Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-03 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
On jeu. 01 oct. 2015 à 18:48:08, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Thursday, October 01, 2015 02:11:29 PM Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > On Oct 01, 2015, at 07:47 PM, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> > >I am a bit worried that the team is handled behind closed walls.
> > 
> > I have no particular interest in either grabbing power nor in taking power
> > away from anybody, but I think there may be some value in making team
> > governance more transparent and democratic.  Two reasons come to mind:
> > 
> > No one person has to take the heat for uncomfortable decisions.  At some
> > point decisions have to be made for the good of the team, whether they're
> > technical or social.  What might be difficult for one person to decide can
> > be made easier when the burden of that decision can be shared among duly
> > elected representatives.
> > 
> > Team members can have more of a say --and more confidence in-- how the team
> > is run.  If you elect someone to a leadership role, you're giving your
> > support to them to make the tough decisions.  And you have the option of
> > voting them out at the next election.
> > 
> > I don't think any of that's controversial, given that the Debian project
> > itself is both transparent and democratic, and we always have those
> > governance rules to fall back on.  But that's a pretty heavyweight
> > bureaucracy.
> > 
> > Does it make sense to have some lightweight rules for the team?  Is there
> > precedence within other Debian teams?
> 
> I've been a team member since, I think, 2008.  This is the first time we've 
> had 
> anything like this come up that I recall.  I don't think we have a problem 
> with team members not having enough say as a general rule.
> 
> For the git migration, the people taking the time to do the work or pay 
> attention to the work and provide feedback are driving what happens when.  
> There's nothing that being a team administrator has to do with it.
> 
> With the exception of the DPL, Debian is not democratic.  It's doacratic.  
> Let's not mess with that.

I frankly disagree. GR is another example of democratic process in Debian.

Yes, do-it-o-craty is good, at some point, but this is exactly what brought
Thomas out. So nope, it's not enough.

I'm not a team member, but I think any team has to get some democratic
process inside it if you want it to be fair and efficient, even in hard
situations.

Cheers.

-- 
PEB


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-03 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
On sam. 03 oct. 2015 à 16:15:53, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> [Pierre-Elliott Bécue, 2015-10-03]
> > Yes, do-it-o-craty is good, at some point, but this is exactly what brought
> > Thomas out. So nope, it's not enough.
> 
> and if I didn't do it, it would be better because...
> It's easy to point fingers if it's not you who cleans after each mess.

You didn't get my point. As previously said, I heard and understood your
answer, I'm not trying to going back on what I said. But this new argument
about doitocraty VS. democracy is something interesting to discuss about.

I was meaning that Thomas probably acted as a doitocraty recommends to, and
that's what led to this situation, with him out of the team.

I beleive there is a need to create some democratic processes in a team,
that's all.

> /me (AKA dictator who'd love to give all his powers to someone else) who
> still stands by his decision and would do it again.
> The only regret is that I didn't do it a year ago.

I'm not able to judge on this, as I'm not aware of all the stories, neither
do I have enough experience.

-- 
PEB



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-03 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Pierre-Elliott Bécue, 2015-10-03]
> Yes, do-it-o-craty is good, at some point, but this is exactly what brought
> Thomas out. So nope, it's not enough.

and if I didn't do it, it would be better because...
It's easy to point fingers if it's not you who cleans after each mess.

/me (AKA dictator who'd love to give all his powers to someone else) who
still stands by his decision and would do it again.
The only regret is that I didn't do it a year ago.


PS sorry, I didn't want to send yet another email in this soap opera thread...
   anyway, the only way to revert this decision is to remove me from admins list
   (which is really easy, just declare that you will do at least 20% of
   what I did last 365 days and if other admins do not veto it, you're
   new dictator)
-- 
Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer
www.ozarowski.pl  www.griffith.cc   www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-02 Thread Vincent Bernat
 ❦  1 octobre 2015 18:48 -0400, Scott Kitterman  :

> For the git migration, the people taking the time to do the work or pay 
> attention to the work and provide feedback are driving what happens
> when.  

It's not possible to give feedback or help when we don't know anything
about the migration. I have asked about it several times [0] and got no
answer. I only know that Stefano is doing or will do the migration. I
don't know if there are difficulties, I don't know if there is
opposition or simply if he doesn't have time right now.

[0]: <87h9mc79fv@zoro.exoscale.ch>
 <87k2swh0l6@zoro.exoscale.ch>

> With the exception of the DPL, Debian is not democratic.  It's doacratic.  
> Let's not mess with that.

Unfortunately, in a _team_, we cannot do as we please. Thomas did try
and was kicked. He also maintains a lot of Python packages in
pkg-openstack and is seen as a bad team player by several members. He
did propose several times to help with the Git migration but never got
acknowledged.

I am glad and grateful that some people are involved in this Git
migration but as a team member, I would also be glad to be kept posted
about it.
-- 
Use data arrays to avoid repetitive control sequences.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
On jeu. 01 oct. 2015 à 08:09:51, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> [Pierre-Elliott Bécue, 2015-10-01]
> > Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
> > wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial trouble.
> > 
> > We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
> > packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something in
> 
> which packages? All of them are in OpenStack team and few that list
> Thomas as co-maintainer have other maintainers who can commit changes.
> 
> > experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.
> 
> I would not remove someone due to technical mistake (or several made not
> on purpose) - that's not the case here. I did that because I see no hope
> in change of behaviour (and I was warned about it from day one and I *did*
> try to change it several times).
> 
> There's something good that comes out of it, though:
> I was afraid to accept new members after two that caused more harm than
> good and now I have solution to that problem: everyone who wants to be
> in the team, automatically is! Yes, from now on we will not (or at least
> I will not) stop you from contributing if you don't have write access.
> No more "you cannot contribute, stay away, do not send patches" policy!
> Every new member can now send commits to me and I will push them to the
> repo (both svn/git and unstable). If you want write access, just bombard
> me with commits to review (the same way my sponsorees force me to ask
> them to join NM queue - just send contribution and learn from problems I
> pointed out). Thomas is the first person I asked to do that.

Thanks for your answer, I hope all this will go well.

Ack for the last part, but I'll have to finish my packages and become
maint/dev before I can do all of this.

Cheers,

-- 
PEB


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Oct 01, 2015, at 07:47 PM, Vincent Bernat wrote:

>I am a bit worried that the team is handled behind closed walls.

I have no particular interest in either grabbing power nor in taking power
away from anybody, but I think there may be some value in making team
governance more transparent and democratic.  Two reasons come to mind:

No one person has to take the heat for uncomfortable decisions.  At some point
decisions have to be made for the good of the team, whether they're technical
or social.  What might be difficult for one person to decide can be made
easier when the burden of that decision can be shared among duly elected
representatives.

Team members can have more of a say --and more confidence in-- how the team is
run.  If you elect someone to a leadership role, you're giving your support to
them to make the tough decisions.  And you have the option of voting them out
at the next election.

I don't think any of that's controversial, given that the Debian project
itself is both transparent and democratic, and we always have those governance
rules to fall back on.  But that's a pretty heavyweight bureaucracy.

Does it make sense to have some lightweight rules for the team?  Is there
precedence within other Debian teams?

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Vincent Bernat
 ❦ 30 septembre 2015 21:41 +0200, Thomas Goirand  :

> Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team. Those who don't agree
> (especially admins) please voice your concern. It is my view that this
> is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.

I am a bit worried that the team is handled behind closed walls. Zigo is
kicked for a few mistakes while he contributes to many Python packages
(not necessarily in the team due to him not wanting to use SVN) and the
decision was made by a few members.

Similarly, the information on the git transition seems to be distributed
only to some selected members. As a lambda contributor, I only get to
interpret the few flames that happen time to time about this subject.
-- 
O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.
-- Sir Walter Scott, "Marmion"


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Sandro Tosi
On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> Does it make sense to have some lightweight rules for the team?  Is there
> precedence within other Debian teams?

please, there's already enough bureaucracy. we have team admins, that
all we need

-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Scott Kitterman
On Thursday, October 01, 2015 02:11:29 PM Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Oct 01, 2015, at 07:47 PM, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> >I am a bit worried that the team is handled behind closed walls.
> 
> I have no particular interest in either grabbing power nor in taking power
> away from anybody, but I think there may be some value in making team
> governance more transparent and democratic.  Two reasons come to mind:
> 
> No one person has to take the heat for uncomfortable decisions.  At some
> point decisions have to be made for the good of the team, whether they're
> technical or social.  What might be difficult for one person to decide can
> be made easier when the burden of that decision can be shared among duly
> elected representatives.
> 
> Team members can have more of a say --and more confidence in-- how the team
> is run.  If you elect someone to a leadership role, you're giving your
> support to them to make the tough decisions.  And you have the option of
> voting them out at the next election.
> 
> I don't think any of that's controversial, given that the Debian project
> itself is both transparent and democratic, and we always have those
> governance rules to fall back on.  But that's a pretty heavyweight
> bureaucracy.
> 
> Does it make sense to have some lightweight rules for the team?  Is there
> precedence within other Debian teams?

I've been a team member since, I think, 2008.  This is the first time we've had 
anything like this come up that I recall.  I don't think we have a problem 
with team members not having enough say as a general rule.

For the git migration, the people taking the time to do the work or pay 
attention to the work and provide feedback are driving what happens when.  
There's nothing that being a team administrator has to do with it.

With the exception of the DPL, Debian is not democratic.  It's doacratic.  
Let's not mess with that.

Scott K

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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-10-01 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Pierre-Elliott Bécue, 2015-10-01]
> Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
> wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial trouble.
> 
> We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
> packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something in

which packages? All of them are in OpenStack team and few that list
Thomas as co-maintainer have other maintainers who can commit changes.

> experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.

I would not remove someone due to technical mistake (or several made not
on purpose) - that's not the case here. I did that because I see no hope
in change of behaviour (and I was warned about it from day one and I *did*
try to change it several times).

There's something good that comes out of it, though:
I was afraid to accept new members after two that caused more harm than
good and now I have solution to that problem: everyone who wants to be
in the team, automatically is! Yes, from now on we will not (or at least
I will not) stop you from contributing if you don't have write access.
No more "you cannot contribute, stay away, do not send patches" policy!
Every new member can now send commits to me and I will push them to the
repo (both svn/git and unstable). If you want write access, just bombard
me with commits to review (the same way my sponsorees force me to ask
them to join NM queue - just send contribution and learn from problems I
pointed out). Thomas is the first person I asked to do that.
-- 
Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer
www.ozarowski.pl  www.griffith.cc   www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Matthias Klose

kindergarten ...

On 30.09.2015 21:41, Thomas Goirand wrote:

Hi,

Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team. Those who don't agree
(especially admins) please voice your concern. It is my view that this
is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.

Thomas Goirand (zigo)





Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 09/30/2015 09:49 PM, Matthias Klose wrote:
> kindergarten ...

Indeed. We all have better things to do!

Thomas



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
> Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.

DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes

> is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.

I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in the
teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins into
accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to work
with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help with
any problems you might have with tools I wrote.
-- 
Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer
www.ozarowski.pl  www.griffith.cc   www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Ian Cordasco
On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue  wrote:
> On mer. 30 sept. 2015 à 23:13:26, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
>> [Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
>> > Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.
>>
>> DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes
>>
>> > is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.
>>
>> I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in the
>> teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins into
>> accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
>> As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to work
>> with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help with
>> any problems you might have with tools I wrote.
>
> Dear Piotr,
>
> Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
> wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial trouble.
>
> We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
> packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something in
> experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.
>
> Considering the potential trouble it'll lead to (as for an example it'll
> probably send my attempt to package mailman3 to nowhere), and the
> potential bad consequences for python team (some packages no longer
> maintained, etc), does it worth it?
>
> --
> PEB

Pierre,

I'm new to the team, mailing list, etc. (honestly, I never had a
chance to formally introduce myself to everyone) but it looks as if
Piotr has had several instances in the past where he's had to
discipline Thomas. I doubt this is an action that Piotr took lightly.
Further, I doubt those packages will suddenly go unmaintained.

Please continue working on mailman3, it will benefit the community far
more than the outcome of this apparent disciplinary action.

Cheers,
Ian



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
On mer. 30 sept. 2015 à 23:13:26, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> [Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
> > Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.
> 
> DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes
> 
> > is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.
> 
> I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in the
> teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins into
> accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
> As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to work
> with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help with
> any problems you might have with tools I wrote.

Dear Piotr,

Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial trouble.

We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something in
experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.

Considering the potential trouble it'll lead to (as for an example it'll
probably send my attempt to package mailman3 to nowhere), and the
potential bad consequences for python team (some packages no longer
maintained, etc), does it worth it?

-- 
PEB


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Scott Kitterman


On September 30, 2015 6:43:09 PM EDT, "Pierre-Elliott Bécue"  
wrote:
>Le 1 octobre 2015 00:25:55 GMT+02:00, Ian Cordasco
> a écrit :
>>On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue
>
>>wrote:
>>> On mer. 30 sept. 2015 à 23:13:26, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
 [Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
 > Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.

 DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes

 > is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.

 I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in
>>the
 teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins
>>into
 accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
 As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to
>>work
 with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help
>>with
 any problems you might have with tools I wrote.
>>>
>>> Dear Piotr,
>>>
>>> Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
>>> wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial
>>trouble.
>>>
>>> We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
>>> packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something
>>in
>>> experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.
>>>
>>> Considering the potential trouble it'll lead to (as for an example
>>it'll
>>> probably send my attempt to package mailman3 to nowhere), and the
>>> potential bad consequences for python team (some packages no longer
>>> maintained, etc), does it worth it?
>>>
>>> --
>>> PEB
>>
>>Pierre,
>>
>>I'm new to the team, mailing list, etc. (honestly, I never had a
>>chance to formally introduce myself to everyone) but it looks as if
>>Piotr has had several instances in the past where he's had to
>>discipline Thomas. I doubt this is an action that Piotr took lightly.
>>Further, I doubt those packages will suddenly go unmaintained.
>>
>>Please continue working on mailman3, it will benefit the community far
>>more than the outcome of this apparent disciplinary action.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Ian
>
>Dear Ian,
>
>I do not intend to stop working on it, but even if it is not the first
>time (I hope no one would take such an action for one isolated
>mistake), I strongly beleive that such removal from a team where mostly
>anyone is supposed to be at a same level should be calmly discussed and
>debated with mostly everybody of the team in order to reach a
>consensus.
>
>This decision looks like something decided just after an aggressive
>discussion about something which does not look that bad from where I
>sit.
>
>Wouldn't taking some time to think before this removal had been a
>better idea for everybody?

Not really.  Speaking as one of the team's other admins (even though p1otr has 
taken this all on himself), I fully support the action.

I agree it's unfortunate that it came to this, but I believe that, for now, 
it's for the best.  

If we're going to work as a team, then there has to be collaboration and a 
willingness to work within team norms.  Don't just judge this one case.  I 
believe it's best if Thomas takes a break from the team.  If he's ever going to 
be a part of it in the future, he's going to have to be more collaborative.

I'm not going to get in a long debate, but there comes a time in any volunteer 
group when you have to decide to cut your losses.

Hopefully we get this sorted after a short break from the team.

Scott K



Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Steve Langasek
Hi Pierre-Elliott,

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 12:04:14AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> On mer. 30 sept. 2015 à 23:13:26, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> > [Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
> > > Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.

> > DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes

> > > is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.

> > I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in the
> > teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins into
> > accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
> > As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to work
> > with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help with
> > any problems you might have with tools I wrote.

> Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
> wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial trouble.

> We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
> packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something in
> experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.

It's not my place to judge whether this was a correct disciplinary action
for the DPMT, of which I am not a member; but for the record, this does not
in any way prevent Thomas from continuing to maintain *his* packages.  The
DPMT doesn't block a maintainer from moving their packages out of the DPMT
repositories and maintaining them elsewhere.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: I've been removed from the Python team

2015-09-30 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
Le 1 octobre 2015 00:25:55 GMT+02:00, Ian Cordasco  
a écrit :
>On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue 
>wrote:
>> On mer. 30 sept. 2015 à 23:13:26, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
>>> [Thomas Goirand, 2015-09-30]
>>> > Piotr decided to remove me from the Python team.
>>>
>>> DPMT and PAPT to be precise, yes
>>>
>>> > is an over reaction and that it should be reverted.
>>>
>>> I talked with you many times in private about your involvement in
>the
>>> teams over last ~3 years and since I kind of forced other admins
>into
>>> accepting you, I also take all the blame for removing you.
>>> As I said in the private mail earlier today, if you still want to
>work
>>> with me, I'm happy to review / sponsor your commits in DPMT or help
>with
>>> any problems you might have with tools I wrote.
>>
>> Dear Piotr,
>>
>> Even if I'm not in the team and thus I do not decide of anything, I
>> wonder if that's an appropriate answer, regarding the initial
>trouble.
>>
>> We are currently talking about preventing Thomas to maintain his
>> packages that has DPMT as maintainer, because he uploaded something
>in
>> experimental, which is neither a release, nor a distro of any kind.
>>
>> Considering the potential trouble it'll lead to (as for an example
>it'll
>> probably send my attempt to package mailman3 to nowhere), and the
>> potential bad consequences for python team (some packages no longer
>> maintained, etc), does it worth it?
>>
>> --
>> PEB
>
>Pierre,
>
>I'm new to the team, mailing list, etc. (honestly, I never had a
>chance to formally introduce myself to everyone) but it looks as if
>Piotr has had several instances in the past where he's had to
>discipline Thomas. I doubt this is an action that Piotr took lightly.
>Further, I doubt those packages will suddenly go unmaintained.
>
>Please continue working on mailman3, it will benefit the community far
>more than the outcome of this apparent disciplinary action.
>
>Cheers,
>Ian

Dear Ian,

I do not intend to stop working on it, but even if it is not the first time (I 
hope no one would take such an action for one isolated mistake), I strongly 
beleive that such removal from a team where mostly anyone is supposed to be at 
a same level should be calmly discussed and debated with mostly everybody of 
the team in order to reach a consensus.

This decision looks like something decided just after an aggressive discussion 
about something which does not look that bad from where I sit.

Wouldn't taking some time to think before this removal had been a better idea 
for everybody?

Peace, love and cheers.
-- 
PEB