>
> But it is my place to warn that
> the bulk of modern peer-reviewed literature regarding the outcomes of
> human-mediated dispersal is 'tragically flawed'– by the fact that invasion
> biology's currency is vehement, almost competitive antipathy to its objects
> of study. The defining "anti" sta
Whether natural or cultural, every species takes advantage of opportunities to
disperses/migrate to colonize and multiply. And, when they colonize/invade a
new place (mostly already occupied), other species that have already there
before (e.g., native species) would be affected. Some may adjust,
du
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
> [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of James J. Roper
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:20 AM
> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminolo
On 5/13/2010 12:31 PM, Josh Donlan wrote:
I would argue the answer to this question is not so cut and dry. Recent genetic
evidence paints a more complicated story, and suggests quite close relationship
- at least genetically.
Weinstock et al. 2005. PLOS Biology
Evolution, Systematics, and Phyl
Email: mark.di...@usd.edu
-Original Message-
From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
[mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of James J. Roper
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:20 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and assoc
I would argue the answer to this question is not so cut and dry. Recent genetic
evidence paints a more complicated story, and suggests quite close relationship
- at least genetically.
Weinstock et al. 2005. PLOS Biology
Evolution, Systematics, and Phylogeography of Pleistocene Horses in the New
Matt has important points.
1. Alien is from somewhere else (that is, it's recent evolutionary
history does not include its current location) and natives are from the
place where they reside. AFTER that definition, we come to think that
aliens are different than residents, and we often find the
Under the terminology and definitions promoted by leading invasion
biologists including David Richardson and Petr Pyšek, 'alien' species and
their subset 'invasive' species are not routinely identified by their
ecological characteristics. Aliens are identified by subtracting historical
local biota
You do remember that the horses that went extinct in North America are not
the same ones that came back with the Spaniards? So, yes, they are
introduced.
However, horses are not really the issue with introduced species, although
they are causing animated debates in the few states that have feral
Are horses exotic or native if they evolved in North America and then
subsequently reintroduced?
==
Randy Bangert
On May 12, 2010, at 3:56 PM, James J. Roper wrote:
> Good question Martin,
>
> But, yes, I would remove all of those from any and all natura
Jim, you raise a good point (or more) about the kinds of arguments that
work.
The problem with moral arguments is that they are so nebulous and subjective
that they will never defeat a person who just doesn't want to change. I can
think of many examples, but none seems to be politically correct t
Good question Martin,
But, yes, I would remove all of those from any and all natural settings, and
keep them on farms, just like you suggested. As for the animals, they are
massive conservation problems in their own rights, so I won't go into why we
should all be vegetarian - :-|
As you say, k
h act in
ways that have no obvious benefit but which meet destructive psychological
needs.
Bill Silvert
- Original Message -
From: "Wayne Tyson"
To:
Sent: quarta-feira, 12 de Maio de 2010 21:00
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Coloniz
-
From: "Martin Meiss"
To:
Sent: quarta-feira, 12 de Maio de 2010 17:17
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing species etc
So, Mr. Patton, if you could, would you re-introduce smallpox and polio?
It
took nature millions of years t
Really, Mr. Roper (the formality is to avoid confusion between the two
Jims)? You would favor removal of such exotics from North America as wheat,
apples, oranges, horses, cattle, goats, pigs, and honeybees? Wouldn't you
settle for trying to keep them from running wild, rather than eliminating
th
perceived shot-term benefit. Pedagogical but true in my view.
Cordially yours,
Geoff Patton, Ph.D. 2208 Parker Ave., Wheaton, MD 20902
301.221.9536
--- On Tue, 5/11/10, James Crants wrote:
From: James Crants
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing s
Jim,
I hope my (perhaps) subtle tongue in cheek comments about invasives has
not confused the issue. I completely agree that human caused
introductions are to be avoided at all costs, and active eradication of
exotics should be undertaken as a default position until a
well-developed argument
lly yours,
> > Geoff Patton, Ph.D. 2208 Parker Ave., Wheaton, MD 20902
> 301.221.9536
> >
> > --- On Tue, 5/11/10, James Crants wrote:
> >
> > From: James Crants
> > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
> > Colonizing sp
Jim and others,
Your last sentence converges on the point I was trying to make: if you
compared native species, as a group, against exotic species, as a group, you
would find statistically significant ecological differences (ie, trends),
even though you would also find numerous exceptions to thos
gt;
> Cordially yours,
> Geoff Patton, Ph.D. 2208 Parker Ave., Wheaton, MD 20902 301.221.9536
>
> --- On Tue, 5/11/10, James Crants wrote:
>
> From: James Crants
> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
> Colonizing species etc
> To: ECOLOG-
Jason,
There are few things qualitatively different about any dispersal agent.
But, considering the impact and abundance of humans and their dispersal
agents these days, there is a quantitative difference. Also, there is a
qualitative difference at least in one respect. Dispersal is an evol
James Crants wrote on 11-May-10 13:05:
There's a difference between saying that two species are not
ecologically equivalent and saying that two categories of species are
not ecologically equivalent.
But, ecological "equivalents" are not really "equal" in such a way that
they are substitutable
es
to lie neglected, unused for the most part.
- Original Message -
From: "William Silvert"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing species etc
Although Jim Crants in a later post raised ques
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena Colonizing
species etc
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
I think I have not made my arguments clearly enough. I merely intended
to summarize my moral case for suppressing invasives as part of
What, then, is the ecological difference between humans as a dispersal agent,
and, say, seabirds as a dispersal agent? When we study Hawaiian native plants,
are we not studying "how natural selection influenced organisms after their
introduction, or as a consequence of
the introduction of othe
To go straight to the meat of the issue:
William Silvert wrote on 11-May-10 11:31:
One of the greatest invasions in ecological history occurred when the
Mediterranean connected to the Atlantic Ocean. How fundamentally
different is that from the opening of the Suez or Panama canals?
Well, sur
: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:06 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena Colonizing
species etc
Jim Roper,
There's a difference between saying that two species are not
ecologically equivalent and saying that two categories of specie
the Suez or Panama canals?
>
> Bill Silvert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James J. Roper"
>
> To:
> Sent: segunda-feira, 10 de Maio de 2010 22:52
>
> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
> Colonizing species etc
>
&
Jim Roper,
There's a difference between saying that two species are not
ecologically equivalent and saying that two categories of species are not
ecologically equivalent. If exotic species (as a category) were
ecologically equivalent to native ones, you would still find that every
species would d
I think I have not made my arguments clearly enough. I merely intended
to summarize my moral case for suppressing invasives as part of my summary
of the off-forum conversation. My numbered paragraphs were intended to
address the claim that there is no ecological difference between native and
exot
utely.
Scott Higgins
-Original Message-
From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
[mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of James Crants
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:23 PM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated pheno
we can also control
some natural events.
Bill
- Original Message -
From: "James J. Roper"
To: "William Silvert"
Cc:
Sent: terça-feira, 11 de Maio de 2010 15:45
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing species etc
Hi Jim et al.,
I guess I don't undertand what one would mean by your question, as to
whether they "behave" differently. No two species behave the same in
any event, so any given pair of species "behaves" differently,
regardless of origin. Have you read Ricklefs - Disintegration of the
ecolo
ot;
To:
Sent: segunda-feira, 10 de Maio de 2010 22:52
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing species etc
But that question is easy to answer. If humans put the species in a place
or it arrived in a place that it would not have gotten to on i
Jim,
Actually, you answered the question of whether exotic and native species can
be distinguished at all, while the question we could not agree on is whether
the distinction is ecologically meaningful. Does an exotic species behave
differently from a native one? If not, then why should it matte
Okay, I've taken the bait - or at least, I'm nibbling at it. Earlier today
Jim Crants pretty accurately summarized the points I made off-list, for
which I thank him. Here I'm responding to his paragraph regarding 'moral
grounds' and to his numbered paragraphs (1-4). In order to minimize
repeated
Ah Jim,
But that question is easy to answer. If humans put the species in a
place or it arrived in a place that it would not have gotten to on its
own, then it is introduced, otherwise it is native or natural. Clearly
this is a mere consequence of the short history of humans as dispersal
ag
There is no way to avoid a value judgement in the whole IAS issue, a
certain amount of objectivity is useful but really it is a management
orientated discipline, you are not interested in whether a species is
alien per se but whether it is having a negative impact on values you
hold dear. Usually
- Original Message -
From: "James Crants"
To:
Sent: segunda-feira, 10 de Maio de 2010 16:51
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecology Terminology and associated phenomena
Colonizing species etc
In our conversation, Matthew Chew argued that the distinction between native
and exotic
Jim and others,
In the discussion off-forum, we were unable to come to any conclusions
because we could not agree on answer to even the most fundamental question:
is the distinction between exotic and native species ecologically
meaningful? If you can't agree on that, there's no point in going on
Wayne, and others,
This email was nebulous enough to where it appears to me that several
concepts are being bantered around to the detriment of resolving any.
Of course all terms are relative - we humans made up language to put
names on things to help us.
The problem of invasive species is
Ecolog:
Back on April 12, 2010, I posted an enquiry along these lines that resulted in
an off-list discussion between three Ecolog-l subscribers and three others. A
lot of interesting points were made, but this side discussion did not, in my
view, settle the matter of what terminology, if any,
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