Re: [tdf-discuss] outdated LibreOffice Portable (MS Windows)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Edmund, *,

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:36 AM Edmund Laugasson
 wrote:
>
> Sounds like MS Windows version of LibreOffice Portable is not maintained
> (or very slowly...)?   […]

Portable windows version is still maintained by John Haller from
portableapps - he made 6.2.2 available to TDF last week and it has
since been added to the download pages.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] outdated LibreOffice Portable (MS Windows)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:02 AM Florian Effenberger
 wrote:
> Edmund Laugasson  wrote on Wed, 17 Oct 2018
> 18:12:02 +0300:
> […]
> thanks for pointing out! John from PortableApps has created 6.1.2 and it
> will be available on our mirrors soon. :-)

And now is :-)
Skipping 6.1.1 should have been a one-time thing, I think you can
assume to have portable versions for all versions - not having one is
exception.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [board-discuss] Harassment and lack of code of conduct

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Eike Rathke
 wrote:
> On Thursday, 2017-01-12 12:24:47 +0100, Katarina Behrens wrote:
>
>> it has been brought to my attention that one of our (female) contributors, 
>> who
>> is also a TDF member (this is why membership committee is in Cc:) has been
>> harassed in a private mail by someone who reads development and general user
>> mailing list.
>
> This is of course inacceptable.

It definitely is. But what I am asking myself is:
How would a Code of Conduct help here? I mean people not using common
sense wouldn't suddenly change because there is a code of conduct.

Even more so in the case of using private mail and not using any of
the TDF hosted mailinglists.

>> This is quite a strong incentive for me to bring up the topic that is
>> perceived as controversial by many, namely (the lack of) code of conduct in
>> the community around TDF and (the absence of) action plan, as for what to do,
>> when bad things happen.

So what *could* be done? Tell that person he/she is a persona non
grata with that behaviour, but apart from that?

>> The most frequent (and in fact the only) argument I hear when mentioning code
>> of conduct, or the fact that TDF has no code of conduct to be precise, is 
>> "but
>> but but, we're such a bunch of nice guys, nothing bad has ever happened here,
>> nobody has ever been harassed, so why bother, why restrict freedom of speech
>> preemptively etc."

While I'm not opposing a code of conduct, my point is rather that it
wouldn't help, as there's not much TDF could do to prevent such
incidents, if at all only afterwards, but as you say the attacked
hesitate to bring it to attention.
(so a code of conduct without a dedicated point-of-contact for those
issues would be even more pointless)

> I agree we'll need such code of conduct. Even if we are (or were?)
> a bunch of only friendly people it would be no reason to not have one to
> make others feel more safe and secure who are not yet.
>
> Personally I like the Berlin Code of Conduct
> http://berlincodeofconduct.org/
> which is already supported by various user and hacker groups.
>
> If agreed, I suggest we make a formal decision at Bruxelles during our
> meet-ups along FOSDEM.

So say we have adopted the above CoC, and something like a PM
harassment occurs. What can TDF do? revoke TDF membership and revoke
editing/commit privileges. There's not much leverage unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not opposing a CoC, after all it
should be common sense anyway, but I just don't think it is a magic
wand that will help. But if it makes feel people better more assured
in bringing those incidents to TDF's attention, that alone would be
reason enough to have one.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] need help off this list - need Linux package choice help

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi,

Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster  schrieb am Mo.,
24.10.2016, 5:11:



What I need is a real easy, and fast, video file splitter for Ubuntu.

Fast and easy to use unfortunately kind of contradict themselves when it
comes to video editing.(or rather with the fast tools there's a learning
curve.)

ProjectX, m2vmp2cut, the mentioned avidemux2.

Depending on the format, you might be able to just split it by bytes
(transport streams for example)

Avidemux2 likely is easiest to use for newcomers..

Ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] where is debian help ?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi,

Fulano Diego Perez  schrieb am Sa., 04.06.2016,
13:05:


each time selecting LO help, this link wants to load:

https

://

help.libreoffice.org

/

swriter

/.uno%3AHelpIndex?Language=

en

-US=

UNIX

=5.1


Requesting en-us


but how do you access the local help, what format is it in ?

$ du -sh /usr/share/libreoffice/help/
25M/usr/share/libreoffice/help/

$ aptitude show libreoffice-help-en-gb

Having en-gb installed won't help.

Format is a jar archive with XML files in it (plus index files)



So either use LO in en-gb or install en-us help.

Ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] curiously wondering ...

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 9:44 PM, anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com wrote:
... and testing;
are my e-mails getting through to the lists?

At least this one made it through to the discuss@documentfoundation list.

I have heard nothing from the last e-mails I sent to the list -
and I would very much appreciate knowing why that one person
 yelled at me alone
   when he obviously could have easily unsubscribed himself.

Oh, people often enough are irrational

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can't Locate LibreOfffice 4.0.4

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 4:48 PM, CVAlkan fobe...@enteract.com wrote:
 I'm currently running version 4.0.3.3 (Build ID:
 0eaa50a932c8f2199a615e1eb30f7ac74279539) on the 64bit Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, and
 for the past several days I've been getting the notification that version
 4.0.4 of LibreOffice is available for download.
 [...]
 Dutifully following these instructions leads me to
 http://www.libreoffice.org/download/, and requesting the appropriate
 download eventually leads me to an error page
 (http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz)
 with the following message:

 HTTP ERROR: 504
 Gateway Timeout

Strange to see a gateway timeout, as there is no additional gateway
involved. (mirrorbrain, the mirror-handling thing is an apache-plugin,
maybe that had a timeout and caused that message? not sure..)

RequestURI=http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz

That one works here.

Please try again - if it still occurs, then it is a problem on your
end, otherwise it was a temporary glitch.. (we switched dns entries to
a new host, but that was a few days ago)

If it still fails, then I assume the list of mirrors for that file
won't work either (
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz.mirrorlist
) - so here a few you can choose from:
Germany:
http://mirror1.hs-esslingen.de/pub/Mirrors/tdf/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz
USA:
http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/tdf/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz
Japan:
http://www.ftp.ne.jp/office/tdf/libreoffice/stable/4.0.4/deb/x86_64/LibreOffice_4.0.4_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Libre Office for Android

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Gordon, *,

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can anyone say how this is coming on? The latest I can find on the web was
 about this time last year...

Development is ongoing, but no end-user ready stuff yet.
snapshot-builds are available, but let me stress: Developers are not
interested in end-user-feedback at this point. They are aware that lot
of stuff needs work.

So feel free to try it, but keep feedback to yourself (unless you want
and are able to change stuff yourself :-))

http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Android-X86@25-Bytemark-Hosting/current/
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Android-ARM@24-Bytemark-Hosting/current/

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] How I could search queries in the archives of this list?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Guillermo, *,

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Guillermo Molleda Jimena
gmoll...@us.es wrote:
 How I can search the archives of this list?
 In http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 I not see a search engine.

Yes, those archives are simple archives, but the ones hosted at TDF
are only one of many different archives. You could use a web-search
engine like Volker suggested, or use mail-archive.com for example.

The lists are integrated well, for example each mail to the list has
an Archived-At: header that has a direct link to the message in the
archive. For example your mail has:
Archived-At: http://go.mail-archive.com/NpF8KA-esg0g-omGxy3g53HIJe4=

If you follow that link, you'll get to your post (
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg09875.html
)
All our lists are archived at mail-archive.com and can be reached
easily, for example:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/ or
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/

It offers a nice interface (including access-keys for keyboard-based
reading/navigation) and a powerful search.

Other alternatives are gmane (although I always have a hard time
remembering the way they create the newsgroup name, so if at all I
always get there via google :-)) or nabble.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] NMake vs MinGW

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Jonathan, *,

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rainer what i want to understand is why use an external build tool when
 there is an equivalent to make built directly into visual studio.

You are completely missing the point here. The default build /does/
use Visual Studio Compiler, that is the default setup/the only
officially supported one to begin with.

mingw ist not a make system, but a compiler.
nmake is not a compiler, but a make-tool.

Replacing one by the other just doesn't work, since they do completely
different things.

LO uses gnu make as its make-tool since that is available to all
relevant systems and supports the features that are needed.

And if you're wondering why the build uses the Microsoft compiler instead:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Windows_Build_Dependencies#Why_MSVC.3F
##
Why MSVC?

It is a frequently asked question, usually coming from free software
purists, why we use proprietary compiler instead of a free one (e.g.
gcc).

ABI backwards-compatibility for compiled extensions. There is some
resistance to breaking that - also so far MSVC produces faster,
smaller binaries.

There are also some features in the code that don't compile with
MinGW. They use API that MinGW does not provide headers for etc.

In addition to above points also there are also open questions around
how we would run unit tests in a MinGW cross-compilation environment
and how well gdb works on Windows; the MSVC C++ debugger is really
quite good.
##

You're comparing apples and oranges. That just doesn't make any sense.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Macro Difficulties

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Charles Jenkins cejw...@gmail.com wrote:

 You're right. My attempt to fool with options didn't work at first because I 
 misidentified the file's character set, so I thought the csv in the filter 
 name was significant and embarked on the quest to convert to CSV.

Ah, OK :-) - teh csv filter is used synonymous for all character
separated values, not specific to a comma, although that is the most
used ones. One could argue whether tsv deserves a special mention or
not, but you don't add hsv (hyphen separated) or all other kinds of
other fileextensions

 Now that I have the right character set, everything works perfectly!!!

 I have put up a post on SAP's community network site to let others know it's 
 possible to export from Business One to LibreOffice; hopefully it will help 
 the switchers out there. I start my post off by publicly thanking you and 
 Eduardo.

Great to hear that it works, and of course thanks for sharing your
findings with others!

 If you'd like to see the post, it's at: http://scn.sap.com/thread/3325286

Allow me some nitpicking :-)

 Public Sub StarOpenTsvFile(tsvPath As String)
 Dim starDesktop As Object
 Dim url As String
 Dim doc As Object
 Dim parms(1) As New com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue
 parms(0).Name = FilterName
 parms(0).Value = Text - txt - csv (StarCalc) ' Name is incorrect, but 
 required

The name is of course correct, as that is what the filter is called.
It is for text based (Text) Spreadsheets (StarCalc), most commonly
with txt and csv extensions. It is not limited to comma separated
files. I prefer to read csv as character separated, as that matches it
much better, as multiple delimers, or also no delimter at all (when
using fixed-width columns) can be used.
It doesn't explicitly list tsv or other possible filename extensions though.

 parms(1).Name = FilterOptions
 parms(1).Value = 9,,65535,1 ' Tab seps, no string delim, UTF-16 
 charset, begin at line 1

having a pointer to documentation for these kind of magic strings is
always nice to have :-)

Otherwise: Thanks again for sharing the solution - too often one does
just read Solved my problem, bye and doesn't get to know what the
actual solution was, so thumbs up :-)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Macro Difficulties

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Charles Jenkins cejw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Now if only I can find a way to convert my tab-separated .txt file to a 
 comma-separated .csv file, I think all would be golden.

Hmm. Either I'm completely missing the point here, or you do :-)

With the properties, you explicitly set the filter to the spreadsheet
one (FilterName), and with the other (FilterOptions), you define how
the file is structured - you can configure what separator is used,
what column types they have. Just read the linked wiki page.

Here once again:
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Spreadsheets/Filter_Options#Filter_Options_for_the_CSV_Filter

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Macro Difficulties

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Charles Jenkins cejw...@gmail.com wrote:

 dim dummy() ' Empty array of parameters

 starDesktop = createUnoService(com.sun.star.frame.Desktop)
 url = ConvertToUrl( ExcelPath )
 doc = starDesktop.loadComponentFromURL( url, _blank, 0, dummy )

 I think I need what is described in 
 http://knowledgebase.progress.com/articles/Article/P147655 -- an extension 
 that can wrap strings into the property values required by 
 loadComponentFromUrl(), so I can fill the array of parameters in a way that 
 tells LO it will be loading the text file into a spreadsheet.

The extension just is a helper function for pretty-printing, you
surely don't need that, but can enter the values right away.

Dim args() as new com.sun.star.beans.PropertyValue
args(0).Name = FilterName
args(0).Value = Text - txt - csv (StarCalc)
args(1).Name = FilterOptions
args(1).Value = yourfilteroptionsstring

http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Spreadsheets/Filter_Options#Filter_Options_for_the_CSV_Filter

HTH,
ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Forums Proposal

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Charles-H. Schulz
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 But the discussion was started about users forums. Anything besides that
 would require the interested teams to have been consulted before.

This thread (or these threads, as they have gone to various lists, the
interesting teams) /is/ the consulting *before*.

As Marc correctly pointed out: This is part of the job he and the
other coordinators did volunteer for. Get the initial forum structure
sorted out, ask the affected people for their input.

Your reply (or should I say the tone of your reply) was not
appropriate in this scenario.

 What I
 fear at this stage is both confusion from new contributors (for instance
 someone submitting a patch to a forum might never get picked up because
 devs would not bother reading the forum) and exhaustion from the
 moderators.

Björn and others made it pretty clear from the very start that core
development will continue to use the mailinglists, and I don't
remember anyone questioning that, so the notification was just that. -
A notification.

No list will be forced to move to the forum.

If people complain, then they complain and state: No, thanks.

If you read the mails, you notice that this is one of the options that
were offered.

That now you tell the Board wants a forum exclusively meant for
user-support I reply WTF did nobody else from the board point that
out earlier.
Björn after all is Deputy on the Board, and his input early in the
process was the basis for all this, as it was quite a reasonable thing
to do.

So while I don't question your intentions, I question your style in this regard.

Yes, suggesting to move a list to the forum is controversial, Björn
did already anticipate that. But that by itself doesn't make it a
stupid idea that needs to be stopped at all cost.

Just say: No thanks, I prefer to keep whatever to use the
mailinglists and move on to the next topic.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Forums Categories Proposal

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Joel, *,

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote:
 On 09/27/2012 05:11 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 [...]
Not sure wether I like the creation of an off-topic area right from the start...

 [...]
 For installation related questions, people can be asked in a sticky to
 prefix their topics with [win] [lin] [mac] (, [sol], [and] [ios],...)

 The reality is that most users don't read sticked stuff so asking for them
 to do certain things in those notes might just be ignored.

Well - it is a forum, there will be moderators, so topics can be
adjusted if people don't follow the rules by themselves.

In another post Leif suggested a bugs and errors section.
I'm strongly opposed to this. Bugzilla is the one and only way to file
bug/error reports.
Everything else is just creating a wrong impression, while in fact
those reports will not be looked at.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibreOffice Forums Categories Proposal

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 Le 2012-09-27 08:11, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :
 On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com  wrote:

 Users who have problems with installs generally do not come to a forums/list
 with the idea that the be directed to a tutorial, they are more interested
 in advice with a real person. Tutorials are nice as extra resource, but the
 primary reason for a user who has come to a forums for installation help is
 to get help by an informed person, which is what we are offering.

Oh, you're oversimplifying things here, while of course the goal is
that people get help by informed person, just creating separate
categories will not magically assure this.

 * Catch-all/General (also the place to ask installation/configuration
 problems if not covered by the tutorials) - might even consider to put
 Base into this forum as well.

 For installation related questions, people can be asked in a sticky to
 prefix their topics with [win] [lin] [mac] (, [sol], [and] [ios],...)

 We tried to do this on the contributor mailing lists and the results are
 that even the contributors do not do this.

I'll scream the next time someone comes with a but on mailinglist.. argument.
For heavens sake: We're setting up a forum because it is *NOT* a mailinglist.

On a mailinglist new posters don't see existing posts. While they
could visit the archives, they usually don't, and existing posts
cannot be modified. So when someone doesn't follow the rules, it
cannot be corrected.

This is all the opposite for forums. When people see the tag being
used, they'll use it. If it is forgotten once, a moderator will add
it.

Coming with the argument that it is more work for moderators is only
halfway true.
Moderators are initially expected to scan every message that is posted
for valid content/whether it matches the forum it was posted in or
needs to be moved. So the more in effort is in actually editing the
topic. But that IMHO is a rather small burden.

 So, if the people engaged in the
 project do not follow this rule, how could we justify asking users to do
 follow this rule?

Again: It is the moderators' job that the forum rules are followed.
And contrary to mailinglists, those rules are enforceable. In a well
maintained forum you'll see many existing topics following that
schema. And if the person asking a new question is not mentally
retarded, he might get the idea just by viewing the existing topics,
without having read the sticky post/some rules on a separate page.

 I find it easier to categorize the forums to make it easier on both the
 users and moderators-helpers; thereby making prefixes unnecessary.

Empty forums / forums with only a handful posts are a nuisance.
But hey, that's exactly the reason I didn't want to be coordinator,
but leave the decision to someone else :-)

 [...]
 Whether a forums has fewer questions are not, IMO, is not a good reason to
 combine them.

I personally disagree on this. Within the OOo-Project there were many
such dead mailinglists, and that just lead to people posting to more
general lists just to reach more people, either leaving out the
dedicated mailinglist completely, or only including it in cc.
And yes, now I did myself come up with but on mailinglists argument :-)
puts head onto pillow ans screams/

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Portable

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Pedro,

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all

 Is TDF in some way related to LibreOffice Portable?

Only insofar that Portable versions are hosten on our mirror
infrastructure and are advertized/available on our download pages.

They are not produced by TDF itself.

 Shouldn't there be an equivalent Portable version for each stable release?

Portable releases always come a little after the original release, but
if there is one, it is added...

see e.g. 
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86lang=en-USversion=3.6.1
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/portable/3.6.1/
(see that there actually is a left-over build available, not sure
whether it is intentional to host both 3.6.1 and 3.6.1.1)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version 3.6.0 is Recommended???

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Steven, *,

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Steven Shelton ste...@sheltonlegal.net wrote:
 On 8/11/2012 4:26 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:
 Pedro wrote (10-08-12 21:03)
 [...]
 Something we have to keep in mind too for the 3.5.6 version, in RC2 at
 the moment...

Disabled the Recommended string yesterday. Did not add it for the
3.5.x version, since it would be strange to advertize 3.6.0 by
default, but then have a different version as recommended on the
version-selection page.

 Actually, I'd really like it if we made the older versions (older than
 3.5) available. Currently, you can't download anything older than v 3.5.5.

All previous releases of LibreOffice are available.

http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Volker, *,

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Volker Merschmann
merschm...@gmail.com wrote:
 2012/8/14 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com:
 Le 2012-08-13 15:47, Johnny Rosenberg a écrit :

 So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just
 replying),

In my version of gmail (in chromium browser), there is no difference
in number of clicks for reply and reply all.

Only if it is no the most recent one, but even then it is not a big
deal, as you can just use the reply button and then switch to reply
all in the message-composing-area. (don't have to open the
message-menu of the message you want to reply to.

 then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit

Just don't do this!
The whole point in not messing with the reply-to header is that the
message goes to everyone in the message thread.

This is what the developers want!

They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already receive
enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a request for
feedback to the list and receive the replies without the need to
subscribe first or to check mail-archives.

Also it won't help moderated user-requests if you remove them. If
people don't subscribe but send a request to the list, then the list
receives the answer, but not the person who asked.

Just leave all people in the loop.

It is much easier for people to delete duplicated messages (gmail
collapses them  anyway/you don't see duplicates at all) than having to
hunt for replies when they are not subscribed.

 Does it not says Reply to group on the bottom of the message in GMail?

 No, sadly not.

It does say reply to all for the last message in the conversation,
and also in the message-editing view (given that there are multiple
addresses in the message already)

So:
Don't use reply only to list please, use reply to all

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Stefan, *,

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Stefan Weigel
stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote:
 Am 14.08.2012 19:13, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
 [...]
 They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already
 receive enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a
 request for feedback to the list and receive the replies without
 the need to subscribe first or to check mail-archives.

 Does this really make sense? The sender of the request would only
 receive those mails, that are a direct response to his question.

Not only direct repsonses, but all responses that keep using reply to all.
Only if someone breaks this by replying only to the list, the initial
poster won't receive replies starting with that mail anymore.

A writes to list
B replies to list  A
C replies to posting of B that now goes to A, B  the list
D replies to posting from B, but only sends to list. A won't recieve
that copy if not subscribed.
E replies to posting to D, A won't receive that copy if not subscribed
(and E doesn't add A manaully)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: AskLibO blitzes

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Rainer, *,

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Rainer Bielefeld
libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de wrote:
 Pedro schrieb:

 The main problem with AskLibO is that there are few people answering
 questions on a regular basis.

 The job there is frustrating. Many of the questions are lousy, but that also
 might be a Help problem.

Answering that there isn't enough info is of course also a valid
answer. And feel free to just close those when there is no further
info after a couple of day.

 And a Thank you is the exception.

Well - that I don't consider a problem - unless you also consider
votes as a Thank you.

The thank you on ask.libreoffice.org is the upvoting of your
answer/flagging it as correct.
And giving votes is not limited to the person who asked that specific
question, but everyone who reads an entry should use their votes
accordingly.

 The tool really has great potential, but some more administration will be
 required to get best benefit for users with questions with acceptable costs.

I don't think it is an administration problem, but rather a problem of
educating people about it..

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] AskLibO blitzes

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 Would it be a good idea to organize a monthly call for a AskLibO blitz?

 I think this would solve some of the outstanding unanswered questions queue.
 We could all agree on maybe a 2-day spree where we could all check in and
 answer as many questions as possible. The 2-day spree would also allow for a
 return to those who answered just in case of a need to update and reply to
 the answer.

While this will bring the # of unanswered questions down, I'd rather
have people who ask question also answer other ones :-)

People don't make enough use of their votes yet, they are not really
familiar with the system yet.

What I'd like to avoid is that there will be 10 people answering all
the questions...

But going though the unanswered ones (preferrably in oldest first
order) is of course a good idea, but hopefully it will not be the same
people doing all the work.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Mail Merge to Email in Writer

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

I know I'm late to this thread, but anyway.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13/04/2012 14:40, Cor Nouws wrote:

 Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (13-04-12 15:35)

 Yes, but that is what an email client does, not a word processor

 Then how to do all this from your word processor on any system ..?

 But all systems set a default email client.the File-Send-Document as
 Email uses whatever you (the User) have set as the default email client. So
 how hard is it to make the mail merge do the same thing?

It is unsuitable for automatic processing, as every mail requires
user-interaction. While LO can pre-fill *some* of the fields (and what
those fields are depend on the email-program), it cannot auto-send it.
The user would have to sit in front of the screen and manually click
send for every mail. Surely nothing suitable for an automatic
email-merge.

But the actual reason why I respond:
Just use an smtp server that keeps record of the mails you send.
gmail does this by default - every mail you send is available in the
sent folder.

Other mail-providers surely have similar options. Maybe they won't
keep sent mails forever, but you should be able to copy them from your
sent folder to your archive or something similar.

Or just add your own account into bcc of every mail. That way you also
have a record of every mail that was sent.

Or, as suggested here: Write a small patch that writes a logfile of
the sent mail. Writing the logging is very easy (just add
print-statements to the python-code that sends the mails) - adding a
UI control for it is a little bit more complicated.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Juan, *,

On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Juan Pradas juanpra...@zaragoza.es wrote:

 thanks for your remarks and questions about the flight connections.

Thank you very much for the detailed response.

 [...]
 In your case, for example, I would probably get a flight from Munich to
 Barcelona, Madrid or Bilbao, and then train (or bus for cheap budgets) to
 Zaragoza, 6h of TGV and then going to Orly or CDG are definitely too much
 for me.

Yes, probably a better option, yes..

 But, of course, is easier to get from Munich to Berlin than from Munich to
 Zaragoza :-)

:-)

 [...]
 Hope this info is useful for you, let me know in case you need anything
 else, best regards,

Yes, it definitely was very helpful. Once again thank you very much.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Andreas, *,

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Andreas Mantke ma...@gmx.de wrote:
 Am Freitag, 3. Februar 2012, 14:08:58 schrieb Jesús Corrius:
 On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Florian Effenberger
 flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 (...)
  I am open for discussion, of course, but I wonder that you seem to have a
  different opinion now, since the BoD has voted on this during the last
  call. ;-)

 I am just open to discussions ;) But I was just talking to this
 particular case, we need to define this for the future.

 If this is talking about the future, I wonder, why you jump into this thread.

Got out of the bed with the wrong foot first?

 We had a public discussion and decision of the BoD already. If there are no 
 unknown
 facts or new arguments, we should not discuss and decide again (and again).

I admit that I didn't follow the meeting, did not read the minutes,
but what Jesús did propose would make a nice compromise, wouldn't it
(not suggesting that it should be used for this year's voting, but to
consider for the next round)

 (...)
 A possible solution would be:

 1. Invite all the TDF members to vote by default.
 2. If you are not a member of the TDF but you also want to vote, send
 a message to someone (Florian maybe? :P) and you will be invited.

 Point 2 would be a nice job ;-(
 Maybe we will also hear some complaints, if someone missed to send a mail in 
 time.

??
I absolutely don't get your point. You are saying that writing a mail
is too much work, and that not writing a mail to be invited is a
problem?
Those non-TDF-members are not allowed to vote now, so how is opening a
door for them too much of a problem?

But maybe I completely misunderstood and you're talking about the
opposite side, the group of people that are needed to process those
manual requests (i.e. create a voting token and send out the
corresponding link)

 I think we should invite every contributor to apply for a membership status 
 and then
 he / she could vote for the venue of the conferences 2013 and later. It would 
 be good
 to increase our member base.

But a rather bad reason. If you register just to be able to vote, then
your commitment to the project is questionable, and thus the entire
membership status is questioned. (remember that becoming a member
requires past contributions (in whatever form) and the moral
commitment to continue contributing in a similar fashion). I want to
vote for the location of the next conference is not enough in my
opinion.

(But don't get me wrong, sending messages to known contributors who
did not yet apply for membership is of course fine, but not if the
reason behind is otherwise you won't be able to vote for the
LO-conference)

ciao
Christian

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[tdf-discuss] Question/Request for Zaragoza team: more travel details please (how to get to Zaragoza)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

I was approached with a plea to bring up the travel topic to the list,
so straight to the point:

* It would be nice if Zaragoza's team could elaborate more on how to
get to Zaragoza (by plane)

It should not be a huge problem, given that it already held some
international conferences, but nevertheless there are a couple of
pitfalls:

the usual find me a cheap flight to XY portals and other
travel-planning portals cannot be used, as ryanair is not included in
those portals (probably because of their you have to pay a extra fee
for stuff that is included with other airlines policy), and it
doesn't use the main airports, but the lesser frequented ones, thus
you always have to commute from $big_airport/$train_station to
$ryanair_airport. That complicates things quite a bit. (and it doesn't
help that you cannot see a schedule on ryanair's website, and it
appears that all flights are not available - there are available seats
in march, but when you go to the future, all you get is the not
available icon. (Oct/Nov is out of the schedule already, so no hits
at all, probably also making people believe there is no connection)...

After being contacted, I also tried to find a way from Munich to
Zaragoza, so let me describe the problems by example. Feel free to
stop reading here, or jump to the next ##

Tried the various portals as outlined above, for example swoodoo,
expedia and a couple of others - none of them could find a connection
from Munich to Zaragoza, and not even from Paris to Zaragoza (I knew
from the proposal that ryanair serves this route (again not Paris CDG,
but Beauvais, 80-90km outside Paris)

Thus no direct way, and even if there was a route from MUC to Paris, I
would have to commute between airports, so went to ryanair website and
looked for flights - problem see above. No schedule (or I'm too dumb
to find it), and the booking system to check for flights basically is
useless, as unless you look in the next months, you won't get any
results. (and it uses captcha, that you have to keep filling out after
X requests). On the plus side, the flights really are quite cheap,
even if you add the additional fees for your luggage and not paying
with ryanair's own payment-card/system. (You can get it starting at
about 60 € (with one piece of luggage with max. 15kg)).

So next step - get to Paris - that's an easy one and surprisingly
cheap as well - Deutsche Bahn has Europa Spezial tickets that cost
39€ from Munich to Paris (with TGV a little more than 6 hours) - but
you can book that 92 days in advance only and availability is
limited...  On the plus side, that connection runs multiple times a
day...

So I need to connect the two - I know French  English, so that was no
real problem for me, but it took quite some time nevertheless, as the
private shuttle services did a good job with google... Unless you're
traveling in a large group, you pay more than 100€ one way. (if you
start looking for info at the correct places, you'll have that info
much quicker of course).
Here only the short version:
* Beauvais airport has a shuttle service to the city, but not to any
of the other airports, and not to any of the main stations, but to a
rather random metro station (at least to me it is random to me - Porte
Maillot) it's 15€ per trip, about 90 minutes but depending on traffic
conditions)
* Porte Maillot and Gare de l'est requires changing trains once (at
Palais Royal/Louvre) and metro is cheap (1,70€ per trip, around 30
minutes)

So in theory I got a connection, but it took quite a while to figure it out...

#
so essence of the above:

* you won't find ryanair flights in the common travel portals/meta search sites.
* Ryanair doesn't serve the main airports, but uses smaller ones, so
you almost certainly have to commute from airport to airport or from
train station to airport.

Example:
Paris → Zaragoza:
It is from Beauvais airport (BVA), 80/90km north of Paris
There is a bus-shuttle between Porte Maillot (a Metro station)  the
airport, organized by the airport (15€ per trip, around 90 minutes)
shuttle

This info probably should be enough to get the idea, and probably is
enough to help out the person who contacted me - but maybe you could
line it out/point to the info from previous conferences.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [tdf-discuss] Italian user list seems to be broken or in busy state: what's the matter?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Carlo Strata wrote on 2012-01-12 13:34:

 Italian user list (us...@it.libreoffice.org) seems to be broken or in
 some busy state: what's the matter?
 It may be since about January the 4th.
 [...]
 I just checked, and the list seems to work fine. Not many messages coming
 in, but the last one was from January 11th, sent by you:

To add on that: Looking at the logs: A couple of messages have been
rejected as SPAM, but judging from the sender-addresses
do-not-re...@select2gether.com or norespon...@yahoo.com.es or
mrcostaakdam...@msn.com those rejections seem to be legitimate.

But you might post a notice stating something if you receive a
message stating that your post was rejected as spam, please send again
and cc the postmaster (@documentfoundation.org) address to evaluate
the reason.

But to state it clearly: I as well as Florian see nothing wrong with
the list - it just is a more silent list - not unusual for it to not
receive a post for a few days.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Suggestion: Open to last edited page

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Volker, *,

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Volker Merschmann merschm...@gmail.com wrote:

 I remember we have had this feature in a former OOo-version, but I do
 not remember why it has been dropped.

Because it has not been dropped. It behaves just as in OOo: When the
data in user-data doesn't match the data in the document properties
(or is empty), this means for LO → open at first page. If user-data is
filled out (Name), and it matches the document properties
(creted/saved by), then it will open at saved cursor position, i.e.
last edit position.

 Maybe related to a change in the
 ODF-format.

Nope, nothing like that.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace Floppy Disk

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote:
 Although not paying sufficient homage to the brilliant Umberto Eco, it would 
 seem that having good tool tips would matter for both the icons (which are 
 often quite tiny) and for accessibility reasons.  And the 
 internationalization of the tool tips may be rather important.

Without having read the article: Don't forget that we are not talking
about icons in general here, but about toolbar-buttons.

The what does it do question of course requires a tooltip, that is
not the question, but a toolbar-button has a much more important
meaning than the metaphor behind:
* It saves place.
* You can distinguish images much faster than you can distinguish text
* after a while you don't even have to distinguish icons anymore, you
remember the position anyway, since you use the function so often,
look at the toolbar all the time.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what the icon depicts unless you can
clearly distinguish it from the other ones. As mentioned: Even when
people don't recognize the save-icon as a floppy, but as a TV - they
don't have any problem with associating When I click on that button,
the documents gets saved.

The floppy-icon has the benefit of being used in other applications as
well, so when they know how to save in wordpad using the toolbar,
they'll know how to save in LO using the toolbar.

 It would also be good that the default arrangement of the icons not change, 
 no matter what the symbols/images are.

Exactly. Or better: Changing both the appearance as well as the
arrangement at the same time is a big no-no.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [announce DRAFT] TDF announces its new Membership Committee

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

2011/11/11 Takeshi Abe t...@fixedpoint.jp:
 On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:34:53 +0100, Christian Lohmaier 
 lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote:
 (snip)

 If the announcement is to be sent out today or tomorrow, I guess
 keeping the today is just fine - but I would find it awkward to read
 a translated announcement one week after the original, and still
 talking about today)
 Thanks a lot for your suggestion!

You're very welcome

 Honestly now I found my mistake sending this message to this list instead of
 disc...@ja.libreoffice.org of Japanese community, where usually we request
 proofreading of localized drafts for announcement from TDF.

I thought so, and it was a nice diversion from business as usual
(for me at least)

 A lesson I have learned is that even my fault can get a pertinent response
 like yours :)

And I feel ashamed since when reading my response in your mail, I
immediately spot two stupid (easy to avoid by just reading
again/paying more attention) mistakes (and there probably are more)
:-)
But the message came across and that is what counts, isn't it?

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Augustine, *,

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/8/11, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote:

 en.libreofficeforum.org is not too shabby at all and would serve the purpose.

 If I remember there was some opposition to Google ads featuring
 competing software but that's really a non-issue.

I still dislike the adds as a whole, and also I don't really like the
choice of presenting the posts. I'd like the default category view
like for example on http://libreoffice-forum.de/ much better

(The adds are also the main reason why I personally wouldn't like to
feature it as the official forum - if people don't mind the recent
post view I don't care)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Ken Springer wrote on 2011-11-02 22:48:

 If you prefer your help system to be a forum, that's available through
 the Nabble interface and Gmane.

 sadly, Nabble is not seen as forum at all.

Yes, because it is none.

 I don't know why, but many -
 especially novice - users have complained and do not use Nabble.

You cannot move threads to other topics, you cannot edit messages
afterwards, you cannot delete posts, you cannot mark posts as sticky
or resolved, etc.

All those features are considerably useful when used properly, but
from my experience too many clueless people join forums, and the same
old questions get posted over and over again, people don't make use of
those additional features and in the end it is used as a mailinglist
with reduced functionality.

If LO is going to have an own forum, then there shall be a bunch of
moderators that are to ensure to keep the different topics organized,
ensure that a certain level of posting discipline is respected, make
sure that the repeated questions or spam-posts to just put an older
topic further up the list are kept to a minimum. Forum-Sheriffs if you
want to use a loaded term.

This is where I see the biggest problem. You need to have a big number
of dedicated people who clean up the mess that the mass of regular
users create to keep a forum usable. And I'm not sure that a new forum
will have those people.

In former times, when you had a technical problem, you would use your
search-engine of choice and after browsing through 5 or 6 links, you
would get your answer.
Nowadays, you get thousands of hits, many to forums where the same
question is posted to a sh*tload of different forums, full of I have
the same problem style posts but with no answer. Or the answer is
solved by using different hardware/software instead. And the best of
all are those are the fixed the problem, topic can be closed style
posts (don't even bother to tell others how you fixed that problem).
And of course then there is the forum-post signature spam when looking
for info regarding a specific hardware or similar, people put a big
list of stuff they once owned to all of their posts, rendering any
search useless as all irrelevant posts are returned just because the
term appears in the signature in every post/thread the user does post.

My fear is that the same will happen to any newly created Forum when
there is already a big userbase.

And as you might have noticed, I'm not a big fan of forums. I'm
actually only using one forum, one that one is tightly scoped.
And my aversion against forums is not the technology, but rather what
the people make of it. As long as it has a sane
mail-notification/subscription system and doesn't force me to visit a
webpage and hunt for replies myself, I would be fine.

Replying to topics via mail would be a great plus though. - But I am
not aware of any of the big forum-software that would support this.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] offsite website backup

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:
 Emailed them no response

What is this then?
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05664.html

a reply withing 20 minutes of your post. Please don't call this no response.

You surely won't get any bonus or credibility points for that...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Fuzzy pictures on PDF export

[Christian Lohmaier]

HI *,

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Fernand Vanrie s...@pmgroup.be wrote:

 Sometimes, the  PDF converter make a picture at 96 dpi off the parts off
 the doc ( a frame, table or even the complete document) who contains
 elements who can not been converted to PDF. Transparency is the most likely
 cause for this . Then your text is in pixels at 96 dpi  and looks crispy.

Transparency is only a problem when you use the restricted PDF-A1
format, regular PDF supports transparency.

So if the picture quality export setting  using regular PDF-export
doesn't solve the problem, then file a bug and attach a sample
document with the image and a PDF produced by OOo and one by LO for
comparison.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] mailing list filtering

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Christian Lohmaier
lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Christophe Strobbe
 christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:

 This address is subscribe, so no moderation necessary, no delays
 because of manual intervention. So when there is a problem, then it is
 on a technical level.

Investigation results:
Mail in question claims wrong charset, resulting in invalid characters
when processing and ultimately rejecting the message.

So the bug is that the message is silently dropped in this case,
instead of resulting in a bounce or similar.

ciao
Christian

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[tdf-discuss] Re: IAccessible2, IBM, Oracle (was: (...) Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christophe, *,

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
 At 18:21 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Christophe Strobbe
 christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
  At 16:14 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
  On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Christophe Strobbe
  christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
   At 23:16 4-6-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
  [...]
  If Oracle asks IBM to implement IAccessible2 on version 3.1 and releases
  OpenOffice.org 3.2 before IBM has submitted the IAccessible2
  implementation,
  how is IBM to blame?

 Reality check please. 1st of all: What is stuff you know, and what is
 stuff you guess?
 Do you know that the 3.1 based ia2 dump/work is because Oracle asked for
 it?
 If Oracle asked for it, do you know when Oracle asked for it?
 Do you think Oracle really is so stupid to explicitly ask for code
 based on an old branch?
 If Oracle did ask for it, and IBM did contribute - why wasn't the
 cws integrated?

 CS:
 What reality check? I talked to and exchanged mails with people in
 Oracle and IBM. Since September 2008 I have been involved in a European
 RD project on accessibility where Oracle (previously Sun) is one of the
 biggest partners. So I talked to accessibility folks at Oracle. That
 is reality.
 Yes, IBM donated an IAccessible2 implementation to Oracle. Malte
 Timmermann talked about this at FOSDEM 2011:
 http://www.fosdem.org/2011/schedule/event/ooo_accessibility.

That is completely missing my point once again. You cannot deduce from
that that IBM did the work to port it to a 3.x codebase and
re-donate the code that was dumped on the 1.1 codeline. Who had to
do the work is unclear. And despite you apparently having some deeper
insight than the rest of us, you just don't clarify this. So for me it
stays guesswork.

You again evaded the question What do you know, what do you guess.
Whether you have been in talks or in some projects involved shows your
overall interest/competence in accessibility matters, but absolutely
nothing in this concrete question. Maybe you know, maybe you don't.
All I know is that you're writing in a what-if style, making
assumptions, but never I know that it was like that.

 At 18:21 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 2nd) Obviously you cannot integrate something that is not ready.
 Why was it not ready? Because nobody worked on it.

 CS: I throw your own question back to you: What is stuff you know, and
 what is stuff you guess? ;-)

Well, I know about cws system, I know that this is a rather
high-profile feature, I know that people like to get rid of work
instead of carrying it along for years. So I don't know what happened
within the cws, but it is pretty clear to me that it wasn't ready for
inclusion, as otherwise it would have been included.
Again: that feature was promised for years, nothing did happen. And my
whole point is about the credibility of IBM's announcements to
collaborate.
All that I see  know for sure is that it took 5 years and the code
still is not in the repo.

 At 18:21 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 Who could do the
 work on it? Of course best the developers who know the code, i.e IBM
 developers.
 And you cannot delay a release for years. (the cws Caolan mentioned in
 the blog-comment was created in 2010-05 - while the branch-off for 3.2
 already happened 2009-09 more than half a year earlier)

  Between 3.1 and 3.2 the code had changed and had been moved to another
  type of repository.

 Again reality check. Oracle surely did ask for the code to be
 contributed against the current, actively being-worked-on codeline.

 CS: Again: What is stuff you know, and what is stuff you guess?

Please, don't try so hard to act stupid. Like any software development
company would ask for code for an obsolete codeline instead of
current-development line. Old codeline had feature freeze and stuff,
so you get into conflict with your very own policies.
IBM can say that old codebase is all we can offer, and Oracle can
accept that compromise, but surely this is not what someone explicitly
*asks* for.

If you know better, explicitly state so. Otherwise → reality check.
And with that I mean applying common sense.

 Oracle had released a newer version by the time IBM submitted their
 code. Fact: this was stated in public at FOSDEM 2011.

So: They asked for *current* codeline, but IBM was so slow to provide
the code (and didn't bother to update it to the 6months later
codeline).
This perfectly proves my point after all.

 At 18:21 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 A
 codeline that is not in feature-freeze. What IBM then delivers is a
 completely different question. Also whether Oracle/Sun asks for it in
 2008, but IBM delivers in 2010, it's obvious that code makes progress.

 CS: Obviously. Nobody is debating that code makes progress.
 I don't know when Oracle asked for it.
 IBM promised to add IAccessible2 in 2007
 IBM joins

Re: [tdf-discuss] mailing list filtering

[Christian Lohmaier]

HI Christophe,

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:

This address is subscribe, so no moderation necessary, no delays
because of manual intervention. So when there is a problem, then it is
on a technical level.

 http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07123.html. I
 have tried to respond to that message several times (5, 8 and 15 July and
 today), but my message never reached the list. My last attempt was this
 morning; the message had the subject line: IAccessible2, IBM, Oracle (was:
 (...) Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice).

this morning is not very precise, there are lots of mails and the
log is big...

But grepping for your address shows

Jul 26 09:43:28 bilbo postfix/smtp[11133]: 8A5231BF225B: host
CAVin.kuleuven.be[134.58.240.1] said: 451 4.7.1
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be: Recipient address rejected:
Greylisting in effect, please come back later (in reply to RCPT TO
command)

So messages to might be delayed by greylisting. (but for this example,
it was only delayed for 6 minutes, so no big deal)

But now what I supposed is the message you sent:

Jul 26 10:58:00 bilbo amavis[13456]: (13456-08) Passed CLEAN,
[134.58.240.130] [134.58.240.75] christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be
- discuss@documentfoundation.org, Message-ID:
6.2.5.6.2.20110726105441.02aba...@esat.kuleuven.be, mail_id:
IIjIjN8XELdt, Hits: -3.092, size: 12933, queued_as: 88D821BF213B,
14498 ms
Jul 26 10:58:00 bilbo postfix/lmtp[7958]: E27BA1BF20D9:
to=discuss@documentfoundation.org, relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024,
delay=31, delays=16/0/0/15, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok,
id=13456-08, from MTA([127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as
88D821BF213B)
Jul 26 10:58:00 bilbo postfix/pipe[10224]: 88D821BF213B:
to=documentfoundation.org--disc...@bilbo.documentfoundation.org,
orig_to=discuss@documentfoundation.org, relay=mlmmj-pymime,
delay=0.23, delays=0.07/0/0/0.16, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered
via mlmmj-pymime service)
Jul 26 10:58:00 bilbo postfix/qmgr[19750]: 88D821BF213B: removed

i.e. it was accepted by the mail-system, and handed over to our
mail-processing tool that in turn pipes the message to the actual
mailinglist.

Now it could be that pymime has a bug that your message triggers, so
please mail the very same message to the list again, with the
postmas...@documentfoundation.org address in cc.

Maybe it is malformed in one way or the other... Needs more investigating.
Of course if the above message is not the correct one, then please
give more details, like the message-id or the exact time when you did
send it.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] A template for the LibreOffice Conference

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Charles, *;

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Charles-H. Schulz
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 I am very serious about that :-) but it does not imply we should not take
 accessibility into account. We've been using a common presentation template
 for each OOoCon and it was fully enforxed.

Nah, at least the conferences I did attend did not enforce it, at
least I have been in talks that used different templates -
independent-community-members usually used the OOo-Con template, but
company people used their company's branded versions.

So I myself would also go from enforcing to strongly suggesting to
use them / asking people to use them.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] News about the world outside LO :)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:17 AM, plino pedl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Surprise, surprise!

 IBM will be announcing tomorrow that it’s donating essentially all its IBM
 Lotus Symphony source code

No, not all, at least it is ambiguous here. Rob, in his initial mail
praises the UI with some positive reviews/rewards it got, but later on
a dev writes it is the c++ part that is the topic here. But the UI
part is java based...

So what exactly the'll contribute is not clear yet. But I doubt it
will be all (as in you can build your own version of symphony).

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 3:59 AM, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote:

 I'm assuming this the item you're talking about:

 It is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, created
 by leading members of the OpenOffice.org Community.

Why not change it to ... currently in the process of being
established ... and link to your blogpost describing the current
status?
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/07/12/status-of-establishing-the-foundation/

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Mark an issue as confirmed

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Regina, *;

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote:

 currently new issues are set to new, so there is no indication, whether an
 issue has been reviewed or not.
 [...]
 Do you think, that would be useful?

I'd rather have the fdo-admins change the default to unconfirmed.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38425

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christoph, *,

On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
 At 23:16 4-6-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 The few times they did contribute, it was code-dumping, far from
 contributing in a collaborative manner. The accessibility stuff that
 Rob just mentioned on the apache list has been promised since 2007 and
 he correctly stated that is is still (considerable) amount of /work/
 needed to get it integrated. They dumped it instead of contributing
 it. To me that's still a difference. The code is against an obsolete
 branch (OOo 1.1.5 codeline (!))

 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Accessibility/IAccessible2_support

 I am surprised nobody has responded to this (since there is/was at least one
 IBM employee on this list...).
 The accessibility contribution that Rob Weir referred to was probably not
 the
 code dump for OpenOffice.org 1.1.5 but a contribution to OpenOffice.org
 3.1

Well, as seen on this list (by Malte's post), apparently there has
been work on a *private* cws that nobody in the community (and yes,
people who are working on private cws are not part of the community
in this regard - they are of course for that part of their work that
happens in public)
All promises IBM is making/has made so far is only lip service for me.
I only believe it after I see the actual contributions from them.
(And as written I don't consider code dumps that need a man-year of
work to get integrated as contribution)

 (if I remember correctly).
 See my comment at
 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apache-openoffice.html#comment-20026.
 (Note: OpenOffice.org 1.1.5 was released in September 2005; IAccessible2
 was released in December 2006
 http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/20773.wss.)

Yes, and that makes it even more pointless to dump the code against
the OOo 1.1.5 codeline.
Not against the version that is in current development, but to a
codeline that is basically done for since two years. (again the
commitment statment is from 2007)

It is all about the preception of IBM's past contributions to OOo -
and those are, despite the massive amount of developers assigned to
the project (35 developers, in the announcement from 2007, the same
figure stated in the incubation list) is nonexistant basically.

Know we know that there has been a behind-the-doors code
contribution of the IA2 stuff (or who knows, maybe Sun/Oracle
engineers did all the work themselves porting the dump to current
codeline, doesn't matter really).
But what else did IBM do in the last 4/5 years?

 At this moment I know no one at Oracle who can or wants to say how much of
 the IAccessible2 implementation will end up in OpenOffice.org 3.4.

Well, then you missed Malte Timmermann's post. (about the status of
iaccessible2), As Rob is strongly against releasing OOo 3.4 with the
blessing of the apache-OOo project (take that discussion to the old
OOo-lists basically (paraphrased)), I doubt there will be a OOo 3.4.0
at all.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3c4df3a2e8.8010...@gmx.com%3E
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3c4df3a100.2060...@gmx.com%3E
(he posted the very same mail twice)

Actually the status with IA2 in OOo is quite good - but not in public
CWSes yet - I am quite sure it will find it's way to Apache OOo.

And until there is a release of Apache-OOo that is comparable in
features/functionality to the current OOo codebase: This will take
quite a bit of time.

Oracle's staff didn't even manage to report the size of current
bugzilla's database as has been requested by the Apache-infrastructure
team yet.  An open question since June 17.  Three weeks and still no
answer to the simple question:
We are looking for more detail about the size of the OOo bugzilla
database. How large is the backup, and what database is being used?
This is the information that Infrastructure needs to know if they have
a preference about our choice.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201106.mbox/%3c097e5bc1-6218-422b-8989-8c082eb0f...@comcast.net%3E

So you can imagine that when it comes on deciding whether to release
OOo 3.4.0 on the old infrastructure will take ages as well.

It's also somewhat ridiculous how long it takes for them to mirror
the hg-repos for merging. But I didn't see any real progress wrt.
licencing issues either. So while they then might have a repo will all
open/interesting cws merged in, still the problems of what files are
exactly covered by the grant remains.
Only progress in this regard is to use apache-batik for svg-import
(OK), and go back to myspell for spellchecking (and thus crippling
spellchecking, nullifying the progress hunspell brought for langauges
with complex compound and flexation rules) - but that are at least
suggestions to move on.
There are many people on the incubator-ooo-dev list, but only few who
have a real clue. And even fewer who are actively driving

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christophe, *,

On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
 At 16:14 5-7-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Christophe Strobbe
 christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
  At 23:16 4-6-2011, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 [...]
 Well, as seen on this list (by Malte's post), apparently there has
 been work on a *private* cws that nobody in the community (and yes,
 people who are working on private cws are not part of the community
 in this regard - they are of course for that part of their work that
 happens in public)
 All promises IBM is making/has made so far is only lip service for me.
 I only believe it after I see the actual contributions from them.
 (And as written I don't consider code dumps that need a man-year of
 work to get integrated as contribution)

 If Oracle asks IBM to implement IAccessible2 on version 3.1 and releases
 OpenOffice.org 3.2 before IBM has submitted the IAccessible2 implementation,
 how is IBM to blame?

Reality check please. 1st of all: What is stuff you know, and what is
stuff you guess?
Do you know that the 3.1 based ia2 dump/work is because Oracle asked for it?
If Oracle asked for it, do you know when Oracle asked for it?
Do you think Oracle really is so stupid to explicitly ask for code
based on an old branch?
If Oracle did ask for it, and IBM did contribute - why wasn't the
cws integrated?
2nd) Obviously you cannot integrate something that is not ready.
Why was it not ready? Because nobody worked on it. Who could do the
work on it? Of course best the developers who know the code, i.e IBM
developers.
And you cannot delay a release for years. (the cws Caolan mentioned in
the blog-comment was created in 2010-05 - while the branch-off for 3.2
already happened 2009-09 more than half a year earlier)

 Between 3.1 and 3.2 the code had changed and had been moved to another
 type of repository.

Again reality check. Oracle surely did ask for the code to be
contributed against the current, actively being-worked-on codeline. A
codeline that is not in feature-freeze. What IBM then delivers is a
completely different question. Also whether Oracle/Sun asks for it in
2008, but IBM delivers in 2010, it's obvious that code makes progress.

 That is the reason for the complex and time-consuming
 integration work that Oracle needed to do for IAccessible2.

NO! Why does it have to be Oracle to do the integration work. Again
one of the points about collaboration. Just uploading a
million-line-codepatch somewhere is not contributing. It is complying
with whatever deals that were signed or to comply with license matters
at best.

 The integration and testing were still in progress when Oracle decided
 to stop investing in OpenOffice.org. As far as I know, that is why
 the IAccessible2 code did not end up in public repositories.

Again this is stupid argumentation. We're talking about a OpenSource
software here after all. And we're not talking about weeks, but years.
We're talking about big announcements to dedicate more than 30
developers to work on the officesuite and collaborate with upstream,
but no results after 4/5 years.
And this further proves my point about questioning IBM's commitment.
Lip service, but no actual work that ends up upstream.
They did not contribute to OOo, but they did drop some code at Oracle.
Again this is not my idea of contributing to the project.

 The contribution to the 1.1.5 codeline is irrelevant because completely
 outdated. I added that note merely as backgound information.

No, it is not irrelevant, because it is the very same situation. Big
announcement we will conribute, we have lots of manpower but no
results. That's the whole point. IBM doesn't have a record of being a
good contributor, the opposite is the case. And to change this, we
don't need another lip-service announcement, but actual code
contribution.
That you can only point at Ia2, but not at other work is further prove
of this topic.

And don't get me wrong, I'm sure that you'll see IBM contributing to
apache-OOo, at least until you can actually build something from
Apache-OOo sources you can ship to the users, but after that I'm
pretty sure that IBM will focus again on its very own Symphony and
only do the necessary stuff to keep their own stuff compatible.

And don't get me wrong²: I'd be happy if IBM proves me wrong.

 If Sun/Oracle engineers state that IBM donated the IAccessible2
 implementation, it is unlikely that this piece of work was done
 by Sun/Oracle.

Again it is not about the Ia2 work itself, but the porting from the
old 1.1.5 codedrop to current codeline.
You apparently don't know any hard facts about this, neither do I. So
while you claim that Oracle did ask IBM for the code ported to the 3.1
codeline, and that IBM then followed this request, I question this
scenario.
Or even if IBM did contribute it against the 3.1 codeline: Why is it
still not integrated? This can only mean that a huge amount

Re: [steering-discuss] SC calls via Mumble or OpenMeetings

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Jonathan, *,

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 29/06/2011 14:22, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
 eagles051...@gmail.com  wrote:
 On 29/06/2011 12:00, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 Username is your own choice. If you got a IRC-nick you're known by,
 just use that.
 [...]
 Ill have to try again i seem to be having issues creating a username and
 password,

There is no password involved. Authentification/Encryption works with
the certificates

 but i guess ill have to create my own certificate or something on
 that no?

Yes, just use the mumble wizard and have it create a certificate for
you. When you start mumble for the first time, it should have prompted
you with a dialog to either import an existing one, or create a
self-signed one. The certificate is used to encrypt the communication,
very similar to https.
The certificate is also used for authentication for special
user-rights (like creating channels, and all .)

If you were not offered the wizards on first launch, you should also
run the audio-setup wizard manually.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] SC calls via Mumble or OpenMeetings

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 The current phone conference infrastructure provides a lot of dial-in
 numbers. It has its drawbacks, like some countries missing and the web
 interface only available in German. However, some other problems are not to
 be fixed with that, like

 * time zone
 * availability of a phone or local dial-in
 * availability of broadband internet

Good thing about mumble is that it doesn't require broadband connection
http://mumble.sourceforge.net/FAQ/English#What_are_the_bandwidth_requirements.3F

With top quality, minimum latency and positional information sent, it
is 133.6 kbit/s including the IP and UDP overhead. With 60 ms
transmission delay, the lowest quality speech and no positional
information, it is 17.4 kbit/s (again with IP and UDP overhead). The
default quality setting uses 58.8 kbit/s.

So even with a modem dial-up, you should be fine.

 Setting up an own Asterisk or FreeSwitch server cannot solve all problems
 either, as we can not get local dial-ins for a good price. It would cost us
 hundreds of EUR per month if we do it totally on our own.

I agree - so the ideal solution would just hook both traditional
phone-lines and mumble together. That would require one system that
can dial in to talkyoo and acts as a bridge to mumble - i.e. a
softphone that listen on both and forwards to both. (Well, depending
on how well echo-cancellation works, one might need two
one-directional systems here.

 So, my take for the basic conferences is to use talkyoo as we do now, and
 try to get more people in by using either Skype,

When you mention Skype, you have the same/worse bandwidth requirements

 or our own Asterisk.
 However, for that to happen, I need *feedback* from those affected by
 missing local dial-in numbers whether they can use Skype, or in which
 country they are, so we can check for dial-in numbers.

For me, it is not just about dial-in numbers. WIth talkyoo system,
there is a vast difference in quality in the participants,
specifically the volume of the various speakers, one very faint, the
other really loud, sometimes lots of background noise,...
mumble has a audio-setup-wizard that helps setting up the microphone
levels, etc. (although it is not trivial to get the system's
microphone settings right on all systems - you must not echo the
microphone directly to the speakers for example - and the default
gnome-mixer-applet doesn't offer a switch for that, so you have to
resort to gnome-alsamixer/another mixer-application to configure it m-
similar problems on Windows (probably depends on hardware and the
corresponding driver-software)
Mumble has the advantage that it also offers visual indication when
someone speaks (red lips = talking, grey lips = user is not
talking) - so its easier to follow a discussion when you don't
recognize people by their voice, and its easier to not talk
simultaneously without noticing (a loud speaker cancelling out a
faint speaker).
Additionally, there is the possibility to have written notices (to
paste URLs and similar)

 My impression is that a lot of people who can dial-in anyways are working on
 the topic, but feedback from the affected people is missing. It doesn't help
 having Mumble, when colleagues from another country cannot join anyways, as
 they have only slow internet.

Well, indeed. That's the real dealbreaker here.

 So, again, *please*, those who cannot join the conferences, but *want* to
 (this is important as well!), *please* give feedback on why and what your
 preferred solution would be.

If you want to try out mumble with someone, don't hesitate to announce
a time when you want to test it - I'm sure there will be someone who
can assist/help by joining the channel (after all you cannot test
bidirectional communication when you're the only person in the room
:-)

 That's for the majority of phone conferences. Of course, there will be some
 special conferences where something like OpenMeetings comes in handy.

I'd not call it conferences.. OpenMeetings is more for presentations,
where one person talks and other people are mainly listening. For that
it provides the whiteboard (i.e. you can show a presentation and draw
on the slides) and also video (but when using those features of course
you need the bandwidth again). It relies on flash, and is much more
difficult to use compared to mumble (and there is no way (at least not
obvious to me) on how to adjust the microphone level, so at least on
my system the level would be way too low, people won't hear me...)

But again I second Florian's question:
Those who are affected by the lack of dial-in numbers provided by
talkyoo - what would be the best alternative in your opinion?
( ) Skype
( ) OpenMeetings
( ) Mumble
( ) neither, need regular landline number
( ) other, please specify ___

Alternatively, you might point out why a given solution is not a valid
alternative (I cannot use xxx 

[tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: The Document Foundation background

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 Mark Wielaard wrote on 2011-06-15 14.34:

 And if possible please also add a News from the TDF Blog widget to the
 frontpage like already on libreoffice.org. Then it would be immediately
 clear that The Document Foundation is a lively and active entity.
 Currently it takes some poking around from the homepage to finally end
 up onhttp://blog.documentfoundation.org/  where all the latest news is.

 Cc'ing the website list, so they can jump in. :-)

Would need someone to adapt the stylesheet for the tdf-theme, but then
it's of course possible. But where on the site would you put it?
A mockup would greatly help.
Or do you suggest to also just put it below the current content like
it is one on www.libreoffice.org?

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Release dates/versions

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:08 AM, plino pedl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can someone tell me if the daily named rc1 will be installed as a Dev or

Daily builds? There are none for 3.3.x, only for 3.4 and master codeline.

 overwrite my Stable 3.3.3RC1?

And hence I don't understand this either. The 3.3.3RC1 is not yet
stable (it probably will be released as stable, but at the moment it
is still RC only)

So when you ask whether installing the 3.3.3rc1 will replace your
installed version of 3.3.2, then the answer is yes.

A release-candidate by definition behaves as it would be a final
version (it has to, since when it it released, the last rc ist only
renamed, no other changes are done).

As for the dailies: When they are called LibO-Dev, they will not
interfere with the stable versions installed.

ciao
Christian

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[tdf-discuss] Code covered by the Oracle grant (was: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sam, *,

please forward this also to the apache-list where I'm not subscribed
(I suggest only Sam does, in order to prevent 50 people forwarding the
very same mail :-D)

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:32 AM, Sam Ruby ru...@apache.org wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Christian Lohmaier
 lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote:

 As far as I know, there is only the intent of Oracle to
 donate it unter the Apache License, but no clear statement has been
 made as to what exact sourcecode this will cover.

 The ASF has a signed software grant with a specific list of source files.

 It's not even clear whether it will be the current codebase or some
 older version IBM is basing their version on.

 It is the codebase on openoffice.org.  The intent is to move the full
 version history.  The mechanics of this have yet to be worked out.

As on the apache list, a link to that list of source files has been
provided, and there have been claims that this list is covering the
whole source, I had a deeper look myself.

1st of all: It doesn't any history-data/mercurial database files, so
how this point is covered is not clear to me at all, but on to my
analysis of the Oracle provided filelist that was made available here:
http://people.apache.org/~rubys/openoffice.files.txt

1st observation: Some filepaths are split. The lines are split
at various line-length, and not at word limits like the dot for the
filename extension or the slash that delimits directorys, but in
middle of the string, see http://libreoffice.pastebin.ca/2075460 for a
patch to fix those

2nd observation: The file is not sorted alphabetically (at least
differs from sort output/what comm tool that is later used expects, so
sort it:
sort openoffice.files.txt  sorted_ooo.lst

In order to do the comparison, clone the current repo
hg clone http://hg.services.openoffice.org/DEV300/

and create a filelist, excluding the repository's data
find DEV300/ -type f -not -path 'DEV300/.hg/*' | cut -c 8- | sort  repo.lst

raw numbers:
wc -l repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst
 69076 repo.lst
 39616 sorted_ooo.lst

So even calling this seems to include the full repo and that even
twice is either with malicious intent, or with no clue. Christian
Lippka really should know better, but had stated this at least twice.
Close to 3 files gone, who cares source seems complete..

Now to interesting numbers:
Files in the Oracle's list, but not in the repo-list (= files most
likely moved by refactoring the code (gbuildification of modules and
similar) = indication of when the snapshot was taken):
comm -1 -3 repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst  |wc -l
$ 455

digging in hg's history shows that the snapshot of the sources must
have been taken before 2011-03-21 - as those files were [re]moved in the
following cws:
276288  2011-03-21  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS dr78
276552  2011-03-29  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS ka102
276583  2011-03-29  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS vcl2gnumake
276711  2011-04-01  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS solaris11
276673  2011-04-01  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS calcvba
276692  2011-04-01  CWS-TOOLING: integrate CWS mav60

So while one can clearly say that those are not part of the sources,
and hence the code is at most in the state of m103 (but of course that
doesn't exclude that the codebase can be older than that) The changes of at
least 27 CWS (+3 masterfix ones) that have been integrated into OOo
code in the meantime are definitely missing.

Files in repo, but not in Oracle's list:
$ comm -2 -3 repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst  |wc -l
29915

sdf files = translation files: Those are not included in either repos,
the sdf files that are in the repo are for testcases/gsicheck, the translations
have been split to a seperate repository
http://hg.services.openoffice.org/master_l10n/DEV300/

So those don't even account to the difference!
$ grep -c sdf$ repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst
repo.lst:10
sorted_ooo.lst:0

Image files = binary files
egrep -c '(bmp|png|gif|jpe?g)$' repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst
repo.lst:12352
sorted_ooo.lst:0

So this is one big chunk, all toolbar icons for the different themes,
cursors, artwork for the installers, etc.

But what are the remaining 17563 files? shell-fu will give a hint:
$ comm -2 -3 repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst  | egrep -v
'(bmp|png|gif|jpe?g)$' | sed -n -e 's/.*\.\([^./]*\)$/\1/p' | sort |
uniq -c | sort -rn | head
  1716 ott
  1329 xml
  1140 xlb
   813 xcu
   749 cfg
   710 csv
   588 txt
   555 h
   472 css
   459 java

OK, the user will not get any templates either, too bad, but the next
ones are interesting. No configuration schemes, no configuration data
either.
Let's have a closer look:
$ comm -2 -3 repo.lst sorted_ooo.lst  | grep xcu$ | awk -F/ '{print
$1}' |sort |uniq -c
32 dictionaries
 4 extensions
   716 filter
 3 lingucomponent
 2 mysqlc
21 odk
16 officecfg
 1 pyuno
 3 scripting
 7 sdext
 5 sfx2
 3 testautomation

Want to load documents? Too bad, Apache won't know about the filters.
Want to save

Re: RE : Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Sam Ruby ru...@apache.org wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote:

 I should think there is probably
 broader commercial or legal reason for Oracle to hold on to the copyright
 such as tax relief or just in case it *might* somehow become valuable.

 Oracle offered to transfer the copyright, and I said that it was
 neither necessary nor required.

I second that. the TDF would have been more than pleased if Oracle
would have re-licensed the code under LGPL+MPL combination (+apache
and whatever). Copyright ownership is not required at all. Neither for
Apache, nor for TDF.

ciao
Christian

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[tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Allen, *,

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Allen Pulsifer pulsi...@openoffice.org wrote:
 [...]
 I don't know what vision IBM has for the project.  I don't know what code
 contribution they are going to make--I'm certain they will make some, but I
 don't know what they will be.  I don't know what contributions members of
 the LibreOffice community will or will not want to make.

Given that they had 35 people working on it according to their press
releases, that was ended up in OOo was  basically nonexistent. As
you've been with the OOo project for a couple of years you can
probably understand that people that were part of OOo project before
switching over to TDF/LibreOffice don't have much trust in IBM's lip
service.

The few times they did contribute, it was code-dumping, far from
contributing in a collaborative manner. The accessibility stuff that
Rob just mentioned on the apache list has been promised since 2007 and
he correctly stated that is is still (considerable) amount of /work/
needed to get it integrated. They dumped it instead of contributing
it. To me that's still a difference. The code is against an obsolete
branch (OOo 1.1.5 codeline (!))
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Accessibility/IAccessible2_support

 I do know this however.  There is currently an open invitation for us to get
 involved.  If we get involved, we can have a say in with direction of the
 project.

Not really, as you first have to surrender to the Apache's licence
terms. And that alone is reason for me not to join the effort.

 We can ensure that direction of the project provides the maximum
 benefit for LibreOffice, which includes any contributions from IBM.
 Basically, we can get IBM working for us.

I really doubt it. What would change for them now, with the permissive
licence, that did prevent them in the last 5 years from contributing?
They (according to their press release) had massive manpower working
on it (35 people), but what ended up in OOo is two code dumps to
ancient codeline, one of which being lotuswordprofilter, the other the
abovementioned accessibility dump.

But before you say: It's not only IBM in the foundation. Then let me
ask: Who else is? Oracle is gone for good. The few  individual
contributers that have enlisted themselves as initial contributers on
the apache wiki are to a big extent non-coder. (Not to say that the
non-code contributors are not important, that's far from being my
point)
I currently find 5 people in that list of whom I'd say the have /some/
idea of the code. And two of those already have a focus on a
side-project/fork of OOo.

So if you ask me who is on the Apache project who is not engaged in
TDF/LO, then the only answer is: IBM.
(But I'm also well aware that the proposal is new, and there might be
more to come, and I'm also aware that to the apache-voting the big
picture doesn't matter, they don't care whether it is considered a
good idea or not. If there are enough people to run the podling and if
IBM can convince them that it is possible to get rid of all the
thirdparty stuff that doesn't comply with the strict licencing terms,
they will approve it as an incubator project)

And I don't really see a point in shifting this perception now that
nobody cares who enlists.
IMHO you only should enlist yourself if you're really convinced that
the Apache Foundation along with its restrictions/limitations and
rules, esp. regarding licencing are a good idea, when you actually
support the move.

If you do, then go ahead and add yourself, I won't question your decision.

The only reason on why the TDF should contribute is to why neooffice
did join go-oo at the time: To make grabbing their code easier. But
that is a very, very weak reason in my opinion.

 So what I would like to see is an many LibreOffice people at the table as
 possible.  If possible, I would like to see LibreOffice people dominating
 the Apache OpenOffice community to get as much out of the project as we can.

What is the point? If it is run by LO people, what is the benefit of
creating another entity instead of letting OOo be what it is (or
better was), and instead focusing only on LibreOffice?

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RE : Re: RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Marvin, *,

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote:

 The Apache Foundation releases software only under the Apache License 2.0.
 Other entities may take ASF-released code and bundle it in products licensed
 under less permissive terms, including proprietary products and copyleft
 products.

The problem is that OOo includes quite a bit of thirdparty stuff, none
of those bein Apache-licensed and thus without a chance of being
included in the apache-project. So very likely the code that hooks
that code up into OOo will be dumped along with those external stuff
and thus it is very unclear what will be covered by the grant, and
what not. As far as I know, there is only the intent of Oracle to
donate it unter the Apache License, but no clear statement has been
made as to what exact sourcecode this will cover.
It's not even clear whether it will be the current codebase or some
older version IBM is basing their version on.

The initial source will consist of a collection of OpenOffice.org
files. is more than vague about this.

And before accusing me of bashing IBM:
I can only draw my conclusions from the very information that is
given. That is ~NULL from Oracle's side (only info is that it is even
more unclear what the situation will be regarding extensions developed
by Sun/Oracle), and a little from IBM, as they're the ones driving the
proposal.
Everyone agrees that there needs to be cleanup regarding the
thirdparty code, to meet the Apache license requirements, not not have
non-apache code around.
And I guess nobody will doubt that IBM will be doing most of this
work, maybe with a little help of Oracle. I can only assume they have
a plan about it. Newcomers will not have enough experience with the
codebase to get this done quickly/in a reasonable timeframe, and the
number of experienced people who have added themselves to the proposal
is still too small to handle without major help from the IBM devs. The
non-code contributers won't help in this task.
Now if you were IBM, would you drop your bridges that you built to
hook up the OOo-code to your product just to cleanup a different
codebase and do all the integration work again?
I doubt that.
Also by their few (as written earlier, I can only remember two)
contributions that were all based on old codelines (and thus caused
much work to integrate into OOo), at least to me it is far from clear
how/with what codebase the project will start and hence what will be
available under the Apache License.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RE : Re: RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Dennis, *;

(sorry to you for mailing twice, I did mean to send it to the list,
and not as pm only)

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote:
 Since the third-party stuff is already integrated into LibreOffice, it 
 doesn't matter whether it passes through the Apache OpenOffice incubator or 
 not.  You have it and you are using it the same way OpenOffice.org was using 
 it.

Yes, the thirdparty stuff by itself doesn't matter, but as I also
wrote: What matters is the code that hooks up this thirdparty.

 What I think is more important is the opportunity the bits that will be under 
 AFL 2.0 provide to The Document Foundation if it is desired to re-license as 
 other than LGPL3+.

What you also miss is the second point I mentioned, namely what
version will that codebase be?
There is no point in having a 3-4 year old codebase. That would be
useless to TDF/LO (useless to the whole community IMHO - but as it is
nowhere stated what the agreement covers..)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Man, how I love fullquotes :-/

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Laurence Jeloudev ljelou...@gmail.com wrote:
 Make a new license agreement for openoffice? With other contributing 
 companies.

Sorry, but what is your point?
my point was that it is in my opionon a stupid idea for LO people to
sign up as contributors to the incubator proposal just to have a say
or now there are no restrictions yet.

Once in Apache, there is no discussion about licences anymore. Apache
only has its own license and has made it pretty clear numerous times
that they won't allow other licenses.

Only Oracle could add another license to the mix, but if everyone
subscribes to the apache-proposal, and thus shows their support for
the apache license, why should Oracle even consider to re-license?

So I absolutely don't udnerstand what you're trying to say, especially
when you write it as a f'up to my posting.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RE : Re: RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sam, *,

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:32 AM, Sam Ruby ru...@apache.org wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Christian Lohmaier
 lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote:
 [...]
 It's not even clear whether it will be the current codebase or some
 older version IBM is basing their version on.

 It is the codebase on openoffice.org.  The intent is to move the full
 version history.  The mechanics of this have yet to be worked out.

Thanks a lot for this important info!

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:35:46AM +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 Only Oracle could add another license to the mix, but if everyone
 subscribes to the apache-proposal, and thus shows their support for
 the apache license, why should Oracle even consider to re-license?

 The horse is out of the barn.  Oracle has submitted a signed software grant to
 the ASF.  Once the process completes, that code becomes available under the
 Apache License 2.0, a *permissive*, attribution-based license.  Oracle cannot
 now impose additional copyleft restrictions by adding a new license to the
 mix.

Of course they could. Nobody hinders them from applying different
licenses to the same code. It cannot take back the Apache License, as
it cannot take back the existing LGPL, but that doesn't mean it is
impossible to add another license.

(but I agree with Jim that this is very, very, very unlikely to happen)

 Once you've granted a permissive license, you can't take it back.

Yes, but that wasn't the point to begin with. (and noone here claimed
that this was possible, and nobody requested to not release the code
under the Apache license either). It was a what would the TDF had
wished for item - in order to really be able to have a LGPL/MPL dual
license, and not only have MPL for stuff that was added after the
split. .
But as it is more or less moot, as the grant apparently applies to the
whole (including current) codebase, it is almost-as-good (in terms of
code-reuse by the TDF/LibreOffice, independent of collaboration with
the OOo-apache-incubator-project)

There have been claims that the TDF demanded impossible things from
Oracle, but a re-licensing to MPL isn't that much different from
re-licensing to Apache-license from my POV.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Java Support to Stay or Not?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Marc-André, *,

2011/5/19 Marc-André Laverdière marc-an...@atc.tcs.com:
 I've read somewhere

If you cannot even remember where you read it, that source is not very
reliable, is it?

 that there is discussion on ditching support for
 Java in LO. Is this true?

No, this is not true. There are no plans whatsoever to drop support for java.

Is there a decision taken the matter?

What is a goal is to reduce the requirement of java for functionality
of shipped-by-default stuff. I.e. remove java-requirement for the
wizards or fulltext search in help.

Just don't believe anything you read at random places in the web.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] desktop integration

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sean, *,

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sean Carlos sean.car...@gmail.com wrote:

 For what its worth, on Fedora 14 64 bit the program icons no longer show up
 in the applications menu.  This is a regression in beta 5 relative to beta
 4.

Did you install the desktop-integration package? (and which one?)

 If someone else confirms this, I'll log it as a bug.

Nope, works fine here

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] desktop integration

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Bernhard, *,

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 2:57 AM, Bernhard Dippold
bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:
 Valentin schrieb:

 I tested today the latest LibreOffice builds (beta 5 of 3.4) and  I saw
 the
 better desktop integration in the Ubuntu-Desktop (10.10). Good work!
 But ... since years there is one thing, that I absolutely don't like. It's
 this gradient on the drop down-Button:
 http://www.pic-upload.de/view-9943211/gradient.png.html

 It's possible to make look the button a bit more nicer? Keep up the good
 work, thank you for all!

 Can you provide a button with a better gradient?

This is not a fixed-color button.

 If so, we could ask the developers to have a look at the code and find the
 relevant string to replace the image (if it is an image - if it's just a
 gradient, we might not be able to modify it easily more than just in the
 colors of the end points).

Not even the colors are hardcoded, but depend on the theme

So this problem is a classical worksforme or notourbug kind of thing.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] mailing list content disappearance

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi e-letter - a realname would be nice...

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:36 PM, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13/05/2011, discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Topics (messages 6130 through 6131):

 [tdf-discuss] Re: Paid Developers
       6130 - Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com
       6131 - ??? m...@marcpare.com

 When can someone improve mailing list behaviour with web mail clients
 like gmail???

Sorry, but what do you mean?
Obviously the mailinglist has no influence whatsoever how a webmail or
regular mailclient behaves.

 Even for this e-mail digest, the reply function results
 in deletion of the original message content, apart from the text shown
 above. This means a text editor has to be used...:(

Sorry, please be more descriptive. That mail (#6131) is this one:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg06225.html
http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg06096.html

As you mentioned gmail: Gmail will not show your own messages as it
will be received by the mailinglist, but only as it leaves gmail,
similarily gmail doesn't properly quote html-messages when replying in
text-only mode (quoting level gets lost). So what is the exact
problem?

ciao
Christian

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[steering-discuss] Re: LibreOffice TSC call minutes, Thur May 12th

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com wrote:
 [...]
 This was the first time when Rainer joined to our call. He does a
 tremendous job with bug triaging and QA. He wants to contact most active
 bugzilla users and coordinate their work. The problem is that we have
 many unconfirmed bugs and incomplete bug reports.

Actually only 30 unconfirmed ones (well, those that use the unconfirmed state).
I don't know who would have the rights to do so, but enforcing
unconfirmed state for non-developer/non-qa people might make sense to
get a better overview.

 Those may be blockers,
 but they have to be confirmed and they have to be reproducible.
 freedesktop bugzilla does not support the NEEDINFO status (we need to
 find a workaround, I guess...)

No, that's not quite correct. OOo had a needmoreinfo keyword, not a
needmoreinfo status - And fdo bugzilla has a NEEDINFO keyword, so
pretty much the same.
The big difference was that only people with special IZ permissions
could promote an issue from unconfirmed state to new state.

fdo bugzilla even has the NEEDINFO bug status - but that rather is the
final resolution after there was no response after a while (like
closing the issue as worksforme or invalid in OOo's IssueZilla)

The first step would be to make use of Unconfirmed state, then
QA-volunteers can direct their efforts to those that have not yet been
reviewed.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Math: There is no

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:26 PM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:

 Bernhard, you must have missed my most recent reply to Christian above. My
 error was *not* in attempting to «reconvert» a hexadecimal representation to
 yet another hexadecimal,

Yes, you did...

 but rather in simply mistaking a decimal
 representation (2204, which represents the same number as the hexdecimal

No - your mistake is to mistake 2204 as decimal.

 089c), found as I explicitly noted, on p 1 of the Unicode table, as being
 that of the Unicode glyph (∄) in question, whereas it codes for an entirely
 different glyph.

But 2204 /is/ the (hex)representation of ∄

∄ = 2204₁₆ (hex) = 8708₁₀ (decimal)

but well, I guess that's clear now, I don't really know why I did
reply... Sorry for the noise.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Math: There is no

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Olivier, *,

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Olivier Hallot
olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Em 04-05-2011 13:11, M Henri Day escreveu:
 2011/5/4 Olivier Hallotolivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org

 So, if this symbol get implemented in Opensymbol, it will be trivial to
 make it show in the Element window

Sure, but it won't be compatibility-foolproof - but in the meantime
you can add the symbol manually and use it by keyword.

 [insert it by character code]

 Yes, in a Mandriva system as well, although I run out of fingers to type
 such key combination!!

ctrl+shift+u, then release those, type the unicode hexcode, end input
with enter - no need to keep ctrl+shit+u pressed all the time.

 Does not work in Windows...

No wonder as it's GTK's input-method feature, not provided by LO/OOo.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Math: There is no

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 8:19 PM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/5/4 Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com
 [...]
 (for me at least), it is not the hex code, but rather the decimal code that
 must be used to import the glyph ; thus entering «2204» (without the
 quotation marks) in the tool gives me the desired ∄, whereas entering
 «089c»gives me a glyph I cannot read ࢜ with the fonts I have installed on

Nope - that's double conversion you're doing here.. 2204 is already
hex value. that in decimal would be 8708

While probably not so useful for this case, you can also modify
windows keyboard layouts to have access to more key-combinations.

http://microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 12:13 AM, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
 cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this

 You do realize that the organization that puts up the donation link
 has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and
 each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each
 country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face
 possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective
 political entity in which they failed to register, don't you?

No, and I'd be really surprised if this was true. But you surely have
some documents to prove that claim, don't you?

(and when I wrote donation above, it should be clear that I don't mean
tax-decountability or other special stuff).

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Augistine, *,

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
 costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
 to take specific steps to block ads from that site).

But the point was about listing forums as officially approved or
somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list
ads.

It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords
or even worse graphical ads.
Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the
forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer.

compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/

I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to
link the second one as approved forum because of the ads.
(Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before)

And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you
got adblock installed. The other visitors that follow links from the
lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads.

So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
(sponsored by is OK). That is my POV.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Drew, *,

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote:
 On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 [...]
 In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
 right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
 do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
 to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
 is covered.

I do see a difference, It is not about that they get money, it is
/how/ the money is collected. It is the impression that the user will
get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
is not an optional thing.

 What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
 In or Out?

I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your
adblocker?)

It is a definite Out. it has animated, blinking banner-style adds.
That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the
left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much.

 So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
 webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
 (sponsored by is OK). That is my POV.

 Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.

Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your
server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads.

After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, and it is not like
there would be a lack of them and we have to beg people to set up yet
another one. (IMHO there are already too many of them)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins hamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:
 On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote:

 There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could
 have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words.

 Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and
 that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words.

 http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml

Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but
needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form,
different times,) And of course rarely it is also wiser to not
accept a word if it is likely that it was not the intended one (but
then this overlaps with the functionality of a grammar checker)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 2:30 PM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 We can discuss up to the end of the time if forums are better or worse
 than mailing lists. We can discuss about why people do not use better
 communication methods (whichever those methods are) or do not RTFM.

 We can discuss everything, but there is a clear fact that cannot be denied:

 English community forums have near 40500 registered users
 Spanish community forums have near 5000 registered users
 French community forums have near 17100 registered users

Again: The point is not forum or not. The point is: Why the heck do
you want *yet another* forum.

Those users above will not all register to an additional forum - why
should they?

Why should we split the knowledge of those on purpose?

And the one on services.openoffice.org is not the only one either.

There are already enough forum solutions. If you want a dedicated
LibreOffice one, ask the maintainers of that forum to open a
LibreOffice category or something (but I don't think this is
necessary, as functionality is not that much different yet)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Steve, *,

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Steve Edmonds
steve.edmo...@ptglobal.com wrote:
 How was the session on triage.

Failure basically - (or also bad timing, as 3.4beta has not been
available, and when it was, it turned out that it wasn't running /
there were big problems installing it, so people stayed away)

But that doesn't mean of course that it was in vain, just means that
it can only get better next time :-)

(and this time there were less than 20 unconfirmed bugs anyway, so it
doesn't hurt much to not have lots of/any participants)

 I suggest a latest working release
 instead of a beta, I cannot afford my LO not to work as I need it every
 day and are unsure if I can install a beta and a release copy at the
 same time. I do not want to take the risk.

Yes, I agree - fur the (expanded) purpose of verifying whether
resolved fixed issues are actually working in the release, there
should be a RC at least (or a version that can be installed alongside
the stable version without dirty tricks.

But of course it is always hard to tell why people did not show up...

For the next time, we must make sure that all people do know about it.
I'm not sure whether people did read the announcements/were aware of
it, so next time we should put a big note on the homepage and on the
wiki, then this aspect is out of the question.

Or maybe people did join, waited a little and then left again without
writing a word, because the channel itself was silent. So maybe a
dedicated people being rolemodels might help. Or maybe give an
IRC-Talk as introduction. (There were quite a few in the
OpenOffice.org project, that I enjoyed very much, but unfortunately
this all died when the person driving it (making a schedule, asking
people to give a talk...) vanished)

 I have been confirming some bugs, but the process is not clear.

So lets start with you - why haven't you been around on IRC? (Or if
you were around: why didn't you ask on IRC to be precise)

 The wiki
 page http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugTriage says to add a comment
 to state confirmed. There is no way to search for unconfirmed.

Oh, there is - and I don't remember seeing a question on the IRC
channel regarding this.

On the (advanced) Search choose LibreOffice as product, and
unconfirmed as status, leave everything else blank (unless you want
to restrict the search further)

 The
 status can not be changed to unconfirmed or confirmed or VERIFIED. The
 keywords cannot be set CONFIRMED. [...]

Ah, there's the problem - you need to use the advanced search form.

Those kind of questions would be welcome in a QA-session on IRC

Also, in the message you did fullquote, there is a link already that
shows the unconfirmed issues only:

 On 11/03/11 22:43, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:

 I want to push interest in bug confirming.
 Currently we have lots of bugs with status UNOCNFORMED, waiting for
 confirmation:

 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advancedbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDproduct=LibreOffice

You can use that link of course as well - that is exactly what you get
when you just select LibreOffice as product and UNCONFIRMED as
status and leave everything else untouched.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Get and appove: recommended Soundfile pronouncing LibreOffice

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 4:26 PM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/4/1 dionysien jean-francois.bour...@univ-paris8.fr

 Hi all

 We must keep in mind that languages vary enormously with respect non only
 to
 their available vowels and consonants, but also to their possible
 syllables.

 The component words of LibreOffice, though quite common international
 words,
 have already diverging pronounciations wordwide.
 We already know that in Japanese  a vowel will HAVE to be inserted between
 B
 and R, and probably also at the end, just because the syllabic pattern of
 Japanese commands it. And that is right so, even if the phonetic
 [libureofisu] differs from [librofis]

Sure, but that doesn't mean you explicitly voice those vowels.
(and of course that doesn't mean you cannot pronounce it differently
to what you write)
A machine saying libreoffice mimicing the intended french/english:

http://tts.imtranslator.net/FKTh

 Agree, Jean François ; moreover, not only does the syllabic pattern of
 Japanese necessitate the insertion of a vowel or vowels in consonant
 clusters, but the same imperative holds true to an even greater degree in
 (standard) Chinese. Thus it is inevitable that the term «LibreOffice» will
 be pronounced differently from land to land, language to language, dialect
 to dialect.

Sure, but if people want some guidelines (or better hints on what the
intended sounding ist), why not provide them with one? If you say
libre as in the french word libre = free and the english office
then people might be as smart as before, as they don't necessarily
have a clue on how french is pronunced, etc.

Esp. for Japanese using foreign words in japanalized pronounciation
is nothing new..

 As the same time, the concerns of posters who wonder how it can
 be pronounced in their respective languages should not be ignored. Why not
 post mp3 files with pronunciations by tdf developers from various countries
 which could help in the construction of standards for the many languages in
 which, hopefully, LibreOffice will employed. Friedrich's German-lnguage
 version is a good example

nitpickOh, it is not German language :-) it is the french/english
version spoken by a German/nitpick

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:29 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 On 03/10/2011 05:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:17 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 On 03/09/2011 06:16 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 [...]
 to share your expertise with us, without calling people stupid or
 ignorant, come back  feel free to comment.

 They /are/ stupid, as they don't bother to read instructions. No
 excuse at all for this.
 They might be very intelligent otherwise, but when it comes to
 unsubscribing, they're too ignorant.

 Really? I suppose that you/we could dig up the archives and take a look.
 I reckon that in the majority of cases the issue is with users that are
 not experienced with mail lists.

So what? That explains why people don't read instructions they even
get with *every* mail?
It is not a matter of being experienced with lists or not. It only
requires knowing how to read.

 But then again, when you have a broken
 system that: 1) allows unsubscribed users to begin with,

You still fail to describe why this is a broken system.

 and 2) have a
 link on your (OOo) support page that simply states:
 [...]
 You need to subscribe to the list first before you can post a question.

Yes, this is written so that people register in te first place. And
when you subscribe, you the unsubscribing instructions right away.

 However that doesn't seem to be that case, does it? Unsubscribed users
 are (as in the OOo case) are posting away on the lists.

You make it sound like those would send tenths of messages while not
being subscribed. If this is the case, then it's the moderator's
fault. (well, if they don't care moderating those its their decision,
but of course when one person keeps posting while not being
subscribed, the moderator should either ask that person to subscribe,
or add that person to the allowed posters list (on mlmmj this would be
the same as a nomail subscription, i.e. you don't receive mail from
the list, but are allowed to post nevertheless.

 /NEVER EVER/ has there been a technical problem with unsubscribing. It

 Really? I think that you are mistaken. There are multiple posts from
 long time OOo users (that can read) that have had issues with
 unsubscribing.

Again. what were the technical reasons? Show me. I'm sure it always
boils down to the person not *reading* the mailfooter, the
instructions that are part of /every/ mail.

Again the only problems are not understanding english (doesn't apply
to the english user list), the confirmation mail of the list being
treated as spam and using the wrong mail-address, i.e. trying to
unsubscribe an address that isn't subscribed to begin with.

 No disputing that you'll get those for the very reasons I've mentioned.
 So what are the plans to prevent that happening on the LO lists?

*Nothing* can prevent stupidity. You claimed a direct unsubscribe link
(instead of the get-instruction ones the LibO list have now) would
prevent complaints, and you referred to the OOo project in this
regard. And my response is: This just doesn't work, you cannot use
common sense when you have to deal with a huge crowd. There are always
jerks. Even when 99% don't have any problem whatsoever, the remaining
1% will complain even louder, no matter what you do.

 And I'd ask again: you have experience on the OOo user list?

Show me concrete examples please. I'd be very, very, very surprised if
the OOo users list should be any different from the tenths of other
lists.

 Really? Perhaps you'd care to rethink that. When you have a link on the
 support page that hooks inexperienced users up to a list you'll
 experience the problem whether they speak english or not. See the
 mention of the LO help info above.

No, I definitely don't rethink that. The problem is (and will *always*
be people too ignorant/lazy/stupid to read the instructions.

Mailing lists use double-opt-in (and double-opt-out) for a reason.
*NO* user will be subscribed (and thus might get tons of messages from
the list) without completing the subscription process.
This process requires sending an explicit mail to the subscription
address. This address has no other form than the ubsubscribe address.
When you manage to send a mail to the subscription address, then
you'll manage to send one to the unsubscribe address (and no matter
how often Florian mentions problems with gmail and the + in the
address: There is no such problem. I absolutely have no clue where
Florian did get that idea from).

Also included with that mail are instructions on how to unsubscribe.
With the direct address. So how can you continue to claim that the
problem would not be people are not reading instructions.

Yes, the one mail you get might be forgotten after a while, but still,
*every* mail to the list has instructions in the footer. Again: How
can you continue to state that the people's inability (or better
unwillingness, ignorance, stupidity) to read the mail that bothers
them so match is to account for their problem

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:17 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 On 03/09/2011 06:16 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
 ...
 And you mentioned that one could have learned from OOo lists:
 Ha, that is a good one. The OOo lists have explicit unsubscribe
 instructions in *every* footer, but still people complain about not
 knowing to unsubscribe. So having that in the footer will not help *at
 all*

 And you have experience on the OOo user list?

The OOo user list is not the only list in the OOo project.

. When you think you are qualified
 to share your expertise with us, without calling people stupid or
 ignorant, come back  feel free to comment.

They /are/ stupid, as they don't bother to read instructions. No
excuse at all for this.
They might be very intelligent otherwise, but when it comes to
unsubscribing, they're too ignorant.

/NEVER EVER/ has there been a technical problem with unsubscribing. It
was *always* the user being too stupid to either mail the unubscribe
address in the first place (they instead write stuff like STOP THIS,
I DON'T WANT ANY MORE MAILS!!!, I'LL SUE YOU), or they're too
dumb/stupid/ignorant to read the automatic reply asking for
confirmation (i.e. another reply).
The one situation where unsubscribing is difficult is when the reply
asking for confirmation to unsubscribe is flagged as spam and thus not
sorted to the user's inbox, but then again that's not the fault of the
list-management.

They are stupid/ignorant because they did receive an introductional
mail with the various commands to unsubscribe or get help when they
did subscribe. They throw away that information without reading it.
And instead of asking nicely, they immediately start shouting on the
list. I call this stupid and/or ignorant.

The /only/ exception to this rule is
* People not speaking english, those are excused. (OTOH they managed
to subscribe to the list nevertheless, and that works the same way as
unsubscribing would)

Thinking of it, there's another exception: People trying to
unsubscribe with an address they're not subscribed with, but those
usually ask nicely before complaining/asking for help in a civilized
manner.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Mail List issues

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 4:05 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 [...]
 I'm not versed on mailman, so I don't know the answer. However, the
 current issue of mail list subscribers not being able to
 subscribe/unsubscribe/modify user settings/etc in mlmmj as they can in
 mailman is an issue. And it will likely be more of an issue as the
 number of subscribers to the list(s) grow.

No. It is always people too ignorant about the mails they get. Instead
of actually reading, the skip that part and assume they know
everything already.

 1. Why are unsubscribed posts even allowed? It would seem that folks
 would have learned from the OOo list history.

Excuse me? What is wrong with allowing non-subscribers messages? And
what would you have learned from OOo list history?

After all it is a setting whether there is a moderator or not. And
even then the moderator has the choice whether to approve the message
or not. When the moderator doesn't approve it, it is not allowed.
And subscribers-only lists are of course possible.


 2. Why are multiple moderators necessary?

Again: Excuse me‽ It is not necessary to have multiple moderators.

 If it's to get some poor soul
 to sort  reject spam, then there are automated tools to do that instead.

No. It is not just rejecting spam. It is allowing non-subscribers to
post. That's completely different.

 3. Why are we getting posts on the user  other lists using
 Mlmmj — Mailing List Management Made Joyful:
 http://mlmmj.org/
 that the user can't unsubscribe, or can't set nomail?

Because they are stupid and don't follow instructions. Yes, that's
mostly the case.

 4. Why is it necesary to send an email for unsubscribe instructions?

Because of 3, because there are digest and non-digest subscriptions,
there are I'm subscribed, but I don't want to get mail
subscriptions. You cannot put links for all of those into the footer.

 
 When I subscribed I received the following:

 ...
 From: discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 [...]
 To unsubscribe send a message to:

 discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org


So here you got your answer why people are unable to unsubscribe,
they are just not reading the mails they get, they don't follow the
instructions.

And you mentioned that one could have learned from OOo lists:
Ha, that is a good one. The OOo lists have explicit unsubscribe
instructions in *every* footer, but still people complain about not
knowing to unsubscribe. So having that in the footer will not help *at
all*

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Libreoffice for Mac

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Olav Dahlum odah...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 04/03/11 13:14, Laurence Jeloudev wrote:
 Will libreoffice be supported for future os s on the Mac?

 Etc Mac Osx lion?

 As far as I know, it's built on Tiger, but I use the latest Snow Leopard
 here.

No, it is not necessarily built on Tiger - it is built against the
10.4u SDK, to assure that it will run on Tiger as the minimum version
requirement.

This also means that it doesn't use any functionality that is only
available on later versions (as this would require duplicating stuff,
once for 10.4, and once for the new version, and manpower is
limited..)

So if new version of Mac OS X can run applications that run on Mac OS
X Tiger, then LO will also run on Lion (or whatever the name).

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Unable to use SCIM to import CJK languages into LibreOffice on 64-bit Ubuntu 10.10

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Henri,

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:18 AM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/2/21 NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net
 On 02/20/2011 07:39 AM, M Henri Day wrote:
 The thing that surprised me with respect
 to Christian's advice above to set SCIM as my «global default» was that I
 thought I had already  done so ; i e, I had edited my profile under /etc by
 adding the following :
 # SCIM
 export XMODIFIERS='@im=SCIM'
 export GTK_IM_MODULE=scim
 export XIM_PROGRAM=scim -d
 export QT_IM_MODULE=scim
 scim -d

The profile is only used for interactive/login shells, i.e. when you
open a terminal and launch LO/OOo from there it is applied, but when
running it from the menu it is not used at all.

 What next ?...

As mentioned earlier: Modify the launchers (the different soffice
scripts you already cited - those are shell scripts that setup some
environment variables and then launch the binary)

Or add it to your display-manager's set of default environment variables.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Unable to use SCIM to import CJK languages into LibreOffice on 64-bit Ubuntu 10.10

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Peter,

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org wrote:
 On 02/21/2011 04:18 PM, M Henri Day wrote:

 SCIM is AFAIK really outdated.

SCIM works fine, worked fine for the past years.

 IBus is certainly the better choice.

There have been so many better choices already that really fucked
up. pulseaudio (now, after years of betterness its becoming to be
usable, i.e. supported by the user-facing stuff), the better,
improved Mail-merge wizard in OOo/LO, device-kit power (that is too
stupid to recognize battery/AC plug status, a stuff that both acpi and
hal don't have any problem with, better gdm that in turn means loosing
the fast-user-switch applet, etc.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Unable to use SCIM to import CJK languages into LibreOffice on 64-bit Ubuntu 10.10

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Henri, *,

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:39 PM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:
 Same problem, of course, when using OOo ; I'm using the latest
 (Swedish) 3.3 version in both cases. SCIM works fine with other applications
 on Ubuntu, like the gedit text editor or Gmail's compose.

As OOo/LO doesn't support GTK's input method switching on the fly (you
cannot choose between the different input methods by opening the
context-menu), you need to enable scim before launching OOo/LO -
either by setting it as your global default (i.e. default not GTK
input method, but scim), or by setting
GTK_IM_MODULE=scim just for OOo/LO

Either add it to the soffice startup script, or launch it manually
from the commandline.

(GTK_IM_MODULE=scim soffice)

Note that it has to be completely shut down, otherwise it will just
reuse an existing session and not apply the change.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] MacOS X install: use native packaging which can be installed without user confirmation?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:02 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@illinois.edu wrote:
 Is there some way to install LibreOffice and its language packs completely
 from the command line?

the Installation of languagepacks on mac consists of extracting a
tarball included within the dmg - the GUI is only there to find the
installation location, ask for admin privileges if necessary and in
order not to have to use the commandline..

But as admin, asking for a way using the commandline, mount the dmg,
then just extract the tarball in the LO installation directory (tar -C
installation location -xjf langpackcontentdir/tarball.tar.bz2),
then umount/detach the languagepack.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Oracle Contributor Agreement and LibreOffice contributions

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christophe,

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:

 1. Now imagine that I contribute code to LibreOffice and the contribution is
 accepted. Is it then still acceptable (from a copyright point of view) to
 sign the Oracle Contributor Agreement and submit the same code to
 OpenOffice.org?

Sure - also the other way round is possible, first contribute to OOo
and then commit the same code to LO - with the joint copyright
assignment you don't loose your own rights, you are free to submit
your code under whatever licence terms you please.

 2. Conversely, if I sign the Oracle Contributor Agreement and submit code
 (and it gets accepted, otherwise the copyright reverts to me),

You never loose the copyright, you just assign the same rights you
have on your code to Oracle as well, additionally.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] relocating mailing lists at libreoffice.org?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Hm, seems the search doesn't work. It's here:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/website@libreoffice.org/msg02999.html

well, it does work - you just need to give it a chance to receive and
index it :-)
there was a increase in processing time/latency, so it switched to
batch-processing mode.
http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#speed

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Michael Wheatland
mich...@wheatland.com.au wrote:

 Your average end user
 will likely never search through mailing list threads,

The average end user will not search web-forums either.

My personal experience with forums is that they are useless for
technical, more complex questions, as most of the times it is clueless
people giving advice to other clueless people. Unless you're looking
for something obvious, most of the time a thread just lingers around
unanswered at all, or the one with the problem writes something like
Oh, solved my problem, can be closed and never bothered to state how
that person actually solved the problem. Or they are full of useless
suggestions that are not even covering the topic.
Again, my typical searches may be more challenging than those from
the average user, but I just hate all the noise that is in forums. I
only use one forum - for a well-seperated hobby. But those forums are
dedicated and exceptional in its quality (mainly to the few users it
has) - I used another one, but as the product is covered ran out of
production, it is idling along.
But I never use forums for software to to the lack of quality of the
answers therein.

 If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a
 dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and
 usability,

That's what I've been saying from the very start..

 What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust
 building and familiarity? What system would we use?

The ones that already exist. I absolutely don't see a reason for
creating yet another one. I think people agree on that one at least.

(and to avoid confusion: No, I don't consider nabble as a forum. Why I
personally don't like its's interface, I have no problem with
integrating it to the site as it seems technically easy to do)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] libreoffice.org e-mail accounts

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

I'll only give short feedback on the suggested names

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 My plan is actually to have something like

        volunteer.nickn...@libreofficecommunity.org

+1 (long, but fits)

 or
        volunteer.nickn...@libreofficemail.org

-1 (sounds like it would be a webmail service like gmail, gmx, web.de, )

 or
        volunteer.nickn...@libreofficevolunteers.org

-1 (I just prefer the community one - with volunteer there is a
(slight) distinction  between community members that are paid by
someone, and those who only spend their spare time - at lest in my
brain :-)))

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Download libreoffice button in new LibreOffice website

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Jan, *,

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Jan Parttimaa jan.partti...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just wondering how can I add new 'download LibreOffice 3.3' button
 in finnish site? (text on button will be in finnish)

use the source :-)

a id=DownloadButton title=Click here to download LibreOffice now!
href=/download/Download LibreOffice 3.3/a

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums bi-directionally cooperating with extant mailing lists?

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:52 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens
j...@forestfield.org wrote:
 RGB ES wrote:

 https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/forums/

The forum  module on the website is meant for
user-registration/user-profile management.

 Will the forums be bi-directional where forum posts are echoed on the
 appropriate mailing list in a non-thread-breaking way and vice versa?

Nabble provides such an interface - currently it is being looked how
to incorporate it into the libreoffice.org website, until this is
down, you can reach it via
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/
There you'll find the LO mailinglists.

 It
 would be nice to not have to go to two separate places (mailing lists and
 the new forums) to read what's going on.

See above, the forums are not meant to be used (that's why there are
no acutal forums, and the page is not linked.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Sigrid Carrera
sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com wrote:

  PS: If I have written complete nonsense, then I'm sure, that one of
 the founders / administrators will correct me. ;)

No, your explanation was totally correct - the forum is only meant to
allow people to create an account to work on the website and to manage
their profile. Using the forum module just was easier than to write
user-login and user-profile management pages myself.

The only thing I could imagine using it would be to discuss
silverstripe/website specific problems, but then again: I personally
prefer the mailinglists.

For user support, the existing, dedicated forums should be used.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Decisions about libreoffice.org English main site management

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *,

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:33 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:

 I'd like to suggest that there should be an editing team officially appointed:

An editing team is a good idea, however

 - one *English NL* executive editor (with publishing/admin powers),

one is not enough, as one might be ill/on vacation, etc.

Also it doesn't quite fit in the community idea

 - Charles Schulz, Florian Effenberger and Italo Vignoli as managing
 editors (with publishing/admin powers).

I'd rather have more of managing editors - not sure whether there
needs to be a dedicate executive editor position, but rather a couple
of managing editors
But same as above, the list is too short, esp. as those people are
heavily involved in other areas.

To kick-start it, it might be enough, but it should quickly be
expanded to include other people who have contributed in a reasonable
fashion/have proven that they are capable of the task.

 - one person from Design, Christoph Noack, with author powers, to
 consult with about buttons and images. I don't otherwise see the
 Design team playing much of a role in the running of the website,
 beyond ensuring compliance with the graphic charter (which is
 principally imposed by the theme).

-1 Especially in terms of design, artworkt, etc. you cannot have
enough contributors.

Having one peer contact: Yes, this is desireable (i.e. one who
forwards the requests of the website team and reports back the results
of the design team).
As it is hard enough to get artwork to put up on the site, you
shouldn't artificially limit the amount of possible contributors by
only having one person with powers.

 - one or two technical administrators: Christian Lohmaier and Erich
 Christian (with admin powers). My suggestion would be that they do
 limit themselves to *technical* administration alone, without any
 interest in the content side (this is what they currently do with the
 other NL sites).

This should be no problem, as at least we two have other areas to work
with as well :-)
However I surely have an interest in the content part, since the
content in the end determines what features to add to the site, etc.
Focus surely is on the technical part.

 - one contributors team, principally of English NL speakers (each
 member with author powers).

Yes, success or failure all depends on the contributors.

 IMHO, if you organize things like this, you will have a tool that is
 efficiently run and that will provide TDF with the most-effective
 marketing platform.

 If you allow the site to be run in a chaotic, uncontrolled manner, I
 think you'll lose a lot of the benefit it could otherwise bring the
 foundation.

Well, I somewhat disagree here. I guess the biggest problem wrt the
english site is/was that there has not been an english native-lang
project within the OOo-project, thus there was no group like for
example in the french and german NL-projects that were already
familiar with working together on website content and familiar with
collaborating in an opensource project.

English content on the OOo website has been created by lots of
different people, none being in an english project, over a rather
long period of time.
The OOo website redesign was a lengthy process, but involved a lot of
people (which was a good thing). I think it is worth to get back to
that working style, although it sometimes introduces unnecessary
delays or lengthy discussions - we won't have the time pressure
anymore.

 In any case, may I encourage you to take some clear decisions about
 this over the next few days?

+1 for having a dedicated Publisher/Reviewer group for proofreading
the submissions, dealing as contact-point for new contributors, but
-1 for limiting that group to such a small group of people, esp. you
definitely need to involve design/artwork more.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: Decisions about libreoffice.org English main site management

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *,

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:12 PM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:

 To do that job, I would ask - for a period of 4 months, subsequently
 renewable on condition of the SC's approval - for complete authority
 and final veto on all content on the libreoffice.org website.

I have to agree with the others that I don't like this way of handling
the situation.

I'm rather with Michael: Whose who do the work have the say anyway.

 I want
 to be considered *the boss* of the libreoffice.org website, and my
 decisions would only be overridden by a majority vote of SC members.
 Anything short of that, my decision wins.

I'd rather prefer if that would not be needed in the first place -
being the boss because one is the person who does the work gives me a
better feeling than I'm the boss because that's written on my
nametag

 This would give me the necessary authority to try some imaginative and
 ambitious plans that I will put to Marketing.

Well - in that case I even more have to say -1
If you're the only one to think your plans are great (and in only this
case you'd need to have Boss-powers), then I'd rather not follow
that plan. If other people agree, then you're the boss because you're
driving things forward.

 I would ask for the title of Executive editor of the libreoffice.org
 website. The only reason I have for asking for this title is that it
 gives me a handle to use in relations with outside parties, such as
 the press.

Regarding representing the TDF/the project to the press, others have
responded already.

 [...]
 What do you say, guys? ;-) Can we try this experiment and see what it 
 produces?

I'd say now (but I'm no SC member) - the goals of the TDF are to drive
community collaboration in the end, not one party can do as they
please.
Experience, and actual contribution/work done should weigh more than a
title. That is nothing wrong with giving you a title Executive
editor - but the I can veto whatever I want part is what I don't
agree with. I'm sure you wouldn't abuse that power, but is the message
it signals to the outside, the principle behind it that doesn't please
me.

The community should be ruled based on rationale decisions, on
discussions where people can provide input, etc (and that quality of
the opinion/person behind it weighs more than just quantity of votes).
Having a mini-dictatorship is OK for special cases, but is not a
long-term situation.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] A better idea for a download package.

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christophe, *,

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Christophe Strobbe
christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
 At 21:03 30/11/2010, Charles Marcus wrote:

 (...)

 The current size problem as compared to OOo is because all of the
 language packs are included... and this situation is only temporary
 until storage is no longer an issue...

 After all the negative comments on the download size in this old thread, I
 would like to say something positive: as a developer of
 LibreOffice/OpenOffice.org extensions, I find the availability of language
 packs in the download excellent: it enables me to switch between interface
 languages in LibreOffice without the need to install several language
 versions of the same office suite.

Well - installing language packs has exactly the same effect. You
would have to download and install a couple of individual packages,
but the point of language packs is that it is /not/ a complete copy of
the same office suite, but just the corresponding language-files.
The problem with windows is that the Windows installer doesn't offer
the choice (at installtime, yes), but when downloading you have to get
all, and then you have to seperately download the help-files anyway,
so nothing is gained compared to english installer+languagepack.

So yes: Languagepacks are great. The problem is that there are none
for windows...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Website status

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *;

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 12:25 PM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:
 On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 18:33, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 It's a .png. I did all the other screenshots as high-quality .jpg
 files because they are half to a third of the size, but the site's
 lead admin prefers .png because of resizing considerations.

That was a misunderstanding then. I wrote for origininal size
screenshots, png is almost everytime superior to jpeg. But the more
you resize, the more fuzz is added to the image, jpeg then provides
better compression.
So to summarize:
* png for real-size screenshots, never jpeg (unless the screenshots
shows draw showing a photograph or similar)
* jpeg is OK for thumbnails, resized screenshots

 Maybe you're right. We'll have a think about it over Christmas,
 because it looks like the site won't roll out until January.

Ho ho ho :-) Santa has a present for you :-) - site is live - yay :-)

 [...]

Merry Christmas to everyone :-)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice rc2 torrent download?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Fi Frank, *,

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Frank Esposito frankespos...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is there a torrent download for the latest release candidate?

Sure -
http://tracker.documentfoundation.org:6969/index.html?search=rc2

(just append .torrent to any http://download.documentfoundation.org
download link)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Website status

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 1:05 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 05:38, Bernhard Dippold
 bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:

Twitter and blog in
 the scrolling area are ok, but I think a news area is more important
 than those tow.

 Christian, is there a dedicated news/blogging module for SilverStripe?

Well - there is a blog module, yes (meant for providing blogs
yourself), and regarding news: You can of course add a news section as
well. Similar to how the FAQ-items are automatically collected, one
can collect news items.
And you can create a area on the page that shows the X latest news entries.

The basics on how to do it are laid out in the basic tutorials of silverstripe
http://doc.silverstripe.org/tutorial:2-extending-a-basic-site

If it is just about providing an RSS feed: You can turn pretty much
everything into a RSS feed with silverstripe...

The real questions is: Do we want to add news via the CMS or not.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Website status

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:35 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 05:38, Bernhard Dippold
 bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:
 [...]
 IMHO, I would scrap the current theme and make a new one. I've never
 done a SilverStripe theme before, but once you've hacked themes for a
 couple of CMS's, you can hack them for another.

You don't hack a theme for silverstripe, you create a css for nicely
created HTML :-))

The cms specific parts should be reduced to a minimum, as I think the
html it creates is semantic enough, and not layout-dependent :-)

 I bet it would only
 take me a few days. If one of you SilverSite CSS/theming gurus helped
 out, I bet we could do it even quicker...

Well, I wouldn't tackle this.
Feedback from the marketing/design/branding front is rather sparse, as
very few people have time these days, so I fear that it ends up like
Nice, you got a theme, but unfortunately it doesn't match our vision
for future branding or similar

I personally don't like the libreofficeaustralia theme as it is now.
Header much too high, language selection doesn't work (something
opens, but that something is covered almost entirely by grey
background, no selection possioble, etc.
Visit it with german locale and you're locked out basically, as it
then also doesn't even offer navigation, etc. So from first looks:
Nah, needs work.

 Florian, Christian, if you gave me access to SSH/FTP into
 http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/ then I could set a new theme up there

No need to have access, the theme is in git:
https://github.com/tdf/cms-themes you can download a zip or tar.gz
there using the download button and you can create an export of the
site using
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/StaticExporter/export?baseurl=relative
This will get you a html.tar.gz  - copy the cms-themes folder of the
git download into the html folder as html/themes

Then hack around. Don't bother about the silvertsripe templates, just
add the html you wish there would be, I can then adapt the templates.
The templates are included in the cms-themes as well, so feel free to
have a look, it needs some refactoring anyway, (move common parts to
includes, do less duplication), but they are pretty straightforward in
either case.
http://doc.silverstripe.org/templates

 What do you think, guys?

See above. A redesign will very likely have to wait until people are
able to provide input. The discussion on how the navigation should
look for example didn't receive much feedback yet, so whatever you
would do, it would be on a very fragile basis.

 a) We'd get a lot more flexibility with the content.
 b) If ever there is a changeover to a Drupal site, there will be no
 visual break... the roll-over could be almost invisible.

This is a non-argument. Drupal can adapt to whatever we create on
silverstripe, etc.

 PPPS: The graphic on the main page links to http:///download/ (not a
 relative link...)

 I know. I had to hack the HTML/CSS to make the shuffler look OK.

Huh? What does the link have to do with it? You already fixed the
images, the link is completely independent of the
images/photo-shuffler. But I'll fix it nevertheless...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Website status

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 I thought Joomla was far easier to use than Drupal and has a much larger 
 faster community?  SilverLight website looks very dated or is it just
 starting-up?

Please don't start trolling. 1st of all it is SilverStripe, not
SilverLight, 2nd if oyu know Joomla, Drupal, etc. Then you should know
that the look is independent of the CMS. What it looks like depends on
how you define the css.

You can make the site look like whatever you want. So please: Don't
argument pro/against a cms by the looks of the css. And yes, it is
starting up, and no, the design is not new, it is closely based on the
documentfoundation.org theme.
We're aware that it is not the nicest theme around there, but if you
want to be constructive, join the webs...@libreoffice.org mailinglist
and/or the design/marketing lists.

There have been various requests for comments, but people are too busy
to spend a considerable amount of time into it right now. There have
been a few proposals, but none of the drupal folks did comment on them
either, and the drupal team did not pick those up either.

So I don't consider the druapl site's theme any better in this regard.
Closed-shop work unfortunately. Instead of working on defining the
look of the site *right now* they prefer working behind closed doors
on the drupal site without providing feedback on the public
mailinglists. I don't like this at all.

It is good to see progress, but when this progress is on a completely
seperate track than the community discussion about the topic, then it
doesn't help at all.

Great. now this post turned into a rant again, but well, be it…

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] deb installer - have to manually modify link

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 4:23 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:
 Hi, :-)

 On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 02:54, Stefan Weigel
 stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote:
 Well, someone just changed http://www.test.libreoffice.org/download/
 and made downloading again very inconvenient.

 The convenient script can still be found here
 http://s132649167.online.de/LibO_test/sw_download.php

 I will fix this right now. I only unpublished the page while trying
 out some pages I'd created (it is a *test* site after all)...

Stefan already pointed out that it is not a /test/ site. It is the
site under construction.

Also I'm kind of puzzled to read your message in the
documentfoundation irc channel backlog

Marc did the website guys ever get an IA figured out for the
SilverStripe site?

As you've been participating in the conf-calls, have been following
the list, etc. I wonder what went so wrong that this isn't clear?

The topic in the first conf call was that people felt uncomfortable
because they don't know what and where to put content, what the
structure is. Thus it was requested to get a framework up, a site
structure consisting of placeholder pages that would lay out the
structure of the site, so that people can come up with content for
that area without having to think about what is missing, what should
be on the site.

This request was posted to various lists, unfortunately with not much
feedback, but still a few volunteers did work on creating those
placeholder pages defining the structure.

So the placeholder pages on the site *are* reflecting the IA that was
laid out for the site.

Now as to calling it a testing site - I'm not sure whether it is just
poorly chosen wording, or a real misunderstanding on your part. Again
I'm puzzled where that impression comes from. I think I always
stressed that the test.libreoffice.org website will be what the user
sees when the switch is done, when the test is removed from the URL.

Obviously I suck at communicating the important parts :-(

So again: test.libreoffice.org is the real site under construction. No
other content is available, the content will not be moved to another
site. The only change that will be done is changing the DNS name from
test.libreoffice.org to libreoffice.org. Nothing else will change.

 +1 for getting the site online by the end of the week! ;-)

I'd love to have it ready by then. So let's focus on one page at a time.

I propose the following, i.e. focus the work on individual pages this week:
* Home/Welcome page: Start now, continue till sunday (I'd like to have
some nice graphics there, some updated buttons)
* Wednesday is Contribute page time.
* Thursday is for Support
* Friday for the FAQ

Of course no hard limits, but the goal is to have the corresponding
page ready for the end-user at the end of the day.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] deb installer - have to manually modify link

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi David, *,

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 2:39 PM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote:
 Hi, :-)

 On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 20:58, Christian Lohmaier
 lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Stefan already pointed out that it is not a /test/ site. It is the
 site under construction.

 It's a test site in the sense that work is in progress, and that
 nothing is stable right now. It's staging site.

I'm not happy with calling it a test site though.

 [...] But let's remember this: it takes 2 mouse clicks to
 unpublish a page, and 2 more to put another page online in its place.

Yes, I didn't meant to accuse you for destroying other peoples work,
for messing up the site, etc.

I just wanted to stress once again that the content on this site is
the content that will go live. There is no other content waiting
somewhere else.
And by calling it a test site some people might be put off and say
to themselves I'd rather wait for the final site before providing
content.

 [...]
 Well I'm kind of puzzled that after weeks and weeks, scores of
 messages in the lists and various conference calls, there's very
 little concrete progress with producing content.

Yes, I'm also very disappointed at that, but I don't have an answer as
to why that is so :-(

I personally just did not have enough time to come up with content
myself, and I was hoping for the marketing team to come up with some
content... (and also with some artwork)

 Sorry, buddy, but I don't see any IA there that gives me a clue as to
 how to start writing copy without working at cross purposes with the
 intentions of whoever the heck is supposed to be coordinating this
 work.

Well, the IA is defining what content to put where on the site, right?
The site structure of the (back then) published pages did reflect
that. You have home, you got Contribute, you got FAQ, Support,
Download Contact in the main hierarchy, in the toptabs, and then a
couple of subpages in the individual areas.

As you notice yourself: Content is not contributed for whatever
reason. Thus it doesn't make sense to go into much more detail than
that.

 Now as to calling it a testing site - I'm not sure whether it is just
 poorly chosen wording, or a real misunderstanding on your part. Again
 I'm puzzled where that impression comes from. I think I always

 Maybe the impression that it's a testing and development site comes
 from the domain name test.libreoffice.org Or does this seem a
 far-fetched understanding to you? ;-)

Of course not, but that makes it even more important to not refer to
it as a playground area.

 [...]
 Thanks, that much I knew...

Yes, you might now. But I want all to know. Especially when the page
keeps getting called staging area, testing site, etc.

 +1 for getting the site online by the end of the week! ;-)

 I'd love to have it ready by then. So let's focus on one page at a time.

 OK, cool, now you're talking practical cooperation.

Sorry if you had the impression that I was trying to just pick on you,
just bashing around.

It is because just I don't know /why/ people don't add content. It
still is not clear to me what they are waiting for.

 I propose the following, i.e. focus the work on individual pages this week:
 * Home/Welcome page: Start now, continue till sunday (I'd like to have
 some nice graphics there, some updated buttons)

 Sure, can do. I'll start thinking about copy to write. And I think I
 have a practical idea for the buttons that will fit in with the
 current look. Do you have the source files of those current buttons?
 Not a critical problem if not...

Source files: no, I only have the files as they appear on the site.
https://github.com/tdf/cms-themes/tree/master/tdf/images/buttons

 By the way, could you fix that problem about the missing CSS style
 sheet(s) I mentioned in the ohter thread?

Sorry, don't remember you mentioned a missing css style - either I
didn't read it yet or I missed it.

 You did say that if
 additional styles were needed then you'd fix the problem. So far you
 didn't even reply to that thread.

Please give more details - what list, what time, what subject?
I mean it was yesterday night/today morning when I wrote that,
apparently you're referring to a much older thread.


 Great, Christian. I'll be happy to cooperate and produce. Maybe we can
 actually make some headway and get this site operational before
 Christmas at least?

Yes, I'd love to see it ready for the user before Christmas (as
experience shows between the years nothing will be done because people
rather spend time with family and friends :-))

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] deb installer - have to manually modify link

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Stefan, *,

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Stefan Weigel
stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote:
 Am 06.12.2010 12:21, schrieb Sebastian Spaeth:
 [...] I have been
 told that my script causes too much server load (which I can´t prove
 or disprove),

No, you misunderstood/misinterpreted. I was telling that I want a
solution that can be served statically, in a cached copy. A pure
php-server-based solution doesn't do that.

 which may be a reason for not considering the
 integration of this script.

Well, I'm kind of disappointed to read that, since you're well aware
that I implemented a download-selector page modeled after your
proposal on the silverstripe test-install at pumbaa already

I just didn't find the time to put it up on the real site until now.
For more details, please see the website-ML archive (and also the
german discuss ML)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] the distortion in chinese font in writer

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi !

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Jih-Yao Lin jih...@gmail.com wrote:
 when i select one line of my chinese font article, there will be some 
 distortion at the beginning and the end of the high light line.

Please file a bugreport and provide a screenshot, and if possible an
export to PDF and the original document.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ , LibreOffice component

If possible, also mention what font you use/whether that occurs with
all fonts. Preferrably try with freely available fonts, so it can be
easily reproduced.

Also very important of course is to mention the operating system used :-)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Download torrent files - Which ones?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Alan, *,

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:45 PM, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote:
 I think that one way I can possibly contribute to the project just now is to
 seed a number of torrents for others to download.

 I found a large number of torrents, including many libraries I think, when I
 looked, seeded some of them but very few became at all active. And there
 were several versions too.

 I do not know enough to decide which ones, and when, would be most useful.

 Can anyone please advise me  - say ref the five most useful  to seed please?

The most useful ones are the full installers of the latest version:

* Windows (multi and all)
* Linux x86 deb/rpm  x86_64 (rpm+deb)
* Mac OSX (PPC  Intel)

So this would be 8 torrents to choose from.
Windows one is most requested.

(but only a tiny fraction of downloades use bittorrent for downloading LO)
So pick whatever seems fit.

There might be more downloades using BT once it is offered more
prominently (and links to the torrents directly in having the user
search on the tracker)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Content of Beta3 Windows Install-Packages

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Stefan, *,

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Stefan Weigel
stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote:
 Hi,

 * Which languages are included in LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe ?

 * Which languages are included in
 LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_all_lang.exe ?

I forwarded/posted the same question to the libreoffice developer list
(as that is the place where the folks who build the installers hang
out are:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2010-November/003228.html

 * What is the meaning of BrOffice_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe ?
 (By md5 it seems to be identical to
 LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe)

Brazilian version has traditionally (i.e. OOo-times) been a different
package/has not been called OpenOffice.org in Brazil, but BrOffice due
to trademark issues. But AFAIK the plan is to get rid of the
additional packaging, but to do any branding stuff (if necessary) in
the same product. So yes, they are identical.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Larry, *,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM  Christian Lohmaier wrote:

 2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it.

Oh yes, it was changed (but according to usual etiquette, thus was
very likely done by gmane itself)

It was changed from:

[tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request:
Installation Instructions) (Friedrich)

To just [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist (your post)

When changing subjects in usenet/mailinglists it is common to include
the old subject like this

New Subject (was: old subject)

and then remove the (was: old subject) in replies (also you usually
don't include the Re: in the old subject)

The point is you claimed gmail being very capable for mailinglists,
I usually agree, but the references issue bugs me.

ciao
Christian

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