At 04:10 PM 08/05/04 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:
snip
Even now, State is being shut out of the loop. One day Powell tells the
Black Caucus there will be no request for additional funds for Iraq, the
next day there is a request for 25 billion.
I can't deal with a number that large.
Let's see. The
--
From: Gary Denton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sat, 8 May 2004 23:11:39 +, Alberto Monteiro
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why would the USA torturers _document_ the torture? When
> we had state-sponsored torture in Brazil, back in the 70s,
> when we were fighting communist by closing brazi
On Sat, 8 May 2004 22:18:23 -0500, Gary Denton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sat, 8 May 2004 23:11:39 +, Alberto Monteiro
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Why would the USA torturers _document_ the torture? When
> > we had state-sponsored torture in Brazil, back in the 70s,
> > when we we
On Sat, 8 May 2004 14:43:28 -0700, Mike Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This one could be marked as wingnut response number 6.
4) Denial #1: Isolated incident.
5) Denial #2: It was due to a low-level Bureaucrat. Dear leader would
never tolerate such behavior.
6) Blame the messenger: You libe
On Sat, 8 May 2004 16:10:51 -0500, Dan Minette
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
> Su
Sat, 8 May 2004 23:11:39 +, Alberto Monteiro
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why would the USA torturers _document_ the torture? When
> we had state-sponsored torture in Brazil, back in the 70s,
> when we were fighting communist by closing brazilian
> economy and establishing state monopolies,
Gary Denton, dumb to the last drop:
> > And the Supreme Court has ruled against them when? And >they have
> > ignored the
> >
> > Court after that ruling when? And the administration
> >implemented the
> > Patriot Act despite Congress not passing it?
>
> Actually they did, many provisions of
- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> I missed what happened today. What did Kennedy do?
On Fri, 7 May 2004 20:30:00 -0700, Messiah Mike Lee
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't quite get what your point is here. Somewhere in there, I supposed
> you think that the GOP is worse than Stalin, but other than that, I'm
> baffled.
Baffled Mike Lee throws in that somehow people who oppose hi
At 10:33 AM 07/05/04 -0500, you wrote:
At 09:40 AM 5/7/04, Andrew Paul wrote:
You dont start wars. Its always a stupid thing to do.
That depends on the viewpoint.
When the psychological trait that motivates people to get into wars evolved
a million years ago the choice was sometimes very bleak.
- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> Mike Lee wrote:
>
> > What our MPs did t
Mike Lee wrote:
> What our MPs did to those prisoners in Iraq sucked. Whether it technically
> violated the conventions, I don't know or care. I'm proud of how the Bushies
> have sucked it up and taken their lumps. No, they haven't been perfect. Bush
> didn't say the A-word timely. Rumsfeld was a
Gary, still in not-getting-it mode:
> > If it's been a big talking point for you l&l's for so long,
> why shut up now?
> > Where are the demonstrations organized by ANSWER in front of the UN
> > building? Where's Michael Whoore or John Kerry talking
> about it every
> > damn day?
>
> Uh, beca
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:24 AM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> On Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:34 -0500, Gary Denton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Washington Post
Pardon me for jumping in on this, but Mr. Lee seems not to have had time
to read and post yet this morning
Gary Denton wrote:
>
> On Thu, 6 May 2004 20:33:41 -0700, Mike Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > By the way, Bush just used the word "apologize"
> > but it still won't make you happy
At 09:40 AM 5/7/04, Andrew Paul wrote:
You dont start wars. Its always a stupid thing to do.
How about joining in when one is already in progress, whether it has been
"declared" or not?
-- Ronn! :)
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/br
--- Andrew Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I feel that this lack of clarity as to why they are
> there feeds down to the people on the ground.
> They are not drones, they are people risking their
> lives. The lack of a simple moral basis,
> which i feel stems from the rush with which Bush
> went
- Original Message -
From: "Andrew Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
> I still stand by my original postion on this war.
> You
From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>--- Andrew Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Yea, we cant have the horrible truth of war coming
>> out can we.
>>
>> Andrew
>Well, the _truth_ of war includes all the people whose
>lives are saved and made better. The truth of war is
>not the sa
--- Andrew Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yea, we cant have the horrible truth of war coming
> out can we.
>
> Andrew
Well, the _truth_ of war includes all the people whose
lives are saved and made better. The truth of war is
not the same thing as the costs of war. So I'm
comfortable with t
From: Mike Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after
>they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or
>otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them
>instead of just on you stupid liber
From: Mike Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything
>> so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic
>> behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all
>> the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the
>> atro
On Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:34 -0500, Gary Denton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Washington Post -
>
> The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly
> declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in
> Afghanistan "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conv
Mike Lee wrote:
Gary Denton, putting me in "Oh, Please!" mode:
Cool! Gary found a switch. Is there one marked "off" nearby?
Dave
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
On Thu, 6 May 2004 20:33:41 -0700, Mike Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Gary Denton, putting me in "Oh, Please!" mode:
It's a start.
>
> > > Mike Lee
> > > Savior of the Masses writes:
>
> Like all true Saviors, the masses loathe me.
Something else we might agree on.
> > The liberals and
Gary Denton, putting me in "Oh, Please!" mode:
> > Mike Lee
> > Savior of the Masses writes:
Like all true Saviors, the masses loathe me.
> > You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn
> > now and then.
>
> Seems to be your version of a compliment.
If you can't tell
- Original Message -
From: "Deborah Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> > Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECT
> Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > From: "Robert Seeberger"
> > Wl...if it was good for you, then
> >I guess it's good enough for the world court.
>
> A whole new way to look at "put a sock on it."
Meant to say 'thanks' for the clarification of what a
'sock puppet' is
> Mike Lee
> Savior of the Masses writes:
> Gary Denton, self-loathing American keeps on keeping on:
> > There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even
> > deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was an
> > military intel and CIA operation whose operative and civilian
> >
Gary Denton, self-loathing American keeps on keeping on:
> Begin - Boston Globe:Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges
When they get away with it, call me. The pointing-with-alarm-possibility
that they might get away with it doesn't much make me care. Though I will
give you credit if the poi
At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote:
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:
> I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the
> interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.
> Is that more like Saddam for you Mike?
Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If
- Original Message -
From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "M
- Original Message -
From: "Mike Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM
Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's
On Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:23 -0500, Dan Minette
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I read the report that is the source of most information and didn't see any
> indication that she wasn't allowed in that part of the prison. I certainly
> got the impression that she didn't practice management by walking a
- Original Message -
From: "Gary Denton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette
> <[
On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That lack of control in the prison would
> > all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod
> orders
>
> allow
Absolutely, and you are overlooking that the general wasn';t even
allowed in that
- Original Message -
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> That lack of control in the prison would
> all G. Gordo
- Original Message -
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> --- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> &
On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:
> > Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't
> > facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison,
> > no crime has been committed in the US, and the US
Mike Lee wrote:
>
> Julia, the voice of bloody reason:
>
> > It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify
> > all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement,
> > and turn them over to the Iraqi people.
> >
> > Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would
- Original Message -
From: "Gary Denton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
.
>
> I present you with the newspaper article and you wa
On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:
sticks and stones
>
> > I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the
> > interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.
> > Is that more like Saddam for you
- Original Message -
From: "Mike Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM
Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> The effect of what these young idiots did i
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:
> I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the
> interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.
> Is that more like Saddam for you Mike?
Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not
surprised. You know
Oh, and Gary forgot to mention:
The Iraqi's name was Tawanna Brawley.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton
> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:28 PM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Re: Disturb
Gary, in ugly self-loathing American mode:
> So we aren't like Saddam because our guys are wimps and not
> bloody enough?
It amazes me what you liberals can say and not think you need to wipe your
mouths with toilet paper.
You really think the only reason that those soldiers didn't rape & mutil
Guatam, with spot-on analysis, as usual, until he loses it with a single
word:
> would be too stupid for words).
> Some high-value prisoners were probably being aggressively
> interrogated. That ethos spread through much of the prison.
> The particular guards involved with this were a bunch o
Guatam, justifiably pissed:
> That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually
> incapable of thinking about this rationally. I am
> _quivering_ with rage about this. This is personal to me. I
> volunteered to go there almost a year ago.
> _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my
Julia, the voice of bloody reason:
> It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify
> all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement,
> and turn them over to the Iraqi people.
>
> Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be
> served, and it would be
At 10:26 PM 04/05/04 -0500, ulia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
snip
At the risk of drawing a lot of fire from all quarters:
It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the
people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over
to the Iraqi people.
Some
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually
> incapable of thinking about this rationally. I am
> _quivering_ with rage about this. This is personal to
> me. I volunteered to go there almost a year ago.
> _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security
--- Damon Agretto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, that's an interesting theory, but I don't
> neccessarily agree with it
> (before or after). Most of the time, where troops
> have contact with the
> local population or the enemy, women soldiers will
> not be around, or at the
> very least appare
A lot of
> people (myself included) credited this to the higher
> rate of integration of women into the American
> military, on the theory that men tend to act more
> decently in front of women and that women are less
> likely to suffer from testosterone poisoning.
Well, that's an interesting theo
- Original Message -
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appea
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears
> to have been shocked
> as I have, and as you haven't. My shock was
> partially based on the
> assumption that the US occupation force was
> competent enough to provide as
> good a prison environment
- Original Message -
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
>
> But that's neither here nor there. It&#
Dan sure has lots of questions:
> 1) How strong was the emphasis on getting information vs.
> keeping professional and humane standards?
>
> 2) What training did the guards have?
>
> 3) What was the role of the private contractor?
>
> 4) How much supervision did the guards have?
>
> 5) How ea
Mike Lee:
>>
All our enemies, including the New York Times and Ted Koppel, are
already all over this.
Let's also remember that this is hazing, not torture. No wood
chippers, no blood splashing all over the place.
It's not morally equivalent to what Saddam did (as I've heard several
media morons s
I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the interrogations
apparently raped one of the male prisoners. Is that more like Saddam
for you Mike?
Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't facing
charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, no crime has
been co
Here is the url - http://www.sundayherald.com/41693
Don't just blame untrained unsupervised Americans either:
"The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 on the
floor of a military truck being brutalised. According to two squaddies
who took part in the torture, but later blew th
http://www.prisonexp.org/
Gary
http://elemming2.blogspot.com
On Mon, 03 May 2004 13:44:01 -0230, Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >Anyone here ever seen the results of Zambardo's
> >Stanford Prison Experiment?
>
> Do you have a link for that? I'm currently engaged in a debate on this
From: Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
Anyone here ever seen the results of Zambardo
--- Damon Agretto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think My Lai is a good example of not
> passing the responsibility,
> since it ignores the post-Vietnam transformation of
> the Army.
>
> Damon.
Certainly a fair point, and the post-Vietnam
transformation cannot be overestimated. Nonetheless
Rumsfeld and the Iraqi war team ignored tons of work on how to occupy
Iraq. Detailed plans on the people, material and training needed.
I am not surprised they also decided a seat-of-the-pants operation for
war prisoners was also decided on.
As Gen. Zinni recently said, it was an open secret b
I don't think My Lai is a good example of not passing the responsibility,
since it ignores the post-Vietnam transformation of the Army.
Damon.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
From: Ritu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 1) How strong was the emphasis on getting information vs.
>> keeping professional and humane standards?
>Do you even need to ask this question after Guantanamo and Jose Padilla
>case? Lines are being crossed/blurred and human rights don't really seem
>to
From: JDG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>At 11:50 AM 4/30/2004 -0500 Dan Minette wrote:
>>1) How strong was the emphasis on getting information vs. keeping
>>professional and humane standards?
>From what I have gatherered, these incidents were not connected to serious
>attempts to gain information.
Dan Minette wrote:
> I would have expected the US to have anticipated potential
> problems and to have institutionalized checks to minimize the
> chance of this happening.
The way the coalition anticipated other events and took stringent
preventive actions? ;)
> I've heard disgust expressed by
- Original Message -
From: "JDG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
> At 11:50 AM 4/30/2004 -0500 Dan Minette wrote:
> >1) How stron
At 11:50 AM 4/30/2004 -0500 Dan Minette wrote:
>1) How strong was the emphasis on getting information vs. keeping
>professional and humane standards?
>From what I have gatherered, these incidents were not connected to serious
attempts to gain information. Rather, the Iraqi prisoners appear to ha
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was shocked and saddened to see and hear evidence
> of what looks like
> atrocities performed by US guards of Iraqi
> prisoners.
I'm not even a tiny bit shocked, unfortunately.
Anyone here ever seen the results of Zambardo's
Stanford Prison Experi
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