Re: [Elecraft] K3 Assembly

2009-04-05 Thread ON4WIX
Frank, it's not 'on the List' anymore, it's been implemented in F/W for quite a while now. You can read all about it if you search for quick memories in the pdf version of the K3 User Manual. You can find all details on page 16, about halfway down the left column (Memories 00-09 are quick

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Band button suggestion

2009-04-05 Thread ON4WIX
I've actually had the same thing happen here once or twice when attempting to record or play back some audio with my K3's DVR. I managed to change the contents of my M1-M4 freq/mode memories while fiddling with the DVR. Operator error of course. Some sort of software lock that can be turned on

[Elecraft] New

2009-04-05 Thread Andy
Hi all after a few hours yesterday (most of the day) help from my brother Jim M0CKE I now have a K3/100 up running. QTH here is 5 miles North of Wisbech in Cambs. I'll join in the net when I can but I'm busy some Sunday mornings. Thanks Andy (M0CHK)

[Elecraft] K3 band buttons

2009-04-05 Thread rfenabled
FWIW I think Elecraft would achieve a lot more if they made a Keypad Interface with Programmable Keys to enable users to create their own unique way of operating. As I see it the radio simply does not have the number of available keys/knobs to be able make a lot of features easy to use. I

[Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Maarten van Rossum
Hello everybody, During last CQ WPX contest I got the chance to put my K3 to work at our contest station PI4DX. We participated in the Multi One klass which allows us to use 2 radio's, one running station and one multiplier station. We used my K3 on the running station and a Icom IC-7700 on the

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Jim
Maarten, I found just the opposite having compared my K3 with two separate 7700's with the K3 winning out each time. Also my wife being a non Ham picked the K3 audio over both of the 7700's each time. 73 de KE4WY Jim -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net

Re: [Elecraft] K3 band buttons

2009-04-05 Thread Doug Turnbull
Gary and all, I believe your idea has merit. I am a K3 Novice predominantly using an Orion 2. The remote Pod of the O2 is a God Send for contesting. What I really like about it is being able to access the CW SSB memories without the need for jabbing at small buttons on the rig during the

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Enno, PF5X
Hi Maarten, I tend to agree with your observations. If you live in a noisy environment like I do, the K3 RX can be quite restless and listening fatigue comes in easy. I played with the AGC setting a while ago and came up with the following settings in the CONFIG menu: AGC SLP 008, AGC THR

[Elecraft] [K3] For Sale: Higher Power Antenna Tuner for K3

2009-04-05 Thread Joe G
If you use an amp with your K3, you will need a higher power ATU. I have an MFJ-993B 300 Watt Intelli-Tuner for sale. Unit is in like new condition with original manual. This is a great auto tuner, easy to use and probably one of the best units MFJ sells. Unit handles 2 antennas, has lots

[Elecraft] Inductive Kick

2009-04-05 Thread David Robertson
Carl, I completely agree with you. I have seen 12 volt DC relays produce as much as 1000 volts peak or more when the current to the relay coil was terminated. This term was taught to me as Inductive Kick. When any coil of wire has DC current pass through it, a magnetic field is produced and

[Elecraft] UK Elecraft net report for Sunday 5th April

2009-04-05 Thread Dave G4AON
Many of the regular net stations were attending the Blackpool Rally, only myself, Brendan (EI6IZ), Richard (G4CGG) and Tim (G4ARI) were around today on 3627 KHz. Items of interest were the K6XX CW tuning indicator for the K2, the Amtor activity evenings recently included in the RSGB news (Tuesday

[Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread Dave G4AON
There's an interesting IC-7600 review on eHam where RFEXPERT is comparing his new IC-7600 with his K3. http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/7775 73 Dave, G4AON K3/100 #80 __ Elecraft mailing list Home:

Re: [Elecraft] [K2] Aligning CW SSB filters...Crystal heaters running perfect

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
Mike, You may want to look at me website www.w3fpr.com K2 Dial Calibration article for some information. Part 3 of that article deals with filter alignment, both CW and SSB. The important factor is to align the -3dB point on the low frequency end of the passband at 300 Hz. The OP1 filter

[Elecraft] K3 software glitch with 3.04

2009-04-05 Thread KZ5D
I've been using this version with no problem until today. Had K-3 on 30 m, running 100 w. Second receiver on 40. Decided to switch bands, using the A/B button. 40m frequency was then on the A RX and i started to transmit. The output power was 100 w, not the usual setting I use on 40 which

Re: [Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread Robert Naumann
It's too bad that RFEXPERT does not identify himself so that one could measure RFEXPERT's ability to make such an analysis. 73, Bob W5OV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dave G4AON Sent: Sunday, April 05,

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Maarten van Rossum
Thanks everybody for your replies, I have played with the shift and Hi/Low cut and although it does help, it's not what is should be. The radio was not used in a noisy environment, it is usually fairly quiet here. I will however have a look into the AGC settings and see if that brings any help.

Re: [Elecraft] UK Elecraft net report for Sunday 5th April

2009-04-05 Thread Mike-WE0H
I just ordered the components to build a KR5L CW Tuning Indicator for my K2. Waiting on the IC from overseas. Have to layout a board and etch it yet. Bought a neat orange super bright LED for the Lock button cap. That should look interesting in that color. Mike WE0H K2 6698 Dave G4AON wrote:

[Elecraft] Explanation why Thailand bans hf transceivers with 6 m capability: military use of 6 m

2009-04-05 Thread Chris Wagner
Can you please provide us, esp. Elecraft, with more details about WHY the K3 has been banned? Maybe they can do something about fixing the reason for it being banned. And I'm sure our members would like to know as well. *** Hi All: An American professor, Charlie HS0.. tried to import the K3.

[Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread James Sarte
Hello group, Working phone on 40m tonight, and noticed that I could only set mic gain to 3 before ALC maxed out on the K3's meter. Is this normal? I'm using the stock Elecraft hand mic. 73, James K3JPS __ Elecraft mailing

Re: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread Matt Zilmer
You might have MENU:MIC SEL set to rP.H or FP.H. You can use the '1' key on the keypad to drop this gain to .L if that is the problem. It just sounds like the mic input signal / gain is too hot. I have four mics here that are used with the K3 and typically need to run MIC GAIN at between 15 and

Re: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread Robert Naumann
Maybe your SWR is really high? -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James Sarte Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:35 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question Hello group,

Re: [Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread Robert Naumann
Mark, Certainly everyone is entitled to his own opinion and I did note that he makes comments both pro and con on both radios - sort of. It is my biased personal opinion that such anonymous critiques are not worth reading nor worth taking any note of since the source is completely unknown and

Re: [Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
Everyone is allowed to make their biased analysis. However, it is not appropriate to shill for a manufacturer. Analysis should be balanced and based on accurate information. If you read carefully you will notice he mentions good and bad points for both models. Unfortunately, each of his

[Elecraft] K3

2009-04-05 Thread Phil LaMarche
I have the Sub installed but when I try to change No to Yes in the VFO IND it says unavailable? I want to monitor 6 meters with the Sub. ?? Phil Philip LaMarche LaMarche Enterprises, Inc. http://www.instantgourmetspices.com/ www.instantgourmetspices.com www.w9dvm.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread SidShusterman
We beat this review to death two months ago. Check the archives. Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Everyone is allowed to make their biased analysis. Compared with the K3, the 7600 is overpriced and lacking. Dual Watch is a joke compared to the KRX3 and even with USB pasted over the CI-V

Re: [Elecraft] K3 band buttons

2009-04-05 Thread Bob Cunnings
Have you tried setting CONFIG:SQ MAIN to = SUB POT so that you can use the SUB part of the SQL/RF dual knob? It's described in the manual on page 58 under the CONFIG:SQ MAIN entry in the table. Bob NW8L On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:04 AM, rfenab...@gmail.com wrote: I just upgraded to the latest

Re: [Elecraft] K3 vs. Icom IC-7600

2009-04-05 Thread Bob Cunnings
No, that was his review of the IC-7700. The subject review of the IC-7600 was just posted yesterday. Bob NW8L On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 9:23 AM, SidShusterman k...@comcast.net wrote: We beat this review to death two months ago.  Check the archives.

Re: [Elecraft] K2 CW tuning indicator: was UK Elecraft net report

2009-04-05 Thread Dave G4AON
Mike you might want to try something less visually distracting than a super bright LED, I find the 40 dB over 9 LED (the one already fitted in the K2 S-meter) used with the K6XX indicator annoying at times and it's not bright at all. I think the tuning indicator will eventually be removed, I

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Paul Christensen
We used my K3 on the running station and a Icom IC-7700 on the multiplier station. This was actually the first time I could compare the K3 to a high end transceiver such as the IC-7700. I was surprised to find out that the 7700 sounded much better. Maarten, At my station, the K3, '7700, and

Re: [Elecraft] K3

2009-04-05 Thread Eric Swartz -WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Try the latest beta release on the web site. Its now enabled. :-) 73, Eric WA6HHQ === Phil LaMarche wrote: I have the Sub installed but when I try to change No to Yes in the VFO IND it says unavailable? I want to monitor 6 meters with the Sub. ?? Phil _..._

Re: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread James Sarte
Hi Matt, Thanks for the reply. I adjusted the mic bias to low as you detailed, and now I can set mic gain to around 8-10 before ALC pegs. At 11, ALC reads full scale. I'm using the MH2 hand mic. Must be a pretty hot mic. 73, James K3JPS -Original Message- From: Matt Zilmer

Re: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread James Sarte
Hello Robert, I was on 7.175 and SWR is reading 1.2 on both internal and external meters so I doubt that would be an issue. I did adjust mic gain bias to low, and can now move it up to anywhere between 8-10 before it ALC starts to max out. 73, James K3JPS -Original Message- From:

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Evert Bakker (PA2KW)
Maarten Wrote: Several other operators also stated the K3's audio was hissy and sharp and not nice and smooth. We could hear it using the built-in speaker as well as on a Heil Pro Set Plus. I think there is nothing wrong with your K3. About a week ago I reported the bad audio quality of the

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Ellington
Those that have complained about hissy and noisy audio all have one thing in commonAll 3 are in the Netherlands. Could there be some common thread among residences in this region that enables one to detect these K3 abnormalities? Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message

Re: [Elecraft] Explanation why Thailand bans hf transceivers with 6 m capability: military use of 6 m

2009-04-05 Thread Radio Amateur N5GE
On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:01:23 -0400, Jack Smith jack.sm...@cliftonlaboratories.com wrote: Total guess, but western military FM communications use the frequency bands 30-88 MHz, so any transceiver capable of operating on 6 meters could listen and transmit on a portion of the military FM band.

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Evert Bakker (PA2KW)
Are we (dutch) all using the same version of Heil headset? I never noticed this high hiss with my old Telex headphones (with a smaller freq-response I guess) 73's, Evert PA2KW -Original Message- From: Steve Ellington [mailto:n...@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 19:48 To:

Re: [Elecraft] Explanation why Thailand bans hf transceivers with 6 m capability: military use of 6 m

2009-04-05 Thread Ken Alexander
Can you please provide us, esp. Elecraft, with more details about WHY the K3 has been banned? Maybe they can do something about fixing the reason for it being banned. And I'm sure our members would like to know as well. *** Hi All: An American professor, Charlie HS0.. tried to import the

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Wes Stewart
--- On Sun, 4/5/09, Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com wrote: From: Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio To: ev...@pa2kw.com, 'Maarten van Rossum' pd2r.maar...@gmail.com, 'Elecraft Group' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: 'Gary

Re: [Elecraft] Explanation why Thailand bans hf transceivers with 6 m capability: military use of 6 m

2009-04-05 Thread Jack Smith
By western I mean NATO or US standards, compared with standards developed by the former USSR and Warsaw Pact, commonly called east bloc. The geographical location of Thailand is not material in this context. Jack Radio Amateur N5GE wrote: On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:01:23 -0400, Jack Smith

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Ellington
The exception proves the rule. Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Wes Stewart n...@yahoo.com To: ev...@pa2kw.com; 'Maarten van Rossum' pd2r.maar...@gmail.com; 'Elecraft Group' elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com Sent: Sunday,

[Elecraft] For Sale

2009-04-05 Thread Ed G
Mint Elecraft HexKey; write for pix if interested but looks identical to what's posted on the Elecraft site. Magnetic mechanism based on the Mercury paddle. Complete with hex wrench. $160. __ Elecraft mailing list Home:

[Elecraft] Inductive Kicks

2009-04-05 Thread ALAN GARD
Hi All   Interested to read the mailings on this topic.  I've not seen any reference to an effect which used sometimes to catch us out years back when using diodes to de-click audio installations. Shunting the coil with a diode (at least with the rather big telephone-type relays of the period)

Re: [Elecraft] Inductive Kicks

2009-04-05 Thread Jack Smith
__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:

Re: [Elecraft] Inductive Kicks

2009-04-05 Thread Dick Dievendorff
One point that I stumbled over is that adding a simple snubbing diode across a relay coil increases the relay hold time. The current flow through the diode when the supply voltage is removed goes through the relay coil, countering the spring force that is returning the relay to the normal state.

[Elecraft] Secure shopping !v

2009-04-05 Thread Robert Sands
Hello!How are you recently? I would like to introduce a good company who trades mainly in electornic products.Now the company is under sales promotion,all the products are sold nearly at its cost.They provide the best service to customers,they provide you with original products of good

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Jack Brindle
I felt the same thing when I first started using my K3. As I started learning how to adjust the IF filter controls I found that as the bandwidth became more optimum I was also able to cut out the super highs and lows. The K3 can give you a really wide audio frequency spectrum if you want

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Ellington
Meaning: The exception proves the Rule. If there is an exception to the rule, then there must be then be a rule. Since 3 Dutch hear hissing K3s, we have a rule however you being an exception proves that there must be a rule. Another explanation could be that perhaps you have some Dutch in the

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Carl Clawson
It's commonly misunderstood saying. It uses an almost-obsolete meaning of the verb prove which means test. (As in proving grounds.) The exception tests the rule. 73, Carl WS7L --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com wrote: The exception proves the rule. And what's

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread ab2tc
Hi all, In my view the only problem with the K3 being hissy is the AGC threshold. On 20m and below even with AGC threshold set to the maximum (008), just the atmospheric noise is at or above the threshold and this is indeed tiring to listen to. I solve the problem by turning down the RF

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Ellington
Perhaps the band noise is more obvious in the K3 because the low frequency audio is restricted causing the noise to be distributed over a more narrow range. This lack of bass tends to induce for ear fatigue. Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: ab2tc

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Evert Bakker (PA2KW)
Hello Jack, Thanks for all info. I played around a while with the IF_BW controls. The problem is that the level and sound of the high hiss, isn't depending on the IF BW. I just tried 50 Hz BW on CW and listening to a stronger signal. I still hear the same hiss with the same strength and sound. I

Re: [Elecraft] K3: Mic setting and ALC question

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
James, Do you have an RF in the shack problem there? Just a guess, but one possible explanation. It sounds to me like the mic input of the K3 is tolerating low level RF, but as the amount of RF increases, the RF feedback overloads the mic input. Have you changed anything in your antenna field

Re: [Elecraft] Inductive Kick

2009-04-05 Thread David Cutter
The usual diode across the coil is simple and effective for the vast majority of situations but the rate of change of current can induce undesirable effects in nearby sensitive circuits which the diode exacerbates. For most relays we see in ham rigs a 1N400x series diode is often used, when a

[Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Ralph Parker
...the K3's audio was hissy and sharp and not nice and smooth. We could hear it using the built-in speaker as well as on a Heil Pro Set I think so too. The high hiss level is the thing I like least about my K3 :-( VE7XF (retired after 45 years of sound recording)

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
If I may throw my two pennies into the discussion - I use medium quality amplified speakers on my K3, and with the speaker amplifier turned up and the K3 connected to a dummy load, I hear no evidence of any hissy receiver noise - very quiet. My conclusion from that is the hissy sound is not from

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Merv Schweigert
I will also confirm the audio leaves a lot to be desired. More than just a couple exceptions, perhaps some of us did not drink the Kool Aide. The exception proves the rule. Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Wes Stewart n...@yahoo.com To:

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread John N1JM
I guess I would have to listen to another K3, but the audio is no better than my TS480 with internal speaker. If I may throw my two pennies into the discussion - I use medium quality amplified speakers on my K3, and with the speaker amplifier turned up and the K3 connected to a dummy load, I

Re: [Elecraft] KX-1 has been born, TWICE

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
Bob and all, Bob is correct, the free green lead of L2 must not make contact with the L2 lead 4 (red) solder pad or wire. The manual tells the builder to strip the green wire leaving 1/8 inch (3mm) of insulation beyond the point where the wire leaves the core. First step, do that, it may be

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Maarten van Rossum
Thank you all for the great replies, most were very helpful. I'll keep you posted once I have experimented some more. 73, Maarten 2009/4/6 Merv Schweigert k...@flex.com I will also confirm the audio leaves a lot to be desired. More than just a couple exceptions, perhaps some of us did not

Re: [Elecraft] Secure shopping !v [REMOVED]

2009-04-05 Thread Eric Swartz -WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Looks like someone's pc got infected and the virus sent spam to everyone in their address book. First time that has happened here in a long time! I've removed and blocked the offending email address from the list. 73, Eric WA6HHQ Elecraft List Moderator Robert Sands wrote: Hello!How are you

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Evert Bakker (PA2KW)
Hi Don, It is definitely not band-noise what I'm talking about. You need a decent signal level (audio strength) to hear it. For me, I'm quite sure it has to do with the digitalization. That sound is far from natural and is ADDITIONAL to the normal audio signal. That addition sounds sharp,

Re: [Elecraft] UK Elecraft net report for Sunday 5th April

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
Mike, I understand that you have already ordered the parts, but a more compact CW tuning indicator is the K6XX indicator (similar circuit). The board was designed by Tom Hammond and a kit of parts is available - see http://www.n3epa.org/Pages/K6XX/K6XXCWIndicatorKit.htm for the kit. If you

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Jack Smith
There is a 3.9 KHz digitization artifact about 78 dB down from normal audio level. Is this what you hear? It's quite visible in a spectrum analyzer view of the K3's audio output. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm - about half way down the page under Headphone

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Don Wilhelm
Evert. I have no intention to dispute your observations. It is just that mine are different. You are justified in being persistent to find out if there is a problem with some K3s or if it is a localized problem, or exactly what, but as far as I can tell, it is not apparent on my K3. In my

Re: [Elecraft] My K3's hissy and noisy audio

2009-04-05 Thread Eric Scace K3NA
I have very sensitive in-ear monitors. The K3 (and the Orion, and possibly other radios) has significant hiss. I inserted an attenuator and knocked the hiss down below my ability to detect it. There is plenty of audio range remaining. You may find 10 to 20 dB will help.

Re: [Elecraft] KX-1 has been born, TWICE

2009-04-05 Thread Ron D'Eau Claire
BG wrote: My only nit-pick refers to the (routing) of the green toroid wire L2-1 from the LPF1 module to the KX-1 BOARD. The errata sheet gives the 100% correct procedure, but practicality told me it won't work. For the record, all the Elecraft assembly procedures are

Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio

2009-04-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
As I recall some of the sharpness in the audio can be attributed to the impedance of the headphones used. Low impedance transducers (particularly 8 and 16 Ohms) require the headset amplifier to run harder which brings up not only the broadband noise but results in higher levels of

[Elecraft] both K3 are spoken for - mni tnx de Chris Kf6vci

2009-04-05 Thread Chris Wagner
Only an unbuilt Norcal 2030 kit is left. 73, Chris __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:

[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report for April 5th 6th, 2009

2009-04-05 Thread Kevin Rock
Good Evening, I am now sure spring is nigh. The QRN on 40 meters was testament to its imminent arrival. 20 meters had QSB but then so did 40 meters. 20 meters was quite long because I got HR9 out of the mud. Well actually I got /WQ7R and Kent got the HR9 part. Thank you Kent! I need a

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 2.7 KHz filter available

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Ward
The filter has been sold. Thanks! Steve Ward wrote: Greetings all, I just finished my upgrades to my K3 (DVR, some new filters, several of the mods) and as a result I now have a surplus KFL3A-2.7K. If you are in need of a filter or are looking for a particular offset, this one is -.87