Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hi all, Mariusz renamed the branches this morning and merged the corresponding pull requests. Thank you! Please let us know if you spot problems so they can be fixed. Cheers, Markus On Tue, Mar 2, 2021, at 6:05 PM, Markus Holtermann wrote: > Brief update on this. > > The overall tracking

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Brief update on this. The overall tracking pull request ist https://github.com/django/django/pull/14048/ * On 2021-03-03 at UTC morning, well migrate django/code.djangoproject.com and django/djangoproject.com * Likely on 2021-03-09 we'll migrate django/django Cheers, Markus On Thu, Feb 25,

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Thanks for the input, Matthias. That's useful to know. I'll make sure the change is announced. Cheers, Markus On Thu, Feb 25, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Matthias Kestenholz wrote: > Yes, please. > > As a third party app developer I'll have to update a few GitHub > workflows and tox configurations

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Yes, please. As a third party app developer I'll have to update a few GitHub workflows and tox configurations (since I'm running testsuites against the main branch too). It may be useful to announce this change on as many channels as possible (mailing lists, the forum, as a news entry on the

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Yes, let's do it. I did it to my open source projects a couple weeks ago and everything has been smooth since. We'll need some find/replace for links in the main repo, on djangoproject.com, and I imagine some other places. On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 22:15, Kenneth wrote: > I agree. We should go

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I agree. We should go ahead and do the switch On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 11:57 AM Markus Holtermann wrote: > Hi all, > > Reviving an old topic. GitHub has by now tooling in place to rename > branches and keep open PRs in sync. In fact, if I were to change the > `master` branch to `main`, GitHub

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hi all, Reviving an old topic. GitHub has by now tooling in place to rename branches and keep open PRs in sync. In fact, if I were to change the `master` branch to `main`, GitHub tells me this: Renaming this branch: * Will update 158 pull requests targeting this branch across 112 repositories.

Re: The blacklist / master issue

+1 on a good decision to make this change. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: The blacklist / master issue

> > In this word developers said "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. > Some of community members have sent proposal for renaming blacklist, but we > 100% sure, that this term has nothing to do with racism. Moreover, terms > can't explain things 100% clear, we just use those terms to

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I'm sorry for my bad English On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 4:40:07 PM UTC+3, John Obelenus wrote: > > Alex I find the notion that you think changing terms that have bad racial > connotations to be "embarrassing" to be entirely without merit. It is not > embarrassing to consider the feelings of

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Alex I find the notion that you think changing terms that have bad racial connotations to be "embarrassing" to be entirely without merit. It is not embarrassing to consider the feelings of Black and other minority people when using language. Moreover, racism is not simply a US only phenomenon.

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Daryl, I've never called anyone egocentric here, maybe thinking in a very short-term - yes (like a person, who is making decision just by current needs and not thinking about future at all) > With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist / deny), these may be viewed as

Re: The blacklist / master issue

The focus while reading the Django pages should be on the differences between Django's governance approach (long term goal settings, a board of technical experts, meritocratic decision making) vs the many frameworks and projects that have flashed in the pan (please excuse me for using a phrase

Re: The blacklist / master issue

First things first: I'm glad, Django changed master/slave and blacklist/whitelist to more appropriate and adequate terms. Naming things is hard. And just because somebody came up with a name decades ago doesn't mean it can't — or even shouldn't — be changed. Especially when there are more

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now. > One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by one strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following. renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. I understand

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Alexander, """What is more important here, Django doesn't have a strong rules for making decision about how framework is building and changing""" *You couldn't be more wrong with this statement.* One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by one strong opinion, a whim

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Robert, thank you for your response. For me, as an experience developer, blacklist is more descriptive, since I saw this word in so many other places, languages, frameworks. But it is just me, I'm here not to say that my opinion is more important than anyone else's. What is more important

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hello, I totally agree with Alexader's position, and I re-iterate his sentiment: This is embarrassing. If I shared this discourse about whitelisting/blacklisting in the software field with founders of Back Lives Matter, I would suspect that they would look at me in a strange way. Don't do

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hey All, I see this opportunity to rename these things to be what they in plain, descriptive language. Since we will rarely have as many people together considering this change, I find it useful to think what we would have named these things from the beginning and then consider if our naming

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I would like to share this article which has pretty compelling arguments, especially regarding the feelings (point 4). On Monday, 15 June 2020 19:28:23 UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote: > > This ticket was closed wontfix >

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Btw, PR-author has now a privilege to create an article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allowlistening On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 11:11:02 AM UTC+3, Alexander Lyabah wrote: > > I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why > things that you are doing are embarrassing.

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why things that you are doing are embarrassing. I hoping that wikipedia will be not that populistic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelisting On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 5:32:58 PM UTC+3, Adam Johnson wrote: > > Alexander,

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged the PR's to Django. On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 13:51, Alexander Lyabah wrote: > let's not change the subject > > we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist / > blacklist and master / slave. Those

Re: The blacklist / master issue

let's not change the subject we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist / blacklist and master / slave. Those statements have a big history in programming, which has nothing to do with slavery at all. Don't mix words with meaning and senses. ... It is important

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Ahmad, > we should strive to set an international standard No, we shouldn't we are here for creating framework, just treat your child well and it is enough to changing the world for the best. > If a certain word is off-putting or problematic to individuals in our community We can always

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I'd argue that since Django is an international framework, we should strive to set an international standard. If a certain word is off-putting or problematic to individuals in our community, and if it does not convey an accurate and least astonishing meaning to a non-native English speaker, then

Re: The blacklist / master issue

As an international framework I think we should make our interface as language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are simply semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing argument for me. > On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah wrote: > >

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I've definitely in favour of fixing all of the problematic word usage - after all, we eliminated master/slave from the database documentation years ago, we've just been a bit negligent at fixing the others. Agreed with Adam, though, about seeing what GitHub builds - they announced they're

Re: The blacklist / master issue

On the branch rename, right now I'd rather wait to see what GitHub builds that could help with this. It might allow aliasing master->main so that existing PR's don't need targeting, local clones don't need updating, etc. It also seems Git will make a change and it might be worth waiting to see

Re: The blacklist / master issue

On moving away from the master branch, it would be a lot of effort (not just in the repo, but docs, Trac, etc.), but I think it's worth doing regardless. I think there is often some reluctance to do something time-consuming because it takes someone's time away from technical issues. I don't think

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Funny you should say that but the git developers mailing list in is awash with patches and shouting about just this at the moment. It looks likely the patches will go in too - so that's not much of an arguement against. On Tue, 2020-06-16 at 16:35 +0300, אורי wrote: > I think master is the

Re: The blacklist / master issue

__ From: django-developers@googlegroups.com on behalf of אורי Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 7:05:19 PM To: Django developers (Contributions to Django itself) Subject: Re: The blacklist / master issue I think master is the default branch name in any Git repository. It's not about Django and ev

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I think *master* is the default branch name in any Git repository. It's not about Django and even not GitHub. Do you want to change the default branch name in Git? אורי u...@speedy.net On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:28 PM Tom Carrick wrote: > This ticket was closed wontfix >

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I would suggest that this a relatively small change that would provide the community with a large return in being more inclusive. -Jorge On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 9:28:23 AM UTC-7, Tom Carrick wrote: > > This ticket was closed wontfix > as

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Git’s default branch name is a bit of a misnomer, however it refers to a master-slave relationship: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html Kye On 16 June 2020 at 4:24:32 pm, Fran Hrženjak (fran.hrzen...@gmail.com) wrote: Meaning "owner of slaves" is only one

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Meaning "owner of slaves" is only one of many meanings of the word, and not its primary meaning: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/master https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master Renaming the master branch would mean we agree that this one meaning is somehow more

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Just my 2 cents on this discussion as a junior contributor. I am very fond of how inclusive and progressive the Django community is. With that said, I believe that we shall definitely try to stop using the term blacklist for “bad/unwanted” things. If this change makes even only a few contributors,

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Note that the term "blacklist" only appears twice in the Django tree and only in comments/docs, as shown by David's patch. The first one can be omitted while the second one can be replaced by "exclude". That is trivial to do and shouldn't even require a discussion. About replacing "whitelist"

Re: The blacklist / master issue

+1 on this discussion progression. I too struggled with certain expressions in my earlier English-learning days, but today the used expressions don't carry any unnecessary baggage for me as my understanding of them is purely technical. So, while I myself don't have a problem with them, I can

Re: The blacklist / master issue

The Django it is a community framework and we have to pay attention to that. History play a major role in our daily lives and we have to avoid any word that have racial connection. Django community is growing fast in Africa and we hate things that taking us back to Apartheid/Slave era since

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Agreed. I thought DHH's argument was equally as compelling for making this change for rails: Regardless of origin, allow/deny are simply clearer terms that does not > require tracing the history of black/white as representations of that > meaning. We can simply use the meaning directly.

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Just my small contribution to the discussion... Independent of "social" aspects to the choice of words, the move towards "self explanatory terminology" is preferable, IMHO. As an example, it takes less mental effort or historical context to know what an "allow_list" is compared to a

Re: The blacklist / master issue

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 2:56:45 PM UTC-5, Daniele Procida wrote: > > We don't have to justify anything to anyone. If we want to change words in > *our* framework, it's absolutely nobody's business but our own. > > If black members of the DSF or the community are disheartened that the >

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hello, In the context of access control, blacklist / whitelist makes sense only if the reader has a preconceived assumption that black = bad, illegal, forbidden / white = good, legal, authorized. You can probably see where I'm going. Sure, blacklist / whitelist has nothing to do with race to

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I'd be in favor of changing blacklist/whitelist into something that makes sense. In many cases, that's going to be context dependent, but often blocklist/allowlist will work. With regards to "master" as the development branch on GitHub, I'd like to pick whatever GitHub eventually goes with as

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I don't participate in this list much but this is a solid +1 from me. We should do our best to adopt neutral language. Etymology/history is important, yes, but much less important that current impact and usage. On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 9:28:23 AM UTC-7, Tom Carrick wrote: > > This ticket was

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Tom Carrick wrote: >I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms >somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be >concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also >worried about our credibility if we don't. There are plenty of

Re: The blacklist / master issue

Hi, just my 2 cents: While I am generally critical of changing language to achieve social progress, I see no harm in using "main", "develop" or something like that instead of "master". There might be a tool or two out there that treat "master" specially, but I can't think of anything that would

Re: The blacklist / master issue

My initial response on the original PR was, looking it up, that “blacklist” wasn’t a race-related term. I then said, unless there are additional uses... It seems there are. In which case this seems a no-brainer. We should use better words. That’s an easy change. +1 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at

Re: The blacklist / master issue

I was preparing a post on this Tom, it was sitting in my drafts awaiting a little more research, but here we go. My summary: This small language change has been suggested many times in the technology sphere for two reasons. First, the allow/deny terms avoid the potentially offensive assocation

The blacklist / master issue

This ticket was closed wontfix as requiring a discussion here. David Smith mentioned this Tox issue stating it had been closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something