Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Icon help for LibreOffice v.4.0 features website page
Hi K-J, Marc, all, On 2 February 2013 13:24, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de wrote: Page not found Strange, my browser has no problem finding it..? In any case, the current icons there are normal LibreOffice icons for Writer, Calc, Impress [...] in the format 40px*48px. The additional icons needed would be for: * Core Changes * Options/General * Filters * GUI * Localisation * Infrastructure * Linux * Extensions * Feature Removal/Deprecation * API Changes Tbh, that's a pretty long list. Few ideas how we could get it down: * Extensions contains only one bullet point that would fit just as well with Core Changes, imo * Same goes for the category Linux (although you might want to prepend Add Gstreamer 1.0 support [...] with on Linux, ) * Feature Removal/Deprecation and Performance seem similar but contain so many items that it seems sensible to keep them separate. * Assuming that changes of options in individual LibO modules were put under those modules's headlines, Options/General one can also go into Core Changes Next, we already have a few more of the required items in the initial icons SVG: * API changes could use the Macro icon * Core changes could use the plain grey LibreOffice icon (or maybe be overlaid with an atom nucleus?) * We could probably modify the Chart icon into something Performance-related, i.e. make it look like a performance-before-and-after diagram * We could use the globe from the Writer/Web icon for Infrastructure Finally, some ideas for the rest: * Localisation: document icon with speech bubbles on it (we _used to_ have soemthing like this on pootle.df.o, if I am not mistaken) * GUI: Document icon with OK button on it (??) * Feature Removal/Deprecation: Document icon with a big minus on it (??) Are there better ideas? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi all, My conclusion is that no decision should be drawn based on guessing and personal preferences. Another aspect of this is that any preferences users might currently hold tell us nothing about how well an interface eventually works for users. All the current study tells us about is the acceptance of ribbons v/ toolbars and menus. That basically translates to How much work the marketing/community people would have to do to successfully sell the decision to go towards one or the other?. I can't remember who said this where and when, but there is a quote like: to truly respect your users, you have to disrespect them. I.e. look at how they work, not at how they think they (might want to) work. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Björn, On 30 January 2013 20:18, Björn Balazs bjoern.bal...@user-prompt.com wrote: You haven't: We did an expert rating (that what I wrote - and to add some more flesh to it:) with two experts (Heiko and me) working independently and discussing were categorization differed. Not sure if you're saying that I haven't looked careful enough or that you haven't explained it well enough. In any case, I wasn't so much interested in the who? as I was in the how?. So yes, you are right - there are issues to the validity. Take it as I said before: it is an indicator for the mentioned hypothesis and There are issues with the validity of your results/the methodology but you still want to use them as an indicator for something? Nevertheless they are valid - mostly because people re-did what was done before using (slightly) different methodology. That mostly thing is mostly the problem here: no one has tested your study with proper methodology so far. Back to our study: all raw data is freely available. Sure. I really hope to get some support here - we need to go ahead based on research (as good as we can). You see in this and other threads, what happens when we all just talk about our own preferences... Emphatically, I support what you do (I believe I wrote that before) – I just don't like this specific part of your analysis. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Thibaut, Heiko On 29 January 2013 23:04, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.de wrote: Hi Astron Thanks for your detailed answer. I can't promise to do the data analysis in the wiki but will have a look at it. Thanks! I have uploaded the file to http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods (To my defense, I actually did upload it yesterday.) LO is a huge project and I assume that it's sometimes complicated to reach consensus on UI changes. People like what they already know... an old problem for all lateral thinkers. Well, reaching (complete) consensus is not actually necessary – finding a developer and getting some sort of lazy consensus is enough. The problem, for the most part lies in the former. I focus on Writer UI stuff here, but I have many other points on how LO could be improved. The longer I think about it - the more I will find. The problem is time and to channelize it in a way it is potentially useful to you. Since Mirek already linked you to some – have a look at our whiteboards and see if you think that process works for you. Most of the time, I open Writer to write stuff, so highlighting spelling errors makes sense. When I'm done with writing, there is no need to recheck the whole text - it's already done. Second argument, browser has only an auto-spell-checker tool, too. Ah, ok. So you do in fact want some sort of reading mode? If I open a file in another language to read it I sometimes deactivate the auto-spell-checking to get rid of the red underlines below every word in the text. Btw. auto language recognition would be suuch a great feature. Not completely sure, but I think we already have some piece of code that tries to make educated guesses to fill the context menu. Anyway, I agree. ... that are all more power user use-cases. Right, but everyone can cater to basic users – and it seems we are already losing this fight against the likes of Google Docs, not to mention Office 365. So, supporting power users is one way to stay relevant, I guess. The 'Styles and Formatting' button kind of duplicates and enhances the drop-down-menu next to it. I guess that an average user will be completely happy with only the 'ApplyStyle' drop-down-menu and will not even notice the removal of the 'Styles and Formatting' button. Probably true. 1g - Remove the button labeled 'Default' in the lower left corner. Its label is unclear and the button adds no value to the UI (remember average user point of view). This is a quick style switcher. Arguably, either this combo box or the style button should probably go in the longer run. The button is confusing, why do I have to double click it, whereas a single click opens the language menu next to it? Having a quick way to access the page settings is nice but it is too hidden, so nearly nobody will notice. First of all, sorry I misunderstood you: I thought you were speaking of the style combobox in the Formatting toolbar instead of something in the status bar. Also, yes, I agree that it should better go elsewhere where it seems closer/more related to the page. 1i - Remove the small paper icons left from the zoom panel. I don't get what it is useful for after trying them several times and guess that normal users would struggle here too. These can be quite useful. They are for enabling book and multiple pages mode – I assume you tried them with a single page in the window? Two pages with a page break in between. We could improve the feedback here, I guess, e.g. by showing one or multiple ghost pages when enabling book/multiple pages mode. I tried it now with a longer document and it still doesn't make much sense to me ^^ When using the multiple-page-mode you have to use massively the scroll bars - feels broken. You mean the book mode, I assume (first page on the right)? Guess it's hard to make it look like a book layout without showing the two pages next to each other. :) The multi-page mode otoh adapts to the size of the screen. In any case, I just noticed, these buttons lack any sort of tooltip – definitely a bug. 1k - Move the 'Align Right' and 'Justified' text formatting button into [...] On a small screen, they get cut off right now - that's a massive UX problem because one of the Writers main functions gets hidden too easily. Agree, that's quite a problem. You could pay someone to get the boring stuff done - using donation money. When donating money, it's nice to know that it helps LO, but you don't see really what is done with it - LO works as it has in the past. The donation money is currently mostly used to pay for web servers/hosting, to bring people together through hackfests/the annual conference, the foundation etc. Using it to pay otherwise volunteer contributors could be a bad idea, because it can be detrimental to the community at large. (Why is this person paid, but not I?, Why should I contribute again if I
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Heiko, @Astron: I was looking for OO's tracking results some time ago. The data is not accessible anymore. It would be great to have good data to analyse and even better if it comes from LO. Oh. Didn't check the link if it's still available. Sorry. I still have copy on my local disk, though. Given how it used to be public (and presumably freely licensed? hard to check when the page is deleted now), giving it away shouldn't be a problem, I guess. I'll upload it later today to my Dropbox (not sure if uploading to TDF wiki is appropriate). Sadly, for LibO, we don't have similar data and likely won't get it soon. The code to collect the usage data was Java-based and didn't seem useful initially – it has been gone now for some time (since ~3.4). :( [1b] http://user-prompt.com/more-is-worse-about-detail-in-icons/ Please don't refer to this particular post for proof of anything any more – you admitted to rationalising after you had the results in this case. As such, this part of the icons study is imho rather useless. (Your efforts in analysing our UI are more than welcome in general – LibO 4.0 shipping with floppy icons again is a direct result of your work – I am only taking offence with advertising this particular post.) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Björn, Sorry for stepping in here. The results are just what it says in the post. Yes, we did an analysis of data that was not gathered for this kind of analysis in the first place. As it cannot be used to proof any hypothesis (no statistical study can anyhow - read Popper on this topic) - the data cannot falsify the hypothesis that more detail is worse than less detail - but it can falsify the hypothesis that there is no difference between more and less detail icons in this particular setting. This is a value. So, first of all, the hypothesis makes some sense to me, logically. However, the problem here is that the categorisation seems pretty random: low-detail icons have small text on them, have delicate lines, contain many elements, etc. You don't seem to have published how you categorised the icon, either (maybe I haven't looked hard enough). If you look at the comments below the post, I am clearly not the first to have noticed. This is, btw, not the only concern about the validity of the more-is-worse analysis. So, all the study proves is that some icons are more readable than others – which is useful in itself of course. Esp. as Heiko did not cite the study to proof anything. Sorry about overreacting there. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
Hi Wolfgang, all, On 30 January 2013 18:37, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: MS has always been at the antipode of ergonomics. And they keep moving in the *wrong* direction. Ribbons as well as the totally ridiculous Windows 8 GUI - try to accomplish *any* work with it, you'll rather end up tossing the screen through the closed window of your office - are just the latest cerebral flatulances emanating from their product managers' brains. Wow, you're noticing you're quite harsh there, right? I don't think you're entirely justified here: Microsoft do a lot of user testing and research, even if their execution is occasionally lacking a bit (as with Office 2007 and even more so with Windows 8). Also, the concepts behind the Ribbons and the Metro/Windows-8-style are completely different – the former shows everything at once to ease creation of content, the latter tries to hide everything that would distract from consuming content. So your observation that you can't really work with Windows 8 actually means that its designers have mostly reached their goal. It's of course debatable if that's a useful goal – especially considering how the Windows–Office tandem used to be Microsoft's moneymaker. Note how Office is still stuck on the desktop of Windows 8 (save for One Note). *Never* take products made by managed corporations as examples to follow. I am not sure this attitude helps. Use *exclusively* whitespace to group objects. That's probably a good suggestion, but where do we take all that white space from? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LO Writer UI Analysis
button into a little drop-down menu like done for creating a new presentation file from inside Writer (upper left corner). This would clean up the UI a bit without making it too hard to access the less used formatting options. Not sure if that is so useful – while they are undoubtedly used less, it would create an awkward UI inconsistency, imho. 1l - Move the bullet and numbered list icons in one icon with a drop-down like in 1k. Might be a good idea. Not sure. 1m - Maybe remove the 'New', 'Open', 'Export directly as PDF' and 'Print File Directly' buttons in the upper left corner. I don't think removing any of these is a good idea – although I would rather like to replace Print Directly with the regular Print. The PDF export icon is very important, not just because it is useful, but also for marketing reasons (Ooo was the first mainstream office suite to feature native PDF export). 2. UI skim through - Icon recognizably A lot of icons have a similar shape or are too detailed and therefore hard to recognize. The elementary buttons are green - that’s good - but orange and red dominate. The issue here is that it is easy to start a new icon theme for LibO, but not easy to finish it. There is quite an amount of icons (over 1000) and you'd need to get at least a third of them before a theme becomes actually usable. Hence, why we try to update the Tango theme a few icons at a time. (But of course, they still have to fit the graphical style of the old ones somewhat, so you can use them together.) 2a - Keep the space holders but remove the visual thin line to separate buttons. The current thin line is not useful when searching an element - in contrary it clutters the UI. 3. Lines in the UI = I visualized the lines that structure the UI but are not part of any button. Image: http://ubuntuone.com/75eM3Kex30qhLqshd0oswK As you can see, there are a lot of lines. I don't fully agree here – if you look at current versions of LibO on Windows, there the lines between toolbars and the menubar have been removed. I don't think this has improved the look very much, tbh, as the icons seem to swimming in a sea of grey. Thibaut, again thanks very much for your work! I hope you can help realise at least some of what you proposed. Astron. [1] http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] SVG files for your 4.0 branding proposals
Hi everyone who's submitted a branding proposal, I've just noticed there's been a bit of an oversight in our whiteboard – it says nowhere that you should include a source file (preferably SVG) with your proposal. So, if you're made a proposal and you're reading this, please upload your source file asap – or at least until Saturday 1700 UTC. Thanks sorry for the late notice, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Splash screen LO 4
Hi all, Re: this: Not sure the whole 3D part is such a good idea... ? Indeed we tend to promote rather simplistic interfaces and elements. The whole 3D part makes me think of an old fashion design. Javier, I'd invite you to read our branding guidelines (they are linked from the Whiteboard page too): https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding Imho, the 3D part is not a huge problem (if a bit resemblant of MSO 2010's look), but you will certainly need to scrap the custom logo and font, if you want to make this usable for us. That being said, I am not sure where your green 3D band/river is flowing... it is a bit weird that the upwards end is flowing to the left (backwards) instead of to the right (forward). Also, the left part of the splash screen seems rather empty. In total, I guess, you could dial down contrasts a little and maybe cover a larger part of the splash screen in some (light) shade of green. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] The Tango Save Icon (Cabinet v/ Diskette) Under Discussion Again
Hi all, just before Christmas [1], Björn wrote a nice blog post about our new save icon and how it fails to convey its meaning... http://user-prompt.com/about-antiquated-metaphors-in-icons/ I guess we need to discuss reverting to the diskette icon... What do you think? Astron. [1] I didn't notice it until today – haven't been reading the planet too closely lately. Otherwise, this would have come earlier. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Facebook page
Hi Steve, On 8 January 2013 23:52, SteveBell steveb...@gulli.com wrote: I disagree. Facebook is a real problem and voicing general concerns with the idea behind Facebook is legit and honest. Sure, but doing that in your first post might leave a weird impression. Also, I don't really see how Facebook is any worse than Google Plus tbh, and we didn't post snarky comments about our hosts there either. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Author of current splash screen?
Hi Pedro, I guess I am the culprit. The thing is, most of what I did was recolouring Andrea's splash screen a bit to better fit our branding colours. So no real need to credit me... Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Author of current splash screen?
Hi Pedro, Ok. So I'll give credits to Andrea. Good. In any case it would probably make sense to have the svg publicly available here https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements It is still in my Dropbox: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/shadow-intro-source.zip ... but you're right, I need to upload that somewhere good. BTW it's a shame the old 3.5.x logo isn't available as svg. Is it stored somewhere? I guess the contemporary logo is what you're looking for: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Resources Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
Hello all, I won't be there for the chat now. In any case, here's the ESC update: + please keep using the Windows button order on dialogues converted to UI files + ftr, that order is: [OK][Cancel] (or more generally: [primary button][secondary button]) + at some point in the future, Caolan (or someone else) might attack the problem of automatically adjusting the button order for the present OS + it was remarked that it'd be great if more designers attended the next hackfest I think those are the most interesting things for now. Everything else should also be in the official minutes. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-design] Send Feedback Option
Hi Rob, all, here's a link to an HTML mockup: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/feedback/feedback-page.html Note a few things: * there's probably a lot that can still be done with the design (albeit this one has already taken me embarrassingly long, or at least longer than I hoped) * this code won't win contests (it's a mockup!) * I would leave the whole signing into Twitter, counting characters and all the JS-y thigns that don't yet work to you (if you even like the Twitter idea). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] problem with color gradiations and pdf export
Hi Dieter, On 26 October 2012 13:31, Dieter Strzempek d.strzem...@gmx.de wrote: Hi everyone, im designing new templates for impress. when i use a radial, color gradiation in the backgound, and export the presentation to a pdf, i get a bad result. the gradiation in the pdf looks like a dart board. Yes, I usually get similarly bad results. Have you looked if there's an open bug already? I see this one for linear gradients [0][1], but that one sounds more like an issue with alternative PDF software not with LibreOffice. I know for certain, though, that I tried radial gradient in Adoe Reader at sime time and I didn't look too well either. So, I think you should just open a new bug report for this, via the step-by-step assistant at https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi (or directly in bugzilla if you wish). Astron. [0] [1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45505 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Android Remote icon
Hi Alex, are there any updates on the icon? Or something we should help with? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Font repository integration
Hi Olivier, all, just about the Burmese font bit: that's not the in-development feature. Rather than that, it is likely some sort of PackageKit integration where LibO notices it isn't yet have a package for a Burmese font installed and then asks you about that. (But, I have to admit I wondered about the same thing recently.) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Control elements in a partial-formal document
Hi Lars, I guess you should mail the developers mailing list, since the design team doesn't deal with the underlying technology that much. the address of that list is libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org, by the way. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Higher‐resolution OpenDocument icons for Mac OS X
Hi Nicholas, I am taking the liberty to add the design list into CC here... Astron. On 27 August 2012 16:58, Nicholas Shanks nicksha...@nickshanks.com wrote: Since I am unable to compile LO, I figured I would work on the artwork a bit. I noticed that the Windows .ico files included a 256px icon, and that there were 256px icons in PNG form in the tree, yet the Mac icons were only provided up to 128px in size. So I have created revised versions of the sysui/desktop/icons/oasis-*.icns files, derived directly from the PNG files. The Mac icon format also supports 512x512 and 1024x1024 sized icons, so I have generated PNGs for these sizes and included them in the icns files. (512px is used for the iTunes‐like carousel view called Cover Flow, and 1024 is used for the same on high pixel density displays.) These additional sizes add 2MB to the Mac distribution over the icns files with just 256 added (not attached), which itself adds very little due to better compression than the files currently in the tree. The LO Mac distribution is already 640 MB so I figured another two to make it look spiffy wouldn't hurt. If anyone objects though I can re‐send with just 256 or just 512 included. If you extract the attached tape archive into the sysui/desktop/ directory everything should be placed in the correct location. I have NOT created equivalents for the OOo 1.0 and Microsoft file formats because I think LO is wrong to use identical icons for them. I will prepare new icons for all platforms which have the LibreOffice document branding (detached upper right corner and tinted thick border) but with elements that allow users to identify the file format too, so that a user can see directly from the icon that oh, this is a Microsoft Word document, but double‐clicking it will open the file in LibreOffice. I also intend to create a new extension icon, the predominant shape of which will be like the current one, but rotated 90° clockwise and with the upper right corner detached, and a thick grey border and plain white interior (no green plus). I will try to make it suck less in appearance too, using main.svg as a starting point. I also have some ideas for the main application icon (which currently looks like a blank document, not an application). I think taking the brown, yellow, green, blue and purple triangles used to identify the main document types and arranging them radially in a circle 60° apart from one another would look good. This motif would then be placed in a square, rather than a rectangle, and adhere to platform conventions for the appearance of applications, e.g. 0° for Windows, 30° for Mac Gnome, 45° for BeOS etc. Sound good? -- Nicholas. ___ LibreOffice mailing list libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some new icons
Hi Sveinn, it's probably worth noting that you don't have to ruin your icon set any more to try out different icons in LibreOffice 3.6. What you need to do, is go to the folder where there images_*.zip are stored, and create a new folder there, with the same name as the corresponding zip file. I. e. for Tango that would be a new folder named images_tango. Then you have to recreate the bit of folder structure you need for your icon (usually that's just cmd) and place the correctly named icons in there. It's not very well documented so far – if you can think of a good place where to stick this in the wiki, let me know (or just do it). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: Re: Themeing by Libreoffice
Hello blackcrack, please note that our mailing list uses English as the working language, so (in the interest of all the not-so-German-enabled) it'd be a good idea to use that instead. In any case, we recognise that the toolbars of the Windows version of LibreOffice 3.6 may not look perfect and will hopefully refine that again for 3.6, but I think the change away from sickly blue to light greys is rather for the better. I personally also think that introducing user-changeable themes would not be a very productive use of developer time. (If you're up for it, though, you can certainly make a patch and get it in.) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Looking for a new splash screen
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, We have a big, big mistake with our Splash screen [4]: It don't follow our own branding [1] and guidelines because the LibreOffice without TDF isn't in one line with the logo. Andrea's will do [5]. There's not so much to worry, * There are two versions each of the splash screen/about screen/Start Center, one with the byline, one without – the in-product logos without the byline are always the same * I recognised that changing the horizontal alignment of the LibreOffice text this late in the release cycle was a bad idea – thus, I've made a patch that rectifies this, it will be in 3.6.1 at the latest and only needs another review to go into 3.6.0 Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Templates for Stefan
Hi Alex, they're in. :) http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?h=libreoffice-3-6id=01e1714d0cb613cb192c7dc8e997789ec1aa73aa Stefan. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] User research, Icon-Testing et al.
Hi Björn, sorry for not doing anything on Userweave these past days ... I was updating splash screens and such... will try to get back to the icon testing thing next week or so. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [IconTesting] - What to test?
Hello Björn, here's a couple of proposals for icons to test: * the Styles and Formatting icon (especially the one in Tango) * the Save icon (diskettes, cabinets, hard drives ... do users find this confusing?) * the metaphor of the Format paintbrush * Crop (present only in Impress/Draw) – we use a scissors for that, but that is already used to signify Cut, Adobe products use stylised versions of some sort of old-fashioned photo cropping rulers, GIMP uses a simple cutter knife – what do users like better? However, none of these are to be found in the same group, yet, if we take the group that sits around them usually ... we probably already have what you say is a good amount. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Alex, Overall: great. I like the coloured accent very much. There are a couple things, though: #1 Would you mind removing the small-caps from the headlines? These aren't font-provided small caps, but forced ones whose proportions differ from what a typographer would provide with a font (i. e. their lines are two thin for the given font size) – long story short, typographers would hate us for doing this in our defaults #2 The difference between Heading 1 and Heading 2 font size is too large – make Heading 2 and 3 larger, please #3 Heading and Heading 1 have some marginal difference in appearance, although it looks like there should be none at all #4 Looking at the distance (kerning) between the a and the d in Heading 1, it seems the DejaVu Light font is not quite ready for primetime, can you revert to normal DejaVu (which looks better)? #5 Heading 4 to 10 should surely have larger font sizes (Heading 6 has a 9pt font size, much smaller than the body text!) #6 Signature uses FreeSans, not DejaVu/Liberation Serif Hope that helps, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Olivier, First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an endless debate... Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not really an option either, though. Second, - I have not tested - LO may warn me that my legacy documents have new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a shoot in the head of document preservation. That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though? My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually embedded within the document. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos
Hi all, just a quick note: the log for yesterday's meeting is now up https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-06-10 we quickly touched upon the issues discussed here (see the parts from 18:59–19:05 and 19:58–pretty much the end). Also, I'm happy to announce that we might have hit another record length for our chats... Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Looking for a new splash screen
Hi Adolfo, For the in-program artwork, it's right, we just need PNG's However, there are two reasons why we want SVG: #1 License compliance: the LGPL license say that you have to be able to show the source for any given part of a covered work. It is a bit of a stretch to try to apply a software source code license to artwork, but nonetheless we'd like to be on the safe side. (If you started out with Gimp, then obviously the source would be an XCF file.) #2 The other, very practical reason is that we might want to make changes (maybe now, maybe later) – that could range from adapting the dimensions of the splash screen to having to add a version number ...; with a raster image all of that is a bit harder. Hope this helps, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Looking for a new splash screen
Hi everyone, For the 3.6 release, we'd like to have a new splash screen, thus, if you're feeling creative, please submit designs in here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Playground/Splash_screen There are a few constraints: * add your entry until June 29, 2012, 0:00 GMT * please upload both your SVG source image and your exported PNG image * when uploading to the wiki, please choose the license combination CC-BY-SA/LGPL 3+/MPL 1.1, so we can immediately use the splash screen * use the official LibreOffice branding and colours [1] * if you make use of the full logo (document symbol + LibreOffice lettering), please make a submission with the official logo and another with the community logo * be conservative in restyling the progress indicator (details on what can be done are on the Playground page) A few recommendations: * make use of our motif [2] * make use of one of the flat logos [3] Bonus Points: * design a fitting Start Centre look, too (that's the thing that appears when no document is currently open) Prizes: * fame, but no fortunes, sorry May you all be very creative! Astron. [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif [3] The new About dialogue in 3.6 uses a flat logo SVG, because LibreOffice's SVG code can't yet display the modern SVG logo right. It is not an option right now to use a PNG there in its stead. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
Hi Mirek, I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on Sunday. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
Hi Mirek, I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on Sunday. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [Patch] Make new About dialogue a little nicer
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, Have you tried to do it with a darker green background and white writing and rectangles like these business cards [1] and some other artworks? I haven't, though it should be pretty easy for you to do it yourself (it would probably look cool, but I really want to get off this dialogue some time in the near future): * the background and logo are just SVG images – if you install a 3.6 nightly, you'll find these files in the program folder of your LibreOffice installation – you can easily replace them * the colors are hard-coded in a source file in cui/source/about.cxx – this might be out of your reach for now, however, you can always make a mockup. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Play with the Windows look
Hi Mirek, To be honest, I'd prefer a solid-color menu bar, but as both you and Kendy insist on using Aero glass in the menu bar and I could care less about Windows, how about something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doze3.png ? By no means am I insisting on that – I do see the inherent readability/beauty problems. But if we go with the glassy look, I think we should try make it look as good and readable as possible, i. e. we should not make it look like it is Firefox (traditional menu) and Thunderbird (before the tabs-above-the-menu look was introduced) [1]. Astron. [1] http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Add-ons-manager.jpg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] [Patch] Make new About dialogue a little nicer
Hi, Since I noticed, the beta is supposed to be tagged today or tomorrow already and we in the Design team had talked about our new About thing a little... and I also don't seem to have anything to do... I made this patch for About. It does the following: * it removes the bevel from the SVG background * it removes the hardcoded button colour for the Website button (and also changes it's text, so it looks less like a link) * it unhides the Close button * it moves the button row below the copyright text Requisite screenshots: Before: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Libreoffice-new-about-dialog.png After: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Modified-new-about-dialog.png I would be grateful if someone could take a look at this and commit it or well, not. Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: About dialogue
Okay, scratch that. I just found time to work on this... so, I've sent a patch to the ux-advise list (accidentally not to the dev list). It does most of what I hoped for, except that it doesn't make the buttons links. See the other thread I just opened. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: About dialogue
Hi William, ah, you don't understand: it's not a mock-up, it's implemented. (The patch however was scrapped on the design list, but you can see it under [1].) About the close button: Under Gnome 3, modal windows don't get a close button in the titlebar (usually they don't get a titlebar either). The only way to then close such a window is to right-click on the titlebar. About the logo rules, see [2], rule 4. [1] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2012-June/001188.html [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Guidelines_and_Best_Practices -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
Hi all, @Christoph: Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel safe. If that was the case, then it would have been a better idea to focus on the following things: * get document backup/restoration reliable enough for everyone (something like backup-as-you-type maybe) * make sure, Ooo doesn't crash (and if it crashes, that it doesn't take all opened documents with it – for instance, similar to how Chrome separates tabs) (Yes, that's an arrogant statement coming from a non-developer. I know that.) Almost the same is true for the current status bar indicator - but of course it's just there because of the cool TDF symbolism ;-) That's a terrible reason to introduce new UI. The world most of us live in is cluttered with branding and ads, so to me it's not a good idea to add to this beyond what we actually need to establish a brand. Long-term, I would love if we could reduce the amount of logos to the ones contained in the about box and the one in the titlebar. (Splash screen should go completely at some point and the logo in the start centre seems unnecessary to me.) Maybe I'm an extremist here. So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then I'd propose to go with (unsaved) instead of the asterisk for the title bar. Example for unsaved changes: Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer I've seen other software go for (modified) which is a more positive word, I think. So, that would be my preferred solution. To shorten the text in the titlebar again, we could follow the Gnome 2 guidelines and remove the LibreOffice Writer/Calc/... part of the titlebar. @Jean-Francois: A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't. Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is* changed. Maybe it's not quite that simple. There are certain settings (zoom level, for one) that depend so much on the specific computer (screen, in this case) that it doesn't make a lot of sense to even save this information within the file. It would make far more sense to save that in the LibreOffice configuration itself. This way, you can just save those settings when the window is closed. For other settings like caret position within the document, that approach might not be applicable, however, given my example, if you put your caret at a different position within a document, then this is usually done to edit it, thus producing a new saveable state. Since I am not sure what else is saved within the document, I won't go on here... I hope you see the point. In any case, I don't have so much of an opinion about whether to actually enable the save icon at all times ... both options are fine with me. I would, however, like the statusbar indicator to be gone. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] ESC call
Hi Alex, I planned to be there. Maybe you want to try again this week, though, since you had such bad luck last time..? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] ESC call
Clarification: Maybe you want to try again this week, though, since you had such bad luck last time..? That was supposed to mean that I'll be there either way, but two people hopefully won't hurt too much. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] ESC call
Hi Mirek, so, because there are precious few slots I attended only part of the call – thus, for the future: it's not a good idea to have two designers on the call. * Michael determined that we need a new splashscreen, I offered to help (because we really do finally need a splashscreen that incorporates our motif). * I am currently still cataloguing our icons and what can be replaced, I intend to contact Lapo again today/tomorrow (I've had chat with him yesterday). * Alex asked a bit about changing default styles ** Cédric, I believe, will work with him ** LibreOffice won't (for the moment) ship with any more fonts than it does now. * Kendy wanted to thank us for working with him so well. Apparently, at the end, there was a bit of a discussion about gerrit, but that doesn't concern us so much... Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] proposal for writer's Insert menu
Hi Michel, Steve, Mirek, +1 to Mirek's view. If you want to make a proposal based on usage, please use something like http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods as the basis, not just your own usage. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: New icons in Tango
Hi ape, sorry for not replying. Why are the icons from the archive (http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n3925928/changecase_images_tango.7z) are absent in images_tango.zip LibreOffice-3.5.4rc1? Please don't expect new icons in a bugfix release (unless it's urgent). If at all, they would be in the upcoming version 3.6. However, due to Gimp's ugly font antialiasing I asked you if you could re-do them in Inkscape and maybe provide them as SVG's. If that is not possible for you, please state on this list that you contribute these icons under the LGPL 3 or higher and MPL license. I will then push them to 3.6. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: EPS logo
Hi all, Now that Sveinn posted her results ... I see the problem (yes, even with the PDF's linked to). I tried to coerce Inkscape into giving me useful EPS files ... but it doesn't look like it can. Thus, here's my try at helping: I exported it to a srsly large PNG. It is still in RGB mode, but given the fact that I have zero experience whatsoever with CMYK and I recently learned that generic CMYK is often less than helpful [1]... Anyway, this is the file: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Extlogolrg.png You'll notice that I edited the logo a bit, the text is now vertically centered, and I enforced the half width of the document symbol on each side rule. Hope that helps, if not ... I can probably check Scribus if it can export in a useful way. However, can you ask your designer if he couldn't just go with the SVG? (The rumours about needing Vegur are unfounded by the way.) Astron. [1] http://blog.mmiworks.net/2009/05/gimp-enter.html -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: EPS logo
Hi Isabelle, Sorry for my ignorance, but what's the problem with scaling the provided EPS up? Isn't it the whole point of vector images that you can make them as big or small as you want them with the only possible quality loss coming from the thing they're displayed with (here dots of printer ink). Or is it that the font isn't kerned well or something like that (which I coulnd't imagine being true for our logo)? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog
Hello all, I've updated the proposal with data bars/color scales in mind... https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting I've tried to describe it in the wiki... if there are questions, don't hesitate to ask. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo for the LibreOffice Conference 2012 in Berlin
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, all, And my draft (2012-03-02): http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO_Conference_Logo_2012Berlin_color.png Wonderful! I've had ~1 big complaint about it, namely that the Victory Column is higher than the 1px grey separator line (which seems like it should be the thing in the logo). Thus, I've used your and Nik's great work as a basis... here is my proposal: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Liboconflogo2012-proposal-astron.png Source file: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Liboconflogo2012-proposal-astron.svg Regards, Astron. PS: I noticed that [for the victory column] you overlaid some green elements with white circles to make it look like a quarter-circle was cut off a rectangle. The better way to go about this, is to to convert both the circle and the rectangle to paths (Path Object to Path) and then use the function Path Difference to cut off the quarter-circle from the rectangle. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo for the LibreOffice Conference 2012 in Berlin
should be the thing in the logo). the _highest_ thing, I meant. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design principles
Hello Mirek, great effort to do that! It seems to be based on Android's UI design principles... amiright? I'd like to comment on the goal of being focused: Focus on doing ONE thing well. Writer is for producing great-looking documents, Impress for supplementing a great speech, Calc for interpreting data. Additional features, like HTML controls for Writer, should be available to the user as extensions, not shipped with the product. Necessary features that aren't related to what the user is doing (e.g. Quit, Recent documents, New file in Writer) should be tucked away. While this is a laudable goal for some software, it's probably not a goal that's too helpful for LibO which currently is more of a jack of all trades and which has its strengths in being that. For office productivity software, one of the important things are comparison tables. In these tables, things like exports to HTML, support format XYZ, can create organigrammes all get you points. So, that's where this project comes from: trying to match MSO in a comparison table + a little authentic innovation. Obviously, LibO has a number of rough areas, the further out you get, the rougher it is. Obviously, it should be more focused, for instance, there's no excuse to ship a scanner module (that's only usable from inside one of the applications anyway), because MS doesn't do that either. Then, you have your example of Form Controls – I _guess_ these are most often used for writing macros for LibreOffice, not for exporting to HTML. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC Chat: GSoC
Hi all, sorry for not being there ... exceptional circumstances. I'd be interested in the full transcript, though... there only seems to be a part of it available. Does anyone have the full version? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design principles
Hi Mirek, Even an advanced office suite needs to be focused. As I specified, I see Writer as a tool to create great-looking documents. That doesn't mean it can't export to HTML -- of course it can. An HTML document is just as valuable as an ODT document. What it does mean, though, is that Writer's workflow needs to be concentrated at creating a great-looking document. All the tools within Writer should help the user do that. If the user wants to create a website with Writer (which I wouldn't recommend, as there are better tools for that), he can download an extension to help him accomplish that. For office productivity software, one of the important things are comparison tables. In these tables, things like exports to HTML, support format XYZ, can create organigrammes all get you points. So, that's where this project comes from: trying to match MSO in a comparison table + a little authentic innovation. I guess we have very different ideas about what LibreOffice should be. I'd like LibreOffice to stand its own, have value not as a Microsoft alternative but as a powerful suite of applications that each has its specific goal and meaning. Our ideas where it should be are not so different, I think. :) However, the most important (paying) customers for LibreOffice are huge bureaucracies that will indeed create a table of necessary features and use that to compare the available solutions. So, that's what the core developers get paid for, too. Specifically: * fixing crashes/freezes * improving performance * matching MSO features (to ease migration) * opening foreign file formats (to ease migration) Also, a likely factor in LibO having so many half-baked features is that it's so much more interesting to do something new than to improve someone else's stuff. In that way, LibO's organicity also is a huge burden. File format support is important, I agree, but it has no influence on how a piece of software is designed. Well, these were examples. The scanner module could actually be very useful if done correctly, perhaps if included as a tab under the Insert image dialog. I believe that scanning isn't part of LibO's core competences (we don't even have a pixel image editor) and that all current OS's include better tools already. In the case where they (Windows XP and Mac OS 10.4/5 (?)), such a tool always comes with the scanner itself. Thus, integrating with these tools should be the best idea there. But again, that was an example. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Think, don't just do - WAS: Impress remote
Hello Mirek, Björn, from Björns mail: I have offered this before and I do it again now. I am willing to help you defining the requirements. I can help you to conduct the user research to find and validate the requirements. I can help you to deerive the needed artifacts, like personas, goals, situationas, szenarios. I can help you to work with them. I would prefer if you posted a proposal of a way to include these in our idea workflow [1] on your user page. I absolutely agree with Mirek. Your offers have always seemed relatively vague to me. I would find it very interesting to know how to best work with what you have to offer. To be honest, I don't have a very positive experience with user research. Hooey... out of genuine curiosity: where/how have you collected your experiences? From my experience, in most cases, the problems with the current design are so blatant that designer can rely on his own experience with the software and so painful that the designer wouldn't even think of including them in his proposal. To some (largeish) degree that's probably true in LibO... but user research might at least _help_ with priorisation of problem points. As in, you or I or [design team member] are not the (only) people whose problems we are/we should be trying to solve. It's much more likely that the designer will have some omissions in his proposal that impede usability, and it's very important to test for those. If you know of any open-source tools that would help us produce some simple prototypes, please speak up. Seconded. Foget the revolution - find ways to step-by-step transform LibreOffice. :) This point has been made quite a number of times before. So yes, we are covered. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Think, don't just do - WAS: Impress remote
I absolutely agree with Mirek. Your offers have always seemed relatively vague to me. I would find it very interesting to know how to best work with what you have to offer. It's late already... excuse my awful wording. Also, Björn, I am sorry for seeming so harsh in my first reply to this thread. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Think, don't just do - WAS: Impress remote
Hi Björn, In the past I (and many other experienced design and usability people) more or less left this group / mailing list. This is definitely not due to a lack of interest - I still read a lot of the stuff written here. Sure, it's a huge problem that we don't have any UX professional as a regular contributor currently. But is it not a tad unfair to blame the people that are actively working on things here for that not being the case? I'm sure if there was no one posting here at all, the UX professionals wouldn't come in droves either. I am not writing this to show off - I am writing this in the hope you might be interested in the experience I gained over the past years and you might accept my following criticism to be constructive - and not as trolling or ranting around. It's probably best to lead by example not by criticising... no? - nobody from the design team even talked to the GSOC student or the mentor I believe this criticism is unfair, in particular to Mirek. (Who posted his conversation in this thread; he's talked to relevant developers on other topics as well.) - there was no proper analysis of requirements You might be able to help us here, I guess. We're currently using the Scope field of Whiteboards. If you want to propose a better process to go along with that, please do. - there was no agreement on the goals that need to be achieved (just to name some) Hm, this is one of my own criticism of the current whiteboard workflow we have. So yes, I agree. UX is a service discipline to the coders. If we do this service well enough, we might be able to set our own topics on the agenda - but to my experience this will take a (very) long time of providing excellent service first. We're trying to go into this direction. Meanwhile, there's still ux-advise for very focused UX advice. If would like to help out there: would love that. A bit unrelated, but also important: with the current way of doing things, we are creating such an amount of white noise on the mailing list that some people (like me) simply cannot follow the discussions anymore. So, you blame the people actively trying to work here for actively trying to work here? This list might get 50 messages per week on good weeks, it's near dead on bad weeks. Our mail volume doesn't even come close to that of the developer list (80 messages _per day_ on a good week, maybe 20 _per day_ on a bad week). By the nature of this list, yes, the noise ratio is higher than e. g. on the developer list (developers push patches that will likely get applied; designers do mockups/etc. that might not lead to anything or even be completely wrong-headed). You're free not to read everything, btw. Regards, Astron. PS: On the topic of surveys... I'd be very much interested in a survey on the placement of the Add/Remove buttons on my conditional formatting proposal. I imagine having ~three participant groups, and each group gets a more-or-less functional HTML mockup with differently positioned Add/Remove buttons. Would that be something that we could do together? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PUSHED] Re: [libreoffice-design] Writer background image - contest! :-)
Hi all, I've done a little mock-up of some changes of colour (strictly for Windows Vista and up, when using Aero or Aero Basic as the theme): https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mainwindow-win7-mockup.png [1]. The icons in my mockup may be pretty random, but I think the Tango style actually looks quite handsome in this setting. (The inspiration for this obviously comes from the versions of Paint and Wordpad included in Windows 7.) What do you say? And, of course, replies to the previous mail... http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=778d80bc2c37e4549daff2cc1f74f8665235407b Wonderful. Thank you, Kendy. I am not sure if we can do any improvements wrt. the 'scrolled' version; fading the document to the workspace would probably be ideal, but not yet sure if doable with reasonable effort... I think it's fine the way it is. Microsoft got away with a very similar look, so will we, I think. Astron. [1] SVG version (without icons [2], sorry) is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mainwindow-win7-mockup.svg [2] I've actually added the icons later, in Gimp, because Inkscape skewed them somehow. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog
Hi Markus, As already discussed in Hamburg I'm happy with the current proposal but I have one point that I only noticed today. Would it be possible to add a concept for data bars and color scales? Possible, certainly. I think, in the combo box Cell value is we'd need a third choice like (Apply to) All values. Then, you'd get a new combo box replacing equal to and Enter value. In this combo box, you could then choose Color Scale, Data Bars (and possibly Icon Sets). So far, so good... However, now there would be a myriad of elements that we'd need to fit somewhere, for colour scales e.g.: * number of colours (Excel offers two or three – which makes sense) * type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for minimum * type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for maximum * type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for midpoint (only in the case of a three colour scale) Data bars in Excel offer even more customisability... What I am getting at, is: it should be no problem to fit the data bars and colour scales into the dialogue, but for the detailed configuration, we'd need two somewhat ugly new dialogues... We already have a simple proof of concept for data bars from Michael and I would like to implement color scales at least for 3.7. Cool. Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo for the LibreOffice Conference 2012 in Berlin
Hi Jayme, For logo creators: I’d suggest not using clichés like the Eiffel Tower this time. Create something less generic and more meaningful. And please don’t use Helvetica, just Vegur. Obviously, you're free to create a proposal that aligns with your ideas... anyway, please don't hate on the Swiss beauty. ;) Vegur, by the way, is not extremely mature yet, so using it might add some manual kerning work. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo for the LibreOffice Conference 2012 in Berlin
Hi Tor, But is it more politically correct? In the open-source context? Maybe, then again, it is a blatant copy of the Adobe's Myriad font (whose most famous current user is probably Apple). Also, Helvetica has far more copies and some are far better than the original (in terms of glyph coverage). FreeSans for instance, ships in nearly every Linux distro. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog
Hi Andrew, what are these data bars and color scales you speak of? could you like to the concept for them if you have one? take a look here: http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/microsoft-excel-2010-data-bar/ and here: http://www.addictivetips.com/microsoft-office/change-color-cells-in-excel-2010-using-color-scales/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Writer background image - contest! :-)
Hi Mirek, Kendy, One more idea -- could you change the font drop-down menu into an icon menu? That's a little off-topic now, innit? It's probably best to start a new topic for that... (but I hear Kendy is open to such proposals!) What makes the task of changing the entire chrome hard is that there is so many widget types - push buttons with many states (normal, pressed, hover, default), scrollbars (hover, pressed button, dragging the scroller), etc. etc. How hard would it be to change the backgrounds of the menus and toolbars? (Just the background gradients, not actually the widgets themselves.) If that were easy, we could consider a colour scheme like the one Windows 7 Paint and Wordpad use (which seems a bit more balanced and less glossy than our current colour scheme.) See [1]. Granted, both are ribbon apps, so their scheme of gradients would need to be slightly adapted to fit our current UI. For a start, they use a simple horizontal gradient RGB(197,207,223) to RGB(220,229,242) as the document background. (Of course, all those changes should only be activated on Vista and 7.) I'd suggest making the rulers adopt the document background, lose the divider between the background and the rulers, lose the black square around the tab insertion mode, and tone down the colors (black-gray). The result might look something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/4/45/Rulers.png Exactly! Thanks, Mirek. Astron. [1] http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Getting-started-with-Paint -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog
Hi Pierre, 1. For the record: the ability to create a new style is one of the items of the list of styles. Yes, that's the intention. 2. I understand that we will defer the option of sorting conditions. However I disagree with the proposition the Add button Appended to the last condition. - It adds the risks and constraints mentioned - It does not allow to insert a condition. The user has to delete and recreate all of the following to insert a new one. My proposal (with your mockup) would be to have an Add button (left to Remove button) for each condition. These two buttons would be located below the preview area. - Click Add to add a condition after the selected one. - Insert becomes possible - Defer the sorting feature is less penalizing We never had sorting, so at least that's not a regression. I know it's a somewhat basic feature to leave out, but here's hoping that there will be someone to implements the basics for nice drag-drop stuff within the whole app (i. e. a reliable animation framework to show status changes; and of course drag and drop if that's not already in place). The problem with an Add button inside every condition is one of UI hierarchy. All current buttons within the condition field act directly upon the condition, but Add would not. Also, I don't believe there should be so much need to add conditions at arbitrary places in the list, so, no, I don't feel like adding that... - No risk of hidden button The button is designed this way, so the newcomer instantly knows where to click to add a condition (ease the learning curve). It comes with a few drawbacks, but I also described on the wiki how the major ones can be mitigated. 3. It is crucial to know what cell is the current one when defining a formula condition. Area should include Current Cell. Space is not an issue here (ability to hide the area) Oh, sorry I forgot about Regina's and your criticism... I'll update the mockup to include Origin Cell (which seemed to be the most fitting name to me, but please do comment!) in the next minutes. 4. My proposal mockup was a first attempt in the discussion. It included the ability to disable (not delete) a condition. While this may be useful, especially for testing, this would require changes since this property is not currently available. I propose not to retain this proposal. Okay, this matches up with what I thought. :) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC reminder
Hi Mirek, Andrew, okay, then, seems my assumptions aren't true, so let's keep 1600 GTC. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Change The Main Program's Window
Hello ape, Andrew, 1. The file backing_left.png includes the post address TDF (under the logo). This is important in the image. I can't really see the use of having the post address there. In fact, even having the logo there is debatable from my point of view. (Users mainly want to _use_ the product, not stare at our branding.) You can see a picture of classical themes, which is excluded from LibreOffice. So I did not publish the rest of the image from folders images_classic.zip\res\..; images_classic.zip\framework\res\... But I use this updated theme (icons Galaxy_16*16 have been replaced by Classic) only and sometimes distracted in the Tango. 2. Reasons: - The Classic theme of the lightest (1.8 MB uncompressed archive). - The theme is very suitable for users who are accustomed to Microsoft_Office. Sure, but only for users of Office 95-2000. Office XP and newer have used different and more modern themes. Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC reminder
Hi Mirek, Mark your calendars for this time every week, as this is the last reminder I'll post. Hehe. So, one of the things I've been pondering is the following: how about doing the chats an hour/two hours earlier? (I know it would fit me better, and maybe others see this similarly.) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Color handling
Hi Zak, What I need LibO to do is handle a corporate color palette easily. I have managed to edit the relevant files (.GPL) for Inkscape and GIMP - but LibO is proving more difficult. A number of Google searches highlights that it does not appear straightforward to swop or make default my corporate colour palette in LibO. Well, it is possible... not necessarily straightforward, though. In your home folder there's a configuration folder, on Linux (and presumably Mac) that's .libreoffice (LibO 3.3, 3.4), or .config/libreoffice (Libo 3.5+), on Windows Vista and up that is in AppData\Roaming\libreoffice. Within this folder, navigate to 3/user/config and find standard.soc. standard.soc is the palette file which you will want replace. Apparently, there's a tool to convert palette formats [1], such as from .gpl to .soc. Naturally, you can also replace all the colors inside LibreOffice itself first and then copy standard.soc to other PCs. Does that help for the moment? I'm power user technical but not coding level technical - and I would like to support developing this - how would I go about it? You might have seen our colour handling proposal... which you can still add another proposal to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_picker Astron. [1] http://www.selapa.net/swatchbooker/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC reminder
Hi Mirek, The time is based on the Doodle poll we took [1]. Me knowey. 16:00 GMT suited most people. Given that you can't attend quite often, Andrew has usually apparently gone to sleep already at that time ... I wonder if that is actually true. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [RFC] tweaked b/w TDF logo for letterheads, stamps etc.
Hello Thorsten, mostly, I thought it looked good. I've edited it a tiny bit, to make the logo as large as the text and also trying to enforce the 1/2 width of a document symbol distance everywhere. I've added a variant (the bottom one) that should work without the Vegur font being installed (i.e. letters as paths)... that's it. Accidentally, I also replaced your file in the wiki... sorry. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog
Hello all, so, there was a quite a long silence... In the meantime, I've started a Whiteboard on a redesign for the conditional formatting feature in Calc at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting In the end, I decided that while I generally liked my first draft better, it adding sorting to it in the future wouldn't work and also, it wouldn't be able to scale well to many conditions. Thus, I kept the approach I had originally... Markus's aim is/was to implement this change in the 3.6 time frame which means there's not so much time left... If you have criticism/own proposals, it's best to speak up now. (If you're reading this on the design list, the prior discussion on the ux-advise list migth make for a good read: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-conditional-format-dialog-td3724185.html . Also, note that you'll have to use reply to all since the people on CC aren't subscribed to the design list.) Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Design-themed Hackfest
Hello all, I am quite excited to share with you the following from Michael Meeks: I'd love to get more of the design team's ideas turned into easy hacks - which (I think) would prolly be the best outcome of a hack-fest - getting developers to sit down and read around code in given areas. I think if we match the designers with developers 1-to-1, we could get some exciting things going there :-) Some of you might know that TDF recently organised a Hackfest [1] in Hamburg [2]... So, Michael Meeks is proposing is that the next Hackfest could be more design-themed. I know, I would love to see that and be there. However, are there other people that would be interested in going to such an event? [3] The prospective location would be South Tyrol (Italy), I can't say anything about the date yet. I think it would be a great occasion also discuss the viability of some ideas floating around here with developers (and maybe have implementations at the end). Additionally, it would be great to be able to work on the HIG... Of course, we would also meet in person which perhaps is the best part of such events. Astron. [1] That is: friendly people hacking together/discussing things – plenty of fun. [2] I was there, it was great, but see for yourself: some pictures and blog post should still be on our planet: http://www.planet.documentfoundation.org [3] It would most likely happen on a weekend, it will probably be possible to get reimbursed for travel costs. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Writer background image - contest! :-)
Hi all, just FYI, there were people some time ago that wanted to add a document background: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/DocumentBackground To me, the idea seems sensible, but just as Mirek said, just adding a document background doesn't make the application that much prettier. The thing that sticks out to me most in our Windows appearance is that we have glossy blue toolbars that clash with the Tango icons and also clash with the grey document border. Now, the glossy toolbars look native, so I think that's not something that we want to change, actually. The Tango icons may not fit on Windows, but they are the best icons we have and I know at least some people think Galaxy is impractical, both because it stands so much for the Ooo era and also because they are incredibly bland. What might, read: might help, is increasing the icon size by default to large and reducing toolbar elements, so we can fit all necessary toolbars in one row on the average screen [1]. What is indeed quick to fix is the document background. Applying the same sickly hue of blue that the toolbar backgrounds currently use, looks actually quite okay. Try setting the document background to RGB(221,227,243), for instance. Standing between the toolbars and the document there are still the rulers, and those are really ugly right now. However, we should _not_ remove them by default if we're also removing the statusbar [2], so what I would propose is to add some sort of gradient to the rulers such that the connect the chrome to the document background (maybe even the document itself). [1] A list of stuff we can probably remove from the standard toolbar: * Send as email (do people use that? for me, it doesn't play a role, because I usually want to check that I've done everything looks okay in an exported document.) * Print preview (I don't think that many people use it, ) * AutoSpellcheck (the only people who I've seen turn that off are people that are presenting stuff on OHP, but use a text document for that purpose; another use case would be making screenshots of eg diagrammes that you could add to another document later – we should encourage neither use case) * Format Paintbrush (counters our goal to encourage using styles) * Add Hyperlink (is usually added automatically) * Gallery (completely useless right now) * Non-printing characters (users set that once, never use it again) * Data sources (probably used rather seldomly) * Help (?? there's a menu for that ) [2] I still much prefer removing the status bar over removing the rulers. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] questions about the status bar
Hi Andrew, (Lots of IMHO's ahead, so beware.) I use it sometimes, it's useful when you are translating or creating a document in multiple languages (like instruction manuals) it sets the auto-correct to the language you are currently using, which is useful. It might not be used by most users who just have it in the language they always use, i guess you could also hide it, but i think the status bar would look a bit empty without it. Language switching is useful indeed, mostly for spell-checking. It helps an alot when you wonder why your entire German text has red underlines and then you notice: correction is still set to English. I think that its too cluttered with things that are do not need to be there. not sure what the document signature is. document notification should be shown in the title of the document with an * . My opinion as well. I just played with the insertion mode and selection mode. I now understand what insertion its referring to. you know the mode that replaces the text in front of the insertion point (the blinking line behind the text). If you click on this it will change. does anyone even use this mode any more. I would argue that today, nobody consciously/voluntarily uses Overwrite mode any more. However, we need to nix the mode completely before doing away with this indicator as it is actually quite common that people accidentally trigger Overwrite mode by pressing the Ins key on the keyboard. if you click on the selection mode it changes... well the selection mode. STD is standard mode. EXT seems to make it so that you can not select text, which I do not know why anyone would want to not be able to select text. Using EXT, you can select the text that is located between the text cursor position and the position of the mouse pointer. (EXTend the selection from text cursor to mouse pointer or something like that.) ADD will allow you to select another section of text, just like holding control and selecting more text. and then BLK selects a block of text... how is that useful. fill your screen with text, change the selection mode (the one that is set to STD) and click drag something in the middle of the screen. can anyone tell me where this would be useful. I have no idea, I personally never needed it. I believe it's probably useful for a minority of users. The upside is that it doesn't seem easy to trigger these modes by accidentally pressing something. So removing the indicator should not be a problem. and finally page view should be under the view menu. Should be, yes. Instead, we currently have the View Zoom box which you can alternatively use. The View Zoom box definitely needs to go away sooner rather than later and be replaced by a menu. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] wheres the IRC meeting log?
Hi Andrew, sorry forgot to link to it. It's there now. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
Hi Alberto, first: welcome to the design list! On 13 April 2012 11:05, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think the developer team plans to support Windows 8 Metro anytime soon, so any work on it would be futile right now. I guess that is true, sadly. Hopefully, the Android tablet port will make LibO more touch-friendly at least – how that touch interface is written is still not fully decided, I think, so it _might_ even be portable to Windows. Also, there's at least a bit of similarity shared between all of the new-fangled touch-friendly platforms, so maybe there are synergies. You might want to have a look at one of the Tablet UI whiteboards that Mirek started: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tablet_Writer Hope that helps in some way, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat + whiteboards
Hi Mirek, I don't remember seeing Daud, Michelr, or S.Gecko anywhere on the mailing Rafael Daud was at the chat last week – without saying anything. Oh, ok. Saw that in the log... Michel ... haven't heard anything either. S. Gecko's whiteboard has been hijacked by Andrew anyway. So, I guess, Andrew should deal with either radically cleaning it up or shelving it. We need to determine the scope of the thing. Otherwise, the conversion went well. Sorry, what do you mean by the conversion went well..? Are we speaking of the same whiteboard here? I mean: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/MenuIdeas ... which hasn't been converted yet. Mirek, I guess it would be the best if you could pick anything that's useful for a Hide the Status Bar whitebooard (as proposed by Kendy) and shelve everything you can't use use under Whiteboards/Archive. As I understand it, under Kendy's proposal, the status bar would still be available under View but just hidden by default. Therefore, a reordering of the status bar still makes sense as a separate idea, but just shouldn't be our top priority. Of course, but most of the Paulo Jose's page is an analysis of what we have. I think that would be quite useful to determine which of these things we need even when the status bar is off by default, and which we can live without. Or do we want to dispense with the current status bar entirely? Perhaps replace it with something more contextual, like Chrome and Firefox have done? I am absolutely not opposed to even removing the status bar completely if there are other ways to keep the user informed about the things that are relevant. For instance, lots of information could instead be displayed within the rulers (like exact information about size and location of objects). Astron, on your PropertiesButtonLayout page, the summary should only state the goal of your whiteboard, such as Improve dialog usability. It should be a single design-oriented goal and it shouldn't suggest the solution (that's what the Proposal section is for). Right. I'll reword that. Current state should be at the top of Relevant art. Okay, yes. I would make a case for it being at the top (it is kinda important to know the status quo before reading through proposals), but it's late already. It's not at the top because it serves as inspiration for the new design. Ah, well... is the inspirational value of the designs that we want to replace really that high? Don't we rather want to analyse what the mistakes were that were made before instead of trying to build something very similar? I agree. (I put the toolbar whiteboard in there since it was an old whiteboard and belonged under HIG.) Good. Sorry if that sounded harsh. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Updated Whiteboard template with more instructional text
Hi Mirek, I'd prefer to keep the current summary, basically because it's a good example of what a whiteboard summary should look like -- a single sentence that precisely summarizes the purpose of the whiteboard. Well, besides teaching me a new word (pithy) (thanks!), I am not completely convinced here. One sentence will not be enough in most cases as there are often multiple problems with the current implementation and remedy usability problems in toolbar/dialog XY is not especially helpful as a summary, because it could be applied to virtually any whiteboard. What is a whiteboard? is answered in the Definition of terms section. Sure it is, but when you are a newcomer, you don't look for Terminology first. You look at the summary. As soon as you've understood the Whiteboard structure, of course you know there's a Terminology section and you can look for it. The warning to not use whiteboards for discussion isn't really of use for whiteboard creators, but rather for people who want to discuss the whiteboard. I think the sole link under Discussion makes it clear enough for all whiteboard visitors that all discussions take place on that link. Disagree again, if you're a newcomer ... (same reasoning). BTW, even people that are not subscribed to the list can post, so there's no need to use the Talk page on the wiki. Absolutely correct, will change. * the listed States do now use primarily nouns ok Cool. I like the stronger colors, but I'd prefer to have a red Out of Scope header. As LibreOffice doesn't have a red color among its marketing colors (oddly enough), could you make up one? Orange just doesn't have the same DON'T do this warning effect. I know. Orange is really odd and the lack of red is an oversight in our palette. I'll see what I can do (but I have no idea how that palette was created). Sometimes I wonder if we hadn't better embraced the Tango colours wholesale. That'd have avoided some of the obstacles with branding v/ theme etc. Obviously, it would have also created new problems, namely icons seeming less attractive on Windows systems. * there is now a sub-head called Owner I disagree with whiteboards having an owner. So, for one: two or more owners = no problem. For the other: we should have some clear responsibilities, I think. As for whether we call that position owner or maintainer ... idk, but I found owner to be clearer (but am open to change that). Anyway, I thought, we'd agreed upon having maintainers, no? and that links to bugs, relevant art, and proposals can be added by anyone in the community. Sure, I'll change that part of the instructions. It also means that nobody has a superior vote to the rest, which makes the design process more democratic. IMHO, we probably don't want to be the democratic enclave in the meritocratic community. There are a few reasons why this is a meritocracy, the most important being that people that aren't supposed to influence your process (of course we still _need_ to remain open to people that are currently not part of the community). I think the content of these is self-explanatory if you present examples of this content. Again, I'd prefer to keep the whiteboard template looking like a whiteboard. (The Tentative Design section hasn't been designed yet, that's why it uses descriptive text.) So... * Terminology – it's an extra definition, I think it doesn't hurt. * Bugs – can be a hard-to-understand term for less technical people. * Personas – this definitely needs an explanation (we've had a few design team members who didn't know what to make of it at first). * Relevant Art – we might get away without the text, I guess. Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] New icons in Tango
Hi all, about a week ago, Michael (M.) noticed on ux-advise that some icons in LibreOffice's Tango theme had been replaced. Well, I replaced those and didn't do the sensible thing and discuss these changes first... I'd like to make up for that lack of discussion. Thus, I've created a wiki page to show an overview over all the icons I've changed since 3.5: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Tango_refresh_3.6 The Start Center icons have been discussed on the Design list already, albeit mostly with Alex. There are a few icons that I feel are mostly uncritical (Media Player, Writer Toolbar, the icons imported from the official Tango theme in the Extension Manager) and of course there are some that definitely need another round of replacing (Open File, Extension) and some that hopefully only need refining (Formula f(x) icon). So, I would love to hear your feedback! (Of course, if you want to work on these further, that'd be great.[1]) Astron. [1] I have not yet uploaded the source SVG's, but as soon as I come around to doing that I will. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] New member
Hi Jean-Francois! It's great to have you on board. I can only second Mirek, great to have you here. The solution you proposed for the document margin problem is pretty elegant after all. :) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Updated Whiteboard template with more instructional text
Hi all, I'd like to propose some more changes to the Whiteboard Template, see here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Astron/Whiteboard_Template So, what has changed: * under Summary, there's now some instructional text (it's incomplete, but that's a feature, I wanted to be brief enough) * the listed States have do now use primarily nouns * there are some changes of colour for the State and the Scope table * there is now a sub-head called Owner * there is instructional text for Related Bugs, Terminology, Personas, Relevant Art What do you think, can I go ahead and change these things? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Change The Main Program's Window
Hi Ape, Archive main_window.7z contains images that I use. Interesting idea to remove the document icons from there. But why did you do that? The Templates icons you made seems a bit cluttered to me. The Open icon is interesting but doesn't fit with Tango. However, it should, since we need this icon in quite a number of places. Astron. PS: For anyone reading this, wondering which of these icons I actually did, the answer is: the three small ones at the bottom were done by Alex and me some time ago. The rest is ape's creation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Android UI rework
Hi Jonathan, Kévin, Agreed, there are so many ways that we could take this i think for now we just keep it simple and move forward with the work. then adapt and recode as necessary. I guess the best would be just having something like the start center and then if the user taps on open a file, show her a simple folder view. However, it would really be a good start if you could show us how far you are with your current idea with some screenshots/a functional prototype etc. Else, we're just having discussions in a vacuum. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: A Whiteboard template
Hi Mirek, all, I noticed that Gnome have these nice stars to signify what stage a proposal is in, so I wanted to do something similar. Thus, in the last couple minutes I fixed up this status timeline (not a real timeline since multiple states can be active at once): https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Astron/Whiteboard_Template How do you like it? How do you feel about the states that are in it? Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: A Whiteboard template
Hi Mirek, thanks for the feedback. I've updated my page accordingly. I like the general idea, though I'd prefer to use call for proposals or something along those lines rather than designs wanted so that we use the term proposals (same as the section name), then have something like analysis of proposals, for when we're discussing the pros and cons of Like discussing more... each proposal, but not developing a single design yet, then have design taking shape I'd favour something like finali[sz]ing proposal. Taking shape sounds as if there wasn't anything substantial yet (but I'd hope there is). I put it up on the whiteboard template. (BTW, I found the highlight color a bit too bright, so I toned it down a bit.) Sure. Might even help with accessibility. Although it might be good to use our branding colours here, see [1]. I've updated my page to reflect your feedback. Astron. [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Color_Table -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Tango Icons
Hi Cedric, I figured out that the folder icons in our Tango theme are greyish while the ones from the official Tango project are blue. That's a misconception. Tango is an icon style, not an icon set. The official set is a bit of a proof of concept, with extra-liberal licensing applied so everyone can use it. Other Tango sets include for instance, the Gnome 2 and Gnome 3 icon sets, as well as sets like Tangerine etc. It's worth noting that the official set, much like the set we inherited from Ooo, is currently unmaintained. Nevertheless, the grey (Tango, indeed) icons we currently ship look a bit drab. So, yes, do go ahead and replace them. I had (together with Alexander Wilms) a stab at our folder icons some time earlier (you can see that work in the start center and the toolbar Open icon), but I guess the icon just always turned out far too dark. In any case, I wouldn't mind seeing it replaced by the superior official set. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Tango Icons
Hi again, Cedric, Ape, Theme Tango includes a lot of Theme Industry's icons (Gnome-1), which have a gray color. Project Tango no has many icons, which are needed for LibreOffice. Right, this point from Ape might apply and hit you quite hard. It would be a good idea to check which separate folder icons are necessary before replacing just some of them. LibreOffice might actually have too many folder icons that Tango official can't cover. Theme Galaxy is better do not use, because the main size of large icons 26 by 26 pixels. Tango (GnomeDE, LXDE) requires that the icon had a big size 22 by 22 pixel, transparent border around it (one pixel), The 24*24px icons in Gnome are, AFAICT only there to ensure compatibility with older Gnome 2 apps. In early Gnome 2, the official Industrial theme used 24*24px. The Tango theme that replaced it 2.16 started using 22*22px icons. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] IRC logs
Hi, we just had our 2nd weekly design chat, the IRC log is available here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: REMINDER: IRC discussion is now! :-) (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat)
Hi Christoph, all, sorry for not being there at all when I said I could be... I was occupied with other stuff, and then seemingly didn't really get the GMT bit (else I would have risked at least with half an eye). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat
Hi Mirek, On 21 March 2012 09:09, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Christoph, I'm referring to the Issues and User Requests section, which does include suggestions such as the link to Jef van Schendel's Blog post. Not really an issue, though. That specific thing was my sole addition to the page. Aungh. Will try to rectify that. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] a question about adjusting the width of table in Writer
Hello Phelostor, The default table setting is extending the table horizontally to the left and to the right page margins, and in Table Format dialog when I need to set specific width of the table, I have to change the Alignment option first, then the check box of Width could be available. I just stumbled upon this, too, during normal work with LibreOffice. It's not extremely intuitive and I believe it would be good to at least make the influence of the Alignment options clearer. Would you mind opening a bug for this? (Preferably with some concrete idea(s) how to solve this.) See here: https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/ (I'd be personally interested in the bug number.) Next... the easiest way to resize a table is to use the rulers/table borders. Making the rulers/borders work in a better way (more information, more exactitude, maybe snapping) is probably an even better way to cope with the problem. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat
Hi Mirek, I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've decided that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the IRC to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like Let's talk design. (which conveniently abbreviates to Ltd.) and set (a) topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that? Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I guess we should use that. Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG, but we need to either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we need. Astron. [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Vertical zoom slider
Hi Kendy, So - what about to only show the percentage in the right bottom corner always, and when the user places the mouse pointer over that, it would [after a short timeout] extend to left (or upwards - whatever works better for the users], and show the entire slider? If we're discussing showing only one of the elements always, I'd strongly favour showing only the slider; not showing only the percentage. The reason is pretty simple: you can't interact with the percentage (at least today you can't), thus it seems more important that people can position their mouse cursor easily on the place where the slider is and use it immediately without having to wait for an animation to happen. At the moment, the right bottom corner is mostly unused when we have both scrollbars visible, so we would occupy just a slightly more space than now in the case it is not extended. Even today, we can't really put a 3–5 character percentage value between the scrollbars. Also, we'll have to deal with differently sized (read: tiny) scrollbars, Gnome 3.4's default scrollbars will look like [1], for instance. Ubuntu already does this sort of thing since a couple of releases with its overlay scrollbars. On the Mac OS X Lion, scrollbars in native apps are shown only when actually scrolling. [2] [3] Mirek's point of Gnome uses the bottom right corner already today is only true for Gnome Shell, but in the future it might also be a concern with other OS's. Windows 8 for instance uses screen corners in much the same way Gnome Shell does (albeit they don't currently use the bottom right corner). Regards, Astron. [1] http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/documents.png [2] This probably reads like an argumentation for the original proposal ... aungh. I believe though, that my proposal would be able to better serve legacy and new platforms at the same time. Not that I could be sure of that. [3] I am getting the feeling that it will be necessary to move Calc's split windows functionality elsewhere soon. Else, users won't be able to access this easily any more on enough Linux/Mac systems. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Suggestions
Hi Bhaavan, Maybe I should have changed the subject to something else before posting it on the dev list. In any case, I hope you eventually went through what is apparently the official channel for GSoC self-introduction, ie IRC, apparently. @Alex: thanks! Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Rework of the Templates and documents dialogue
Hi all, I meant both on hovering and on selection. Selection works on touch interfaces. Not that I could speak for Alex' intentions, but I guess that's a simple misunderstanding. I think double-click was supposed to close the dialogue and open the template. The alternative way to do that (AFAICS also available) would be single click on a template, then single click on Open (or whatever the primary button in the window will read eventually). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Vertical zoom slider
Hi again, sorry for being so negative. And, partly I can understand the reasoning. For instance, ~no one needs an indicator for overwrite mode, in fact the whole overwrite mode functionality should go (it's confusing far far more often than it is useful). We didn't really need an(other) indicator for saving status in the first place. We don't need an indicator for selection mode (although the selection modes themselves might be useful in some corner cases). (Etc.) I'm fully in support of putting the Book View/.. sub-layouts into the View menu. I see why you'd put the Language Picker in the context menu, even though for me personally it would be pretty bad. Still, I can't really see why the zoom indicator would need to be vertical, then. Why not keep it similar to today's zoom slider but put it in a floating box? You could use Fitts' Law all the same without cutting into the space available to the one scrollbar most people (still) need. (Yes, the counter-argument is that everyone is now hiding their scrollbars and I should just learn to love the bomb :)). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Vertical zoom slider
Hi Mirek, what problem does this solve? Sure, we then have a slightly less crowded status bar, but on the other hand LibO's scrollbar will be shorter and less useful (cf. horizontal scrollbar in Calc). Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Hello everyone.
Hi Maggie, Alex, On 8 March 2012 21:57, Alexander Wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com wrote: git is a version-control system. It was first developed for the Linux and LibreOffice uses it too. Right. So it's a (better) replacement for things like SVN/CVS/... (The gist of these tools is that you version a set of files and can easily see the history of each file or go back to previous versions.) You can download git from here: http://git-scm.com/ Here's an overview of all the repos libreoffice consists of: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice This page explains how to use git for getting the latest source and building it: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Native_Build In the section Getting the source you'd need to replace git://anongit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core with git://anongit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/website Thanks Alex. Maggie, please ask if any of that sounds too much like technobabble. Also, don't let the command line shock you. :) There are graphical UI's available, like e.g. http://sourceforge.net/projects/gitextensions/ Hope this helps a bit, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Suggestions
Hi Bhaavan, I am adding the dev list (libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org) here... Astron. On 9 March 2012 12:27, Bhaavan Merchant bhaavanmerch...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I am Bhaavan Merchant, and am a 3rd year undergrad student. I have been a part of this mailing list for sometime and now wish to take up a Google Summer of Code 2012 project under libreoffice. The ideas which interest me mainly are: a New Template picking UI, and an improved color picker tool. My skillset matches the requirement for this project, and I am fairly comfortable with C++. I have also some elementary experience with GTK and QT, which might help me with VCL. I have already been pulling git from the master branch in libre office for this. I am posting this here for some suggestions you could provide me for getting the project. I would really like to get inputs to create and improve my project proposal. It would be great if any of you could mentor me for the project. Also, I would appreciate if you direct me to a relevant user / mailing list (perhaps devel mailing list?) if this post is irrelevant here. Thank You, Bhaavan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Submit your Bold icons
- Using different letters creates words. I noticed this in my Citrus UI mockups -- B for bold, I for Italic, L for Line, C for color, and H for highlight put next to each other make me read it as bilch, which is quite close to an English swear. Thanks for this gem. :) Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)
Hi ape, Christoph, On 1 March 2012 19:40, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com wrote: A.1 I agree, but the Chart had a green frame in the OpenOffice.org_Galaxy_ver.3.0. Also targets A.2, A.3. The basic decision we've made was to only highlight the most essential document types and that led to only few colored application icons. The main goal is to avoid too much mixture of color (frame) and additional icons (the small graphic inside). A sub-goal is to establish the native TDF / LibreOffice symbol - for many people TDF and LibreOffice are still inexistent or very new ;-) Consequently, we do only serve 5 icons with colored frames to our users. For all other document types, icons with black borders are used. For example, also the HTML document icon features a black border - although it is opened in Writer. We also use a black border for the Master Document - because it only embeds other ODT documents (and due to the black border, Master Document icons and Writer Document icons can be easily distinguished when using very small icons sizes). Concerning the differentiation between document icon and application icon - there is none, because we estimated that it doesn't add any value. People start the application in a Start or Applications menu (no document icons to be seen here) and they mainly use documents when they browse documents (no applications to be started here). So we help users to get a straight connection if we avoid any differences ... Finally, personally I think these assumptions are still valid. But if the goals changed or the team comes to a different conclusion, then its surely time to update the icons. A.3 I'll be back to the provost embodiment, it is easy to do. A.4 I think you're wrong. Two files (ODT and DOC, ODG and VSD, ODS and XLS etc) have the same name. They will be denoted by the same symbol. You can not define the eyes, who is who, if Windows Explorer is turned off Hide extensions for known file types (see attachment). LibreOffice uses in its Explorer different *.png (images.zip) to ODF\MSO files and do not have this problem. First, most users shouldn't see our custom file picker at all. For good reason – it's a copycat of the Windows 95 file picker. In the custom file picker, we indeed use different icons, for instance, in Tango we have the following (these are examples): * .od*/.ot* – the LibO icons * .xls/.doc/.ppt – generic Tango spreadsheet/text document/presentation icons * .txt – Oracle's colourless standard ODT icon ... since we probably don't want to use generic Tango icons in Windows Explorer, to me it sounds like a better to try to unify the icons in the Tango theme (to use the normal LibreOffice icons). Should I do that? Hehe, concerning the last statement, then its a bug ;-) A bug in Windows' default options or a bug in LibreOffice? (And indepently of this: should we still try to fix it?) Seriously, nobody had the time to provide numerous icons for the same document type ... it might not only happen to MS Word files, but all other Text related documents LibreOffice is able to handle (Works, Word Pro, WordPerfect, ...). The main alternatives are: * use the same icon for LibreOffice and foreign (equivalent) document types * use one icon for LibreOffice and a different icon for all foreign (equivalent) document types * use individual icons for all document types The cheapest way to do that is probably to add file extensions to the icons. I don't know if we want that. B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256 applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify these figures. So, if I get it right, we need 96x96 icons, right? The question with that still is, if Vista/7 will accept the extra icon, I guess. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
