Re: Navigation board @ Pulster shop

2011-07-18 Thread ml
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:51:33 +0200, Christoph Mair 
wrote:
> Am Samstag 18 Juni 2011, 14:51:05 schrieb Daniele Forsi:
>> can someone recommend an USB<->i2c interface to use the navigation
>> board externally, for those who don't feel like touching their
>> Freerunner with a soldering iron or have a netbook?

The wiki page now contains instructions on how to connect the naviboard v3
to a graphics card [1]. This should enable everyone to use it and requires
only three parts: a VGA connector (or DVI or HDMI), a 3V regulator (LDO)
and a naviboard. Connect everything as described, plug it in, load the
i2c-dev module and run i2cdetect to check if it's working.
If the instructions are not detailed enough, please complain and I will
try to clarify any issues.

I tested this setup with the integrated Intel graphics card on my notebook
and it worked fine, a test with an nvidia card will follow. To find the
right I2C bus on your machine, load the i2c-dev module and run i2cdetect on
all available busses (look in /sys/bus/i2c/devices for i2c-*, or simply try
this: "for i in `seq 1 20`; do echo $i; i2cdetect -y $i; done;"). The
commands output should be different if your monitor is disconnected (or
switched off).

Have fun!

  Christoph

[1]:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3#Example:_connect_the_board_to_a_graphics_card


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Re: Navigation board @ Pulster shop

2011-06-18 Thread Christoph Mair
Am Samstag 18 Juni 2011, 14:51:05 schrieb Daniele Forsi:
> 2011/6/17 Christoph Pulster wrote:
> > I think the Open Source community is missing to link and interaction
> > between projects. Add-on products like navigation-board can cross the
> > gap, for exaple it is useful for Openmoko, Qi Nanonote and Pandora.
> 
> indeed
> 
> can someone recommend an USB<->i2c interface to use the navigation
> board externally, for those who don't feel like touching their
> Freerunner with a soldering iron or have a netbook?

I don't have experiences with USB-I2C interfaces but anyone should work. Be 
sure to add a 3V voltage regulator (LDO) if you want to power the board from 
USB which supplies 5V.

If you want you can build your own adapter using an old VGA cable. The I2C bus 
is used for DDC. If you have a spare VGA or DVI connector on your computer you 
could use it to connect the FRNB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector 
pin 12 and pin 15).

To power the board you could try pin 9 which should carry 5V. Use a LDO 
regulator to get 3.3V or 3.0V which is needed for the sensors.

The I2C bus needs level translation too. Fortunately, if you have a complete 
board, the needed chip is already included. I will add a section to the wiki 
about how to connect the board to a 5V I2C bus. Pinout and more documentation 
will be added too.

Hope that helps,
  Christoph

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Re: Navigation board @ Pulster shop

2011-06-18 Thread Daniele Forsi
2011/6/17 Christoph Pulster wrote:

> I think the Open Source community is missing to link and interaction
> between projects. Add-on products like navigation-board can cross the
> gap, for exaple it is useful for Openmoko, Qi Nanonote and Pandora.

indeed

can someone recommend an USB<->i2c interface to use the navigation
board externally, for those who don't feel like touching their
Freerunner with a soldering iron or have a netbook?
-- 
Daniele Forsi

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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-06 Thread Stefan Monnier
> a) the group "free software" is nothing but a combination of an adjective  
> and a substantive, the adjective qualifying the substantive

That might be the case, but in the context of distributing a piece of
software in the context of GNU/Linux, "free software" refers to
the FSF's notion.
Any other use is a misuse,


Stefan


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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Neil Jerram
2010/1/5 Viktor Lindberg :

> I don't wish to be rude but you're not actually contradicting anything
> i'm saying afaict

Actually I think I am a bit.  You said "Not just open for anyone to
examine as is the case with Open Source", which sounds to me like you
are saying that people cannot modify or redistribute Open Source code.

But in fact they can, according to every OSI-approved license that
I've heard of.

> thought you are putting the words diffrently to
> emphasis that Open Source would have a better technical solution, i'm
> not sure that is the case, it might be true to some extent yes.

It sounds like you think that I'm supporting the Open Source point of
view.  I'm not; I was just trying to describe the philosophical
difference as clearly as possible.  As it happens, I strongly prefer
the Free Software point of view - and I completely agree with what you
write next:

> But
> when you have virtues and value ethics highly you might have to avoid
> certain methods which you consider evil to some extent.
>
> And frankly to use any GNU/Linux distribution as an example, Free
> Software is not that technically inferior. [...]

> Yes it is true that the Open Source movement likes to focus on the
> technical advantages of Open Source Software, but it's not true to say
> that good technical solution is ignored by the Free Software
> movement.

Well I certainly hope not, given that I've been working (on and off)
on a FSF project for more than 10 years now...  :-)

Best wishes,
  Neil

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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Viktor Lindberg
On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 03:39:42PM +, Neil Jerram wrote:
> 2010/1/5 Viktor Lindberg :
> >
> > The Open Source Movement have instead choosen to abandom the ethical
> > principle of freedom and only promote the use of Open Source software
> > that might not be libre (free as in freedom), which is not the same
> > idea as the Free Software movement has. [...] Not just open for anyone to 
> > examine as is the case with Open
> > Source.
> 
> FWIW, that is not my understanding.  I believe that the practical
> requirements of Open Source and Free Software are mostly identical.
> The difference is one of philosophical emphasis: the Open Source
> movement chooses to emphasize practical and tangible benefits from
> using and working on their projects, whereas the Free Software
> movement emphasizes freedom, even if it means working in the short
> term with an inferior product.

I don't wish to be rude but you're not actually contradicting anything
i'm saying afaict thought you are putting the words diffrently to
emphasis that Open Source would have a better technical solution, i'm
not sure that is the case, it might be true to some extent yes. But
when you have virtues and value ethics highly you might have to avoid
certain methods which you consider evil to some extent.

And frankly to use any GNU/Linux distribution as an example, Free
Software is not that technically inferior. In fact most GNU/Linux
systems are have a much higher rate of free software as part of the
system then non free open source software. There are even
distributions that have strict policies agains including non free
software that works perfectly well with perhaps the small exceptions
of some few hardware drivers, in this case you can just avoid buying
hardware from vendors who completle ignores the call for free software.

Not to forget OpenBSD which is 100% Free Software and is renown for
being a really good technical solution.

Yes it is true that the Open Source movement likes to focus on the
technical advantages of Open Source Software, but it's not true to say
that good technical solution is ignored by the Free Software
movement. However the big diffrence lies as you said in the
philosophical part, that ethical apsects of software freedom, thus
somtimes the Free Software movement is sometimes happy with a
suboptimal solution for the sake of moral issues. (in my case i
consider linux a subotpimal technical solution, but it allows for me
to run a fully free OS)

> I hope that's useful to someone (and correct!) ...
> 
> Neil
> 
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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Pieter Colpaert
Since this is a mailinglist about openmoko's «free»runner, I think it's
normal to assume everyone on this mailinglist understands the idea
behind the free philosophy.

On Tue, 2010-01-05 at 16:09 +0100, Viktor Lindberg wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 01:21:50PM +0100, arne anka wrote:
> > > the term "free software" was coined in or before 1989, when the GPLv1 was
> > > published by the free software foundation [1].
> > 
> > a) the group "free software" is nothing but a combination of an adjective  
> > and a substantive, the adjective qualifying the substantive
> > b) qualifying a substantive with "free" has been in use long before the  
> > creation of "software"
> > c) "free software" is in no way an unique term or used uniquely by the FSF  
> > -- the sentence you are quoting very clearly proves that by saying
> > ""When we speak of free software"
> > ie, the term is used in a certain sense in a certain context (the GPL) --  
> > but there's no way, the GPL is globally applicable ot the authors are in  
> > any way authorized to rule the use of those very common and widely used  
> > words in a very common grammatical construction.
> >
> 
> Qualifying a substantive with "free" is far older yes, but that is
> not a point, nor is a) a point. c) may be a point but they're really
> just bringing clearity cause the word is fuzzy.
> 
> > 
> > to conclude the discussion: sebastian  would be right _only_ if somewhere  
> > in the discussion all participants had agreed to put the software in  
> > question under the GPL or at least use the GPL's definition.
> > i can't recall, that has ever happend -- insofar any claim to use the  
> > GPL's definition as the solely applicable one is not justified!
> 
> If one is to be used then that one should be used. Ethymologically
> that is right, but also the other usage of the word isn't really
> widely spread nor accepted by many today, it also makes no sense.
> 
> > it is understandable to think in the trems of the GPL but it is not the  
> > only way to think.
> > thus, if any author claims his/her software to be "free software", he/she  
> > is entitled to it -- only if he/she accepted the GPL's definition as the  
> > binding definition of the term, his/her software has to meet the  
> > requirements laid down in the GPL.
> 
> GPL is not the only free license. Furthermore, if you by using the term
> "free software" to describe software that is not free but gratis, you
> have misused the word haven't you?
> 
> > > but arne, whilst i hugely admire your software chops and appreciate the  
> > > work you've done,
> > 
> > i don't know, what exactly you are talking about, but thanks anyway :-)
> > 
> > > i think you're wrong to insist that others join you because you think  
> > > free software means only "free as in beer".
> > 
> > i don't.
> > as i hopefully made clear, i think the meaning of "free" (or "free  
> > software") has to be defined before accusing somebody of misuse
> > and that definition was (and is) still lacking.
> > free might be as in "beer" or "speech" or "nothing to do" (and those of us  
> > coming from eg the former communist parts of europe, will remember that  
> > not only the meaning of "free" might differ but even the extend involved),  
> > but that is not clear beforehand and certainly not implicit, even if most  
> > of us tend to think in therms of the GPL.
> 
> Yes free may be interpreted as free of duties (which i belive is what
> you meant with "nothing to do") however interpreteing it as free of
> charge is still not a very good thing cause it breaks the definition
> of free.
> 
> Because free is such a fuzzy word, mainly due to misusage of the word
>  one can use the words libre or gratis to distinguish them.
> 
> Open source is however not the same as FLOSS or Free/Libre Software.
> The Open Source Movement have instead choosen to abandom the ethical
> principle of freedom and only promote the use of Open Source software
> that might not be libre (free as in freedom), which is not the same
> idea as the Free Software movement has. For the Free Software movement
> the idea of Free/Libre Software is that it should be free as in
> freedom. Not just open for anyone to examine as is the case with Open
> Source.
> 
> And mainly because there is such a large movement of Free Software
> (free as in freedom) and the usage of free while in the discussion of
> software the usage of the word free in regards to software
> is in any case but the term "Freeware" analogous with libre software.
> 
> And you know what? Free as used in free of charge often can be
> intepreted as you are free to do whatever you want to do with it, not
> only that it is gratis. If i have a free soda pop for you, then you
> can use it for whatever, even give it away to someone else.. for if i
> attached criterias for why it is gratis then would it still be free?
> 
> Please clean up your own language usage to avoid things like this, it
> is tedious to have to be carefull

Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Neil Jerram
2010/1/5 Viktor Lindberg :
>
> The Open Source Movement have instead choosen to abandom the ethical
> principle of freedom and only promote the use of Open Source software
> that might not be libre (free as in freedom), which is not the same
> idea as the Free Software movement has. [...] Not just open for anyone to 
> examine as is the case with Open
> Source.

FWIW, that is not my understanding.  I believe that the practical
requirements of Open Source and Free Software are mostly identical.
The difference is one of philosophical emphasis: the Open Source
movement chooses to emphasize practical and tangible benefits from
using and working on their projects, whereas the Free Software
movement emphasizes freedom, even if it means working in the short
term with an inferior product.

I hope that's useful to someone (and correct!) ...

Neil

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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Petr Vanek
>/end of arrogant rant about language usage.

this is getting too long for me :)

just download the relevant packages which this thread started about
and read license in there, it might help your understanding :))

cheers

Petr


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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Viktor Lindberg
On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 01:21:50PM +0100, arne anka wrote:
> > the term "free software" was coined in or before 1989, when the GPLv1 was
> > published by the free software foundation [1].
> 
> a) the group "free software" is nothing but a combination of an adjective  
> and a substantive, the adjective qualifying the substantive
> b) qualifying a substantive with "free" has been in use long before the  
> creation of "software"
> c) "free software" is in no way an unique term or used uniquely by the FSF  
> -- the sentence you are quoting very clearly proves that by saying
> ""When we speak of free software"
> ie, the term is used in a certain sense in a certain context (the GPL) --  
> but there's no way, the GPL is globally applicable ot the authors are in  
> any way authorized to rule the use of those very common and widely used  
> words in a very common grammatical construction.
>

Qualifying a substantive with "free" is far older yes, but that is
not a point, nor is a) a point. c) may be a point but they're really
just bringing clearity cause the word is fuzzy.

> 
> to conclude the discussion: sebastian  would be right _only_ if somewhere  
> in the discussion all participants had agreed to put the software in  
> question under the GPL or at least use the GPL's definition.
> i can't recall, that has ever happend -- insofar any claim to use the  
> GPL's definition as the solely applicable one is not justified!

If one is to be used then that one should be used. Ethymologically
that is right, but also the other usage of the word isn't really
widely spread nor accepted by many today, it also makes no sense.

> it is understandable to think in the trems of the GPL but it is not the  
> only way to think.
> thus, if any author claims his/her software to be "free software", he/she  
> is entitled to it -- only if he/she accepted the GPL's definition as the  
> binding definition of the term, his/her software has to meet the  
> requirements laid down in the GPL.

GPL is not the only free license. Furthermore, if you by using the term
"free software" to describe software that is not free but gratis, you
have misused the word haven't you?

> > but arne, whilst i hugely admire your software chops and appreciate the  
> > work you've done,
> 
> i don't know, what exactly you are talking about, but thanks anyway :-)
> 
> > i think you're wrong to insist that others join you because you think  
> > free software means only "free as in beer".
> 
> i don't.
> as i hopefully made clear, i think the meaning of "free" (or "free  
> software") has to be defined before accusing somebody of misuse
> and that definition was (and is) still lacking.
> free might be as in "beer" or "speech" or "nothing to do" (and those of us  
> coming from eg the former communist parts of europe, will remember that  
> not only the meaning of "free" might differ but even the extend involved),  
> but that is not clear beforehand and certainly not implicit, even if most  
> of us tend to think in therms of the GPL.

Yes free may be interpreted as free of duties (which i belive is what
you meant with "nothing to do") however interpreteing it as free of
charge is still not a very good thing cause it breaks the definition
of free.

Because free is such a fuzzy word, mainly due to misusage of the word
 one can use the words libre or gratis to distinguish them.

Open source is however not the same as FLOSS or Free/Libre Software.
The Open Source Movement have instead choosen to abandom the ethical
principle of freedom and only promote the use of Open Source software
that might not be libre (free as in freedom), which is not the same
idea as the Free Software movement has. For the Free Software movement
the idea of Free/Libre Software is that it should be free as in
freedom. Not just open for anyone to examine as is the case with Open
Source.

And mainly because there is such a large movement of Free Software
(free as in freedom) and the usage of free while in the discussion of
software the usage of the word free in regards to software
is in any case but the term "Freeware" analogous with libre software.

And you know what? Free as used in free of charge often can be
intepreted as you are free to do whatever you want to do with it, not
only that it is gratis. If i have a free soda pop for you, then you
can use it for whatever, even give it away to someone else.. for if i
attached criterias for why it is gratis then would it still be free?

Please clean up your own language usage to avoid things like this, it
is tedious to have to be carefull about the word free is applied only
because people do not consider their own language usage or the
consistancy in their language.

/end of arrogant rant about language usage.

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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread arne anka
> the term "free software" was coined in or before 1989, when the GPLv1 was
> published by the free software foundation [1].

a) the group "free software" is nothing but a combination of an adjective  
and a substantive, the adjective qualifying the substantive
b) qualifying a substantive with "free" has been in use long before the  
creation of "software"
c) "free software" is in no way an unique term or used uniquely by the FSF  
-- the sentence you are quoting very clearly proves that by saying
""When we speak of free software"
ie, the term is used in a certain sense in a certain context (the GPL) --  
but there's no way, the GPL is globally applicable ot the authors are in  
any way authorized to rule the use of those very common and widely used  
words in a very common grammatical construction.


to conclude the discussion: sebastian  would be right _only_ if somewhere  
in the discussion all participants had agreed to put the software in  
question under the GPL or at least use the GPL's definition.
i can't recall, that has ever happend -- insofar any claim to use the  
GPL's definition as the solely applicable one is not justified!

it is understandable to think in the trems of the GPL but it is not the  
only way to think.
thus, if any author claims his/her software to be "free software", he/she  
is entitled to it -- only if he/she accepted the GPL's definition as the  
binding definition of the term, his/her software has to meet the  
requirements laid down in the GPL.

> but arne, whilst i hugely admire your software chops and appreciate the  
> work you've done,

i don't know, what exactly you are talking about, but thanks anyway :-)

> i think you're wrong to insist that others join you because you think  
> free software means only "free as in beer".

i don't.
as i hopefully made clear, i think the meaning of "free" (or "free  
software") has to be defined before accusing somebody of misuse
and that definition was (and is) still lacking.
free might be as in "beer" or "speech" or "nothing to do" (and those of us  
coming from eg the former communist parts of europe, will remember that  
not only the meaning of "free" might differ but even the extend involved),  
but that is not clear beforehand and certainly not implicit, even if most  
of us tend to think in therms of the GPL.

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Re: freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread Tom Yates

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, arne anka wrote:

[Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:]

I think you're now confusing free software with freeware. Free
software app has to be open source (but not in opposite way -
 freeware and open source apps not always are free software)


huh? since when and who made that decision? for all i know, the line 
goes between open source and free. open source has not to be free and 
free has not to be open source.


to signify what you have in mind, the term foss was coined. and just the 
need to add "f" signifies that free is not open source per se (and vice 
versa of course).



Remember, in "free software" term free means freedom, not free beer
(as in freeware) :P


that is only _one_ meaning. as human language goes, the very same word 
might have a lot of meanings -- depending on context, speaker, time or 
place.


for the sake of record keeping (and because i think it's an important 
distinction, though i accept that others disagree):


the term "free software" was coined in or before 1989, when the GPLv1 was 
published by the free software foundation [1].  it quite clearly embedded 
the definition of "free" that sebastian refers to when it said:


"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. 
Specifically, the General Public License is designed to make sure that you 
have the freedom to give away or sell copies of free software, that you 
receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the 
software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you 
can do these things. ".


the term "free software" may well have been in use before then, but it was 
set in stone by 1989.


the term "open source" was coined in early 1998 [2], nearly a decade 
later, by a group of people who _inter alia_ objected to the ambiguous 
meaning of "free" in ordinary english.  FLOSS and FOSS were terms coined 
later, off the back of the term "open source".


it's true that english is still ambiguous in its definition of "free", but 
it's not fair to say that "free software" is an ambiguous term.  it has 
been precisely defined for over 20 years, long before the term "open 
source" was coined.  when sebastian speaks of "free software", i think 
he's right to impute the FSF's definition of freedon to it.


please by all means use the terms "open source", FOSS, FLOSS and so on if 
you find they help crystallise your thinking, but arne, whilst i hugely 
admire your software chops and appreciate the work you've done, i think 
you're wrong to insist that others join you because you think free 
software means only "free as in beer".


hopefully i'm not offending anyone by jumping in with a bit of history!


--

  Tom Yates  -  http://www.teaparty.net





[1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-1.0.txt

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source :
"The decision by some people in the free software movement to use the 
label “open source” came out of a strategy session held at Palo Alto, 
California, in reaction to Netscape's January 1998 announcement of a 
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freeware != free software??? Re: Navigation

2010-01-05 Thread arne anka
> I think you're now confusing free software with freeware. Free
> software app has to be open source (but not in opposite way -
>  freeware and open source apps not always are free software)

huh?
since when and who made that decision?
for all i know, the line goes between open source and free.
open source has not to be free and free has not to be open source.

to signify what you have in mind, the term foss was coined. and just the  
need to add "f" signifies that free is not open source per se (and vice  
versa of course).

> Remember, in "free software" term free means freedom, not free beer
> (as in freeware) :P

that is only _one_ meaning.
as human language goes, the very same word might have a lot of meanings --  
depending on context, speaker, time or place.


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Re: Navigation

2010-01-04 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On 1/4/10, Davide Scaini  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Neil Jerram
> wrote:
>
>> 2010/1/4 Yorick Moko :
>> > c'mon,
>> > you know he meant well
>>
>> Yes indeed.  I apologize for raising this issue on Mike's thread; I
>> should have started a new thread and so not have singled out Mike in
>> particular.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Neil
>>
>>
> just my 2c: maybe you confuse free software with open source software and
> viceversa...
> Mike releases his software as free software now... maybe late as an open
> source one.
> But that's not the topic.
> Keep on going guys!
> d
>
>
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>

I think you're now confusing free software with freeware. Free
software app has to be open source (but not in opposite way -
 freeware and open source apps not always are free software)

What he did is freeware. Open source could be when I'd be able to look
at source, and free software would be when I'd be able to do with that
source what I want.

Remember, in "free software" term free means freedom, not free beer
(as in freeware) :P

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
dos

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Re: Navigation

2010-01-04 Thread Davide Scaini
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Neil Jerram wrote:

> 2010/1/4 Yorick Moko :
> > c'mon,
> > you know he meant well
>
> Yes indeed.  I apologize for raising this issue on Mike's thread; I
> should have started a new thread and so not have singled out Mike in
> particular.
>
> Best wishes,
> Neil
>
>
just my 2c: maybe you confuse free software with open source software and
viceversa...
Mike releases his software as free software now... maybe late as an open
source one.
But that's not the topic.
Keep on going guys!
d


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Re: Navigation

2010-01-04 Thread Neil Jerram
2010/1/4 Yorick Moko :
> c'mon,
> you know he meant well

Yes indeed.  I apologize for raising this issue on Mike's thread; I
should have started a new thread and so not have singled out Mike in
particular.

Best wishes,
Neil

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Re: Navigation

2010-01-04 Thread Petr Vanek
hi,

>If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
>http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116
>
>Currently not for usage, only as preview for Debian users.

downloaded the packages on my laptop:

van...@vanek:/tmp$ ./osm2mcmap
bash: ./osm2mcmap: cannot execute binary file

van...@vanek:/tmp$ strace ./osm2mcmap

execve("./osm2mcmap", ["./osm2mcmap"], [/* 38 vars */]) = -1 ENOEXEC
(Exec format error) dup(2)  = 3
fcntl64(3, F_GETFL) = 0x8002 (flags
O_RDWR|O_LARGEFILE) fstat64(3, {st_mode=S_IFCHR|0620,
st_rdev=makedev(136, 3), ...}) = 0 mmap2(NULL, 4096,
PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 0xb803e000
_llseek(3, 0, 0xbfb4d7d0, SEEK_CUR) = -1 ESPIPE (Illegal seek)
write(3, "strace: exec: Exec format error\n", 32strace: exec: Exec
format error ) = 32 close(3)= 0
munmap(0xb803e000, 4096)= 0
exit_group(1)   = ?


i get the same with the mcnavi

i get mcnavi trying to run on latest shr-u, but as i cannot convert
the map, i get:

# ./mcnavi
Cannot open map

sources would help to get the converter running...

cheers

Petr



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Re: Navigation

2010-01-04 Thread Yorick Moko
c'mon,
you know he meant well

I can only applaud new pieces of software for our freerunners, so keep up
the good work
I personally think it's entirely up to you to release or not release the
source files (afterall, you could also  make a programme people have to pay
for)
but it might be interesting for both you and the community;
maybe someone has a good idea or a suggestion to make?
maybe someone will propose a patch?
anyway, it's still up to you (imho)

just have fun!

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Mike Crash  wrote:

>
> This means that it is preview and not releasable yet. I know what it free
> software - but it is up to author, when he makes releases. And if he makes
> it at all. This is only to know, that it is not sleeping.
>
> So please don't be fidgety - I have spent on this 7 months, every day 2-3
> hours, many times to late night (to 2 am) and I can thank god I have so
> lovely family to allow that. This is true for other my projects too. Why
> don't I buy navigation for 200 bucks instead of spending my rare time that
> would cost by the way my employer thousands? With no donations and no
> gratitude. Anyway, I should slow down...
>
>
>
> Neil Jerram wrote:
> >
> > 2010/1/3 Mike Crash :
> >>
> >> Happy new year everyone!
> >>
> >> If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
> >> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116
> >
> > This is nice news, but what is it with the "sorry, no source code yet"
> > thing?
> >
> > Mike, I don't actually mean to complain at you in particular.  It
> > seems to me that a lot of people write something like that, especially
> > with their early releases.  I just don't understand why, and I'm
> > afraid that your post has pushed me over the edge into saying
> > something about it.  Do people not know what Free Software means?
> >
> > (Plus it's not hard to find a way of hosting source code...)
> >
> > Regards,
> >Neil
> >
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Re: Navigation

2010-01-03 Thread Neil Jerram
2010/1/3 Mike Crash :
>
> This means that it is preview and not releasable yet.

This makes no sense.  How can the binary be releasable, but the source code not?

> I know what it free
> software - but it is up to author, when he makes releases. And if he makes
> it at all.

I agree that it is completely your choice when, whether and what to
release.  But you should not claim that your project is free software
if you do not release the source code.

To be fair, I don't know if you _have_ ever claimed that your project
is free software.  I basically just assume that everyone on this list
is intending to follow the conventions of free software - perhaps
that's a bad assumption on my part.

> This is only to know, that it is not sleeping.

That is appreciated, thanks!

> So please don't be fidgety - I have spent on this 7 months, every day 2-3
> hours, many times to late night (to 2 am) and I can thank god I have so
> lovely family to allow that. This is true for other my projects too. Why
> don't I buy navigation for 200 bucks instead of spending my rare time that
> would cost by the way my employer thousands?

Understood; I think we all know these feelings...  Personally I'm
afraid I can no longer manage to work at that kind of intensity, but I
fondly remember the days when I could and did.

And, I really believe that releasing the source code could help you
and your project!

> With no donations and no
> gratitude.

Those are bad reasons for working on free software, of course, but I
would guess that you didn't really mean them...?

> Anyway, I should slow down...

Not because of my comment, I hope!

Best wishes,
 Neil

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Re: Navigation

2010-01-03 Thread Mike Crash

This means that it is preview and not releasable yet. I know what it free
software - but it is up to author, when he makes releases. And if he makes
it at all. This is only to know, that it is not sleeping.

So please don't be fidgety - I have spent on this 7 months, every day 2-3
hours, many times to late night (to 2 am) and I can thank god I have so
lovely family to allow that. This is true for other my projects too. Why
don't I buy navigation for 200 bucks instead of spending my rare time that
would cost by the way my employer thousands? With no donations and no
gratitude. Anyway, I should slow down...



Neil Jerram wrote:
> 
> 2010/1/3 Mike Crash :
>>
>> Happy new year everyone!
>>
>> If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
>> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116
> 
> This is nice news, but what is it with the "sorry, no source code yet"
> thing?
> 
> Mike, I don't actually mean to complain at you in particular.  It
> seems to me that a lot of people write something like that, especially
> with their early releases.  I just don't understand why, and I'm
> afraid that your post has pushed me over the edge into saying
> something about it.  Do people not know what Free Software means?
> 
> (Plus it's not hard to find a way of hosting source code...)
> 
> Regards,
>Neil
> 
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Re: Navigation

2010-01-03 Thread Neil Jerram
2010/1/3 Mike Crash :
>
> Happy new year everyone!
>
> If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116

This is nice news, but what is it with the "sorry, no source code yet" thing?

Mike, I don't actually mean to complain at you in particular.  It
seems to me that a lot of people write something like that, especially
with their early releases.  I just don't understand why, and I'm
afraid that your post has pushed me over the edge into saying
something about it.  Do people not know what Free Software means?

(Plus it's not hard to find a way of hosting source code...)

Regards,
   Neil

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Re: Navigation

2010-01-03 Thread Davide Scaini
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Mike Crash  wrote:

>
> Happy new year everyone!
>
> If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116
>
> Currently not for usage, only as preview for Debian users.
>
>
> Mike Crash wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
> > navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may change.
> > Screenshots here:
> >
> > http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=115
> >
> >
>
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don't stop it now ;-)
great to have choice... is it faster than navit (even if buggy but just to
know)?
d
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Re: Navigation

2010-01-03 Thread Mike Crash

Happy new year everyone!

If you want to look at progress, here is first version of MC Navi:
http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=116

Currently not for usage, only as preview for Debian users.


Mike Crash wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
> navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may change.
> Screenshots here:
> 
> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=115
> 
> 

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-15 Thread Mike Crash

This is not a good idea. Rendering such amount of data will take a (long)
while, also there si problem where to save it (little memory and slow card),
also you need any map angle at any time. And rendering speed is not a big
problem, it seems to work fine (or at least satisfactorily).


Yorick Moko wrote:
> 
> might be an idea worth considering:
> 
> have the possibility to calculate a route, and pre-render the bitmaps of
> your route (at a few zoom-levels)
> This way it doesn't have to be done on the fly when you know for example
> where you are going to travel to
> when you don't follow the planned route it will of course render new files
> when nescessary
> 
> you should also have the option to delete them afterwards of course
> 
> or maybe a setting "two way trip";
> this setting wil save all the rendered files on your way to your
> destination,
> use the pre-rendered images on your way back, and ask you if you want to
> delete them when you return home
> 
> 
> just an idea
> 
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mike Crash  wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sure I'm using speed data from OSM and if not available, set it based on
>> way
>> type and common speeds. I can find shortest and fastest path. No
>> detection
>> if road is in the city yet.
>>
>> I made some progress in last days and I'm going to use it for the first
>> time
>> to drive home today :)
>>
>>
>> Bastian Muck wrote:
>> >
>> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > Mike Crash schrieb:
>> >> I use A* for routing, it is usable, but still not what I expect.
>> >> But I have some improvements in my mind :) I need to create
>> >> rerouting now and to test it in real life
>> >
>> > I don't have any idea, how the code looks like, but I guess, that you
>> > use gps-positions as heuristic and distances as edge-weights. That
>> > means that you always get the shortest path. If you want  to get the
>> > fastes path, then you have to use timevalues calculated by possible
>> > speed and edge-length. With openstreetmaps that can be difficult,
>> > because many roads don't have any speedsproperties. You often only can
>> > use the roadtype depending on country to guess the speed.
>> > Maybe you used this, but in a first shit, I guess that you don't.
>> >
>> > I hope these ideas can help you improving your tool.
>> >
>> > Greetings Bastian
>> >
>> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
>> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>> >
>> > iD8DBQFLI6B6lYiDScJJ+7QRAugfAKD4cLPiucAwIP2eXajmSlMdRSyKxQCg3q6D
>> > bChe84DmVlpTa9dx4dBzE2o=
>> > =II9r
>> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>>
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-14 Thread Yorick Moko
might be an idea worth considering:

have the possibility to calculate a route, and pre-render the bitmaps of
your route (at a few zoom-levels)
This way it doesn't have to be done on the fly when you know for example
where you are going to travel to
when you don't follow the planned route it will of course render new files
when nescessary

you should also have the option to delete them afterwards of course

or maybe a setting "two way trip";
this setting wil save all the rendered files on your way to your
destination,
use the pre-rendered images on your way back, and ask you if you want to
delete them when you return home


just an idea

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mike Crash  wrote:

>
> Sure I'm using speed data from OSM and if not available, set it based on
> way
> type and common speeds. I can find shortest and fastest path. No detection
> if road is in the city yet.
>
> I made some progress in last days and I'm going to use it for the first
> time
> to drive home today :)
>
>
> Bastian Muck wrote:
> >
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Mike Crash schrieb:
> >> I use A* for routing, it is usable, but still not what I expect.
> >> But I have some improvements in my mind :) I need to create
> >> rerouting now and to test it in real life
> >
> > I don't have any idea, how the code looks like, but I guess, that you
> > use gps-positions as heuristic and distances as edge-weights. That
> > means that you always get the shortest path. If you want  to get the
> > fastes path, then you have to use timevalues calculated by possible
> > speed and edge-length. With openstreetmaps that can be difficult,
> > because many roads don't have any speedsproperties. You often only can
> > use the roadtype depending on country to guess the speed.
> > Maybe you used this, but in a first shit, I guess that you don't.
> >
> > I hope these ideas can help you improving your tool.
> >
> > Greetings Bastian
> >
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> >
> > iD8DBQFLI6B6lYiDScJJ+7QRAugfAKD4cLPiucAwIP2eXajmSlMdRSyKxQCg3q6D
> > bChe84DmVlpTa9dx4dBzE2o=
> > =II9r
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
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> >
> >
>
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-14 Thread Mike Crash

Sure I'm using speed data from OSM and if not available, set it based on way
type and common speeds. I can find shortest and fastest path. No detection
if road is in the city yet.

I made some progress in last days and I'm going to use it for the first time
to drive home today :)


Bastian Muck wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>  
> Mike Crash schrieb:
>> I use A* for routing, it is usable, but still not what I expect.
>> But I have some improvements in my mind :) I need to create
>> rerouting now and to test it in real life
> 
> I don't have any idea, how the code looks like, but I guess, that you
> use gps-positions as heuristic and distances as edge-weights. That
> means that you always get the shortest path. If you want  to get the
> fastes path, then you have to use timevalues calculated by possible
> speed and edge-length. With openstreetmaps that can be difficult,
> because many roads don't have any speedsproperties. You often only can
> use the roadtype depending on country to guess the speed.
> Maybe you used this, but in a first shit, I guess that you don't.
> 
> I hope these ideas can help you improving your tool.
> 
> Greetings Bastian
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>  
> iD8DBQFLI6B6lYiDScJJ+7QRAugfAKD4cLPiucAwIP2eXajmSlMdRSyKxQCg3q6D
> bChe84DmVlpTa9dx4dBzE2o=
> =II9r
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-12 Thread Bastian Muck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
Mike Crash schrieb:
> I use A* for routing, it is usable, but still not what I expect.
> But I have some improvements in my mind :) I need to create
> rerouting now and to test it in real life

I don't have any idea, how the code looks like, but I guess, that you
use gps-positions as heuristic and distances as edge-weights. That
means that you always get the shortest path. If you want  to get the
fastes path, then you have to use timevalues calculated by possible
speed and edge-length. With openstreetmaps that can be difficult,
because many roads don't have any speedsproperties. You often only can
use the roadtype depending on country to guess the speed.
Maybe you used this, but in a first shit, I guess that you don't.

I hope these ideas can help you improving your tool.

Greetings Bastian

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
iD8DBQFLI6B6lYiDScJJ+7QRAugfAKD4cLPiucAwIP2eXajmSlMdRSyKxQCg3q6D
bChe84DmVlpTa9dx4dBzE2o=
=II9r
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Mike Crash

I use A* for routing, it is usable, but still not what I expect. But I have
some improvements in my mind :) I need to create rerouting now and to test
it in real life

Someone asked why not to improve navit - this was my first shot. But ... I
found it a little complicated, it needs some parts totally to rewrite and
also I like control of the source code, not to depend on someone else. Also
I write it very different and plan to replace not only navit, but also
create outdoor navigation with tourist marks, cycle routes and contours, but
it is far future

It needs also more optimisations to map render, to map format, to GUI etc...
ohh and it uses binary format of cause



Bastian Muck wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>  
> Hello Mike,
> 
> which alorithm do you use? A* or just the slow Dijkstra as Navit does?
> 
> Greetings Bastian
> 
> Mike Crash schrieb:
>> Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
>>  navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may
>> change. Screenshots here:
>>
>> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=115
>>
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>  
> iD8DBQFLISuQlYiDScJJ+7QRAkfAAKCZCZ4/OoY1WcpBJEfutObgsC4uJQCgw3xm
> SjFHAVO9spVuNXfCf3O71gY=
> =dG4Z
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Bastian Muck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
Hello Mike,

which alorithm do you use? A* or just the slow Dijkstra as Navit does?

Greetings Bastian

Mike Crash schrieb:
> Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
>  navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may
> change. Screenshots here:
>
> http://www.mikecrash.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&id=115
>

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
iD8DBQFLISuQlYiDScJJ+7QRAkfAAKCZCZ4/OoY1WcpBJEfutObgsC4uJQCgw3xm
SjFHAVO9spVuNXfCf3O71gY=
=dG4Z
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Marcus Bauer
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:03:01 +0100
Fox Mulder  wrote:

> So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
> allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit
> does which is way better for this purpose.

Yes, and the earth is flat too ;-)

As it was already pointed out in this thread navit uses vector data and
tangogps uses bitmap data.

Vector data allows for calculation of a route. As long as you use only
very basic data it is more space efficient. If you add terrain data
like opencyclemap[1] or maps-for-free[2] then you have quickly many
times more data and on-the-fly rendering on an embedded device becomes
impossible. 

Using bitmap data means it is fast because you only need to display data
while a fast computer has been doing a nice rendering.

Another example: in Italy there is currently the import of houses going
on, i.e. you get a good idea of the streets with the bitmaps while you
get emptiness with the vector data[3].

tangogps is far superior in speed, quality of maps and choice of maps.
However in-car navigation is currently not its purpose. But for hiking
or cycling it offers much better map data.

Marcus

[1]http://opencyclemap.org/?zoom=13&lat=47.46438&lon=9.55192&layers=B000
[2]http://maps-for-free.com
[3]http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.07332&lon=13.23026&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF


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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Nicola Mfb
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Christophe M  wrote:
[...]
> Personnaly I don't find it redundant.
> - If you use a 2D map, it's easier to draw a bitmap rather than a vector. It
> consume less cpu so less battery. Due to my experience, I find navit really
> slower than tangogps
> - There is more maps in bitmaps than in vector format, I think about
> google's ones, I'm using thats maps but I would appreciate routing, with a
> combination of bitmap and vector you can see the map in png and get routing
> informations from vector one, less cpu, advantage of both vector and
> bitmaps. You can even show the calculated itinary on top of the bitmap ...

There is another big advantage using the vector format, you may decide
what and when rendering of the available data, may change colors,
rendering styles, etc. all in real time.
With the tile approach you'll have get a fixed set of features with a
fixed style that may not match your needs.

With vectorial data you may merge several layers togheter in a easy
way, (no multiple file for a tile, no alpha blending etc.)
Finally, a full featured osm navigation system may use osm api to
update easily data for a region with a minimal use of bandwidth.

As suggested the right way may be to cache autorendered tiles to a
smart cache, the renderer engine may precompute near tiles while
moving in a separate thread and the traditional tile way may be used
for terrain, sat, or if really necessary to show other map tiled map
sources.

m2c

 Niko

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Christophe M
>
>
> If you already have the vector data you doesn't need the bitmap data
> anymore because you can render the displayed map directly from these
> data. That is what navit already does and therefor a combination of
> vector and bitmap data makes no sense. It would make the data redundant
> and more complicated.
>

Personnaly I don't find it redundant.
- If you use a 2D map, it's easier to draw a bitmap rather than a vector. It
consume less cpu so less battery. Due to my experience, I find navit really
slower than tangogps
- There is more maps in bitmaps than in vector format, I think about
google's ones, I'm using thats maps but I would appreciate routing, with a
combination of bitmap and vector you can see the map in png and get routing
informations from vector one, less cpu, advantage of both vector and
bitmaps. You can even show the calculated itinary on top of the bitmap ...


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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread arne anka
> If you already have the vector data you doesn't need the bitmap data
> anymore because you can render the displayed map directly from these
> data. That is what navit already does and therefor a combination of
> vector and bitmap data makes no sense. It would make the data redundant
> and more complicated.

it would decrease cpu usage for those areas already in png.
i don't know how exactly navit renders, but i got the impression, reading  
and displaying vector data answers for a good deal of delay.

of course one could take the already rendered map and store it as tiles in  
a cache, with an intelligent caching policy one may be able to limit the  
space necessary.
but then again: how many people need these tiles again? and is the  
rendering really the culprit for the notable delay?

but that's only a theoretical question -- the immense need of space make  
tangogpos more ore less useless for me. i don't like the idea of  
downloading a mass of tiles for  arther limited area.
with navit's maps i get all of europe in less than tangogps needs for the  
greater hamburg area ...

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread David Reyes Samblas Martinez
2009/12/10 Fox Mulder :
> Neil Jerram wrote:
>> 2009/12/10 Fox Mulder :
>>> Neil Jerram wrote:
 2009/12/9 arne anka :
> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
>  from navit?
> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
> it and add a new efl based interface?
 Good question.

 For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
 with tangogps.  So:

 - if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
 it to use the same maps as tangogps

 - if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
 the same maps as tangogps.
>>> I don't think that this would be a good choice at all.
>>> Tangogps uses png pictures with no routing information within these
>>> files. For a navigation application you need vector images to determine
>>> the path for routing. And the data for maybe a whole country in png and
>>> for all zoom levels would be a few gigabyte with tens of thousands of
>>> files. Compared to the vector format navit uses which is only a few
>>> hundred megabytes in one file. And it could be rendered in all zoom
>>> levels because it is in vector format.
>>> So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
>>> allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit does
>>> which is way better for this purpose.
>>
>> Thanks for following up and explaining this; what you say makes sense.
>>  I suppose I was representing the non-technical point of view: "I've
>> already downloaded a pile of map data once, why should I need to
>> install or download it again?"  I can see now why navit can't use only
>> tangogps's bitmap data.
>>
>> But I would guess that a combination could work well: bitmap data for
>> display, plus vector data for routing.  The bitmap data could be
>> shared.  It would take a lot of space per tile, but would only be
>> needed for places visited and zoom levels used.  The vector data would
>> be needed over a much larger area, but would take much less space per
>> square kilometer.
>>
>> I guess the problem then would be ensuring consistency between the
>> vector and bitmap data...
>
> If you already have the vector data you doesn't need the bitmap data
> anymore because you can render the displayed map directly from these
> data. That is what navit already does and therefor a combination of
> vector and bitmap data makes no sense. It would make the data redundant
> and more complicated.
>
> Ciao,
>     Rainer

I find very useful to have a mixture of vectorial and bitmap not to
load the same data but  other data like sat pictures,  geological
data, or historical ones etc etc.
David Reyes Samblas Martinez
http://www.tuxbrain.com
Open ultraportable & embedded solutions
Openmoko, Openpandora,  Arduino
Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!


>
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-10 Thread Fox Mulder
Neil Jerram wrote:
> 2009/12/10 Fox Mulder :
>> Neil Jerram wrote:
>>> 2009/12/9 arne anka :
 not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
  from navit?
 would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
 it and add a new efl based interface?
>>> Good question.
>>>
>>> For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
>>> with tangogps.  So:
>>>
>>> - if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
>>> it to use the same maps as tangogps
>>>
>>> - if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
>>> the same maps as tangogps.
>> I don't think that this would be a good choice at all.
>> Tangogps uses png pictures with no routing information within these
>> files. For a navigation application you need vector images to determine
>> the path for routing. And the data for maybe a whole country in png and
>> for all zoom levels would be a few gigabyte with tens of thousands of
>> files. Compared to the vector format navit uses which is only a few
>> hundred megabytes in one file. And it could be rendered in all zoom
>> levels because it is in vector format.
>> So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
>> allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit does
>> which is way better for this purpose.
> 
> Thanks for following up and explaining this; what you say makes sense.
>  I suppose I was representing the non-technical point of view: "I've
> already downloaded a pile of map data once, why should I need to
> install or download it again?"  I can see now why navit can't use only
> tangogps's bitmap data.
> 
> But I would guess that a combination could work well: bitmap data for
> display, plus vector data for routing.  The bitmap data could be
> shared.  It would take a lot of space per tile, but would only be
> needed for places visited and zoom levels used.  The vector data would
> be needed over a much larger area, but would take much less space per
> square kilometer.
> 
> I guess the problem then would be ensuring consistency between the
> vector and bitmap data...

If you already have the vector data you doesn't need the bitmap data
anymore because you can render the displayed map directly from these
data. That is what navit already does and therefor a combination of
vector and bitmap data makes no sense. It would make the data redundant
and more complicated.

Ciao,
 Rainer

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Sebastian Reichel
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:19:59AM +, Neil Jerram wrote:
> 2009/12/10 Fox Mulder :
> > Neil Jerram wrote:
> >> 2009/12/9 arne anka :
> >>> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
> >>>  from navit?
> >>> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
> >>> it and add a new efl based interface?
> >>
> >> Good question.
> >>
> >> For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
> >> with tangogps.  So:
> >>
> >> - if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
> >> it to use the same maps as tangogps
> >>
> >> - if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
> >> the same maps as tangogps.
> >
> > I don't think that this would be a good choice at all.
> > Tangogps uses png pictures with no routing information within these
> > files. For a navigation application you need vector images to determine
> > the path for routing. And the data for maybe a whole country in png and
> > for all zoom levels would be a few gigabyte with tens of thousands of
> > files. Compared to the vector format navit uses which is only a few
> > hundred megabytes in one file. And it could be rendered in all zoom
> > levels because it is in vector format.
> > So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
> > allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit does
> > which is way better for this purpose.
> 
> Thanks for following up and explaining this; what you say makes sense.
>  I suppose I was representing the non-technical point of view: "I've
> already downloaded a pile of map data once, why should I need to
> install or download it again?"  I can see now why navit can't use only
> tangogps's bitmap data.
> 
> But I would guess that a combination could work well: bitmap data for
> display, plus vector data for routing.  The bitmap data could be
> shared.  It would take a lot of space per tile, but would only be
> needed for places visited and zoom levels used.  The vector data would
> be needed over a much larger area, but would take much less space per
> square kilometer.
> 
> I guess the problem then would be ensuring consistency between the
> vector and bitmap data...

You may be interested in this Google Summer of Code project:

http://foregroundnoise.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/gsoc-09-final-report/

-- Sebastian


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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Neil Jerram
2009/12/10 Fox Mulder :
> Neil Jerram wrote:
>> 2009/12/9 arne anka :
>>> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
>>>  from navit?
>>> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
>>> it and add a new efl based interface?
>>
>> Good question.
>>
>> For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
>> with tangogps.  So:
>>
>> - if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
>> it to use the same maps as tangogps
>>
>> - if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
>> the same maps as tangogps.
>
> I don't think that this would be a good choice at all.
> Tangogps uses png pictures with no routing information within these
> files. For a navigation application you need vector images to determine
> the path for routing. And the data for maybe a whole country in png and
> for all zoom levels would be a few gigabyte with tens of thousands of
> files. Compared to the vector format navit uses which is only a few
> hundred megabytes in one file. And it could be rendered in all zoom
> levels because it is in vector format.
> So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
> allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit does
> which is way better for this purpose.

Thanks for following up and explaining this; what you say makes sense.
 I suppose I was representing the non-technical point of view: "I've
already downloaded a pile of map data once, why should I need to
install or download it again?"  I can see now why navit can't use only
tangogps's bitmap data.

But I would guess that a combination could work well: bitmap data for
display, plus vector data for routing.  The bitmap data could be
shared.  It would take a lot of space per tile, but would only be
needed for places visited and zoom levels used.  The vector data would
be needed over a much larger area, but would take much less space per
square kilometer.

I guess the problem then would be ensuring consistency between the
vector and bitmap data...

Regards,
Neil

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Fox Mulder
Neil Jerram wrote:
> 2009/12/9 arne anka :
>> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
>>  from navit?
>> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
>> it and add a new efl based interface?
> 
> Good question.
> 
> For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
> with tangogps.  So:
> 
> - if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
> it to use the same maps as tangogps
> 
> - if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
> the same maps as tangogps.

I don't think that this would be a good choice at all.
Tangogps uses png pictures with no routing information within these
files. For a navigation application you need vector images to determine
the path for routing. And the data for maybe a whole country in png and
for all zoom levels would be a few gigabyte with tens of thousands of
files. Compared to the vector format navit uses which is only a few
hundred megabytes in one file. And it could be rendered in all zoom
levels because it is in vector format.
So if something should be changed, than it should be tangogps and
allother apps that uses png files to use a vector format like navit does
which is way better for this purpose.

Ciao,
 Rainer



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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Neil Jerram
2009/12/9 arne anka :
> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
>  from navit?
> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
> it and add a new efl based interface?

Good question.

For me the frustrating thing about navit is that it doesn't share maps
with tangogps.  So:

- if you do consider helping navit instead, please consider enhancing
it to use the same maps as tangogps

- if you continue with your own project, please consider making it use
the same maps as tangogps.

Thanks!
 Neil

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Risto H. Kurppa
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:05 PM, arne anka  wrote:
> not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different
>  from navit?
> would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving
> it and add a new efl based interface?
>

Looks very nice!

I wish it'll create some competition to boost Navit development, or
something like that :)


r


-- 
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| risto at kurppa dot fi
| http://risto.kurppa.fi

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread arne anka
not to belittle the effort -- but in what respect will it be different  
 from navit?
would it be worth a consideration to use navit's engine, maybe improving  
it and add a new efl based interface?

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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Steven Le Roux
yeah ! great !

what is the map source used to route ? an osm file ? or do you use a
binary-optimised one ?

Anyway, so glad you did it in EFL :)


On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Patryk Benderz wrote:

> Dnia 2009-12-09, śro o godzinie 11:02 -0800, Mike Crash pisze:
> > Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
> > navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may change.
> Great! Looks nice :) Right on time to todays CU release. Lets put it to
> Community section until you release stable application.
>
> --
> Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
> Linux Registered User #377521
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>
>
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Re: Navigation

2009-12-09 Thread Patryk Benderz
Dnia 2009-12-09, śro o godzinie 11:02 -0800, Mike Crash pisze:
> Hello everyone, I only want to inform you, that I am working on new
> navigation for the Freerunner, current name is MC Navi, but may change.
Great! Looks nice :) Right on time to todays CU release. Lets put it to
Community section until you release stable application.

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Re: Navigation Bar modified notification

2008-08-26 Thread Minh Ha Duong
Hi,

  I think it's a good idea to have such a link.

  I suggest deleting "community" in front of "Applications", otherwise there 
is a repetition.

  The page is a list, so it may be a good idea to have "List of " in the page 
name. And it is not all applications, so try "List of selected 
community-developped applications" as a page name.

  The page should link not only to the "projects" repository, but also to the 
other "list of applications" floating around in the wiki and on the net 
(including those by Openmoko).

Yours,
Minh
--
Le mardi 26 août 2008, BrendaWang a écrit :
> Dear all:
> I put the Openmoko community application on the "community " navigation
> Bar.
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Community_Applications
> Feel free to let me know if you like it , or not.
>
> Brenda
>
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