[ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've got a Dimension 4100 that I've been using for almost 3 years now (PIII
800/60gb/512mb) and it's been rock solid since day 1
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:25 , Joe Eugene wrote:
vi rocks :)
whats that?
Aw, Joe, you just made my day... you are *so* funny! :)
If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood
__
Sean A Corfield wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 11:09 , Joe Eugene wrote:
C# is basically Microsofts version of Java..
Pardon?
I think that is quite right when you look at how it is positioned by
Microsoft. It appears to be their main programming language for
application
: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:20 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Jesse
Knowing some of your platform preferences, I don't think that is a
serious answer -- the original question is serious, though!
Dick
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:57 AM
I have to say as regards Dell...
I've found the OptiPlex (business line) to be rock-solid
Dimension (consumer-line)... always some weird problem.
Any similar experience? Point is if Dell, I would HIGHLY recommend you
go for their business-line system.
Tony Carcieri wrote:
Damn, I didn't
PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Kreig Zimmerman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:19 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I have to say as regards Dell...
I've found the OptiPlex (business line) to be rock-solid
-
From: Kreig Zimmerman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:19 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I have to say as regards Dell...
I've found the OptiPlex (business line) to be rock-solid
Dimension (consumer-line)... always some
guy
But I ned tacos! I need them or I will
explode! That happens to me sometimes! -GIR
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:20 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Jesse
I appreciate your answer, and it does surprise me!
I expect it would!
I have no experience with win2k, but was put off by winXP's constant
nagging (kinda' reminds me of myself).
Why XP over 2k?
XP nagging? I run xp on 2 laptops, and 4 workstations. It never bothers me.
I will use some
XP + Java works fine. Better than win2k. hate. Win2k.
Really? I haven't had any problems, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend Win2K
for developers' machines. In fact, I'm not really interested in XP at all,
since Win2K works so well for us.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've got a Dimension 4100 that I've been using for almost 3 years now
(PIII 800/60gb/512mb) and it's been rock solid since day 1. My only
problems were the IBM
Finally, is PostgreSQL available for win -- I heard somewhere
that it is not?
Jochem recently mentioned that a native Windows version is in beta. In the
meantime, I think it's available as part of the cygwin distribution
(http://www.cygwin.com/).
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
, September 11, 2002 11:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
XP + Java works fine. Better than win2k. hate. Win2k.
Really? I haven't had any problems, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend
Win2K
for developers' machines. In fact, I'm not really interested
Message-
From: Kreig Zimmerman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:19 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I have to say as regards Dell...
I've found the OptiPlex (business line) to be rock-solid
Dimension (consumer-line
-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
XP + Java works fine. Better than win2k. hate. Win2k.
Really? I haven't had any problems, and wouldn't hesitate
Finally, is PostgreSQL available for win -- I heard somewhere that it
is not?
First install Cygwin, then PostgreSQL for Windows. (I would not run
production on that BTW, but any Linux/BSD/Unix should be fine.)
The Windows native port of PostgreSQL is under way, I am currently
running the
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
developer platform of choice here in our dev group.
winxp
cfmx
sql 2000
cfstudio
dell/sony laptops (either as good as the other)
photoshop
ie6
.tony
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:59 AM, Raymond Camden wrote:
The only thing I'd kill for is the ablity to suppress programs from
taking focus. Nothing bugs me more as a developer who types fast.
What does this mean?
Dick
Thanks, Jochem
PostgreSQL for development is fine -- I won't be doing any hosting.
Dick
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:54 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote:
Finally, is PostgreSQL available for win -- I heard somewhere that it
is not?
First install Cygwin, then PostgreSQL for Windows.
-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Jesse
I appreciate your answer, and it does surprise me!
I have no experience with win2k, but was put off by winXP's constant
nagging (kinda' reminds me of myself).
Why XP over 2k?
I will use some Java also.
I have been
the DeskStar 72GB.
Joshua Miller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Gilchrist [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:07 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Maybe the OptiPlex is fine in the aggregate but I'm on my
, September 11, 2002 11:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
XP + Java works fine. Better than win2k. hate. Win2k.
Really? I haven't had any problems, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend Win2K
for developers' machines. In fact, I'm not really interested in XP
]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:11 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:59 AM, Raymond Camden wrote:
The only thing I'd kill for is the ablity to suppress programs from
taking focus. Nothing bugs me
, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:11 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:59 AM, Raymond Camden
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo IM : cfjedimaster
My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:11 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions
: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:59 AM, Raymond Camden wrote:
The only thing I'd kill for is the ablity to suppress programs from
taking focus. Nothing bugs me more as a developer who types fast.
What does this mean
: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:59 AM, Raymond Camden wrote:
The only thing I'd kill for is the ablity to suppress programs from
taking focus. Nothing bugs me more as a developer who types fast.
What does this mean
PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've got a Dimension 4100 that I've been using for almost 3 years now
(PIII 800/60gb/512mb) and it's been rock solid since day 1. My only
problems
Ya' know, it gets pretty old... I am beginning to accept the fact that
as a Mac/CF developer, I will always be a second-class citizen, and not
have equal resources with the competition.
So, I am open to suggestions:
If you could chose a platform today, with no baggage, what would it be?
I
Windows 2k
Advantages.
CF(CFMX) Development
JSP(CFMX) or Tomcat Development
NET Development
SQL Server
Oracle
Joe
- Original Message -
From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:12 PM
Subject: Developer Platform suggestions
I've used Windows 9x and they worked okay as long as you rebooted at
least once a day (preferably twice).
I use Windows 2000 now. I've had few problems and the system is very
stable, even if I don't reboot it for 3-4 days.
At 10:12 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:
Ya' know, it gets pretty
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
redhat linux. Dick, I think you're going about this the wrong way tho.
OSX shows a lot of promise from what I've seen (despite that it's a day
and a dollar too late). Hell, I'm jealous of OSX that it runs on top of a
stable
-
From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:12 PM
Subject: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Ya' know, it gets pretty old... I am beginning to accept the fact
that
as a Mac/CF developer, I will always be a second-class
Dick Applebaum wrote:
Ya' know, it gets pretty old... I am beginning to accept the fact that
as a Mac/CF developer, I will always be a second-class citizen, and not
have equal resources with the competition.
So, I am open to suggestions:
If you could chose a platform today, with no
CEO
Montara Software, Inc.
http://www.montarasoftware.com/
888-408-0900 x901
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:23 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've used Windows 9x
machines and I am
running SP3 with all sec. patches.
HTH,
Big T
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:23 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've used Windows 9x and they worked okay
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
redhat linux. Dick, I think you're going about this the wrong way tho.
OSX shows a lot of promise from what I've seen (despite that it's a day
and a
: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:37 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
IMHO, I'd go with Linux. Not only does CF run the best on Linux, but you
also have access to any kind of text editor/IDE you could want. Many of
them are way better than DMX, which isn't saying
Server... I think u can get a developer edition.
Joe
- Original Message -
From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Joe
Do you have NET, SQL Server Oracle
Linux, I like redhat's. But I, for one, would hate to see you give up on
osx.
-Craig
__
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
FAQ:
PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Dick Applebaum wrote:
Ya' know, it gets pretty old... I am beginning to accept the fact that
as a Mac/CF developer, I will always be a second-class citizen, and not
have equal resources with the competition.
So, I am
Build your own development box.. i dont trust whats in DELL or Gateway ...
and wouldnt even consider HP.
From: Tony Carcieri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:45:56
Jochem
Emotionally, I agree with you!
I am even teased when I come across a reference to the Mac (Darwin,
Rapsody, etc.) in the CFMX code.
I took this to mean that there was intent to support the Mac (past,
present or future).
From what I perceive, this is not likely to happen -- at bets
See Dick, there is something worst than a Mac. A Gateway! *cringes*
I refuse to touch a gateway, especially since years ago when I heard they
were recycling refurbished parts as 'real parts' and ... well, my parents
had a gateway and that was a war story itself. :P
~Todd
On Tue, 10 Sep
: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I would highly recommend OS2/Warp 4
Jesse Noller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Macromedia Server Development
Unix/Linux special guy
But I ned tacos! I need them or I will
explode! That happens to me sometimes! -GIR
-Original Message-
From: Matt
Why do you rule Access out as a viable db for demos?
Jerry Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/10/02 01:57PM
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
...(and I rule out MS-Access as a viable db for presentations/demonstrations)?
: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:37 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
IMHO, I'd go with Linux. Not only does CF run the best on Linux, but you
also have access to any kind of text editor/IDE you could want. Many of
them are way better than DMX
Which? Windows or Linux?
If you want to keep things simple and don't want to have to fuss with
linux driver compatibilities, etc. Then, go with Windows 2000 or XP.
Why?
If you've never dealt with linux before, you'll thank me. Yes, it's
gotten easier to install, but despite what Matt L.
Do you have NET, SQL Server Oracle installed on your
developer machine/
Yes, you can run all of those on a laptop. On my laptop, running Win2K
Server SP3, I have SQL Server 2000 and the .NET Framework, among other
things. I don't have Oracle installed right now, but several people here run
opinion about this)
Cost - $2,000-$4,000 depending on your hardware
Laptops? I would go either IBM or Dell
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
.
SQL Server... I think u can get a developer edition.
Joe
From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:31:36 -0700
Joe
Do you have NET, SQL Server Oracle
Gateway has replaced my monitor ~10 times. I keep having the same
problem. At least 2 or 3 of them didn't work right out of box.
Very frustrating...
I'm almost out of warranty, so I hope this monitor sticks.
At 02:37 PM 9/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
See Dick, there is something worst
or I will
explode! That happens to me sometimes! -GIR
-Original Message-
From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:37 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
IMHO, I'd go with Linux. Not only does CF run
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:57 , Dick Applebaum wrote:
The fact that an OS is good or bad isn't the issue. What I need is an
OS that supports my Developer platform of choice and vise-versa.
Well, it really depends on how closely you need your laptop to mirror any
production
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:23 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I've used Windows 9x and they worked okay as long as you rebooted at
least once a day (preferably twice).
I
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 11:09 , Joe Eugene wrote:
C# is basically Microsofts version of Java..
Pardon?
If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood
__
Get the mailserver that powers
.
Matt Liotta
President CEO
Montara Software, Inc.
http://www.montarasoftware.com/
888-408-0900 x901
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:23 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
redhat linux. Dick, I think you're going
]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Joe
Do you have NET, SQL Server Oracle installed on your developer
machine/
Are there free/reasonable developer versions of these available.
The reason I ask is I want a completely self
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:31 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Yes, looking at the Warp web-site (
http://www-3.ibm.com/software/os/warp/ ) it does seem to be Y2K ready, and
compatible with most Windows 3.x applications
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 11:17 AM, Craig Thomas wrote:
Linux, I like redhat's. But I, for one, would hate to see you give up
on
osx.
I would naturally tend towards Linux over Windows. So far, the number
suggesting each seems to be about even.
No more than me--- but there comes
it's on it's
way up
so that's a good thing!
Right now I work on Win2k pro and it's stabledoes what it needs.
Stace
-Original Message-
From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform
I personally have stuck with Win2k and have been very pleased. I run three dev boxes.
Two desktops and one laptop. One desktop runs Apache and the others are IIS.
I primarily develop in mySQL/win. Its dirt-simple to use, free, resource-light, has a
great enterprise mgr (3rd party) and is
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:52 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
Which? Windows or Linux?
If you want to keep things simple and don't want to have to fuss with
linux driver compatibilities
Joe
That's probably good advice for most, but I'd prefer off-the-shelf
hardware -- even if I pay more -- just so I don't have to screw around
with the hardware.
I figure regardless of platform I will need to constantly fiddle with
the software. I have some experience with, Win 31, win 95,
PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
See Dick, there is something worst than a Mac. A Gateway! *cringes*
I refuse to touch a gateway, especially since years ago when I heard they
were recycling refurbished parts
You can - as you mentioned - use MSDE for MS SQL. Its free, included on any Office CD
and if you own an MS product with MSDE on it you are licensed to use it (I checked
with MS a few months back). But you don't get the Enterprise Manager. I use a
combination of SQL statements and eyeballing
: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
redhat linux. Dick, I think you're going about this the wrong way
tho. OSX shows a lot of promise from what I've seen
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the majority of the program I ran wasn't windows based, I'd run
redhat linux
opinions (no
matter how wrong everyone else is! HA). You're my kind of guy.
Good luck
Mitch
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September
Because I've been burned, several times.
MS-Access can lock up with as few as 1 concurrent user. It is not
always easy to recover (get rid of the idb file).
Just not the sort of thing you want to do in the middle of a
presentation.
Don't get me wrong -- MS-Acces has its place -- it is just
HP systems are great, we have a couple dozen HP LPR's and they are
absolutely great, but overpriced systems. We have switched to Intel
rackmounts, same systems without some of the perks of the HP systems,
for a couple thousand less, and they are black :)
We just got an Intel dual P4 Xeon
Matt
You make it sound like I can sell my Mac stuff, buy equivalent wintel
come out $ ahead??
Should I expect to get win2K or win XP included in the price of a
laptop?
Do you find MySQL deficiencies (transaction, stored procedures, etc),
force recoding or dumbing-down of your db interface?
;)
Joshua Miller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:17 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I like stable!
I like free!
I especially like not being at the mercy
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 12:17 , Dick Applebaum wrote:
I assume, Apache as a Web Server -- if not, what?
Yes, Apache (even on Windows, as far as I'm concerned).
Which GUI, if any? I prefer KDE, but am open to valid reasons!
That's a religious issue :)
I am investigating Jedit
I would naturally tend towards Linux over Windows. So far, the number
suggesting each seems to be about even.
If it's got to be a laptop, I have to weigh in on the windoze side. Too
many driver/hardware problems with my laptop and RedHat Linux, so I use w2k.
The only thing I miss on it from my
I just bought a 160 Gig external firewire -- it is faster
than the laptop's 40 gig internal drive -- will firewire
work on an intel box or do I need to get something else?
Firewire works fine under Windows 2000, as long as your machine has a
Firewire port. Most new high-end laptops have
Should I expect to get win2K or win XP included in the price
of a laptop?
Yes; you'll find it hard to get a laptop without them.
I don't see Oracle as a standard development db, other than
for testing before final deployment.
It's not trivial to migrate from one database platform to
.
-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:02 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
I just bought a 160 Gig external firewire -- it is faster
than the laptop's 40 gig internal drive
vi rocks :)
whats that?
Joe
-Original Message-
From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:20 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Developer Platform suggestions was Re: Nice
On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 12:17 , Dick Applebaum wrote
I wouldn't worry too much about .NET going anywhere in
the near future. Besides, Java is proprietary too, in
many respects - it's largely controlled by Sun, never
mind what they tell you about the Java Community Process.
Is there any specific reason you say the below? I mean
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