Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

No the POTS has power.  Having gotten a shock or two from a phone line
in my time.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:38 AM, katan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:23:31 -0400, John Duncan Yoyo wrote:
>
>  >If you have FIOS there is a box that plugs into the wall that powers
>  >the box that converts the fiber to phone,
>  >and passed power to your local phones.
>
>  I know. I don't have FiOS. It looks to me that Rich was saying that
>  even copper POTS was no longer supplying power for my Princess Phone.
>  Thusly:
>
>
>  >> >At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:
>  >>  >
>  >>  >>POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
>  >>  >>to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)
>
>
>
> --
>R:\katan
>  
>  LET'S GO METS!!  LET'S GO METS!!
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[katan]

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:23:31 -0400, John Duncan Yoyo wrote:

>If you have FIOS there is a box that plugs into the wall that powers
>the box that converts the fiber to phone,
>and passed power to your local phones.

I know. I don't have FiOS. It looks to me that Rich was saying that
even copper POTS was no longer supplying power for my Princess Phone.
Thusly:

>> >At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:
>>  >
>>  >>POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
>>  >>to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)

--
   R:\katan

LET'S GO METS!!  LET'S GO METS!!


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

If you have FIOS there is a box that plugs into the wall that powers
the box that converts the fiber to phone,
and passed power to your local phones.


On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:57 PM, katan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:
>  >
>  >>POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
>  >>to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)
>
>  Well that doesn't sound right. I don't plug *any* of my phones into an
>  electric outlet, and they work just fine. So either they're pumping the
>  electricity down the fiber, or the fiber ends at the CO where the
>  batteries are, and the copper goes from there.
>
>  When they run fiber to a neighborhood, don't they have to keep some
>  copper connected for the luddites, or do they just force everybody to
>  fiber? Now if they ever get around to running fiber in North Beach,
>  they're going to have to keep my one lone copper wire connected because
>  the electric goes out on my side of the street too often for me to go
>  fiber.
>
>  --
>R:\katan
>  
>  LET'S GO METS!!  LET'S GO METS!!
>
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[katan]

>At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:
>
>>POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
>>to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)

Well that doesn't sound right. I don't plug *any* of my phones into an
electric outlet, and they work just fine. So either they're pumping the
electricity down the fiber, or the fiber ends at the CO where the
batteries are, and the copper goes from there.

When they run fiber to a neighborhood, don't they have to keep some
copper connected for the luddites, or do they just force everybody to
fiber? Now if they ever get around to running fiber in North Beach,
they're going to have to keep my one lone copper wire connected because
the electric goes out on my side of the street too often for me to go
fiber.

--
   R:\katan

LET'S GO METS!!  LET'S GO METS!!


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Fred Holmes]

At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:

>POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
>to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)

This is a real bummer.  During hurricane Isabel my neighborhood in Annandale 
lost power for just under three days (66 hrs o/a).  The POTS phone worked the 
entire time.  Cell phones didn't as the towers didn't have power.  So there 
will be no way to call 911 under these new circumstances.  What happens to 
public safety then?  We will need fire call boxes in the neighborhoods just 
like we had sixty years ago???  Some other kind of emergency radio?

Fred Holmes 


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>I never knock the competition.  All I can say is that in Verizon
>territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable
>facsimile.

That has been my experience with Verizon DSL.

I'm puzzled why Mike is so anti science. Knowing how something really 
works means that you can figure out how it will work, even under 
conditions that have not yet been experienced. With Mike's observational 
approach the best one can ever say is "So far go good." Observation 
brought us astrology, science brought us astronomy. Etc., etc.

I agree with Mike that certain companies tend to underperform and that 
such compalies should be avoided until there is evidence of improvement. 
But that has nothing to do with the choice of DSL vs cable. Such a 
company would be a poor performer regardless of the technology they 
employed.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Vicky you prove my point.

I thought she proved mine. She is in effect in a straightjacket and this 
prevents her getting DSL. Given complete freedon she would get DSL.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

You text a message to your cousin in NYC requesting him to call and
notify the power company for you.

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Fred Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you notify the power company of an outage with a cell phone text message?
>
>  Fred Holmes
>
>
>  At 10:39 PM 3/17/2008, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>  >What I read (and I think it was on this list) is that they disable the POTS 
> service from the box or father back.
>  >
>  >It is their way of cutting back on service for that type of line etc.
>  >
>  >Keep a cell phone handy.  The FCC is requiring (and the cell companies are 
> fighting) long term back ups at all Cell towers.
>  >
>  >Last year when the Tornado wiped out the High School west of here, their 
> cell phone service worked excellently until demand outstripped the towers 
> capacity (mainly used by emergency and public service personnel.)  They have 
> since upped it's capacity so that does not happen again.  (regional Cell 
> company owned by the Southern Companies)
>  >
>  >In New Orleans after Katrina, our Church/National staff was able to 
> communicate with Cells although it was spotty, but text messaging worked like 
> a champ!!!
>  >
>  >Stewart
>
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Fred Holmes]

But what happens when the electrical grid goes down?  In the "olden days" when 
copper came all the way from the central office, the central office had huge 
storage batteries that would last for 48 hours or more and a diesel generator 
that would run as long as fueled.  If now many POTS phones are fed by fiber to 
the neighborhood where it joins the neighborhood copper, the only place that 
the power-over-copper can be supplied is from the neighborhood connection to 
the grid, which may be down (unless power copper is in the bundle with the 
fiber).

Fred Holmes

At 04:22 PM 3/17/2008, Michel Lowe wrote:
>The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've got a
>'70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a POTS
>line and it will work just fine.
>-Mike
>
>__ 
>Michel David Lowe 


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Fred Holmes]

Can you notify the power company of an outage with a cell phone text message?

Fred Holmes

At 10:39 PM 3/17/2008, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>What I read (and I think it was on this list) is that they disable the POTS 
>service from the box or father back.
>
>It is their way of cutting back on service for that type of line etc.
>
>Keep a cell phone handy.  The FCC is requiring (and the cell companies are 
>fighting) long term back ups at all Cell towers.
>
>Last year when the Tornado wiped out the High School west of here, their cell 
>phone service worked excellently until demand outstripped the towers capacity 
>(mainly used by emergency and public service personnel.)  They have since 
>upped it's capacity so that does not happen again.  (regional Cell company 
>owned by the Southern Companies)
>
>In New Orleans after Katrina, our Church/National staff was able to 
>communicate with Cells although it was spotty, but text messaging worked like 
>a champ!!!
>
>Stewart


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

I have two Igo power supply chargers.

I go makes both laptop power supplies and car charges but the unique 
thing is you can replace the tips for different appliances.


I have one in my car with a dual lead so I can charge two things at 
once.  All I have to have is the tips for each device.


I also have a 90 watt one which will do laptops.  It comes with both 
11 home plug in and a car adapter (plane) so I can charge the laptop 
in the car.


With the tips I can charge most any portable appliance.

Stewart


At 07:16 AM 3/18/2008, you wrote:

The box where your FIOS back up battery lives has lights and alarms on
it.  If you open it up it  has a battery similar to those used in a
UPS.  I was told to expect to replace it on my dime in three or four
years.

They left the POTS lines connected in the phone box on the house but
who knows what they did down the line.

I keep charging cables for the cell phones in the cars just in  case.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Michel Lowe]

The question was "does a POTS line still supply power?"  The answer is
unequivocally "yes."  If you have a POTS line to your house and your power
goes down -- pretty common occurrence here in Western Loudoun lately -- the
power on the POTS line will stay up and you can plug your 1970s-vintage
Princess Phone in and call the electric company to complain about the
blackout.  I have four wireless phones in my home and one plain, black
telephone -- guess which one still works when the lights go out in
Purcellville.

Switching subjects to FiOS, Verizon usually disconnects your copper when
they install the fiber but you can request them to leave it.  I think we
have folks on this list who retained their copper when they got FiOS.  But
since Verizon switches your phone service to the fiber circuit when they
install FiOS I'm not sure that there's still power on your old copper.  You
would probably have to pay for a second phone line to keep the copper
"live."  Anybody know?
-Mike

__ 
Michel David Lowe 


> -Original Message-
> From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of MrMike6by9
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:24 PM
> To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@listserv.aol.com
> Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
> 
> Everything I've heard says that when Verizon installs FiOS, they cut the
old
> POTS line. That Princess phone will not work then.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> 
> > The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've
got
> > a
> > '70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a
POTS
> > line and it will work just fine.
> >
> 
> 
> --
> I'm as pure as the driven slush.
> - Tallulah Bankhead
> 
> 
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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

The box where your FIOS back up battery lives has lights and alarms on
it.  If you open it up it  has a battery similar to those used in a
UPS.  I was told to expect to replace it on my dime in three or four
years.

They left the POTS lines connected in the phone box on the house but
who knows what they did down the line.

I keep charging cables for the cell phones in the cars just in  case.

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In this discussion of FIOS, I'm reading if I lose my electric I'll lose
>  >my phone service.  Is that correct?
>
>  It will last as long as the battery holds out.
>
>  Do FiOS customers get any instructions on how to maintain their battery?
>
>
>
>
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---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

What I read (and I think it was on this list) is that they disable 
the POTS service from the box or father back.


It is their way of cutting back on service for that type of line etc.

Keep a cell phone handy.  The FCC is requiring (and the cell 
companies are fighting) long term back ups at all Cell towers.


Last year when the Tornado wiped out the High School west of here, 
their cell phone service worked excellently until demand outstripped 
the towers capacity (mainly used by emergency and public service 
personnel.)  They have since upped it's capacity so that does not 
happen again.  (regional Cell company owned by the Southern Companies)


In New Orleans after Katrina, our Church/National staff was able to 
communicate with Cells although it was spotty, but text messaging 
worked like a champ!!!


Stewart


At 09:23 PM 3/17/2008, you wrote:

Everything I've heard says that when Verizon installs FiOS, they cut the old
POTS line. That Princess phone will not work then.

YMMV


> The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've got
> a
> '70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a POTS
> line and it will work just fine.
>


--
I'm as pure as the driven slush.
- Tallulah Bankhead


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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[MrMike6by9]

Everything I've heard says that when Verizon installs FiOS, they cut the old
POTS line. That Princess phone will not work then.

YMMV


> The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've got
> a
> '70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a POTS
> line and it will work just fine.
>


-- 
I'm as pure as the driven slush.
- Tallulah Bankhead


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>I don't doubt you but AT&T did send someone out twice to check my  
>lines and said they were fine to receive the designated speed.  And  
>when I was paying for the higher speed, I got what the lower level  
>promised.  As soon as I moved to the lower priced level, my speed  
>dropped drastically. 

Which is the classic presentation of a noisy line that requires many 
blocks to be resent. Somewhere a connection was loose or some piece of 
equipment was getting ready to fail.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>In this discussion of FIOS, I'm reading if I lose my electric I'll lose
>my phone service.  Is that correct?

It will last as long as the battery holds out.

Do FiOS customers get any instructions on how to maintain their battery?


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Richard P.]

Thanks. It's good to know that it will still work when the power goes 
out. Not only do we depend upon it when we lose power, especially for 
extended days during a major storm, but it is also the way we call the 
power company to let them know where the power is out.


Richard P.



The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've got a
'70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a POTS
line and it will work just fine.
  
  



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Fred Holmes]

At 01:56 PM 3/17/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote:
>Aside:  I heard a radio advertisement today that said that fios is available 
>the same speed upload as download.  I kinda question this but you never know.
>I pay for the 15/2 and do get up to 20/1.75 most times.
>
>YMMV
>rich 

 From a physics/electrical engineering standpoint, there is no reason that 
upload speed should be slower than download speed.  My understanding is that 
the asymmetry is designed into the system on purpose for "home" customers to 
discourage anyone from putting a server in his house.  If you want to put a 
server in your house you can get the speeds to do it, but you must pay 
"business" rates for the service.   ??

Fred Holmes  


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Michel Lowe]

The phone company still supplies power for "legacy" phones.  If you've got a
'70s Princess Phone in a box in your basement, you can plug it into a POTS
line and it will work just fine.
-Mike

__ 
Michel David Lowe 



> -Original Message-
> From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:COMPUTERGUYS-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard P.
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:58 PM
> To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
> 
> Is the same true for POTS alone on a copper wire? If so, when did this
> change?
> 
> Richard P.
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
> > to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Paula Minor]

As I wrote earlier, you may have had a marginal line and they  
should have
turned you down for service. Alternatively, you may look good on  
paper,
but have just one loose connection somewhere in your local loop.  
That is

all it takes to make the whole thing work poorly.

I don't doubt you but AT&T did send someone out twice to check my  
lines and said they were fine to receive the designated speed.  And  
when I was paying for the higher speed, I got what the lower level  
promised.  As soon as I moved to the lower priced level, my speed  
dropped drastically.  I still say they can control it and give you  
the bare minimum dependent on what you are paying.  I won't go back  
to AT&T for anything.  We currently have their landline phone  
service.  I'd dump them for that too but my husband doesn't want to  
"rock the boat".




Paula
IN/USA
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of  
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather  
to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body  
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a  
ride!" Have a wonderful day!








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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Richard P.]

Is the same true for POTS alone on a copper wire? If so, when did this 
change?


Richard P.






POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)





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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rich Schinnell]

At 01:09 PM 3/17/2008, you wrote:

Date:Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:00:08 -0400
From:"Schmidt, Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77D742CB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In this discussion of FIOS, I'm reading if I lose my electric I'll lose
my phone service.  Is that correct?
Paul Schmidt


When your small UPS that powers your phone circuits fails, then you probably
will lose your phone service. As soon as the power fails, your fios internet
access will be dropped, as the battery only supplies the phones, from what
the tech told me when it was installed.  Good thing I have a whole house
generator..  :)


POTS no longer supplies your phone power as they can't figure out a way
to pump electricity down the fibre line.  :)

Aside:  I heard a radio advertisement today that said that fios is 
available the same speed upload as download.  I kinda question this 
but you never know.

I pay for the 15/2 and do get up to 20/1.75 most times.

YMMV
rich 



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[b_s-wilk]

Since it's possible to get +20Mbps DSL speeds on copper lines in east 
Asia, why can't US providers give anything close to that on copper 
instead of pushing FIOS? FIOS requires installing all new lines, while 
converting DSL to VDSL depends on computers at the source and updating 
local switches. It's possible for FIOS to provide up to 40Gbps [as 
enjoyed by Sigbritt Löthberg, from Karlstad in central Sweden in an 
experimental setup], with switches that can be as far as 2000 km apart, 
yet here in the US, FIOS--and cable--is not only slow as a slug by 
comparison, it's too expensive.


My husband thinks our slow DSL has 'hitchhikers' across the street, so I 
added WPA encryption. That helped a little, judging from speed tests 
that still show 1/2 the speed we pay for. Main problem was getting his 
Vista peecee to find the network and allow him to log in. Will report 
whether rewiring to the outside box with new enet cable improves speed.


BTW, I just got this month's Verizon bill. They gave me another free 
month of DSL because I requested a price adjustment due to their new 
pricing model. My DSL plus phone is cheaper than dry-loop. Searching 
online and reading about account choices in the phone book makes a big 
difference in charges and fees.


Betty

>That wasn't my short experience with AT&T DSL.  I started out paying  
>for the highest speed they offered and tested it several times a day  
>for a week.  I never got the higher speed but the lowest speed I got  
>was the 'top' of the next level down so I called and switched to the  
>lower cost service since the highest speed for t hat was what I'd  
>been getting.  Suddenly my speed dropped by half or more and was not  
>even getting the minimum speed advertised for that level.


As I wrote earlier, you may have had a marginal line and they should have 
turned you down for service. Alternatively, you may look good on paper, 
but have just one loose connection somewhere in your local loop. That is 
all it takes to make the whole thing work poorly.


The phone company, especially in the early days, was not very good at 
troubleshooting. They gave themselves a black eye.


Bad management is bad management. Good engineering is good engineering. 
Either one can negate the other.



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

Unfortunetly my brain was on backwards this morning.  Yes it is 15
down and 2 up.

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Mike Sloane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I hope you meant to write "15mbps down and 2 mbps up". That is the way
>  that most asynchronous services work.
>
>  Mike
>
>
>  John Duncan Yoyo wrote:
>
>  > The internet comes into the house to a Verizon wireless router through
>  > an ethernet cable and you can distribute it either wirelessly or
>  > through a wired network.  I have 15mbps up and 2 mbps down.  It was
>  > about a two hour install with me doing the internal hookups to the
>  > network since I was in a hurry that day.  Everything else about the
>  > internet hookup is pretty standard.
>  >
>
>
>
>
> *
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-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Mike Sloane]

I hope you meant to write "15mbps down and 2 mbps up". That is the way 
that most asynchronous services work.


Mike

John Duncan Yoyo wrote:


The internet comes into the house to a Verizon wireless router through
an ethernet cable and you can distribute it either wirelessly or
through a wired network.  I have 15mbps up and 2 mbps down.  It was
about a two hour install with me doing the internal hookups to the
network since I was in a hurry that day.  Everything else about the
internet hookup is pretty standard.




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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Schmidt, Paul]

In this discussion of FIOS, I'm reading if I lose my electric I'll lose
my phone service.  Is that correct?
Paul Schmidt
 

-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Duncan Yoyo
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 8:27 AM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

FIOS is fast.  The simple version is that they run a fiber to your
house.  Outside your house they  put a box which converts the light to
internet, TV and phone.   The box outputs internet on a Ethernet
cable, TV on a coax with a small portion available without a secondary
converter box and the phone gets wired to the existing outside box.
The outside box is powered by your electricity and there is a small
backup battery in your house.

The internet comes into the house to a Verizon wireless router through
an Ethernet cable and you can distribute it either wirelessly or through
a wired network.  I have 15mbps up and 2 mbps down.  It was about a two
hour install with me doing the internal hookups to the network since I
was in a hurry that day.  Everything else about the internet hookup is
pretty standard.

On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 6:21 PM, John Mealey III
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Vicky asked how FiOS works.  Here is what I understand is  the basics:
>
>  In your neighborhood there is a 'pad' that some number of  fiber 
> optical cables are laid to.  The cable is interesting  it is a single 
> cable in a sheath that has a copper drain  ground wire.  That wire is 
> what they send the signal down  for the 'Miss Utility' crews to come 
> around to find it for  other work.
>
>  I can't recall if it is single mode or multimode fiber.
>
>  The boxes at your house are the 'ONT' or Optical Network  Terminator 
> (or possibly terminatino), a battery with a charging  subsystem 
> (widget that plugs into power), and in the ONT there  is the pull off 
> for transfer to 'POTS' lines and traditional  cable service over 
> coaxial cable.
>
>  Note I said, one fiber optic cable.  Initially threw me for a  loop 
> [yes bad pun], but the tech said there were multiple wave  lengths for

> transmit receive over the same fiber optic cable.
>
>  I have heard it is ATM, an OC-3 which is about 155MB or so,  and 
> carved up to 51 MB for internet, 51MB for upto four phone  lines, and 
> 51MB for TV.  Have not been able to verify that.
>
>  All rumor of course and unless your pull'in my teeth I  won't fess up

> to knowing more.
>
>  Kind Regards,
>
>  John Mealey
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: Computer Guys Discussion List
>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vicky Staubly
>  Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 2:11 PM
>  To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>  Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
>
>
>  On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Tom Piwowar wrote:
>  >> Vicky you prove my point.
>  >
>  > I thought she proved mine. She is in effect in a straightjacket and

> this  > prevents her getting DSL. Given complete freedom she would get
DSL.
>
>  Given _complete_ freedom, I said I'd choose FiOS. I haven't seen  any

> technical discussion of how FiOS operates, but I don't think it's  
> simply "DSL over Fiber".
>
>  For a few years, we had a farm in Maryland, and our only broadband  
> choice there was Verizon DSL. It worked reasonably well, though  the 
> maximum bandwidth (640k down, 90k up) was less than we're  getting 
> with Comcast (which does vary, but the local (our end)  variation 
> seems less than the remote (server end) variation).
>
>  That said, my criteria for getting internet service would be a  
> combination of factors: total bandwidth, bandwidth per dollar,  
> reliability (which is a combination of the physical media and  how 
> well it's maintained by the provider). Unfortunately, that  last 
> factor varies from cable company to cable company, and phone  company 
> to phone company, and even within a given company's territory.
>  So, you just have to go on word of mouth, from people as close  to 
> you as you can find.
>
>  And, of course, "bandwidth" is measured in "really available"
>  bandwidth, not "advertised bandwidth". And that can be even  harder 
> to find accurate numbers for, even more so than for  "reliability".
>
>  Errr... I'll stop babbling now... All I meant to say was "FiOS,  not 
> DSL".
>
>  --
>  Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>  
> **
> ***
>  **  List info, subscription management, list r

Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

FIOS is fast.  The simple version is that they run a fiber to your
house.  Outside your house they  put a box which converts the light to
internet, TV and phone.   The box outputs internet on a ethernet
cable, TV on a coax with a small portion available without a secondary
converter box and the phone gets wired to the existing outside box.
The outside box is powered by your electricity and there is a small
backup battery in your house.

The internet comes into the house to a Verizon wireless router through
an ethernet cable and you can distribute it either wirelessly or
through a wired network.  I have 15mbps up and 2 mbps down.  It was
about a two hour install with me doing the internal hookups to the
network since I was in a hurry that day.  Everything else about the
internet hookup is pretty standard.

On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 6:21 PM, John Mealey III
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Vicky asked how FiOS works.  Here is what I understand is
>  the basics:
>
>  In your neighborhood there is a 'pad' that some number of
>  fiber optical cables are laid to.  The cable is interesting
>  it is a single cable in a sheath that has a copper drain
>  ground wire.  That wire is what they send the signal down
>  for the 'Miss Utility' crews to come around to find it for
>  other work.
>
>  I can't recall if it is single mode or multimode fiber.
>
>  The boxes at your house are the 'ONT' or Optical Network
>  Terminator (or possibly terminatino), a battery with a charging
>  subsystem (widget that plugs into power), and in the ONT there
>  is the pull off for transfer to 'POTS' lines and traditional
>  cable service over coxail cable.
>
>  Note I said, one fiber optic cable.  Initially threw me for a
>  loop [yes bad pun], but the tech said there were multiple wave
>  lenghts for transmit receive over the same fiber optic cable.
>
>  I have heard it is ATM, an OC-3 which is about 155MB or so,
>  and carved up to 51 MB for internet, 51MB for upto four phone
>  lines, and 51MB for TV.  Have not been able to verify that.
>
>  All rumor of course and unless your pull'in my teeth I
>  won't fess up to knowing more.
>
>  Kind Regarsd,
>
>  John Mealey
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: Computer Guys Discussion List
>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vicky Staubly
>  Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 2:11 PM
>  To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>  Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
>
>
>  On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Tom Piwowar wrote:
>  >> Vicky you prove my point.
>  >
>  > I thought she proved mine. She is in effect in a straightjacket and this
>  > prevents her getting DSL. Given complete freedon she would get DSL.
>
>  Given _complete_ freedom, I said I'd choose FiOS. I haven't seen
>  any technical discussion of how FiOS operates, but I don't think it's
>  simply "DSL over Fiber".
>
>  For a few years, we had a farm in Maryland, and our only broadband
>  choice there was Verizon DSL. It worked reasonably well, though
>  the maximum bandwidth (640k down, 90k up) was less than we're
>  getting with Comcast (which does vary, but the local (our end)
>  variation seems less than the remote (server end) variation).
>
>  That said, my criteria for getting internet service would be a
>  combination of factors: total bandwidth, bandwidth per dollar,
>  reliability (which is a combination of the physical media and
>  how well it's maintained by the provider). Unfortunately, that
>  last factor varies from cable company to cable company, and phone
>  company to phone company, and even within a given company's territory.
>  So, you just have to go on word of mouth, from people as close
>  to you as you can find.
>
>  And, of course, "bandwidth" is measured in "really available"
>  bandwidth, not "advertised bandwidth". And that can be even
>  harder to find accurate numbers for, even more so than for
>  "reliability".
>
>  Errr... I'll stop babbling now... All I meant to say was "FiOS,
>  not DSL".
>
>  --
>  Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>  *
>  **  List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy  **
>  **  policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/  **
>  *
>
>
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-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

You haven't explained any 'engineering' behind anything.  And your cable
meltdown doesn't hold water at least in this part of the country.  DSL is
going away in Arizona, there is simply no way it can catch up to what Cox
has planned.  And other technologies that are up and coming will surpass
cable and DSL.

Try the actual company that is doing the P4P, not the NYT's story.
http://www.pandonetworks.com/p4p

Comcast, Cox...Time Warner.  All cable companies all involved in this P4P.
I'm sure they are just monitoring the whole thing to help DSL take a lead.

The cleverness in the cable camp is raw speed.

Mike

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Did you read your own link about P4P?  Nowhere is it mentioned cable
> can't
> >do it, or that only DSL can.
>
> Mike, Are you doing an "it depends on what the meaning of is is" number
> on us?
>
> The NYT story mentions Comcast just once. It does that to contrast
> Comcast vs. DSL providers. The NYT notes that Comcast is being
> investigated for implementing secret roadblocks to P2P traffic. It also
> says that other cable companies admit to implementing "less drastic"
> blocks to slow P2P.
>
> Cable is having a big problem managing traffic. They are taking drastic
> measures to avoid a meltdown. I'm just explaining the engineering behind
> it.
>
> I think that what the DSL providers have devised is damn clever and makes
> a good thing better. I do not see any cleverness in the cable camp.
>
> This is engineering, not astrology.
>
>
> *
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> **  policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/  **
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>


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>That wasn't my short experience with AT&T DSL.  I started out paying  
>for the highest speed they offered and tested it several times a day  
>for a week.  I never got the higher speed but the lowest speed I got  
>was the 'top' of the next level down so I called and switched to the  
>lower cost service since the highest speed for t hat was what I'd  
>been getting.  Suddenly my speed dropped by half or more and was not  
>even getting the minimum speed advertised for that level.

As I wrote earlier, you may have had a marginal line and they should have 
turned you down for service. Alternatively, you may look good on paper, 
but have just one loose connection somewhere in your local loop. That is 
all it takes to make the whole thing work poorly.

The phone company, especially in the early days, was not very good at 
troubleshooting. They gave themselves a black eye.

Bad management is bad management. Good engineering is good engineering. 
Either one can negate the other.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Did you read your own link about P4P?  Nowhere is it mentioned cable can't
>do it, or that only DSL can.

Mike, Are you doing an "it depends on what the meaning of is is" number 
on us?

The NYT story mentions Comcast just once. It does that to contrast 
Comcast vs. DSL providers. The NYT notes that Comcast is being 
investigated for implementing secret roadblocks to P2P traffic. It also 
says that other cable companies admit to implementing "less drastic" 
blocks to slow P2P.

Cable is having a big problem managing traffic. They are taking drastic 
measures to avoid a meltdown. I'm just explaining the engineering behind 
it. 

I think that what the DSL providers have devised is damn clever and makes 
a good thing better. I do not see any cleverness in the cable camp.

This is engineering, not astrology.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Paula Minor]

No. DSL does not work that way. You get the speed you pay for plus
usually a small margin. You get it reliably. You don't get wild  
highs and

lows.
That wasn't my short experience with AT&T DSL.  I started out paying  
for the highest speed they offered and tested it several times a day  
for a week.  I never got the higher speed but the lowest speed I got  
was the 'top' of the next level down so I called and switched to the  
lower cost service since the highest speed for t hat was what I'd  
been getting.  Suddenly my speed dropped by half or more and was not  
even getting the minimum speed advertised for that level.  I called  
tech support several times with no luck in improving my speed and  
lots of excuses.  I had 30 days to cancel without having to pay THEM  
for cancelling and that's what I did.  Cancelled it.  I still  had my  
Comcast cable going on another computer so I just hooked everything  
back up to that and instantly was back up to speed.

The DSL was cheaper but I got what I paid for.

Paula
IN/USA
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of  
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather  
to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body  
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a  
ride!" Have a wonderful day!








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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

Did you read your own link about P4P?  Nowhere is it mentioned cable can't
do it, or that only DSL can.   At most they state it might be more difficult
for cable.  Again, why would the company who is providing the software be
working with cable companies if the software won't work on cable?   The
shared bandwith argument is basically a canard still put out by DSL
companies trying to keep the past alive when it was true.   In the end
everything is shared.   Other then Tom does anyone on cable experience these
massive slowdowns at the same time every day?  As I said, here in AZ cox is
providing massive bandwith, far more then what customers pay for all the
time.  I know two dozen people all on cox that get more then what they pay
for daily.  At best, qwest is satisfactory.  They are selling services that
are at their top 4 times slower then cable.  As I keep saying, this is just
in my corner of internet providers.  Anyone else with what goes on in your
area for DSL and cable?

I don't get your no net gain argument at all.  I've downloaded files from
neighbors, both on cable modems and I get the files at 4 or 5 times the
speed I could get them off the net.  How is that no gain?  The point is how
much bandwith is being thrown at it.  If 100 people are sharing 100mbits
then sure it's going to slow down at times.  But if that same 100 are
sharing 5000mbits and only paying for 20mbit connections then there is no
slowdown.  DSL is horribly expensive to upgrade precisely because it is not
shared, every user has to be upgraded, cable companies can upgrade bandwith
much cheaper.  This is one reason Cox has increased by 4 fold here and Qwest
has not moved in the same time period.

Anyone looking into getting DSL and cable don't be swayed by Tom or anyone
else, talk to your neighbors who have DSL and Cable in your area.  Get real
world examples of what you are looking at and get out of the theory.  Ask
how often they have been offered speed bumps in the last year?  Two years?
What extras are provided?  Cox gives out multiple POP email, a basic web
page, Usenet access etc, Qwest offers none of these.  In your area DSL might
be the one with the extras.  I remember when email wasn't an extra but
always standard.

Mike



On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Cable can do.  Why else would Cox and Comcast be working with them to
> >implement the so called p4p.  You seem to have the same problem with
> >spreading FUD about cable as you do about windows.
>
> Please provide a link re Cox and Comcast. P4P does not work with cable's
> architecture. As I have been writing, it is essential to understand how
> things are built to understand how they can be used. No P4P for cable
> because there is no net gain.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Cable can do.  Why else would Cox and Comcast be working with them to
>implement the so called p4p.  You seem to have the same problem with
>spreading FUD about cable as you do about windows.

Please provide a link re Cox and Comcast. P4P does not work with cable's 
architecture. As I have been writing, it is essential to understand how 
things are built to understand how they can be used. No P4P for cable 
because there is no net gain.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Bottom line. The ceo waved my early termination fee and that was the last
>I heard of it but he did say that the salesman was wrong.  I could have
>bought the phone without the data plan.  but it was too late then.

The company stores seem to be terribly uninformed and tend to err on the 
side of screwing the customer. I stopped going to my local T-Mobile store 
due to such ill treatment. I found I could get the hardware I wanted from 
other sources (e.g. the Web and even Walmart) and negotiate the service 
by phoning in to customer service.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rich Schinnell]

Date:Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:09:08 -0400
From:"Eric S. Sande" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop
  One hundred percent
money back guarantee.  That goes for just about everything we
sell.

If we can't do it we won't and we'll tell you why.  If we can do it
we guarantee you'll be happy with the product.

If you are mistreated by a representative I want to know names,
dates, and specifics.  That forms no part of our business model.

Yes, we are a big company.  But anyone who works for Verizon is
accountable down to the last detail.


I sure wish I had known that you worked for verizon before I had to
writ the to ceo of Verizon to solve a problem.

I had a good Palm Tungsten T3 and a verizon cell phone, both worked
great but I kept losing my pants with all the weight on my belt.

I went to the verizon store and decided to buy a Palm Treo 700P so that
I could have both my palm data and phone in one.

Just about ready to sign when the salesman said that he could not sell
me the Treo without a data plan for another $50 a month on top of my $40
for the phone plan..

Whoa, I said that I do not want any data, web or email on my phone.
he said that his manager would not approve the sale without the data plan.

sorry, I said goodby and went to "compusa" who sold sprint Treo 700P and
got my service.  I was disappointed as I have my phones with verizon and
have been a Fios customer at the mid level for a long time.

Bottom line. The ceo waved my early termination fee and that was the last
I heard of it but he did say that the salesman was wrong.  I could have
bought the phone without the data plan.  but it was too late then.

YMMV
Rich 



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

Cable can do.  Why else would Cox and Comcast be working with them to
implement the so called p4p.  You seem to have the same problem with
spreading FUD about cable as you do about windows.

Mike

On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> Doing clever stuff, like P4P (which cable can't do), will make DSL and
> FiOS capacity go even further.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Note I said, one fiber optic cable.  Initially threw me for a 
>loop [yes bad pun], but the tech said there were multiple wave
>lenghts for transmit receive over the same fiber optic cable.

One optical cable can carry hundreds of different wavelengths of light 
and the companies that make the head-end equipment are constantly 
figuring out new ways to split things up to increase this capacity. Each 
wavelengths of light can be modulated independently. So each wavelength 
is equivalent to the single cable that the cable company is sharing with 
something like 500 individual subscribers.

I was previously speaking of DSL and FiOS interchangeably because for the 
topic under discussion they were similarly configured. While cable shares 
the capacity of the cable over 500 subscribers, DSL and FiOS provide each 
customer with a dedicated circuit to the CO. At that point you will be 
connected to a circuit that is sharing capacity with other subscribers, 
but at that point the  capacity is much greater.

Doing clever stuff, like P4P (which cable can't do), will make DSL and 
FiOS capacity go even further.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Mealey III]

Vicky asked how FiOS works.  Here is what I understand is
the basics:

In your neighborhood there is a 'pad' that some number of
fiber optical cables are laid to.  The cable is interesting
it is a single cable in a sheath that has a copper drain 
ground wire.  That wire is what they send the signal down
for the 'Miss Utility' crews to come around to find it for
other work.

I can't recall if it is single mode or multimode fiber.

The boxes at your house are the 'ONT' or Optical Network
Terminator (or possibly terminatino), a battery with a charging
subsystem (widget that plugs into power), and in the ONT there
is the pull off for transfer to 'POTS' lines and traditional
cable service over coxail cable.

Note I said, one fiber optic cable.  Initially threw me for a 
loop [yes bad pun], but the tech said there were multiple wave
lenghts for transmit receive over the same fiber optic cable.

I have heard it is ATM, an OC-3 which is about 155MB or so,
and carved up to 51 MB for internet, 51MB for upto four phone
lines, and 51MB for TV.  Have not been able to verify that.

All rumor of course and unless your pull'in my teeth I
won't fess up to knowing more.

Kind Regarsd,

John Mealey

-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vicky Staubly
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 2:11 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop


On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Tom Piwowar wrote:
>> Vicky you prove my point.
>
> I thought she proved mine. She is in effect in a straightjacket and this
> prevents her getting DSL. Given complete freedon she would get DSL.

Given _complete_ freedom, I said I'd choose FiOS. I haven't seen
any technical discussion of how FiOS operates, but I don't think it's
simply "DSL over Fiber".

For a few years, we had a farm in Maryland, and our only broadband
choice there was Verizon DSL. It worked reasonably well, though
the maximum bandwidth (640k down, 90k up) was less than we're
getting with Comcast (which does vary, but the local (our end)
variation seems less than the remote (server end) variation).

That said, my criteria for getting internet service would be a
combination of factors: total bandwidth, bandwidth per dollar,
reliability (which is a combination of the physical media and
how well it's maintained by the provider). Unfortunately, that
last factor varies from cable company to cable company, and phone
company to phone company, and even within a given company's territory.
So, you just have to go on word of mouth, from people as close
to you as you can find.

And, of course, "bandwidth" is measured in "really available"
bandwidth, not "advertised bandwidth". And that can be even
harder to find accurate numbers for, even more so than for
"reliability".

Errr... I'll stop babbling now... All I meant to say was "FiOS,
not DSL".

-- 
Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

Vicky!  You are letting silly things like facts get in the way!  Tom has
spoken...DSL is better it doesn't matter what you've actually experienced.
There are no other factors...Tom's word is law! I'm calling all my poor sap
cable modem using friends who are actually getting 20mbit right now and
telling them to switch to DSL because at any moment now Qwest could go from
1.5 to 85mbit!  Well, in theory.

Mike

On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Vicky Staubly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> For a few years, we had a farm in Maryland, and our only broadband
> choice there was Verizon DSL. It worked reasonably well, though
> the maximum bandwidth (640k down, 90k up) was less than we're
> getting with Comcast (which does vary, but the local (our end)
> variation seems less than the remote (server end) variation).
>
> That said, my criteria for getting internet service would be a
> combination of factors: total bandwidth, bandwidth per dollar,
> reliability (which is a combination of the physical media and
> how well it's maintained by the provider). Unfortunately, that
> last factor varies from cable company to cable company, and phone
> company to phone company, and even within a given company's territory.
> So, you just have to go on word of mouth, from people as close
> to you as you can find.
>
> And, of course, "bandwidth" is measured in "really available"
> bandwidth, not "advertised bandwidth". And that can be even
> harder to find accurate numbers for, even more so than for
> "reliability".
>
> Errr... I'll stop babbling now... All I meant to say was "FiOS,
> not DSL".
>
> --
> Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Vicky Staubly]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Tom Piwowar wrote:

Vicky you prove my point.


I thought she proved mine. She is in effect in a straightjacket and this
prevents her getting DSL. Given complete freedon she would get DSL.


Given _complete_ freedom, I said I'd choose FiOS. I haven't seen
any technical discussion of how FiOS operates, but I don't think it's
simply "DSL over Fiber".

For a few years, we had a farm in Maryland, and our only broadband
choice there was Verizon DSL. It worked reasonably well, though
the maximum bandwidth (640k down, 90k up) was less than we're
getting with Comcast (which does vary, but the local (our end)
variation seems less than the remote (server end) variation).

That said, my criteria for getting internet service would be a
combination of factors: total bandwidth, bandwidth per dollar,
reliability (which is a combination of the physical media and
how well it's maintained by the provider). Unfortunately, that
last factor varies from cable company to cable company, and phone
company to phone company, and even within a given company's territory.
So, you just have to go on word of mouth, from people as close
to you as you can find.

And, of course, "bandwidth" is measured in "really available"
bandwidth, not "advertised bandwidth". And that can be even
harder to find accurate numbers for, even more so than for
"reliability".

Errr... I'll stop babbling now... All I meant to say was "FiOS,
not DSL".

--
Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Eric S. Sande]

I wish I lived in one of those cities you speak of with good DSL.


I never knock the competition.  All I can say is that in Verizon
territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable
facsimile.

If we can't deliver it we'll tell you we can't.  And why.

We'd rather sell you FiOS, but the network buildout is not yet
complete.  We'll tell you that too.

Our policy is not to promise what we can't deliver.  We don't
push the envelope on line length or loop quality.  Yes, we know
that our copper network is sometimes marginal as far as digital
signalling.  That is why we perform loop qualification.

Even if all the numbers come up good and we install DSL, if
it doesn't work to spec you owe us nothing.  One hundred percent
money back guarantee.  That goes for just about everything we
sell.

If we can't do it we won't and we'll tell you why.  If we can do it
we guarantee you'll be happy with the product.

If you are mistreated by a representative I want to know names,
dates, and specifics.  That forms no part of our business model.

Yes, we are a big company.  But anyone who works for Verizon is
accountable down to the last detail.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

Again you talk in theories while I focus on real world.  My DSL does
fluctuate, down almost always.  I do get wild lows for no reason.  The
choice to take cable in this city is definitely not for the las vegas
minded, but for the money conscious and prudent.  It's DSL that the people
who don't care about throwing their money down a hole use, they play the
odds in this town that maybe this time when I use my connection it'll be
near what I'm actually paying for.  I wish I lived in one of those cities
you speak of with good DSL.

But it shows that you speak in opinion, not fact.  In theory, not practice.


Mike

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Like I said before, perhaps Qwest and Cox are backwards here, but I have
> >never seen my DSL speed go above my slotted speed of 1.5, and almost
> without
> >fail, my real speed is never above 1.1mbit.  Does DSL in other areas, if
> you
> >pay for say 3mbit go up to 6 on a regular basis?
>
> No. DSL does not work that way. You get the speed you pay for plus
> usually a small margin. You get it reliably. You don't get wild highs and
> lows.
>
> I have never thought about it this way, but perhaps the choice between
> cable and DSL is personality based. If you have a Las Vegas type of
> personality you go for cable, if you are a Cape May type you go for DSL.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Vicky you prove my point.

Stewart

At 06:21 PM 3/14/2008, you wrote:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Tom you would fail miserably as a psychologist.


Yes. I've been to Atlantic City once. I did no gambling at all
but played on the beach. I have cable internet. Of course, the
fact that DSL isn't offered in our area may have something to do
with it. :-) Nor FiOS... which I'd probably get if it was available.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Vicky Staubly]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Tom you would fail miserably as a psychologist.


Yes. I've been to Atlantic City once. I did no gambling at all
but played on the beach. I have cable internet. Of course, the
fact that DSL isn't offered in our area may have something to do
with it. :-) Nor FiOS... which I'd probably get if it was available.


At 05:33 PM 3/14/2008, you wrote:

No. DSL does not work that way. You get the speed you pay for plus
usually a small margin. You get it reliably. You don't get wild highs and
lows.

I have never thought about it this way, but perhaps the choice between
cable and DSL is personality based. If you have a Las Vegas type of
personality you go for cable, if you are a Cape May type you go for DSL.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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--
Vicky Staubly   http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Tom you would fail miserably as a psychologist.

Stewart


At 05:33 PM 3/14/2008, you wrote:

No. DSL does not work that way. You get the speed you pay for plus
usually a small margin. You get it reliably. You don't get wild highs and
lows.

I have never thought about it this way, but perhaps the choice between
cable and DSL is personality based. If you have a Las Vegas type of
personality you go for cable, if you are a Cape May type you go for DSL.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Like I said before, perhaps Qwest and Cox are backwards here, but I have
>never seen my DSL speed go above my slotted speed of 1.5, and almost without
>fail, my real speed is never above 1.1mbit.  Does DSL in other areas, if you
>pay for say 3mbit go up to 6 on a regular basis?

No. DSL does not work that way. You get the speed you pay for plus 
usually a small margin. You get it reliably. You don't get wild highs and 
lows.

I have never thought about it this way, but perhaps the choice between 
cable and DSL is personality based. If you have a Las Vegas type of 
personality you go for cable, if you are a Cape May type you go for DSL.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

I saw this when I had Coxdownloading large files from neighbors on the
same node especially.  I was paying for 5mbit but could get 10 on some
things.  I think out here they solved the 'neighbor' problem by making sure
each node can handle the max what each person is paying for so at the least
everyone gets their speed they have paid for, on the other end as the load
goes down the speed of the remaining users go up dramatically.  People
paying for max 18 mbit get 25 on a regular basis.

Like I said before, perhaps Qwest and Cox are backwards here, but I have
never seen my DSL speed go above my slotted speed of 1.5, and almost without
fail, my real speed is never above 1.1mbit.  Does DSL in other areas, if you
pay for say 3mbit go up to 6 on a regular basis?

Mike

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Interesting story in the NYT shows that it really does help to know
> something about the technology you are subscribing to. Verizon has
> figured out how to increse media downloads speeds 60 to 600 percent on
> DSL line while greatly decreasing the load on their system. So they don't
> have to degrade their customers service like Comcast has to. I also found
> out the wireless broadband works like cable broadband, not DSL...
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-P2P-Verizon.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
>
> Verizon with researchers at Yale University collaborated to enable faster
> peer-to-peer downloads of media files while lowering costs for
> participating ISPs...  when an ISP cooperates with a file-sharing
> software maker they can speed downloads an average of 60 percent --
> though collaboration boosted some downloads six-fold on fast Internet
> connections.
>
> ''It will definitely show ISPs that the problem is not peer-to-peer
> technology, the problem is how you deploy it. It is possible to deploy
> P2P to their advantage.''
>
> In a traditional P2P network, if a Verizon customer downloads a file,
> only 6.3 percent of the data will come from another Verizon customer in
> the same city, said Doug Pasko, senior technologist at the company. In
> the ''P4P'' trial, 58 percent of the data came from nearby Verizon users,
> vastly reducing the company's cost of carrying the traffic.
>
> Levitan said the technology might be ready for use by next month
>
> A problem the ''P4P'' system does not address is that file-sharing
> software makes extensive use of a customer's connection, both for uploads
> and downloads. This is not much a problem for phone companies like
> Verizon, but it is for cable companies, where up to 500 households share
> capacity on the local coaxial cable.
>
> Verizon's acceptance of peer-to-peer traffic also doesn't extend to its
> wireless networks: it bans the technology for users of its laptop cards.
> Much like cable modem users, wireless users share download capacity with
> others in the neighborhood.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

Interesting story in the NYT shows that it really does help to know 
something about the technology you are subscribing to. Verizon has 
figured out how to increse media downloads speeds 60 to 600 percent on 
DSL line while greatly decreasing the load on their system. So they don't 
have to degrade their customers service like Comcast has to. I also found 
out the wireless broadband works like cable broadband, not DSL...


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-P2P-Verizon.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Verizon with researchers at Yale University collaborated to enable faster 
peer-to-peer downloads of media files while lowering costs for 
participating ISPs...  when an ISP cooperates with a file-sharing 
software maker they can speed downloads an average of 60 percent -- 
though collaboration boosted some downloads six-fold on fast Internet 
connections.

''It will definitely show ISPs that the problem is not peer-to-peer 
technology, the problem is how you deploy it. It is possible to deploy 
P2P to their advantage.''

In a traditional P2P network, if a Verizon customer downloads a file, 
only 6.3 percent of the data will come from another Verizon customer in 
the same city, said Doug Pasko, senior technologist at the company. In 
the ''P4P'' trial, 58 percent of the data came from nearby Verizon users, 
vastly reducing the company's cost of carrying the traffic.

Levitan said the technology might be ready for use by next month

A problem the ''P4P'' system does not address is that file-sharing 
software makes extensive use of a customer's connection, both for uploads 
and downloads. This is not much a problem for phone companies like 
Verizon, but it is for cable companies, where up to 500 households share 
capacity on the local coaxial cable.

Verizon's acceptance of peer-to-peer traffic also doesn't extend to its 
wireless networks: it bans the technology for users of its laptop cards. 
Much like cable modem users, wireless users share download capacity with 
others in the neighborhood.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Pat Fauquet]

On Mar 14, 2008, at 9:20 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote:


I have helped several of my clients set up Internet service using
mobile broadband cards.


An interesting alternative.

So what data rate did you get for $60/mo. ADSL or SDSL?


Unfortunately, I was not able to play with her computer enough to  
really test it out, but here are some things we noticed;


The speed was good enough to be able to use Apple's video iChat in Mac  
OS X 10.4 Tiger both ways at full screen with very little pixelation.  
It was fast enough to stream YouTube easily. She did not complain  
about slow download or uploads.




Does the data rate drop when it is raining? (As happens with cellular
service.)


 I did not observe it during rain.



Is mobile broadband going to be available in any areas where wired
broadband is not? I.e. is this going to solve anyone's access  
problem or

is this just an alternative way to span the "last mile?"

In working with clients -- and I work with people all over the country  
-- the ones who have resorted to using this method of accessing the  
Internet, have found cellular wireless to be faster, cheaper and more  
reliable than satellite Internet service. It is not as cheap as  using  
DSL or cable services, but it is generally available if there is cell  
phone service in the area.


You many want to check out the information available from various  
wireless carriers.



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>It's QwestI know I'm being shafted.

Quest's revenues and market value are way down. Stock price is less than 
1/10th of what it was in 2000. I would think somebody would buy out these 
yahoos and put them out of their misery.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>I have helped several of my clients set up Internet service using  
>mobile broadband cards.

An interesting alternative.

So what data rate did you get for $60/mo. ADSL or SDSL?

Does the data rate drop when it is raining? (As happens with cellular 
service.)

Is mobile broadband going to be available in any areas where wired 
broadband is not? I.e. is this going to solve anyone's access problem or 
is this just an alternative way to span the "last mile?"


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[John Duncan Yoyo]

With customer service like that I guess they don't want profits.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 2:36 AM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's QwestI know I'm being shafted.  I also know without a doubt they
>  are not upgrading anything anywhere in the valley.  So no, it doesn't really
>  matter what the theoretical speed is in Omaha.  I had a Qwest rep tell me
>  the last time I called about their upgrading or not tell me I should be
>  happy I'm not on AOL dial up, that 1 megabit is 'fast enough for anyone and
>  I should stop complaining'.
>
>  Mike
>
>
>  On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  >
>  >
>  > You mean it is better to not even know that you are being shafted?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>
>
>
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-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

It's QwestI know I'm being shafted.  I also know without a doubt they
are not upgrading anything anywhere in the valley.  So no, it doesn't really
matter what the theoretical speed is in Omaha.  I had a Qwest rep tell me
the last time I called about their upgrading or not tell me I should be
happy I'm not on AOL dial up, that 1 megabit is 'fast enough for anyone and
I should stop complaining'.

Mike

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> You mean it is better to not even know that you are being shafted?
>
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Pat Fauquet]

I have helped several of my clients set up Internet service using  
mobile broadband cards. In fact, there is an article on my blog with  
links to a recent Macworld article. The information would apply to PCs  
as well as Macs. There is also information about cellular routers  
which allow you to use the card along with the router to share the  
Internet connection with multiple computers.


See 


By the way, we also set up a card with my daughter's MacBook Pro while  
she was in the hospital for several months of bedrest while awaiting  
the birth of a son. We found that the card was almost as fast as her  
low speed Cox Cable Internet service. Her service was through Sprint  
and cost about $60 per month.


Pat Fauquet

On Mar 13, 2008, at 8:38 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

My eyes are always open and I am constantly looking at the  
technology and how it is working.


Would I buy DSL again?  Yes in a different location and with a  
different provider.


When I lived in TN I had Bellsouth DSL and it was hands down better  
than the Cable provider (happens to be the same company I presently  
have)


I moved here and found that the phone company cannot and does not  
have superior service.  I am sticking with Cable.  If another  
provider comes to town and we have another choice I will look at them.


One of my members has Wild Blue (satellite from Dish) and they are  
OK with it.  But since they cannot get cable and cannot get DSL they  
will put up with it.  High priced, lags and not fast either.


If (next time we get a snow accumulation here) FIOS comes to town I  
will look seriously at it.


But like I said it will be the next Ice Age before that happens.

Stewart


At 07:22 PM 3/13/2008, you wrote:

You mean it is better to not even know that you are being shafted?

My take on it is that it is good to know what the technology can  
do. This
makes you a fully informed shopper. I agree that you need to be  
informed
about what providers are actually providing and buy what currently  
works
best. But if the service you buy is technically inferior that tells  
you
to keep your eyes open because it is very likely that something  
better

will come along.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

My eyes are always open and I am constantly looking at the technology 
and how it is working.


Would I buy DSL again?  Yes in a different location and with a 
different provider.


When I lived in TN I had Bellsouth DSL and it was hands down better 
than the Cable provider (happens to be the same company I presently have)


I moved here and found that the phone company cannot and does not 
have superior service.  I am sticking with Cable.  If another 
provider comes to town and we have another choice I will look at them.


One of my members has Wild Blue (satellite from Dish) and they are OK 
with it.  But since they cannot get cable and cannot get DSL they 
will put up with it.  High priced, lags and not fast either.


If (next time we get a snow accumulation here) FIOS comes to town I 
will look seriously at it.


But like I said it will be the next Ice Age before that happens.

Stewart


At 07:22 PM 3/13/2008, you wrote:

You mean it is better to not even know that you are being shafted?

My take on it is that it is good to know what the technology can do. This
makes you a fully informed shopper. I agree that you need to be informed
about what providers are actually providing and buy what currently works
best. But if the service you buy is technically inferior that tells you
to keep your eyes open because it is very likely that something better
will come along.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>If I'm stuck with bad management your assertions that 'this is true' doesn't
>really matter.  Reality matters, not what ifs.  That's why I suggested
>asking the neighbors for *real* experiences and not just going by so called
>'truths of the system'.

You mean it is better to not even know that you are being shafted?

My take on it is that it is good to know what the technology can do. This 
makes you a fully informed shopper. I agree that you need to be informed 
about what providers are actually providing and buy what currently works 
best. But if the service you buy is technically inferior that tells you 
to keep your eyes open because it is very likely that something better 
will come along.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

If I'm stuck with bad management your assertions that 'this is true' doesn't
really matter.  Reality matters, not what ifs.  That's why I suggested
asking the neighbors for *real* experiences and not just going by so called
'truths of the system'.

Mike

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 6:08 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >> DSL is not a shared line, so provides a fairly constant rate. Cable
> >> promises the moon, but puts the entire neighborhood on the same wire so
> >> it delivers dirt when too many people are using it
>
> >This is not true for all areas, may be true for the place you live, here
> the
> >complete opposite is true.  I've never had consistent speed from DSL
> since
> >i've had it.  Cox must keep their nodes near enough that this same
> wire...
>
> This is true for all areas. It is the physical structure of the system.
> Your DSL line from your location to the CO is not shared. What happens at
> the CO is another matter. No technology is resistant to bad management.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Our cable system can deliver 6 mps with better reliability than the 
>phone company can that is sad.

There is no technology that can not be made high cost and low quality by 
bad management. Nevertheless it is worthwhile to consider what the 
technology can accomplish so that we know how much the jerks who manage 
it have fallen short.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>> DSL is not a shared line, so provides a fairly constant rate. Cable
>> promises the moon, but puts the entire neighborhood on the same wire so
>> it delivers dirt when too many people are using it

>This is not true for all areas, may be true for the place you live, here the
>complete opposite is true.  I've never had consistent speed from DSL since
>i've had it.  Cox must keep their nodes near enough that this same wire...

This is true for all areas. It is the physical structure of the system. 
Your DSL line from your location to the CO is not shared. What happens at 
the CO is another matter. No technology is resistant to bad management.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Mason Miller]

Verizon offers DSL, Satellite and Fiber(FIOS).

Mason

On Mar 12, 2008, at 10:50 PM, Judy Cosler wrote:


isn't Verizon DSL
and Comcast is cable modem??

starpower is cable modem

DC Cavalier wrote:
I really haven't done a LOT of looking around but of the looking  
around I
have done, I really LOVE Vonage telephone and its services and the  
fact I
can use it anywhere I go. Right now, the $28 a month for it, and  
$40 a month
for Verizon DSL, is what I guess I will stick with for the time  
being. I am
a sports junkie and unfortunately, Comcast sports package is not on  
par wiht
what DirecTV offers where I can get most all  most major cities  
regional
sports stations. Thats the major reason I choose not to subscribe  
to Comcast

and its bundle of phone, internet, and television.

But if someone can suggest a company that operates a DSL service  
that is NOT

Comcast or Verizon I'd welcome it.

Chris in DC

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if  
that is
untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they  
were

talking about?

If you go to Verizon's web site and click on the "Terms and  
Conditions"
link you will see in several places that the terms require  
"Verizon voice

service." So refusing to give you a better deal due to your dry line
would be consistent behavior.

So what leverage do you have? Is the only thing you get from  
Verizon the

DSL? Have you checked on alternative providers (e.g. at
BroadbandReports). Will any of them give you a better deal? Can  
you use
switching to another provider as a reason Verizon should give you  
a price

cut?




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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[b_s-wilk]

Chris

How fast is your Verizon DSL? What is the monthly charge? Are you in DC? 
Have you spoken to more than one CSR at Verizon? When one Customer 
service rep gives you the 'wrong' answer, call back and get a different 
CSR! Dry loop--unbundled Internet-only without land line--can be much 
more expensive than Internet plus basic phone service. Comcast does the 
same with their pricing. Bundles are much cheaper than Internet alone 
which costs about $60/mo for Comcast.


I have basic DSL at $15/mo, same as when we first signed up and not much 
more than our dialup cost back then. 3Mbps is $30/mo. My combined DSL 
and land line bill is $32/mo, but I use a Verizon/MCI card for long 
distance, or my cell phone. Did you know that Verizon basic phone 
service starts at $5.92/mo? BTW, we negotiated a lower rate in November, 
after they attempted to lock in a price increase--you can too!


Betty


I have had for Verizon DSL for about six years now. Pretty much I have had
no problem with the service.

A little over a year and a half ago I changed my phone service to Vonage but
kept the Verizon DSL.

The DSL service has continued to work fine, but what I am paying for my DSL
is still the same as back then, roughly $39 a year. When I called Verizon to
drop my price to the lower prices that are charging now, the customer
service line was I was not eligible for the lower price because I had what
they called a dry loop line (or something like that) and not a Verizon phone
line.

Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
talking about?

I really do NOT want to change my service to Comcast and cable/modem as I
have DirecTV and don't need both.

Thanks in advance for answers.



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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Judy Cosler]

isn't Verizon DSL
and Comcast is cable modem??

starpower is cable modem

DC Cavalier wrote:

I really haven't done a LOT of looking around but of the looking around I
have done, I really LOVE Vonage telephone and its services and the fact I
can use it anywhere I go. Right now, the $28 a month for it, and $40 a month
for Verizon DSL, is what I guess I will stick with for the time being. I am
a sports junkie and unfortunately, Comcast sports package is not on par wiht
what DirecTV offers where I can get most all  most major cities regional
sports stations. Thats the major reason I choose not to subscribe to Comcast
and its bundle of phone, internet, and television.

But if someone can suggest a company that operates a DSL service that is NOT
Comcast or Verizon I'd welcome it.

Chris in DC

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
talking about?


If you go to Verizon's web site and click on the "Terms and Conditions"
link you will see in several places that the terms require "Verizon voice
service." So refusing to give you a better deal due to your dry line
would be consistent behavior.

So what leverage do you have? Is the only thing you get from Verizon the
DSL? Have you checked on alternative providers (e.g. at
BroadbandReports). Will any of them give you a better deal? Can you use
switching to another provider as a reason Verizon should give you a price
cut?




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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[DC Cavalier]

I really haven't done a LOT of looking around but of the looking around I
have done, I really LOVE Vonage telephone and its services and the fact I
can use it anywhere I go. Right now, the $28 a month for it, and $40 a month
for Verizon DSL, is what I guess I will stick with for the time being. I am
a sports junkie and unfortunately, Comcast sports package is not on par wiht
what DirecTV offers where I can get most all  most major cities regional
sports stations. Thats the major reason I choose not to subscribe to Comcast
and its bundle of phone, internet, and television.

But if someone can suggest a company that operates a DSL service that is NOT
Comcast or Verizon I'd welcome it.

Chris in DC

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
> >untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
> >talking about?
>
> If you go to Verizon's web site and click on the "Terms and Conditions"
> link you will see in several places that the terms require "Verizon voice
> service." So refusing to give you a better deal due to your dry line
> would be consistent behavior.
>
> So what leverage do you have? Is the only thing you get from Verizon the
> DSL? Have you checked on alternative providers (e.g. at
> BroadbandReports). Will any of them give you a better deal? Can you use
> switching to another provider as a reason Verizon should give you a price
> cut?


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

This is not true for all areas, may be true for the place you live, here the
complete opposite is true.  I've never had consistent speed from DSL since
i've had it.  Cox must keep their nodes near enough that this same wire
policy doesn't exist.  In the last year or so, cable speeds have done
nothing but skyrocket while DSL has gotten slower.

Check with your neighbors who may have different services, speed may not be
your end all beat all option, ask about customer service also.

Mike

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> DSL is not a shared line, so provides a fairly constant rate. Cable
> promises the moon, but puts the entire neighborhood on the same wire so
> it delivers dirt when too many people are using it.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Yes but the phone companies must be willing to invest in the hardware 
and many local/piecemeal phone systems won't do it.


I live less than 2 miles from my switch (As the bird flies closer to 
1 mile) and they could not deliver 6mps with reliability, and had to 
cut it back to 1.5.


Our cable system can deliver 6 mps with better reliability than the 
phone company can that is sad.


Stewart


At 08:02 PM 3/12/2008, you wrote:

Nope. The newest format, VHDSL2, provides up to 250 Mbps full duplex over
twisted-pair copper. It was designed to work over POTS lines. Max
distance from the CO is 3 miles. At that distance the data rate drops to
4 Mbps.

Over fiber, FiOS can hit 2488 Mbps downstream, half that upstream.

Look at Wikipedia "List of Device Bandwidths." The fastest DSL and FiOS
services are faster than the fastest cable services.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>I was also thinking of terms.  I was of the understanding that true
>DSL...the swtiching of the digital to analog to run on long copper lines
>maxes around 6mbit.

Nope. The newest format, VHDSL2, provides up to 250 Mbps full duplex over 
twisted-pair copper. It was designed to work over POTS lines. Max 
distance from the CO is 3 miles. At that distance the data rate drops to 
4 Mbps.

Over fiber, FiOS can hit 2488 Mbps downstream, half that upstream.

Look at Wikipedia "List of Device Bandwidths." The fastest DSL and FiOS 
services are faster than the fastest cable services.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>whether or not speed varies may depend on lots of things (including how
>many neighbors are using the service --- but, can't remember
>whether that's cable  or DSL)

DSL is not a shared line, so provides a fairly constant rate. Cable 
promises the moon, but puts the entire neighborhood on the same wire so 
it delivers dirt when too many people are using it.


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

That is only supposed to happen with cable and then only when their 
nodes are too far apart.


Stewart


At 06:37 PM 3/12/2008, you wrote:

whether or not speed varies may depend on lots of things (including how
many neighbors are using the service --- but, can't remember
whether that's cable  or DSL)

I have had v. few outages with STarpower.
my rates, however, are too high!
need to do a bit of bargaining there!!!


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

Well I can only speak in my case.  Both Qwest (the worst telco in the world)
and Cox offer better deals for all three (tv, internet and phone) then if I
bought two from one and one from another or any combination.  Cox is light
years  ahead of qwest in terms of service and speed.  I view any company
that makes me sign a contract as one that is not confidant in it's
services.  I can call Cox and get service today and cancel them ANYTIME.
Qwest forces service agreements.

As far as cable being 'shared' and DSL not being shared I've come to believe
that at least here in Phoenix that this is a canard spread by DSL
companies.  My speed varied with both, but since Qwest maxes at 1.2mbit in
my location, if I lose 50% speed i'm down to almost a crawl.   Cox is maxing
around 20mbit now...if I lose 50% I'm still at 10mbit.  In five years I was
out maybe for four hours with cable internet, qwest has been down perhaps an
hour and a half in the last year or so.  Comparing the two companies here
who provide these services there is no competitionQwest fell far behind
in all areas.  Qwest DNS was out at one point early on, I called tech
support and the guy on the other end didn't know what a DNS server was.
This is typical.  All these things are anecdotal, I've never used verizon or
comcast but have read numerous horror stories on both.

I was also thinking of terms.  I was of the understanding that true
DSL...the swtiching of the digital to analog to run on long copper lines
maxes around 6mbit.  Verizone while selling it under the term DSL,  is it
not faster then that?  Is what Verizon sells really DSL?  Is it closer to
what cable companies sell?  Both run on fiber lines, either to a box in your
neighborhood or to the curb.  Does the argument for shared vs not shared
still stand?

Mike
I
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >You will always get a better deal if you get all the services one company
> >provides.
>
> Is that really true, or just a come-on to get customers to sign an
> expensive long-term contract? Are these plans not full of minimum
> requirements and penalty clauses for early termination or even changes in
> service plan?
>
> >You can also just switch to comcast internet without getting any
> >other service, although you will pay more then if you get their other
> >services.  On the other end, if you are getting DSL speeds, I can't
> imagine
> >comcast won't be 2-4 times faster.
>
> Does speed not vary with time of day? Doesn't cable have more frequent
> outages than DSL?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Judy Cosler]

whether or not speed varies may depend on lots of things (including how
many neighbors are using the service --- but, can't remember
whether that's cable  or DSL)

I have had v. few outages with STarpower.
my rates, however, are too high!
need to do a bit of bargaining there!!!

Tom Piwowar wrote:

You will always get a better deal if you get all the services one company
provides.



Is that really true, or just a come-on to get customers to sign an
expensive long-term contract? Are these plans not full of minimum
requirements and penalty clauses for early termination or even changes in
service plan?



You can also just switch to comcast internet without getting any
other service, although you will pay more then if you get their other
services.  On the other end, if you are getting DSL speeds, I can't imagine
comcast won't be 2-4 times faster.



Does speed not vary with time of day? Doesn't cable have more frequent
outages than DSL?


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>You will always get a better deal if you get all the services one company
>provides.  

Is that really true, or just a come-on to get customers to sign an 
expensive long-term contract? Are these plans not full of minimum 
requirements and penalty clauses for early termination or even changes in 
service plan?

>You can also just switch to comcast internet without getting any
>other service, although you will pay more then if you get their other
>services.  On the other end, if you are getting DSL speeds, I can't imagine
>comcast won't be 2-4 times faster.

Does speed not vary with time of day? Doesn't cable have more frequent 
outages than DSL?


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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[mike]

You will always get a better deal if you get all the services one company
provides.  You can also just switch to comcast internet without getting any
other service, although you will pay more then if you get their other
services.  On the other end, if you are getting DSL speeds, I can't imagine
comcast won't be 2-4 times faster.

Mike

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
> >untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
> >talking about?
>
> If you go to Verizon's web site and click on the "Terms and Conditions"
> link you will see in several places that the terms require "Verizon voice
> service." So refusing to give you a better deal due to your dry line
> would be consistent behavior.
>
> So what leverage do you have? Is the only thing you get from Verizon the
> DSL? Have you checked on alternative providers (e.g. at
> BroadbandReports). Will any of them give you a better deal? Can you use
> switching to another provider as a reason Verizon should give you a price
> cut?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[Tom Piwowar]

>Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
>untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
>talking about?

If you go to Verizon's web site and click on the "Terms and Conditions" 
link you will see in several places that the terms require "Verizon voice 
service." So refusing to give you a better deal due to your dry line 
would be consistent behavior.

So what leverage do you have? Is the only thing you get from Verizon the 
DSL? Have you checked on alternative providers (e.g. at 
BroadbandReports). Will any of them give you a better deal? Can you use 
switching to another provider as a reason Verizon should give you a price 
cut?


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[CGUYS] Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop

[DC Cavalier]

I have had for Verizon DSL for about six years now. Pretty much I have had
no problem with the service.

A little over a year and a half ago I changed my phone service to Vonage but
kept the Verizon DSL.

The DSL service has continued to work fine, but what I am paying for my DSL
is still the same as back then, roughly $39 a year. When I called Verizon to
drop my price to the lower prices that are charging now, the customer
service line was I was not eligible for the lower price because I had what
they called a dry loop line (or something like that) and not a Verizon phone
line.

Can anyone confirm this as a likely fact, or does it sound as if that is
untrue or the customer service rep simply doesn't know what they were
talking about?

I really do NOT want to change my service to Comcast and cable/modem as I
have DirecTV and don't need both.

Thanks in advance for answers.

Chris in DC


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