Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

As I understand it, the problem is that mirrors want to mirror Fedora using generic rsync, and ostree repositories have huge numbers of small files. To use rsync requires, at a minimum, a full directory walk, calling stat() every file on both the source and destination. From the little I know

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: > Nico Kadel-Garcia píše v Út 18. 07. 2017 v 22:44 -0400: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Debarshi Ray >> wrote: >> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 09:44:18AM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: >> > >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 5:12 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Richard Hughes wrote: >> Sure they can. If you install the KDE runtime and the GNOME runtime, >> these are both built upon the Freedesktop runtime and share a huge >> number of files. Any duplicate files get

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

> "OT" == Owen Taylor writes: OT> The issue with this is that nobody has yet figured out how to handle OT> OSTree repositories within the Fedora mirror infrastructure. While OT> OSTree repositories can be mirrored efficiently, they can't be OT> mirrored efficiently by

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Richard Hughes wrote: > Sure they can. If you install the KDE runtime and the GNOME runtime, > these are both built upon the Freedesktop runtime and share a huge > number of files. Any duplicate files get deduplicated on disk -- you > don't even download the duplicates when you update either or

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Thu, 2017-07-20 at 11:13 -0700, Japheth Cleaver wrote: > On 7/19/2017 8:05 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > On Wed, 2017-07-19 at 12:56 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > wrote: > > > [...] > > Bundling enables some of the key features of Flatpak - the ability to > > try out new versions of an

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 7/19/2017 8:05 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: On Wed, 2017-07-19 at 12:56 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 20:43, Owen Taylor wrote: [...] An example of where conditionals may be useful is when a library is bundled into a Flatpak - the rebuild for the flatpak

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017, at 08:49 AM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: > As Fedora is going to use (IIRC) Flatpack's in OCI format rather than > ostree, does it also work with OCI images? Both deduplication on disk, > and also delta-downloads? dedup is a tricky topic since we use SELinux;

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Thu, 2017-07-20 at 17:19 +0430, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: > /*Richard Hughes*/ wrote on Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:24:10 +0100: > > On 20 July 2017 at 04:10, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > It's even required. There is no support for unbundling anything beyond the > > > runtime at

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

/*Colin Walters*/ wrote on Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:43:12 -0400: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017, at 02:58 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: But if I've understood correctly, any changes to the base will be discarded when you update the base image. right? No; `rpm-ostree install` is persistent, and so are other

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

/*Richard Hughes*/ wrote on Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:24:10 +0100: On 20 July 2017 at 04:10, Kevin Kofler wrote: It's even required. There is no support for unbundling anything beyond the runtime at all, nor can runtimes share files without duplicating them. Sure they can.

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Thursday, 20 July 2017 at 10:24, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 04:10, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > It's even required. There is no support for unbundling anything beyond the > > runtime at all, nor can runtimes share files without duplicating them. > > Sure

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 20 July 2017 at 04:10, Kevin Kofler wrote: > It's even required. There is no support for unbundling anything beyond the > runtime at all, nor can runtimes share files without duplicating them. Sure they can. If you install the KDE runtime and the GNOME runtime, these

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > The bundling thing is what I'm afraid of. If we don't make it a > requirement or at least a strong recommendation to unbundle libraries > from Flatpaks, then we'll end up with Android app store-like > ecosystem, where everyone bundles everything which is not

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Chris Murphy wrote: > What happens on Fedora now, because applications are merged with the > OS, there are application updates that end up making some unnecessary > reboots compulsory. But with atomic + flatpak installations, there is > much better separation of when reboots are necessary. OS

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Bill Nottingham wrote: > This situation already exists, though - each of these systems are already > snowflakes if they're user-maintained: > - some apps installed via RPMs connected to Fedora repos > - some from COPRS > - some from Random RPM Downloaded From Third-Party Website > - some from

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 05:27:17PM +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > * We will track (via the PDC) what versions of what packages are > What's "PDC"? Part of Fedora Infrastructure: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ProductDefinitionCenter -- Matthew Miller

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wed, 2017-07-19 at 17:27 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 17:05, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > * Bundled libraries will not be arbitrary source code builds, they > > will > > be built from the exact same spec files in dist-git. > > * We will track (via

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:25:26PM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > Sure, but they can't have it both ways: be part of Fedora when they > need support, resources, testers and endorsement, and independent > project that owes nothing to anyone when it's time to integrate their > stuff in

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 17:05, Owen Taylor wrote: > On Wed, 2017-07-19 at 12:56 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 20:43, Owen Taylor wrote: > > [...] > > > An example of where conditionals may be useful is when a library is > > > bundled into a

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wed, 2017-07-19 at 12:56 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 20:43, Owen Taylor wrote: > [...] > > An example of where conditionals may be useful is when a library is > > bundled into a Flatpak - the rebuild for the flatpak could skip > > building the

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 07/17/2017 08:44 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Dusty Mabe wrote: >> I'm sure some people are aware but for those who aren't it is worth noting >> that we have an entire edition (atomic host) that is built around atomic >> updates for rpm content. > > Atomic updates for "rpm content", but not for

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 13:28, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 19 July 2017 at 11:56, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > And since there's no easy way > > to track bundled stuff inside Flatpaks, we're much worse off than > > where we are with RPM packages

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 19 July 2017 at 11:56, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > And since there's no easy way > to track bundled stuff inside Flatpaks, we're much worse off than > where we are with RPM packages currently. I'm getting somewhat sick of the hyperbole, but I'm wondering if

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 22:01, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 3:41 PM, wrote: [...] > > Then I'm glad there is absolutely no plan to preempt flatpack technical > > assessment by shipping one or more GNOME apps as flatpack-only, leaving > > Fedora

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 20:43, Owen Taylor wrote: [...] > An example of where conditionals may be useful is when a library is > bundled into a Flatpak - the rebuild for the flatpak could skip > building the developer docs because they have complicated build > dependencies (graphviz or

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 21:43, Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017, at 02:58 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > But if I've understood correctly, any changes to the base will be > > > discarded > > > when you update the base image. right? > > No; `rpm-ostree install` is persistent, and

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 12:21, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: [...] > $ flatpak remotes > Name Options > gnome user > gnome-apps user > $ flatpak remote-ls gnome-apps > error: Remote "gnome-apps" not found > > Now that's confusing. It shows me configured remotes, but

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

De: "Jiří Eischmann" > It's a group that focuses on building a desktop OS based on GNOME, yes, > that involves packaging of a sizable part of the GNOME stack, but that > doesn't mean that it's their job and obligation to package (any) GNOME > software. Sure, but they can't have it both ways:

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 17:15, Owen Taylor wrote: > On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 15:25 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 13:39, Mathieu Bridon wrote: > > > On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 13:23 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > > wrote: > > > > By the way, I

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Nico Kadel-Garcia píše v Út 18. 07. 2017 v 22:44 -0400: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Debarshi Ray > wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 09:44:18AM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > F29: packagers

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Neal Gompa píše v Út 18. 07. 2017 v 16:03 -0400: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Matthew Miller > wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:41:30PM +0200, nicolas.mailhot@laposte.n > > et wrote: > > > Then I'm glad there is absolutely no plan to preempt flatpack > > >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Debarshi Ray wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 09:44:18AM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: >> > F29: packagers (of graphical applications) must create Flatpaks of >> > their

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

De: "Owen Taylor" > But maybe it would be more useful to try it out the Flatpak and see > what the experience is like, and what needs to be improved? [*] I probably would if the resource profile was compatible with this chromebook storage capabilities. As it is I'm not too keen on having

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

> "OT" == Owen Taylor writes: OT> If Fedora packages just hardcoded FHS paths, then all the path OT> macros wouldn't be necessary to start with! Actually we've been making those really annoying macros more and more optional over time. The only one which is mandatory is

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

> In other words, GNOME Recipes is a special case, Again, I am just glad there is no plan to shift more and more apps to flatpack only before there is any assessment of how it actually works out. No more, no less, and for what it's worth. Cheers, -- Nicolas Mailhot

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:07:28PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > Matthew, as FPL I think you also shouldn't take sides here. There's a > lot of inflamatory rhetoric in this thread, and it's my opinion that > you've sided with what I'd call the "GNOME/Flatpak" camp, and ignored > some

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 04:00:10PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:41:30PM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > > Then I'm glad there is absolutely no plan to preempt flatpack > > technical assessment by shipping one or more GNOME apps as > > flatpack-only, leaving

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 21:41 +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > De: "Owen Taylor" > > > But I want to be clear that there is no *proposal* on the > > table to ship things Flatpak only, and *no proposed timescale*. And > > there won't be until we know how the tools work out for packagers,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:41:30PM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: >> Then I'm glad there is absolutely no plan to preempt flatpack >> technical assessment by shipping one or more GNOME apps as >>

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 3:41 PM, wrote: > > De: "Owen Taylor" > >> But I want to be clear that there is no *proposal* on the >> table to ship things Flatpak only, and *no proposed timescale*. And >> there won't be until we know how the tools work out for packagers,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:41:30PM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > Then I'm glad there is absolutely no plan to preempt flatpack > technical assessment by shipping one or more GNOME apps as > flatpack-only, leaving Fedora users for whom flatpack does not work > yet behind, and

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017, at 02:58 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > But if I've understood correctly, any changes to the base will be discarded > > when you update the base image. right? No; `rpm-ostree install` is persistent, and so are other changes like `rpm-ostree initramfs --enable` and so is the

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

De: "Owen Taylor" > But I want to be clear that there is no *proposal* on the > table to ship things Flatpak only, and *no proposed timescale*. And > there won't be until we know how the tools work out for packagers, how > Flatpak usage works out for users, and we have a significant body of >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: > > /*Chris Murphy*/ wrote on Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:28:53 -0600: >> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski >> wrote: > > ... >>> >>> >>> "One size fits everyone"

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 13:23 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 00:02, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler > at> > > wrote: > > > The problem is that the RPMs that go into the Flatpaks are not > >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

/*Chris Murphy*/ wrote on Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:28:53 -0600: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: ... "One size fits everyone" approach can be dangerous. It never does, in fact, fit everyone, and often sacrifices flexibility and

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

. Christian - Original Message - > From: "Owen Taylor" <otay...@redhat.com> > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > <devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:15:12 AM > Subject: Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graph

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18 July 2017 at 16:36, Joonas Sarajärvi wrote: > My guess, too, would be that it does not address this situation. Sure, flatpak doesn't do this, because it can't. If the application author wants to rev the schema of the config, then they have to handle to migration -- and it's

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Hi, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski kirjoitti 18.07.2017 klo 14:28: On Monday, 17 July 2017 at 13:15, Bastien Nocera wrote: [...] How does Flatpak handle application updates and downgrades when the application introduces incompatible changes to user data format between versions and supports

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 15:39, Chris Murphy wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski >> wrote: >> >> >> > Could you explain the benefits

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 15:25 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 13:39, Mathieu Bridon wrote: > > On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 13:23 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > wrote: > > > By the way, I can't figure out how to look inside a Flatpak and > > > review

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: > I'm not necessarily concerned about subverting (or "changing" as I would > prefer to think of it) the One True Fedora Way, if there are good reasons to > do so and it improves things. I don't know what you mean by One True

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: > On 18/07/17 14:55, Richard Hughes wrote: >> >> On 18 July 2017 at 14:52, Tom Hughes wrote: >>> >>> So what is the user experience of "updating" in this world? How does the >>> transition from one snapshot to

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) said: > > On a more general note I think a lot of people are assuming we're all > > horrible evil people, trying to subvert the One True Fedora Way. This > > is exceptionally poisonous and needs to stop, otherwise Fedora should > > to drop both the "Friends",

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: > On 18/07/17 14:39, Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski >> wrote: >> >> >>> Could you explain the benefits of Atomic system + few layered RPMs vs. a

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 15:06 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: > Nobody wants to have to resetup their desktop every day I do. I actually turn off my computer when I'm not using it, and start it again in the morning before I start working. -- Mathieu ___

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 15:39, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > > > Could you explain the benefits of Atomic system + few layered RPMs vs. a > > traditional Fedora installation? > > The OS itself is

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 08:35 +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > > > Even if it eventually succeeds crash-landing it in Fedora while > > > half > > > the security and management tools are lacking is a great way for > > > the > > > distribution to get an awful reputation, while others will

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18/07/17 14:55, Richard Hughes wrote: On 18 July 2017 at 14:52, Tom Hughes wrote: So what is the user experience of "updating" in this world? How does the transition from one snapshot to the next occur? Basically the same as now. Kalev added a gnome-software plugin that

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18/07/17 14:52, Richard Hughes wrote: On a more general note I think a lot of people are assuming we're all horrible evil people, trying to subvert the One True Fedora Way. This is exceptionally poisonous and needs to stop, otherwise Fedora should to drop both the "Friends", "Features" and

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 02:52:57PM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > On a more general note I think a lot of people are assuming we're all > horrible evil people, trying to subvert the One True Fedora Way. This > is exceptionally poisonous and needs to stop, otherwise Fedora should > to drop both the

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

- Original Message - > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > However we end up doing it, I think it'd be better if we could do it > > without you, whatever it is you do for Fedora. We, and certainly I, don't > > want this level of toxicity and utter malfeasance on a mailing-list that > > I'm

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18 July 2017 at 14:52, Tom Hughes wrote: > So what is the user experience of "updating" in this world? How does the > transition from one snapshot to the next occur? Basically the same as now. Kalev added a gnome-software plugin that downloads the new data, shows the OS

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:54:47AM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > Anyway let's close this branch of the thread, it is making me sick. Yes please. Thank you. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 08:35:58AM +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > Working on it is fine. Improving it is fine. Proposing > Fedora-generated Flatpacks outside of Fedora is fine. > > Planning to ship stuff as Flatpack only when basic questions such as > inter-component dependencies,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18 July 2017 at 14:25, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > In other words, it's not possible to inspect a binary flatpak without > installing it. You can install it to /tmp... gnome-software actually "installs" the flatpakref into a temp directory so that we can

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 03:29:00AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Fedora also still provides the infrastructure for building flatpaks, > > hosting to distribute and mirror them, review of flatpak image manifests, > > quality testing before release, and more. Essentially the things that > > Fedora

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 18/07/17 14:39, Chris Murphy wrote: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: Could you explain the benefits of Atomic system + few layered RPMs vs. a traditional Fedora installation? The OS itself is versioned and binary identical to

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > Could you explain the benefits of Atomic system + few layered RPMs vs. a > traditional Fedora installation? The OS itself is versioned and binary identical to any other installation with the same

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 13:39, Mathieu Bridon wrote: > On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 13:23 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > By the way, I can't figure out how to look inside a Flatpak and > > review its contents. Could someone provide some pointers? > > On the repo all you have is

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 14:40, Vít Ondruch wrote: > > > Dne 18.7.2017 v 13:23 Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski napsal(a): > > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 00:02, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler > >> wrote: > >>> The problem is

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Dne 18.7.2017 v 13:23 Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski napsal(a): > On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 00:02, Michael Catanzaro wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler >> wrote: >>> The problem is that the RPMs that go into the Flatpaks are not FHS- >>> compliant,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 13:23 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > By the way, I can't figure out how to look inside a Flatpak and > review its contents. Could someone provide some pointers? On the repo all you have is an object store (much like Git's .git/objects/ folder), but if you

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Monday, 17 July 2017 at 13:15, Bastien Nocera wrote: [...] > "Fixing the update tools" doesn't fix the breakage handled by applications > when you change files from underneath them. Again, read the original threads > to get a complete picture. > > And when you take it all into account, the fix

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 at 00:02, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler > wrote: > > The problem is that the RPMs that go into the Flatpaks are not FHS- > > compliant, so the RPMs will have to carry some conditionals and be built > >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Kevin Kofler píše v Út 18. 07. 2017 v 03:06 +0200: > Jiří Eischmann wrote: > > I agree with Matt here, Fedora Project's mission (neither the old > > one, > > nor the new draft) doesn't say anything about RPM. RPM is just > > means to > > an end, not the goal. And I don't know why Fedora should be

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

- Mail original - De: "Kevin Kofler" >> Please, do leave, so you don't have to endure our apparent incompetence. > Nicolas Mailhot has done a lot of work on font packaging and organizing the > Fonts SIG. Thanks a lot Kevin. However, that really should not matter. Many people here make

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

>> Even if it eventually succeeds crash-landing it in Fedora while half >> the security and management tools are lacking is a great way for the >> distribution to get an awful reputation, while others will rip the >> fruits of this work some years later. >I'm entirely puzzled about how you think

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 7/17/2017 10:22 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 11:13:28PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Miller wrote: I strongly dispute the idea that Fedora must be tied to a particular packaging technology. The particular packaging technology is what ensures that we have a

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > Use of RPM is merely a particular historical choice of delivery mechanism, > and certainly not the defining characteristic of what it means to be the > Fedora distribution. For users consuming the Fedora desktop, the fact that > they're using RPM is hidden away as an

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 02:58:52AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > Yeah, that last point is the real difficult issue, it forces you to keep > > the RPM in parallel with the flatpak, unless we were to either change > > RPM (yuk), or find a way to auto-generate a RPM

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Bastien Nocera wrote: > However we end up doing it, I think it'd be better if we could do it > without you, whatever it is you do for Fedora. We, and certainly I, don't > want this level of toxicity and utter malfeasance on a mailing-list that > I'm supposed to be subscribed to. > > Please, do

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Jiří Eischmann wrote: > I agree with Matt here, Fedora Project's mission (neither the old one, > nor the new draft) doesn't say anything about RPM. RPM is just means to > an end, not the goal. And I don't know why Fedora should be tied to RPM > forever. Really successful brands don't die when

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > Yeah, that last point is the real difficult issue, it forces you to keep > the RPM in parallel with the flatpak, unless we were to either change > RPM (yuk), or find a way to auto-generate a RPM wrapper around the flatpak > to pull in it contents. You need to keep the

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > I had to write a script to read the dnf planned transaction log and finish > installing and erasing remaining packages, and manually run any %posttrans > scripts. Such a dnf-complete-transaction script would be a nice addition to DNF. Kevin Kofler

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Michael Stahl wrote: > no, the worst case is this: > > https://www.happyassassin.net/2016/10/04/x-crash-during-fedora-update-when-system-has-hybrid-graphics-and-systemd-udev-is-in-update/ That was a one-time bug that is already fixed. It also affected only systems with hybrid graphics, lots of

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Bastien Nocera wrote: > It's like you didn't listen to the arguments when this feature was > implemented in Fedora years ago, and continue not to. You're wrong, and > the fact that you keep insisting you're not is frankly intellectual > dishonesty. I am using online updates of RPMs all the time.

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Dusty Mabe wrote: > I'm sure some people are aware but for those who aren't it is worth noting > that we have an entire edition (atomic host) that is built around atomic > updates for rpm content. Atomic updates for "rpm content", but not for actual RPMs, unfortunately, only for blobs composed

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

Daniel Walsh wrote: > I read this like containers are something new and interesting. Nope, we are saying they are something new and uninteresting. ;-) > Upstream docker project started this effort a few years ago and the world > has latched onto it. Fedora needs to adjust and become great at >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 05:02:42PM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > I think that's probably worthwhile. The way I see it, we have a > large number of users who prefer an entirely RPM-based system, > although most users would be better off with an Atomic system and > just layering a few RPMs on

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Fri, 2017-07-14 at 21:29 +0200, Lars Seipel wrote: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:26:04PM -0500, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: > > But we have not been. Very few applications actually have SELinux > > profiles, > > and they are all maintained downstream rather than upstream. The > > volume of > >

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: The problem is that the RPMs that go into the Flatpaks are not FHS- compliant, so the RPMs will have to carry some conditionals and be built twice. Yes, that is true. Some apps will have to be patched for Flatpak,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Mon, 2017-07-17 at 17:51 +0200, nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: > > There's a > > burning the ships sort of appeal in that approach, > > Actually, the correct analogy would be "burning platform" (and we all > know how well that ended). I almost certainly should avoid responding to such

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 13:43 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 02:56:34PM -0700, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: > > This is only a problem because Flatpak is currently following the > > IMO > > rather busted old Android model. With very few, if any, exceptions, > > I > > think a much

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 07/17/2017 03:14 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Michael Stahl wrote: On 17.07.2017 19:26, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:03:13PM +0200, Michael Stahl wrote: On 16.07.2017 12:54, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Fri, Jul 14,

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Michael Stahl wrote: > On 17.07.2017 19:26, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:03:13PM +0200, Michael Stahl wrote: >>> On 16.07.2017 12:54, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 04:59:37PM +, Debarshi

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 17.07.2017 19:26, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:03:13PM +0200, Michael Stahl wrote: >> On 16.07.2017 12:54, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 04:59:37PM +, Debarshi Ray wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 09:44:18AM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On 07/14/2017 05:04 PM, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 20:28, Andreas Tunek wrote: >> Is this really more reliable than using dnf (for graphical packages >> like Recepies and Builder)? > > It's hugely more reliable. You can't actually trust rpm to do

Re: F27 System Wide Change: Graphical Applications as Flatpaks

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 09:48:46AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 05:17:44PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:42:15PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > On

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