Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
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Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;566476 Wrote: A Linux box (properly assembled) should recover harmlessly from unexpected power loss.. The key word here is should I have hard powered of Vortexboxes 100s of times with no problems but there are people who have had problems. Unusually during nasty brown outs or lightning strikes. -- agillis rip, tag, get cover art All you do is insert the CD! http://vortexbox.org agillis Lead Developer VortexBox agillis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21140 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
agillis;566453 Wrote: I recommend a UPS for any computer equipment. 99 times out of 100 an unexpected power off is fine but that 1% can cause problems. Usually data corruption. I recommend a low cost UPS such as APC. APC is far from the best but there stuff works well. I have used APC for years. Basically it doesn't really matter what type of UPS you have as long as you have one. Ok, then what facilities does Vortexbox employ to work with a UPS to ensure a safe shutdown when on battery power? If the UPS battery runs out, then you're little better off than having no UPS at all. Is it easy to configure through the Vortexbox software interface? -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;566973 Wrote: Ok, then what facilities does Vortexbox employ to work with a UPS to ensure a safe shutdown when on battery power? If the UPS battery runs out, then you're little better off than having no UPS at all. Is it easy to configure through the Vortexbox software interface? +1 Buy what VortexBox supports for orderly shutdown.. -- pski real stereo makes the lights dim on the bass notes. pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
agillis;566964 Wrote: The key word here is should I have hard powered of Vortexboxes 100s of times with no problems but there are people who have had problems. Which is why those who learned how to think also saw the Challenger explosion as murder. If you did not, then you are probably curing symptoms rather the solving problems. If not, then you probably so hated America as to advocate the murder of 4000 American soldiers for the greater glory of a political agenda - in Iraq. The informed know and also know why they know using numbers. One either learns how to see and solve problems using principals taught in junior high science - ie the hypothesis and the experimental confirmation in numbers. Or one is easily scammed by a UPS that only solves a symptom. If an informed consumer, then no blackouts cause hardware damage or harm the Linux configuration. None. Those who are most easily deceived spend massively more for defective hardware. The spend more for a UPS to fix that defective hardware. No blackout harms a Vortexbox. If damage occurs, the informed consumer goes after the person who scammed him. Yes, the key word is 'should'. Because informed consumers learn where the problem exists. And those who blindly believe what they are told will blame anyone but themselves.The attitude - be intelligent - is strongly expressed in this post. You do not inherit intelligence. You learn it. It you do not ask damning questions, your are scammed by political extemsists and retail salesmen with only a high school education. Unfortunately, a majority will instead blame and solve symptoms. Definition of an informed consumer - someone who learns rather than believes popular myths. No blackout does damage to hardware sold by and purchased by informed consumers. A fact. Blackout created damage is a first indication of a technically naive consumer. One who is told how to think rather than ask damning questions. Whose eyes glaze over with each number. Who blindly believes technical myths from the high school educated salesman. One who believes rather that always demand numbers. One who does not constantly ask damning questions. Blackouts only cause damage to hardware sold by scammer to those who want to be scammed. If a Vortexbox does not have unsaved data, then a blackout causes no damage. It does not need a UPS. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;567025 Wrote: Which is why those who learned how to think also saw the Challenger explosion as murder. If you did not, then you are probably curing symptoms rather the solving problems. If not, then you probably so hated America as to advocate the murder of 4000 American soldiers for the greater glory of a political agenda - in Iraq. The informed know and also know why they know using numbers. One either learns how to see and solve problems using principals taught in junior high science - ie the hypothesis and the experimental confirmation in numbers. Or one is easily scammed by a UPS that only solves a symptom. If an informed consumer, then no blackouts cause hardware damage or harm the Linux configuration. None. Those who are most easily deceived spend massively more for defective hardware. The spend more for a UPS to fix that defective hardware. No blackout harms a Vortexbox. If damage occurs, the informed consumer goes after the person who scammed him. Yes, the key word is 'should'. Because informed consumers 'should' learn where the problem exists. Those who blindly believe what they are told will blame anyone but themselves.The attitude - be intelligent - is strongly expressed in this post. You do not inherit intelligence. You learn it. If you do not ask damning questions, your are scammed by political extemsists and retail salesmen with only a high school education. If you do not ask damning questions, then you did not learn how to be an informed consumer. Unfortunately, a majority will blame symptoms. No blackout does damage to hardware sold by and purchased by informed consumers. A fact. And stated by someone whos job was to design and meet that requirement. Blackouts cause damage to hardware sold by scammer to those who want to be scammed. A first indication of that scam - post and produt specs that have no numbers. If a Vortexbox does not have unsaved data, then a blackout causes no damage. It does not need a UPS. Orderly power off is required in the design of minimally sufficient hardware. Bwa? Anataka kula kuma. -- pski real stereo makes the lights dim on the bass notes. (this means your amp could also use it's own circuit.) pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
pski;567040 Wrote: Bwa? Anataka kula kuma. You had to quote the entire spiel to post that? Although I happen to agree with you. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;567041 Wrote: You had to quote the entire spiel to post that? Although I happen to agree with you. And a majority will agree with the most technically ignorant. A majority are not officer or college material. Will blindly believe what the high school educated retail salesman orders them to believe. Also called brainwashing. Cannot ask damning questions. Eyes glaze over with every number. Know only what popular myths say. Easily scammed by UPS hearsay recommendations. Only informed consumers know a Linux system is not and must not be harmed by blackouts. The naive who are told what to belive will only post insults - no facts, no numbers, insufficient kowledge, and plenty of insults. But that was always the point. Those with the least knownledge know a UPS is necessary because hearsay say so - while technical facts say otherwise. So why are the last two replies devoid of facts or even one number? Those most easily brainwashed by myth must do the Limbaugh thing. Dispareage. Insult. Mock. And not one honest fact. UPS is completely unnecessary if unsaved data does not exist. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
7 for 7. Keeping the streak alive... -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;567042 Wrote: And a majority will agree with the most technically ignorant. A majority are not officer or college material. Will blindly believe what the high school educated retail salesman orders them to believe. Also called brainwashing. Cannot ask damning questions. Eyes glaze over with every number. Know only what popular myths say. Easily scammed by UPS hearsay recommendations. Only informed consumers know a Linux system is not and must not be harmed by blackouts. The naive who are told what to belive will only post insults - no facts, no numbers, insufficient kowledge, and plenty of insults. But that was always the point. Those with the least knownledge know a UPS is necessary because hearsay say so - while technical facts say otherwise. So why are the last two replies devoid of facts or even one number? Those most easily brainwashed by myth must do the Limbaugh thing. Dispareage. Insult. Mock. And not one honest fact. UPS is completely unnecessary if unsaved data does not exist. I'm thinking it's PHP or Buddy. P -- pski real stereo makes the lights dim on the bass notes. (this means your amp could also use it's own circuit.) pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
pfarrell;566448 Wrote: ... there are different types of UPS designs. The cheap ones switch quickly, the better ones are called line interactive and always charge the battery and always run off the battery (not the mains). Its rather easily to know which UPS is which. To have line interactive and 'clean' power, then UPS costs $500, $1000, or more. Most all UPSes are switches. Since a UPS is intended for electronics, that 'cheapest solution' is more than sufficient. Anything a UPS might do is already done better inside electronic appliances. And 'protection' provided by a line interactive UPS is already inside every electronic power supply. If that UPS AC to DC to AC conversion supplies protection, then the AC to DC to AC to DC again protection inside every electronics appliance is superior. The UPS does not have 1000 volts galvanic isolation. Computers do. Intel requirements demand that computer supplies be superior to other electronics appliances. All electronics already contains significant protection. Therefore additional protection is only for direct lightning strikes. Surges that typically occur once every seven years. Any protection a UPS might do is already inside the computer. Why is a UPS output (in battery backup mode) so 'dirty'? Why does a typical 120 volts UPS output 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts between those square waves? Because all electronics - especially computers - are so robust. Makes 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Most all UPSes connect the appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. They will do most anything to keep you confused. Many foolishly believe its AC power is generated from DC. Nonsense. Put a scope on the UPS output. When is its output cleanest? When the relay connects the appliance directly to AC mains. Anything a manufacturer can do to subvert knowledge gets the naive to claim a UPS 'cleans' electricity. Any urban myth that increases sales is a good thing. A Linux box (properly assembled) should recover harmlessly from unexpected power loss. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
garym;566214 Wrote: Also, any thoughts on what sort of bad things will happen when my vortexbox loses power unexpectedly ... And I'm new to linux systems. On my windows machine, it just goes off, reboots, and I'm back in business. All computers have done that since Windows NT. Only machines that could lose data due to an unexpected power off were Windows 95/ME vintage machines. Today, power off must never damage saved software. And unexpected power off - even 50 years ago - must never damage electronic hardware. UPS serves only one function - to provide temporary power so that you can save unsaved data. So that you need not be interrupted by the power loss. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;566325 Wrote: All computers have done that since Windows NT. Only machines that could lose data due to an unexpected power off were Windows 95/ME vintage machines. Today, power off must never damage saved software. And unexpected power off - even 50 years ago - must never damage electronic hardware. UPS serves only one function - to provide temporary power so that you can save unsaved data. So that you need not be interrupted by the power loss. Wrong: I've seen machines fail to come back due to power loss. When a car runs into a telephone pole, you do not get a clean shutdown at the OS level (has everything been written to disk at that instant? On a busy machine, the answer is likely 'no'). Worse, the power fluctuates in such instances: providing the same effect as plugging and unplugging the power at the wall plate repeatedly. Drives spin up/down, and surges trash data and possibly do severe hardware damage. I've lost 3 drives at home due to power failures, and 2 power supplies at work (on a building UPS -- those orange outlets). Heck, I've even seen huge building-wide UPS's damage machines when someone turned the dial from 'Online' to 'Bypass' and accidentally went too far and hit 'Off', then correcting and turning to bypass. This creates nasty powerdrops followed by a spike as several hundred machines come back online. A UPS is a good investment. For a VortexBox appliance, probably any old cheap UPS will do you fine: the current draw is not much at all, so you don't need a huge UPS. Stick with a brandname, but a cheap APC should be fine. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
garym;566328 Wrote: That's what I assumed (basic UPS). Thanks. I don't worry about this for my windows machines as it's never been an issue and I'm good at diagnosing any windows systems issues should any arise (and I have plenty of data backups off the grid!), but I'm such a newbie at linux that the mounting, unmounting, etc. etc. is all a mystery to me (thus far) and I wanted a little extra insurance on screwups The main thing would be trashing the drive or the power supply -- motherboards are usually safe, the P/S gets to act like a giant fuse in such cases. But power nasties can be painful on drives. The power supply won't really isolate them -- too much mechanical stuff that reacts badly to power cycling. I'd still keep a backup, of course... I have too much time spent in ripping and tagging to want to lose my music. I don't worry about the Windows machine: it's been dead for ages anyway... :) -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566327 Wrote: For a VortexBox appliance, probably any old cheap UPS will do you fine: the current draw is not much at all, so you don't need a huge UPS. Stick with a brandname, but a cheap APC should be fine. That's what I assumed (basic UPS). Thanks. I don't worry about this for my windows machines as it's never been an issue and I'm good at diagnosing any windows systems issues should any arise (and I have plenty of data backups off the grid!), but I'm such a newbie at linux that the mounting, unmounting, etc. etc. is all a mystery to me (thus far) and I wanted a little extra insurance on screwups -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566327 Wrote: Wrong: I've seen machines fail to come back due to power loss. When a car runs into a telephone pole, you do not get a clean shutdown at the OS level When a car hits a pole, all unsaved data is lost. Everything else is intact. Wrong in spades are the most naive who *know* only using observation. Also called junk science reasoning. A naive observer will be quick to blame power loss when his own technical ignorance was a most common reason for failure. In another example, the computer powered off suddenly. Well he blamed power off for the damage. He did junk science. He observed - that was knowledge. We did the autopsy. A pullup resistor to bootstrap the power supply controller had failed to due too many hours of continuous operation - a manufacturing defect. That resistor failed probably months earlier. Then when power was lost, the computer would not boot. Observation: power went off. Computer would not boot. Therefore that *proves* power loss causes damage. Science and reality: A manufacturing defect a month earlier created a failure only detectable after any power off. When does a disk drive learn that computer power is going off? When the 5 and 12 volts suddenly starts dropping. Again, those who do not first learn the science - who know only from observation - would not know that. A disk drive is never warned that power is being removed. All power offs ( shutdown, yank the power cord, car hitting a pole, entire state blackout) appear as the same power off to all disk drives. A reality that was true even when heads were moved by motor oil. Those educated only from hearsay - who only know from observation - would never know that. Those educated by observation immediately know unexpected power off causes damage. Amazing how observation alone becomes knowledge. Just like Windows, a power off do to any reason must not harm any Linux hardware. UPS has only one function - time to protect unsaved data. That Liux machine is equally fine with or without a UPS. Greater threats to that hardware are solve elsewhere - not by a UPS. Also requires knowledge not obtained from observation and hearsay. Linux is just as robust as Windows as are all other computers today. Linux has the same Windows features that make all power offs irrelevant. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;566338 Wrote: When a car hits a pole, all unsaved data is lost. Everything else is intact. Wrong: the AC input to your device goes all over the place. The 12v output of your P/S is NOT regulated to the point that providing random input to the power supply will always produce 12V. It will drop to 0 and back to 12 over and over as the 120VAC comes and goes. That is VERY bad for mechanical devices like hard drives. Wrong in spades are the most naive who *know* only using observation. Also called junk science reasoning. A naive observer will be quick to blame power loss when his own technical ignorance was a most common reason for failure. Back this up with proof. Your experience is meaningless. When does a disk drive learn that computer power is going off? When the 5 and 12 volts suddenly starts dropping. Again, those who do not first learn the science - who know only from observation - would not know that. A disk drive is never warned that power is being removed. All power offs ( shutdown, yank the power cord, car hitting a pole, entire state blackout) appear as the same power off to all disk drives. A reality that was true even when heads were moved by motor oil. Those educated only from hearsay - who only know from observation - would never know that. Those educated by observation immediately know unexpected power off causes damage. Amazing how observation alone becomes knowledge. All power offs are same to every disk drive - despite obervations that *know* otherwise. Wrong. They do NOT appear the same as a power off unless you include power off includes the state where the power may come on and off dozens of times in a second, and provide both under and over voltage conditions). Drives see that when a car hits a pole, when a tree limb falls across a power line, when too many a/c's turning on at once cause brownouts, etc etc. Linux is just as robust as Windows as are all other computers today. Linux has the same Windows features that make all power offs irrelevant. You're wrong. MILLIONS of hard drives beg to differ with your assertions. Hardware damage occurs with voltage over/under conditions. I have no clue what the hell you're talking about operating systems for. Applying the wrong or inconsistent voltage to a drive will damage it, regardless of OS: and power outages are typically not clean -- you get tons of spikes and drops both as the power drops out and when it comes back on. Hint: the regulated 12v from your power supply is not all that regulated. It is based on certain presumptions of the quality of the input power. That quality goes to hell when the power drops. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566331 Wrote: The main thing would be trashing the drive or the power supply These are problems due to the spikes involved in the typical power event, not the fact that the system has shut down unexpectedly. With a machine running Squeezebox Server there should be very little being written to databases or other files most of the time. There is an outside chance, though, that an unexpected shutdown could trash a file or two and make startup of the application impossible. So, if you want to minimize the odds that a power outage will cause some type of failure, you need a UPS and need to take one of two approaches to using it: - Use a large enough UPS that it will weather all/most power outages. A headless Vortexbox doesn't draw much power, so a typical inexpensive UPS for a desktop system would most likely provide at least 20-30 minutes of up time, possibly quite a bit longer. So you could cover the majority of power outages in your area, but you can never cover 100% of them. - Use a UPS that communicates with the computer to allow the system to shut down gracefully after some number of minutes on standby power. Considering the application - the Vortexbox is a music server and when your power goes out, your music system will be nonfunctional, there's little reason to keep the music server running forever. So if your UPS has, say, 20 minutes of capacity, configure the system to shut down after 15 minutes. The UPS will need the capability of communicating with a computer (usually a serial port of some type), which all but the most basic UPS's have, and the Vortexbox or its operating system will need software to respond to the signals received from the UPS. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;566358 Wrote: These are problems due to the spikes involved in the typical power event, not the fact that the system has shut down unexpectedly. Yes, and despite the claim of westom, these are very real and even if there is no activity at the time, WILL damage hardware. Case in point from today: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/08/power-problems-damage-appliances-electronics-in-glendale.html A severe enough outage that it damaged electrical meters. If you're planning for an uncontrolled power event a UPS will do a fine job of protecting your hardware in almost all nasty conditions (if it blows up the meter on the house, well, then, it may kill your UPS too.. but then you have a $50 fuse that would likely save your computer). -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566351 Wrote: Wrong: the AC input to your device goes all over the place. When someone posts that nasty, that dumb, that uneducated, and incessantly, then being polite to an asshole is useless. Reality taken from so many industry standards from the Computer Business Equipment Manufacturers association to Intel specifications for all power supplies. AC voltages can change so much as incandescent lamps dim to less than 40% intensity. And that is more than sufficient voltage for all computers. Regulation is the job of all computer power supplies. To maintain perfectly ideal DC voltages even when AC mains voltages vary that much. A spec even defines how long a power supply must output completely stable power when no AC input voltage exists. How does one know that when only using observation? Any regulation that a UPS might do is already done by a superior computer power supply. Why must computer work uninterrupted and normally when incandescent bulbs dim to 40% intensity? Because those requirements are what we (the people who go educated) must design to even long before the IBM PC existed. View the output of typical UPSes in battery backup mode. This 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Is that destructive? Potentially harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And ideal perfect power for all computers and other electronics. Because all computer power supplies - even before the IBM PC existed - were required to be that robust and stable. How does one learn that reality from observation? What happens when the UPS switches from AC to battery? A long period of no power while the relay switches. And yes, all computers are required to provide stable uninterrupted DC power even during that switchover period. A period of no AC input power. Buy another function found in all computer power supplies to make events on AC mains irrelevant. UPS outputs the 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. No problem. Every computer is required to make that 'dirtiest' power into ideal perfect and stable DC. This was known over 40 years ago. Incandescent bulbs dim to below 50% intensity. And all electronics must operate uninterrupted.Computers are required to be even more robust. Those educated by hearsay and observation would not know. Will only reply nasty. Those educated only by observation also proved spontaneous reproduction. Many without basic science would not even know what spontaneous reproduction is. Victims of knowledge only from observation. The best voltage regulation is required inside every computer. Even required by international design standards. UPS has only one function - to provide temporary power to save unsaved data. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566360 Wrote: Case in point from today: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/08/power-problems-damage-appliances-electronics-in-glendale.html A severe enough outage that it damaged electrical meters. A friend knows someone who actually knows this stuff. A 33,000 volt electric line fell upon local distribution. Hundreds of electric meters were blown 20 and 30 feet from the pan. Shattered. So many who had plug-in protectors had destroyed protectors and appliances. Obviously, a relay inside a UPS (that takes tens of milliseconds to respond) did nothing. Surge went right through that UPS damaging the UPS and electronics. At least one had a circuit breaker that would no longer reset. But my friend installed the only thing that does such protection. The solution that was installed even 100 years ago so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. He spend about $1 per protected appliance to earth one 'whole house' protector. He had no damage even to the protector. Only his electric meter was damaged. Read its numeric specs. No UPS claims protection in its numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules - or higher. Numbers that cannot be obtained using observation. The UPS has only hundreds of joules. How does that hundreds of joules absorb or stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It does not. And it is not suppose to. It claims near zero protection on the box. Then those without education will proclaims, That UPS does 100% surge protection! The naïve are that easily deceived. When does near zero protection do 100% protection? Why did my friend have no damage? He installed the only thing that protects from that type of anomaly. He did not listen to people educated by retail myths. Instead he viewed numbers, knew an engineer, and had zero damage. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less money per protected appliance. Only myth purveyors and fools educated by observation would think a UPS does any real protection. Even the manufacturers numeric specs do not claim surge protection. And still so many only recite what the salesman told them to believe. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
westom;566361 Wrote: When someone posts that nasty, that dumb, that uneducated, and incessantly, then being polite to an asshole is useless. Exactly. PLONK. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;566358 Wrote: These are problems due to the spikes involved in the typical power event, not the fact that the system has shut down unexpectedly. Thanks JJZolx. Yep, that's what I was asking about. The simple case of the vortexbox appliance being the equivalent of unplugged without going through a normal shutdown. To be clear, I'm simply trying to avoid any hassles of: the power went off, and now I have to connect a monitor and keyboard to the appliance and enter some command lines to restart SbS, mount drives, give out permissions, and all the other stuff I currently know little about. If the vortexbox appliance blows up, I really don't care about that (as long as the house doesn't burn down). I have lots of safe backups in 3 different cities! It's the minor hassle and the wife factor (I'm out of town and she says, we had a power outage and now I can't play music. How do I fix it?). I can tell her what do do with a windows machine (just reboot!). But the linux stuff (I'm assuming) is not so straightforward. Again, I'm speaking from ignorance on this issue. I fully understand that power spikes, lightning strikes, etc. are an entirely different issue. I do have things running through one of the brickwall price wheeler surge protectors to help in this regard, but nothing stops a direct hit I suspect. And that's not my current concern in any case. Thanks again. -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
garym;566442 Wrote: To be clear, I'm simply trying to avoid any hassles of: the power went off, and now I have to connect a monitor and keyboard to the appliance and enter some command lines to restart SbS, mount drives, give out permissions, and all the other stuff I currently know little about. Well, like I said, the only way to really guarantee that the system will be shut down safely is to have a UPS that communicates with the server and make sure you have it set to shut down before the battery runs out. I don't know enough about Linux, and even less about the Vortexbox, to say whether or not its easy to do with, say, a typical APC UPS. Ask the Vortexbox people. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
garym;566442 Wrote: Thanks JJZolx. Yep, that's what I was asking about. The simple case of the vortexbox appliance being the equivalent of unplugged without going through a normal shutdown. To be clear, I'm simply trying to avoid any hassles of: the power went off, and now I have to connect a monitor and keyboard to the appliance and enter some command lines to restart SbS, mount drives, give out permissions, and all the other stuff I currently know little about. If the vortexbox appliance blows up, I really don't care about that (as long as the house doesn't burn down). I have lots of safe backups in 3 different cities! It's the minor hassle and the wife factor (I'm out of town and she says, we had a power outage and now I can't play music. How do I fix it?). I can tell her what do do with a windows machine (just reboot!). But the linux stuff (I'm assuming) is not so straightforward. Again, I'm speaking from ignorance on this issue. Again don't expect power events to be 'clean'. They won't be. Despite claims to the contrary, a decent UPS will protect you from most events: they switch to battery at both low and high voltage within milliseconds. They do work: they typically even include insurance on machines plugged into them. It's usually not a big deal on Linux, but may be difficult to step your wife through e3fsck found errors, please log in as root and run e3fsck manually.but then, change 'e3fsck' to 'chkdsk' and its the same basic thing. Like Windows, most of the time Linux will be fine from an expected shutdown. There will always be a risk with any hardware that a power cycle will be mistimed and catch you mid disk write. I fully understand that power spikes, lightning strikes, etc. are an entirely different issue. I do have things running through one of the brickwall price wheeler surge protectors to help in this regard, but nothing stops a direct hit I suspect. And that's not my current concern in any case. Thanks again. again, you will get spikes/dropouts when a car or tree or wind hits a power line, or a squirrel plays in a substation, etc. In almost all cases a UPS will protect you. It may even act like a giant fuse and protect you that way. Many 'surge suppressors' suck: they are a simple MOV across the line and the MOV has a limited lifetime and will give no warning when it has used up its useful life. It will just cease to protect you... a decent UPS will include a proper surge suppressor not a fifty cent MOV. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
On 08/03/2010 09:16 PM, snarlydwarf wrote: Despite claims to the contrary, a decent UPS will protect you from most events To expand on this a bit, there are different types of UPS designs. The cheap ones switch quickly, the better ones are called line interactive and always charge the battery and always run off the battery (not the mains). I hate APC the company, because they never say which kind their units are, but since they never state it, and the other vendors such as Tripp-Lite proudly advertise it for their more expensive units, I would bet money that all APC are just the cheapies. Often the cheapies are good enough, and help with short outages and some spikes. But if you want real protection, expect to spend twice as much as the BestBuy sold UPS units. Many 'surge suppressors' suck: they are a simple MOV across the line and the MOV has a limited lifetime and will give no warning when it has used up its useful life. The limited life, and silent death of MOV is never talked about. Just when you need it, its gone. Its an interesting economic decision, a good USP can cost more than the rest of an inexpensive PC, suitable to use as a music server. It may make more sense to just have a backup copy of your music and assume that the server is expendable. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
I recommend a UPS for any computer equipment. 99 times out of 100 an unexpected power off is fine but that 1% can cause problems. Usually data corruption. I recommend a low cost UPS such as APC. APC is far from the best but there stuff works well. I have used APC for years. Basically it doesn't really matter what type of UPS you have as long as you have one. -- agillis rip, tag, get cover art All you do is insert the CD! http://vortexbox.org agillis Lead Developer VortexBox agillis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21140 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
A real ups constantly delivers ac that has already been passed through the dc stage. They switch based-on make-before-break technology and therefore never truly disconnect the input power. P -- pski real stereo makes the lights dim on the bass notes. pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;566445 Wrote: Well, like I said, the only way to really guarantee that the system will be shut down safely is to have a UPS that communicates with the server and make sure you have it set to shut down before the battery runs out. I don't know enough about Linux, and even less about the Vortexbox, to say whether or not its easy to do with, say, a typical APC UPS. Ask the Vortexbox people. I use the Ubuntu 'apcupsd' package with an APC Smart UPS (their cheapest model that is supposed to output nice, non-square AC waves). I think mine came with a USB cable, but I opted to use the 9-pin serial cable since my server had a free serial port. In addition to clean shutdowns based on realistic runtime calculations by the UPS, one thing I really like is that apcupsd emails me when the power goes out or comes back on. My broadband modem and AP are also on a UPS, so I pretty reliably get emails/texts when there's a power problem. Since my house relies on a sump pump to keep the basement dry, this is a big relief. I also like that the Smart UPS handles under- and over-voltage events. I've been pretty loyal to APC ever since I had a great customer service experience with them in the late 1990s, but next time I'll probably shop around, as I've had some bad experiences with APC units' reliability lately both at home (the unit that preceded my Smart UPS) and work (some nicer rackmount units) -- though most of the APC units, including one I've owned more than a decade, work fine. -- peterw http://www.tux.org/~peterw/ Free plugins: 'AllQuiet' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/AllQuiet.html) 'Auto Dim/AutoDisplay' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/AutoDisplay.html) 'BlankSaver' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/BlankSaver.html) 'ContextMenu' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/ContextMenu.html) 'DenonSerial' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/DenonSerial.html) 'FuzzyTime' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/FuzzyTime.html) 'KidsPlay' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/KidsPlay.html) 'KitchenTimer' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/KitchenTimer.html) 'PlayLog' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/PlayLog.html) 'PowerCenter/BottleRocket' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/PowerCenter.html) 'SaverSwitcher' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/SaverSwitcher.html) 'SettingsManager' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/SettingsManager.html) 'SleepFade' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/SleepFade.html) 'StatusFirst' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/StatusFirst.html) 'SyncOptions' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/SyncOptions.html) 'VolumeLock' (http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/VolumeLock.html) peterw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2107 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
I think pfarrels and pski's reasing is sound . The UPS should not run i bypass mode and then switch to battery . The device protected should run of the generated AC after the DC stage . Even if modern UPS should be using static switches (not relays or contactors) and thus be able to switch within milliseconds . I think this is getting you better spike protection . But i would also use an overvoltage fillter/protection of some kind if lived in a rural area with lots of these events, there are (at least in the 220v world) avaible for plug in to the wall outlet. But I may be spoiled with what we use at my work, we do not power only computers, but plc's controll systems cpu boards of vsd drives and safety systems and emergency stop relays and other industrial equipment at the same time . Btw whatever UPS you get don't forget to change the battery after a couple of years, follow the advice from the battery manufacturer , life expectancy may vary. There are many UPS out there that are not UPS due to broken batteries . Maybe never UPS will have some kind of battery monitoring but if such alarms occur your very late . -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE for the rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Miscellaneous use: Radio (with battery) I use a Controller various ir-remotes and a Eee-PC with squeezeplay to control this Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
I'm thinking of using a UPS with my new vortexbox appliance as I live in an area that does have thunderstorms, etc. that can cause 1 minute to 30 minute power outages. Any suggestions as to brand/type? Also, any thoughts on what sort of bad things will happen when my vortexbox loses power unexpectedly without the normal exit. I'm new to linux systems. -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
