of them to have a shared primary
> affiliation to LibreOffice. I also think we should be encouraging
> those people that stand, and not trying to create tribal wedges.
>
>   At Collabora we encourage our staff to do what they think best
> in LibreOffice & TDF - and we have no say at all over what our
> partners do there; I thoroughly dislike your implication to the
> contrary. However, if people are worried by that (as apparently you
> are) they should have all the information they need to vote
> accordingly.
>
I'd not expect or assume something different. But there is § 8 IV of the
TDF statutes with clear rules.

Thus the affiliation is an important criterion and not any (positive)
subjective element (e.g. doing best in the interest of TDF).

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Paolo,

Am 07.12.19 um 15:07 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:
> Re: [board-discuss] Self-nomination for next Board
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> sorry for the delay in answering back but I've got notified I've been
> mentioned on the mailing list and that reminded me I didn't yet subscribe.
>
> I'd like to thank Sam and Michael which, while I was blissfully
> unaware of what was going on, vouched for my integrity with kind words.
>
>
> I'd like also to thank you, Andreas, for taking time to make sure no
> candidates may have conflict of interests which would be damaging to
> TDF reputation.
>
thanks!
>
>
> I can confirm that my companies have no contracts with companies for
> which a candidate is working.
>
Thank you for this clarification!
>
>
> I'm also happy to disclose that in the past I worked with quite a few
> of the candidates to further the TDF cause and facilitate the adoption
> of LibreOffice.
>
Good luck for further work in this direction.
>
>
> Now that I'm duly subscribed to the mailing list I'll be happy to
> respond to anybody that may have questions or doubts about the value I
> could bring to the BoD.
>
>
Welcome on this list ;-)

Kind regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Representation statement

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 20.02.20 um 14:47 schrieb Franklin Weng:
> I, Franklin Weng, elected member of the Board of Directors of The
> Document Foundation, hereby and until further notice, nominate the
> following deputies to represent me during board calls and meetings, in
> the order set forth below:
>
>  1. Nicolas Christener
>  2. Paolo Vecchi
>
if I remember correctly Nicolas is partner of Collabora. Thus there
might be three person with the same affiliation in the board call, if
he'll represent you. This wouldn't be in accordance with the statutes.

Kind regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Representation statement

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael,

Am 20.02.20 um 15:11 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> On 20/02/2020 13:57, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> Am 20.02.20 um 14:47 schrieb Franklin Weng:
>>> I, Franklin Weng, elected member of the Board of Directors of The
>>> Document Foundation, hereby and until further notice, nominate the
>>> following deputies to represent me during board calls and meetings, in
>>> the order set forth below:
>>>
>>>  1. Nicolas Christener
>>>  2. Paolo Vecchi
>> if I remember correctly Nicolas is partner of Collabora. Thus there
>> might be three person with the same affiliation in the board call, if
>> he'll represent you. This wouldn't be in accordance with the statutes.
>   As Franklin is also a partner, that seems rather moot.
it's your view on the statutes and the reasons for the rule about
affiliation. I don't share that.
>
>   Beyond that - I think, once again, your interpretation of affiliation
> is not one that stands up to scrutiny.
>
>   It is also somewhat offensive to insinuate that Collabora's partners
> are not free agents who can and do act in the best interests of the
> community they were elected to represent.
>
From the statutes, It really doesn't matter, what they are doing,
thinking etc. The rule about affiliation tries to prevent TDF from
_possible_ CoI and predominance.

I want to underline that I don't think the way you try to impute to me.
I learned a lot from your reply and its tone.

Kind regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Representation statement

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 20.02.20 um 15:56 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> it's your view on the statutes and the reasons for the rule about
>> affiliation. I don't share that.
>
> independent of the reading of the statutes - what Franklin sent is
> just the representation statement. That per se does not trigger this
> conflict of interest rule.
>
> Amongst a variety of other things, it depends on the actual meeting
> composition and the topics voted or discussed, so I propose to have
> that discussion when an actual representation takes place.
>
> If there are concerns on the wording of the statement, happy to talk
> on the phone with you anytime.
>
I already learned from this thread, that there are already three board
members with the same affiliation. The third one was disclosed in this
thread. There were no information about this affiliation in this
message:
https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/msg04346.html

or in a follow up on this list.

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-06-05

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 11.06.20 um 10:16 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> The Document Foundation
> Board of Directors Meeting 2020-06-05
> Meeting Minutes
>
> Date: 2020-06-05
> Location: Jitsi
>
> Session chair: Lothar Becker
> Keeper of the minutes: Stephan Ficht
>
> In the meeting: Cor Nouws (Board), Lothar Becker (Chair), Michael
> Meeks (Board), Thorsten Behrens (Board), Daniel Rodriguez (Board),
> Paolo Vecchi (Deputy), Nicolas Christener (Deputy), Stephan Ficht
> (Admin Assistant), Florian Effenberger (Executive Director), Uwe
> Altmann, Simon Phipps, Italo Vignoli, Pulkit Krishna, Dennis Roczek
>
> Representation: Nicolas for Franklin, Paolo for Emiliano

maybe a look into the statutes would be useful here:  § 8 IV.

(...)
>
>
>    4. have 5 community bonding / hackfest events before 2022
>    where coders & non-coders meet, ESC events.
>    4.1 have these in significant geographies
>    + hack-fests are hard to plan for the next year (Florian)
>   + wait until the end of the year - to see how things
>    are progressing - otherwise go virtual.
>    + now have a great opportunity to learn virtual events (Thorsten)
>   + can learn how to have virtual events, easier to setup
>     and run, with less cost involved.
>   + lets take the opportunity.
>   + second it (Lothar)
>    + hackfest around the conference ? (Lothar)
>   + Sophie mentioned mini-sumits.
>   + can we get talks down in time at conf ? (Michael/Florian)
>  + 30mins max - perhaps 20mins better ?
>    + French community had a translation sprint (Thorsten)
>   + Hackfest in Germany 2 months ago around Corona
> (#WirVersusVirus - Corona hackathon)
>   + good ideas to steal from elsewhere.
>   + meeting in person is super important; really miss it.
> AI:    + ask the staff if they have ideas for a virtual hackfest
> (Florian)
>   + eg. bug-hunting sessions ? (Thorsten)
>     + with Jitsi open all the time, play with it eg.
>     + really support it (Cor)
>    + had some 1st thinking in Dutch community some weeks ago

Seemed other OSS communities with smaller resources (e.g. donation
money) had already been successful doing remote sprint since weeks. The
Plone community e.g. did at least two remote sprints since April 2020.
Maybe you could ask a former service provider for the LibreOffice
extensions and templates website about their tooling.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 18.06.20 um 09:21 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Dear community,
>
> during the meeting at FOSDEM, the board agreed on several key goals to
> follow for the next two years. These key goals are now public in a
> Redmine project:
>
> https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/keygoals/
> (The ticket on the legal entity will be added and updated soon.)
>
> We will continuously update the tickets as the tasks progress, to keep
> the community informed.
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3118

ageism?

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Ilmari,

Am 20.06.20 um 12:32 schrieb Ilmari Lauhakangas:
> Andreas Mantke kirjoitti 20.6.2020 klo 13.20:
>> Am 18.06.20 um 09:21 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
>>> Dear community,
>>>
>>> during the meeting at FOSDEM, the board agreed on several key goals to
>>> follow for the next two years. These key goals are now public in a
>>> Redmine project:
>>>
>>>  https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/keygoals/
>>>  (The ticket on the legal entity will be added and updated soon.)
>>>
>>> We will continuously update the tickets as the tasks progress, to keep
>>> the community informed.
>> https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3118
>>
>> ageism?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andreas
>
> Not sure, if trolling? If you are interested in stopping the normal
> human aging process which leads to the gradual shrinking of our
> contributor community, I suggest you join the
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aging_movement

the community is not shrinking by the regular process of aging. The age
of a person is not the key of being a contributor, e.g. I started
contributing to an open source software project when I was 43 (not 42
and I'm active contributing since then.

If you are looking for active and long time contributors you had to
prescind  from the age of a person.

Regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Florian,

Am 22.06.20 um 08:29 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> the community is not shrinking by the regular process of aging. The age
>> of a person is not the key of being a contributor, e.g. I started
>
> nobody stated so. The ticket says to focus on new/younger
> contributors, not ignoring everyone else. We can't do everything at
> the same time, so we have to focus on certain things during a certain
> phase.
>
> I remember you were often pointing to the educational sector as one of
> our key purposes - doesn't that match nicely with the idea of that
> goal? :-)
>
if I didn't overlook anything, there are people of diverse age inside
the educational sector. Thus the focus on the educational sector would
be another focus. It would be a focus on an 'industry', not on the age
of people.

But if you target on e.g. the educational sector you need to identify
the different stake holder (and the way to get in contact with them and
convince them to get involved).

If you read to this document
https://shop.stiftungen.org/media/mconnect_uploadfiles/s/t/stiftungsfokus-2018-16-freiwilliges-engagement.pdf
(sorry: only German) you find on page 6 an information about getting
people involved into volunteer work.

And if I remember correctly the foundation association and its
co-working organizations published some documents (and strategies) to
involve new volunteers. You should use such resources and also various
opportunities (there) to get in contact with people from different sectors.

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi William,

Am 22.06.20 um 13:07 schrieb William Gathoye (LibreOffice):
> On 20/06/2020 13:15, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>
>> the community is not shrinking by the regular process of aging. The age
>> of a person is not the key of being a contributor, e.g. I started
>> contributing to an open source software project when I was 43 (not 42
>> and I'm active contributing since then.
> I think the purpose here is to drive the attention of younger
> contributors not fight/replace our elders. :) Some fresh air and
> perceptions from the next generation is great to have to unsure the
> success of the project for current and forthcoming generations of users.

could you please explain what is the next generation?

And why do you think that only younger people will bring 'fresh air and
perception' into the project?

I don't see such connection to the age of one.

>
> Being myself from the youngest in the community, I have plenty of ideas
> to fix this challenge and drive the attention of younger developers. :)
If I interpret the purpose of the Redmine ticket correctly it is not
targeted to developers. The LibreOffice project is not a developer
project only.
>
> Having followed the project since its very inception (sept 2010) and
> reading all mailing list messages, plus the fact I have been in charge
> of the LibreOfficeFR Twitter account for 2 years, I have built a modest
> list of drawbacks and expectations from the current gen of devs and
> those to be.
Again: the project is not all about developers. It is and has to be more
than that.
>
> That's why the idea of Redmine is great because, it will allow me to
> keep track of current blockers. Thanks for the initiative.

Developers are only one part of the project but their work wouldn't be
successful without e.g. documentation, user support etc.
LibreOffice is not something like a software running on servers (not
visible and used by end users) but an office software targeted to end
user (with a different set of skills) (I know some of them e.g. from my
daily paid work).

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Florian,

Am 23.06.20 um 11:16 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote:
>
>> But if you target on e.g. the educational sector you need to identify
>> the different stake holder (and the way to get in contact with them and
>> convince them to get involved).
>
> I'm quite familiar with the educational sector. :-) My mum is a
> retired teacher and I'm in very close contact with my former school.
> Me and others also jointly work with Munich Café Netzwerk where we've
> established a set of events for over a decade. So I'm quite aware of
> the stakeholders in that field.

reads good.

But what's the outcome of the close contact for the LibreOffice project
so far.

And what about schools in real big cities or areas with around more than
seven million people?

>
>> And if I remember correctly the foundation association and its
>> co-working organizations published some documents (and strategies) to
>> involve new volunteers. You should use such resources and also various
>> opportunities (there) to get in contact with people from different
>> sectors.
>
> We talk to them indeed. I remember that at the foundation's day 2018
> we presented our approach to volunteer work, they were quite
> interested in it.
>
And what projects and actions had already come out of this? Are there
already joint actions, joint projects etc. which drive LibreOffice and
the voluntary sector forward?

Such actions and projects needs someone who leads and drive them forward
(not only in spare time).

Regards,
Andreas




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PM Re: [board-discuss] TDF's key goals now in Redmine

[Andreas Mantke]

Hallo Florian,

wie Du weißt, stimmen dafür die Voraussetzungen nicht. Aus dem DE-Call bin ich 
nicht ohne Gründe ausgestiegen. Ich kann mich daran erinnern, dass das andere 
durchaus nachvollziehen konnten. Im Übrigen scheint die Zeit mir recht zu 
geben. Bedauerlich für das DE-Projekt.
Und dazu kam dann noch die Sache mit der Extensions-Seite. Gerade erst wieder 
die Rückmeldung in einer Mail erhalten, dass ich als billige Arbeitskraft gerne 
gesehen gewesen wäre zur Betreuung der bisherigen Seite.
Die neue Seite entspräche im Übrigen nicht meinen Qualitätsanforderungen und 
ich würde dafür wahrscheinlich "verprügelt" worden.

Und nun weiter Geld verdienen mit Sozialrecht  ;-)

Schönen Resttag
Andreas 

Am 24. Juni 2020 08:16:57 MESZ schrieb Florian Effenberger 
:
>Hi,
>
>Uwe Altmann wrote:
>> You're welcome to join the germanophone community video conference
>Thurday evening to advance this topic.
>> Really!:-)
>
>indeed!
>
>Andreas, can I put that on the agenda for the call? Mike Saunders will 
>give an update about our student ambassador's program during the call, 
>so having you present to share your ideas and activities would fit 
>perfectly.
>
>The pad for the call and the preliminary agenda is at 
>https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/de_discuss
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Florian
>
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Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 09.07.20 um 17:55 schrieb Bjoern Michaelsen:
> Hi Alex,
>
> I wanted to limit myself to those four tweets on this discussion, but this
> one really rattles my bones, so here we go:
>
> On Thu, Jul 09, 2020 at 04:30:51PM +0200, Alexander Werner wrote:
>> I want to remind all of you what The Document Foundation is all about,
>> as stated in the *unalterable* statutes
>> (https://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/):
>>
>> "The objective of  the foundation is the promotion and development of
>> office software available for use by anyone free of charge." - this does
>> not restrict the target audience.
>>
>> "This software will be openly available for free use by anyone for their
>> own files, including companies and public authorities, ensuring full
>> participation in a digital society and without detriment to intellectual
>> property."
>>
>> I would like to remind all members of the board of directors that first
>> and foremost you are obliged to pursue these statutes. As a consequence
>> you must not restrict the target audience of LibreOffice to a specific
>> user group in any way.
> While we go into full language lawyering here, The Document Foundation is a
> gemeinnuetzige Stiftung first and foremost. The "Gemeinnuetzig" in results in
> certain limits on what the goals of the Stiftung are and nothing in the 
> statues
> can overrule that.
>
and there are three reasons, why TDF is "Gemeinnützig":

  * der Volks- und Berufsbildung,
  * der Wissenschaft und Forschung, insbesondere auf dem Gebiet der
Informatik,
  * des bürgerschaftlichen Engagements zugunsten gemeinnütziger Zwecke.

(non binding English translation:

  * Public and professional education
  * Science and research, particularly in the field of computer science
  * Civic engagement for non-profit purposes)

There is nothing in this lines about the promotion of an ecosystem of
service providers (etc.).

Please be careful with the direction you are driving the foundation.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael,

Am 09.07.20 um 18:34 schrieb Michael Stahl:
> On 09.07.20 18:19, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> and there are three reasons, why TDF is "Gemeinnützig":
>>
>>    * der Volks- und Berufsbildung,
>>    * der Wissenschaft und Forschung, insbesondere auf dem Gebiet der
>>  Informatik,
>>    * des bürgerschaftlichen Engagements zugunsten gemeinnütziger Zwecke.
>>
>> (non binding English translation:
>>
>>    * Public and professional education
>>    * Science and research, particularly in the field of computer science
>>    * Civic engagement for non-profit purposes)
>>
>> There is nothing in this lines about the promotion of an ecosystem of
>> service providers (etc.).
>
> i don't believe anybody is claiming that promotion of an ecosystem of
> service providers should be a *goal* of TDF - what i understand is
> being claimed is that it can be a good *means*, a tool to eventually
> help reach the actual defined goals of TDF to a fuller extent,

please read through the whole discussion and you may get an impression
that there are some intent to use TDF for such a promotion.

Regards,
Andreas




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[board-discuss] 'Free Beer' Office?

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

for those who complains about LibreOffice campains stating free (like
free beer), here is a current example from the official LibreOffice account:

https://twitter.com/libreoffice/status/128692953570496/photo/1

Regards,
Andreas


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Job Description of the MC (was:Re: [board-discuss] self-nominations - election to next TDF's Membership Committee)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,s

maybe it'd good to have a closer  look into the job description of the 
Membership Committee (MC), which is publicly available on the TDF website: 
Paragraph 12 of the statutes.

Regards,
Andreas
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Re: Job Description of the MC (was:Re: [board-discuss] self-nominations - election to next TDF's Membership Committee)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

the statutes are here:
https://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/

Regards,
Andreas

Am 20.08.20 um 12:51 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Hi,s
>
> maybe it'd good to have a closer look into the job description of the
> Membership Committee (MC), which is publicly available on the TDF
> website: Paragraph 12 of the statutes.
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
> --
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[board-discuss] Questions To MC Candidates

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

I have two first questions to the candidates:

a) regarding the mission of the MC (§ 12 of the statutes) have you
already participated in board calls during the last two years as
external (non-member)?

b) What is your personal take on a 'cooling down' periode between being
a member of leading bodies of the foundation, regarding the first
sentence in the statutes § 12?

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Questions To MC Candidates

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe, all,

Am 29.08.20 um 06:39 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 28.08.20 um 08:18 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>
> (...)
>> b) What is your personal take on a 'cooling down' periode between being
>> a member of leading bodies of the foundation, regarding the first
>> sentence in the statutes § 12?
> This seems only of interest in case a member of the BoD wants to get a member 
> of the MC to prevent or influence a pending lawsuit against himself.
> It is surely desirable to have prevented such a possibility by our statues - 
> but nothing is perfect. And some kind of self-commitment will not prevent 
> such a case.
> On the other hand the time schedule of the board and mc elections is a bit 
> cumbersome for such an operation.
>
Maybe a look into the second sentence of § 12 is also of interest here.
The MC initiate and supervise the board elections.

a) Could lead to a conflict of interest?

b) Is not showing solidarity (if MC membership is canceled or
suspended), because more work on less shoulder?

Regards,
Andreas






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[board-discuss] Re: Short Résumé (was: Re: [board-discuss] Questions To MC Candidates)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi all,

a short résumé:

a) there are 13 candidates for the MC elections and only 8 are
able/willing to answer two short questions.
   
Many thanks to all of this eight candidates to take your time and give
your personal view!


b) TDF currently has 221 members and none of them asked any question to
the candidates!

That's something to think long and hard about. What does this mean to
the democratic culture of the foundation. It was created to get the
members / contributors a voice and a say.


Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Questions To MC Candidates

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 08.09.20 um 14:23 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi,
>
> Muhammet Kara wrote on 05/09/2020 15:55:
>> Hi Andreas & all,
>>
>> On 8/31/20 9:06 PM, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>>> Maybe a look into the second sentence of § 12 is also of interest here.
>>> The MC initiate and supervise the board elections.
>>>
>>> a) Could lead to a conflict of interest?
>> It is hard to say 'never' to such things with many aspects, but I can't
>> think of a general case right now. One needs to resign from the MC
>> before nominating for the BoD elections, and he/she is out of the MC
>> loop immediately. And it is no longer possible to have an effect on the
>> election process any more.
> Of course I've seen the process and the situation a few times during the
> many years that I served in the MC.
> Given the number op people involved in the MC, looking at the election
> process, multiple people supervising it, the way we discuss in openness,
> etc. the change that one MC member influences the elections is in my
> experience rather hypothetical.

maybe you didn't get the point. It's a heavy thread to the foundation
body MC, if  you create the impression that it is used to get a mandate
in a 'higher' / 'better' (more powerful or what ever you think)
foundation body.

And especially if you stay in one foundation body (during the elections)
as long as you get the mandate in the other foundation body (with safety
net).

Regards,
Andreas


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[board-discuss] Second Short Résumé

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

if I draw a resume on the discussion in the thread  'MCC questions' I
saw basically only contributions from members that are already core
people of the foundation administration bodies or stand / stood as
candidates for these bodies.

I already mentioned that TDF currently has more than 200 members, but
only a few of them (see above) contribute to the discussion(s). Thus TDF
has not an issue with the quantity of members, but with the involvement
of them in the discussion process / the democratic process. The first
question should be, how to activate members to get a more active role in
the decision making of TDF (that was one reason to create TDF as a
membership organization).

Another issues of TDF is the inbalance. Some think that everything is
about development and developers are key (and everything else is
'Gedöns'. And the next issue is that inside the developing area of
LibreOffice there is a domination from one company. There is no real
diverse eco system yet (and since years).

And this leads to the attempt to dominate TDF and to blame the statutes
if they get in the way here, something that damages TDF.

And for a broad discussion and participation the used language (in the
process) maybe a big issue for many members, because they are not native
English speaker.

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-11

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 15.09.20 um 14:24 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
>
> The Document Foundation
> Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-11
> Meeting Minutes
>
> Date: 2020-09-11
> Location: Jitsi
>
> Session chair: Franklin Weng
> Keeper of the minutes: Stephan Ficht
>
> In the meeting: Gabriele Ponzo (MC), Cor Nouws (Board), Paolo Vecchi
> (Deputy), Franklin Weng (Board), Florian Effenberger (ED), Thorsten
> Behrens (Board), Marina Latini, Nicolas Christener (Deputy), Michael
> Weghorn, Italo Vignoli (Team), Michael Meeks (Board), Stephan Ficht
> (Team), Kendy, Emiliano Vavassori (Board), Muhammet Kara (MC), Xisco
> Faulí (Team), Ahmad Haris (MC)
>
> Representation: Nicolas for Lothar, Paolo for Daniel

if there has nothing changed (because there is nothing new published
about partnership) this affiliation should be valid further:
https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/2019/msg00109.html

This gives three members/members representatives with affiliation
'Collabora Productivity' during this board call.

The statutes has a rule for the affiliation of each body (board and MC)
in § 8 IV to prevent CoI: only a third of the members with the same
affiliation: 7/3 --->  only 2 members.

Conclusion: only Paolo could do the representation.

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-11

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe,

Am 16.09.20 um 17:07 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 15.09.20 um 20:17 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> This gives three members/members representatives with affiliation
>> 'Collabora Productivity' during this board call.
> Nope.
> Following the cited message at 
> https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/2019/msg00109.html
>  , it looks to me Infinis beeing a partner, not an subsidiary of Collabora.
> Reading the German original text of § 8 (4) of our statutes [1], "afiliate" 
> has the clear meaning of "subsidiary", not "partner".
>
> As you wrote:
>> ...if there has nothing changed...
>
> [1] "...für dieselbe Firma, Organisation oder Einheit oder einer ihrer 
> Tochterorganisationen als Angestellte arbeiten."

I already knew the German binding text. But you are following only the
first interpretation method. But that is not the whole story ;-)

Regards,
Andreas


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TDF-Business-Entity (was: Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-25)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 29.09.20 um 14:59 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> The Document Foundation
> Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-25
> Meeting Minutes
>
(...)
>
>  c) form sub-group to work out and publish business entity proposals
>     URL: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3294
>     Status: Criteria list (Lothar) Draft proposal for Luxemburg entity
> (Paolo), next meeting orga(Thorsten)  -
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/NeBWm25cd2LHyoq
>     Thorsten, Michael, Nicolas, Paolo, Lothar: due to holidays a part
> of the subgroup did coordinate, Lothar will update his criteria
> list/problem statement with feedback, Paolo to follow-up with ministry
> for clarification of details
>     * had various meetings with ministries (Paolo)
>    * need to check possible limitations around the kind of entity,
>  follow-up meeting next week
>    * no serious objections - From Board or community (Paolo)
>    * quite some silence after initial discussion, not much is
> happening - From the Board or community (Paolo)
>    * waiting for input, vacation times, previous proposal was not
> liked (Thorsten)
>
it's not a really appropriate behavior of a German charity to create a
business entity in a  country, which is known as a legal tax shelter.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: TDF-Business-Entity (was: Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-09-25)

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 30.09.20 um 11:01 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> thank you for your feedback.
>
> Before moving to Luxembourg a couple of years ago I had the same feeling
> about it but, as written in my proposal, I discovered that few EU
> countries didn't like to have Luxembourg as a competitor in tax
> efficiency so they pushed for and obtained huge changes in local tax laws.
>
> As you may know since a few years countries like UK, Holland and Ireland
> offer much better opportunities for tax "efficiency".

that's an euphemistic description for a tax shelter!

And for such reason companies like e.g. IKEA moved their profit to such
country in the European Union.

And one remark: Holland is only a part of the Netherlands if I remember
correctly.

Regards,
Andreas


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Re: [board-discuss] Re: TDF-Business-Entity

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael, all,

Am 02.10.20 um 10:10 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> On 30/09/2020 09:40, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>>>  c) form sub-group to work out and publish business entity proposals
>>>     URL: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3294
>>>     Status: Criteria list (Lothar) Draft proposal for Luxemburg entity
>>> (Paolo), next meeting orga(Thorsten)  ->> 
>>> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/NeBWm25cd2LHyoq
> ...
>> it's not a really appropriate behavior of a German charity to create a
>> business entity in a country, which is known as a legal tax shelter.
>   I'm sure no-one would want us to search the world for a jurisdiction
> that is maximally burdensome to incorporate and run in =)

it's not about searching for the maximally burdensome, but a one that
are in accordance with the mindset of the foundation and its status as a
charity.

And if that is not in the requirements list, TDF will loose it's
reputation very quick.

> (..)
>   Andreas - if you want to get involved - I believe Florian is working on
> a German entity proposal as another option - hopefully we see that soon.
Sorry, but I got no positive feedback for work with regulations etc. in
the past. Thus I concentrate here only on my payed full time job.
> Personally I think there may be merit in a UK option still - if Simon is
> interested in engaging.
My 2 Euro cents: I wouldn't go for Great Brittan, if I want to do
business with the European Union or one of its members.
> (...)
>
>   Again - it would be lovely to help out by build a constructive,
> detailed alternative proposal if you can Andreas, and I imagine that
> would be welcome.
>
See above. I doesn't share your view here, sorry.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Board of Directors Meeting 2020-10-09

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 13.10.20 um 16:36 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> The Document Foundation
> Board of Directors Meeting 2020-10-09
> Meeting Minutes

> (...)

> 2. Discuss: on the Online situation, and possibly discussion about the
> MC offer to mediate (All, 20min)
>
>  + what would be the outcome? (Heiko)
>     + dropping Online from LibreOffice repository ?

if the future of the office software is in the cloud, the drop of
LibreOffice online is a damage to TDF and its assets (as a foundation).

(...)
>
>  + root of this is problem of competing w/ another brand (Michael)
>  + need to compete in a way that doesn't harm the LibreOffice
> brand
>  + that is important part of TDF's value

correct. And its always important that regularly a person couldn't wear
the hat of two competing organizations without a CoI !

(...)
>     + trying to say at the beginning (Marina)
>     + stop to discuss we against them
>     + companies vs. TDF is not helpful
>   
But it needs clarification of roles. See above.
>
> 3. Status & further steps in the subgroups in the light of discussions
> see above with: a) marketing plan d) TM licensing  (All 5min)
>    Rationale: Discuss and identify the next steps
>    Redmine ticket(s):
>
>  a) LibreOffice 7.0/7.1 marketing plan
>     URL: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3206
>     Status: Paolo, Franklin, Michael, Thorsten, Mike, Italo continue
> working on this, Follow-on meeting was done, information/what is
> uncontroversial and could be decided to be done now
>
Is there because of the role in competing organziations no CoI ?

(...)


Regards,
Andreas





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Re: [board-discuss] [DECISION] LibreOffice Online - repository and translations

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi all,

Am 02.12.20 um 12:23 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello,
>
>> 1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for
>> the time being
>>
>> 1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
>> instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure
>> we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side
>>
>> 2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
>> the time being
>>
>> The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various
>> community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.
>
> The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat
> holders without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to
> have 1/2 of the Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>
> A total of 7 Board of Directors members have participated in the vote.
>
> The vote is quorate.
>
> A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 4 votes.
>
> Result of vote: 3 approvals, 3 disapprovals, 1 abstain.
> One deputy approves, one deputy disapproves.
>
> As the vote is a tied vote, § 9 IV of the statutes come to effect. The
> Chairperson has the deciding vote, and voted +1 to the proposal.

as far as I know the statutes doesn't speak about a second vote of the
Chairperson here. The vote of the Chairperson is only deciding in such case.

Thus it counted only 3 approvals and not 4. The necessary approvals are
not reached and the request has not been accepted.


In addition: as far as I know two members of the board have a CoI on
this topic. But only one board member abstained from voting (correct
behavior). The second approved the proposal, instead of abstaining. This
could be seen as a violation of his duties as a member of the board or
his loyalty for TDF. Thus his vote had to been rejected (and not counted
in).

Conclusion: for both reasons the request has not approved, but rejected.

Regards,
Andreas





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Re: [board-discuss] TDF Budget 2021

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 18.03.21 um 13:19 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello,
> (...)
> Recurring: 828.615,15 €
>
>  Salaries and compensations 647.787,78 €
>  

seemed the board increases the expenses for staff etc. for round about
50 % within one year.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] TDF Budget 2021

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 20.03.21 um 16:39 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Hi,
>
> Am 18.03.21 um 13:19 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
>> Hello,
>> (...)
>> Recurring: 828.615,15 €
>>
>>  Salaries and compensations 647.787,78 €
>>  
> seemed the board increases the expenses for staff etc. for round about
> 50 % within one year.

and you could compare that with the planed budget for community
projects, which get no increase and stayed at 2 € (for the whole
world wide community).

If you look into the publicly available ledger on the TDF wiki, you'll
see an increase of the expenses for TDF staff from:

2015 - 276.084,38 €

to

2021 (planed) - 647.787,78 €

More than twice of the expenses after only 6 years.

There should be a notable boost in the outcome in several areas of TDF's
activities, which justify such an increase of the expenses, payed from
donation money.

Regards,
Andreas



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[board-discuss] TDF Advisory Board Members

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

I read about the change in the board of the FSF, a member of the TDF
Advisory Board:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-returns-to-the-free-software-foundation-board-of-directors/

There are a lot of contributors in the Free Software business, which are
seeing this change toxic for this business.

What's the position of TDF board on this topic? And how to proceed with
the Advisory Board membership?

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] TDF Advisory Board Members

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael, all,

Am 23.03.21 um 12:11 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> On 23/03/2021 10:07, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> What's the position of TDF board on this topic ?
>   As you know this sort of question is a very easy one to ask but as with
> anything where there are a wide diversity of opinions - tends to be an
> extraordinarily expensive one to answer in terms of board time.
>
and could be extraordinary expensive for TDF and it's ecosystem, if TDF
dodge an answer.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] TDF Advisory Board Members

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 23.03.21 um 19:11 schrieb Italo Vignoli:
> OSI statement: https://opensource.org/OSI_Response
>
great and consequent statement.

Regards,
Andreas



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Re: [board-discuss] TDF Budget 2021

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Dennis,

Am 24.03.21 um 16:50 schrieb Dennis Roczek:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Am 22.03.2021 um 15:24 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>>> seemed the board increases the expenses for staff etc. for round about
>>> 50 % within one year.
>>
>> and you could compare that with the planed budget for community
>> projects, which get no increase and stayed at 2 € (for the whole
>> world wide community).
> We are in a pandemic.
>
> The budget is based on the local communities which send out budget
> wishes.
>
> As most conferences and thus the booths are not taking place very
> likely in 2021 (or already canceled), many communities didn't send any
> or at least a very small budget wish. This is totally ok for the
> moment. Same goes for the travel expenses which is naturally not
> taking place at the moment.
>
> For example, the German community did only send a minimum wish. There
> are no meetings in 2021 at the Linux Hotel in Essen nor meetings in
> Hamburg or Berlin nor any real life conference (Rhein Ruhr, et all are
> all canceled, postponed or virtualized). You know the situation very
> well in German and Europe. How should the German community request
> money and especially for what?
>
and have a look into 2019, the last year without pandemic restrictions:

- community (project)  --  15.029,94 €  (plan was 30,000.00 €)

- staff  --  467.624,28 €

The budget for the community was also before the pandemic restrictions
very low.

And there is a further issue. There seemed to be a problem to even
execute on this small budget.

Thus TDF has to evaluate the reasons for this poor execution and make
improvements (especially for the time after the corona pandemic). If TDF
will dodge on this topic, there will be from my opinion no valid reason
to complain about a 'shortage' of volunteers in the LibreOffice project.

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Statement on Richard M. Stallman and Free Software Foundation

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

first thanks for the statement!

Am 25.03.21 um 14:56 schrieb Lothar K. Becker:
> Dear LibreOffice Community,
> Dear Open Source Community,
> (...)
> We are all perfectly aware of the consequences also for our project,
> given that the FSF is a member of our advisory board.
>
> We clearly expect a strong evidence that the FSF found a proper
> solution to the severe impact their actions have had on the global
> free software community. We will suspend FSF‘s membership in our
> advisory board and cease any other activity with this organization and
> their representatives, until the situation is healed.

if I understand this sentence correctly, the advisory board membership
has been suspended. If this is correct, the TDF website needs an alignment.


>
> Thanks for your support.
>
> Lothar Becker (TDF Board)
> Daniel Armando Rodriguez (TDF Board)
> Franklin Weng (TDF Board)
> Thorsten Behrens (TDF Board)
> Emiliano Vavassori (TDF Board)
> Paolo Vecchi (TDF Board)
>
> Marina Latini (TDF Membership Committee)
> Gabriele Ponzo (TDF Membership Committee)
> Ahmad Haris (TDF Membership Committee)
> Dennis Roczek (TDF Membership Committee)
> Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco (TDF Membership Committee)
> Shinji Enoki (TDF Membership Committee)
> Jona Azizaj (TDF Membership Committee)
>
> Florian Effenberger (TDF Team)
> Sophie Gautier (TDF Team)
> Olivier Hallot (TDF Team)
> Italo Vignoli (TDF Team)
> Xisco Fauli (TDF Team)
> Christian Lohmaier (TDF Team)
> Guilhem Moulin (TDF Team)
>
I'm missing some members of TDF bodies and the team here. Had they not
reached in time or are there different views on the topic in general or
only the wording?

Regards,
Andreas




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Re: [board-discuss] Statement on Richard M. Stallman and Free Software Foundation

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Cor, all,

Am 25.03.21 um 18:04 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 25/03/2021 16:06:
>
>> I'm missing some members of TDF bodies and the team here. Had they not
>> reached in time or are there different views on the topic in general or
>> only the wording?
> I would have preferred a different wording. However, thought I indicated
> that I would go with the majority vote. But apparently that was not
> understood as to put my name there. But compared to this and other
> serious things ongoing around us, that's no big deal for me.
>
thanks for your answer.

Keep well and fit,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Statement on Richard M. Stallman and Free Software Foundation

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Michael,

Am 25.03.21 um 17:37 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> On 25/03/2021 15:06, Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> I'm missing some members of TDF bodies and the team here.
>> Had they not reached in time or are there different views
>> on the topic in general or only the wording?
>   I think I mentioned the difficulty and expense in time of getting a
> consensus view quickly from a diverse set of people at the outset.

I try to envision all members of TDF's bodies and team would have
followed your approach here what would have been the result?

And to what perception of TDF's bodies/team from the community / the
outside would that lead?

And what would be the perception send to organizations reluctant to act
appropriate on such cases?

What about the perception of the people, involved in such cases (on both
'sides')?

>
>   I'd would say this is a pretty good showing, and while I personally had
> reservations about elements of this approach so didn't put my name to it
> - it's certainly not safe to conclude that others who are not present
> did not support it in part or total too.
>
The question didn't assume that the missing members of bodies and team
didn't support that TDF publish a statement on this and/or take action.


Stay healthy!

Best regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Statement on Richard M. Stallman and Free Software Foundation

[Andreas Mantke]

Am 26.03.21 um 12:24 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 26.03.21 um 11:03 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> And to what perception of TDF's bodies/team from the community / the
>> outside would that lead?
>
> I didn't sign either. Imho it was not appropriate because (besides I'm
> not a member of any of TDFs bodies) this is not a statement of single
> persons but a statement of the TDF as an own body. This has to be
> decided by (a majority of) the BoD only. So Lothars signature, based
> on a decision of the BoD would have been absolutely enough 

from the statutes this is correct.

But sometimes there are good reasons in special topics to express your
personal support for a message and an action.

This seemed to be the case here.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 26.05.21 um 14:47 schrieb Mike Saunders:
> Hello,
>
> Today we've published a tender to implement the new TDF Membership
> Committee’s web-based tooling:
>
> https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2021/05/26/tender-to-implement-the-new-tdf-membership-committees-web-based-tooling-202105-01/
>
it's always funny to have a quick look on such tenders. I'd expect that
the DMS/CMS Plone could deliver about 90 % of the expected functionality
within it's core code or within an add-on. The accessibility, stability
and security also shouldn't be an issue.
(https://plone.org/accessibility-info). And it's OSS software.

Don't always reinvent the wheel, instead build your tooling on already
available great and stable software with little effort and small amount
of donation money..

Have a nice evening,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe, *,

Am 26.05.21 um 20:42 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 26.05.21 um 20:23 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> I'd expect that the DMS/CMS Plone could deliver about 90 % of the
>> expected functionality within it's core code or within an add-on. The
>> accessibility, stability and security also shouldn't be an issue.
>> (https://plone.org/accessibility-info). And it's OSS software.
>
> So go on and feel free to make or arrange an offer covering /all/ the
> described use cases and further specified requirements. Python is
> labeled as preferred (because of [1]), not as required!
thus I'm not a freelancer and not owner of a company I'm not able to bid
on such a tender. I also not allowed to do such work within an
additional business.
>
> Concerning Plone as platform: I tend to prefer something with a
> slightly better bus factor [1] than our Plone experience has shown in
> the past. But also here: Insights welcome.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

Maybe it's most easy to complain on this. I offered hands-on workshops
with no interest from the TDF community in the past. The TDF admin team
got a training from a Plone core developer some time ago.

But there are other software with such Bus_factor in the project, but
nobody is complaining about that (or not loudly / in public).

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe, all,

Am 26.05.21 um 23:04 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 26.05.21 um 21:17 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>>> So go on and...arrange 
>    ^^!!!
>
> That's the point: Stop complaining but go on and nudge a company or a
> group of Plone developers to offer something and to give a credible
> answer how to ensure 5 years of reliable support on this. As a plone
> developer you'll surely know some.
> With python we'll have no problem to find someone if we need some
> changes in a few years.
>
your reply showed little up to no knowledge and interest in that
CMS/DMS. Why should I bother /nudge Plone developers and ask them to
spent time on a proposal? Your response shows a very hostile tone
towards the Plone  open source community.
(for your information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plone_(software)
--> first stable release Feb. 2003, last major release July 2019, last
security patch: 2021/05/18)
(and for the records: I'm not a Plone developer, but developed Plone
add-ons)

>
>> Maybe it's most easy to complain on this. I offered hands-on workshops
>> with no interest from the TDF community in the past. The TDF admin team
>> got a training from a Plone core developer some time ago.
>
> ...what doesn't change anything on the basic problem. We (in contrast
> to your opinion) did not first set up plone (or something else) and
> then look for people who perhaps maybe want to learn it (which - if we
> had found some - would have been at least the second 

Maybe you have not been part of the crew that worked on the first steps
of the project and it's infrastructure. If individuals or small groups
wouldn't have set up a website based on Silverstripe (without asking for
permissions or without a poll) or a Template and Extension website based
on Plone, maybe the project would discuss have  discussed about this
tooling for month without any visible action. One core principle of the
project is that the doers decide the way and you'll find this form of
action at many places in the project.
This principle will fail (for a volunteer project) once the people that
want to tell the doers what and how they had to work, becomes the
majority or the bosses.

> best solution. But we didn't find them).  We have to cut the coat
> according to our cloth. (btw.: Similar as the android app. Sad - but
> there seems no one out there interested to develop under TDFs umbrella)
Great picture with cutting the coat according to the cloth: it reminds
me on 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.
>
>> But there are other software with such Bus_factor in the project, but
>> nobody is complaining about that (or not loudly / in public).
>
> And what does this contribute to the discussion on the MC tooling?
> Please stay focused.

Sorry Uwe but for years I was bantered by a core member of this project
for one mistake which I made in 2012. I never heard something else about
other software and volunteers in this project.
I did my work for TDF and LibreOffice only on volunteer state without
getting any payment or asking for such payment for years.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Re: Access To Membership Data (was: Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe, all,

Am 28.05.21 um 23:32 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> (...)
> All right for the mentioned "core business" - or in other words: the goals of 
> the foundation following our statutes. That's how a community works we 
> believe. Besides: LO in no way is or ever was "volunteer project" (a 
project has a start and an end). It's a community with a high extent of 
volunteer engagement. 
> But this is in no way right if it comes to administrative decisions. To 
stay in the above example: It sounds rather silly to start a community wide 
discussion on which software we will use to do our bookkeeping. And in 
our case, the MC is "the doers". The tooling we use until today emerged exactly 
the way you described above: Someone set up something which was far way better 
than nothing. But it has some severe immanent drawbacks. And 
we understood that we don't have the skills to set up a solution by our own 
which satisfies our needs.
>
could you please explain who have and who should have access to the
membership data (old tooling and new tooling) please?

Has they / should the have access to all membership data from the start
of TDF up to now?

I found nothing about this in the detailed specifications for the tender.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe,

Am 28.05.21 um 23:32 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> (...)
> So we look for a company to outsource a special problem solution, described 
> in the specification document. And  we are willing to pay those ecosystem 
> companies for services we feel in need of but which we don't see as 
our core business (we strongly prefer companies engaged in open source 
community). i.e. a company which does the necessary plone adjustments. But we 
surely not would ask the plone community or a certain developer to do so on a 
voluntary base (c.f. "credo" above).

which leads me (after looking over the specifications in more detail) to
the question: what about the payment for drawing the specifications
paper? Is this done on a voluntary base like other public available
documents / tender specifications in the project?

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello,

Am 26.05.21 um 14:47 schrieb Mike Saunders:
> Hello,
>
> Today we've published a tender to implement the new TDF Membership
> Committee’s web-based tooling:
>
> https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2021/05/26/tender-to-implement-the-new-tdf-membership-committees-web-based-tooling-202105-01/
>
interesting to read in the specifications document about a self hosted
Captcha but without pointing to an example for such solution. If such a
solution (especially published within an OSS license) already exists,
why is it not already used within the current application form?:
https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/members/application/

I'm curious about a working self hosted Captcha provider.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 30.05.21 um 12:11 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi
> Am 29.05.21 um 18:31 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> Interesting to read in the specifications document about a self hosted
>> Captcha but without pointing to an example for such solution.
>
> You embezzled the "i.e." just before that. It was meant to illustrate
> the idea, not to describe or define a specific intended solution.
>
>> I'm curious about a working self hosted Captcha provider.
>
> Me too :-)

would be great, if someone could shed some light on this. Is there
already a captcha provider available which could be self hosted. I
searched for such option, but with no result.

If there are nothing available yet, it is necessary to look for a
working solution / a captcha provider, which should be included into the
forms (in accordance with the GDPR).

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Access To Membership Data

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Uwe, all,

Am 30.05.21 um 12:04 schrieb Uwe Altmann:
> Hi Andreas
>
> Am 29.05.21 um 08:49 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
>> could you please explain who have and who should have access to the
>> membership data (old tooling and new tooling) please...I found nothing
>> about this in the detailed specifications for the tender.
>
> First of all: This tender is based on a software specification and not
> on a description of the working processes of the MC.  The latter are
> just subject as far as it seems necessary to describe the needed
> software functionality.
>
> And this list thread should hold on that tender. Feel free to open
> another thread for anything else.
I already opened a new thread. I changed the subject of this thread (in
accordance to the usual way I know for mailing lists).
>
> You did nothing find on data access in the specs because you obviously
> read only some few pages. In short: Regulating data access is not a
> function of the tendered software but in fact a function of granting
> access to it by our SSO solution. You find that described at page 14
> of the specs - including the information who is intended to be able to
> access the software and thereby the data.

OK, got it now.

Have you already compared the details of meetings and decision making
for the board and the MC in the statutes. There are differences which
need to be considered for the access and the processing of the personal
data (of members and applicants).

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Florian,

Am 31.05.21 um 11:35 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 30.05.21 at 20:12:
>
>> would be great, if someone could shed some light on this. Is there
>> already a captcha provider available which could be self hosted. I
>> searched for such option, but with no result.
>
> we looked at some in the past (don't remember their names from the top
> of my head), but the results were only mediocre. What helped us years
> ago in the wiki was to ask concrete questions eg. about TDF (Where are
> we located etc.), because these cannot be automated so easily, but
> still, you need to rotate these frequently... indeed, time for a
> proper solution to this. :)
>
I'm currently evaluate a solution for Plone with a 'honeypot' and work
on a new add-on for a switch to a GDPR compatible captcha online provider.

But I don't know yet, how long it take me to finish both options,
because my spare time currently is occupied mostly by other tasks.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello Florian, all,

Am 01.06.21 um 10:31 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 31.05.21 at 18:29:
>
>> I'm currently evaluate a solution for Plone with a 'honeypot' and work
>> on a new add-on for a switch to a GDPR compatible captcha online
>> provider.
>
> thanks for sharing! Let us know how it's going - we'll also share our
> findings (probably on the website list), as I guess several projects
> have similar issues.
>
I created a new Plone add-on to use HCaptcha instead of ReCaptcha some
weeks ago and migrated the forms of a Plone add-on to HCaptcha
currently. I'll work on further Plone add-ons and  migrate the forms to
HCaptcha. I think about making it optional to use HCaptcha and rely on
the 'honeypot' add-on technology instead.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello Florian, all,

Am 26.07.21 um 09:16 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 23.07.21 at 17:49:
>
>>> thanks for sharing! Let us know how it's going - we'll also share our
>>> findings (probably on the website list), as I guess several projects
>>> have similar issues.
>>>
>> I created a new Plone add-on to use HCaptcha instead of ReCaptcha some
>> weeks ago and migrated the forms of a Plone add-on to HCaptcha
>> currently. I'll work on further Plone add-ons and  migrate the forms to
>> HCaptcha. I think about making it optional to use HCaptcha and rely on
>> the 'honeypot' add-on technology instead.
>
> thanks for the follow-up!
> What's your experience with this captcha, is there a difference
> between the spam before and after? Back in the days, all alternative
> captchas were much less effective, I'm curious to learn how the
> situation is noawadays.

I'm currently not running or managing any server / PC outside my home
environment. I have a payed full time outside the software industrie and
work on software only as volunteer in my spare time.

Thus I could not provide you any experience about the effectiveness of
the different captcha services (providers). I created the new hcaptcha
add-on only on a request / discussion inside the community.

>
> (Maybe let's follow-up with this discussion on website@)
>
If I remember correctly there is an open ticket in the LibreOffice
community on this topic without real work on it for about four years
yet. Has there been any research on this topic (without documentation)
on that topic inside the LibreOffice community already?

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Tender to implement the new TDF Membership Committee’s web-based tooling

[Andreas Mantke]

Hello Florian, all,

Am 28.07.21 um 10:29 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hello Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 26.07.21 at 19:51:
>
>> Thus I could not provide you any experience about the effectiveness of
>> the different captcha services (providers). I created the new hcaptcha
>> add-on only on a request / discussion inside the community.
>
> to answer your question, the above is indeed the problem we were
> facing - other Captcha services were working, but much less reliable,
> i.e. they were much less suited to prevent spamming. Even with
> blocking certain "spammy" IP ranges, the amount of spam was too high,
> and the feedback from other communities back then was very similar.
>
> However, let's continue this technical discussion on the website@ list
> instead, where also others could provide valuable feedback.
>
if you like you could start a new discussion on that list.

I worked on a further version of one Plone add-on with protection by a
honeypot field instead of a captcha. I used a special add-on for this,
which was published by some members of the Plone community. This
technology has the advantage that it doesn't bother the website user in
the way a captcha does.

Regards,
Andreas

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[board-discuss] Re: Agenda for TDF board meeting on Friday, August 27th at 1300 Berlin time (UTC+2)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

seemed the board needs a discussion and decission about § 8 IV of the
statutes:

https://blog.allotropia.de/2021/08/25/allotropia-and-collabora-announce-partnership/

Regards,
Andreas

Am 23.08.21 um 13:35 schrieb Stephan Ficht:
> Dear Community,
>
> please find below the agenda for our
>
> -> TDF board meeting with a public part and followed by a private part
> -> on Friday, August 27th at 1300 Berlin time
>
> For time zone conversion, see e.g.
>  
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20210827T13&p1=37&p2=136&p3=241&p4=589
>
> -> at https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/TDFBoard
> We meet on jitsi, and please, if possible use Chrome browser and do not
> use video and until not speaking up please mute.
>
>
> -> AGENDA:
>
> Public Part
>
> 1. Q&A: Answering Questions from the community (All, max. 10 min)
>Rationale: Provide an opportunity for the community to ask questions
> to the board and about TDF.
>
> 2. Inform: 1 month to LibOCon 2021 - Status (Florian/Team, all 5min)
>Rationale: Get information about status and where help from board is
> needed
>
> 3. Plan: How to handle next pre-scheduled board meeting at 10th of
> September(Lothar, all 5 min)
>Rationale: Lothar will be not available from 1st to 16th of September
> (incl)
>
>
>  Private Part
>
> 4. Inform: Status 2nd round legal advisor questions (Florian, Lothar all
> 5min)
>Rationale: Florian delivered statements, what/when is next?
>Reason why in private: Confidential items for advice, preliminary
> discussion of offerings
>
> 5. Discussion, Q&A: Conflict of Interest Policy for MC and Board
> (Marina, all 25 minutes)
>Rationale: Board information about MC CoI policy text, status of
> legal proofread, adaption to the board
>Reason why in private: Discussion about a legal text
>
>  - No more topic in private so far -
>
>

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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Agenda for TDF board meeting on Friday, August 27th at 1300 Berlin time (UTC+2)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

the blog post shows the shrinking diversity of the TDF-board and the LibO 
ecosystem.

It shows also, that the spirit behind Par. 8 IV of the statutes dissolved 
during the last 9/10 years.

And it shows further that a critical view about the impact of such actions  on 
TDF and its reputation is not available inside all long term board members.

Regards,
Andreas   

Am 26. August 2021 23:35:23 MESZ schrieb Thorsten Behrens 
:
>Hi Andreas,
>
>Andreas Mantke wrote:
>> seemed the board needs a discussion and decission about § 8 IV of the
>> statutes:
>> 
>I can assure you (and the board), that § 8 (4) is most definitely not
>touched by that announcement.
>
>Please do reach out if there's any further questions (I'll probably
>not be able to make the call tomorrow though).
>
>All the best,
>
>-- Thorsten

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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Agenda for TDF board meeting on Friday, August 27th at 1300 Berlin time (UTC+2)

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 30.08.21 um 11:50 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> please, this is not very constructive so far. I tell you §8 is not
> affected, you claim it is (and conclude a number of things from there).
>
> At the same time, MC and board are working on a CoI policy, so this:

§ 8 IV and CoI are not identical.

But it's relatively clear that we have a dissent on the understanding of
§ 8 IV of the statutes.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Draft text: an "attic" proposal

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi,

Am 07.01.22 um 18:11 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> (...)
> I'd like to mention that one of TDF's main goal is to foster a
> sustainable developers community. (...)

I'd recommend to read through paragraph 2 of the statutes. The goals of
TDF are written down there.

I'd recommend all members of the board to follow this goals very closely
and take care of TDF's assets and pay attention that they are not
diluted or (partially) damaged.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Draft text: an "attic" proposal

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Paolo

Am 08.01.22 um 12:00 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:

Hi Andreas,

On 07/01/2022 20:28, Andreas Mantke wrote:

I'd recommend to read through paragraph 2 of the statutes. The goals of
TDF are written down there.

I'd recommend all members of the board to follow this goals very closely
and take care of TDF's assets and pay attention that they are not
diluted or (partially) damaged.

I'm sure all members of the board know quite well the articles of
TDF's statutes.

I'd be happy if so.


The issue I see is that, in absence of expressed clear preferences
from the board of trustees, some members of the board may apply their
own interpretation of some selected articles.

I know this from my involvement during some years.


It would be very helpful, and I would be very grateful, if apart from
reminding us or Article 2 (maybe we could also add 8.4 and the new CoI
Policy) you could also help the board of directors taking decisions by
telling us what your preferences are.

Yes, and there are the reasons stated why TDF has it's current financial
state, something to take care of (on a variety of grounds).


In this specific matter what would you prefer that TDF does for your
community?

- Would you like to have LOOL's repository to be re-opened so that you
and others can contribute to it?
- Would you like to forget about it and focus more on other areas?
- Other choices?


I'm not a software engineer by education thus I don't think that I'd be
able to contribute to LOOL.

But in my opinion the fork of LOOL from a member of the board was not
taken in the best interest of TDF/LibreOffice future.



I, as member of this community and member of the board, have already
expressed my opinion but when it comes to voting I will (from the
18/02/2020) represent only 1 vote.

I know this situation, one of the reasons I didn't run for the board
again some years ago.


It's up to you and the rest of the community to send a clear message
so that the members of the board will listen and vote for a proposal
that matters to all of you.


I'm for some reasons currently not a member of TDF's bodies anymore. I'm
not involved in any tasks here anymore. I use my available spare time
for volunteer work in other environments yet.

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [board-discuss] Draft text: an "attic" proposal

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Paolo,

Am 08.01.22 um 13:33 schrieb Paolo Vecchi:

Hi Andreas,

On 08/01/2022 12:44, Andreas Mantke wrote:

(...)

I'm for some reasons currently not a member of TDF's bodies anymore. I'm
not involved in any tasks here anymore. I use my available spare time
for volunteer work in other environments yet.


As you are investing your time to send us your opinion may as well be
a member so that you could participate by expressing your vote and
improve things if you don't like what you see.

I worked over 16 years for TDF/LibreOffice and its ancestor. I did a lot
of work in different areas of the OSS project during my spare time. But
if you do unpaid volunteer work you need some honest appreciation for
that. And I missed that, at least during the last period working for the
project. Thus I decided to make the necessary cut.


True that we all have limited amount of time to dedicate to the many
projects that we would like to support, I have chosen to dedicate my
time to TDF and the LibreOffice community as I believe, among other
reasons, it's one of the projects that needs to be strong and present
to reduce the dependence most have on monopolistic platforms.

But if I look at the situation around LOOL/COOL I got the impression
that it moves into a dominant market position of one player. Thus an
organization/corporation etc. will investigate if there are enough pros
to change over from one vendor (with lock in) to another vendor (with
also a dominant market position).


We are getting there but we need everyone's help including you.


Currently my spare time is completely used. I committed myself to a new
volunteer mission. And it is exiting to drive things forward in that
area. (my day has only 24 hours too ;-))

Regards,
Andreas

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