Jon Louis Mann wrote:
I don't understand turning the Alliance for Progress
Encyclopedia into a wiki format or what's a Brin Wiki
but I am all for doing anything to block trolls from
removing any of Dr. Brin's contributions to the SF lexicon
Jon--
Hi. I guess the conversation got a bit
My friends I hate to write this. Been putting it
off for a while.
My younger sister, Lesley, the youngest of the four of us,
mother of my
five-year-old niece, Sarah, could not fight off the sepsis
that attacked her
body. Lesley died this morning.
I have never hurt so much.
Nick
Subject: The thread about the thread
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
David wrote:
Hi. There I was, doing my bit to produce list.
traffic Sorry...
No apologies needed. I just remember person
after person taking on JDG trying to talk
about different stuff (abortion, death
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
It is interesting that what some people find rude
does not seem rude to others. I suspect that a
neutral observer would look at my posts during
the last few weeks and judge that they are not at
all rude. I have been asking some uncomfortable
Politicians were clueless as usual.
Here are some quotes about Fannie
and Freddie by clueless politicians
and regulators.
FF had very little impact as far as causing the economic crisis, compared to
other factors.
___
How Government Stoked the Mania Housing
prices would never have risen so high without
multiple Washington mistakes.
by Russell Roberts
just another three card monte guy with a libertarian agenda trying to blame the
collapse on fannie and freddie. this may have started with the reagan
no one seems to know how he
found out about this list,,,
I have a very strong suspicion that he
(John) has read and enjoyed at least
one David Brin novel, and that he found
the list using google or another search
engine, and that he will be more than
willing to confirm this
FF had very little impact as far as causing the
economic crisis, compared to other factors.
What are the other factors? It looked to me from that
article that Rob linked to that there was a fair amount of
cause wrapped up in F F.
Julia
i am not denying that there were
Exactly how does what work? Government
regulation? Not very well.
really, how so? cite examples please and explain how well de-regulation
works...
___
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it didn't matter that much what government policies were,
eventually we were going to come to this bubble burst one
way or the other.
Why this death spiral was not being discussed years ago is
beyond me. Perhaps it is similar to an economic singularity.
No one could see what was on the
in a community, there is behaviour that is simply
unacceptable. Ad hominem, falsehoods and abuse
(particularly unprovoked) are among those. It is
hard to accept trolling. It is best to start by
explaining where the offender is outside the range
of acceptable behaviour or agreed code of
the bush administration is largely responsible
for the current economic meltdown.
Things that happened under the Bush administration
may have served the function of the straw that broke
the camel's back...
No Shortage Of Blame To Go Around Maru
. . . ronn! :)
more like hay bales that
i highly doubt he has anything to back up his massive
certainty that
he is always right and everyone else is wrong.
WADR such certainty is hardly exclusive to him (or even to
members of this or similar lists ;)) . . .
Those Who Think They Know Everything Are Annoying To Those
Of Us Who Do
being called a loser on an internet list...
not really have any emotional reaction...
Dan M.
i do, but then i consider the source...
___
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any theories why this person has such a mean streak.
I don't think that's my business. He is what he is.
I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they
are, rather than as I think they should be.
Nick
as i said, you're a better man than i am. i can accept honest
I find mysel beginning to ignore messages not only from
trolls but from those who constantly vent their anger
at the trolls.
If your'e concerned about community, consider the effect
of everyone else on the list of having our inboxes flooded
with these arguments.
good point; you have
Don't let the facts get in the
way of a good piece of fiction!
what facts? after all this back and forth are you still in denial thbush
administration was largely responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis?
___
I'm done with this conversation since
you ducked my question about what
should replace government regulation.
our resident troll does that a lot. i
suspect he is an ayn rand, libertarian
wannabe, or he just likes to agitate.
one would think that the current
collapse would wake
what facts? after all this back and forth are you
still in denial the bush administration was largely
responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis?
That seems like a reasonable denial to me. It goes back
to the early 1980s. But that doesn't excuse the failure
to act, which is
Actually, bad government regulation contributed to all of
those, Dems and Reps both. And no one has consistently
predicted such things. You can't preempt what you can't
predict.
WHAT bad government regulations?
Did you make any posts predicting the housing crisis
before, say, 2004? Did
what facts? after all this back and forth are you
still in denial the bush administration was largely
responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis?
LOL
so you admit you don't have any facts, AND that the bush administration played
a role in the subprime mortgage crisis...
are you saying no one predicted this was coming?
No, that is not what I wrote.
ah, so you ARE saying it was predicted!
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i still don't understand how regulation is to blame; i would sure like
to hear some examples from someone...
I know you were on this list before September 23. Maybe you weren't
interested in examples then? If you are now, then check the archive:
Did you make any posts predicting the
housing crisis before, say, 2004?
I did. Unfortunately, I can't find the post
where I predicted it. But I always predict
disasters, so it's not surprising that
sometimes I'm right.
Cassandra Monteiro
Cassandra's beauty caused Apollo to grant her
You want a pissing contest, do you?
Hardly. That's not an accurate description
of my invitation.
Nick
in other words, he knows he would
lose if he accepted your challenge.
so, any good stock tips?
jon
___
I know a little bit about forecasting...
I co-founded and ran a successful
market research firm and I have patents
for methods of forecasting markets. Do
you have any credentials or examples to
cite that would support your notion that
we should only listen to people who are
right all
so you admit you don't have any facts, AND that
the bush administration played a role in the subprime
mortgage crisis...
Surely you can give a single example to
support your claim that Bush deregulation
was responsible for the subprime mortgage
crisis.
tch, tch, there you go again,
the reason you did not post is one of these:
1) You were not certain enough of your prediction
to risk that other people might act on it.
2) You did not care enough to help others with
your insight. Or perhaps none of the above.
you ain't no nice guy, john williams.
I know, you wanted to compete on credentials
rather than putting
your money where your mouth (or other parts of your
anatomy) is. I
realize it is much easier to put other people's money
on the line with
one's predictions than one's own. I don't blame
you for not risking
your own money on
i just came across this in my spam folder, claes...
socialism is not without flaws. there is
dissension among socialists, and most
would condemn my preference for a mixed
economy. i recognize the importance of
individual incentives, and not against all
private enterprise by any
It is such cynical and sarcastic statements that
makes you appear to run Asshole as a native app.
Not trying to be insulting, just an observation on
why you catch so much flak. Your remarks were
uncalled for, and if you are trying to draw my
ire..try harder.
any theories why this
i told you, i'm not playing this game any more,
No game to play, just a simple question to
answer. The statement that Bush's deregulation
was responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis
is apparently unsupportable, since you have been
unable to supply a single example of deregulation,
Okay. So we can agree that there are no examples of
Bush's deregulation that were responsible for the
subprime mortgage crisis.
Nope...
The only thing we agree on is that Bush was responsible for incredibly out of
control deficit spending for a war that killed thousands of Americans and
it just might work, but i still
prefer european style socialism.
But not everyone agrees with you in that preference.
. . . ronn! :)
a, rnd rightly so, ronn, socialism is not without flaws. there is dissension
among socialists, and most would condemn my preference for a mixed economy. i
Ding! Ding!! Ding!!!
(Or should that be ka-CHING!!)
. . . ronn! :)
so you are saying that it makes no difference where the money comes from, or
whether one side bases its positions on ethical parameters, and the other on
morally righteous positions?
yes political winds shift, but the
tell you what, john, i will be delighted
to engage in civilized discourse with you.
Is that the carrot or the stick?
i will stop discussing your personality disorders
(unless you enjoy being the topic of discussion). i'll
even stop asking you who you really are, what your
tax
bush deserves most of the blame for the
massive deregulation after his re-election.
What deregulation would that be?
take your pick, williams, or google the names that were in my post (i explained
the correlation between money and idealogy, ethics and morality). you
consciously ignore
What deregulation would that be?
take your pick, williams,
SInce there was little relevant
deregulation initiated by Bush, I'm
not surprised you cannot name any.
There you go again, making stuff up.
You tell me, then, what are the causes of the current financial crisis if not
Let the free market decide the most efficient way of
destroying money!
Why am I not surprised that you would cite the Onion...?
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_should_the_government
I almost spewed out my bheer today, watching Bush's speech to the U.N.
Jon
What did I make up? I asked you for
an example of Bush deregulation that
you said caused the sub prime crisis. You
appear unable to provide a single example.
there you go again, still making stuff up. i gave you two links, here is
another that you won't even have to read:
Why am I not surprised that you would cite the Onion...?
I don't know. Perhaps because you think that I have a
good sense of humor?
i don't think so, it was a substitute for answering my questions, and you use
humor for insolence and to avoid the issue.
See, when the government spends
deregulation
n : the act of freeing from regulation
(especially from governmental regulations)
i have asked you numerous questions, which you refuse to answer, williams, so
don't accuse me of what you can not do yourself.
the bush administration is responsible for this economic crisis.
Which minions, and what deregulation are you referring to?
i told you, i'm not playing this game any more, until you answer my questions.
you ask questions to bait and to antagonize. any answer i give only lead to
another question. we are all quite familiar with your tactics to avoid,
Or just maybe this study is right:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/science/04tierney.html?_r=1emoref=slogin
in part...
No, as you just said, they are to pay for the
government to provide services to the citizens.
yes, and redistribution and socialism are ways to do that.
And as some
Here's an idea. Why don't you and Jon
discuss my character and many
faults, since it seems to entertain you
both. Also, feel free to
comment on whether this is reverse
psychology, or reverse-reverse-psychology.
Proof is left as exercise for the reader.
i am not a shrink, but do you
if i was a paranoid conspiracy theorist i would think
this collapse was planned... jon
Planned by whom? The Saudi Princes that
control Bush in order to put
a muslim in charge of USA's nukes? :-)
Alberto Monteiro
PS: is it heresy to take His conspiracy theory and turn it
upside down?
not
can't take longer than starting several threads a day about me.
tell you what, john, i will be delighted to engage in civilized discourse with
you. if you agree to stop insulting people and curtail your sarcastic,
denigrating, condescending personal attacks, i will stop discussing your
I'm hoping to engage in civilized
discourse with no strings attached.
I keep hoping I can be that way no
matter how other people may behave.
Nick
you're a better man than i am, gunga din. i'm unable to resist giving williams
a taste of his own medicine. if i was a saint i would try
you're a better man than i am, gunga din.
Not necessarily... having a goal isn't the
same as reaching it.
Nick
well, if nothing else, you've inspired me to try, as well!~)
jonj
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One thing many of those who scream
the loudest against recent events
seem to forget is that we were all
once united on the same front. On
12 September 2001. But some of us
-- possibly a decent majority now --
saw ourselves betrayed, saw our nation
betrayed, saw our ideals laid
Anybody here a Second Life participant? I'm talking to
them about perhaps
joining the company... but I'm barely familiar with it
as a user. Any
suggestions about things to try, etc. I'm most
interested in metrics and
such, things that are or could be measured, which has to do
mostly
Ah. But this language itself is so emotionally loaded that
it does
nothing but contribute to the polarization. (Sure,
everyone's pissed,
but the left is pissed for more moral reasons!) The
sad truth is that
the left isn't all that different from the right, not
as long as big
money
I agree, Warren. The left should talk to the
moderate Republicans and
old-style (pro-business/small-government) Republicans and
ignore
everyone else until they are willing to sit down and have a
real conversation.
If we give an eye-for-an-eye against the neoconservatives
and radical
Given that that's pretty much all you do, I
wasn't wondering. That is
the reason I stopped reading your posts directly,
'cause you spend
your entire time
I bow down to the all-knowing Charlie, who knows
pretty much all I
do and how I spend my entire time,
without directly reading my
Given that that's pretty much all you do, I wasn't
wondering. That is
the reason I stopped reading your posts directly,
'cause you spend
your entire time portraying everyone who doesn't agree
with you as
people who want to take your money to spend it for you,
rather than
actually
All right Jon. I'll mend my evil ways. Let's
discuss the Higg's paper. Do you agree with
everything he writes? If not, what specific
areas do you disagree with?
times are different, john, although the current crisis is also largely due to
unrestrained and unregulated greed. i may have
I have to ask .. is anyone really learning anything or gaining
anything from continuing this conversation at this point, other than
focusing attention on someone who clearly is thriving on it?
I don't see the point of it.
If there is one Maru
I agree with William.
Julia
you're all
There would be less government
waste for certain, but I suspect there would
would be a commensurate increase in private
sector waste.
No doubt that is true, if we define waste as
not doing with other people's money what Wayne
wants. But if we talk about what each person
thinks
you're both right. i guess enquiring minds
should review the story of the cat...
jm
I wasn't thinking so much of the cat, but the horse.
Julia
The dead horse, not the gift horse, right?~)
Jon
I can always tell which is the front end of a horse... ~Mark Twain
The only reason the government makes bad decisions
is because it is made up of people.
The private sector is made up of people too.
The private sector is made up of MORE people,
and more involved people, both of which
tend to result in better decisions.
So to get governments to
The difference can often be one between a realtor who is
genuinely
motivated to act as his/her buyer's agent and negotiate
aggressively
for a good deal for the buyer, and one who is motivated
more by a
desire to get the commission from the sale and inclined to
push the
buyer into
Let me jump in here. You know I've been arguing
against John a good deal on
this subject, but let me now look at things from another
perspective, since
I think that the sub-prime mess is not just about
deregulationthat other
fundamental problems are involved.
I'm not sure when you
I am beginning to see a pattern of how you make gross
simplications to
try to make the situation fit into your pigeonhole of how
the
government can save us by making simple and effective
regulations to
control the simple financial systems.
Unfortunately, the reality is that there have been
Actually, I don't know what you mean,
which is why I asked. If you don't like
the terms of the loan, then why borrow
the money?
Because your wife said If I have to spend
another month in this {deleted] apartment
instead of a real house, I'm going to take
to take the kids and leave you?
I'd like to make a few comments on the state of the
discourse on the
list. I'm not a conservative, far from it, but I
wouldn't for a
second try to get someone to shut up and go away because
they were
more conservative (or libertarian or whatever) than I was.
I wouldn't
call anyone
I have long used this as an argument for more,
rather than less government spending. When the
government spends money like it did during WWII,
the economy soars. And that's just buying things
that you KNOW are only going to be destroyed.
Imagine if the government spent like that for
Oh, cool - he appears to be a really interesting person to
talk to, so I think I'm envious...
He's putting his team together quickly, as indeed he
ought, given the gravity of multiple problems we face.
Goodwill ought to help out a bit, as Rob's cites
suggest, but it will certainly call for
Did you know what a big player he was at that time, or was
he just a
really cool Senator from Illinois with whom you happened to
chat on a
flight?
Dave
it was a couple months before he announced, but there was a lot of buzz. his
staff seemed concerned we were chatting about the daily
Did you know what a big player he was at that time, or was
he just a
really cool Senator from Illinois with whom you happened to
chat on a
flight?
Dave
it was a couple months before he announced, but there was a lot of buzz. his
staff seemed concerned we were chatting about the daily
you know what i mean is more like a form of coercion
under duress when one has no choice but to accept the
banker's terms, since they control the regulators.
How exactly were you coerced under duress? Did they kidnap
you and
take you to the bank, then refuse to allow you to leave
until
As for the realtor, I am surprised that you would do
something just
because a realtor told you to. I think it is more prudent
and
responsible to do some research on one's own (reading,
talking to
knowledgeable friends and acquaintances, etc.) rather than
just doing
what someone (anyone)
Hi. I read it, but several months ago, and wasn't
too good with the authors at the start. I got the
obvious ones, guessed at the rest, and kept on
reading.
If no one else knows, you may have to give us a bit
of dialogue to jog our memories.
---David
Feral Engines,
I would like to also point out the wonderful Saturday Night
Live
appearance where McCain plays himself and makes fun of his
own
situation. It takes a great man to do that just days before
his probable
defeat. Gave me a glimpse of the man he was before the
election
campaigns started
*McCain's concession speech was very much a class act;
I did not think he would be a particularly good president,
but he is a good man.
Debbi
He certainly was when he was a POW, but then, if he had come home early he
would never have been able to live it down. He had a serious anger
For the first time in a long time, I'm feeling quite
proud of what this country has done.
There is one thing that Obama has done that truly, at last
addresses our grief. He calls for a national spirit of
sacrifice, finally ending the arrogance of leadership
that urged us to live life
you know very well what i mean about being forced to
accept a usurious interest rate, because people like
me don't have disposable capital and high credit
ratings.
Actually, I don't know what you mean, which is why I
asked. If you
don't like the terms of the loan, then why borrow the
The problem is that our economy has changed, and we no
longer get the kind of war boost that we got
during WWII. Then, we were a heavy industrial economy and
the massive build up of production was labor intensive and
created millions of new jobs and massive stimulus. Now,
both the nature
I suspect it is; Sterling puts in a bunch of
cute touches. It would be hard to prove, though,
since a lot of the story is about the Emperor of
Mars.
This sequence of stories is set in an alternate
world where the naive science fiction that
populated every planet with humanoid aliens turns
duh; it was the only way i could become a home
owner...
So you wanted to own a home, and you chose to borrow
money to achieve your desire. I don't see where the
force is coming in.
okay, here we go again, troll. are you having fun?
if i wanted to achieve the american dream i would be
of course, i could choose to be a renter
instead, and pay off someone else's mortgage.
double duh...
But a lot of us made exactly that choice Jon -- we chose
not to try and buy because we thought it was too risky and
we weren't sure we'd be able to afford it in the
future. Granted, if I
if i wanted to achieve the american dream i would be
forced to borrow at usurious terms.
So when you write forced in quotes, you really mean
not forced. No
one forced you, or people like you, to borrow money at
terms you did
not like. You chose to do so. Don't you think it is
better to
our economy has changed, and we no longer get
the kind of war boost that we got during
WWII.
makes one yearn for the old days when things
were simpler and a good war could fix everything.
That would depend on whom one is.
I have no such yearning. A strong
economy is good, but
These people would rather people like me be forced to
borrow from unscrupulous mortgage brokers who are
permitted charge higher interest rates, and unregulated
fees,
Who is forcing you to borrow?
no one, i could have remained a renter for the rest of my life, chose not to
pay 8%
If not you, then who is forcing
people like you to borrow? I must
not be people like you, since no
one has ever forced me to borrow.
there you go again, john, deliberately being dense and abusing the context.
you know very well what i mean about being forced to accept a usurious interest
I'll rephrase. After 6 years of FDR, unemployment was
still 19%.
Unemployment only went down to normal levels after the US
entered
World War 2. So if you include going to war as part of the
New Deal,
then yes, the New Deal brought down unemployment.
So John, are you suggesting that the
Unemployment fell dramatically in Roosevelt's
first term, from 25% when he
took office to 14.3% in 1937. This was, of course,
long before the war had
any effect on employment.
The U.S.
economyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Statesgrew
rapidly during Roosevelt's term.
Of course, you know you can't trust Wikipedia:
right, you have to be wary of trolls making shite up!~)
jon
http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolutionism
oops, wrong link. Try this:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Bias_in_Wikipedia
Alberto Monteiro
The difference is that, in this mailing list, trolls sign
the messages, so it's easy to spot them after 2 weeks.
Alberto Monteiro
but how do we know they are using their real name, alberto?
some of us have tried to track dopwn john williams, and even offered him
cash, but it seems he prefers
I'm done with this conversation since
you ducked my question about what
should replace government regulation.
our resident troll does that a lot. i suspect he is an ayn rand libertarian
wannabe, or he just likes to agitate. one would think that the current
collapse would wake these people
tired of the repetition of one answer
to every problem, because some things
are just not nails.
Government regulations are definitely
not nails. Ticking time bombs would
be a better metaphor.
the economic boom due to unregulated greed has turned into an exploded bomb -
no longer
Has anyone got any suggestions
for a better political system?
Benevolent fascism?~)
Jon
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of course, holland, and other western countries, (...)
troll
The name of the country is The Netherlands.
Holland is one part of it, which, unfortunately,
has permeated western languages
as the name of the whole country.
In Portuguese, it's even awful. We use
Holanda when we should
Where did you tour on your bicycle?
Charlie
Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru
New Zed in '87 89. I hitched all over Aus
and had all kinds of adventures. I am thinking
about building a bike and doing the Stewart
Island, and the South Island.
Nice. I'm still thinking
Which is why Obama's plan doesn't try to
replace that knowledge,
Of course the plan doesn't STATE that it will do so.
But every time the
government bureaucracy gets involved in a system, a
complicated set of
rules and regulations begins accreting in a vain and
ultimately doomed
is it correct to call natives of the netherlands,
dutch? jon
Yes, but I think there is no useful adjective relative to
Holland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland
Alberto Monteiro
hollandaise?
netherlanders?
jon
___
These rules will constrain both the suppliers and the
consumers, and will
effectively result in inefficient government control of
health care. It will create
a system devoid of the give and take of consumers shopping
around trying
to find the best supplier for what they need at the best
How long are you planning to be touring? 'cause packing
for a two week
tour is very different from packing for 10 months on the
road!
Charlie
Who Has Spent Ten Months On The Road Maru
you have me beat by several months.
any advice would be greatly appreciated.
the first time i did
While I think innovation is lovely,
there is another evolution you may
not be aware of - Community based
research networks. Instead of one
group doing research over time with
relatively slow advances, groups work
collaboratively. The great example
is the 6ish cancer research
Where did you tour on your bicycle?
Charlie
Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru
New Zed in '87 89. I hitched all over Aus and had all kinds of adventures.
I am thinking about building a bike and doing the South Island and Stewart
Island.
Jon
what it comes down to is choosing the lesser evil...
jon
As some have pointed out, the lesser of two evils is
still evil.
. . . ronn! :)
I don't think either candidate is evil, they are both obligated to different
sets of special interests and the less evil of those are the dems...
jon
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