subject:"Re\: \[OT\] mobile rising"


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 20:22:21 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:


Hmmm, i get home to find eight messages from codebaby, he sees 
sockpuppets everywhere, snapping at every bit of bait I laid... 
says he'll ignore my whole comment and then replys to it 
another two times, LOL, a full on meltdown and then he tops it 
all with the equivalent of "come back and get whats coming to 
you.. I'll bite your legs off".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690

I think I might retire.

See what trolling is now? See the difference between someone 
just arguing with you and someone actually f***ing with you.


Probably not.


ohh no... the killer bunny.. strikes again ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Dave Jones via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:55:59 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys.

Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the 
box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something 
that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate 
Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that 
use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed 
why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you 
played the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what 
real programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor 
and store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are 
best. The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they 
are not real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters.


[...]


Hey Dave..I still got plenty of more energy left, if you wanna 
keep at it.


Hmmm, i get home to find eight messages from codebaby, he sees 
sockpuppets everywhere, snapping at every bit of bait I laid... 
says he'll ignore my whole comment and then replys to it another 
two times, LOL, a full on meltdown and then he tops it all with 
the equivalent of "come back and get whats coming to you.. I'll 
bite your legs off".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690

I think I might retire.

See what trolling is now? See the difference between someone just 
arguing with you and someone actually f***ing with you.


Probably not.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 13:39:07 UTC, codephantom wrote:
On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 13:34:00 UTC, realdonaldtrump 
wrote:
Lol now I know ur full of it cause real football is only found 
in America.


With their cute little helmets. I love it.

We don't need no helmets over here.


Oh..and their cute little sholder pads.

We don't need those over here either.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 13:34:00 UTC, realdonaldtrump 
wrote:
Lol now I know ur full of it cause real football is only found 
in America.


With their cute little helmets. I love it.

We don't need no helmets over here.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 13:34:00 UTC, realdonaldtrump 
wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:50:20 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:
I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about 
pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, 
sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool



utd and liverpool? just bunch of little kiddies kicking around 
a ball.


If you want to play real football, come over here to 
Australia, and play AFL.


utd and liverpool? Hahhh! Hah! Hahh.


Lol now I know ur full of it cause real football is only found 
in America.  Also ur arguments are worthless


Is this another one of Jerry's accounts?

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread realdonaldtrump via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:50:20 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:
I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about 
pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, 
sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool



utd and liverpool? just bunch of little kiddies kicking around 
a ball.


If you want to play real football, come over here to Australia, 
and play AFL.


utd and liverpool? Hahhh! Hah! Hahh.


Lol now I know ur full of it cause real football is only found in 
America.  Also ur arguments are worthless

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys.

Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the 
box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something 
that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate 
Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that 
use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed 
why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played 
the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what real 
programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor and 
store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. 
The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not 
real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters.


[...]


Hey Dave..I still got plenty of more energy left, if you wanna 
keep at it.


And I don't need to take a nap, or a *snort*, to keep it going.

(But I'm guessing your catching up on sleep at the momemt...a 
couple of lines of typing at your age will do that to you).

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:
I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about 
pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, 
sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool



utd and liverpool? just bunch of little kiddies kicking around a 
ball.


If you want to play real football, come over here to Australia, 
and play AFL.


utd and liverpool? Hahhh! Hah! Hahh.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:46:42 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Considering you kept ignoring my evidence of Android and 
jumping to Apple, I'd say that it was perfectly accurate.


Oh well, I'm focusing on what I am interested in… Anyway, it is 
rather obvious that subjective ad-hominem statements in a debate 
hardly will be «perfectly accurate» (you were dead wrong, and 
that is perfectly accurate, of course ;-)


I didn't say you were confused, the "confused" comments that 
Walter pasted were made to Tony.  But thank you for 
demonstrating that it happens to you too. ;)


I am never confused. Get it? NEVER!!!

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 11:33:08 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 10:26:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:

I accurately characterized the tenor of their problem


Uhm… «accurately» ?? LOL!! 8'D


Considering you kept ignoring my evidence of Android and jumping 
to Apple, I'd say that it was perfectly accurate.


generalize and point that out, ie he _was_ confused in the 
points he was making.


I am never confused, but this is dlang.org, I've seen worse…


Heh, I'm not sure I could ask for a better demo than this. :) I 
didn't say you were confused, the "confused" comments that Walter 
pasted were made to Tony.  But thank you for demonstrating that 
it happens to you too. ;)

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

I'm old and don't give a shit .


Perhaps it's all that *snorting*...that stuff will do that to you.

Go see your local doctor, cause I believe there's something you 
can take..to get it all flowing again...

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 10:26:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:

I accurately characterized the tenor of their problem


Uhm… «accurately» ?? LOL!! 8'D

generalize and point that out, ie he _was_ confused in the 
points he was making.


I am never confused, but this is dlang.org, I've seen worse…

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 10:26:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:
I'm not sure why you're picking out my comments from arguments 
I had with Ola and Tony days ago at the end of all this, but we 
had OT conversations about OS market share where I felt they 
were repeatedly making the same mistake.


After going a couple rounds with them on these two issues, I 
accurately characterized the tenor of their problem, fairly 
mildly I would say.  I would not in any sense call that 
"berating," though I did harp on each issue a couple times 
before making these negative statements about them.


In any case, they gave as good as they got, and none of the 
three of us complained, AFAIK.  I don't see why you want to 
step in now and mischaracterize that as "berating."  If someone 
is repeatedly making the same mistake, I think it's fair to 
generalize and point that out, ie he _was_ confused in the 
points he was making.


I'd have to agree with you. I was following that conversation and 
didn't think either party was all that serious..t'was just a 
robust conversation ;-)


If we're going to talk about people 'berating'..we should have 
started with Jerry, and then moved on to the great 
'contributions' from so-called 'Dave Jones'.


And I'm still not sure they're not both one in the same.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:


Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys.

Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the 
box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something 
that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate 
Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that 
use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed 
why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played 
the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what real 
programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor and 
store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. 
The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not 
real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters.


I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about 
pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, 
sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool, and there are always so 
many opportunities to take offence when you're young now 
I'm old and don't give a shit its taken me 32 pages to build up 
enough energy to post two bleeding paragraphs. So ignore my 
first comment, enjoy while you're young, it's good to see a 
couple of young bucks trying to spill each others guts onto the 
newsgroup!



Make sure you get a good sleep...it'll be pretty hard for you to 
find enough energy to my response, to your awful comments. But 
I'm told a good sleep tends to help abit, when you're over the 
hill


don't forget the *snort* too...I'm told that really helps at your 
age as well.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 16:02:14 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:


Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys.

Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the 
box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something 
that just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate 
Microsoft, and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that 
use that crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed 
why, but he clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played 
the I use a plain text editor card, cause that's what real 
programmers do. Real programmers use a DOS text editor and 
store shit on tape... i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. 
The kids these days with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not 
real programmers, just monkeys with typewriters.


I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about 
pointless crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, 
sony vs nintendo, utd vs liverpool, and there are always so 
many opportunities to take offence when you're young now 
I'm old and don't give a shit its taken me 32 pages to build up 
enough energy to post two bleeding paragraphs. So ignore my 
first comment, enjoy while you're young, it's good to see a 
couple of young bucks trying to spill each others guts onto the 
newsgroup!



Well... I don't know... what kind of person jumps on the forums 
to say things like this... I don't get it...


I think I'll just 'ignore'  your whole comment.

Are you sure you're not Jerry...or his brother maybe..what about 
his old, old, old father perhaps?

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 09:56:05 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1185516


*snort* scientific yeah.. he called you names, so you called 
him names, so he called you names.. every child in the 
playground knows that game.


A bit less *snorting* and perhaps you'd be able to understand 
(let alone find) the D spec...and then you'd know what 'auto ref' 
means, instead of having to ask such a simple question on these 
forums.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 09:56:05 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1185516


*snort* scientific yeah.. he called you names, so you called 
him names, so he called you names.. every child in the 
playground knows that game.


a bit less *snorting* and maybe you'd be able to understand that 
research paper...one day.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 09:51:33 UTC, Dave Jones wrote:

That's it little fella let it all out...

*passes codebaby a tissue*


really?

you think that was a useful contribution?

who are you anyway?

One of Jerry's 'other' accounts perhaps?

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:48:43 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 11/8/2017 1:36 PM, Joakim wrote:

You don't want to own up to the fact that

Please refrain from berating others here.


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:54:07 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 11/10/2017 3:28 AM, Joakim wrote:

Your logic is extremely confused.

[...]

You seem to be confused


Please stop berating others here.


I'm not sure why you're picking out my comments from arguments I 
had with Ola and Tony days ago at the end of all this, but we had 
OT conversations about OS market share where I felt they were 
repeatedly making the same mistake.


After going a couple rounds with them on these two issues, I 
accurately characterized the tenor of their problem, fairly 
mildly I would say.  I would not in any sense call that 
"berating," though I did harp on each issue a couple times before 
making these negative statements about them.


In any case, they gave as good as they got, and none of the three 
of us complained, AFAIK.  I don't see why you want to step in now 
and mischaracterize that as "berating."  If someone is repeatedly 
making the same mistake, I think it's fair to generalize and 
point that out, ie he _was_ confused in the points he was making.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Dave Jones via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 01:14:32 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:47:46 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote:

harassing people isn't defending your argument.


Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it.

You have to be harassed to know what if feels like.

That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know 
how I felt when you harassed me.


A more 'scientific' way of saying that, is that I was 
attempting to turn the observer into the actor.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1185516


*snort* scientific yeah.. he called you names, so you called him 
names, so he called you names.. every child in the playground 
knows that game.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-13 Thread Dave Jones via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:47:46 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote:

harassing people isn't defending your argument.


Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it.

You have to be harassed to know what if feels like.

That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know 
how I felt when you harassed me.


That's it little fella let it all out...

*passes codebaby a tissue*

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d


On 11/10/2017 3:28 AM, Joakim wrote:

Your logic is extremely confused.

[...]

You seem to be confused


Please stop berating others here.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d


On 11/8/2017 1:36 PM, Joakim wrote:

You don't want to own up to the fact that

Please refrain from berating others here.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:47:46 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote:

harassing people isn't defending your argument.


Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it.

You have to be harassed to know what if feels like.

That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know 
how I felt when you harassed me.


A more 'scientific' way of saying that, is that I was attempting 
to turn the observer into the actor.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1185516

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote:

You weren't attacked and you aren't a victim ...


Another quote to add..thanks.

Keep em' coming... I could make money of this...

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:41:32 UTC, Jerry wrote:

harassing people isn't defending your argument.


Yeah...it's not nice...being harassed..is it.

You have to be harassed to know what if feels like.

That was my objective. Not to harass you, but to let you know how 
I felt when you harassed me.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:22:46 UTC, codephantom wrote:
It's so like people these days, and even on these forums, to 
attack the ones sticking up for themselves, rather than 
stopping them from being attacked in the first place, just for 
having a different opinion - or god forbid...making a joke 
about MSFT.


You weren't attacked and you aren't a victim stop trying to paint 
yourself one you stated an opinion and a counter argument was 
made nothing more or less no one called you names or fanboy or 
whatever and if you wanted it to stop you could have just stopped 
posting instead of posting your own harassment you aren't 
defending yourself if you are constantly calling other people 
"msft fanboys" harassing people isn't defending your argument.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:40:29 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:36:17 UTC, Jerry wrote:
It's easy to take a single sentence out of context maybe i 
should just keep everything as one long protruding sentence so 
that you are forced to quote everything so that you you won't 
misinterpret what it means by what I don't know maybe you just 
read the one sentence then decided you didn't feel like 
reading the rest cause you thought you saw what you wanted and 
then proceeded to post immediately without thinking as you for 
some reason needed to make four separate posts anyways have 
fun reading this sentence without proper punctuation maybe 
you'll come to appreciate it and actually quote the entire 
meaningful part of a text.


What?

I can even understand C# better than this.


:) Glad you got the point.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Monday, 13 November 2017 at 00:36:17 UTC, Jerry wrote:
It's easy to take a single sentence out of context maybe i 
should just keep everything as one long protruding sentence so 
that you are forced to quote everything so that you you won't 
misinterpret what it means by what I don't know maybe you just 
read the one sentence then decided you didn't feel like reading 
the rest cause you thought you saw what you wanted and then 
proceeded to post immediately without thinking as you for some 
reason needed to make four separate posts anyways have fun 
reading this sentence without proper punctuation maybe you'll 
come to appreciate it and actually quote the entire meaningful 
part of a text.


What?

I can even understand C# better than this.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 00:24:31 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:


Taking away the start button wasn't that big of a deal.


Thanks...another qoute to add to:

'The famous quotes of Jerry the MSFT fanboy'.


It's easy to take a single sentence out of context maybe i should 
just keep everything as one long protruding sentence so that you 
are forced to quote everything so that you you won't misinterpret 
what it means by what I don't know maybe you just read the one 
sentence then decided you didn't feel like reading the rest cause 
you thought you saw what you wanted and then proceeded to post 
immediately without thinking as you for some reason needed to 
make four separate posts anyways have fun reading this sentence 
without proper punctuation maybe you'll come to appreciate it and 
actually quote the entire meaningful part of a text.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 22:39:36 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 11/10/2017 2:54 PM, codephantom wrote:

 MSFT fanboy...at it again...


Knock it off, everyone.


Oh gee..Sorry daddy.

...maybe you have jumped in a few 100 threads ago, and addressed 
your response to the actual perpertrator that began this..ie. 
when Jerry the MSFT fanboy decided to start have a go at me - 
personally - for suggesting I should be able to build a 64bit 
binary with D, without spending a whole day downloading GB's of 
proprietory bloatware.


Or maybe, when Jonathan M Davies started bashing on me - 
personally - for linking to a humourous video about windows 10, 
as a way to suggest we proceed with caution when taking advice 
from MSFT.


It's so like people these days, and even on these forums, to 
attack the ones sticking up for themselves, rather than stopping 
them from being attacked in the first place, just for having a 
different opinion - or god forbid...making a joke about MSFT.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d


On 11/10/2017 2:54 PM, codephantom wrote:

 MSFT fanboy...at it again...


Knock it off, everyone.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 10:18:09 UTC, Tony wrote:
But those humans at the top, working for public companies, are 
monitored by a board and stockholders who place "making money" 
as the main, and normally only, measure of their job 
performance.


Sure, when you get a leader that is weak on vision then he or she 
might opting for milking the customer base to satisfy stock 
owners and over time erode support… So there most certainly can 
be radical changes when the original «gründer» or a strong 
«visonary» is displaced. I think it would have been very 
difficult to displace Steve Jobs though.


You could probably make the same argument about IKEA. As long as 
the original vision is strong (good value affordable-DIY 
furniture) then it will be difficult to displace, with weak 
leadership that could erode and profits would outweigh vision and 
they would erode their brand (what-we-are-all-about).


"growing and retaining market share" is a part of "all about 
making money", to me. My definition of "not all about making 
money" is when a company does things to benefit the environment 
or citizens or employees that they could have legally avoided, 
which gives them lower profits than they would have had from 
the other course of action.


It all depends. Are the stock markets fully rational? Probably 
not, many invest based on what they think other investors will 
like and not by analysing objective measures of profits.  Some 
companies are not even on the stock market (i.e. IKEA is a 
foundation). Will stock markets only reward companies that have 
good objective profits to show to or will they also reward 
companies that have low profit margins but are insanely big?


IBM were insanely big in terms of market dominance. Silicon 
Graphics and SUN were big in high-performance computing. Where 
did that go? There is a perception that being big will 
necessarily mean large profits in the future. That may be the 
case, but it could also mean that you've got a juggernaut that is 
difficult to steer…


However, I think it is very difficult for a company over time to 
retain a strong brand vision if they only care about short-term 
profits. With weak leaders that are not capable of projecting 
visions then the share owners will take control and perhaps send 
the company in the wrong direction… With good communication of 
strong visions it is harder to get a majority behind such changes.


I see Amazon as foregoing profits now for growth - and also 
wiping out the competition - in order to reap massive profits 
in the future.  At least, I haven't heard of them foregoing 
profits in order to benefit employees, citizens or the 
environment. Their stock price has a very high valuation (PE 
ration of 285.1), reflective of investors expecting massive 
profits in the future.


Right, but how rational is that analysis? I find better deals and 
better products on dedicated netshops. If Amazon controlled the 
search applications, then it would look more certain. But as long 
as there are free price-comparison applications… Who knows if 
being that generic will be an advantage.


E.g. is it conceivable that Amazon could beat IKEA? And will 
people in the future buy physical books, music or movies? What is 
the long term market place for Amazon?


(I like Amazon for convenience though.)

That is what I see as the Apple way of doing things from their 
beginning back in the late 1970s. They make premium and/or 
unique products and then mark them up more than anybody in the 
industry. Their products have always been unique with regard to 
the OS (except for a year or two when they allowed Mac clones) 
making the situation that no other manufacturer can offer an 
identical product.


Sure, but Steve Jobs understood that they should try to make 
their products available on the grass-root level also. So they 
made a line that was affordable enough for people to buy for 
school class rooms and teenagers. Those are future customers, so 
even if you don't make large profit margins it is a good 
investment. iOS is a bit generic and identity-less compared to 
say MacOS.


Current Apple management does not understand that and schools get 
good deals on Windows PCs instead…

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Dave Jones via Digitalmars-d


On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 02:07:03 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:
When I joined the forum a little while back, I dared to 
suggest that D should be able to compile a 64bit binary on 
Windows, without having to relying on gigabytes of 
proprietaty, closed source, bloat from MSFT.


I stand by that comment, despite the harrassment from the 
many MSFT fanboys on these forums.


Acting as victim, you've done more harassing than anyone. How 
ironic you label people "MSFT fanboy" in the same sentence you 
cry harassment.


And again, I'd like to point out to everyone, that the attack 
on me, in this thread, started becasue I dared to suggest you 
should be able to compile a 64bit D executable, on Windows, 
without have to download GB's of propriatey, closed-source, 
bloatware.


Jesus Christ you big pair of fecking babys.

Nobody argued it wouldn't be better to have 64 bit out of the 
box. They argued you were making a big deal out of something that 
just works for most everyone else. And yes you hate Microsoft, 
and windows, and visual studio, and the chumps that use that 
crap. Jerry hates you for something, i think i missed why, but he 
clearly thinks you're a bit slow. Oh and you played the I use a 
plain text editor card, cause that's what real programmers do. 
Real programmers use a DOS text editor and store shit on tape... 
i mean punch cards, punch cards are best. The kids these days 
with their fancy I.. D.. E..s, they are not real programmers, 
just monkeys with typewriters.


I wish I was young again. I used to love arguing about pointless 
crap, i couldn't resit it, mac vs pc, risc vs cisc, sony vs 
nintendo, utd vs liverpool, and there are always so many 
opportunities to take offence when you're young now I'm old 
and don't give a shit its taken me 32 pages to build up enough 
energy to post two bleeding paragraphs. So ignore my first 
comment, enjoy while you're young, it's good to see a couple of 
young bucks trying to spill each others guts onto the newsgroup!

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-12 Thread Tony via Digitalmars-d

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 14:28:10 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:55:24 UTC, Tony wrote:
Very few companies are not "all about making money". That is 
why Americans were laid off by the millions and replaced by 
workers in countries with much cheaper labor rates. Bad for 
the workers, good for "making money". Apple isn't unique in 
making all it's products outside the USA.


I understand what you mean, but I don't think it is a 
scientific fact that companies are all about making money. They 
are run by humans with a set of beliefs and desires which they 
operate under…


But those humans at the top, working for public companies, are 
monitored by a board and stockholders who place "making money" as 
the main, and normally only, measure of their job performance.


Anyway, even companies that are all about making money need to 
think long term, meaning to take care of their long term 
reputation. Microsoft was not all about making money in the 
90s, but they were all about growing and retaining market share 
using bad business practices and that cost them their 
reputation among IT professionals.


"growing and retaining market share" is a part of "all about 
making money", to me. My definition of "not all about making 
money" is when a company does things to benefit the environment 
or citizens or employees that they could have legally avoided, 
which gives them lower profits than they would have had from the 
other course of action. There are donations for various causes 
made by some public companies, but I think those are normally an 
insignificant percentage of their profits.


Companies like Amazon are more about growth than making money… 
Some banks are more about being big than making money long 
term… Too big to fail and the government will save your ass. 
Etc.


I see Amazon as foregoing profits now for growth - and also 
wiping out the competition - in order to reap massive profits in 
the future.  At least, I haven't heard of them foregoing profits 
in order to benefit employees, citizens or the environment. Their 
stock price has a very high valuation (PE ration of 285.1), 
reflective of investors expecting massive profits in the future.




I don't know. I use a mac daily, but there is not a single 
product in their line today that is anywhere near good value 
compared by what you get by building your own Linux/Windows box 
or buy a quality non-Apple product from Samsung or Asus…


That is what I see as the Apple way of doing things from their 
beginning back in the late 1970s. They make premium and/or unique 
products and then mark them up more than anybody in the industry. 
Their products have always been unique with regard to the OS 
(except for a year or two when they allowed Mac clones) making 
the situation that no other manufacturer can offer an identical 
product.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:
..if people had their way we would still be in the stone age 
cause they were more comfortable with using stones than having 
to learn to use something new.




I'll add that one as well, to Jerry's famous quotes.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:

Whether to use Visual Studio or not isn't a "design decision".
It's not relatable in the slightest bit.
It's a tool that generates a binary file.



... a multi-GB tool ...just to generate a binary...

Thank. Another qoute to add to:

'The famous quotes of Jerry the MSFT fanboy'.

Don't tell me, that the design of C# isn't heavily aligned with 
MSFT corporate stratedy to ensure you're tied to a specific 
version VS, .NET, and Windows.


That's why C# has moved to point releases.

Point releases require you to upgrade this, or upgrade that.

That's why we should be suspicous (at least) about design 
decisions going in to C#,


The suggestion that D should look to C#, cause MSFT have done the 
research, and therefore would know best about a language design 
feature, as a flawed argument, and deserves to be criticised.


MSFT Corporate stratedy influences the design of C#, as much, if 
not more, than language design.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:
When I joined the forum a little while back, I dared to 
suggest that D should be able to compile a 64bit binary on 
Windows, without having to relying on gigabytes of 
proprietaty, closed source, bloat from MSFT.


I stand by that comment, despite the harrassment from the many 
MSFT fanboys on these forums.


Acting as victim, you've done more harassing than anyone. How 
ironic you label people "MSFT fanboy" in the same sentence you 
cry harassment.


And again, I'd like to point out to everyone, that the attack on 
me, in this thread, started becasue I dared to suggest you should 
be able to compile a 64bit D executable, on Windows, without have 
to download GB's of propriatey, closed-source, bloatware.


In another discussion, the attack on me started because i dared 
to poke fun at the design of Windows 10.


That really seemed to pee of the MSFT fanboys on these 
forums...who then thought it was appropriate to start attacking 
me personally.


I don't mind dishing it out back to them...if they persist.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 20:35:40 UTC, Jerry wrote:


Taking away the start button wasn't that big of a deal.


Thanks...another qoute to add to:

'The famous quotes of Jerry the MSFT fanboy'.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-11 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 22:54:40 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 22:16:55 UTC, Jerry wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:19:06 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:15:26 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Not much of a technie nerd if it "just finished" and you've 
already exhausted your knowledge and have given up :). Just 
sayin'.


Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google 
it...


Yes, that accurately describes exhausting your knowledge.

Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's 
when i gave up.


Indeed, you could contact Microsoft for support and know you 
are talking to professional and not some rabid fanatic that 
will split hairs over the differences between linux and 
freebsd.


MSFT fanboy...at it again...


I use all forms of software, as such I don't go around saying 
Linux and FreeBSD should do things the way Windows is doing 
things. Or that support for them should be dropped by DMD, like a 
certain someone is doing. If you don't like Windows don't use it, 
it's that simple.



On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 00:38:40 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 22:16:55 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Indeed, you could contact Microsoft for support and know you 
are talking to professional and not some rabid fanatic that 
will split hairs over the differences between linux and 
freebsd.


Well.. if MSFT stop making stupid design decisions, they could 
invest their money in more innovation, instead of investing it 
into supporting and correcting their stupid design decisions.


Since Windows XP, what have they done:

- they release Vista (people lost their jobs over that, and 
MSFT had to go back to drawing board and actually consider what 
their customers want for a change).


- have you ever compared opening Event Viewer on windows xp, to 
opening it on every windows version since xp...it just gets 
bigger and slower to open.


- then they release Windows 7, with its fancy aero interface 
(which i really liked).


- then they took it away.

- then they added all this so called 'intelligence' into the 
o/s, that just bloated it and made it slower.


- then they took the start button away

- then they thought tiles are a better way to find your 
programs.


- then they though preventing users from customising their 
system, is something that should be done.


- then they thought the boring, plain metro interface - is 
innovative.


- then they thought preventing users from stopping the 
automatic installation of updates was a good idea


- then thought treating the desktop like it's a mobile tablet, 
is a good idea.


- then they thought they'd make it so hard for anyone to find 
anything, that users would have to revert to using their new 
little wiget that tracks everything the user does and sends it 
off to MFST for big data analysis.


..oh man... i could just go on and on.

The only innovation in software in the last decade or more, has 
come from open source projects.


So anyone that suggest we look  to MSFT for design decisions, 
better think again.


Taking away the start button wasn't that big of a deal. I used 
Windows 8, the only people affected by it are those who are 
borderline computer illiterate. The same thing with any kind of 
change, if people had their way we would still be in the stone 
age cause they were more comfortable with using stones than 
having to learn to use something new.


Whether to use Visual Studio or not isn't a "design decision". 
It's not relatable in the slightest bit. It's a tool that 
generates a binary file, you aren't going to find a better one on 
Windows that's as stable and has as good support, and the 
toolchain down the line that has equally good support (such as 
debuggers).


When I joined the forum a little while back, I dared to suggest 
that D should be able to compile a 64bit binary on Windows, 
without having to relying on gigabytes of proprietaty, closed 
source, bloat from MSFT.


I stand by that comment, despite the harrassment from the many 
MSFT fanboys on these forums.


Acting as victim, you've done more harassing than anyone. How 
ironic you label people "MSFT fanboy" in the same sentence you 
cry harassment.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread codephantom via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 22:16:55 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Indeed, you could contact Microsoft for support and know you 
are talking to professional and not some rabid fanatic that 
will split hairs over the differences between linux and freebsd.


Well.. if MSFT stop making stupid design decisions, they could 
invest their money in more innovation, instead of investing it 
into supporting and correcting their stupid design decisions.


Since Windows XP, what have they done:

- they release Vista (people lost their jobs over that, and MSFT 
had to go back to drawing board and actually consider what their 
customers want for a change).


- have you ever compared opening Event Viewer on windows xp, to 
opening it on every windows version since xp...it just gets 
bigger and slower to open.


- then they release Windows 7, with its fancy aero interface 
(which i really liked).


- then they took it away.

- then they added all this so called 'intelligence' into the o/s, 
that just bloated it and made it slower.


- then they took the start button away

- then they thought tiles are a better way to find your programs.

- then they though preventing users from customising their 
system, is something that should be done.


- then they thought the boring, plain metro interface - is 
innovative.


- then they thought preventing users from stopping the automatic 
installation of updates was a good idea


- then thought treating the desktop like it's a mobile tablet, is 
a good idea.


- then they thought they'd make it so hard for anyone to find 
anything, that users would have to revert to using their new 
little wiget that tracks everything the user does and sends it 
off to MFST for big data analysis.


..oh man... i could just go on and on.

The only innovation in software in the last decade or more, has 
come from open source projects.


So anyone that suggest we look  to MSFT for design decisions, 
better think again.


When I joined the forum a little while back, I dared to suggest 
that D should be able to compile a 64bit binary on Windows, 
without having to relying on gigabytes of proprietaty, closed 
source, bloat from MSFT.


I stand by that comment, despite the harrassment from the many 
MSFT fanboys on these forums.


I've also noticed, that since I made that comment, there's been 
an increase in attempts to do just that. Which is great.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread codephantom via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 22:16:55 UTC, Jerry wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:19:06 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:15:26 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Not much of a technie nerd if it "just finished" and you've 
already exhausted your knowledge and have given up :). Just 
sayin'.


Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google 
it...


Yes, that accurately describes exhausting your knowledge.

Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's when 
i gave up.


Indeed, you could contact Microsoft for support and know you 
are talking to professional and not some rabid fanatic that 
will split hairs over the differences between linux and freebsd.


MSFT fanboy...at it again...

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:19:06 UTC, codephantom wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:15:26 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Not much of a technie nerd if it "just finished" and you've 
already exhausted your knowledge and have given up :). Just 
sayin'.


Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google 
it...


Yes, that accurately describes exhausting your knowledge.

Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's when 
i gave up.


Indeed, you could contact Microsoft for support and know you are 
talking to professional and not some rabid fanatic that will 
split hairs over the differences between linux and freebsd.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:55:24 UTC, Tony wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:28:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Your logic is extremely confused.  Let me spell it out for 
you: the Mac is all but dead, particularly when compared to 
the mobile computing tidal wave, since they sell 10 iPhones + 
iPads for every Mac, according to the sales link I gave you 
before.  They have cut investment in that legacy Mac product, 
but they would like to keep selling a lower-quality product at 
high prices to the few chumps that still maintain the old Mac 
aura in their heads.


You have little company in thinking the Mac line is a 
"low-quality product". The computer magazine writers gush about 
the Macbooks.


lol, your own paste of what I wrote says "lower-quality product" 
above, yet you do not get it right in your quote below and go off 
on your own error.  While you make a few decent points elsewhere, 
your post is mostly filled with such mistakes, so I'm not going 
to sit here and argue with stuff you made up or explain basic 
business concepts to you, like market segmentation or legacy 
support.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

Oh wait, I forgot. The have a new 8-core model that is expected 
to sell for $5000… Right… So that would bring the 18-core model 
at… $15000?


At what pricing-point is it reasonable to call Apple customers 
for suckers? :-)

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:55:24 UTC, Tony wrote:
Very few companies are not "all about making money". That is 
why Americans were laid off by the millions and replaced by 
workers in countries with much cheaper labor rates. Bad for the 
workers, good for "making money". Apple isn't unique in making 
all it's products outside the USA.


I understand what you mean, but I don't think it is a scientific 
fact that companies are all about making money. They are run by 
humans with a set of beliefs and desires which they operate 
under… Anyway, even companies that are all about making money 
need to think long term, meaning to take care of their long term 
reputation. Microsoft was not all about making money in the 90s, 
but they were all about growing and retaining market share using 
bad business practices and that cost them their reputation among 
IT professionals. IBM also failed in the PC market by trying to 
profit on their brand. Apple might face a similar destiny, but 
maybe there are too many non-techies in their camp for that 
effect to kick in. Hard to tell.


Companies like Amazon are more about growth than making money… 
Some banks are more about being big than making money long term… 
Too big to fail and the government will save your ass. Etc.


Family owned business often have their own set of ethics related 
to the company history and ethics. Same with gründer-owned 
businesses. I'm pretty sure Steve Jobs had a clear vision for 
what kind of company Apple should be and what kind of products 
they should make. I am not sure if the current Apple management 
has such clear visions…


I don't see where it makes sense to call people who buy Mac 
products suckers (they seem especially popular with software 
developers) who pay extra for what you call "low-quality 
equipment" without saying the same thing about the people who 
buy iPhones.


I don't know. I use a mac daily, but there is not a single 
product in their line today that is anywhere near good value 
compared by what you get by building your own Linux/Windows box 
or buy a quality non-Apple product from Samsung or Asus…


Apple's best desktop offer is a modest 2-core i5 at $1000 (with 
no screen, keyboard or mouse) Want a 2-core i7 instead? Add $350… 
You have to be a sucker to do that… Sorry. 2-core i7? WTF? Why is 
Intel even producing those?


Ok, so Apple want developers to buy Mac Pro instead… Let's see, 
here in Norway the entry level price for Mac Pro is… $4200, for a 
6-core CPU. Uhm, for that price you could build a 18 core rig…


Yes, one have to either be a non-tech sucker or locked into the 
Mac eco system to buy at those rates.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:28:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
It would either be you and Jobs, or just you, letting them 
rebel. I would keep the line.


That's funny, as I was responding to your statement above, 
"So, let them rebel." :D


"Let them rebel" was with regard to your point of view. As 
demonstrated by the sentence I put after it: "You said that 
they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk 
it." You said that Apple would be happy to see it go away. 
Then you added that they were "milking" the line while they 
could. Satisfying rebelling users doesn't jive with either 
position. They rebel and you want to get rid of it - and you 
get rid of it. They rebel wanting changes, and you only want 
to keep milk it while you can - then you get rid of it, 
because you can't milk what you have.


Your logic is extremely confused.  Let me spell it out for you: 
the Mac is all but dead, particularly when compared to the 
mobile computing tidal wave, since they sell 10 iPhones + iPads 
for every Mac, according to the sales link I gave you before.  
They have cut investment in that legacy Mac product, but they 
would like to keep selling a lower-quality product at high 
prices to the few chumps that still maintain the old Mac aura 
in their heads.


You have little company in thinking the Mac line is a 
"low-quality product". The computer magazine writers gush about 
the Macbooks.


As far as "all but dead", in the most recent quarter, that line 
did have declining sales from the previous year, but it was "5.6 
billion in revenue in Q3 — over 12% of Apple’s total for the 
quarter".



So that is what they do, milk the suckers still paying high 
prices for a rarely refreshed product with a lot more bugs.  I 
don't know what's hard to understand about this for you.  When 
the Mac userbase rebels, they try to calm them down and say 
they're coming out with a new Mac Pro _next year_, five years 
since the last one!


Your logic seems extremely confused. If they aren't changing the 
product it won't have a "lot more bugs". With no changes you get 
less bugs over time.




Apple is a business.  As long as the Mac faithful are still 
willing to pay a lot of money for lower-quality products, they 
will gladly take their money, even though it's now just a 
sideline for their real business, the iPhone.  Of course, 
they'd rather just focus on the iPhone, but if they can take a 
lot of devs off macOS and still milk those suckers, why 
wouldn't they?


What does "take a lot of devs off macOS" refer to?



Apple is all about making money, which is why they're the 
largest company in the world, with some forecasting that they 
will soon be the first company to have a market cap of... one 
trillion dollars!!! insertDoctorEvilPinkie();




Very few companies are not "all about making money". That is why 
Americans were laid off by the millions and replaced by workers 
in countries with much cheaper labor rates. Bad for the workers, 
good for "making money". Apple isn't unique in making all it's 
products outside the USA.


I don't see where it makes sense to call people who buy Mac 
products suckers (they seem especially popular with software 
developers) who pay extra for what you call "low-quality 
equipment" without saying the same thing about the people who buy 
iPhones. Your mantra is "people need so much less than they are 
buying". Well, that applies as much to iPhone users as it does 
Mac users. People don't need $1,000 phones and they don't need to 
upgrade a phone every two years.


The large Apple profit comes from offering quality products 
and then pricing them at the highest gross profit margin in 
the industry. In order to get people to pay a premium for 
their products it helps to have a mystique or following, and 
the macOS line helps to maintain their mystique and it is 
small potatoes next to their phone business.


I've already said repeatedly that they're not going to drop 
the Mac line anytime soon, so I don't know why you want to 
write a paragraph justifying keeping it.


My post was in response to this statement of yours "Simple, 
they see the writing on the wall, ie much smaller sales than 
mobile, SO THEY WANT THE LEGACY PRODUCT TO GO AWAY, which 
means they can focus on the much bigger mobile market." That 
seems to be a contradiction to "they're not going to drop the 
Mac line anytime soon".


No contradiction: they want the Mac to go away, but are happy 
to keep supplementing their bottom line while pulling engineers 
off of it, just like the iPod Touch.


If somebody wants something to go away and they can make it go 
away, they make it go away. It is most certainly a contradiction 
to say "they want it to go away" and they "want it to not go away 
so they can milk it".


You seem to be confused by the fact that a business sometimes 
has contradictory goals- should we focus exclusively on the 
iPhone and make more money there or keep the Mac limping along 
too?- and tries to

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:10:30 UTC, Tony wrote:

I don't see any relationship between that iOS picture in the 
Wiki article and Metro. The idea is RESIZABLE, LIVE tiles. Not 
effects to make them look 3D or not.


"live tile" meaning the underlying app can dynamically put 
readable information in the tile. Such as the most recent sender 
of email and subject, the most recent headline, the item at the 
top of your todo list, a calendar reminder, current weather 
information.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 10:42:37 UTC, Tony wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Why did they fund development of a new iMac Pro which is 
coming this December as well as the new MacBook Pros that 
came out this June? That's a contradiction of "milk it 
like an iPod".


Because their userbase was rebelling?  I take it you're 
not that familiar with Mac users, but they were genuinely 
scared that Apple was leaving them behind, since they 
weren't refreshing Mac and Macbooks much anymore and all 
Apple's focus is on iOS:


So, let them rebel. You said that they would like to see it 
go away, and/or they want to milk it. If you have to spend 
money on development to keep selling it, then you can't 
"milk it".


You and I and Jobs may've let them rebel, but Apple is a 
public corporation.  They can't just let easy money go, 
their shareholders may not like it. Perhaps you're not too 
familiar with legacy calculations, but they're probably 
still making good money off Macs, but it just distracts and 
keeps good Apple devs off the real cash cow, iPhone.  Even 
if the Mac financials aren't _that_ great anymore, you don't 
necessarily want to piss off your oldest and most loyal 
customers, who may stop buying iPhones and iPads too.


It would either be you and Jobs, or just you, letting them 
rebel. I would keep the line.


That's funny, as I was responding to your statement above, 
"So, let them rebel." :D


"Let them rebel" was with regard to your point of view. As 
demonstrated by the sentence I put after it: "You said that 
they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk 
it." You said that Apple would be happy to see it go away. Then 
you added that they were "milking" the line while they could. 
Satisfying rebelling users doesn't jive with either position. 
They rebel and you want to get rid of it - and you get rid of 
it. They rebel wanting changes, and you only want to keep milk 
it while you can - then you get rid of it, because you can't 
milk what you have.


Your logic is extremely confused.  Let me spell it out for you: 
the Mac is all but dead, particularly when compared to the mobile 
computing tidal wave, since they sell 10 iPhones + iPads for 
every Mac, according to the sales link I gave you before.  They 
have cut investment in that legacy Mac product, but they would 
like to keep selling a lower-quality product at high prices to 
the few chumps that still maintain the old Mac aura in their 
heads.


So that is what they do, milk the suckers still paying high 
prices for a rarely refreshed product with a lot more bugs.  I 
don't know what's hard to understand about this for you.  When 
the Mac userbase rebels, they try to calm them down and say 
they're coming out with a new Mac Pro _next year_, five years 
since the last one!


Apple is a business.  As long as the Mac faithful are still 
willing to pay a lot of money for lower-quality products, they 
will gladly take their money, even though it's now just a 
sideline for their real business, the iPhone.  Of course, they'd 
rather just focus on the iPhone, but if they can take a lot of 
devs off macOS and still milk those suckers, why wouldn't they?


Apple is all about making money, which is why they're the largest 
company in the world, with some forecasting that they will soon 
be the first company to have a market cap of... one trillion 
dollars!!! insertDoctorEvilPinkie();


The large Apple profit comes from offering quality products 
and then pricing them at the highest gross profit margin in 
the industry. In order to get people to pay a premium for 
their products it helps to have a mystique or following, and 
the macOS line helps to maintain their mystique and it is 
small potatoes next to their phone business.


I've already said repeatedly that they're not going to drop 
the Mac line anytime soon, so I don't know why you want to 
write a paragraph justifying keeping it.


My post was in response to this statement of yours "Simple, 
they see the writing on the wall, ie much smaller sales than 
mobile, SO THEY WANT THE LEGACY PRODUCT TO GO AWAY, which means 
they can focus on the much bigger mobile market." That seems to 
be a contradiction to "they're not going to drop the Mac line 
anytime soon".


No contradiction: they want the Mac to go away, but are happy to 
keep supplementing their bottom line while pulling engineers off 
of it, just like the iPod Touch.


You seem to be confused by the fact that a business sometimes has 
contradictory goals- should we focus exclusively on the iPhone 
and make more money there or keep the Mac limping along too?- and 
tries to balance the two as long as it makes sense.


As for mystique, it is laughable that you think this outdated 
Mac line that practically nobody buys compared to the iPhone 
provides any. :) More likely, they will keep milking the 
Mac-buying chumps till they stop, or when they can just tell 
them to buy an iPhone with a

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:




I see, so your claim is that MS, Nokia, HP, Sony, all much 
larger companies than Apple or Google at the time, could not 
have countered them even on a lucky day.  I wonder why this is, 
as they certainly had more money, you don't believe they're 
that bright? :)


Google bought Android from a startup of sharp programmers. There 
are only so many mobile operating systems and operating systems 
are not easy to develop. Jobs got back into Apple because they 
had failed in an attempt to replace OS 9 and Jobs had a talented 
software team and an OS from his failing Next company. Nokia had 
a big internal effort to replace Symbian (which had multi-tasking 
from the beginning, unlike iOS) due to some flaw that it could 
only handle 640 x 360 screens (bigger than the first couple 
iPhone generations). But one effort failed and another, based on 
Linux came too late to survive being cut at the same time the new 
CEO from Microsoft announced that Symbian would be discontinued 
and replaced by Windows Mobile.





On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 07:04:24 UTC, Tony wrote:

On Monday, 6 November 2017 at 08:33:16 UTC, Joakim wrote:



The vast majority of users would be covered by 5-10 GBs of 
available storage, which is why the lowest tier of even the 
luxury iPhone was 16 GBs until last year.  Every time I talk 
to normal people, ie non-techies unlike us, and ask them how 
much storage they have in their device, whether smartphone, 
tablet, or laptop, they have no idea.  If I look in the 
device, I inevitably find they're only using something like 
3-5 GBs max, out of the 20-100+ GBs they have available.


You are making an assumption that people want as much storage 
for a combo phone/PC as they do for only a phone. You need to 
also check how much storage they are using on their PCs.


You need to read what I actually wrote, I was talking about 
laptops too.  I don't go to people's homes and check their 
desktops, but their laptops fall under the same low-storage 
umbrella, and laptops are 80% of PCs sold these days.


OK, I see you did mention laptops. It isn't my case and I find it 
hard to believe that people are being sold ever larger disk 
drives when they can survive with a 32GB flash rom.


I never made any previous claim about what IDEs are being 
used. The only time I previously mentioned an IDE was with 
regard to RemObjects and Embarcadero offering 
cross-compilation to Android/iOS with their products.


"There is a case to be made for supporting  Android/iOS 
cross-compilation. But it doesn't have to come at the 
expense of Windows 64-bit integration. Not sure they even 
involve the same skillsets. Embarcadero and Remobjects both 
now support Android/iOS development from their Windows (and 
macOS in the case of Remobjects) IDEs."


That was to highlight that those two compiler companies have 
seen fit to also cross-compile to mobile - they saw an 
importance to mobile development. It wasn't about what IDEs 
are best for mobile or even what IDEs are being used for 
mobile.


If you look back to the first mention of IDES, it was your 
statement, "Good luck selling game developers on using D to 
develop for Android, when you can't supply those same game 
developers a top-notch development environment for the 
premier platform for performance critical games - Windows 
64-bit."


That at least implies that they're using the same IDE to 
target both mobile and PC gaming, which is what I was 
disputing.  If you agree that they use completely different 
toolchains, then it is irrelevant whether D supports 
Windows-focused IDEs, as it doesn't affect mobile-focused 
devs.


My statements quoted didn't mention IDEs and they didn't imply 
IDEs. What was implied was the initial line in the first post 
"* better dll support for Windows". My assumption is that game 
developers (or just developers) work on multiple OSes. If you 
want them to use a language - like D - they should find it 
compelling to use on all their platforms.


Your statement was made in direct response to my question, "why 
spend time getting D great Windows IDE support if you don't 
think Windows has much of a future?"


What does IDE support refer to? You didn't say "get good Windows 
IDEs". In any event, I was talking about DLLs and related Windows 
issues that you would encounter using Vim and D.


I've already said I don't think there's much overlap between 
mobile and PC games, the markets are fairly disjoint.  The top 
mobile games are never released for PC and vice versa.


I never said the games have overlap. I said the developers have 
overlap.



As for dll support, that was not mentioned at all in the OT 
thread to which you were responding, and you never called it 
out.


Never called what out? You were saying that Windows was going 
down by 99% in some unstated timeframe and I challenged that 
notion. The first and second posts in this thread mention DLL 
support and

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-10 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d


On 10/11/2017 10:42 AM, Tony wrote:
If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a $150 
companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's unlikely they 
will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android phone with plenty of 
RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.


You can do pretty decently for $60-80usd if you know where to look with 
Android. But the reality is for developers, desktops are going no where. 
If anything, we'll see more server workstations becoming standard for 
developers. I know, I have one. Well worth it if you do anything decent.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Why did they fund development of a new iMac Pro which is 
coming this December as well as the new MacBook Pros that 
came out this June? That's a contradiction of "milk it 
like an iPod".


Because their userbase was rebelling?  I take it you're not 
that familiar with Mac users, but they were genuinely 
scared that Apple was leaving them behind, since they 
weren't refreshing Mac and Macbooks much anymore and all 
Apple's focus is on iOS:


So, let them rebel. You said that they would like to see it 
go away, and/or they want to milk it. If you have to spend 
money on development to keep selling it, then you can't 
"milk it".


You and I and Jobs may've let them rebel, but Apple is a 
public corporation.  They can't just let easy money go, their 
shareholders may not like it. Perhaps you're not too familiar 
with legacy calculations, but they're probably still making 
good money off Macs, but it just distracts and keeps good 
Apple devs off the real cash cow, iPhone.  Even if the Mac 
financials aren't _that_ great anymore, you don't necessarily 
want to piss off your oldest and most loyal customers, who 
may stop buying iPhones and iPads too.


It would either be you and Jobs, or just you, letting them 
rebel. I would keep the line.


That's funny, as I was responding to your statement above, "So, 
let them rebel." :D


"Let them rebel" was with regard to your point of view. As 
demonstrated by the sentence I put after it: "You said that they 
would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk it." You 
said that Apple would be happy to see it go away. Then you added 
that they were "milking" the line while they could. Satisfying 
rebelling users doesn't jive with either position. They rebel and 
you want to get rid of it - and you get rid of it. They rebel 
wanting changes, and you only want to keep milk it while you can 
- then you get rid of it, because you can't milk what you have.




The large Apple profit comes from offering quality products 
and then pricing them at the highest gross profit margin in 
the industry. In order to get people to pay a premium for 
their products it helps to have a mystique or following, and 
the macOS line helps to maintain their mystique and it is 
small potatoes next to their phone business.


I've already said repeatedly that they're not going to drop the 
Mac line anytime soon, so I don't know why you want to write a 
paragraph justifying keeping it.


My post was in response to this statement of yours "Simple, they 
see the writing on the wall, ie much smaller sales than mobile, 
SO THEY WANT THE LEGACY PRODUCT TO GO AWAY, which means they can 
focus on the much bigger mobile market." That seems to be a 
contradiction to "they're not going to drop the Mac line anytime 
soon".


As for mystique, it is laughable that you think this outdated 
Mac line that practically nobody buys compared to the iPhone 
provides any. :) More likely, they will keep milking the 
Mac-buying chumps till they stop, or when they can just tell 
them to buy an iPhone with a multi-window option instead.


"Nobody buys" Rolls Royces, but they have a lot of mystique. 
Mystique isn't measured by sales volume.


If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a 
$150 companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's 
unlikely they will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android 
phone with plenty of RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

Apple had a big benefit on mobile with their iTunes store that 
had already been established on Desktop and the very popular 
iPod. They also had rich USA buyers who bought more apps than 
users of the other platforms which encouraged developers to 
target iOS. And they had the Apple/Jobs mystique.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:19:06 UTC, codephantom wrote:


Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google 
it...


Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's when 
i gave up.


Bill Gates wasn't the richest man in the world for so long 
without reason. ;)

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:42:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
As I said earlier, the mobile OS story is not over yet, there 
are more changes to come.


Yeah...like more factories making more dongles.

You want a dongle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSC_UG5_kU

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:15:26 UTC, Jerry wrote:
Not much of a technie nerd if it "just finished" and you've 
already exhausted your knowledge and have given up :). Just 
sayin'.


Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google it...

Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's when i 
gave up.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d


On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:04:05 UTC, codephantom wrote:
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 00:23:03 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
I don't disagree that there are differences between FreeBSD 
and Linux, but my point is that for most folks, the 
differences are small enough that it's not all that different 
from trying to convince someone to use one Linux distro or 
another - especially if you're trying to convince a Windows 
user, since Windows is so drastically different from both.


My Windows 10 just finished downloading.

I installed it, and even a technie nerd like me couldn't work 
it out.


I think Windows 10 is enough to convince users to switch ... to 
anything ;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHG6fXEba0A


Not much of a technie nerd if it "just finished" and you've 
already exhausted your knowledge and have given up :). Just 
sayin'.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 00:23:03 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
I don't disagree that there are differences between FreeBSD and 
Linux, but my point is that for most folks, the differences are 
small enough that it's not all that different from trying to 
convince someone to use one Linux distro or another - 
especially if you're trying to convince a Windows user, since 
Windows is so drastically different from both.


My Windows 10 just finished downloading.

I installed it, and even a technie nerd like me couldn't work it 
out.


I think Windows 10 is enough to convince users to switch ... to 
anything ;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHG6fXEba0A

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 00:23:03 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
Plenty of us do get picky about details, which would lead us to 
one or the other, depending on our preferences, but there are 
way more similarities than differences - to the point that to 
many folks, the differences seem pretty superficial.


- Jonathan M Davis


No, the diffs really are considerable. FreeBSD is not Linux.

For example, FreeBSD doesn't have systemd ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpDdGOKZ3dg

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d

On Thursday, November 09, 2017 23:42:37 codephantom via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:47:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
>
> wrote:
> > Oh, I'm all for using FreeBSD, but most of the arguments for
> > using FreeBSD over Windows apply to Linux. And if you can't get
> > someone to switch from Windows to Linux, you're not going to
> > get them to switch to FreeBSD. FreeBSD and Linux are definitely
> > different, but the differences are small when compared with
> > Windows.
>
> Except, that Linux/GNU is basically a clone of a clone.
>
> BSD is...just BSD..from which all the clones are made ;-)
>
> More importantly, is the GPL vs BSD licence thing.
>
> If you examine GPL code, and think..mmm..that looks good, I might
> use it in my appthen you're in trouble is you distribute that
> app without also distributing your code.
>
> BSD gives you 'genuine freedom' to use the code as you see fit -
> just don't try claiming that you wrote it, or you'll be in
> trouble.
>
> There is also the 'distribution' thing...FreeBSD is a single,
> managed, complete distrbution. Linux is just a kernel. It's
> combined with various GNU stuff to make up a distribution, and
> most distrubtions make their own little changes here and there,
> and you never really know what's going on. With FreeBSD there is
> only the FreeBSD distribution.
>
> So there maybe similiarities between FreeBSD and Linux/GNU, but
> their differences are really significant and warrant attention.
>
> Oddly enough, whatever draws me to FreeBSD, also draws me to D -
> I'm still not sure what it is...but the word 'freedom' keeps
> coming to mind. I cannot say that for Linux as much. I cannot say
> that for golang. They offer freedom, and at the same time setup
> out to restrict it.

I don't disagree that there are differences between FreeBSD and Linux, but
my point is that for most folks, the differences are small enough that it's
not all that different from trying to convince someone to use one Linux
distro or another - especially if you're trying to convince a Windows user,
since Windows is so drastically different from both. In most cases, whether
you run FreeBSD or Linux really comes down to preference. For the most part,
they both serve people's needs very well and on the surface aren't very
different.

I definitely prefer the BSD license to the GPL as well as how the BSDs
typically go about designing things, but if you don't care about the
licensing situation, whether it even matters to you which you're using
starts getting down to some pretty specific stuff that would seem fairly
esoteric to a lot of folks (especially non-geeks). It's even the case that
most software that runs on one runs on the other - including the desktop
environments - so while the differences definitely matter, they tend to be
pretty small from the end user's point of view. Plenty of us do get picky
about details, which would lead us to one or the other, depending on our
preferences, but there are way more similarities than differences - to the
point that to many folks, the differences seem pretty superficial.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:47:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:


Oh, I'm all for using FreeBSD, but most of the arguments for 
using FreeBSD over Windows apply to Linux. And if you can't get 
someone to switch from Windows to Linux, you're not going to 
get them to switch to FreeBSD. FreeBSD and Linux are definitely 
different, but the differences are small when compared with 
Windows.


Except, that Linux/GNU is basically a clone of a clone.

BSD is...just BSD..from which all the clones are made ;-)

More importantly, is the GPL vs BSD licence thing.

If you examine GPL code, and think..mmm..that looks good, I might 
use it in my appthen you're in trouble is you distribute that 
app without also distributing your code.


BSD gives you 'genuine freedom' to use the code as you see fit - 
just don't try claiming that you wrote it, or you'll be in 
trouble.


There is also the 'distribution' thing...FreeBSD is a single, 
managed, complete distrbution. Linux is just a kernel. It's 
combined with various GNU stuff to make up a distribution, and 
most distrubtions make their own little changes here and there, 
and you never really know what's going on. With FreeBSD there is 
only the FreeBSD distribution.


So there maybe similiarities between FreeBSD and Linux/GNU, but 
their differences are really significant and warrant attention.


Oddly enough, whatever draws me to FreeBSD, also draws me to D - 
I'm still not sure what it is...but the word 'freedom' keeps 
coming to mind. I cannot say that for Linux as much. I cannot say 
that for golang. They offer freedom, and at the same time setup 
out to restrict it.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:42:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Do you blame them, given such anti-competitive measures long 
undertaken by MS and Apple?


Big businesses do what they can get away with. Once upon a time 
governments cared about anti-trust (E.g. AT and IBM), but 
nowadays it seems like they don't care much about enabling 
competition where smaller players get a shot. Governments seem to 
let the big multi-national corporations do what they want. It's 
not like MS was punished much for their behaviour…


(EU has mounted a little bit of resistance, but only thanks to 
individuals.)


There is some truth to this, but if you cannot compete with a 
free product- cough, cough, Windows Mobile- I don't know what 
to tell you.


I actually think the Microsoft phones looked quite appealing, but 
I didn't get the sense that Microsoft would back it up over time. 
Perception is king. Google had the same problem with Dart. They 
kept developing Dart, but after they announced that it didn't get 
into Chrome, many started to wonder if that was the beginning of 
the end.


 In other words, google cannot afford to spend a fraction of 
the money on Android that Apple spends on iOS, because google 
makes so little money off of Android by comparison, so there 
are disadvantages to their free model too.


As far as I can tell from the iOS APIs the internals doesn't seem 
to change all that much anymore. I'm sure they do a lot on 
hardware, drivers and tooling.


As I said earlier, the mobile OS story is not over yet, there 
are more changes to come.


Yes, that probably is true. The teenager/young adults segment can 
shift things real fast if someone push out a perfect mobile 
gaming-device.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Jerry via Digitalmars-d

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:42:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
There is some truth to this, but if you cannot compete with a
free product- cough, cough, Windows Mobile- I don't know what
to tell you. In other words, google cannot afford to spend a
fraction of the money on Android that Apple spends on iOS,
because google makes so little money off of Android by
comparison, so there are disadvantages to their free model too.
It is one of the reasons why they have now plunged into the
high-end smartphone market with their recent Pixel line.

I think the lack of a viable business model for Android
vendors, other than Samsung, is a huge problem for the
platform, as Apple hoovers up two-thirds of the profit with
only a tenth of the phones sold:

https://www.counterpointresearch.com/80-of-global-handset-profits-comes-from-premium-segment/

As I said earlier, the mobile OS story is not over yet, there
are more changes to come.

People that buy Android I find tend to keep their phones for
longer. People with Apple phones keep buying new ones. Part of
that is how many phone Apple claims are on the latest version. So
developers only target the latest one, then their apps don't run
on old phone and it encourages people to "upgrade". Android apps
tend to support more versions as well, it's a more diverse OS.
I've even seen websites that just straight up drop support for
old versions of Safari. Can't get the latest version of Safari
cause you can't update your phone. Then you go to firefox just to
find out you can't install it cause it's no longer support for
that iOS version. Can't even download an old version of firefox
that did support it cause it's Apple's store and they don't
support that.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:22:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:
I also think we should add to this discussion that Google was 
hellbent on going forward with Android even when it was clearly 
inferior. Apple tried to squish out Google's services from 
their iOS products for a while. And that is exactly what Google 
tries to prevent by funding things like Chrome and Android.


Do you blame them, given such anti-competitive measures long 
undertaken by MS and Apple?


So for Google Chrome and Android does not have to make sense in 
business terms, it is basically an anti-competitive tool to 
protect their own hegemony (relative monopoly) by retaining 
critical mass and making it difficult for competitors to build 
up a competing product over time (you need a source of income 
while your product is evolving from mediocre to great to do 
that).


There is some truth to this, but if you cannot compete with a 
free product- cough, cough, Windows Mobile- I don't know what to 
tell you.  In other words, google cannot afford to spend a 
fraction of the money on Android that Apple spends on iOS, 
because google makes so little money off of Android by 
comparison, so there are disadvantages to their free model too.  
It is one of the reasons why they have now plunged into the 
high-end smartphone market with their recent Pixel line.


I think the lack of a viable business model for Android vendors, 
other than Samsung, is a huge problem for the platform, as Apple 
hoovers up two-thirds of the profit with only a tenth of the 
phones sold:


https://www.counterpointresearch.com/80-of-global-handset-profits-comes-from-premium-segment/

As I said earlier, the mobile OS story is not over yet, there are 
more changes to come.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:15:47 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 00:09:32 UTC, Joakim wrote:
smaller search company, did with Android, leaving aside Apple 
because of your silly claims that their existing software gave 
them a headstart, which is why those former computing giants 
are all either dead or fading fast.


It is hardly a silly claim:

NextStep (1989) ==> OS-X (2001) ==> iOS (2007)

That is 18 years of evolution and experience, and it also meant 
that they had the development tooling ready + experienced 
developers for their platform (macOS programmers). It also 
mattered a lot that Apple already had the manufacturing 
experience with prior attempts and also the streamlining of the 
iPod-line as well as the infrastructure for distribution and 
following up customers (again from the iPod line).


So, for Apple it was a relatively modest step to go from

 iPod + Mac frameworks + standard 3rd party chips + existing 
tooling + iTunes


 =>

iPhone

I think you are forgetting that hardly anyone wanted to develop 
apps for Android in the first few years. Android was pariah, 
and everybody did iOS apps first, then if it was a big success 
then maybe they would try to port it over to Android (but 
usually not).


I agree that Apple had an advantage in getting into the 
smartphone market, but MS, RIM, Nokia, etc. had much larger 
advantages in this regard.  And you continue to ignore that 
Android and google started their mobile OS from scratch and now 
ship on the most smartphones.  Of course, they just grabbed 
existing tech like the linux kernel, Java, and various other OSS 
projects and put it all together with code of their own, but 
that's something any of the computing giants and many other 
upstarts like HTC or Asus could have done.


Yet, they didn't, which suggests a lack of vision or some other 
technical ability than "OS expertise."

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d

I also think we should add to this discussion that Google was 
hellbent on going forward with Android even when it was clearly 
inferior. Apple tried to squish out Google's services from their 
iOS products for a while. And that is exactly what Google tries 
to prevent by funding things like Chrome and Android.


So for Google Chrome and Android does not have to make sense in 
business terms, it is basically an anti-competitive tool to 
protect their own hegemony (relative monopoly) by retaining 
critical mass and making it difficult for competitors to build up 
a competing product over time (you need a source of income while 
your product is evolving from mediocre to great to do that).

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 00:09:32 UTC, Joakim wrote:
smaller search company, did with Android, leaving aside Apple 
because of your silly claims that their existing software gave 
them a headstart, which is why those former computing giants 
are all either dead or fading fast.


It is hardly a silly claim:

NextStep (1989) ==> OS-X (2001) ==> iOS (2007)

That is 18 years of evolution and experience, and it also meant 
that they had the development tooling ready + experienced 
developers for their platform (macOS programmers). It also 
mattered a lot that Apple already had the manufacturing 
experience with prior attempts and also the streamlining of the 
iPod-line as well as the infrastructure for distribution and 
following up customers (again from the iPod line).


So, for Apple it was a relatively modest step to go from

 iPod + Mac frameworks + standard 3rd party chips + existing 
tooling + iTunes


 =>

iPhone

I think you are forgetting that hardly anyone wanted to develop 
apps for Android in the first few years. Android was pariah, and 
everybody did iOS apps first, then if it was a big success then 
maybe they would try to port it over to Android (but usually not).

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Joakim via Digitalmars-d

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 12:27:49 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 00:09:32 UTC, Joakim wrote:

...
I think you greatly overestimate what was needed to compete in
this mobile market at that time. I'm not saying it was easy,
but the PC and mobile giants before iOS/Android clearly didn't
have the vision or ability to execute what google, a much
smaller search company, did with Android, leaving aside Apple
because of your silly claims that their existing software gave
them a headstart, which is why those former computing giants
are all either dead or fading fast.

Google bought the company responsible for Hiptop, which was
already developing Android, where the majority of employees
were former BeOS employees, many of which are still on the
Android team.

Not quite, the company responsible for the Hiptop was Danger,
which was acquired by MS in 2008:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_Inc.

Some key people left Danger to start Android before that, which
is what you're thinking of. I mentioned that 2005 google
acquisition of Android earlier in this thread. I'm not sure what
point you're trying to make though, as HP, Sony, MS, Nokia, etc.
had enough money to buy 50 such companies, ie google didn't have
any resource or "OS expertise" advantage over those computing
giants. They certainly had a better vision for mobile and
arguably other technical skills.

It's funny, everybody is now ridiculing the dismissive statements
made by those giants when Android launched a decade ago:

https://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/symbian-nokia-microsoft-and-apple-downplay-android-relevance/

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-09 Thread Paulo Pinto via Digitalmars-d


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 00:09:32 UTC, Joakim wrote:

...
I think you greatly overestimate what was needed to compete in 
this mobile market at that time.  I'm not saying it was easy, 
but the PC and mobile giants before iOS/Android clearly didn't 
have the vision or ability to execute what google, a much 
smaller search company, did with Android, leaving aside Apple 
because of your silly claims that their existing software gave 
them a headstart, which is why those former computing giants 
are all either dead or fading fast.


Google bought the company responsible for Hiptop, which was 
already developing Android, where the majority of employees were 
former BeOS employees, many of which are still on the Android 
team.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 02:34:35 UTC, codephantom wrote:
I'll try it out today too(I just have to wait till the 
Windows 10 iso finishes downloading...so maybe I should say... 
I'll try it out 'tomorrow'...


ohhh..wtf...it's still downloading??.gee...

I might go to sleep..and when I wake up it will be finished.

It'll be like those hours never even happened.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 02:23:33 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
I just got DMD set up using those instructions (though not sure 
all were needed, I followed them anyway). I am probably going 
to make good use of this, so thanks for highlighting it.


Thanks for testing it and letting us know.

I'll try it out today too(I just have to wait till the 
Windows 10 iso finishes downloading...so maybe I should say... 
I'll try it out 'tomorrow'...

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 18:06:25 UTC, jmh530 wrote:


Thanks. I'll make use of that. I'll be happy if I can get 
blas/lapack working.


I just got DMD set up using those instructions (though not sure 
all were needed, I followed them anyway). I am probably going to 
make good use of this, so thanks for highlighting it.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 22:28:32 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 21:36:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
I don't know why you go back to Apple, when you clearly cut 
out the part of the above excuses quote where I pointed out 
that _google had none of the advantages_ you think were 
necessary to win mobile, yet created the OS that now ships on 
the most mobile devices.


Android wasn't all that great in the beginning and most 
manufacturers didn't make much money off it. Samsung was more 
the exception than the rule, and no, not only Google is making 
Android happen. For a single company to go that route alone you 
better have a good starting point. Microsoft had it, obviously. 
Apple had it. Maybe the owners of BeOS could have done it, not 
sure, but there are few companies that actually could have 
produced a high quality OS + application frameworks + hardware 
in anything less than a decade. Apple could focus on hardware 
and drivers and a little bit of fickling with their existing 
OS-X frameworks. That's a major difference.


Google pretty much did it on their own in around five years, as 
all indications are that Android is mostly developed in-house.  
Yes, the Android hardware vendors add polish, some drivers, and 
their own skins, but most of the source comes from google.


belied by the fact that google had much less.  You talk about 
OS expertise, all while HP has long had their own OS's, HP-UX


That's only a generic Unix with X11 on top. HP had WebOS, but 
gave up on it!! I can only assume they realized it would be too 
time consuming and too expensive to be worthwhile.


The point is that HP had plenty of OS expertise.  As for WebOS, 
HP didn't buy it till 2010, when mobile sales were just passing 
PC sales and it was getting too late.  WebOS was not only a dumb 
idea, just like ChromeOS, it likely had major technical issues, 
judging from the reviews I read at the time.


Just take a look at how difficult it is to build something as 
simple as D or C++ standard library. Then multiply that by the 
challenges when create complete application frameworks. Nokia 
bought up QT (which isn't all that great) for a reason, and for 
_a lot_ of money!


And yet google, much smaller than MS or HP and without the OS 
expertise you say is needed, did all that mostly by themselves.


I think you underestimate what it takes to get it all to work 
together in a reasonably manner. Anyhow, with Android out there 
as a possible contender it basically wouldn't make a whole lot 
of sense to invest in rolling your own OS. I assume that is the 
reason HP let WebOS stagnate.


I think you greatly overestimate what was needed to compete in 
this mobile market at that time.  I'm not saying it was easy, but 
the PC and mobile giants before iOS/Android clearly didn't have 
the vision or ability to execute what google, a much smaller 
search company, did with Android, leaving aside Apple because of 
your silly claims that their existing software gave them a 
headstart, which is why those former computing giants are all 
either dead or fading fast.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 22:28:32 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
in anything less than a decade. Apple could focus on hardware 
and drivers and a little bit of fickling with their existing 
OS-X frameworks. That's a major difference.


I didn't mean «fickling», that was quasi-norwegian… I meant 
«tinkering».

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 21:36:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
I don't know why you go back to Apple, when you clearly cut out 
the part of the above excuses quote where I pointed out that 
_google had none of the advantages_ you think were necessary to 
win mobile, yet created the OS that now ships on the most 
mobile devices.


Android wasn't all that great in the beginning and most 
manufacturers didn't make much money off it. Samsung was more the 
exception than the rule, and no, not only Google is making 
Android happen. For a single company to go that route alone you 
better have a good starting point. Microsoft had it, obviously. 
Apple had it. Maybe the owners of BeOS could have done it, not 
sure, but there are few companies that actually could have 
produced a high quality OS + application frameworks + hardware in 
anything less than a decade. Apple could focus on hardware and 
drivers and a little bit of fickling with their existing OS-X 
frameworks. That's a major difference.


belied by the fact that google had much less.  You talk about 
OS expertise, all while HP has long had their own OS's, HP-UX


That's only a generic Unix with X11 on top. HP had WebOS, but 
gave up on it!! I can only assume they realized it would be too 
time consuming and too expensive to be worthwhile.


Just take a look at how difficult it is to build something as 
simple as D or C++ standard library. Then multiply that by the 
challenges when create complete application frameworks. Nokia 
bought up QT (which isn't all that great) for a reason, and for 
_a lot_ of money!


I think you underestimate what it takes to get it all to work 
together in a reasonably manner. Anyhow, with Android out there 
as a possible contender it basically wouldn't make a whole lot of 
sense to invest in rolling your own OS. I assume that is the 
reason HP let WebOS stagnate.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 21:02:26 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 17:51:45 UTC, Joakim wrote:
way to axing that line altogether. The notion that their iOS 
line, which now brings in the vast majority of their profits 
and revenue, is riskier is a joke.


That really depends on what you mean by risk. There is no 
general correlation between high profits and low risk.


I'm not saying mobile isn't risky.  It's a cutting-edge tech 
business, of course it's risky.  Just look at HTC, LG, and all 
the other mobile vendors doing badly.  However, I'd rather be in 
a booming risky business rather than a declining risky business, 
which is what the desktop market is and therefore riskier.


I don't know if you're trying to make me laugh with these 
excuses or what.


So you don't understand that the foundation that Apple had for 
building iOS takes time, not only resources. Money does not 
solve all problems, but you think otherwise. Ok. I strongly 
disagree.


I assume it is a goodhearted laughter you are enjoying…


I don't know why you go back to Apple, when you clearly cut out 
the part of the above excuses quote where I pointed out that 
_google had none of the advantages_ you think were necessary to 
win mobile, yet created the OS that now ships on the most mobile 
devices.


Of course it's not just a matter of money, but you were the one 
who mentioned how internal resources are needed, which is belied 
by the fact that google had much less.  You talk about OS 
expertise, all while HP has long had their own OS's, HP-UX and 
later Tru64, same with Sony and the various in-house OS's they've 
worked on.


You don't want to own up to the fact that google succeeded with a 
lot less resources and OS expertise than the companies you claim 
couldn't do it, which suggests those factors you think were so 
important likely weren't.  More likely, it is what I said: the 
incumbents like MS or Sony just didn't foresee mobile growing so 
large so fast, at least that was one of the main reasons.

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 17:51:45 UTC, Joakim wrote:
way to axing that line altogether. The notion that their iOS 
line, which now brings in the vast majority of their profits 
and revenue, is riskier is a joke.


That really depends on what you mean by risk. There is no general 
correlation between high profits and low risk.


I don't know if you're trying to make me laugh with these 
excuses or what.


So you don't understand that the foundation that Apple had for 
building iOS takes time, not only resources. Money does not solve 
all problems, but you think otherwise. Ok. I strongly disagree.


I assume it is a goodhearted laughter you are enjoying…

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 17:51:45 UTC, Joakim wrote:


The linux build of dmd has already been used on WSL to compile 
ldc without a problem:


https://wiki.dlang.org/Build_LDC_for_Android#Notes_for_Bash_on_Ubuntu_on_Windows



Thanks. I'll make use of that. I'll be happy if I can get 
blas/lapack working.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 14:36:11 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 12:35:19 UTC, codephantom
wrote:

btw. I wonder if anyone has got the linux version of DMD x64
to run on the Windows Subsystem for Linux (available in
Windows 10 I believe).

I'm not that familiar with the Windows Subsystem for Linux, but
it looks like it could be very useful. I'll set it up and try
to install DMD tonight if I have time.

The linux build of dmd has already been used on WSL to compile
ldc without a problem:

https://wiki.dlang.org/Build_LDC_for_Android#Notes_for_Bash_on_Ubuntu_on_Windows

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 14:40:11 UTC, Ola Fosheim
Grøstad wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 00:09:51 UTC, Ola Fosheim
Grøstad wrote:

On Tuesday, 7 November 2017 at 19:46:04 UTC, Joakim wrote:
Not at all, it makes things easier certainly, but there's a
reason why mobile devs always test on the actual devices,
because there are real differences.

Mostly with low level stuff in my experience.

And what experience would that be? I've admitted I've never
developed for Apple platforms, but my understanding is that
even leaving aside the completely different touch-first UI,
there are significant differences. I wonder what Mac apps you
simply ported the UI over to iPhone and they just worked.

Writing code from scratch for both. No, of course you cannot
port it without a little bit of work as the base UI class is
slightly different. However it is overall the same Objective-C
framework design.

Quoting apple:

«If you've developed an iOS app, many of the frameworks
available in OS X should already seem familiar to you. The
basic technology stack in iOS and OSX are identical in many
respects. But, despite the similarities, not all of the
frameworks in OS X are exactly the same as their iOS
counterparts»

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/OSX_Technology_Overview/MigratingFromCocoaTouch/MigratingFromCocoaTouch.html

This link also notes many other significant differences, such as
mobile hardware being much more constrained and "iOS users have
no direct access to the file system," as I mentioned.

You are thinking too much short term here IMHO. The mobile

sector is rather volatile.

I have no idea what this refers to: you have a bad habit of
adding asides without any explation or non sequiturs, so that
we're left stumped as to what you're talking about.

Over-quoting is spammy. So I don't, but here you go: The mobile
sector is more volatile than the desktop/laptop sector, hence
it would be a risky move to dump it. I think that was quite
clear from what I wrote though…

It was not clear because it is divorced from reality, which of
these two markets would you rather be in?

https://mobile.twitter.com/lukew/status/842397687420923904

In fact, Apple alone will likely sell more mobile iPhones and
iPads this year than every PC vendor combined (see third chart):

http://www.asymco.com/2016/11/02/wherefore-art-thou-macintosh/

They have already cut investment in Macs and are not bothering to
upgrade the existing Mac line for longer and longer, on the way
to axing that line altogether. The notion that their iOS line,
which now brings in the vast majority of their profits and
revenue, is riskier is a joke.

I see, so your claim is that MS, Nokia, HP, Sony, all much
larger companies than Apple or google at the time, could not
have countered them even on a lucky day. I wonder why this
is, as they certainly had more money, you don't believe
they're that bright? :)

No, it is because they didn't have the resources internally.
Money alone does not build teams or knowledge. Apple had worked
on similar technology for decades and could recycle the
frameworks for their desktop OS.

Yet the businesses that did build Android, ie google, HTC, and
so on, were much smaller than the corporate behemoths like HP
or Sony that you claimed above couldn't do it. Your claims
about who could or couldn't do it make absolutely no sense.

Of course it does. They were not into operating systems and
frameworks. Sony a little bit by having the Playstation, but
that was very narrow and for a very narrow low level segment of
programmers.

I see, so MS, Nokia, HP, Sony, and all the rest didn't have
"resources internally" or knowledge of "operating systems and
frameworks," but the much smaller search startup google did?
When google bought Android in 2005, they had yearly revenues of
$6 billion, a pittance compared to the PC and mobile giants you
are excusing:

https://www.informationweek.com/google-revenue-up-93--in-2005/d/d-id/1040162

I don't know if you're trying to make me laugh with these excuses
or what.

Their problem was likely that they got in too early and got
discouraged, not that they were "getting in late."

Apple was also in too early and got

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 00:09:51 UTC, Ola Fosheim
Grøstad wrote:

Mostly with low level stuff in my experience.

Writing code from scratch for both. No, of course you cannot port
it without a little bit of work as the base UI class is slightly
different. However it is overall the same Objective-C framework
design.

Quoting apple:

«If you've developed an iOS app, many of the frameworks available
in OS X should already seem familiar to you. The basic technology
stack in iOS and OSX are identical in many respects. But, despite
the similarities, not all of the frameworks in OS X are exactly
the same as their iOS counterparts»

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/OSX_Technology_Overview/MigratingFromCocoaTouch/MigratingFromCocoaTouch.html

I just said they're not going to dump it, so I don't know why
you're going on about that. If you mean their current lessened
investment is not a good idea, it's because the old desktop OS
doesn't matter as much, which is the whole point of this thread.

That would be an overall mistake as they would loose mindshare
among programmers, but nevertheless the desktop is a much more
mature environment.

You are thinking too much short term here IMHO. The mobile

sector is rather volatile.

I have no idea what this refers to: you have a bad habit of
adding asides without any explation or non sequiturs, so that
we're left stumped as to what you're talking about.

Over-quoting is spammy. So I don't, but here you go: The mobile
sector is more volatile than the desktop/laptop sector, hence it
would be a risky move to dump it. I think that was quite clear
from what I wrote though…

I see, so your claim is that MS, Nokia, HP, Sony, all much
larger companies than Apple or google at the time, could not
have countered them even on a lucky day. I wonder why this is,
as they certainly had more money, you don't believe they're
that bright? :)

Of course it does. They were not into operating systems and
frameworks. Sony a little bit by having the Playstation, but that
was very narrow and for a very narrow low level segment of
programmers.

Their problem was likely that they got in too early and got
discouraged, not that they were "getting in late."

Apple was also in too early and got discouraged, but they
reentered when the touch screen tech got better.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 12:35:19 UTC, codephantom wrote:


btw. I wonder if anyone has got the linux version of DMD x64 to 
run on the Windows Subsystem for Linux (available in Windows 10 
I believe).


I'm not that familiar with the Windows Subsystem for Linux, but 
it looks like it could be very useful. I'll set it up and try to 
install DMD tonight if I have time.

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:35:19 codephantom via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:47:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
>
> wrote:
> > Personally, I think that the best course of action in general
> > as a developer is to try and make your software as
> > cross-platform as reasonably possible and let folks run
> > whatever they want to run. A lot of the OS-related problems we
> > have stem from the fact that too often, software is written for
> > a specific OS (and not just Windows software is guilty of that).
>
> Well.. that was the role that POSIX was meant to play. Even
> Windows was on board, sort of, for a short time. What a joke that
> all turned out to be.
>
> "Perfect application portability across UNIX-based OSes is
> clearly beyond the realm of possibility." (from the 2016 paper
> below)
> -
> http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~vatlidak/resources/POSIXmagazine.pdf
>
> (conclusion: "We believe that a new revision of the POSIX
> standard is due, and we urge the research community to
> investigate what that standard should be."
>
> btw. I wonder if anyone has got the linux version of DMD x64 to
> run on the Windows Subsystem for Linux (available in Windows 10 I
> believe).

POSIX certainly helps, but each OS that implements it adds more stuff on top
of it (like extra flags or similar but different system calls that improve
on the POSIX ones), and there's plenty of stuff that's simply not part of
POSIX but is all over the place in slightly different forms, since it's not
part of a standard. Heck, even when something is part of POSIX, that doesn't
mean that it's properly and fully supported on a system that supports POSIX
- e.g. the stuff that's in librt (like clock_getttime) isn't implemented on
Mac OS X even though it's part of POSIX, so the stuff for getting the time
in core.time and std.datetime has to be different for Mac OS X. Granted, the
Mac OS X calls are actually better, but you're still stuck implementing the
code differently for different OSes in spite of a standard.

And while historically, Windows implemented some POSIX stuff, they went and
slapped an underscore on the front of all of the names, totally breaking
compatibility. The new Windows Subsystem for Linux should be a huge step
forward in some regards, but if I understand correctly, it's basically an
emulation layer for running linux programs and not something you'd use as
part of a Windows program. So, it only works if you're just looking to run
Linux programs under Windows, not if you want to write a program that runs
as part of Windows and can take advantage of the Windows stuff where it
needs to. So, how useful it is depends on what you're trying to do.

Improvements to standards to allow for more stuff to be written in a
cross-platform manner without versioning stuff it off for specific OSes is
definitely desirable, but the reality of the matter is that even OSes that
are very similar end up with differences that occasionally require
versioning code - sometimes even when the API being used is part of a
standard. And much as things could be improved, I don't see that ever
changing. It sure doesn't help though when each OS goes off and implements
something drastically different for core stuff (like opengl vs directx).
Some competition is good, but when a major API is platform-specific, it
makes it a _lot_ harder to write cross-platform code.

Ultimately though, even when dealing with different BSDs, you end up with
portability problems if you're not careful.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: [OT] mobile rising

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:47:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
Personally, I think that the best course of action in general 
as a developer is to try and make your software as 
cross-platform as reasonably possible and let folks run 
whatever they want to run. A lot of the OS-related problems we 
have stem from the fact that too often, software is written for 
a specific OS (and not just Windows software is guilty of that).


Well.. that was the role that POSIX was meant to play. Even 
Windows was on board, sort of, for a short time. What a joke that 
all turned out to be.


"Perfect application portability across UNIX-based OSes is 
clearly beyond the realm of possibility." (from the 2016 paper 
below)

-
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~vatlidak/resources/POSIXmagazine.pdf

(conclusion: "We believe that a new revision of the POSIX 
standard is due, and we urge the research community to 
investigate what that standard should be."


btw. I wonder if anyone has got the linux version of DMD x64 to 
run on the Windows Subsystem for Linux (available in Windows 10 I 
believe).

Re: [OT] mobile rising

2017-11-08 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d

On Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:35:17 codephantom via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> > ...
>
> Companies (along with their technologies and profits) are like
> waves in the ocean..they come..and they go..
>
> But BSD Unix.. like the energy which binds our molecules...will
> always be with us... it seems..
>
> So I re-iterate. If we all just used FreeBSD, then we'd all be
> sitting around a fire singing kumbaya (during our break from
> writing stuff in D), instead of debating the merits of Microsoft,
> Apple and Google.
>
> ..And btw..we could immediately start writing 64bit code, with
> only a tiny 16MB download (dmd for freebsd).
>
> What operating system can compete with that?

Linux.

Oh, I'm all for using FreeBSD, but most of the arguments for using FreeBSD
over Windows apply to Linux. And if you can't get someone to switch from
Windows to Linux, you're not going to get them to switch to FreeBSD. FreeBSD
and Linux are definitely different, but the differences are small when
compared with Windows.

Personally, I think that the best course of action in general as a developer
is to try and make your software as cross-platform as reasonably possible
and let folks run whatever they want to run. A lot of the OS-related
problems we have stem from the fact that too often, software is written for
a specific OS (and not just Windows software is guilty of that).
Unfortunately, it's not always reasonable or possible to write
cross-platform software, but IMHO, that should at least be the goal, even if
you're primarily targeting a single platform for release.

All of the software at one of my previous employers is written for Windows
and uses lots of Windows-specific stuff even when the code really has no
need to be Windows-specific. They've talked about wanting to run some of
their software on Linux, but they can't do it without some major rewrites
(to the point that it might actually be better to do it from scratch), and
they're far from alone in being that boat. And it's not like there's
something special about Windows that causes the problem. You could just as
easily write your software to be Linux or FreeBSD-specific and then want to
use it in a Windows application and be screwed. Writing your software to be
platform-agnostic really needs to be a goal from the start, and IMHO, it's
really not all that hard in most cases. It's just that too often, folks
assume that they're only ever going to target a single platform.

But if you write your software to be as platform-agnostic as you reasonably
can, then the platform that you're actually using matters a lot less. It
also means that you can take advantage of development tools from multiple
platforms.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: [OT] mobile rising


On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:

...


Companies (along with their technologies and profits) are like 
waves in the ocean..they come..and they go..


But BSD Unix.. like the energy which binds our molecules...will 
always be with us... it seems..


So I re-iterate. If we all just used FreeBSD, then we'd all be 
sitting around a fire singing kumbaya (during our break from 
writing stuff in D), instead of debating the merits of Microsoft, 
Apple and Google.


..And btw..we could immediately start writing 64bit code, with 
only a tiny 16MB download (dmd for freebsd).


What operating system can compete with that?

Re: [OT] mobile rising