[tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
That is one reason why it is best to avoid putting spaces in url names.
 Anyone who does use a space in a url looks like a clueless moron because
it fails so often.  CamelCase works far more often.  Spaces don't.

You can see the space has to be replaced by a %20 (coding = space) and that
makes the url look too geeky so most people wont even try to read it.  if
there is an 'obvious' error, typo or spelling mistake then they wont be
able to find it.  This is exacerbated by the % sign then getting replaced
by the code for % which is %25.  Presumably if you pasted that link into
most programs (including LibreOffice Writer as one amongst many) then you
would get from
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%2520su%2520Firefox%2520Sync
to
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%252520su%252520Firefox%252520Sync
and so on.

Possible work-arounds are to put it in tag-brackets such as
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni su Firefox Sync
or perhaps speechmarks?
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni su Firefox Sync
or in wiki coding-brackets
{http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni su Firefox Sync}

I don't know if any of those work in your email-client or in Writer.
 Different programs handle these sorts of things differently so i tend to
give people thebasic link and then tell them how to navigate from there.
 eg 
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb
and look for the link  about syncing

Regards from
Tom :)



On 9 May 2013 12:29, Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it wrote:

 Hi Everyone and sorry for my long silence!

 I have not read the mailing list for a long, but I am always here to use,
 test, update and spread LibreOffice! ;-)

 Since 4.x versions - but maybe since before:

 1. if you create a new writer document and copy in it a with-space-link
 like this:
 http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%20su%20Firefox%20Sync
 2. save the document;
 3. export the document in pdf with the default settings;
 4. open the exported pdf;
 5. click on the clickable link;
 6. you will get this wrong link instead:
 http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%2520su%2520Firefox%2520Sync
 7. if you open that link from the odt (as usual with a ctrl+click) you get
 instead the right link and the browser open correctly!
 8. if you leave your mouse cursor on the link both on the pdf and the odt
 documents you will get a correct title yellow lable (tooltip) too!
 9. I finally think there is a bug on the pdf export module.
 10. This is the same if you create the above document with the Insert -
 Hypertext link menu function.

 I have tested this on each new testing release, but only today I have
 found the mental time to write this mail.
 I am also going to search if there is a related issue yet and if not, as I
 used in the near past, I will post a new one.

 Have a sunny day,

 Carlo

 p.s. on this Saturday I will see Italo (Vignoli) on Venice (where I live)
 in a very interesting public access Venetian Engineers Meeting that I help
 to organize... :-)

 --
 ing. Carlo Strata
 -
 via Botticelli 1/4
 30031 Dolo - VE
 Italia - Italy
 -
 tel./fax +39.041.822.0665
 cell. +39.347.85.69.824
 Skype carlo.strata
 Google carlo.strata.69
 -
 carlo.str...@tiscali.it
 PEC: carlo.str...@ingpec.eu


 --
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Re: [board-discuss] request for vacation

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Doesn't that count as TDF sending you to a conference?  Therefore it's part of 
your job to attend these sorts of things?  Presumably some of the time you 
might be working with other projects or your own things rather than 
representing TDF all the time so only the regular hours count, not 24/7.  

I'm just curious tbh.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Sent: Monday, 13 May 2013, 7:40
Subject: [board-discuss] request for vacation
 

Dear board,

next week, I'd like to attend LinuxTag in Berlin, and therefore would 
like to file a request for vacation for four days: from Tuesday, May 
21st to Friday, May 24th.

There are two more events in the future I'd like to attend where I also 
plan to file a request for vacation, as soon as I know the exact travel 
dates.

One is the LibreOffice Conference, where I estimatedly plan to be from 
Monday, September 23rd to Friday, September 27th.

The other event is CONSEGI in Brazil, where I estimatedly plan to be 
from Monday, August 12th, to Friday, August 16th. Note that August 15th 
is a public holiday.

For the latter two events, I will file my concrete request in time when 
I have the exact travel dates, but for LinuxTag, if there are no 
objections, I'd like to ask Thorsten to file that accordingly with the 
payroll provider.

Thank you very much,
Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I don't know if there is one for LibreOffice yet.  

People have tried to show me how to look things up in the bug-report place but 
for some reason i can never quite manage it myself.  

Also i'm not sure if just solving the problem in LibreOffice would make the 
problem go away.  It seems to be further upstream with fairly major projects 
having to deal with it separately. is it possible to post a bug-report against 
the internet?
Apols and regards form 
Tom :)  






 From: Florian Reisinger reisi...@gmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Cc: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it; TDF, discuss 
discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
us...@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013, 16:37
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] 
Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as 
%2520 ones)
 

Hi,

Does a bug report exist yet?

Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger

Am 09.05.2013 um 14:10 schrieb Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk:

 Hi :)
 %25 is the code for a % symbol so the 'wrong' link is not really wrong after 
 all.  It's just a bit odd and unnecessary.  In the 'wrong' link replace all 
 the %25s with % so that %2520 becomes %20 and then the apparently 'wrong' 
 link looks right.  It's a good reason for avoiding spaces and non-standard 
 characters in Urls.  CamelCase is much less prone to these sorts of problems.

 Seems a few other organisations are having trouble with %25 replacing %
 http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/technicalqueries/thread/6f20c6a9-0ed9-4e96-a0f7-cc1abbdf58a8
 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1648880?start=0tstart=0
 https://github.com/pipwerks/PDFObject/issues/23
 http://drupal.org/node/1335942
 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3549747/apache-25-in-url-400-bad-request

 Welcome back chap!  Lets hope they can fix it!
 Regards from
 Tom :)






 
 From: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it
 To: TDF, discuss discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
 us...@global.libreoffice.org
 Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013, 12:29
 Subject: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf 
 export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)


 Hi Everyone and sorry for my long silence!

 I have not read the mailing list for a long, but I am always here to
 use, test, update and spread LibreOffice! ;-)

 Since 4.x versions - but maybe since before:

 1. if you create a new writer document and copy in it a with-space-link
 like this:
 http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%20su%20Firefox%20Sync
 2. save the document;
 3. export the document in pdf with the default settings;
 4. open the exported pdf;
 5. click on the clickable link;
 6. you will get this wrong link instead:
 http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%2520su%2520Firefox%2520Sync
 7. if you open that link from the odt (as usual with a ctrl+click) you
 get instead the right link and the browser open correctly!
 8. if you leave your mouse cursor on the link both on the pdf and the
 odt documents you will get a correct title yellow lable (tooltip) too!
 9. I finally think there is a bug on the pdf export module.
 10. This is the same if you create the above document with the Insert -
 Hypertext link menu function.

 I have tested this on each new testing release, but only today I have
 found the mental time to write this mail.
 I am also going to search if there is a related issue yet and if not, as
 I used in the near past, I will post a new one.

 Have a sunny day,

 Carlo

 p.s. on this Saturday I will see Italo (Vignoli) on Venice (where I
 live) in a very interesting public access Venetian Engineers Meeting
 that I help to organize... :-)

 --
 ing. Carlo Strata
 -
 via Botticelli 1/4
 30031 Dolo - VE
 Italia - Italy
 -
 tel./fax +39.041.822.0665
 cell. +39.347.85.69.824
 Skype carlo.strata
 Google carlo.strata.69
 -
 carlo.str...@tiscali.it
 PEC: carlo.str...@ingpec.eu


 --
 To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
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 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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 --
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It might be good to keep the discussion to this thread on the Users List for 
now.  Lets see what other people say and what bug-reports you find about this.  
Perhaps move it up the chain of command after that.  I've just noticed that 
we have been cross-posting all this time.  it's better to stick to 1 list at a 
time for most things.  

- so I don't see the reason to recursively (!!!) substitute the % 
character when an URL is input in LibreOffice because % itself is 
already an accepted one;  

A big +1 to that!  I don't know why it's being done either.  It makes no sense 
that it happens that way.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  







 From: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Cc: Florian Reisinger reisi...@gmail.com; TDF, discuss 
discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
us...@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Friday, 10 May 2013, 9:03
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] 
Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as 
%2520 ones)
 

Hi Everyone,

as I told yesterday in my first mail I will look for an already created 
issue and if not I will create it. When I make this? Now! ;-)
In any case I will make you know what I do.

@Tom:

I think that:
- on URLs, browsers - but maybe a behaviour stated on  a well determined 
W3 Standard or similar open Consortium - substitute spaces with %20 hex 
character code;
- %20 (!!!): that means that %, 2 and 0 are all (!) well admitted 
characters, all (!!!);
- so I don't see the reason to recursively (!!!) substitute the % 
character when an URL is input in LibreOffice because % it self is 
already an accepted one;
- another low probability hypotheses in my head was that LibreOffice 
translate the space on a full 16 bit space character coding, but your 
explain about %25 representing the % hex code, rapidly make me clear 
what was happened;
- in any case (!), if you open the with-space link directly from a 
Writer document (ctrl+click for friends o chaps ;-) )  you will get the 
right page: in other words the link behave correctly! So the problem on 
pdf link behaviour has to be fixed in LibreOffice too!!! :-) But I do 
not think is a too hard to do, is not it?

Now I will go to open or vote an existing issue and come back here soon. 
I think we could also to maintain only one discuss: I will suggest the 
tdf-discuss one, what do you think about?

Have All a sunny day,

Carlo

I

ing. Carlo Strata
-
via Botticelli 1/4
30031 Dolo - VE
Italia - Italy
-
tel./fax +39.041.822.0665
cell. +39.347.85.69.824
Skype carlo.strata
Google carlo.strata.69
-
carlo.str...@tiscali.it
PEC: carlo.str...@ingpec.eu

Il 10/05/2013 08.28, Tom Davies ha scritto:
 Hi :)
 I don't know if there is one for LibreOffice yet.

 People have tried to show me how to look things up in the bug-report place 
 but for some reason i can never quite manage it myself.

 Also i'm not sure if just solving the problem in LibreOffice would make the 
 problem go away.  It seems to be further upstream with fairly major 
 projects having to deal with it separately. is it possible to post a 
 bug-report against the internet?
 Apols and regards form
 Tom :)





 
 From: Florian Reisinger reisi...@gmail.com
 To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it; TDF, discuss 
 discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
 us...@global.libreoffice.org
 Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013, 16:37
 Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] 
 Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported 
 as %2520 ones)


 Hi,

 Does a bug report exist yet?

 Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
 Florian Reisinger

 Am 09.05.2013 um 14:10 schrieb Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk:

 Hi :)
 %25 is the code for a % symbol so the 'wrong' link is not really wrong 
 after all.  It's just a bit odd and unnecessary.  In the 'wrong' link 
 replace all the %25s with % so that %2520 becomes %20 and then the 
 apparently 'wrong' link looks right.  It's a good reason for avoiding 
 spaces and non-standard characters in Urls.  CamelCase is much less prone 
 to these sorts of problems.

 Seems a few other organisations are having trouble with %25 replacing %
 http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/technicalqueries/thread/6f20c6a9-0ed9-4e96-a0f7-cc1abbdf58a8
 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1648880?start=0tstart=0
 https://github.com/pipwerks/PDFObject/issues/23
 http://drupal.org/node/1335942
 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3549747/apache-25-in-url-400-bad-request

 Welcome back chap!  Lets hope they can fix it!
 Regards from
 Tom :)






 
 From: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it
 To: TDF, discuss discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
 us...@global.libreoffice.org
 Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013, 12:29
 Subject: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3

[tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
%25 is the code for a % symbol so the 'wrong' link is not really wrong after 
all.  It's just a bit odd and unnecessary.  In the 'wrong' link replace all the 
%25s with % so that %2520 becomes %20 and then the apparently 'wrong' link 
looks right.  It's a good reason for avoiding spaces and non-standard 
characters in Urls.  CamelCase is much less prone to these sorts of problems.  

Seems a few other organisations are having trouble with %25 replacing %
http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/technicalqueries/thread/6f20c6a9-0ed9-4e96-a0f7-cc1abbdf58a8
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1648880?start=0tstart=0
https://github.com/pipwerks/PDFObject/issues/23
http://drupal.org/node/1335942
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3549747/apache-25-in-url-400-bad-request

Welcome back chap!  Lets hope they can fix it!  
Regards from 
Tom :)  







 From: Carlo Strata carlo.str...@tiscali.it
To: TDF, discuss discuss@documentfoundation.org; LibreOffice, users 
us...@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013, 12:29
Subject: [libreoffice-users] [4.0.3.3 non fixed bug] Link with a space Pdf 
export error (%20 characters - space ones - exported as %2520 ones)
 

Hi Everyone and sorry for my long silence!

I have not read the mailing list for a long, but I am always here to 
use, test, update and spread LibreOffice! ;-)

Since 4.x versions - but maybe since before:

1. if you create a new writer document and copy in it a with-space-link 
like this:
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%20su%20Firefox%20Sync
2. save the document;
3. export the document in pdf with the default settings;
4. open the exported pdf;
5. click on the clickable link;
6. you will get this wrong link instead:
http://support.mozilla.org/it/kb/Informazioni%2520su%2520Firefox%2520Sync
7. if you open that link from the odt (as usual with a ctrl+click) you 
get instead the right link and the browser open correctly!
8. if you leave your mouse cursor on the link both on the pdf and the 
odt documents you will get a correct title yellow lable (tooltip) too!
9. I finally think there is a bug on the pdf export module.
10. This is the same if you create the above document with the Insert - 
Hypertext link menu function.

I have tested this on each new testing release, but only today I have 
found the mental time to write this mail.
I am also going to search if there is a related issue yet and if not, as 
I used in the near past, I will post a new one.

Have a sunny day,

Carlo

p.s. on this Saturday I will see Italo (Vignoli) on Venice (where I 
live) in a very interesting public access Venetian Engineers Meeting 
that I help to organize... :-)

-- 
ing. Carlo Strata
-
via Botticelli 1/4
30031 Dolo - VE
Italia - Italy
-
tel./fax +39.041.822.0665
cell. +39.347.85.69.824
Skype carlo.strata
Google carlo.strata.69
-
carlo.str...@tiscali.it
PEC: carlo.str...@ingpec.eu


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Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
That 40 sounds bizzare.  Some have already claimed more than that on travel 
without being even slightly dishonourable.  Far from it in fact, they seem to 
have gone to extraordinary pains to keep costs down and i really can't imagine 
people in other organisations going that far.  It's an unworkable amount and 
must have some provisions to allow for reality?!!?  


Surely the normal way would be for TDF to buy in bulk, obtaining a massive 
discount due to that, and then sell on to individuals or groups at more than 
TDF paid per item.  Groups often do that sort of thing so that individuals pay 
less than they would have to if they bought the single item for themselves.  
The group gets a tiny profit and hopefully enough to cover any losses for items 
that go unsold and wastage, admin, postage, other overheads with some change 
left over.  The problem might be at what point that gets considered Trading 
and whether that is allowed.  


Regards from
Tom :) 







 From: Robinson Tryon bishop.robin...@gmail.com
To: Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com 
Cc: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org; Michael Meeks 
michael.me...@suse.com; market...@us.libreoffice.org; 
board-discuss@documentfoundation.org; libreoffice-dev 
libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org 
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 18:37
Subject: Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
 
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Florian Effenberger
 flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 Hi,

 Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-03-28 12:56:

         The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here:-)  The
 plan
 is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue.


 sure, that would be no issue then. :)


 So if I'm reading this right, even if we combine with an event that we need
 LibreOffice gear, we can't use that gear as a prize and therefor TDF cannot
 be involved at all? If this is the case I'll plan on going through SPI which
 is cool but will be unfortunate in the sense that we could spend more than
 necessary as a bulk order may cut cost substantially.

I think it would be perfectly fine for an individual to place an bulk
order for 50 T-shirts, and then have SPI buy 20 of them, TDF buy 20
more, and have a few individuals buy 1 or 2 each.

As long as we keep our noses clean and make sure that...
1) We get the organizations/individuals to pre-order the merchandise
2) We don't spend more than 40 € of TDF's money per year, per person
3) We make sure to deliver the merchandise once it arrives

...then I think that we should be okay. At least that's how I
understand the situation, anyhow :-)


Cheers,
--R

Re: [board-discuss] additional FOSDEM budget

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Hopefully these costs will go up quite dramatically every year because it's an 
indicator of success.  It's going up because we know that a LOT more people 
will be stopping and taking an interest in TDF and LibreOffice at the event 
(and at other events).  Also hopefully more people might be happy to don the 
tshirts and mingle to raise the profile even more.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2013, 13:19
Subject: Re: [board-discuss] additional FOSDEM budget
 
+1 from my side, of course as well

Florian Effenberger wrote on 2013-01-28 12:43:
 Hello,

 the board has previously approved [1] 2.000 € for FOSDEM collaterals.
 Because we would like to opt for higher quality t-shirts, plus produce
 some stickers in addition, I'd like to ask the board to approve an
 additional 600 € for collaterals.

 Although the amount sounds rather high, we try to give away t-shirts at
 FOSDEM for donations to get some return money, plus t-shirts not sold
 will be taken to other trade shows.

 Florian


 [1] 20130109-01 on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions

Re: [board-discuss] Format of the BoD votes announcement

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think just the vote count is fine.  If people want more info they can look 
through the appropriate thread.  I do quite like the idea of a list of names as 
a way of people checking they were counted correctly but there are times when a 
vote needs to be taken anonymously.  So, on balance i'm quite happy without 
names.  
Regards from
Tom :)








 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 8:38
Subject: Re: [board-discuss] Format of the BoD votes announcement
 
Hi Norbert,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2012-12-21 14:40:
 I'd like to suggest that the summary of the BoD vote as exemplified
 below be slightly changed to included nominative informations relative
 the the vote.

[..]

 Result of vote:
   3 approvals: John, Robert, Caroline
   0 neutral
   1 disapprovals. Phillip

it makes sense to me, and from my side, we can start by doing so with the very 
first minutes in 2013. It also helps in counting votes properly, if we need to 
explicitly state the names of the voters.

Maybe we can even add the opinions of those who are participating, but not 
formally allowed to vote (e.g. the audience or deputies not representing 
anyone). It helps giving an impression of the overall opinion.

Any thoughts from someone else?

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender)
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Jabber: flo...@jabber.org | SIP: flo...@iptel.org
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

Re: [board-discuss] Seeking approval for server procurement

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Ok, i am not a voting member but the options here seem to be 
1.  accept the donation and get an asset that might be useful (probably will be 
enormously useful)
2.  hand back the dosh

So i am not really clear why it's even up for discussion or voting on but i 
guess it's good policy jic it leads to further unexpected expenses or other 
problems (which seems very unlikely).
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Wed, 11/1/12, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: [board-discuss] Seeking approval for server procurement
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Wednesday, 11 January, 2012, 11:31

Hi *,

TDF has received a generous, targetted donation of $3000 to procure
a rack-mountable server, dedicated for dev-related workloads, e.g.
tinderbox builds. One of our sponsoring companies is offering
for-free hosting, such that this is a one-off spending.

I hereby request the board to approve the purchase of a suitable
box, for up to $3000.

Regards,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [board-discuss] FOSDEM travel funding

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Blimey!!  Given the work you do here i hope the BoD is able to stump-up the 
extra 100 to save you the 8hours journey!!  It'd be more cost-effective to get 
you the shorter flight so that you are not worn out (at either end) by the  
trip!
Regards from
Tom :) 


--- On Mon, 9/1/12, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [board-discuss] FOSDEM travel funding
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Monday, 9 January, 2012, 15:54

Hi,

Florian Effenberger wrote on 2012-01-09 16:52:
 Going via train is about 8,5 hours, but available for approximately 200
 €. Still rather expensive, but the cheapest I can get. I plan to arrive
 on the 3th and leave on the 5th, so depending on the hotel costs, I
 guess I need funding of not more than 400 €.

oh, and before someone slams me: Of course I do not plan to sleep in a room for 
100 € per night. ;-) I'd just like to have some reserve planned in without 
voting again, in case something is more expensive than planned. Normally, a 
decent hotel room should be doable for about 50-75 € per night.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Board of Directors at The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [board-discuss] New members

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think that is welcome back really!  Andre has done a huge amount here too 
so wb Andre! :)
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 10/1/12, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [board-discuss] New members
To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Tuesday, 10 January, 2012, 11:36

Hello,

André Schnabel wrote on 2012-01-09 20:05:
 back from the end of the year vacations, the MC started to process
 membership applications.

a very warm welcome also from my side - thanks for joining LibreOffice and TDF, 
looking forward to working with you!

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Board of Directors at The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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[tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Standalone PDF

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)

No.

Most of the apps all go together.  Base is sometimes a separate thing that can 
be added but i don't think Base works on it's own.  In GnuLinux (such as 
Ubuntu, Mageia, RedHat) it might be possible to just use your normal package 
manager to find and install something else that does a convert to pdf.  In 
Windows there are a few things, perhaps doPDF but they are independant 
projects.  Google search (or Bing or whatever) might help you find a 3rd party 
app to do the job.

Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Fri, 2/12/11, Paul agen...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Paul agen...@yahoo.com
Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] Standalone PDF
To: us...@global.libreoffice.org, discuss@documentfoundation.org, 
market...@global.libreoffice.org, des...@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, 2 December, 2011, 4:12

Does Libre office have a stand alone PDF application?  ie - does Libre provide 
the PDF editor by itself without all the other features in the 200 MB download 
- is it possible to install only the PDF tool without all the other features ?  
All responses appreciated. Thanks, Paula

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Re: [board-discuss] CommunityBylaws and actual structure and governance of The Document Foundation as a legal entity

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
The key words afaik are as a legal entity.  TDF's assets are currently being 
looked after by 1 (or more) of the community organisations that are legally 
registered as legal entitys.  TDF has not yet gained the status of being a 
legal entity.  When it does the assets will be transferred.  It was great to 
hear that the registration process is nearly complete already!  I thought it 
would take at least a year! :)  But perhaps i am reading too much into Andre's 
post.
Regards from
Tom :) 



--- On Wed, 30/11/11, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote:

 From: Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net
 Subject: Re: [board-discuss] CommunityBylaws and actual structure and 
 governance of The Document Foundation as a legal entity
 To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 9:23
 Hi Lionel,
 
  Original-Nachricht 
  Von: Lionel Elie Mamane lio...@mamane.lu
 
 
  I'm reading the wiki page CommunityBylaws, and I'm
 confused. It says
  These Bylaws do not apply to the actual structure and
 governance of
  The Document Foundation as a legal entity (...).
 
 Yes, (unfortunately) the current situation has some
 cunfusing points.
 
 We all hope that this will be resolved within the next few
 (hopefully 
 two) weeks.
 
 
  
  But then they go on doing exactly that. For example,
 they explain how
  the Board of Directors is elected, and by whom. The
 board of directors
  is AFAIK usually the people responsible to the law /
 state / courts
  that e.g. the money of the foundation is used in
 accordance to the
  goals of the foundation. 
 
 The Bylaws were drafted from a communitie's point of view,
 when we did
 not exactly know, what legal model the foundation will
 follow.
 So while many things in the bylaws match legal terms ans
 structure,
 it is not _exactly_ what we will see in legal statutes.
 
 
  
  
  So to me, it is factual that the Bylaws *do* speak
 about the actual
  structure and governance of The Document Foundation as
 a legal
  entity: they speak about the composition of the BoD,
 and the BoD is
  part of the structure of the foundation as a legal
 entity, and by law
  the BoD must be involved in the governance of the
 foundation as a
  legal entity.
 
 Yes, at some points, the bylaws match the legal structure,
 BoD is one
 of the perfect (99%) matches.
 
  
  
  Other examples:
  
   * The Chairperson (CH) is in charge of
 representing the Foundation.
 
 This is something we need to change, if the foundation will
 be approved
 by German authorities.
 
 As you quoted, in German law the Board (of directors)
 represents the
 Foundation.
 
 regards,
 
 André
 
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Re: [board-discuss] poll on regular BoD times

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Sun, 6/11/11, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org 
wrote:

 From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
 Subject: Re: [board-discuss] poll on regular BoD times
 To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Sunday, 6 November, 2011, 13:57
 Florian,
 
 Le 06/11/2011 13:14, Florian Effenberger a écrit :
  Hello,
  
  it seems we didn't yet come up with a solution.
 Everyone voted (thanks
  for that!), and e.g. Wednesday 1600 UTC looks rather
 good, with 7 people
  joining and 2 possibly, giving a total of 9.
  
  On the weekend, however, it looks rather bad. Neither
 Saturday nor
  Sunday has many people who could join a call. Please
 everyone check your
  availability again. With the current results, we could
 e.g. do Wednesday
  1600 UTC and Friday 1500 UTC, but no real weekend
 call.
  
  I am fine if we don't do one on the weekends, but
 wanted to give
  everyone a chance again in case two times in the
 evening is not desired.
  
  The poll is at
  
      http://doodle.com/rqay5h7syg45by9x
  
  Thanks, and have a nice Sunday,
  Florian
  
 
 May I propose an alternative solution?
 I was actually wondering if we would always need one call
 every week. We
 had a year of setup phase and obviously we still have
 much work to do,
 however, if we see things 6 months down the road maybe the
 BoD won't
 have to gather that often and sometimes it's best to have
 one call every
 two weeks with everyone available that short calls each
 week. I have no
 strong opinion here, only a comment that the problem at
 hand might not
 be a real problem.
 
 Best,
 Charles.
 
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RE: [board-discuss] Membership Committee

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think OpenOffice before the forking was under some fairly strange leadership. 
 ie a company that worked hard to increase community participation but not 
being very trusting of the communities they had grown = actively blocking many 
proposed patches and stuff developed by the community.  

Once Oracle took over things took a nose-dive and they demanded that people who 
held high positions in their community stepped down if they were also working 
in TDF.  I've even heard that Oracle took ownership of funds built-up by the 
community and refused to cover community expenses.  

So, we are dealing with 2 communities, or 1 fractured community that has been 
fed mis-information about each other.  As someone fairly new to the scene i 
think Apache are pretty much friends especially compared to profit-hungry 
organisations such as Oracle.  Hopefully time may heal some of the wounds but 
maybe a bit of dirty laundry needs to be aired in order for us to discover 
which bits of mis-information people have been fed. Hopefully we can do that a 
little more sensitively and compassionately in the future. 

Just my 2 cents and quite probably contains inaccuracies as it's mostly stuff i 
have picked up from the press rather than at first hand.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sun, 6/11/11, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote:

 From: Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org
 Subject: RE: [board-discuss] Membership Committee
 To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Sunday, 6 November, 2011, 18:03
 I am not questioning the prerogatives
 of the TDF to govern itself in any 
 manner. Norbert is correct that I have no standing in the
 matter.
 
 I was simply surprised that it came up here and Drew felt
 he had to address 
 it.  I don't question his doing so and how deliberate
 he is being about it.
 
 The AOOo project has committers and PPMC members who are
 also contributors to 
 LO. I know because I see their work in both places. 
 No one has ever 
 questioned that at ASF.  Not once.
 
 However, I think Norbert's reply, below, is ample
 demonstration of the 
 polarization that individuals bring to these
 conversations.  It is not just 
 AOOo members who say outrageous things.  Of course,
 our own outrageous things 
 are always the truth, and therefore admirable, aren't
 they?
 
 Norbert, you can make my note mean whatever you want. I
 stand by it as 
 written.
 
 Also, I said that there are conditions on participation in
 various ways.  It 
 is true here, and it is true at ASF.  ASF has a
 license requirement, TDF has a 
 license requirement, there are ways one becomes a committer
 on Apache 
 projects, there are ways committer rights are granted for
 LO, etc.  Apache has 
 a license grant requirement, the iCLA, that, here, is
 handled by an e-mail 
 message.  ASF provides assurance of the code it
 releases in its way, the TDF 
 has it in its way.
 
 I am not arguing the merits of any approach.  Every
 open-source project has 
 its conditions for operation and participation. 
 Developers will contribute 
 where it is comfortable and inviting for them.  Not
 all developers are the 
 same in the choices they make.
 
 How ASF members are elected and how the ASF board operates
 is all available 
 on-line and I am not going to go into it.
 
 One more thing.  I have found folks on ooo-dev who are
 cynical about the 
 honesty and character of TDF members, too, but nothing so
 blatantly virulent 
 as was just inserted here.  I believe it is accurate
 to say that none of those 
 statements are policy positions of the respective
 organizations.  When they 
 happen at AOOo I ignore them as trolling or, if there is a
 policy-unacceptable 
 action being proposed, I challenge them as inconsistent and
 unacceptable.
 
 
  - Dennis E. Hamilton
    tools for document
 interoperability,  http://nfoWorks.org/
    dennis.hamil...@acm.org 
 gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Norbert Thiebaud [mailto:nthieb...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 02:18
 To: board-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Subject: Re: [board-discuss] Membership Committee
 
 On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 dennis.hamil...@acm.org
 wrote:
 [...]
 
  First about the ASF.
 This is not about ASF. ASF is just a mean to an IBM goal in
 that story.
 
 
  Now, some individuals
 This is not so much about individuals either... AOOo owe
 its existence
 to Corporate politics and interest. It was by no stretch of
 the
 imagination a grass root movement.
 
 [..]
  in the public interest.
 Can you spare us the marketing line. Every similar
 'Foundation'
 operate under the same 'public interest' banner, which is a
 very broad
 one, and does not means, contrary to what one would expect,
 'in the
 interest of the public'. (1)
 
 [..]
  There are no recriminations, there is no litmus test,
 You mean except signing an iCLA ?
 
  Drew will always be welcome to contribute in any
 manner he chooses.
 

Re: [steering-discuss] Preparing elections for the membership committee

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Yes, thanks :)  I thought there was an impending problem rather than an 
existing problem.  I doubt anyone here minds and even the most determined drone 
would have trouble trying to state a case even if there were an objection.  So, 
it's all good 
Regards from
Tom :)

  

--- On Tue, 1/11/11, Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Preparing elections for the membership 
 committee
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Tuesday, 1 November, 2011, 15:16
 On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Tom
 Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
 wrote:
  Hi :)
  I have assumed that Thorsten has not stepped down from
 MC or something.  Whatever he was stepping down from was in
 order for him to be able to do some work that he is being
 blocked from doing anyway right?  So until the job needs to
 be started i think Thorsten is still on whatever it was he
 was going to step down from.
 
  Sorry, i just got a bit muddled.
 
 The MC is in charge of supervising the BoD election so
 clearly someone
 running for a BoD possition cannot be member of the MC
 The MC is in charge of supervising Solemn Address and
 Impeachment of
 the Board of Directors. again that create a conflict of
 interest if
 one is allowed to be BoD member and MC member.
 
 So, MC membership and BoD membership and candidacy are
 mutually exclusive.
 This has been overlooked during this election cycle.
 Thorsthen should
 have resigned of his MC position as soon as he declared his
 intention
 to run for a BoD position.
 I don;t think that there is any suspicion that this
 'irregularity' had
 any impact on the election, and clearly Thorsten election
 and behavior
 are beyond reproach.
 Still, The forms do matter, and even the impression of
 impropriety can
 create un-welcomed drama/suspiction/FUD etc...
 Hence the necessity to rectify the situation, hence
 Thorsten stepping
 down from his MC responsibilities.
 
 Does that clarifies it  ?
 
 
 Norbert
 
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side-note Re: [steering-discuss] chairmen

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Florian.  It is good to have these issues dealt with.  There is no need to 
apologise for 'spam' as it is all relevant and important stuff.  If these issue 
weren't raised today they would have to be raised another day and they are the 
type of thing that is good to deal with and get out of the way quickly.  

I think the Steering Committee and the MC have been fantastic and done a 
remarkable job.  Avoiding a complete re-shuffle all at the same time makes 
sense so that there is some continuity.  The current BoD seems a good selection 
and that promises well for the future of TDF and LO.  It would be good to add 
some diversity added to the management structure of TDF without losing anyone.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sun, 30/10/11, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 Subject: [steering-discuss] chairmen
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Sunday, 30 October, 2011, 18:44
 Hello,
 
 sorry for spamming you so massively today, but I want to
 use the free day to get some formal things done for TDF.
 
 The current statutes (which you will soon have in a
 translated English version) foresee, as it is a legal
 requirement in Germany, that there will be two chairmen: One
 chairman and one deputy.
 
 I know we had a discussion on this topic quite some months
 ago, and before you are surprised that it comes up again, be
 advised that contrary to the original plannings, the role
 does not have additional rights.
 
 The draft mainly foresees that for legally representing the
 foundation towards third parties, the chairman and some
 other BoD member has to sign the contract, and in case the
 chairman cannot, the deputy does. So, for any contract, it
 cannot be signed without the chairman, like it is common
 practice in many associations as well (FrODeV has a similar
 rule), except in cases there are individual warrants, which
 is possible with our statutes.
 
 Naturally, the chairmen will also be the first point of
 contact for authorities and other boring legal stuff. ;-)
 (Read: In case the tax authorities need information, they
 will first ping you. In case the foundation authorities have
 issues or questions, you will be the first who gets pinged.
 Etc.) Basically, that's it, there are no further rights or
 duties, no more merits and no stronger voice, but you will
 see that when we will have the translation ready.
 
 The statues do not set explicit rules on whom to appoint,
 they just foresee that the BoD appoints two of its members
 to these roles. NB: Deputies can, to my understanding, *not*
 be appointed chairmen.
 
 Some proposed (and IMHO, we had this at least in one early
 bylaws draft) that those who had been elected with the most
 votes should be appointed automatically. However, not
 automatically those who have most votes want to run for that
 role, so I propose that everyone of the newly elected BoD
 thinks whether he wants to get appointed, and we discuss it.
 Only if several people run and cannot agree on two
 candidates, we might switch back to the most votes model.
 
 Best is to wait until the translation is ready so we have
 the same understanding of the topic, since the term chairman
 might raise some confusion, but I wanted to make you aware
 of it already.
 
 Florian
 
 -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 Board of Directors at The Document Foundation
 Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1 
to board.  It's more generic and so people will recognise it more easily from 
other organisations.  All 3 options have delightful puns of course.
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Wed, 26/10/11, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Wednesday, 26 October, 2011, 14:52
 On 26/10/2011 15:32, Florian
 Effenberger wrote:
  Hello,
  
  since the Steering Committee will soon cease its
 existence, and the newly elected BoD will be officially in
 charge, I would like to rename this list.
  
  My proposal would either be:
  
  1. core-discuss@tdf
  2. board-discuss@tdf
  
  I am in favor of #2. Thoughts?
  
  Florian
  
 I know my input wont really matter but 2 seems the most
 practical in the sense its easy to identify what is meant by
 board. Core is ambiguous core what developers etc.
 
 Regards
 
 Jonathan Aquilina
 
 Get a signature like this. 
 http://r1.wisestamp.com/r/landing?promo=19dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisestamp.com%2Femail-install%3Futm_source%3Dextension%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3Dpromo_19
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Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
How about just keeping the current name, steering-discuss, or perhaps the 3 
boards could be; 
 - directors-discuss
 - advisory-discuss
 - trustees-discuss
with this one being the directors-discuss?  BoD is fairly unique to TDF so 
it's not very transparent to people outside of the organisation or people that 
are new to it.  
Regards from
Tom :) 


--- On Wed, 26/10/11, Heinz W. Simoneit hein...@gmx.de wrote:

 From: Heinz W. Simoneit hein...@gmx.de
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Wednesday, 26 October, 2011, 16:34
 Hi Flo, *,
 
 Andre Schnabel schrieb:
  Hi,
 
  Von: Friedrich Strohmaierdamokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de
  Betreff: Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this
 list
  My proposal would either be:
  1. core-discuss@tdf
  2. board-discuss@tdf
  3. bod-discuss
 
  bod has kind of brand at least in my perception
 and is less generic
  than board.
  +1
 
  I'm still working on the translation of the statutes
 (sorry for the delay).
  While board is a correct term, we will also have an
 advisory board and
  board of trustees. So board of directors or bod
 should be used
  to identify clearly, what we are speaking about.
 
 +1  (bod)
 
 Best,
 Heinz
 
 -- Have a nice time!
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ahah, if the 1 list covers all three boards then board-discuss makes a lot of 
sense.  I had assumed that some of those lists might not be for the general 
public but might have been useful for the relevant people.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Wed, 26/10/11, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] renaming this list
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Wednesday, 26 October, 2011, 19:10
 Hi,
 
 Tom Davies wrote on 2011-10-26 17:50:
 
  How about just keeping the current name,
 steering-discuss, or perhaps the 3 boards could be;
    - directors-discuss
    - advisory-discuss
    - trustees-discuss
  with this one being the directors-discuss?  BoD
 is fairly unique to TDF so it's not very transparent to
 people outside of the organisation or people that are new to
 it.
 
 I think there should be only one public discussion list for
 those, otherwise we end up with too many lists.
 
 Given that bod is a bad choice (thanks, Regina!), I
 propose
 
 either       
 directors-discuss
 or        board-discuss
 
 with a slight preference for the latter.
 
 Florian
 
 -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document
 Foundation
 Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] Candidacy for Board: Michael Meeks

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks :)  I'm not going to be at Paris but thanks for the offer.  

Documentation on how to join in with other teams (including the Docs Team 
(following recent upgrades to their infrastructure)) also needs to be done.  

I don't know what UNO is.  It seems to be something that depends on javascript 
or .Net or something??  Seems a bit strange.  Of the links i found this link 
made the most sense 
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/FirstSteps/Programming_with_UNO
and even that was a tad confusing imo.  Does the limited guidance on how to add 
a language or new translation push people into using UNO?  

Oddly we don't get many calls for how to translate or how to add a new language 
and when we do people seem satisfied with the links we give them to specific 
teams or to the global translations list.  We do need to get decent guides for 
those things but we get a lot more people asking about how to join in with 
programming and people seldom seem happy with what we can give them.  

It would be good to have a proper LO Guide that reflects LO's direction instead 
of the direction under Sun.  

If there are other guides that could be usefully added to the collection that 
would be great.  Anyone can either edit the page or pass the links to the 
documentation list.  

Anyway, thanks hugely for your considerate reply.  
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Mon, 10/10/11, Michael Meeks michael.me...@suse.com wrote:

From: Michael Meeks michael.me...@suse.com
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Candidacy for Board: Michael Meeks
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Monday, 10 October, 2011, 10:11

Hi Tom,

On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 18:02 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 One of the top priorities for the Documentation Team right now
 is a guide to help people that want to start programming for
 LibreOffice.  

    Cool ! :-) and of course, it's something that can be dead useful. 

 There is already a good one for Extensions 

    Right - and of course, we'd prefer people to write code that can be
integrated into the core cleanly, and have code sharing between
different implementations (it's easier to hack that up, debug it, and
deploy it too FWIW).

 At the moment the Docs Team can only point to
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation#Other_Documentation_and_Resources

    I like the collection; it'd be great to excerpt / re-write some more
functionally focused flows for the things we know happen lots:

    How to add a new language
    How to add a new translation

    But of course many things are simply not documented at all; and worse
most of the existing docs are *heavily* UNO focused, which is (IMHO) a
big mistake.

    Anyhow - there were some starter tasks I mentioned to David, when
they're done - lets have a call  brainstorm on what more can be done,
and how best to do it; will you be in Paris to discuss ?

    I suspect there is enough out there to dig out and re-hash in a helpful
way. As an example if we systematically discard anything that talks
about UNO - and condense what little is left (code structure diagrams /
functional descriptions etc.) I think we might end up with something
quite useful for new core hackers: or at least a nucleus to work from.

    Thanks,

        Michael.

-- 
michael.me...@suse.com  , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot


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Re: [steering-discuss] Candidacy for Board: Michael Meeks

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
One of the top priorities for the Documentation Team right now is a guide to 
help people that want to start programming for LibreOffice.  

There is already a good one for Extensions but most of the scattered things we 
have for programmers are apparently for OpenOffice when it was under Sun.  
LibreOffice has  significantly improved things, for example the Easy Hacks 
and probably details about the infrastructure and work-flow.  

At the moment the Docs Team can only point to
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation#Other_Documentation_and_Resources
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Sat, 8/10/11, Jesús Corrius je...@softcatala.org wrote:

From: Jesús Corrius
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Candidacy for Board: 
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Saturday, 8 October, 2011, 15:33

 This could usefully be a collaborative initiative actively worked on
 by Caolan McNamara, Thorsten Behrens and Michael Meeks.

In my opinion, I don't think it's best for the project to put some of
the most skilled developers to work in documentation, when other
developers can also do this task perfectly well.

Jesús Corrius

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Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Base does support a lot of different back-ends but it needs to have a default 
one.  The current default seems to be quite troublesome so people are often 
told to use something else such PostGreSql or MariaDb / MySql.  

MariaDb is the same as MySql except that it is developing fast and has almost 
all the MySql community including the original developers.  The community were 
even more unhappy with being under Oracle than they were under Sun so they 
forked off and formed a new organisation so that they could push through a 
large number of bug-fixes and developments that Sun / Oracle had been blocking 
for years.  I did mention this earlier in this thread but i know it's difficult 
to keep track of issues like that when this list is not focused on Base so i 
guess i have to mention it again.  MySql is in roughly the same state as OOo 
before Apache got involved.  MariaDb is a drop-in replacement with a much 
stronger future.  

Clearly people on this list don't know much about usign Base.  When you open 
Base the first thing it asks is which back-end you would like to use and there 
is a drop-down that includes the various back-ends mentioned and more but has a 
default of HqSql.  Again i guess it's something that people on this list might 
not be aware of so it's a opint that will probably have to be mentioned several 
times in the course of any discussion about Base in this or any of the other 
existing lists.  

If the PostGreSql people could be encouraged to send some devs to work on Base 
then that would be a huge help and would greatly help tighter integration with 
that particular back-end.  It would be nice to include other people that are 
interested in working on various aspects of Base, eg doumentation, devs, maybe 
design etc but not all those people are on this list.  

Perhaps one way would be to cross-post any discussion about Base so that all 
the lists got any post about Base?  That would neatly avoid having to set-up a 
new list and still reach the various different people :)

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 13/9/11, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011, 9:17

On 13 September 2011 07:47, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 13/09/2011 08:43, Ian Lynch wrote:

 I think part of the problem is the rise of client server databases with
 the
 internet. It's a bit of an irony because to start with OOo used the
 principle of connecting to a database rather than including the old
 Addabas
 that was with StarOffice. Snag now is that even if the use of Base is
 minority it's difficult to withdraw it without upsetting them.

 Ian
 Sent from my Android Smartphone.
 www.theingots.org

 On 13 Sep 2011 00:16, Tom 
 Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.**uktomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
  wrote:

 Hi :)
 Done that.  Been there.  It didn't work.  Base is dying. Can we just admit
 that and remove it from LO?
 Regards from
 Tom :)


 Why not find a way to integrate connectivity to all the major databases
 such as mysql and MsSQL servers?


This was the method in the early days. I assume it still works. At the
weekend at the Apache Bar Camp I was talking to PostgreSQL developers who
are very interested in better integration with OOo/Libo. We are likely to be
working together on training and certification so there are possibilities to
get some funding to this development but its going to take a little time.
They are applying for FP7 funding through the EU and we can complement that
with Lifelong Learning projects.

--- On Mon, 12/9/11, Thorsten
Behrensthb@**documentfoundation.orgt...@documentfoundation.org
  wrote:

 From: Thorsten 
 Behrensthb@**documentfoundation.orgt...@documentfoundation.org
 

 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
 To: Tom Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.**uk tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: 
 steering-discuss@**documentfoundation.orgsteering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Date: Monday, 12 September, 2011, 15:34


 Tom Davies wrote:

 Do you mean how many expressed an interest and tried to give it a
 go during t...



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-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg

Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
As i keep pointing out TDF started up almost exactly 1 year ago.  All the other 
apps have a number of people that work on them or happily move between the 
different apps but none touch base.

Quirks and regressions are quite common in Base between one release of LO and 
another.  The regressions sometimes get posted as bug-reports but almost no 
devs are working on Base so they don't get fixed.  

The current 'plan' of sitwait has NOT worked during the last 1 year and shows 
no sign of working soon.  

It would be nice to have a list dedicated to Base where we could discuss issues 
about how to re-invigorate that part of the project.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 13/9/11, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011, 9:25

Tom Davies wrote:
 Done that.  Been there.  It didn't work.  Base is dying. Can we
 just admit that and remove it from LO?

Hi Tom,

why do you think it's dying? And removing it from LO is not an
option for me. People using it need to step up, and start getting
involved - and I'm sure they will. Free software is a lot about
scratching your itches - if something does not work properly, get
your hands dirty  try fixing it. We'll all happily answer code
questions over at libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Hmmm, if you depend on Base then i think it's about time you start looking into 
switching to Kexi.  It supports a variety of back-ends, just as Base does, but 
it does have a large number of devs actively working on it.  

I think we have to start recommending Kexi to anyone that has any problem with 
Base as Base's problems are unlikely to get fixed given the determination here 
of blocking any plans to develop a Base community within TDF.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 13/9/11, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011, 9:25

Tom Davies wrote:
 Done that.  Been there.  It didn't work.  Base is dying. Can we
 just admit that and remove it from LO?

Hi Tom,

why do you think it's dying? And removing it from LO is not an
option for me. People using it need to step up, and start getting
involved - and I'm sure they will. Free software is a lot about
scratching your itches - if something does not work properly, get
your hands dirty  try fixing it. We'll all happily answer code
questions over at libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Done that.  Been there.  It didn't work.  Base is dying. Can we just admit that 
and remove it from LO?
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Mon, 12/9/11, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Monday, 12 September, 2011, 15:34

Tom Davies wrote:
 Do you mean how many expressed an interest and tried to give it a
 go during the past year or do you mean how many at any one time or
 do you mean how many right now?

All of that would be useful to know.

A list does not magically make a community appear. I'd suggest
either discuss@ or libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org to attempt to
coagulate interested parties - libreoffice@fdo has the advantage
that Cc-ing unsubscribed parties permits them to answer to the list
w/o moderation. Feel free to Cc (or Bcc) the folks you'd think might
be interested, by proposing some specific things to do (like the
developer docs you mentioned).

Once there's people working on stuff, and still want a separate
list, feel encouraged to come back with a proposal here.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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[steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
A few people have asked about starting up a new mailing list to try to bring 
together people that want to work on Base.  People from Documentation, 
Developers perhaps later on some people from Design.  

At the moment there are people that want to work on Base but each is isolated 
and 'waiting' for people on other teams to do things that need to be done 
before they can start.

Could we start up a new mailing list to allow cross-group collaboration on 
Base?  Who should i ask to set it up?  Should i ask the web team?
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] LinuxCon Europe

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
For meetings, conferences, training days and stuff like that we would often 
have 
an amount for refreshments.  In End of Year Accounts or Financial 
Statements for SMBs (Small-Medium sized Business) there is often be an item 
labelled Refreshments buried in Other Expenses.  Is food not allowed in 
organisations registered in Germany?  It would be a shame because you have 
great 
stuff over there.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 26 August, 2011 10:45:30
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] LinuxCon Europe


On 26 Aug 2011, at 10:32, Florian Effenberger wrote:

 Hi Italo,
 
 thanks for your engagement!
 
 Italo Vignoli wrote on 2011-08-26 11:04:
 Including food, I will spend a maximum of 300 Euro. I am asking the
 Steering Committee to approve this reimbursement.
 
 Given that we can pay this from SPI (paying from FrODeV is a bit problematic 
when it comes to travel costs and foreign countries, due to tax regulations) - 
+1 from my side.
 
 The only point we should talk about is food - as a general rule, normally 
reimbursements should only contain hotel and transportation, but no food. TDF 
has no rules yet on this, but maybe we should limit it to that?

That's an odd rule. A reimbursement for a guest or for an emissary should 
include Travel, Accommodation and Living. The only place in recent memory that 
has told me it does not pay for Living is TDF.

S.


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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think that counts as 6 votes with none against, so it's nem con or 
something.  The votes from deputies doesn't count if the  people they are 
deputies for have voted.  Not that it makes much difference since it's still a 
strong majority with none against.  

Regards from
Tom :)




From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 17 August, 2011 11:41:29
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's 
set-up 
process

Hello,

I just counted the votes, and I found at least these voting +1:

Florian
Charles
Italo
Thorsten
André
Sophie

Plus Michael and Christoph and deputies, plus some non-binding votes, so I 
hereby close the vote and just added it as an official decision to 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions

@André: I ws not sure on how to reflect the current voting - Michael and 
Christoph voted +1, but the seat holders they are deputies for voted 
themselves. 
I wrote approved with votes of 8 voting members (including two deputy votes) 
- 
should that be just 6 voting members instead, to make clear only 6 people had 
valid votes?

Thanks for your support!
Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It's all good.  We get there in the end.  Hopefully in a more elegant and less 
turgid way next time!
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 17:30:55
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots


snip /

I'm amused that the point I was making has been taken on board silently; 
naturally I agree :-) 


S.

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1

Possibly omit the middle paragraph.  It would leave the statement without an 
explanation but at least it would state what the preference is.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 10:00:01
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

Hi,

based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken 
on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system.

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved 
for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk 
involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming 
and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is 
up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.
==

Are there any severe objections and concerns (please no beauty corrections, 
only severe changes), or can we start the SC vote?

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] List discussion purpose

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1

Also, allowing  threads (such as the one about job-description for marketing 
contacts) to split out to other, more relevant, lists is great and seems to be 
working fine.  


It's inevitable that discussions take place all over the place because there is 
a lot of energy and excitement in TDF and about LibreOffice.  Inevitably that 
is 
going to ruffle some feathers but it's not necessarily a bad thing.  This 
sort 
of discussion to un-ruffle accidental issues usually goes well here too.  It's 
fairly clear there is no deliberate hiding going on and clearly no-one here has 
bad intentions.  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@varekai.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 15:27:28
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] List discussion  purpose

2011/8/12 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz

 Hi Florian,

 On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Florian Effenberger
 flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
  I think it has been discussed in public rather often that there is a
 private
  list where all the steering committee members are on, and that there are
  private phone calls sometimes.
 
  We never planned to have things in secret, so sorry if that impression
 has
  grown.

 Perhaps it would be good to list the private mailing lists existing,
 so that interested people can send a request to a relevant human being
 for a subscription. Otherwise, some people might never learn that they
 even exist.

 After discussion threads on private MLs and after private calls held
 by the SC and/or relevant project teams (such as the sysadmins),
 perhaps it might be a solution to publish an advisory on the
 tdf-discuss list explaining as much as possible about the subject of
 the call/thread, and as much as possible about the results of the
 discussions? That way, at least people would be informed that they
 have taken place, rather than the community possible being totally
 unaware of such communication.


I don't see any problems in private mailing lists if they are listed
somewhere and the rules to be included in them are public, fair and clear.



 --
 David Nelson


Cheers


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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
definitely.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 16:55:51
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's 
set-up 
process

A lawyer is indispensable I think, and the fees sound reasonnable . +1

Charles.
Le 12 août 2011 17:34, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
a écrit :
 Hello,

 as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
 legally setting up the Foundation.

 For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
 assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
 legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
 helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.

 Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
 authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
 documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
 German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
 these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan to
 officially contract a lawyer to assist us.

 In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
 weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
 mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
 services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.

 Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
 50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
 a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the speciality
 with the membership we have come up with.

 Thoughts welcome.

 Florian

 --
 Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
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 Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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off-list Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks for jumping in there :)  I hoped there were other people from Branding 
around or at least other people that might have some vague idea about the 
issues.  


It's ok for the rest of us to guess but it's better to have the right answers 
from the right people because there is a strong chance of the rest of us 
getting 
it wrong and falling into 'obvious' traps.  Italo was the only name i knew for 
certain.  

Thanks and regards from
Tom :)





From: Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 11 August, 2011 7:08:01
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

Hi Tom, all!

A quick note ... mis-using the steering-discuss being an SC deputy.

Am Mittwoch, den 10.08.2011, 10:35 +0100 schrieb Tom Davies:
 Sounds good to me but i'm curious about the Branding Team's thoughts on this. 
  

 Italo?

I'm not Italo, but I'm one of those who (with Bernhard, Nik, Ivan, ...)
developed the today's branding. Personally, I would be happy if we could
ship the non-tagline logo - and add the tagline on demand. This will
make things more simple and even more visually attractive.

When we worked on the motif design, Nik already made a draft how this
could look like:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/b/b3/ScatterInContext_bunch.jpg


So +1 to the proposal.

One thing that - then - needs to be addressed is the todays tagline
logo. Later this year, I'd like to propose a small revision to make
non-tagline and tagline logo more consistent.

Cheers,
Christoph


 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 9:25:05
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy
 
 Hi,
 
 Andre Schnabel wrote on 2011-08-08 13:17:
  ... our default logos in the source tree use the TDF tagline (at least this
  was when I last did a build from source), but the tagged logo should
  be used for instance on .. software builds compiled by the Document
  Foundation.
  
  Imho quite easy to resolve: use the community logos per default for builds
  from source. Enable the Logo with TDF tagline on build time and tell people
  to use this only when doing builds that are supposed to be distributed
  via TDF resources.
 
 that indeed sounds like a senseful idea. What do others think?


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Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Good point.  There are a LOT of distros out there so perhaps it might be best 
to 
save up applications until there is a batch to work through to help with 
work-flow.  Anyway, there is no point worrying about this unless the TDF 
suddenly gets swamped with tons of requests and that would give the batch 
anyway!  lol

Ok, lets forget this suggestion and get back to what this thread was really 
about before i side-tracked it (apols) :)
Regards from
Tom :)




From: drew d...@baseanswers.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 16:15:44
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

On Wed, 2011-08-10 at 17:06 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Tom Davies wrote on 2011-08-10 16:45:
  if it could be that simple then it would be easy to give quick answers to
  requests.  I'm not sure what the relevance of Debian is.
 
 
  Could there be an agreement now to allow any distro in the top 100  (or 
  just 
top
  50?) at DistroWatch
 
 
  http://distrowatch.com
  to use 'the proper' logos and splash-screen rather than the community 
versions.
  Any other distros that contact TDF could be dealt with one at a time but it
  might help to have a blanket agreement covering the most popular ones.
 
 I would not give general permissions. Permissions that are different 
 from the standard policy should always be granted on an individual basis 
 / case-by-case basis.

+1

It would make sense I suppose, looking at Linux distro's for instance,
to construct a reasonably simple mechanism for non-commercial users to
request the logo - perhaps a web form, the request could be sent to a
mailing list, a standing practice _could_ be to allow use after some
period of days after request assuming no one objects. (just a off the
top of the head thought)

//drew


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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk 
in a way that could NOT be fix easily  quickly would be really dumb.  It is an 
easily avoidable risk.  


The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does 
not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are.  Indeed, there was a meeting 
that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian.  
There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the 
perceived 
risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be 
avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible.  


With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk.  It also means the Documentation 
Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally 
consistent documentation.  The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left 
allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like.  By contrast the Windows 
Eula is very restrictive and people in the discussion even highlighted 
paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would 
make 
them useful for documentation would be a violation.

There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered 
by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could
1.  Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or
2.  TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves
The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was 
produced using non-Windows screen-shots.  



In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS 
for saving data.  The TomTom devices used what 'everyone' uses for saving data. 
 
The hardware was their own, the systems were their own but they used Fat32, or 
Fat16 file-systems for saving their own data onto their own devices.  


Fat32, Fat16 or just plain Fat are 'used by everyone' for usb-sticks, 
memory-cards, sd-cards for cameras, phones, mobile devices, calculators and so 
on.  Apparently we should all pay MS for the privilege of storing our own data 
on our own systems just in case MS suddenly decides to single us out while 
ignoring other people's violations.  


Personally on small external devices i tend to stick with ext2 or i don't even 
worry about the re-writes issue on older SSd tech, and use ext4.  The Fat 
systems is notoriously flaky and even Ntfs has horrible problems that are 
neatly 
avoided in the ancient ext2 so i actually gain a lot by doing so.  Occasionally 
i can't share data on it with insecure systems.  



Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of 
types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid.  Why ask people to beat 
their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner?  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 1:07:20
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

My proposal stands :-) :-)

On 8 Aug 2011, at 01:04, Tom Davies wrote:

 Hi :)
 That would completely change the statement.  It is the opposite of what 
 Florian 

 wrote.  Are we going to reopen discussion about the issue again?
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Sun, 7 August, 2011 13:44:24
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
 
 
 The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk
 involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is
 deemed low.
 
 This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to 
 legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for 
 whatever 

 motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. 
I'd 

 suggest saying:
 
 
 The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using 
 screenshots 

 of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other 
 theoretical 

 risk facing software projects.
 
 
 S.
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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It's easy to make empty promises but there is nothing written down to say that 
the Steering Committee and BoD would accept any responsibility at all.  The 
risk 
is all on individual contributors at the moment.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:31:49
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

snip /

Oh -  imho TDF should be there to protect individuals (who actually contribute 
to TDF projects),
not to sue them.

snip /

regards,

André

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
There were a reasonable amount of +1s to the first draft produced by Florian 
and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting.  We had just heard the 
advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of 
area.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:41:05
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 Hi :)
 I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a 
risk
 in a way that could NOT be fix easily  quickly would be really dumb.  It is 
an
 easily avoidable risk.

I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal
scenario without precedent.



 The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) 
does
 not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are.

Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis
do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal
angle to force a POV is a strawman ?

  Indeed, there was a meeting
 that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian.
 There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the 
perceived
 risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be
 avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible.

using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own
the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot.



 With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk.  It also means the Documentation
 Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards 
professionally
 consistent documentation.
Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called
legal risk is a straw man

  The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left
 allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like.  By contrast the Windows
 Eula is very restrictive

The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that
would still not make that the Law.
actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section
27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land.

 and people in the discussion even highlighted
 paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would 
make
 them useful for documentation would be a violation.

 There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered
 by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could
 1.  Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or
 2.  TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves

Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do
just fine on our own :-(

 The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was
 produced using non-Windows screen-shots.



 In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS
 for saving data.

What patent do screen-shoots infringe ?
And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html :
Specific financial terms were not disclosed. 

[snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ]


 Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of
 types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid.  Why ask people to beat
 their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner?

Or just easily not enocurage those that manufacture brick wall in their path.



Norbert

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
The precise problem i have with the amended wording is that it reverses the 
meaning of the 2 paragraphs.  Florian did a minor adjustment but your's 
completely changes it to say the opposite of the original.  


I suspect that no-one on the SC or BoD has any legal training or experience in 
this area of law even for just the US let alone globally.  The couple of 
experienced legal professionals that were able to let the list know their 
opinions last time are probably not thrilled with the idea of again spending 
time to give advice again about the same issue.  Can the SC stand by a decision 
it made a couple of months ago or not?  Should we ignore legal opinion and go 
with whatever seems like common sense?
Regards from
Tom :)




From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 9 August, 2011 0:06:03
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

:-)

What is the precise issue you have with the proposed amended language, Tom? 
Please be specific so we aren't just appealing to the gallery here. I assert 
that the language I am proposing is a minor change that has the same effect as 
the earlier text but ensures we do not leave hostages to fortune.

Are there any others sharing Tom's concern please?

S.

/:-)


On 8 Aug 2011, at 23:59, Tom Davies wrote:

 Hi :)
 There were a reasonable amount of +1s to the first draft produced by 
 Florian 

 and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting.  We had just heard the 
 advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of 
 area.  
 
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:41:05
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
 
 On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 Hi :)
 I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a 
 risk
 in a way that could NOT be fix easily  quickly would be really dumb.  It is 
 an
 easily avoidable risk.
 
 I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal
 scenario without precedent.
 
 
 
 The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) 
 does
 not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are.
 
 Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis
 do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal
 angle to force a POV is a strawman ?
 
 Indeed, there was a meeting
 that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian.
 There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the 
 perceived
 risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be
 avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible.
 
 using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own
 the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot.
 
 
 
 With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk.  It also means the 
Documentation
 Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards 
 professionally
 consistent documentation.
 Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called
 legal risk is a straw man
 
 The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left
 allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like.  By contrast the 
Windows
 Eula is very restrictive
 
 The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that
 would still not make that the Law.
 actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section
 27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land.
 
 and people in the discussion even highlighted
 paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would 
 make
 them useful for documentation would be a violation.
 
 There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get 
clobbered
 by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could
 1.  Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or
 2.  TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves
 
 Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do
 just fine on our own :-(
 
 The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was
 produced using non-Windows screen-shots.
 
 
 
 In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS
 for saving data.
 
 What patent do screen-shoots infringe ?
 And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ?
 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html :
 Specific financial terms were not disclosed. 
 
 [snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ]
 
 
 Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of
 types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid.  Why ask people to beat
 their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner?
 
 Or just easily not enocurage those

Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think Italo would have alerted us if there was a problem.  Or someone else if 
he hadn't noticed it.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sun, 7 August, 2011 11:59:15
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-08-06 13:54:

 Has the marketing or Branding team (or reps here) approved of either this
 version or the original?  Since both have very much the same meanings i think
 approval of either would be good enough.

everyone involved should be subscribed to the steering-discuss list, so they 
can 
give their comments if they want. :)

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
That would completely change the statement.  It is the opposite of what Florian 
wrote.  Are we going to reopen discussion about the issue again?
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sun, 7 August, 2011 13:44:24
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots


 The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk
 involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is
 deemed low.

This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to 
legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever 
motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. 
I'd 
suggest saying:


The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots 
of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical 
risk facing software projects.


S.
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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I thought this issue had been settled with 
It is noted that several members of the SC acknowledge the existence of a 
legal 
risk to display screenshots of LibreOffice on Windows, but the risk is deemed 
low, therefore, while screenshots on GNU/Linux should be the default ones, 
screenshots on Windows are also possible.  


The new wording says the same thing in a much more  professional and slick way 
imo.  Marketing and Websites need to be able to use a different platform from 
Documentation due to their outputs having very different aims and lifespans.  
The new wording allows that.  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sat, 6 August, 2011 10:15:21
Subject: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

Hello,

as one of my tasks from the previous SC calls, I promised to come up with a 
slightly modified statement regarding the use of screenshots.

Here it is:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken 
on Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering 
Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for 
screenshots 
on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low.
==

Does this reflect everyone's wishes?

What I want to say is:

1. The preferred solution for screenshots is to do them with Linux, but any 
other operating system is acceptable as well.

2. There is a small legal risk, but we doubt it is of practical relevance.

Any native speaker who wants to improve the wording, feel free, but please do 
not completely change the meaning. :-) The following two items have to be in 
that statement.

I'd like to proceed to voting on the statement soon.

Thanks,
Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think the new wording is much clearer.  

Bullet-points definitely helped imo.  The wording seems about as smooth and 
straight forward as it is likely to get without changing the meanings.  It's a 
LOT less turgid than many simialr things i have read but seems to deal with the 
legal and Branding issues afaik.  


Has the marketing or Branding team (or reps here) approved of either this 
version or the original?  Since both have very much the same meanings i think 
approval of either would be good enough.  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sat, 6 August, 2011 11:47:53
Subject: [steering-discuss] addition to trademark policy

Hello,

my other task from the last SC calls was to add a note to the trademark policy 
that helps in understanding when the subline can be used.

My proposed change follows:

old version:
==
Proper Form: TDF marks should be used in their exact form, neither abbreviated 
nor combined with any other word or words. TDF has a set of acceptable logos 
for 
general use. If you are not sure where they are please inquire on our lists. 
Only the logos that bear the exact mention of the software name with the 
mention 
“The Document Foundation” are reserved for the sole and official use of TDF as 
an entity, for instance on splash screens from software builds compiled by the 
Document Foundation or DVD labels officially stemming from the Document 
Foundation. You may not use this set of logos but only the logos bearing the 
software name without the Document Foundation's mention.
==

new version:
==
Proper Form: TDF marks should be used in their exact form, neither abbreviated 
nor combined with any other word or words. TDF has a set of acceptable logos 
for 
general use. If you are not sure where they are please inquire on our lists. 
The 
logos that bear the exact mention of the software name with the mention The 
Document Foundation are reserved for two purposes:

* the sole and official use of TDF as an entity, for instance on splash screens 
from software builds compiled by the Document Foundation or on official 
materials from the legal entity itself

* the use within the Projects of the Community - like documentation, marketing 
or website - when the respective work is prepared and coordinated openly and 
transparently, on the appropriate communication channels, following the 
Foundation's and Community's principles

/Example: A publisher working on a documentation with a few selected community 
members is not eligible for use of logos with the mention The Document 
Foundation, whereas the documentation team itself may freely use it for any 
project that is coordinated on its mailing lists.

You may not use this set of logos for other than the above purposes, but only 
the logos bearing the software name without the Document Foundation's mention.
==

Does this make things clear. Shall we embed it, or can we find an easier 
wording?

Thanks,
Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Well the Documentation Team selected a theme that is very similar to a theme 
used in Xp, like their silver one, because it gives the best contrast and 
readability.  It's fairly clear that it's on gnulinux tho (imo).  

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Production#Sample_screenshots

For Marketing and Websites Teams attention-grabbing colours, activity and 
excitement are crucial.  High contrast and readability are very very low on 
their lists of requirements possibly even opposite to what will work well for 
them.  


The 3rd paragraph sets teams against each other (or ignore the SC) rather than 
encouraging them to do their best in their opposite directions.  Branding 
consistently across the teams is NOT trivial!  I don't envy them at all in 
this.  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sat, 6 August, 2011 13:57:43
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

Hi all,

Florian - thank you for this follow up :-)

Am Samstag, den 06.08.2011, 11:26 +0100 schrieb Tom Davies:
 Hi :)
 I thought this issue had been settled with 
 It is noted that several members of the SC acknowledge the existence of a 
legal 

 risk to display screenshots of LibreOffice on Windows, but the risk is deemed 
 low, therefore, while screenshots on GNU/Linux should be the default ones, 
 screenshots on Windows are also possible.  

The missing part, as David pointed out, was that only Windows has been
covered. But we have also users (thus: marketing material and
documentation) for Mac OS X users.

However, there is one tiny thing missing (to me) in Florians draft, so
I'd like to tweak it a bit. (I feel free to do so on the sc-discuss
list, since I've been originally asked to summarize the status for an
earlier meeting).

[...]


 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
[...]
 ==
 Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be 
 taken 

 on Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering 
 Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for 
screenshots 

 on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low.
 ==
 Does this reflect everyone's wishes?
 
 What I want to say is:
 
 1. The preferred solution for screenshots is to do them with Linux, but any 
 other operating system is acceptable as well.

The original issue (on the different mailing lists) also contained the
what visible desktop environment, what theming should be used.
Defining that is (in my opinion) up to the teams, so I'd like to ask the
SC to encourage the community to find a rather consistent appearance.

 2. There is a small legal risk, but we doubt it is of practical relevance.

Fully agreed.

 Any native speaker who wants to improve the wording, feel free, but please do 
 not completely change the meaning. :-) The following two items have to be in 
 that statement.

So, only the third paragraph added ... and GNU/Linux instead of Linux.

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably
be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating
system.

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk
involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is
deemed low.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g.
theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It
is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.
==

Being also a non-native speaker (English), I'm happy if someone could
proofread this as well. Thanks!

 I'd like to proceed to voting on the statement soon.

Hopefully today :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think that in the specific case of David it would be smart to invite him to 
join the sys-admin team.  I do appreciate it might not be good to allow 
everyone 
to join as and when they feel like it but David is a significant contributor to 
the docs team in that role.  If he isn't invited to join then out will be 
missing out on a lot of talent there.  Ideally there would be someone from the 
Brazilian Team too to spread the load internationally but i don't know of 
anyone 
in any other team that has shown David's level of commitment and skill in that 
particular type of role.  To be fair i am not on the Brazilian lists so they 
might have someone too. 

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
To: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 3 August, 2011 9:36:08
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

David Nelson wrote:
 My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the
 right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it
 would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not
 see things like that, but...
 
Hi David,

I indeed disagree here. The admin team for our central
infrastructure (in contrast to e.g. auxiliary sites, staging systems
etc.) will always be a small  closely-knit team of people, with
lots of mutual trust  ideally personal relations.

There's a fundamental difference between sysadmin and e.g. hacking
work, in terms of accountability, auditability, liability,
reviewability, reversibility  the probability to royally fsck
things up. So applying the same yard stick to both groups will not
work.

Let's meet in Paris  talk things through over a beer though. :)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access unacceptably slow

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
The difference is that 
1.  those other things basically work
2.  people are working on them
3.   new people are attracted to work on them

In complete contrast Base apparently has 
1.  NO-ONE working on it
2.  It doesn't work
3.  It's horribly complicated

Base is the only app that almost every question can only be solved by getting 
stuck into coding or extensively trouble-shooting and regression-testing 
dependencies.  Problems in other apps tend to be able to be solved by normal 
office users that may have no programming skills at all.  


It seems that we have 3 possible routes
1.  Ignore the problems and watch as Base continues to crumble away and lie to 
new users that we have a database program when we really don't.  

2.  Drop Base and be honest that we don't have an integrated  database program. 
 

3.  Step-up and manage.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 1 August, 2011 12:54:23
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access 
unacceptably slow


On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 19:26 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 I think most of the companies i mentioned already employ devs to work on 
 projects relevant to those organisations.  If they could each give one person 
 half a week to Base

Sure - but if they could each give one person have a week to: improving
the UI, accelerating import, fixing most annoying bugs, creating unit
tests, ...  insert any number of potential problems  - then we could
also make progress.

However - instead of this, we have people complaining and trying to
tell other people what to do :-) That actually kills developer time,
because they have to respond to the griping by pointing out the obvious
lack of resources, the way that reality is shaped - and asking people to
be more constructive with their time - by actually getting involved
fixing things.

 If some of those companies had direct control over half a dev

So - if some individuals, who have direct control over their own work
schedule, could sit down and contribute then we'd get a long way too :-)
right ?

 I don't think TDF can afford to wait until people get annoyed enough (as RMS 
 suggests) because it's easier for people to just stay with other products and 
 the rest of the Suite they come with.  A little work and leadership in taking 
 Base forwards might even attract a lot of volunteers to it instead or runing 
for 

 the hills.  

So - go for it ! you want to win eternal fame  glory, and find
yourself a well paid job hacking base: sign up now - get experienced
with the code, improve it, make noise about your success.

Failing that - your resourcing concerns belong on a single list: the
discuss list.

 Most of the co-operatives i have worked in have paid consultants, part-time 
 workers, accountants, lawyers and all the rest when and where needed. 
 Many of the ones that refused to do so folded or got absorbed.  

Fine - so start a co-operative to work on LibreOffice, and fund these
guys to do the work you want to tell them to do, and to meet your
particular priorities. Failing that, do some fund raising yourself to
get an existing bespoke development company (say Lanedo) to do the work
for you.

All the best,

Michael.

-- 
michael.me...@novell.com  , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot



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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access unacceptably slow

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
No-one has picked up that module in the last 11 months.  It doesn't look as 
though anyone is keen on doing so soon.  


Is force the only method you can think of to achieve an objective?  I think 
it's 
usually better to find an advantage that a person or organisation might gain 
from helping and helping them get excited about that.  Also i think it's better 
to focus that effort on people that have relevant skills, knowledge or 
experience or else on people and organisations that have good resources.  


TDF is in a better position to find funding and already has more resources than 
I have if it was at all interested in developing Base.  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 1 August, 2011 15:55:11
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access 
unacceptably slow

Tom,

You may have misunderstood Michael.
Your 1. will be true if no one's interested in picking up that module.
Your 2. is way too premature :) (btw; a very important segment of
LibreOffice power users use PostgreSQL or MySQL and don't use Base,
never used it even when it was first introduced inside OOo; an even
bigger segment don't use a database at all.)
Your 3. is where it seems something does not work ;) step up and
manage doesn't mean anything, imho. We have 37 different priorities to
work on; if there are developers interested in Base, they're welcome.
But you won't force anyone (and TDF does not force anyone) to work on
something it does not want or does not need. However, you might want to
step up and start to raise funds to have developers work on Base. The
doors of opportunity are wide open.

best,
Charles.


Le 01/08/2011 16:38, Tom Davies a écrit :
 Hi :)
 The difference is that 
 1.  those other things basically work
 2.  people are working on them
 3.   new people are attracted to work on them
 
 In complete contrast Base apparently has 
 1.  NO-ONE working on it
 2.  It doesn't work
 3.  It's horribly complicated
 
 Base is the only app that almost every question can only be solved by getting 
 stuck into coding or extensively trouble-shooting and regression-testing 
 dependencies.  Problems in other apps tend to be able to be solved by normal 
 office users that may have no programming skills at all.  
 
 
 It seems that we have 3 possible routes
 1.  Ignore the problems and watch as Base continues to crumble away and lie 
 to 

 new users that we have a database program when we really don't.  
 
 2.  Drop Base and be honest that we don't have an integrated  database 
program.  

 
 3.  Step-up and manage.  
 
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com
 To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 1 August, 2011 12:54:23
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record 
 access 

 unacceptably slow
 
 
 On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 19:26 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 I think most of the companies i mentioned already employ devs to work on 
 projects relevant to those organisations.  If they could each give one 
 person 

 half a week to Base
 
 Sure - but if they could each give one person have a week to: improving
 the UI, accelerating import, fixing most annoying bugs, creating unit
 tests, ...  insert any number of potential problems  - then we could
 also make progress.
 
 However - instead of this, we have people complaining and trying to
 tell other people what to do :-) That actually kills developer time,
 because they have to respond to the griping by pointing out the obvious
 lack of resources, the way that reality is shaped - and asking people to
 be more constructive with their time - by actually getting involved
 fixing things.
 
 If some of those companies had direct control over half a dev
 
 So - if some individuals, who have direct control over their own work
 schedule, could sit down and contribute then we'd get a long way too :-)
 right ?
 
 I don't think TDF can afford to wait until people get annoyed enough (as RMS 
 suggests) because it's easier for people to just stay with other products 
 and 

 the rest of the Suite they come with.  A little work and leadership in 
 taking 

 Base forwards might even attract a lot of volunteers to it instead or runing 
 for 

 the hills.  
 
 So - go for it ! you want to win eternal fame  glory, and find
 yourself a well paid job hacking base: sign up now - get experienced
 with the code, improve it, make noise about your success.
 
 Failing that - your resourcing concerns belong on a single list: the
 discuss list.
 
 Most of the co-operatives i have worked in have paid consultants, part-time 
 workers, accountants, lawyers and all the rest when and where needed. 
 Many of the ones that refused to do so folded or got absorbed.  
 
 Fine - so start a co-operative to work

Re: [steering-discuss] offsite website backup

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think TDF have a lot more than just 1 server but presumably would always 
appreciate another mirror.  As Florian says, the website mailing list would 
have 
far more info about all that.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 1 August, 2011 9:59:12
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] offsite website backup

On 01/08/2011 10:50, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,

 Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-08-01 10:50:
 Does the TDF have an offsite server that hosts the website in case the
 main server needs to go down for maintenance?

 can you please redirect that question to the website list? 
 steering-discuss is the wrong place for it :)

 Florian

My apologies.

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: trademark use request

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks Alex.  It's always good to hear the legal fact rather than the rest of 
us 
just guessing at what seems reasonable.  Presumably the org has to be spelled 
out in full?  Can it say on behalf of TDF?  Something like  

The LibreOffice trademark is registered to Freies Office Deutschland Verein on 
behalf of The Document Foundation. ?

For some reason your post arrived in my inbox a long long time after it 
normally 
'should' have done.  I think it's my @#a! email client as it has happened to a 
few other posts too but i am still not happy with the idea of changing it.  

Apols and regards from
Tom :)





From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sun, 31 July, 2011 11:03:50
Subject: [steering-discuss] Re: trademark use request

Le 31/07/11 10:21, Florian Effenberger a écrit :

Hi Florian,


 legally, the German association Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the
 current trademark holder, as TDF doesn't exist as legal entity yet.

Ideally then, reference should be made to the FOD Verein and not to TDF.
Not mentioning the name of the rights holder at all opens the person who
publicises such a mark on their product to allegations of fraud,
trademark infringement, and false assertion of rights (jurisdiction
dependent as always of course), including via third parties (i.e. it
doesn't require TDF to take positive action). Trademark law can be a
real pain at times :-)). In general, this is relatively low risk stuff.

Alex


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Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think the SC just voted on the 600 euroes excess.  I think the full amount 
might need another vote.  Coincidentally i think there is an Sc Meeting 
tonight(?) so it could be done quite quickly there?  Perhaps vote on the full 
amount first and if that gets defeated then vote on the excess?  


I think there also needs to be some thought about Base.  Should it be dropped 
from LO since it's not getting any attention?  If TDF wants to keep Base is it 
prepared to recruit an employee  as a dev or legal expert or team-leader (or a 
bit of all those) to properly build a good team to deal with the vast amount of 
complex issues that Base is suffering from?  I think the money is there and 
should be used.  I think Some supporters such as RedHat, Cannonical and Google 
might be willing to help but i think TDF needs to drive it.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Drew Jensen d...@baseanswers.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 17:03:15
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 17:46 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35:
  Now you are getting me really confused.
 
  Who decided what, and who is paying what ?
 
 the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an 
 independent entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime 
 is the legal entity behind TDF, decided that in their board of 
 director's meeting.
 
 So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC.

OK - that sounds as if the decision by the FrODev BOD was to expend the
1,000 euro from the FrODev account, not the the TDF account, yes?

 
 However, since more money then offered by the German association is 
 needed, and the weekend was for the TDF admins, 

Actual costs exceeded projection by 60%.

 I'd like to ask if the 
 SC is agreeing to spending some of the TDF money for it.

Is the SC agreeing then to pay the entire 1,600 euro from the TDF fund
now, or just the 600 excess?

Thanks,

Drew


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Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
So the work was done for TDF but the decision to do the work was taken by one 
of 
the communities.  


I thought the event was a different one.  One that had been discussed in here.  
I remember people using the mailing list to meet up for further discussion at 
the end of one of the days but i guess that was a different event?  


Since TDF does have plenty of money to cover the short-fall i think it should.  
We don't want to discourage people from doing work that benefits TDF!  I do 
agree with David's earlier post that it would be good for the SC and BoD know 
about events in advance.

If the SC or BoD had been asked in advance then i'm fairly sure they would have 
agreed to pay about half if the other half was being paid by a community group. 
 
The problem is that the decision should have been put to the SC/BoD in advance. 
 
I think agree to it this time but avoid it in the future?
Regards from
Tom :)






From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 16:46:03
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

Hi,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35:
 Now you are getting me really confused.
 
 Who decided what, and who is paying what ?

the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an 
independent 
entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime is the legal entity 
behind TDF, decided that in their board of director's meeting.

So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC.

However, since more money then offered by the German association is needed, and 
the weekend was for the TDF admins, I'd like to ask if the SC is agreeing to 
spending some of the TDF money for it.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
for the full amount this time because TDF can afford it this time.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 17:24:31
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

Hi,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 18:06:
 Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get 
it:-)
 Thanks for the clarification

actually, I would like to ask to cover everything from the TDF account, as this 
would be fair.

Of course, if the German association wants to spend the 1,600 € from their 
account, then only the 600 € are needed, but from my gut feeling, paying 
everything from the TDF account would make more sense to me.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access unacceptably slow

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I imagined the different lists would take the discussion in different 
directions 
relevant to their own part of this problem.

I think most of the companies i mentioned already employ devs to work on 
projects relevant to those organisations.  If they could each give one person 
half a week to Base, to collaborate much as volunteers do, then we could get 
somewhere other than backwards = which is where we are going right now and have 
been for a long time.  It's going to need more than just 1 talented person to 
sort it out because skills are needed in different directions.  Base is a major 
blocker to desktop ( small office) GnuLinux uptake (ok, games are and 
multimedia too but that's outside our scope).  


If some of those companies had direct control over half a dev in LibreOffice 
then they could offer a very high level of support to clients in the future 
especially if the half had an indepth knowledge of Base by then.  


I don't think TDF can afford to wait until people get annoyed enough (as RMS 
suggests) because it's easier for people to just stay with other products and 
the rest of the Suite they come with.  A little work and leadership in taking 
Base forwards might even attract a lot of volunteers to it instead or runing 
for 
the hills.  


Most of the co-operatives i have worked in have paid consultants, part-time 
workers, accountants, lawyers and all the rest when and where needed.  Many of 
the ones that refused to do so folded or got absorbed.  

Regards from
Tom :)






From: Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org; Tom Davies 
tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: us...@global.libreoffice.org; documentat...@global.libreoffice.org; 
hc.stoellin...@aon.at; t...@tomcloyd.com
Sent: Wed, 27 July, 2011 18:44:25
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access 
unacceptably slow

Hi Tom,

On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 18:07 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 We need to attract some devs to this project.  Preferably paid devs because 
 there is a bit of a quagmire trying to work out which patches have which 
 licences and so which cannot be incorporated into the LGPL and which can.

Ho hum; the legal / ownership angle is not so difficult to sort out;
usually finding  fixing the bugs is more problematic ;-)

Your suggestion to get lots of companies to fund more developers is a
great one - but can be organisationally problematic. Ultimately I
suggest the most reliable way is to find and/or encourage new developers
to do the work. There is a great spot for someone to love  'own' base
in the project, it's a responsible role, and we'd really appreciate
someone to do it.

   I think those researchers could move into coding or documentation after 
 even perhaps just 3 - 6 months with any luck.  How could we get this going 
 forwards before the whole Suite falls over due to the 1 app's failures?  

This is like RMS' amusing 'myth of the starving genius' :-) If there is
a serious bug that annoys enough people: particularly people that are
able to understand and build databases (which are near being programmers
anyway) - then *surely* if it matters enough, one or other of them will
start to dig into the code to fix it.

There is no magic bullet here, or other white knights coming to fix
bugs in LibreOffice I'm afraid. If we want it done, we have to do it
ourselves. If you know what a database is, and how to use it, then you
are probable quite able to invest some time in building the latest code
and having a poke at it.

Sorry,

Michael.

-- 
michael.me...@novell.com  , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot
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[steering-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access unacceptably slow

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
We need to attract some devs to this project.  Preferably paid devs because 
there is a bit of a quagmire trying to work out which patches have which 
licences and so which cannot be incorporated into the LGPL and which can.  It 
needs people that work like devs but also people that like to research like 
documenters.  Could we get Wikipedia, Google, RedHat, Cannonical and others to 
stump up some cash for this?  Could TDF itself afford to pay for it?  I think 
we 
need a couple of full-time paid researchers and a paid dev to start things 
moving.  I think those researchers could move into coding or documentation 
after 
even perhaps just 3 - 6 months with any luck.  How could we get this going 
forwards before the whole Suite falls over due to the 1 app's failures?  

Regards from
Tom :)






From: Heinrich Stoellinger hc.stoellin...@aon.at
To: us...@global.libreoffice.org; Tom Cloyd t...@tomcloyd.com
Sent: Wed, 27 July, 2011 17:53:40
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base record access unacceptably slow

Hello,
I have been using OpenOffice and now LibreOffice with BASE for a long
time. My MySQL database serves a windband and all the issues related
to such an animal (eg. repertoire, uniforms, members, contacts, concert
programmes, etc., etc.).
Of course my tables are small compared to what I used to see when working
with DB2 at large IBM-customers. Big tables might have some 30.000
tuples in them, so just looking for a particular item using a filter
such as like name* never takes long.
On the other hand, I have been complaining about problems using the
report writer for serial letters. Conditions based on variables in a
table are not handled correctly in the Linux 3.3.3 version (they seem
th work under Windows!!).
I REALLY depend on BASE not falling behind or on its face altogether.
So I also think that some emphasis should be place on it. Unfortunately
I neither have the knowledge nor the time to devote myself to such an
effort...
Regards from Austria
H. Stoellinger


On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:30:46 +0200, Tom Cloyd t...@tomcloyd.com wrote:

 Don,

 So, for 6 months, OO (I presume) and now LO (is it that old?) have been
 promoting a db which doesn't work. I have over 10 full time days
 invested in this, and I'm watching it fall apart in front of me,
 apparently irretrievably. I understand LO has NO programmer working on
 BASE, and with the lack of protest see on the list no one's using it anyway.

 I'm baffled by all this. This thing is actually far more stable and
 reliable than I ever experienced Access to be when I used it daily for
 about 5 years. The interface designer works well. There's just not much
 to be distressed by and a lot to like, but...it looks like a dead dog.
 This is sad, and perplexing, and ultimately irrational.

 For me personally, it's also desperate - or rather *I* am. I'm doing
 this thing to support my work with a non-profit educational group
 associated with the Wikimedia Foundation (the folks who manage
 Wikipedia). I only have so much time, and I've invested a lot in this
 project. Now I essentially have little or nothing to show for it, right
 when we're working hard against an utterly inflexible deadline.

 I see no reason to hope for a fix with Base, and when my record count
 doubles again, later this week, it'll take almost 5 minutes to locate a
 record that's at the other end of the db, I need an alternative.

 Does anyone have any suggestions?

 More specifically,

 1. Are there any alternative graphic interface tools that even
 approximate Base's functionality (other than Access)? The last time I
 looked - a number of weeks ago, I didn't come up with any equivalents.

 2. How feasible is it simply to use SQL? I never done this, so I have no
 idea.

 Since I'm reasonable comfortable with Ruby, I'm trying to think of a way
 to port this thing to a db engine that has a ruby driver (which HYPERSQL
 doesn't - tells us something, doesn't it?), and do it all from a command
 line. Painful thought, but better than grinding to a complete halt.

 I'm eager to read people's thoughts on all this.

 And thanks, Alex and Don, for your response.

 Tom



 On 07/27/2011 06:34 AM, Don Myers wrote:
 I've used base ever since it was first offered. About 6 months ago a
 Java update (I'm running Ubuntu 11.04) slowed it down to a pathetic
 speed. The latest Java update didn't really help much. I was hoping it
 would be fixed that update, or that the LibreOffice folks would find a
 solution

 On 07/27/2011 07:03 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
 Le 27/07/11 10:16, Tom Cloyd a écrit :

 Hi Tom,


 Just to move the record pointer from the first to the last record takes
 almost exactly 20 seconds. To do a search of the beginning of the main
 text field for a 6 character string that isn't there (i.e., the engine
 searches to the very end of the table) takes 2 minutes and 5 seconds.
 You can imagine how long it takes to locate and update 10 records. This
 is 

[steering-discuss] Fw: [libreoffice-users] Slovak site

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Please can you use Reply to all when replying to this or find some other way 
of including 

pe...@kubek.sk
as he is not subscribed to this list (yet)
Regards from
Tom :)



- Forwarded Message 
From: Peter Kubek pe...@kubek.sk
To: us...@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Wed, 20 July, 2011 8:36:10
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Slovak site

Hello,

my name is Peter Kubek and I am from Slovak republic.
I am owner domain www.libreoffice.sk

Can I work on slovak site? sk.libreoffice.org?

Thank You

Peter Kubek


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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: SC call on 27th

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think other people already have permissions set so they can unlock (or 
whatever) the room?  That was about the only trouble last time i think but it 
was a total blocker at the time.  This time people have permissions?
Regards from
Tom :)




From: Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
To: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 20 July, 2011 6:56:21
Subject: [steering-discuss] Re: SC call on 27th

Hi Florian, all!

Am Dienstag, den 19.07.2011, 10:35 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
 Hello,
 
 I will not be available for the SC call on the 27th (Wednesday, 1600 
 UTC), and would like to ask my deputy Christoph Noack to step in.

Oh, I have to check that - I'll have some vacation and will be on the
road most of the time. Will report back - so my kind request to the
other SC guys is to join anyway (consensus related).


 FYI: The next call is this Saturday, 1400 UTC, and I will join it. The 
 call on the 27th is the one after that.

Thanks! For me, its either family birthday party or SC call ... let's
see how the part evolves ;-)))

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [steering-discuss] Call for SC-vote: Using (Windows) Screnshots in TDF materials

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1 to all this.  

The agreed wording, that keeps getting repeated, allows  screen-shots to be 
taken in MS Windows.  The wording also cleverly allows screen-shots on other 
platforms.  


The perceived issue with MS is that MS Office is possibly their main income 
stream.  People might buy 2 or 3 versions of MSO to upgrade that while only 
upgrading their OS once.  If MS see TDF as a threat to that income stream then 
we can expect them to try to reduce that threat.  Hopefully they might do that 
as fantastically well as they manage to build stable, secure products but we 
can't rely on that.  


Oracle fell 'easily' because it wasn't a fight they were particularly 
interested 
in but with MS its a crucial part of their business, especially if we get onto 
the Cloud or when people realise the Cloud is a pipe-dream and deeply flawed.

Regards from
Tom :)






From: Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 18 July, 2011 18:30:06
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Call for SC-vote: Using (Windows) Screnshots in 
TDF materials

Hi
my vote is to use MS Windows screenshots, for windows-only situations (as in
the install)
Thanks and regards

2011/7/18 André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net

 Hi,

 in our latest SC-Call we discussed the issue about taking and publishing
 Screenshots on windows. As we had no quorum in the call, I'd ask every SC
 member / deputy to vote on the statement we agreed in the call.

 The statement is:

 It is noted that several members of the SC acknowledge the existence of a
 legal risk to display screenshots of LibreOffice on Windows, but the risk is
 deemed low, therefore, while screenshots on GNU/Linux should be the default
 ones, screenshots on Windows are also possible.


 Meeting minutes are at:
 http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/TDF/**Steering_Committee_Meetings#**
Minutes_2011-07-13http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-07-13


 regards,

 André

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-- 
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The Document Foundation

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[steering-discuss] wikipedia

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I found a page about Calc in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org_Calc
but it's heavily branded as the OpenOffice version.  Writer has 2 pages.  One 
for OpenOffice and 1 for LibreOffice.

Would it be better to move towards having just 1 page for each application and 
then link to OpenOffice, LibreOffice or NeoOffice when appropriate?  Specific 
pages such as the OpenOffice Calc page could then be extremely short and very 
specific since most of the stuff would already be either in  the main 
cross-product page for Calc or in Apache's documentation?

I imagine each of the 2 lists will diverge in particular points but i don't 
think everything needs to be repeated on both lists.
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks Christian Lohmaier  David ;)  [bows]
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 14 July, 2011 8:58:46
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-07-12 15.54:
 Ahah, this is the email i have been looking for.  I really like the idea of a 
 link so that people can check the latest news about progress.  
 
 It is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, currently in 
 the 

 process of being established by leading members of the OpenOffice.org 
 Community.

that change has been incorporated now.

Thanks a lot,
Florian

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Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I agree with Italo that the different teams have different requirements to 
achieve different results.  


Marketing and Website is tactical and dynamic, able to change fairly quickly.  
Sometimes being highly responsive, sometimes anticipating, sometimes getting 
far 
ahead of the game.  Quick, attractive, flashy.  I tend to think of knights and 
bishops.  Mostly knights.  Documentation is a lot more static and less easy to 
change.  I tend to think of rooks and that castling manoeuvre to keep the king 
safe.  Very different aims.  


People in Documentation tend to aim at being consistent within documentation.  
Marketing and the website often needs to show off the variety and diversity but 
that would just be confusing and distracting within documentation.  


Regards from
Tom :)






From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 13:00:37
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi,

So I'd just like to bring this thread back to its real topic:
platforms used to take screenshots for documentation, website images
and marketing material. I updated the SC confcall agenda item,
proposing this motion for discussion:

Do we want to see screenshots taken indifferently from Windows, Mac
and *nix used in LibreOffice documentation, website images and
marketing material, to demonstrate our true cross-platform vocation?
Or, do we want to impose preferred use of Linux/Gnome for screenshots
and only accept screenshots from other OS's and GUIs when strictly
necessary for particular cases?

-- 
David Nelson

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Re: [steering-discuss] Reminder: Next SC call in 4,5 hours

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ahah, now i see the point of David's post.  I think item 2 is not impartially 
worded.  It seems to attempt to make people's minds up for them = to impose 
random chaos in the documentation!  


Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 12:33:04
Subject: [steering-discuss] Reminder: Next SC call in 4,5 hours

Hello,

this is just a short reminder that the next SC call will be in 4,5
hours, at 1600 UTC. Details and an editable agenda are at

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Next_Call

Looking forward to hearing you!

Florian

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Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Well it's really Christian Lohmaier's idea and roughly in one of the directions 
David was suggesting but thanks for the flowers (as they say).
Thanks and regards from
Tom :)






From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 10:59:39
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-07-12 15.54:
 It is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, currently in 
 the 

 process of being established by leading members of the OpenOffice.org 
 Community.

indeed, I like this variant! If no one objects, I will change the page
tomorrow.

Florian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Request for changes of Membership Committee

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Would his description be more accurate if someone changed it from ... 
David is the LibreOffice community representative in Brazil.
to 
David is a LibreOffice community representative in Brazil.

It is difficult to claim someone is representing any community accurately as 
the 
whole point about a community is that there are many diverse, probably 
conflicting, opinions and representing all those opinions in a fair way is very 
difficult and possibly unlikely to happen.  We do what we can but never achieve 
perfection (hopefully).  It is even difficult if the community votes on who is 
to 'represent them'.  

Regards from
Tom :)




From: Claudio F Filho filh...@broffice.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 15:01:27
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Request for changes of Membership Committee

Hi

Em 13-07-2011 09:51, David Emmerich Jourdain escreveu:
 when I talked to André about helping the MC, I want to make clear that just
 offer me 'cause I understand that my fluency in some languages ​​can help in
 the process. If you may evaluate, you can talk with Olivier, with Jesus,
 with Claudio and some others that could talk to me (in person or not) that I
 usually was the interpreter for almost everyone from BrOffice, in the FOSS
 events. Of course, switching between some languages ​​during three or four
 days, almost makes you forget to speak your primary language, but this
 doesn't happen in the MC.

In my view, David is a good translator, indeed.

Concerning to the MC, I think that there must have *Web of Trust* and, here, we 
got problems in finding a connector for this WoT concerning to David. I think 
we 
need people without any problems inside that WoT.

Since the begining of TDF, he is using an untrue description in his profile at 
TDF's website [1]. I have warned core@ already, but this profile is still there.
[1]http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/

As he cited my name, this is my position about him.

Best,
Claudio

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Re: [steering-discuss] Request for changes of Membership Committee

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
All things, however unlikely, are possibly possible.  I agree that we shouldn't 
spend much more time on this.  I just wondered if there was a quick fix to 
solve the issue but if it doesn't fix the problem  then there is no need to 
drag 
the argument back into the spotlight.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@varekai.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Cc: filh...@broffice.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 15:27:10
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Request for changes of Membership Committee

snip / 

It *could*, but it doesn't mean it *will*, right?

Rgds

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)






From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 16:34:05
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi Italo, Drew,

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote:
 As a member of the SC, I would personally avoid to have the SC discuss this
 issue (which, in my opinion, is not an issue). This is something that teams
 should discuss internally, and I see the SC get into the discussion only if
 something unreasonable happens.

 I will confirm and support this choice during the SC meeting.

I noted your change to the agenda item:

(Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been
worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list)

I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the
subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from
multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed
legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability
arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid
matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions.

-- 
David Nelson

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think the question should be 

Can the documentation team continue to be consistent and use themes that it 
previously agreed or should it switch to using Windows and therefore make 
documentation have randomly different themes and OSes for screen-shots?

With possible sub-questions to be asked 
If Windows is chosen then can the SC agree to TDF taking full responsibility 
if 
any legal issues crop up as a result?
If Windows is chosen then should the nearly completed guides be re-done to use 
screen-shots from Windows only?


Regards from
Tom :)





From: André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 16:45:38
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi David,

Am 13.07.2011 17:34, schrieb David Nelson:
 I noted your change to the agenda item:
 
 (Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been
 worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list)
 
 I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the
 subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from
 multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed
 legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability
 arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid
 matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions.

I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you 
comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC would 
think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and requests a 
general decision on the screenshots independent from possible legal 
implications.

For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that the 
question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before the SC's 
decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual question is.

regards,

André



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Re: [steering-discuss] SC call notes for 2011-07-13

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I don't think it was controversial!  An issue was flagged up but just as 
something to notice in passing rather than blocking David from helping do good 
work!  Has the limit on the number of people that could usefully help been 
reached or could David be allowed in?
Regards from
Tom :)




From: André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 20:09:41
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] SC call notes for 2011-07-13

Hi,

Am 13.07.2011 18:38, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
 Hello all,
 
 Here are the notes for our latest SC call:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-07-13
3

discussion about change in the MC seems to be missing. From my memory it was to 
approve the requested change, but as my nomination of David (E.J.) was 
controversal we accept instead Simon's offer to help with the elections.

This will be an interim solution anway, as we would need to have MC elections 
after BoD elections.

regards,

André

(sorry for so short notice - still need to send out welcome messages to new 
mebers :) )

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Re: [steering-discuss] SC call notes for 2011-07-13

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I had to work quite hard to find something to criticise!
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 18:07:45
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] SC call notes for 2011-07-13

Hello Tom,

I don't use Word but I used different wiki formattings...

best,
Charles.

2011/7/13 Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk

 Hi :)
 Fantastic :))  A good result for all concerned!  Thanks all that attended,
 especially Charles for taking the notes and Florian for arranging the
 meeting.
 The numbering appears to have been done in Word, or perhaps in accordance
 with
 Zen principles?  A minor issue that has probably already been tidied up by
 the
 time you delete/read this email :)
 Many thanks and regards from
 Tom :)





 
 From: Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 17:50:36
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] SC call notes for 2011-07-13

 Hi Charles,

 thanks for the minutes - although I'd like to mention that I missed by a
 few minutes due to some day work issue :-\ Thus, I removed my name from
 the list of attendees.

 Just as an info ...

 Cheers,
 Christoph


 Am Mittwoch, den 13.07.2011, 18:38 +0200 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
  Hello all,
 
  Here are the notes for our latest SC call:
 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-07-13
3
 3
 
  best,
  Charles.
 



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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1 
to the idea of this being voted on by the SC/BoD without re-arguing the points.

I had hoped the discussion would just congratulate the Documentation Team on 
neatly avoiding potential pitfalls that would take months to fix if MS used it 
as a side-issue in a any future dealings with them.  It makes sense to use 
primarily Windows screen-shots in marketing, for the reasons Italo stated, but 
Documentation takes a LOT longer to fix.  


Inevitably there will be specific sections that focus on individual OSes but 
the 
bulk of the documentation tries to stay consistent with itself rather than look 
randomly thrown together.  A flippant vote taken in under 5 mins to change 
documentation to use Windows screen-shots would result in many months of 
hard-work for the tiny documentation team and would result in no documentation 
being out-there until that work gets re-done.  Right now there are questions 
about whether to bother continuing to work at the documentation at all until 
after the SC/BoD has decided to tell the team how to do their work.  


If the SC/BoD wants official documentation to be done in a way that demands 
using Windows screen-shots and also relinquishes any responsibility for the 
completed work so that individuals might be left facing the full wrath of MS as 
individuals then i think we can forget about any documentation ever getting 
done!  


The question is really about whether to support the Documentation Team or to 
tell them to re-do everything in Windows and then not support them at all!  
Have 
they really wasted their time and effort doing a bad job?
Regards from
Tom :)







From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 12:10:42
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi Florian,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 we have a public session every week.

Oh, sure, but Michael seemed to feel that this might be better
discussed in a private session? Would that be the intention? I can
sort-of understand that, given the kind of debate that might ensue?

In any case, I'll add it to the next agenda and thank you for your
permission for that.

-- 
David Nelson

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
I totally agree with all of that :))  It's a relief even if it's not the 
finalised vote.  Thanks Italo :)
Regards from
Tom :)




From: Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 14:09:56
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Tom Davies wrote:

 I had hoped the discussion would just congratulate the Documentation Team on
 neatly avoiding potential pitfalls that would take months to fix if MS used it
 as a side-issue in a any future dealings with them.  It makes sense to use
 primarily Windows screen-shots in marketing, for the reasons Italo stated, but
 Documentation takes a LOT longer to fix.

Sorry, but I don't see why we should mix two completely different issues. The 
documentation team sets the rules for documentation, and I don't see why the SC 
should change these rules if they are - and they are - well thought.

On the other hand, marketing has different - short term - needs, which are 
important for the project but should not be taken as a rule for the entire 
project. Marketing, sometimes, is very tactical, because of the changing 
situation of the outside environment.

Documentation, on the other hand, is totally strategical, and has long term 
objectives and rules. So, the two projects should follow two paths according to 
their short or long term objectives.

In my opinion, documentation screenshots can be entirely Linux (unless there is 
a specific feature on a different OS).

At the same time, screenshots that we provide to the media can be entirely 
Windows (while on the web we can post both Linux and Windows in order to give a 
choice).

-- Italo Vignoli
tel: +39.348.5653829
VoIP: +39.02.320621813
it...@libreoffice.it
skype italovignoli

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Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ahah, this is the email i have been looking for.  I really like the idea of a 
link so that people can check the latest news about progress.  

It is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, currently in the 
process of being established by leading members of the OpenOffice.org 
Community.
Regards from
Tom :)






From: Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 13:56:53
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 3:59 AM, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote:

 I'm assuming this the item you're talking about:

 It is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, created
 by leading members of the OpenOffice.org Community.

Why not change it to ... currently in the process of being
established ... and link to your blogpost describing the current
status?
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/07/12/status-of-establishing-the-foundation/


ciao
Christian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
At some point i would like to see a mix of screen-shots done using different 
themes and different OSes but done in a planned way rather than just looking 
accidental and unprofessional.  It could look very artistically pleasing if 
done 
with some consideration or it could just look messy if done without any 
thought.  At the moment there are a few people that focus on the wording and 
just mark where they want screen-shots updated.  Some people have focused on 
screen-shots to the point of learning an unfamiliar OS although he has moved to 
doing both screen-shots and being a word-smith.
Regards from
Tom :)




From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 15:59:20
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi Italo, *,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote:
 In my opinion, documentation screenshots can be entirely Linux (unless there
 is a specific feature on a different OS).

My feeling about this (and I *believe* that Jean Weber agrees) is that
documentation contributors should have the option of contributing
screenshots indifferently from Mac, Linux or Windows - although it
would probably be preferable to maintain consistency within a given
guide.

Firstly, this makes it clear that LibreOffice is mult-platform and
consistent across platforms.

Secondly, we want to keep the barrier for new contributors as low as
possible, and not *oblige* them to install new software in order to
work in documentation. This way, hopefully, we can get a lot more
people involved.

These are the key reasons why I'm asking for the SC to take a
position, because we've been meeting quite a bit of opposition from a
relatively small number of people for quite some time now (who want
screenshots taken under Linux only), and it would be nice to get the
issue cleared up one way or another.

I could point out that I'm a daily Linux user myself, but I don't
think we should be dogmatic about it.

-- 
David Nelson

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Re: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
The images to the right might need to be moved up a little bit too in order to 
keep the page looking tidy.  I think just remove the bullet point and see how 
the page looks.
Regards from
Tom :)




From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 11 July, 2011 15:10:11
Subject: [steering-discuss] wording on TDF website

Hello,

I received some complaints that the wording on the TDF website
(http://www.documentfoundation.org) is not accurate.

While the meta tag correctly states The Document Foundation has the
mission of facilitating the evolution of the LibreOffice Community into
a new, open, independent, and meritocratic organization over the next
few months, the website itself says that TDF is already a foundation,
which is not totally correct.

I therefore propose we change that text slightly, until we are legally
established.

Any proposals? Shall we just remove the first bullet point for the moment?

Florian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It is a complex area of Law in most countries.  It might be even more than 1 
area since we might be dealing with  intellectual property rights, other 
copyright issues, patents  contracts.  


We can easily avoid the whole legal mess by avoiding Windows and Apple 
screen-shots.  We can just use screen-shots from gnulinux distros as the 
documentation team was happily doing up until Jean popped off on holiday.  
There 
are sometimes slight differences but the documentation team has been able to 
work-around these either through text or by editing the screen-shots a bit.  


Most companies that have to worry about this sort of thing employ a legal 
department.  I don't think TDF can afford to do that.  I also don't think we 
can 
afford to take the word of any individuals about how seriously we need to take 
this sort of issue.  


So, i would personally recommend that we do as the documentation team agreed to 
do ages ago and just avoid the potential danger area completely by using 
screen-shots from organisations that honour copyleft agreements.  


However, i agree with Alex that we need some sort of statement from the SC to 
settle the issue at least until the BoD can make a 'permanent' ruling.  


Apols and regards from
Tom :)





From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 8 July, 2011 9:11:10
Subject: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

Le 06/07/11 11:48, Tom Davies a écrit :

Everyone : To me, the point has more to do with SC communication. Once
again, a topic has raised its head that I considered dealt with, and
now it is back on the table.

Although not a member of the SC, the question of the legality of
screenshot usage and associated platforms for making them has become
important enough IMO for a decision to be clearly stated by the SC, so I
am submitting this question as a topic for discussion to you all.

If there is already a decision somewhere in the archives, or on the
wiki, could someone from the SC please point us to it ?

If not, please consider this question for discussion as quickly as
possible and issue a statement.

Alex


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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)

In the MS vs TomTom case significant 'damages' were awarded to MS because 
TomTom 
were using a file-system that could be read by Windows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._TomTom
http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._TomTom_%282008,_USA%29
TomTom 'should' have been paying MS for the privilege of selling a product that 
worked on MS systems.  


The issue about Alfresco is a side-issue.  It's about trying to disrupt 
work-flow and doing so 'behind the back' of the established team-leader.  While 
David  Jean have spent months setting up good work-flow with lots of 
discussion 
in the team Gary just suddenly decided to throw that out and tell new people to 
use his personal inadequate systems.  The team seems to be re-asserting itself 
now at last.  


The legal issue about screen-shots is more important.  Should we risk using 
stuff that some people that have legal experience or knowledge tell us is risky 
or should we stick to using safer screen-shots that look almost identical 
anyway?  I realise that almost is the key-word there but since everyone uses 
different themes and skins it's impossible to make it all identical for 
everyone.  


Regards from
Tom :)
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Re: [steering-discuss] sponsoring for the Hackfest

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think i would favour Italo's pasta.  Does anyone remember the BBC's April 1st 
documentary on Italian 'vineyard's that supposedly grew pasta instead of 
grapes?  Germany is famous for many things but Italy wins on pasta.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 6 July, 2011 9:44:58
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] sponsoring for the Hackfest

Hi,

Italo Vignoli wrote on 2011-07-05 16.13:
 I have volunteered for cooking (actually, hacking) pasta at noon, but if
 someone else covers it on Saturday I am more than happy, and I will
 concentrate on hacking pasta on Sunday (if no one objects, of course).

I definitely will join that session. :-) We could do load balancing with
a pasta cluster? :-)

Florian

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[steering-discuss] Fw: screen-shots Documentation Team

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It is probably just me being paranoid.  I'm sure the people in Documentation 
Team are robust and intelligent enough to stand their ground.  There are a few 
new people that are very active and wouldn't appreciate being pulled in the 
wrong direction.  


It would be great to have a few relevant links or something quotable.
Regards from
Tom :)




- Forwarded Message 
From: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 6 July, 2011 10:48:31
Subject: screen-shots Documentation Team


Hi 
The documentation team has been told by various people (over the past several 
months)  that taking screen-shots in Windows could put us at risk.  Since those 
people appeared to have some level of legal awareness or in some cases read and 
quoted the Windows Eulas the team decided to make it part of the re-branding 
work to protect us from that sort of vulnerability.  


Now a single individual quotes from a children's fairy story saying the sky is 
not falling, as Chicken Little imagined. and says that people have wasted time 
re-branding because MS never takes any organisations or people to court over 
patent infringements.  


Gary is also telling people to abandon the established work-flow and use his 
own 
personal websites to do the work instead of using  the Alfresco websites and 
ODFauthors places that the Documentation Team established that protect works 
under copyleft licences that were also agreed within the team.  


He has carefully timed his advice to coincide with the person the team sees as 
leader going away on holiday.  


Can anyone point me to a list of MS court actions or specific parts of the 
Windows Eula that might put us at risk?  A quick google search on the Tom Tom 
case gave me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._TomTom
Can anyone give me more relevant examples?  

The documentation team is very small and needs a lot of support right now.  
David is doing great work at developing the functionality of the Alfresco sites 
and i had hoped that we could just get on with doing the work while Jean was 
away rather than dealing with a power-grab and  disruptive actions seemingly 
designed to drive morale through the floor.  


Regards from
Tom 

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Re: [steering-discuss] Joining the OASIS Consortium

[Tom Davies]

From: sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sat, 18 June, 2011 12:51:17
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Joining the OASIS Consortium

Hi all,
On 18/06/2011 09:58, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote on 2011-06-16 08.18:
 If you do it in 2 months there will be (soon) a voted Board of Directors
 to determine this.
 
 Maybe the SC - as non-voted - only give a recommendation for the BoD and
 put it all in this direction put don't fix it.
 So it will be a (first) decision of the new BoD.
 Otherwise the BoD has to fix something they don't voted of (and maybe
 don't want to do).
 
 this is indeed a good point... what do the others think? We can give our +1 
 as 
recommendation to the new BoD, but I guess it will indeed be hard to bind them 
on decisions they have not taken.
No problem for me as long as TDF is represented.

Kind regards
Sophie


Hi :)
Some organisations vote only a 3rd of positions each time.  Specific legally 
required roles such as Company Secretary, Finance/Treasurer and Chair are 
sometimes nominated from existing board members although often the newly 
elected 
board members are included.  


Since those elections are normally held annually it means each board member is 
committing to 3 years.  So, perhaps for TDF it might be better to have the 
rolling elections every 6months with the legally required posts being voted on 
annually.  


This system ensures that 2/3rd majority are stable, established, experienced 
board members that are already up to speed on relevant issues.  It gives 
external organisations confidence that agreements are not going to be suddenly 
over-turned just after the AGM.  It helps new board members to quickly learn 
their way around.  It helps to get fresh blood and a new perspective, a new 
energy into the board without compromising stability.

I think this first time all the positions need to be voted on but hopefully 
that 
will mostly be a case of voting in people that already do a great job.  Italo, 
Sophie, Cor and of course Florian are highly visible, well regarded and do an 
excellent job but i would guess there are others i don't notice that also do 
crucially important work.

It might be another thing that is good to discuss now to present 
recommendations 
to the BoD but it might be better to wait and let them discuss this sort of 
thing after elections.  

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] Joining the OASIS Consortium

[Tom Davies]

From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Sat, 18 June, 2011 19:18:40
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Joining the OASIS Consortium

Hi,

Charles-H. Schulz wrote on 2011-06-18 16.50:
 I think that if we go down that path we'll lose some valuable time revoting
   on it. The SC's mission ends when the BoD is elected and that is very
 clear, but until then, if decisions have to be made we should not refrain
 from making them. (Although I understand the need not to rush anything - but
 joining the OASIS is not exactly a rushed decision).

well, I have no problem with deciding, but still, decisions are not binding for 
the future BoD, so we should keep that in mind. :-)

Florian


Hi :)
For things such as annual subscriptions and stuff it makes sense to deal with 
it 
now so that the BoD don't have to worry about it until next year.  The OASIS 
thing sounds like a lot of money to me but people that know what it offers are 
all saying yes, by the sounds of it, so i think maybe just do it.  

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
It would look slightly more normal as:

Please read carefully
Regards from
Tom :)






From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 16 June, 2011 6:55:06
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Francois Tigeot wrote:
 There's a small typo at the beginning of the page: Please carfeully read
 
Thx, fixed.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :
Please ignore my last email.  I didn't realise the words were part of a 
sentence 
rather than being the entire statement.  Context is everything  i should have 
checked.

It looks good already  :)
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Francois Tigeot ftig...@wolfpond.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 16 June, 2011 5:44:12
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 01:50:37AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
  If there are no objections by tonight, I'll also change the text on
  the membership application page
  
(http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/application-for-tdf-community-membership/)

  
 Done.

There's a small typo at the beginning of the page: Please carfeully read

-- 
Francois Tigeot

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Re: [steering-discuss] grammar mistake in the bylaws

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I wouldn't worry about it.  It's fine in business speak.  If you do change it 
then it needs to be more like ... 

Each organization *can appoint* a single representative to the Advisory Board 
based on a yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.
The problem then is that it's passive and business communications prefer things 
to sound active.  Trying to make it perfect would make it excessively long 
without gaining anything.  It makes sense enough as it is :)
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 15 June, 2011 11:45:50
Subject: [steering-discuss] grammar mistake in the bylaws

Hello,

is there a slight grammar mistake in the bylaws? They read

Each organization *appointing* a single representative to the Advisory Board 
based on a yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.

but should rather be

Each organization *appoints* a single representative to the Advisory Board 
based 
on a yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.

Or am I mistaken?

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
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Re: [steering-discuss] grammar mistake in the bylaws

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
I think my eyes have been going funny.
Regards from
Tom :)






From: David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Wed, 15 June, 2011 12:47:23
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] grammar mistake in the bylaws

Hi Florian,

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 18:45, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Each organization *appoints* a single representative to the Advisory Board
 based on a yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.

Correct.

-- 
David Nelson

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Re: [steering-discuss] Fwd: Google Alert - libreoffice

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I thought the GPL, LGPL  MPL were all much more permissive than the Apache 
licenses?  I thought the whole point of OpenSource was that it is 
contra-intuitive.  By insisting on intellectual freedoms, ideas are able to 
build on each other more easily.  

Regards from
Tom :)






From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 14 June, 2011 8:21:17
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Fwd: Google Alert - libreoffice

Italo,

2011/6/13 Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com

 It looks like media are on our side.

 Ask LH: Am I Missing Out By Sticking With Open Source And Not Buying
 Microsoft ... on Lifehacker Australia
 
http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2011/06/ask-lh-am-i-missing-out-by-sticking-with-open-source-and-not-buying-microsoft-office/
/
 

 The Fall Of OpenOffice And Rise Of LibreOffice on Muktware
 http://www.muktware.com/hacksheet/1399

 Bruce Byfield article on Linux Magazine linked by Muktware:

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-Decline-and-Fall-of-OpenOffice.org
g




This is indeed really good. Now, if IBM really throws in the code from Lotus
Symphony, we'll have to be prepared, as some journalists might change their
stance... Although probably not :-)

Best,

Charles.




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 italo.vign...@gmail.com
 mobile +39.348.5653829
 VoIP +39.02.320621813
 skype italovignoli

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think it is better to do the minimum that is required to make it legal and 
for 
the rest write in things like Mid-term replacements are to be covered by 
internal TDF policy which is to be reviewed regularly.  In some cases it makes 
sense to name the specific document that will cover that particular policy but 
even that can make things unnecessarily restrictive in the future.  Please 
avoid 
setting things in stone where it's not required by law.
Regards from
Tom :)






From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 14 June, 2011 8:01:36
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Hi Toki,

toki wrote on 2011-06-10 19.16:

 When I was reading German law on non-profits, my impression was the
 By-Laws had to specify how members of the board of directors, and any
 advisory board were selected, and mid-term replacements done.
 
 I don't see anything in the by-laws that specifies how mid-term
 replacements are done. Is that not legally required?

we have some rules on that, like Each member of the BoD must appoint one 
Community Member as deputy who can replace her/him in case of need, and who has 
the same rights during her/his period of absence or unavailability. or The 
Chairperson can be discharged and replaced by the BoD at any time.

However, it indeed might be needed that we incorporate some more details into 
the binding statutes we are currently preparing. I have details on this soon.

Thanks for pointing this out!
Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I thought everyone quickly checked that sort of thing anyway?  I do.  I thought 
David was making a joke out of the need for people to be a little more aware of 
one need for checking such rules.  A serious point put forwards as a joke.  

Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 14 June, 2011 7:56:24
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Hi,

Michael Meeks wrote on 2011-06-13 17.19:
 Counting votes we had: Florian, Charles, Andre, Olivier, Italo and
 Sophie voting in favour; so I've made all of the edits in the wiki.

thanks a lot, Michael! I will ask the German community to translate the changes 
back. :)

Thanks to everyone who contributed! (Oh, and David, I never thought you would 
do 
the bank account thing, don't worry ;)

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
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Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
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Re: [steering-discuss] Fwd: Google Alert - libreoffice

[Tom Davies]

From: Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Tue, 14 June, 2011 13:15:05
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Fwd: Google Alert - libreoffice

On 6/14/11 9:21 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

 This is indeed really good. Now, if IBM really throws in the code from Lotus
 Symphony, we'll have to be prepared, as some journalists might change their
 stance... Although probably not :-)

It would be nice to know what it might mean in practical terms... Throwing in 
the code might imply a huge dump of files which have little or no meaning at 
all 
(see what happened with OOo files from Oracle). In any case, we should be 
prepared to react, but I don't think that IBM will throw anything before all 
OOo 
code is there.

Italo Vignoli
italo.vign...@gmail.com
mobile +39.348.5653829
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Hi :)
1 thing it definitely would mean is a lot more articles about us, or at least 
discussing LibreOffice and TDF.  


Do people here add comments to the bottom of these articles to help get the 
articles bumped up within whichever place publishes the article?  It's an 
excellent way of correcting the inevitable inaccuracies?  I try to take care 
not 
to be excessive but i'm sure a couple wouldn't hurt.
Regards from
Tom :)
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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Someone mailed me off-list thinking it was my comment and quoted a real-world 
legal case where someone had really done what you describe.  It is an old joke 
and an obvious thing to avoid but i'm not hugely surprised one bunch of people 
got fooled into letting it happen!  It's impossible to over-estimate human 
stupidity.  

Regards from
Tom :)




- Original Message 
 From: David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Cc: steering-disc...@global.documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Sat, 11 June, 2011 6:14:45
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes
 
 HI,
 
 On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 22:22, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz  wrote:
  Otherwise, I was only going to add a clause about transferring  TDF's
  funds into my personal bank account every 6 months...
 
 For  those of you that didn't realise, that was a joke... Someone just
 mailed me  off-list who didn't seem quite sure about that... (rofl)
 
 -- 
 David  Nelson
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] FYI: Apache Incubator is now voting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I am sure you are welcome to stay in even if it's only to help iron-out any 
misunderstandings as they arise but if you don't feel comfortable then don't.  
Sounds like you have been doing good work :)
Regards from
Tom :)






From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 21:32:35
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] FYI: Apache Incubator is now voting

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 I just wanted to bring an FYI that the Apache Incubator has begun
 its voting process on accepting the OO.o proposal to become a
 podling within the Incubator.

Thanks for the update
[...]
 If you wish to make your voice heard, then I would encourage you to
 respond to the [VOTE] thread on gene...@incubator.apache.org (I would
 think gmane[2] is your best way to respond to the thread without
 having to actually subscribe).

I think I had the opportunities, as a guest fof he incubator mailing
list to expression my opinions and sometimes more ;-)
At this point, I feel it would be over-staying my welcome to interject
myself in an Apache procedural vote.

Have fun and Good luck with your brand new 'massive' baby :-)

Norbert

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Re: [steering-discuss] FYI: Apache Incubator is now voting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Thanks :)  The voting system sounds interesting.  I like the idea of 
non-binding votes for people that might not have joined as proper members yet 
but might have significant interest in the Apache Foundation.
Thanks and regards from
Tom :)





From: Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org; disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 21:09:28
Subject: [steering-discuss] FYI: Apache Incubator is now voting

Hi all,

I just wanted to bring an FYI that the Apache Incubator has begun
its voting process on accepting the OO.o proposal to become a
podling within the Incubator. At the moment, it appears to be
passing by a huge margin, with only two dissenting votes[1] at this
time.

The Apache process recognizes two types of votes:

* binding votes are from those who have a recognized ability to
participate in the process. These votes are the ones which will be
counted.

* non-binding votes are from other participants in the conversation.
Their votes are allowed as a measure and gauge over the broader
community opinion, even though they will not actually be tallied in
the final ballot.

If you wish to make your voice heard, then I would encourage you to
respond to the [VOTE] thread on gene...@incubator.apache.org (I would
think gmane[2] is your best way to respond to the thread without
having to actually subscribe).

Cheers,
-g

[1] the dissenting votes are non-binding, fwiw
[2] http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/29904

ps. my advance apologies if you feel this post is inappropriate for
these two TDF forums. I felt obliged to include you all in this
process, though I do understand that it may not be welcome.

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 9 June, 2011 9:17:13
Subject: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Hello,

as we are moving forward with legally setting up the foundation, and 
translate/adapt the bylaws into German, we noticed that some tweaks and 
simplifications are required - in general we feel the shorter these documents 
are, the better it is for understanding.

Proposed change #1:
---

We should replace the words moral commitment (which are rather off-putting to 
many with a stark view of their integrity and morals) with something softer:

from:
Every membership applicant must have been active for at least three (3) months, 
and should make a moral commitment to at least six (6) months activity (not 
counting the first three (3) months of fulfillment of qualification).

to:
Every membership applicant must have been active for at least three (3) months, 
and should make a best effort commitment to continuing their activity for a 
further six (6) months.

Which I hope captures the spirit, without invoking things that cannot be 
predicted.

Proposed change #2:
---

Then a separate set of changes  cleanups around the Advisory Board:

* The /Donor/ definition is not referenced outside of the /Sponsor/ definition, 
and so should be collapsed into there.
* The /Sponsor/ definition is referenced in a redundant, non-normative way by 
the Members/Contributors definition and should be removed.

from:
The Community's Members are people who contribute their time, efforts and 
skills 
independently (individual persons contributing on either a paid or unpaid 
basis), or who may work for Sponsors (refer to definition of Sponsors).

to:
The Community's Members are individuals who contribute their time, efforts and 
skills whether on a paid or voluntary basis.

Proposed change #3:
---

* Remove the Sponsors section. This is now only referred to in the Advisory 
Board definition and sections, and as such can be expanded there.

* Expand the Advisory Board definition.

from:
The Advisory Board represents the Foundation's Sponsors. Each Sponsor is 
entitled to appoint one representative. For more information, see Advisory 
Board 
under Governance.

to:
The Advisory Board provides a forum for organisations that provide a 
substantial 
minimum level of financial, or other support as determined by the BoD to meet 
with the BoD and provide advice. For more information, see Advisory Board under 
Governance.

Proposed change #4:
---

* Re-work the Advisory Board section:

from:
The Advisory Board [AB] is staffed by Sponsors' representatives (refer to 
definition of Sponsors). Each Sponsor can have no more than one representative 
on the Advisory Board. Each Sponsor's representative is appointed for a term of 
one (1) year, but can be re-appointed for a further year in office at the end 
of 
each term.
The AB's primary function is to represent The Document Foundation's Sponsors, 
and to provide the Board of Directors with advice, guidance and proposals.

to:
The Advisory Board [AB] is staffed, at the BoD's discretion by organisations 
that havemade a substantial contribution to The Document Foundation. Each 
organisation appointing a single representative to the Advisory Board based on 
a 
yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.
The AB's primary function is to represent these organisations by providing the 
BoD with advice, guidance and proposals.

Thoughts?

Florian


Hi :)
+1
I'm not a member or anything so my opinion doesn't count but i especially liked 
point 2.  Point 1 is not perfect grammar but probably translates well.  The 
rest 
of the points are great too but 2 is my favourite.
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

From: David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 9 June, 2011 11:24:02
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Hi Michael,

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 13:15, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com wrote:
Ho hum; I'm personally averse to widespread small changes - they tend
 not to get the level of review that is required, and we were IMHO very
 badly burned by the level of un-reviewed change before the bylaws were
 frozen; that then required extensive expenditure of time (that is still
 ongoing) to get them into better shape.

Personally, I'd like to see all such changes posted here for some
 sanity checking first along with some justification. We have code review
 during code freezes, even more so legalese review.

I recall that people were requested to read the bylaws properly
before voting on the original draft... :-P

I would only make strictly *spelling and grammatical* corrections,
nothing more. Do I have an OK for that?

David Nelson


Hi :)
I think it is a good idea to do a spelling and grammar check although i suspect 
that Florian has probably already flagged up the only 4 issues.  It would be 
good for a native En-Us speaker to double-check jic.  Given that registration 
will be done in Germany it is more important to get the German translation 
reasonably perfect rather than the En-Us version.  


Alfresco seem to be a great place for storing documents in a way that allows 
people to reviews and create a working notes file  so that when a particular 
document/rule/guideline/policy is scheduled for review the changes could be 
discussed and possibly added (if agreed).  

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

[Tom Davies]

From: David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Cc: steering-disc...@global.documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thu, 9 June, 2011 20:22:51
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] proposed bylaws changes

Hi Florian,

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:17, Florian Effenberger
flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 Hello,

 as we are moving forward with legally setting up the foundation, and
 translate/adapt the bylaws into German, we noticed that some tweaks and
 simplifications are required - in general we feel the shorter these
 documents are, the better it is for understanding.

 Proposed change #1:
 ---

 We should replace the words moral commitment (which are rather off-putting
 to many with a stark view of their integrity and morals) with something
 softer:

 from:
 Every membership applicant must have been active for at least three (3)
 months, and should make a moral commitment to at least six (6) months
 activity (not counting the first three (3) months of fulfillment of
 qualification).

 to:
 Every membership applicant must have been active for at least three (3)
 months, and should make a best effort commitment to continuing their
 activity for a further six (6) months.

 Which I hope captures the spirit, without invoking things that cannot be
 predicted.

best-effort


 Proposed change #2:
 ---

 Then a separate set of changes  cleanups around the Advisory Board:

 * The /Donor/ definition is not referenced outside of the /Sponsor/
 definition, and so should be collapsed into there.
 * The /Sponsor/ definition is referenced in a redundant, non-normative way
 by the Members/Contributors definition and should be removed.

 from:
 The Community's Members are people who contribute their time, efforts and
 skills independently (individual persons contributing on either a paid or
 unpaid basis), or who may work for Sponsors (refer to definition of
 Sponsors).

 to:
 The Community's Members are individuals who contribute their time, efforts
 and skills whether on a paid or voluntary basis.

and skills, whether on a paid or voluntary basis.

(Just adds a comma.)


 Proposed change #3:
 ---

 * Remove the Sponsors section. This is now only referred to in the Advisory
 Board definition and sections, and as such can be expanded there.

 * Expand the Advisory Board definition.

 from:
 The Advisory Board represents the Foundation's Sponsors. Each Sponsor is
 entitled to appoint one representative. For more information, see Advisory
 Board under Governance.

 to:
 The Advisory Board provides a forum for organisations that provide a
 substantial minimum level of financial, or other support as determined by
 the BoD to meet with the BoD and provide advice. For more information, see
 Advisory Board under Governance.

organizations

(US spelling, like everywhere else in the bylaws.)

minimum level of financial or other support, as determined by
 the BoD, to meet with the BoD and provide advice.

(Minor punctuation changes.)


 Proposed change #4:
 ---

 * Re-work the Advisory Board section:

 from:
 The Advisory Board [AB] is staffed by Sponsors' representatives (refer to
 definition of Sponsors). Each Sponsor can have no more than one
 representative on the Advisory Board. Each Sponsor's representative is
 appointed for a term of one (1) year, but can be re-appointed for a further
 year in office at the end of each term.
 The AB's primary function is to represent The Document Foundation's
 Sponsors, and to provide the Board of Directors with advice, guidance and
 proposals.

 to:
 The Advisory Board [AB] is staffed, at the BoD's discretion by organisations
 that have  made a substantial contribution to The Document Foundation. Each
 organisation appointing a single representative to the Advisory Board based
 on a yearly fee to be determined by the BoD.
 The AB's primary function is to represent these organisations by providing
 the BoD with advice, guidance and proposals.

organization / organizations

(US spelling.)


That's it... pretty painless, no? ;-P

I've proofread the rest of the bylaws in the past so many times I
don't think there are any / many spelling / grammar errors in them.

Otherwise, I was only going to add a clause about transferring TDF's
funds into my personal bank account every 6 months...

David Nelson


Hi :)
Yup +1
I always try to use Uk spellings but i think this has to be American :(
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] About elections

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think 100 is still quite small compared to the numbers of people actually 
involved.  So the list of members is still more like a special-interest 
sub-set.  The founder members are doing a great job and i hope that they stay 
in 
place for a long while yet.
Regards from
Tom :)




- Original Message 
 From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 10:19:06
 Subject: [steering-discuss] About elections
 
 Hello everyone,
 
 given that the Foundation is close to being created, and  that we have now 
nearly 100 approved members (thanks to the membership committee  for their 
great 
work!), I guess that in the near future we should think about  holding 
elections 
for the future board of directors. IIRC, all other roles  besides the AB, are 
then voted on by the BoD.
 
 Anyone already had a closer  look or is working on that yet? I guess we need 
some nomination phase, and  people taking care of and monitoring the poll, and 
those should be not amongst  the candidates.
 
 Florian
 
 -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 Steering  Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
 Tel: +49 8341  99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca:  @floeff
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] About elections

[Tom Davies]

- Original Message 
 From: Volker Merschmann merschm...@gmail.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 11:02:56
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
 
 Hi,
 
 2011/6/6 Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org:
   Tom Davies wrote on 2011-06-06 11.22:
 
  I think 100 is  still quite small compared to the numbers of people
   actually
  involved.  So the list of members is still more like a  special-interest
  sub-set.  The founder members are doing a great job  and i hope that they
  stay in
  place for a long while  yet.
 
  thanks for the flowers, as we say in Germany.  :-)
 
  Well, there are two things:
  The steering committee  has to end its existence one year after being set in
  place, which would  be, depending on how that needs to be counted, either 
end
  of August, or  September 28th.
 
  In addition, to set up the Foundation in  Germany, we need to provide the
  names of the legal representatives. As  we hope to have the legal paperwork
  finished soon, we also need those  names. So, maybe waiting one or two more
  weeks is possible, but given  that we have been accepting members for a few
  weeks already, I guess the  time that is right will come soon ;)
 
 I'd like to add that not every  contributor wants to be a member of the
 foundation. Especially those who are  payed for the work might not like
 to have a too personal  connection.
 
 We can ask the membership committee if there is a reasonable  number of
 applications left which can be finished in the next days.
 Else  we should go ahead for the reasons given by Florian.
 
 Volker
 

Hi :)

+1

Companies do reasonably often pay shares to employees.  This would be slightly 
different in that the 'shares' do not give a pay-out but similar in that they 
give workers a say in the organisation.  I think paid workers should be 
encouraged to become members but obviously it is their choice.
Regards from
Tom :)


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Re: [steering-discuss] About elections

[Tom Davies]

- Original Message 
 From: sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 12:10:30
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
 
 Hi Volker, all,
 On 06/06/2011 13:02, Volker Merschmann  wrote:
 [...]
  
  I'd like to add that not every contributor  wants to be a member of the
  foundation. Especially those who are payed  for the work might not like
  to have a too personal connection.
  
  We can ask the membership committee if there is a reasonable number  of
  applications left which can be finished in the next days.
 Yes  there is still several applications, either we have to statute on or 
 that 
have  just arrived since last week. We did had difficulties to meet during 
May, 
but we  have now a regular meeting on Monday, so that may help to speed the 
process  too.
  Else we should go ahead for the reasons given by Florian.
 The  time needed to put in place the process to organize the elections would 
 be  
enough to have the members incorporated by the Committee, so no need to delay, 
 
both could run side by side.
 Also this is often a reproach that the SC  members have not been elected, so 
for me, the sooner the better to have a clear  and fair situation.
 
 Kind regards
 Sophie



Hi :)
Agreed.  But the founders have shown good strategic planning and good planning 
for the future as shown by the way things have played out in the last few 
weeks.  I think it would take time for newly elected people to have such 
commitment to the long-term vision.  


I have to point out that i am not a founder and not even a regular member.  
I've 
had disagreements and arguments with founders but  have always had good reason 
to respect even the ones i disagree with.
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] About elections

[Tom Davies]

- Original Message 
 From: sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
 To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 12:35:04
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
 
 Hi Tom,
 On 06/06/2011 14:20, Tom Davies wrote:
 [...]
  
  Hi  :)
  Agreed.  But the founders have shown good strategic planning and  good 
planning
  for the future as shown by the way things have played out  in the last few
  weeks.  I think it would take time for newly  elected people to have such
  commitment to the long-term  vision.
 Thanks for the flowers as we also say in French :)
  
  I  have to point out that i am not a founder and not even a regular member. 

I've
  had disagreements and arguments with founders but  have always  had good 
reason
  to respect even the ones i disagree with.
 Even if no  more a member of the SC, I will still consider me as a founder. 
 But 
it's not  what is important to my eyes. The importance for me reside in the 
fact 
that even  if I'm not a SC member, I'll still have a say because I'm a member 
of 
the  Foundation, and though can express my feeling and my wills for the 
present 
or  the future of the foundation and it's community.
 And I'm sure that the new  formed SC will take them into account, we're not 
 new 
and have always shared our  knowledge and experience.
 
 Kind regards
 Sophie
 

Hi :)
True.  Weirdly i hadn't thought of that point lol :)  

I think the important issue to vote on is the Apache issue.  I was wondering if 
it might be possible to collaborate with them to put a wiki-page together on 
the 
TDF wiki so that the different lists can vote on the issue and discuss on the 
lists.  The vote probably couldn't be taken as definite decision but might be 
helpful to gauge general feeling.  

Regards from
Tom :)


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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?

[Tom Davies]

- Original Message 
 From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Sat, 4 June, 2011 14:03:55
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: 
Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?
 
 On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:36 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
 robertburrelldon...@gmail.com  wrote:
  On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Florian Effenberger
   flo...@documentfoundation.org  wrote:
  Hi Robert,
 
  Hi Florian
 
   (Copying in Charles since he asked a similar question off  list)
 
  I'm still reading a few messages and trying to reply  to them, but wanted 
to
  join in here:
 
  Just like the  rest of us :-)
 
  Noisy and open - everyone with an opinion is  welcome :-)
 
  Robert Burrell Donkin wrote on 2011-06-04  09.14:
 
  The TDF is in no position to accept a  major donation of either
  copyright or code today. Apache  is.
 
  Why?
 
  AIUI [1] the TDF is not a legal  entity today and is still in the
  process of building it's legal,  organisational and process
  infrastructure.
 
 So it was urgent as in  a matter of weeks ?
 
  I accept it has strong legal backing but today  no
  (related) US non-profit corporation exists which could accept  the
  donation.
 
 How is 'US' relevant here ?
 
 
  The  Apache Software Foundation provides a suitable legal no-profit
   organisation and in place today a suitable process to accept large
   donations of code from major organisations safely through the
  Incubator.  It has considerable experience of opening close source
  projects and in  working with rich downstream ecologies.
 
 Opening close source ? how is it  relevant here ?
 The proposal is to relicense an open-source project... unless  I missed
 something the proposal concern OOo.org not Symphony right  ?
 
 
  Can you elaborate?
 
  IMHO LibreOffice  community finds itself in a similar position to the
  Apache group in the  mid-90s. Great community. Fantastic momentum. Cool
   product.
 
  But establishing code provenance and the Apache  Software Foundation
  (ASF) took a(n unexpectedly) large amount of time  and energy.
  Establishing suitable licenses and agreements took time and  energy
  over several iterations. Establishing a sound Incubation process  took
  time and energy over many iterations. It took time for us to learn  and
  evolve secure processes which don't completely suck.
 
 That is  all good, but irrelevant. we already have a license and we
 would not need to  incubate anything: the code base you
 are trying to digest is our daily  chore... It has already graduated as
 a top level project
 even better as  THE top level project.
 
 
  The TDF is at the start of a journey  that the ASF started a decade ago
  and is yet to reach the end.
 As far  as OOo.org is concerned, it is the other way around.
 
  The TDF may  wish to consider whether an
  alternative path might achieve their aims  faster...
 Well, take a look: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/
 I'm pretty sure that  we've got nice head start...
 
 Norbert
 


Hi :)

Yes, i think most people (lurkers) here only speak for themselves, not as 
representatives of TDF, except perhaps the founder members.  


The timing of this was surely chosen by Oracle rather than TDF or Apache?  I'm 
paranoid enough to think that Oracle deliberate chose this approximate timing 
months ago, perhaps before September.  That same paranoia leads me to suspect 
that Oracle chose Apache to give Apache a 'mill-stone', something to sink time 
 
resources into without getting anything positive back, hence distracting Apache 
from any on-going fights with Oracle.  


Luckily, i think, they have chosen the 'wrong' people and the 'wrong' product.  
Despite the efforts of Oracle since September and before OpenOffice is still a 
good product with a good reputation and Apache are exactly the sort of people 
most likely to be able to recover that position fast and develop from there 
while doing so.  


Also i think Oracle seriously underestimated how Apache are more likely to work 
well with TDF, perhaps in co-operative competition or perhaps joining TDF and 
resourcing a percentage of development here.  At the very worst it's to keep 
both products in the news which gives us both a level of free marketing.  
Perhaps we should work at appearing to compete more than we really do while 
splitting development costs between each other by sharing fixes and updates etc?

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?

[Tom Davies]

- Original Message 
 From: Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com
 To: gene...@incubator.apache.org
 Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin robertburrelldon...@gmail.com; 
steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Sat, 4 June, 2011 19:12:45
 Subject: [steering-discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: 
Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?
 
 
 On Jun 4, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
  
  We  have been developing our governance and structure for 8 months. People
   have put their trust and their faith in us. Why would you want us to  scrap
  that off in favor of something else and have people follow a  governance 
they
  don't even know?
  
 
 How can one respond to  the question (and the original one that
 predicated this one) without someone  misinterpreting it as
 confrontational, self-serving or  condescending?
 
 One issue that was, from all I have been told and heard,  is
 that having OOo at some place with a known track record,
 with real FOSS  street cred and the ability to work with
 other FOSS organizations as well as  commercial entities was
 important. That it wasn't just getting rid of OOo  but instead
 placing it someplace where it had the best chance to  growth,
 thrive and prosper.
 
 I've also been told that Oracle and TDF  did discuss moving
 OOo there, but that in addition to some requirements  that
 were unacceptable, that TDF was still a  foundation-in-creation.
 Reading over the blogs, it is even admitted that the  complexity
 and time involved in creating one was underestimated.  The
 concern was putting the life and longevity of OOo into, basically,
 an  unknown quantity.
 
 With that in mind, the ASF (or Eclipse) is much  different. We've
 been a foundation since 1999, and an active force since  1994. We
 have a legal structure, a non-profit 501(c)3 status,  existing
 infrastructure, a healthy fundraising effort, a methodology  and
 governance model that is copied and well respected, and a proven  track
 record of building exceptional FOSS projects and  communities.
 
 There are *obvious* things that, with OOo in mind, the ASF  lacks
 that TDF has in spades: the build and distribution system is the
 one  which has been mentioned most of all. There are things that
 the TDF lacks  that the ASF has in spades. I don't see why we can't
 work together to use  each other to fill in the holes that the
 other lacks.
 
 P.S. I am again  reminded by people (privately, in order to keep
 the noise down a bit) that  although TDF is a major player in the
 OOo space, it is not just the ASF and  TDF, but *everyone*.



Hi :)
I think there is a lot of confusion and mis-information out-there.  Oracle 
seems 
to have an extremely bad reputation in FOSS communities.  All the FOSS projects 
that Sun used to run almost immediately forked as soon Oracle started to take 
over, except perhaps VirtualBox.  


While TDF has constantly communicated with Oracle there has been no response.  

Oracle might be good at PR and marketing itself but it seems unable to deliver 
anything.  Just my opinion and i wasn't a founder member nor a current member.

It seems that you were kindly offering something that TDF would have valued 
greatly if TDF had been in the position you were told it was in.  Since that is 
quite far from reality it upset people that thought you might have been trying 
to take over.  Perhaps whoever gave you the mis-information from was hoping 
that 
exactly this sort of misunderstanding would drive a wedge between Apache and 
TDF.  However, i think both organisations have a great deal to gain from 
co-operating and that is exactly something that Oracle would dislike.  I think 
your offer was extremely generous and meant kindly.

Regards to all from
Tom :)


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Re: [steering-discuss] call from CW 15 online

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
If there is some sort of voice recording (perhaps via Voip?) then perhaps some 
minutes could be generated?  I'm not a touch-typist but there are probably 
people around that could do something or perhaps just place the recording 
wherre 
minutes are usually kept?
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 18 April, 2011 20:07:00
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] call from CW 15 online

Hello,

Volker Merschmann wrote on 2011-04-18 20.21:
 I have to remind the members of the steering committee to write down
 the minutes of their meetings. Not everybody is willing to hear the
 whole stream for tracking the information, some might even not be able
 to understand all.

well, maybe there will also be some community members dialing in and 
volunteering to take notes. :-)

I see the need for the notes, but especially when you only have two or three 
people in the call, additionally taking notes is a real burden. Hopefully, 
participation will be better next times.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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