> If it's not multimedia, why was 60065 applied?
Mr. McBurney "submitted a product for CB
certification to IEC/EN/UL 60065."
Rich
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
di
Woodgate' <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Power Supply Safety approval
> There are differences, but I suppose citing
Guide 112
> would deal with that.
I don't believe that Guide 112 applies as this equipment was not designated
"mult
hich
is the meat of the standard. The cert house would
test the power supply to many of the 60065
requirements.
Rich
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discussion list. To post a message to the l
I submitted the CB documentation for the power
supply along with the product to the safety
testing agency.
I am surprised that the testing agency decided to
dismantle the power supply and thoroughly evaluate
it even though it is already pre-approved.
While the power supply meets 60950
national version (K60065-0.1) disallows other than functional
insulation.
Brian
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 4:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Power Supply Safety approval
Dear colleagues.
I have submitted a product fo
co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
> [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:47 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Power Sup
...@cetest.nl]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Power Supply Safety approval
I think the answer to your question is the difference in product standards
between your product and the power supply.
A example: the 60950 power supply does
.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Power Supply Safety approval
Dear colleagues.
I have submitted a product for CB certifi
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
according to EC-directives:
- Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
- Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
- Medical Devices 93/42/EC
- Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Pro
documentation for the power supply along with the product to
the safety testing agency.
I am surprised that the testing agency decided to dismantle the power supply
and thoroughly evaluate it even though it is already pre-approved.
Is this usual and if so why bother with a pre-approved power supply if you
: Thursday, June 09, 2016 6:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Ralph,
This might be true but that is not how we saw it way back when. The 240VA
"Energy Hazard" was not a consideration for the protection ag
ffective.
Rich
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equirement.
Rich
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"Hazardous Live" if the
circuit exceeds 240VA. This requirement is not specifically called out in our
working safety standard (IEC/EN 61010-1 for Laboratory Equipment) but we still
take this condition under consideration especially with products that exposes
the user to high curr
t.
Rich
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-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
> Example: I measure and determine that an electrolytic
> capacitor temperature is compliant with the standard, but
> what happens when that capacitor eventually fails due to
> large ri
s message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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Attachments are not permitted b
PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Tried a flint and steel recently? Lots of history!
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:
@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
> So, for the protection against FIRE, we have two energy
> rates, 100VA and 240VA, used across quite a number of
> standards, and the units are wrong. Should be Watts.
Agree. But, for pessimis
15 watts!
The standards use 100 watts, and we have product fires (as shown in recall
notices). (I'm not familiar with standards that specify 240 VA.)
Rich
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discus
> " Safety standards are not tested to see if they accomplish
> the objective"
>
> I'm not sure how one would go about doing that, other
> than gathering data from customer returns and from
> product recalls.
All safety standards include means to deter
-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 1:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
So, for the protection against FIRE, we have two energy rates, 100VA and 240VA
The requirements in the standards include 'safety factors' intended to allow
for unquantified variations between samples.
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 9:22 PM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTS
Tried a flint and steel recently? Lots of history!
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 5:27 PM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for di
printing this e-mail
-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 1:27 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test methods for dif
: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
> Not following instructions is foreseeable misuse...
Depends.
I define "misuse" as using the product for some use other than its intended
use. Standing on a chair is misuse of the chair.
Misuse (my defin
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Hi Chuck,
A poor choice of words on my part. I should have written, "in most of the
standards I have worked in". Those include CSA107.1, UL1741, UL1012, and
IEC62109-1
The 240VA (I think they meant 240W) must
" Safety standards are not tested to see if they accomplish the objective"
I'm not sure how one would go about doing that, other than gathering data from
customer returns and from product recalls. It may not be only a problem with
standards, but also with how the standards a
ot;inherently limited
power source."
Rich
-
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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org>
All
t;Energy Hazard" and take that into
consideration as part of our Risk Assessment even though it is not called out
specifically in the IEC/EN 61010-1 (the safety standard we use at my present
place of employment).
The Other Brian
-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar..
uck August-McDowell [mailto:chu...@meyersound.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 11:22 AM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Hi Ralph,
I live in the IEC/EN/UL 60065 standard world.
Could yo
have separate fault trees.
If you define "misuse" as "not following instructions," then one top event and
one fault tree.
Rich
-
----
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
d
-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 5:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Hi John:
Thanks for your additional comments.
> Could it be that the scenarios which the standa
11:11 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
>
> Rich.
>
> Could it be that the scenarios which the standards committees envisage are not
> "the real deal", OR that the products
inority.
Fires occur under fault conditions. Not following instructions is a sort-of
fault condition, but rarely the cause of a fire.
Rich
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list.
the number of counterfeit products on the market
worldwide is so great that they are the cause (they minimise the production
costs by "deleting" the safety features (i.e. the features that ensure that
fires don't occur) .
The EU RAPEX system identifies thousands of such products, and
Our most common and serious safety issue is that of product electrically-caused
fire. I subscribe to "In Compliance" weekly recall notices; most are fire.
As Gert Gremmen has stated, no fault-testing has resulted in a product fire in
the test lab, yet product fires continu
@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Gert
In many instances I think you are probably on the right track - but mainly
w.r.t. to 61010 kit for professional / semi-professional use, as opposed to
60950 where a lot of the kit certified
RG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
I was wondering if these type of fire propagation tests are still of any
relevance.
Nowadays most electronic designs have been built with compliant (be it UL or
VDE or any other reputable test house) and wir
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
according to EC-directives:
- Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
- Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
- Medical Devices 93/42/EC
- Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5
Hmm. Thanks to Ted Eckert, the small tablet may have been methenamine.
Rich
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the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
reflect those of my
employer.
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 3:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Rich,
Congratulations on your IEEE Fellow appointment. Do we
by igniting several bars in sealed
chamber, then marching the troops in to subsequently remove their masks to sing
our ‘tribal song’.
Brian
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods
EE.ORG; 'John Woodgate' <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
BTW: if that “safety expert” had looked closer, I think he would have found
that something like 60065 would have been far more difficult with which to
comply than
BTW: if that “safety expert” had looked closer, I think he would have found
that something like 60065 would have been far more difficult with which to
comply than the correct standard (which was presumably probably some Part 2 of
60335?).
John E Allen
W. London, UK
From: John Allen
John
Re
“I had an enquiry once as to whether IEC 60065 could be applied to a 10 kW
industrial fan heater, because that was the only standard their safety expert
knew about.”
He was a “safety expert”? I’m not, but at least I know more than that L!
John E Allen
W. London, UK
in the committee
to the fact that all the necessary work hasn't in fact been done by another
committee, you may not be overly popular.
I had an enquiry once as to whether IEC 60065 could be applied to a 10 kW
industrial fan heater, because that was the only standard their safety expert
knew
was adequate – and we were!
John E Allen
W. London, UK
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: 21 May 2016 18:32
To: 'John Allen'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Hi John:
Thanks for your comments
with the standard will depend on
the certification engineer and the policies of the certification house (and
your ability to convince them that the construction is adequate).
Rich
-
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@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
In my last job I tried to do something similar w.r.t. PWB materials for
applications where V-1 or better materials aren’t any good because the
retardants result in reduced service lives
with evolved gasses from the epoxy. Test in place (vertical or
> horizontal).
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> -
> ----
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> di
-
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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
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http://www.ieee-pses.o
ld lead you to UL
> 723 (ASTM E84) amongst other things
>
>
>
> John E Allen
>
>
>
> *From:* John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
> *Sent:* 19 May 2016 18:31
> *To:* 'Adam Dixon'; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
> *Subject:* RE: [PSES] fire s
Also do a search for “UL flame spread test” and it should lead you to UL 723
(ASTM E84) amongst other things
John E Allen
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 19 May 2016 18:31
To: 'Adam Dixon'; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
Subject: RE: [PSES] fire safety test
of electrotechnical
products –
General guidelines”
John E Allen.
W.London, UK
From: Adam Dixon [mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com]
Sent: 19 May 2016 13:44
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] fire safety test methods for different country standards
Apart from purchasing multiple standards
Apart from purchasing multiple standards, are there reference materials
that may guide preliminary in-house fire safety testing (flame spread) for
materials categorized as building components? I have come across summary
descriptions of multiple test standards (BS476, ISO9705, ISO5660, DIN-4102
your understanding if
> the labs that are provided are capable of doing IEC 60601-1 (medical
> electrical equipment and systems standard). If you also have any direct
> contact info to the medical group that would be greatly appreciated too.
>
> The ones I know and please correct if I am wro
to
the medical group that would be greatly appreciated too.
The ones I know and please correct if I am wrong are:
UL - SJC - Electrical Safety - they do medical
ETL or Intertek - Menlo Park - Electrical Safety - they do medical
I know there are other labs in the Bay Area but haven't used any of late
Hi
People on LinkedIn may have seen this, but others may not and so I'm posting
a link here:
http://consumerproductlaw.com/lawyer/2016/01/15/CPSC/Here-Comes-The-Consumer
-Product-Safety-Robot_bl23096.htm
It's not actually a "robot" but is a piece of free s/w to, as it states
Hello Everyone,
We are currently looking for Electrical Safety Expert Consultants to establish
Power Innovation and Research Center in Munich Germany.
You are an experienced electrical safety expert with worldwide vision, with
excellent understanding of safety standard VDE0100, IEC60364, IEC/EN
Safety testing of powered and active loudspeakers
Due to a delay while my web site hosting (and many others) was
transferred to a different ISP, a PDF on the above subject is now
available there. www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When
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Attachments
Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
, 2015 at 10:30 AMSubject: Re: [PSES] D of C and product safety warnings and caution markingsHas anyone been asked to provide a Translation of their DoC in some other language during the Shipping process such as by Customs? We have not, so far, and I hope English continues to be ok.The only time we
site by a 3rd party test authority, who seems to make
issues over paperwork more than the safety of the product itself.
The Other Brian
-Original Message-
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 5:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject
the safety of the product
itself.
Of course, it's much easier to check the paperwork than the safety. They
say that if you can't get the simple (?) paperwork right, what chance is
there that you got the safety right? There is some justification for
this.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best
the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Santa Clara Ron. Hope all is well, going to play some
golf in you old neighborhood this weekend.
mac
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 2:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] D of C and product safety
this email immediately.
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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;
emc-p...@ieee.orgGT;
All emc-pstc postings are archived
is NOT physically in the shipping box, how does the
country customs inspector know if we meet the required EU LVD requirements?
Thanks
Ron Baugh
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
3:43 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] D of C and product safety warnings and caution markings
I have a question that has been presented to me for several years now and I
need this groups help.
When we ship our products to the end user and our products meets all of the LVD
.
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on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
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-1994
scottald...@google.com
-
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www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion
instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
In message 005401d06c08$335793a0$9a06bae0$@cox.net, dated Tue, 31 Mar 2015,
Ed Price edpr...@cox.net writes:
Yet it must be noted that Mr. Coyote never brought suit against the
Acme Company, despite a long history on non
on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
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, Essex UK
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Hi Ken:
Oh, boy. EMC and safety requirements are a cost
without a sale. That is what a VP of marketing
told me. For the most part, management would
prefer to keep the costs at a minimum.
EMC, ROHS, and safety requirements are rules that
the products must comply with in order
on selling equipment outside a
country?s own borders.
Not what you want (it may be difficult to find such material for
safety), but maybe you can use it:
The costs of meeting the technical requirements and testing for
compliance are the fee for entering the market, not RD costs.
--
OOO - Own
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, national local government), industrial organizations for
the product type and finally contractual agreements. A possible fourth
source is where consumers have unstated expectations of product safety,
performance and reliability.
Instead of presenting the topic of regulatory compliance as another
: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
A couple of resources that might be helpful:
First, a very high level overview
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm4_e.htm#TRS from
the WTO.
Second, an article
http://incompliancemag.com/article
oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Reply-To: Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:31:27 +
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Conversation: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion
list. To post
...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
In message
!!AAAYAEGjmYsMtGZAuvo7rFLQ++figAAAEGclIn6IPpdMlDLZ1
mailto:GnjPVEBAA==@blueyonder.co.uk
22:54
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
In message
!!AAAYAEGjmYsMtGZAuvo7rFLQ++figAAAEGclIn6IPpdMlDLZ1
mailto:GnjPVEBAA==@blueyonder.co.uk
GnjPVEBAA==@blueyonder.co.uk, dated
] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
There appear to be some serious attitude cases subscribed to this forum. I
am truly looking for primer type info for the non-engineer. Not trying to
persuade recalcitrant mangers, just trying to round up some basic info
Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 31 March 2015 22:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
I'm not making a persuasive pitch. I was asked to provide primer type
material
: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: 31 March 2015 21:31
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Mr. Nute,
As this is probably for management, respectfully suggest that the premier
in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Ken
In one respect you are quite right, but you still really do have to
understand the minds of the people you need to convince/convert, and thus
you need to understand and rationalise how you will present those primers
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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) 650-5261
--
*From: *Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org
*Reply-To: *ri...@ieee.org
*Date: *Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:57:08 -0700
*To: *'Ken Javor' ken.ja...@emccompliance.com,
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject: *RE: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements
.
Brian
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Hi Ken:
Oh, boy. EMC and safety requirements are a cost without a sale
instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
There appear to be some serious attitude cases subscribed to this forum. I am
truly looking for primer type info for the non-engineer. Not trying to persuade
recalcitrant mangers, just trying to round up some basic info
@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Hi Ken:
Oh, boy. EMC and safety requirements are a cost without a sale. That is
what a VP of marketing told me. For the most part, management would prefer
to keep the costs at a minimum
Chula Vista, CA USA
-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 1:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Basic instruction in EMC and safety requirements for the
non-professional
Mr. Nute
Personally, I would take a conservative approach where you provide some
basic safety information (whatever the high flyers for your product are)
and information on how to access the rest of the safety info (and perhaps a
backup such as a phone number or mail address in case the website goes down
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