Many Faces does this.
This is kind of interesting. Is anybody measuring their playout
performance in real-time at the moment and performing this sort of
computation, to check if overtaking the leading move is mathematically
impossible?
Christian
Don Dailey wrote:
2009/6/6
It seems that it would be better to always expand after one visit, and prune
nodes with less than N visits, than to only expand after N visits.
I expand after every visit and prune nodes with few visits when I need to.
Davdi
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org
I planned to enter this one, but I was busy, then overslept and it was
already going when I got to my computer.
I prefer full size boards, since that's a more difficult problem, and games
at 19x19 give me more to work with. Short time limits are fine. Perhaps
19x19 with 15 or 20 minutes each?
To: Computer Go
Subject: [computer-go] Liberties in Many Faces
On April 6, David Fotland wrote:
In Many Faces' playouts I don't keep arrays of liberties. I just
keep the counts. In the older program I keep linked lists of
liberties.
On April 7 he elaborated:
Yes, I walk both
I agree with Don.
On 19x19 it is much less critical to put a lot of time up front, since there
are many moves in most positions with nearly equal value. 9x9 games can
easily be lost in the first 5 moves, so up front time or a good book are
critical. On 19x19 it's important to spend a lot
as appointing the accused criminal as his own judge and jury: don't
expect many convictions.
-- Allen Thornton, Laws of the Jungle
_
From: David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:46:45 PM
Subject: RE
The last moves in the PV are usually quite weak. They don’t get a lot of
playouts.
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Darren Cook
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:39 PM
To: computer-go
Subject:
Many Faces' static move generator suggests F1 as the first move to try.
Still it needs about 35K playouts before F1 is preferred. For some unknown
reason it likes H1 before that. F1 at 35K playouts has a pretty low win
rate, about 35%, because the playouts can't figure out the semeai. It needs
Are you not using rave? If you keep rave counters for each legal move in
the node it should be much bigger than this.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
Sent: Thursday, May
Congratulations to Fuego, Mogo, and Yogo. It's a tremendous accomplishment
for an open source program to win the championship.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Rémi Coulom
Sent: Wednesday,
I think all uct/mc programs will have this problem unless they add something
extra to avoid it. During playouts using random moves the playouts will
think that the ladder usually works. Local 3x3 patterns aren't enough since
they can't tell the difference between ladders that work and ladders
-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Mark Boon
David Fotland said he has a low probability on capture, but I don't
think he ever gave specific numbers.
Mark
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Many faces will show group status, but with letters on the stones, not
colors.
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:04 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Roadmap 2020 -
For example1, Many Faces' Game Score Graph shows the fight is over around
move 208.
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:27 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Roadmap 2020
Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Lukasz Lew
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:32 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Pseudo liberties: Detect 2 unique liberties?
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 07:40, David
In Many Faces' playouts I don't keep arrays of liberties. I just keep the
counts. In the older program I keep linked lists of liberties.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of w...@swcp.com
Sent:
Many Faces also counts real liberties, and is quite fast enough.
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Mark Boon
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:04 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go]
to David Fotland and Many Faces
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Andy andy.olsen...@gmail.com wrote:
See attached a copy of the .sgf. It was played private on KGS so you
can't get it there directly. One of the admins cloned it and I saved
it off locally.
I changed the result to be B
It is very clear that nonuniform random playouts is a far better evaluator
than any reasonable static evaluation, given the same amount of time. Many
people (including myself) spent decades creating static evaluations, using
many techniques, and the best ones ended up with similar strength
Many Faces of Go has a static position evaluator, but it's not spaghetti :)
It makes many passes over the board building up higher level features from
lower level ones, and it does local lookahead as part of feature evaluation,
so it has a lot of code, and is fairly slow.
David
-Original
It's not true that MCTS only goes a few ply. In 19x19 games on 32 CPU
cores, searching about 3 million play outs per move, Many Faces of Go
typically goes over 15 ply in the PV in the UCT tree.
I agree that it is much easier to reliably prune bad moves in go than it is
in chess.
Many Faces (pre
One way to figure out how good your static evaluator is, is to have it do a
one ply search, evaluate, and display the top 20 or so evaluations on a go
board. Ask a strong player to go through a pro game, showing your
evaluations at each move. He can tell you pretty quickly how bad your
evaluator
Many Faces uses information from the static evaluator to order and prune
moves during move generation. For example if the evaluation finds a big
unsettled group, the move generator will favor eye making or escaping moves
for the big group.
David
-Original Message-
From:
Self play results are much better than play against another opponent (since
the faster version sees everything the slower one does, plus more). At
stronger levels, the win rate for a stone difference is higher. Pure
computer power increase will take much longer than your estimate. On the
other
What do you mean by operator at remote end? In my case, the program was
running on a cluster at Microsoft in some computer data center. There was
no operator at Microsoft. The cluster was operated from Beijing through a
remote desktop. The operator was at the contest site.
David
This is what I do in Many Faces, and score seki Japanese style at the end.
David
Other than that, I'd take a different approach:
- play out as usual. Instead of counting stones + eyes on the board,
you count eyes + prisoners + nr-opponent's passes during playout.
- don't count passes
A big multicore program cant repeat the move. Timing differences between
nodes and communication delays can make it nondeterministic. For any
program, keeping data from prior searches makes it hard to do a new search
in isolation and get the same result. If random seeds are not kept for each
, 2009 2:05 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] MC and Japanese rules
David Fotland a écrit :
This is what I do in Many Faces, and score seki Japanese style at the
end.
David
Other than that, I'd take a different approach:
- play out as usual. Instead of counting stones
I'm in favor of starting rounds on time, with remote machines either getting
a time penalty or playing locally (their choice). The clock should run for
the remote machine as soon as the round is scheduled to start. Once a round
is started the remote program cannot switch. For example if it
I like having something mandatory, so we dont need to ask for it. Many
Faces did not have this, because the backend and the GUI only communicated
moves. But the backend was creating a log file and it would be easy to
display the log with regular updates in a different window.
To prevent
I think any requirement to show thinking in real time must apply to all
programs equally. Otherwise some programs are at a disadvantage because they
have to code a thinking display instead of making the program stronger.
David
-Original Message-
From:
I think it is too expensive to read ladders during playouts. I remember
that you have faster ladders search code so it might not cost you as much.
My playout code has no ability to undo a move or do any kind of lookahead.
David
Some examples: David Fotland wrote he does light playouts
There have been several hundred thousand Igowin downloads, so many
westerners have been exposed to the game.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of George Dahl
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009
Bridge is also far more popular than chess in the USA.
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Mark Boon
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:07 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on
Thanks for the links.
I'm surprised that there was a rank 3-4 game between Many faces and
Katsunari, but there was not a rank 2-3 game between Many Faces and Fudogo.
Since Many Faces and Fudogo both only lost to Crazystone, I think it would
be interesting to see how they would do against each
I do something similar to this in Many Faces.
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:47 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: [computer-go] 19x19 results (so far)
19x19
Many Faces of go uses alpha-beta full board search with null move for the
levels that dont use monte carlo search. Monte carlo search is used in the
2 kyu level. Alpha beta is used by 4 kyu to 9 kyu. The weaker levels just
do a single ply search.
Null move helps, but I never tested how much
Subject: Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
David Fotland wrote:
Congratulations to Remi for Crazystone's second UEC cup victory, and
solid
win over a professional.
David
Thank you David.
For some reason, games between Crazy Stone and MFG are always
complicated
One of my customers tried a tournament between Many Faces and Go++ 7.0, one
of the strongest traditional programs.
He says:
Good news first: after 30 games MFGo12 (32min) vs. Go++7.0 (level 5)
your program showed to be much stronger even on my slow PC - result so far
would be 22 - 8 !
David
...@ybb.ne.jp
wrote:
David Fotland: 00ca01c95fa2$5ee6bb50$1cb431...@com:
Is it true that the final was a single elimination tournament, and not a
Swiss tournament? It seems that Many Faces never played Fudo Go. In
future
tournaments, please consider using the Swiss tournament system. Most
I see AI Igo was one of the prizes. If it was the new AI Igo 17, it has the
Monte Carlo engine.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Hiroshi Yamashita
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:27 PM
Thank you for the results. Thank you for providing a machine and letting
Many Faces participate, even though I could not travel to Japan.
Is it true that the final was a single elimination tournament, and not a
Swiss tournament? It seems that Many Faces never played Fudo Go. In future
It should make almost no difference, since on odd sized boards with area
counting the game result will be the same unless there is a seki with an odd
number of shared liberties. This kind of seki is rare. I'd guess less than
one in a hundred games ends with such a seki on the board. AGA rules
When White is the first player to pass than komi is changed
from 6.5 to 7.5 .
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:02 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
It should make almost no difference, since on odd sized boards with area
counting the game result will be the same unless there is a seki
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Goetze
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:15 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
David Fotland wrote:
AGA rules also have the effect of changing
No, I wouldn't say that :) Read what I wrote...
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Goetze
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:05 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
David Fotland
Traffic to my site and igowin downloads jumped 20% yesterday, so the show did
generate some interest in go.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of grok
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:19 PM
To: computer-go
Subject:
I see about 100 downloads of Igowin for every purchase of Many Faces, so it
is certainly true that free is far, far more popular than not-free.
David
However, I would say to developers to not worry too much about a
seemingly high rate of piracy. Most software pirates are those who would
not
is an effective
marketing strategy, even if I'm too cheap :)
I've always wondered if we'll see igowin on CGOS or as a competitor in
the open division KGS tournament
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 22, 2008, at 2:20 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I see about 100 downloads
I've sold 3 copies of Many Faces of Go in China, but when I travel to China
I check in computer stores, they always have it available for a low price.
I have a collection of Chinese versions of Many Faces, one with a 30 page
Chinese language manual explaining all the features in Chinese. I would
My sales in Japan through AI IGO are 10x or more the sales of Many Faces
English. English sales are about evenly split between USA and Europe. I
have more sales to Finland than to China.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Many Faces gained 5 ranks when I added MCTS to it (with about 7 months of
full time work), so I have to agree that Monte Carlo changed our world.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
Sent: Tuesday,
]; computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Opportunity to promote ...
On 18-nov-08, at 14:32, Don Dailey wrote:
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 08:28 -0800, David Fotland wrote:
Many Faces gained 5 ranks when I added MCTS to it (with about 7
months
of
full time work), so I have to agree
One for each. Actually they were running on a 128 core cluster. The
current code only scales to 32 cores, so only half the cluster was used.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hideki Kato
Sent: Tuesday, November 18,
: [computer-go] FW: computer-go] Monte carlo play?
On Nov 16, 2008, at 11:18 AM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
games.com wrote:
I thought Valkyria does local search (ladders) during the playouts.
Many Faces is lighter on the playouts. I have 17 local 3x3
patterns, then
go to uniform
Many Faces of Go's Monte Carlo engine plays strongly using Japanese rules.
It's required for sales in American and japan (as AI Igo). I don't use
Remi's trick, since there are sometimes points remaining when your opponent
passes when playing against weaker players.
David
-Original
The cluster uses Windows HPC operating system. Many Faces was running on
the cluster using MPI. The Demo used a Cray computer running Windows HPC.
A gorgeous GUI was developed for Surface (by Vectorform) that can talk to
any GTP engine. I made a GTP engine that uses MPI and runs on a cluster,
The release version of Many Faces 12, available now, should be compatible
with Wine.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:31 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re:
Free trial download at www.smart-games.com, registration keys available for
purchase. The discount price is still available for the weekend.
David
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computer-go@computer-go.org
programs?
GNU Go won the tournament at the US Go Congress against several MC
programs including Many Faces and Leela, but the Many Faces that
competed was not quite the newest. David Fotland was working on the
program while in Portland and only got the multi-core (to use both
cores of a duo
Do we have to show up in person, or can our programs be operated for us?
David Fotland
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TAKESHI ITO
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:22 PM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject
You can also try the free version of Many Faces of Go 12 at
www.smart-games.com. Many Faces version 11 worked under wine, so this one
should too. If you try it please let me know if it works.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
I have many assertions, but no unit tests. When I use incremental data
structures I have code to in the debug build to calculate the same results
non-incrementally, and assert if they dont compare.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL
I started writing my first go program I think in 1981 or '82. It was
influence based and I threw it away and started over with something that did
tactical search instead, in '82 or '83. I think its first tournament was in
1984, and I started selling it in 1986 (as Cosmos). It was renamed Many
Is your reference compiled java version on cgos? I'd like to cut back Many
Faces to your spec and see how it does. Maybe find some bugs.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:26 AM
Many Faces uses quite light playouts, and is 1 kyu 19x19 on KGS when run on
32 cores. So I think you can make a fairly strong program using light
playouts. My playouts are certainly far lighter than Crazystone or Mogo.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I use Many Faces' knowledge in the search, but not the playouts. I made
them as light and fast as I could.
I don't have a way any more to just do playouts without the uct search. In
your position after a few thousand playouts, it gets over 95% win for white
and 5% win for black (depending on who
If you don't have sueperko, I think you need a maximum moves stopping
criteria too.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 6:11 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: [computer-go] simple MC
Google translate does a pretty god job of translating these pages.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hideki Kato
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:13 PM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: [computer-go] 2nd
It was 4x 8-cores.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
I'm curious -- was this an 8 x
I suggest you filter all but the very strongest players, to get a more
accurate komi, from the strongest games.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 7:03 PM
To: Erik van der
Integer komi has a problem for many MCTS implementations, since a playout
only returns win or loss. This would require playouts to also return drawn.
My playouts work this way. I know Erik's can return draw. I dont know
about mogo or leela.
Davdi
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL
Subject: [computer-go] Congratulations again to David Fotland !
Hello,
Many Faces of Go has won also the 19x19 competition
in the 13th International Computer Games Championships,
with a 100 % score. The silver medal goes to MoGo (only
loss against MFoG), Leela achieves Bronze (only two losses,
against
that uses
tradition program knowledge (like Many Faces).
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Osgood
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 9:21 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations again to David Fotland !
On Oct 4, 2008
to David Fotland !
Ingo, thanks for the info.
Congrats to David Fotland, also to the Mogo and Leela teams!
What were the time controls on the 19x19 games?
- Original Message
From: Ingo Althöfer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Many Faces of Go has won also the 19x19 competition
in the 13th
Of Michael Markefka
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:18 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
So, when are we going to see distributed computing? [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] With Go engines that scale well to
increased
It seems likely now that the correct komi for 9x9 is 7.0. If so, I'd prefer
6.5 komi to 7.5, since 6.5 would have black winning most games, and most
other games have a first player advantage. This would give 9x9 go a similar
first player advantage.
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL
No. on 9x9 without sekis, the score must be odd, 5, 7, or 9.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Antonin Lucas
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:16 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] On ranks 2 and 3 of 9x9 in Beijing
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:13 PM,
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:57 PM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
Is Microsoft now selling computers? Interesting...
Let me chime in with my
in a seki situation?
- Don
On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 05:29 -0700, David Fotland wrote:
No. on 9x9 without sekis, the score must be odd, 5, 7, or 9.
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Antonin
Lucas
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:16 PM
To: computer-go
: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:56 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
Congratulations!
Yes, well done David. I see Many Faces won even without getting the loss
to Mogo reversed.
I was surprised to hear that there were now only thirteen entrants. Why
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Osgood
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:47 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
Congratulations! Both for the gold, and for defeating Mogo. I never
thought I'd see the day that the Go tournaments would bring heavier
hardware
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
I'm curious -- was this an 8 x quad-core box? Should be able to fit all
those
Althöfer
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:30 AM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: [computer-go] Congratulations to David Fotland!
His program Many Faces of Go has become winner
in the 9x9-Go competition in the
13th International Computer Games Championship,
held in Beijing.
Rank 2 for MoGo
Many Faces of Go participated in the main Cotsen tournament, playing against
people, on a 2 core machine, run by volunteer Terry McIntyre. It lost 3
times to 3 kyu, beat a 4 kyu, and beat a 5 kyu.
The Computer game Olympiad in Beijing is being played now. 9x9 results are
up after each round
This is an interesting idea, but do you have any actual results? If you
implement this kind of rave formula do you get a stronger program?
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason House
Sent: Wednesday, September 24,
: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:43 AM
To: computer go
Subject: [computer-go] MFG 12 and Cotsen Tournament
David Fotland graciously permitted me to enter a development version of
Many Faces of Go in the Cotsen Tournament.
It played five games, losing the first three to 3 kyu players
AMAF certainly helps to do move ordering when there is little other
information. With good prior heuristics or enough actual playouts, it
should not be weighted very highly. AMAF finds good moves, but it often
bias heavily for or against moves. In ManyFaces, AMAF (actually RAVE) is
worth
Some comments:
First, I've seen tournament games between beginners where both agreed on the
death of a group because it was bent 4 in the corner when in fact the
shape was not bent-4 and the group was alive. It's very hard for observers
not so say something when the game is scored incorrectly.
] On Behalf Of Robert Jasiek
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:56 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Disputes under Japanese rules
David Fotland wrote:
Japanese rules' [...] the actual counting [...] The position is
preserved
Japanese counting destroys the position
be possible to at least calculate where you
stand by looking at the board and basing this on what you know for
sure.
- Don
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 18:56 +0200, Robert Jasiek wrote:
David Fotland wrote:
Japanese rules' [...] the actual counting [...] The position is
preserved
told that good players don't think like that, they just grab
at everything.
- Don
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 10:06 -0700, David Fotland wrote:
I was speaking of how people count, not computers. Chinese players
count by taking all the stones off the board and putting them in
piles of ten
If I'm playing Japanese rules I would not respond to your pass by removing
the stone. I would pass and end the game.
If we disagree on the group status, you get to play first and make it live.
If you fail to make it live, then we now agree on the status of the group,
and we restore the position
At this point I think everyone would agree that E5 is the optimal first move
for black on 9x9.
Now that I have deeper and more accurate search, my engine favors E7 in
response to E5 by a large margin. Do the other strong programs also find
that E7 is best response?
After E5 E7, there are
I made a change over the weekend, which looks like it makes 9x9 150 ELO
weaker and 19x19 over 200 ELO stronger.
Very strange.
David
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09, 2008 9:20 AM
To: computer-go
Subject: Re: [computer-go] 9x9 to 19x19 scaling strangeness
David Fotland wrote:
I made a change over the weekend, which looks like it makes 9x9 150
ELO
weaker and 19x19 over 200 ELO stronger.
Very strange.
David
So I guess you have seen the same effect. I have no size dependent code.
Can you tell us some of the things that make a big difference between 19x19 and
9x9? Do you turn off progressive unpruning for 9x9? Do you have a different
balance between exploration and exploitation?
David
Actually I see that I didnt test on 19x19 for a couple of weeks, so the
improved strength can be from any of a dozen changes I made and only tested
on 9x9.
David
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It looks like it hasn't scheduled any games for the last few hours.
David
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