Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[dave engvall]

EDM of one sort or another comes up every few years. Pete 
Grundemann(sp?) put one together. His demo was to edm threads in a file.
tomp ... now in Thailand has a lot of experience in edm. 
tjtr33...atgmailcom
Someone brought a non-working commercial wire edm to Galesburg and 
almost had it working at the end of the week. This was a stepper driven 
unit made by Bridgeport but had a different label. My memory seems to be 
fading
I worked a little bit at getting something going but other pressures out 
voted the project. Still have a bunch of graphite and electrolyte around 
here someplace.


Dave

On 2/1/21 8:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 01/31/2021 07:22 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
I found some of the earlier articles in Home Shop Machinist Issue's 
May/June 1995 and September/October 1995.   I do not have part 2 
published in July/August 1995.


However, in the 3rd part Robert Langlois describes the stepper motor 
operation in conjunction with the capacitor voltage.  His front panel 
has switches allowing combinations of 50uFd, 100uFd, 200uFd and 
400uFd in parallel.
Note that Robert Langlois is the home shop expert on WIRE EDM, which 
is a bit different from
sinker EDM, as the wire is moved fairly rapidly past the cut.  So, the 
spark generator setup is

quite different.

I met him at a couple NAMES shows in the late 1990's.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Jon Elson]

On 01/31/2021 07:22 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I found some of the earlier articles in Home Shop Machinist Issue's May/June 
1995 and September/October 1995.   I do not have part 2 published in 
July/August 1995.

However, in the 3rd part Robert Langlois describes the stepper motor operation 
in conjunction with the capacitor voltage.  His front panel has switches 
allowing combinations of 50uFd, 100uFd, 200uFd and 400uFd in parallel.
Note that Robert Langlois is the home shop expert on WIRE 
EDM, which is a bit different from
sinker EDM, as the wire is moved fairly rapidly past the 
cut.  So, the spark generator setup is

quite different.

I met him at a couple NAMES shows in the late 1990's.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Gerrit Visser]

Thank you Thomas, filed your excellent info for my project.

Just finishing up a shop built cnc gantry machine (uses Pathpilot), then
onto the next project which I think will be a WEDM machine.

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: Thomas J Powderly [mailto:tjt...@gmail.com] 
Sent: February 1, 2021 12:57 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

Hi Gerrit

the difference between senkung and draht erodien generator

is the pulse width

in wedm 1-10uS is the entire spectrum

in sink edm 1-3000uS is the spectrum

in any edm that uses the very sort pulse,

it is important that the current shut-off be complete and very fast ( all
inductanc ein system must be watched)

if you can turn the power OFF very very quickly, you will increase the metal
removal a LOT.

the reason is

the metal removel is the expulsion of a tiny crate pool of molten material

if the thermal change ( from current supplied an heating the pool)

to the time hwne current is removed and the thermal mass of the surrounding
environment ( oil water gas )

that makes for a more IMplosive force on the hot plasma bubble channel over
the pool.

The quickness of the bubble collapse cause more of the puddle to be ejected

a slower deflating lets most of the melted material to cool back on the
surface

look for Dr. Schumakers description from AGie

i cant find it now but it was an excellent presentation of how a spark
removes material

the 9 or so pictures are a whole edm education

but try this instead

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/34635871.pdf

best of luck with the wedm

(btw it will be a good hole drill spark generaor if it works for wed, just
needs up to 100uS max on time )

tomp

On 2/1/21 12:53 AM, Gerrit Visser wrote:
> Another source of information about pulse generator design: 
> https://langfordw.pages.cba.mit.edu/desktopWEDM/electronics/
>
> https://www.cnc.info.pl/drazenie-metoda-domowa-moje-proby-t11692-20.ht
> ml (Google translate helps here:-))
>
> Again, my focus is on wire EDM but there must be similarities
>
> Gerrit
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 at 09:42, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:

(Snip the other stuff, all noted)

> a use of adaptive feed wull never apprach the needed jittery advance of
> edm, adaptive feed never reacts negatively,

That is no longer the case. LinuxCNC now supports negative adaptive
feed, introduced specifically for EDM use.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[John Dammeyer]

I found some of the earlier articles in Home Shop Machinist Issue's May/June 
1995 and September/October 1995.   I do not have part 2 published in 
July/August 1995.

However, in the 3rd part Robert Langlois describes the stepper motor operation 
in conjunction with the capacitor voltage.  His front panel has switches 
allowing combinations of 50uFd, 100uFd, 200uFd and 400uFd in parallel.

Essentially he moves the stepper motor down (electrode) if the voltage rises 
above a pot set reference voltage and moves it up if below a second pot set 
reference voltage.  It doesn't move the motor if the voltage is between these 
two set points.

The voltage on the capacitors ranges between 0V and 100V which is divided by 20 
for a 0V to 5V value compared to the Pot values.

John Dammeyer

He also references 
Model Engineer 1976 July, August, November and 1981 October.
Strictly I.C.  1993 Aug/sept, Oct/Nov, 93-94/Dec/Jan., 94 Feb/Mar, 95 Feb/Mar 
(letters)
Home Shop Machinist 91 Jan/Feb, 91 Jul/Aug, 92 May/Jun, 94 May/Jun



> -Original Message-
> From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-31-21 11:51 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer 
> Sent: January 31, 2021 2:35 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Rats.  I'm missing #169 for some reason.
> 
> The series I was thinking about was in issues #57..#60 and with addendums in
> #64 and #68.  The #68 issue discussed dielectrics safe for the home workshop
> and the liquid mentioned may still be available in the UK.
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gerrit Visser [mailto:gerr...@psgv.ca]
> > Sent: January-31-21 11:06 AM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> >
> > Issue 168, Oct 2010 is the first installment
> >
> > Gerrit
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: January 31, 2021 1:31 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> >
> > Andy,
> > Check out this page:
> > http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html
> >
> > Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.
> > I'll go through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty sure I
> had all 4.  An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.
> >
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Thomas J Powderly]

Hi Gerrit

the difference between senkung and draht erodien generator

is the pulse width

in wedm 1-10uS is the entire spectrum

in sink edm 1-3000uS is the spectrum

in any edm that uses the very sort pulse,

it is important that the current shut-off be complete and very fast ( 
all inductanc ein system must be watched)


if you can turn the power OFF very very quickly, you will increase the 
metal removal a LOT.


the reason is

the metal removel is the expulsion of a tiny crate pool of molten material

if the thermal change ( from current supplied an heating the pool)

to the time hwne current is removed and the thermal mass of the 
surrounding environment ( oil water gas )


that makes for a more IMplosive force on the hot plasma bubble channel 
over the pool.


The quickness of the bubble collapse cause more of the puddle to be ejected

a slower deflating lets most of the melted material to cool back on the 
surface


look for Dr. Schumakers description from AGie

i cant find it now but it was an excellent presentation of how a spark 
removes material


the 9 or so pictures are a whole edm education

but try this instead

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/34635871.pdf

best of luck with the wedm

(btw it will be a good hole drill spark generaor if it works for wed, 
just needs up to 100uS max on time )


tomp

On 2/1/21 12:53 AM, Gerrit Visser wrote:

Another source of information about pulse generator design: 
https://langfordw.pages.cba.mit.edu/desktopWEDM/electronics/

https://www.cnc.info.pl/drazenie-metoda-domowa-moje-proby-t11692-20.html 
(Google translate helps here:-))

Again, my focus is on wire EDM but there must be similarities

Gerrit





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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Thomas J Powderly]

Hi Andy

if your path is a straight line
dont use linuxcnc , just hal

use steppers to advance
use an opamp window comparator
with a too high and a too low threshold

when your measured voltage is too high advance 1 step
else dont move, just wait
if too low, turn off the power , maybe retract
no linuxcnc needed
it cuts as fast as it can automatically


in most edm (any electrode material to steel workpiece ) the optimal gap 
voltage is near 30V=

its almost 2 volts lower when roughing
and 2 volts higher when finishing


The discharge voltage Ua) varies with 'paarung' the pairing of material, 
so for carbon wheel to wolfram, its will be even less,

i have seen stable cutting al low as 18V ( do not try to go lower )
a transistorized or FET generator is way better for MMR and wear.

to cut carbidem use a carbon of copper-graphite or copper tungsten wheel

edming carbide is mostly removing the binder.

using parrafinics is better than water but requres filtering and pumps
the nature of edm grinding is the 'best' flushing in all edm realms ( 
sink, orbiting, wire, hole drill )
because the tool to workpiece junction is continuosly new (like wedm, 
but free on each side, unlike wedm )

so a bath of 'white spirits' may be enough

on AGie edm-grinders ( used mostly by sewing machine companies ) they 
used thin ( low -visc) edm oil


there is no such thing as edm oil, its merely a layer in the cracker 
tower that is removed and labeled (kerosene or edm fluid or axle grease)

get a copy of the OEL-HELD book on edm fluids

a higher supply voltge ( 80-100V=) makes it easier (and more accurate) 
for a comparator to decide wether to adance , hold still, or retract.


a use of adaptive feed wull never apprach the needed jittery advance of 
edm, adaptive feed never reacts negatively, it can only reacts 'less-ly'

the motion techniques for mills is not the motion for edm.

I did a lot of work for Union Special on such machines 
http://www.unionspecial.com/


are you using a lathe spindle as the edm spindle?

the plans that Garret Visser link to at MIT are a good idea
previous 'the garden of edm' was good but remains unfinished
https://cscott.net/Projects/FabClass/final/edesign1.html

oh, splash/spray guards are neccesary, high rpm is not


hth
I'm kneedeep in rpi-gpio driver here . is **cp same as [] ??

hahaha i have to write a lot of test code to see how the original code 
worked.

best o luck

tomp


On 1/31/21 8:28 PM, andy pugh wrote:
I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an 
EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools 
using CNC-turned profiles. At the moment I am using a cobbled-together 
XY table with a couple of STMBL drives. One of the STMBL analogue 
inputs is used to measure the current through the gap. (ie using the 
voltage across the resistor that a capacitor is charged through). Then 
a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting the 
adaptive feed pin. I think that it shows promise, but only partly 
works. I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect 
that this is too high on both counts. I am working at 40V and it seems 
that the tool welds to the work too readily. I suspect that I would 
get different results if I controlled to the gap voltage, rather than 
charging resistor voltage. And probably better still with some sort of 
signal processing on that voltage. What combination of R, C and V 
would be typical for a servo-controlled eroder? I imagine it might be 
different to a "doorbell" style one. Current set up: 
https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[ken.strauss]

Problem solved.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: January 31, 2021 2:35 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

Rats.  I'm missing #169 for some reason.  

The series I was thinking about was in issues #57..#60 and with addendums in
#64 and #68.  The #68 issue discussed dielectrics safe for the home workshop
and the liquid mentioned may still be available in the UK.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: Gerrit Visser [mailto:gerr...@psgv.ca]
> Sent: January-31-21 11:06 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Issue 168, Oct 2010 is the first installment
> 
> Gerrit
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: January 31, 2021 1:31 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Andy,
> Check out this page:
> http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html
> 
> Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.  
> I'll go through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty sure I
had all 4.  An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Dave Matthews]

Issues 1 - 163 might be available on some of the darker areas of the
internet if you can't find them legally.  A quick check at the Jolly Roger
one lists them.

Dave

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 2:36 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Rats.  I'm missing #169 for some reason.
>
> The series I was thinking about was in issues #57..#60 and with addendums
> in #64 and #68.  The #68 issue discussed dielectrics safe for the home
> workshop and the liquid mentioned may still be available in the UK.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gerrit Visser [mailto:gerr...@psgv.ca]
> > Sent: January-31-21 11:06 AM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> >
> > Issue 168, Oct 2010 is the first installment
> >
> > Gerrit
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: January 31, 2021 1:31 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> >
> > Andy,
> > Check out this page:
> > http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html
> >
> > Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.
> I'll go through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty
> > sure I had all 4.  An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.
> >
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[John Dammeyer]

Rats.  I'm missing #169 for some reason.  

The series I was thinking about was in issues #57..#60 and with addendums in 
#64 and #68.  The #68 issue discussed dielectrics safe for the home workshop 
and the liquid mentioned may still be available in the UK.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: Gerrit Visser [mailto:gerr...@psgv.ca]
> Sent: January-31-21 11:06 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Issue 168, Oct 2010 is the first installment
> 
> Gerrit
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: January 31, 2021 1:31 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> Andy,
> Check out this page:
> http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html
> 
> Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.  I'll go 
> through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty
> sure I had all 4.  An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Gerrit Visser]

Issue 168, Oct 2010 is the first installment

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com] 
Sent: January 31, 2021 1:31 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

Andy,
Check out this page:
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html

Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.  I'll go 
through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty sure I had all 4.  
An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.

John Dammeyer





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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[John Dammeyer]

HI Andy,
There's also this.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-edm-discussion/
Many links are broken though.  And the Yahoo group on EDM is gone and it 
doesn't look like it was migrated to groups.io.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-31-21 5:28 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
> EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
> using CNC-turned profiles.
> 
> At the moment I am using a cobbled-together XY table with a couple of
> STMBL drives.
> One of the STMBL analogue inputs is used to measure the current
> through the gap. (ie using the voltage across the resistor that a
> capacitor is charged through).
> Then a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting
> the adaptive feed pin.
> 
> I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.
> 
> I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
> is too high on both counts.
> I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too readily.
> 
> I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
> gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
> better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.
> 
> What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
> eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.
> 
> Current set up: https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[John Dammeyer]

Andy,
Check out this page:
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html

Also Model Engineer's workshop had a 4 part series on building one.  I'll go 
through my archives and see if I can find them.  I'm pretty sure I had all 4.  
An online search doesn't pinpoint which issues.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-31-21 5:28 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch
> 
> I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
> EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
> using CNC-turned profiles.
> 
> At the moment I am using a cobbled-together XY table with a couple of
> STMBL drives.
> One of the STMBL analogue inputs is used to measure the current
> through the gap. (ie using the voltage across the resistor that a
> capacitor is charged through).
> Then a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting
> the adaptive feed pin.
> 
> I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.
> 
> I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
> is too high on both counts.
> I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too readily.
> 
> I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
> gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
> better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.
> 
> What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
> eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.
> 
> Current set up: https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Gerrit Visser]

Another source of information about pulse generator design: 
https://langfordw.pages.cba.mit.edu/desktopWEDM/electronics/ 

https://www.cnc.info.pl/drazenie-metoda-domowa-moje-proby-t11692-20.html 
(Google translate helps here:-))

Again, my focus is on wire EDM but there must be similarities 

Gerrit





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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Gerrit Visser]

There might be some gems in this video? I have an interest (presently on hold) 
to make a wire edm so have been collecting information etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IWWa0xCd04=9s

There is also a Polish forum where someone describes their power supply as well 
as details on how they use LinuxCNC to run a wire edm. There might be 
similarities to what you are looking for.

Gerrit




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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 at 16:06, Jon Elson  wrote:

> I made a simple EDM for tap burning type jobs a long time
> ago.  It used something like 36 V DC, 30 Ohm resistor and a
> selection of oil-paper capacitors of 1, 2, 4 and 6 uF or
> so.

A common thread here seems to be that my 1000uF electrolytic is the
wrong choice.

> Ben Fleming's pulse EDM, on the other hand is quite fast.
> Flushing of the debris is a key requirement.  Also, his
> pulser recovers quite quickly, and so fires several thousand
> discharges per second.

Lots of people seem willing to sell me a book with their secret sauce in it.

As someone who gives all my ideas away for free, this goes against the grain.

> What are you using for dielectric?

I tried tap water, but just set up steady-state electrolysis (and
couldn't find an easy way to restrain the workpiece)
So initial testing was done in air.

The only commercial EDM I ever used used what we call paraffin (and
the US calls Kerosene)  as the dielectric. It wasn't something that I
would want in my spare bedroom. Both due to the smell and the tendency
to occasionally combust in a very, very, smoky way.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Jon Elson]

On 01/31/2021 07:28 AM, andy pugh wrote:

I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
using CNC-turned profiles.


A fancy commercial (and patented) EDM system was described 
by a tech who worked on them.
They had a 300V supply that was capable of producing a few 
mA.  They had a lower voltage supply capable of tens of mA, 
90 V.  Then, they had a 12 V supply capable of delivering 
tens of A.  These were all or'ed together with diodes and 
controlled by a switch transistor.
After recovering from a discharge, the transistor was turned 
on, the higher voltage caused ionization of the dielectric, 
then the middle voltage supply created a discharge, and then 
the 12 V supply delivered the burning spark.  After an 
adjustable time, the discharge was cut off, and the cycle 
repeats.  I've attached a usenet discussion of that.


Also, I've attached a PDF of another EDM pulse controller 
from the web, no idea if it works.


Jon
Subject:
Re: building an edm
From:
"Ed Huntress" 
Date:
Mon, 26 May 2003 17:57:36 GMT
Newsgroups:
rec.crafts.metalworking

"steamer"  wrote in message
news:F6rAa.16980$jx2.1052...@typhoon.sonic.net...

> Spehro Pefhany  wrote:
> : control stuff? I've done it with a paper towel, a stencil and a bench
> : supply.
> --Gotta know: what voltage, amperage did it take??


A lot of different ones.

Here's the basic concept of Sodick's power supply ca. 1980. It was designed
to get around the patents of Charmille's Robofil power supply, which used a
more complex (and slightly more effective) approach.

The simplest, standard circuit (there were about four separate ones, IIRC,
for different cutting conditions) was actually three power supplies in
parallel. The first was a high-voltage, high-impedance circuit intended to
polarize a plasma channel. It was about 300 V, but I don't remember the
impedance.

In parallel to that was a 90 V, medium-impedance circuit that initiated the
plasma and got some current flowing.

In parallel to that was a high-amperage circuit that could deliver something
like 50 average amps, at around 10 - 12 volts.

The first circuit prepared the way for the second, and the second for the
third. When the third circuit fired, the plasma channel opened up and
carried an extremely dense current, which melts the little glob of metal
that each spark produces.

The sequence was repeated at about 4 kHz. At the end of each spark, the
circuit has to shut the current flow down, HARD, in order to prevent a
self-perpetuating arc. Once an arc starts, current will flow even from the
high-impedance circuits, and the workpiece will develop a weld spot and be
wrecked.

All of this has to occur with a minimum of inductive reaction. If that
sounds easy, remember that you have peak amperages of around 500 A flowing
during the discharge, if you're running at a 10% duty cycle (roughly average
in those days). Current density within the plasma channel is immense and
uncontrolled reactions ring like a bell.

Controlling the initiation of each spark is a mean-voltage sensing circuit
and a current-sensing circuit that actuates the servo and that overrides the
shut-off circuitry to prevent contact-welding. If you get contact, the
electrode often will weld to the work and blow the power supply to hell.

This is an extremely simple system by today's standards, although it was
very effective on the ordinary run of work, with ordinary projected-area
EDMing. When you have pointy electrode projections or when you're trying to
do contouring and have minute projected areas, this circuit slows down to a
crawl. Still, it's many times faster than an RC circuit under the same
conditions.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)





edm.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Jon Elson]

On 01/31/2021 07:28 AM, andy pugh wrote:

I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
using CNC-turned profiles.



I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.

I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
is too high on both counts.
I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too readily.

I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.

What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.

There are a few different systems for EDM.  Ben Fleming (who 
I met at a couple CNC meetings) has a line of self-published 
books out on EDM.  He has done LOTS of work with EDM, and is 
an expert.


I made a simple EDM for tap burning type jobs a long time 
ago.  It used something like 36 V DC, 30 Ohm resistor and a 
selection of oil-paper capacitors of 1, 2, 4 and 6 uF or 
so.  It was glacially slow.

See http://pico-systems.com/edm.html


Ben Fleming's pulse EDM, on the other hand is quite fast.  
Flushing of the debris is a key requirement.  Also, his 
pulser recovers quite quickly, and so fires several thousand 
discharges per second.


What are you using for dielectric?

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 31 January 2021 08:28:13 andy pugh wrote:

> I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
> EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
> using CNC-turned profiles.
>
> At the moment I am using a cobbled-together XY table with a couple of
> STMBL drives.
> One of the STMBL analogue inputs is used to measure the current
> through the gap. (ie using the voltage across the resistor that a
> capacitor is charged through).
> Then a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting
> the adaptive feed pin.
>
> I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.
>
> I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
> is too high on both counts.
> I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too
> readily.
>
I too have been known to do some EDM, with 50 ohms and a 2 to 10 uf 
capacitor, paper, oil filled or mylar. Electrolytics have too high an 
ESR to make a good storage cap though, damping the discharge rate and 
destroying the sparks explosive effects, hence likely your welding 
problem.

You also need a liquid medium in the gap, preferably being circulated 
somehow in order to flush away the debris which will eventually get so 
contaminated it will short out the gap.

I've cut the slots to make a coupling socket to fit the end of a small 
ball screw, by boring a piece of unhardened A2 to serve as a socket to 
insert the screw into. I also made a tapered thread at 50 tpi on the 
outside and used the same tapering technique on both the socket and 
matching nut's, doing all that machining before cutting the socket walls 
into petals so the nut, as its drawn up tight on the taper, is squeezing 
the petals and with a bit of green loctite, has been holding and driving 
the X screw in my 11x54 Sheldon for about 4 years now. This 3/4" 
diameter extension shaft locked onto the end of the 8mm ball screw and 
spinning in Torrington needles and roller washers is spun from the front 
end by a 3 phase, 2NM stepper servo drive mounted on  a slider for belt 
tension, 20 teeth on the motor, 40 on this shaft projecting out thru the 
new apron plate bolted to the front face of the carriage, reusing the 
original hand drive crank for the drive bushing in the face of the 
carriage. I used a 2NM here because it was short enough to clear the 
bed. I use the 3NM version on the much bigger Z screw. Machine moves a 
lot like Casper the ghost now.

I have also used EDM to clear broken taps, without damaging the threads 
the tap cut, quite a few times, but because that's a blind hole, the 
dielectric fluid doesn't clear the debris well so you do a lot of 
cleaning and adding new fluid.

I've had about as good a result using distilled water (its a good 
insulator and cuts as clean as using K2, and its a heck of a lot 
cheaper. To cut the petals, I made an arbor and a 3" brass disk from 32 
thou brass. And spun it at about 200 revs in my micromill which has 
since died. Connected one wire to the workpiece, the other was wrapped 
around the arbor so the currant pulse did not have to go the the spindle 
bearings as that will damage those bearings. with 2+ inches of distilled 
in a plastic tub, and at about a step a second to cut each of the 1" 
deep slots. I made 3 because the shaft was laying on the flat of one of 
the nuts installed on the shaft. EDM, unlike turning, leaves no burrs, 
beautiful cuts. About 2 hours of me standing there with a finger on the 
x jog key for all 3 slots. There is a preferred polarty, but I'd have to 
look it up again now.

> I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
> gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
> better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.
>
> What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
> eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.
>
> Current set up: https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[Peter Blodow]

Andy,
I have been experimenting with EDM long time ago, say 25 years. I used a 
simple RC-circuit together with a "soft" transformer (ca.1.5 mm air gap) 
in order to forgive for the shorts and save fuses. All was mounted on my 
drill press. I gave up when I realized that without a controlled 
transistor (Lazarenko-)generator I would not get reasonable results. It 
seemed to me that developing such a generator would exceed the 
experimental effort I was willing to make, as there was no real 
application in sight. I wasn't even thinking of EMC table motion control 
at that time.


I still remember that I was using a much larger capacitor, even up to 1 
F and 60 Volts from an old IBM Printer supply I happened to have at 
hand. With an uncontrolled, deliberate discharge of this capacitor, 
about a 5-10 mm length of 10 mm² shorting cable disapeared at once, 
producing black metal vapor. Therfore, there was a second resistor (way 
below 1 Ohm) between the capacitor and the electrode to limit the short 
current and avoid sticking.

And boy, that was a messy and noisy affair!
I suppose you have read his (and other links): 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining

Good luck!
Peter

Am 31.01.2021 um 14:28 schrieb andy pugh:

I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
using CNC-turned profiles.

At the moment I am using a cobbled-together XY table with a couple of
STMBL drives.
One of the STMBL analogue inputs is used to measure the current
through the gap. (ie using the voltage across the resistor that a
capacitor is charged through).
Then a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting
the adaptive feed pin.

I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.

I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
is too high on both counts.
I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too readily.

I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.

What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.

Current set up: https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A





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[Emc-users] EDM from scratch

[andy pugh]

I have started to play around with EDM. The intention is to make an
EDM "grinder" to profile tool steel and possibly carbide cutting tools
using CNC-turned profiles.

At the moment I am using a cobbled-together XY table with a couple of
STMBL drives.
One of the STMBL analogue inputs is used to measure the current
through the gap. (ie using the voltage across the resistor that a
capacitor is charged through).
Then a PID controller tries to achieve a target current by adjusting
the adaptive feed pin.

I think that it shows promise, but only partly works.

I am using a 50R resistor and a 1000uF capacitor. I suspect that this
is too high on both counts.
I am working at 40V and it seems that the tool welds to the work too readily.

I suspect that I would get different results if I controlled to the
gap voltage, rather than charging resistor voltage. And probably
better still with some sort of signal processing on that voltage.

What combination of R, C and V would be typical for a servo-controlled
eroder? I imagine it might be different to a "doorbell" style one.

Current set up: https://youtu.be/nxpmEFnmK-A

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 August 2019 20:51:56 Gene Heskett wrote:

>
> If you can see why I'm only seeing a 90 degree arc in the backplot,
> teach me what is wrong.

Wrong K. Its running, but very very slowly. About .5 ipm  And from the 
looks of the carbide tool I'm using for electrode, its going away faster 
than the steel is.  So from the looks of it, I've gone up the hill to 
the shop building and picked my container of busted carbide to use for 
electrodes before I done.

And of course Murphy was watching carefully. My EDM psu died, transformer 
I think but its never been hot!  So I rounded up a 200 watt or so 
toroid, and the only other paper in a can capacitor I had, but cheap 
tests everything gismo says its ESR is somewhere in the 30 ohms range, 
downright sucky, and about 13 u-f.  So now I have a 70 volt open circuit 
supply and it seems to be making a decent fire. But the carbide is going 
away faster than that steel. I'm down .034" but the chord of the burn is 
just barely a quarter inch long.

At this point, I'm wondering if its worth it to stop, and see if I can 
use the THC module as a feed override, letting it run likity s--t until 
the average voltage is below 60, indicating the fire has started, in 
which case cut the feed override to about 5% while its burning, but run 
it at 25 ipm when its not.  That would cut the runtime quite a bit.

Ideas, as in has anyone done this?

Thanks Andy, all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 August 2019 13:01:25 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 16:47, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> Did that got g3 error, usual recipe, converted it back to g17, lcnc
>
> > bought it but back plot shows the arc as a straight line???
>
That turned out to be a missing F in the G2/3 lines.  So I have it 
working, sortof. arcgenm18.py is showing a full 180 degree path, but 
when that code is pasted into an ngc file, I am getting only the bottom 
90 degrees in the backplot.

> At this point I would give up and use R-format arcs.

Its getting tempting.

Here is the code:
%
( for a woodruff key, .750 long, .1885 wide, depth about 170 thou )
( from arcgenm18.py, z curve offset starting point for arc )
G20 (use inches)
#<_x_offset>= -0.3750
#<_y_center>=- 0.
#<_x_end>   = -#<_x_offset>
( Z motion from X#<_x_offset )
( G3 X0.3750 Y0. I0.3750 J-0. )
( translate to G18  y becomes z, j becomes k)
( G3 X0.3750 Z0. I0.3750 K-0. )
( comeing back )
( G2 X-0.3750 Y0. I-0.3750 J-0. )
(Translated to G18)
( G2 X-0.3750 Z0. I-0.3750 K-0. )
#<_z_tmp_start> = .3750
(intialize z-tmp)
#<_z_tmp>   = #<_z_tmp_start>
( tool is carbide, .125 diameter dull 2 flute mill )
(key is .1885 wide so)
#<_key_wobble>  = [[ .18855 -.125] / 2.]
#<_z_inc>   =   .001 (burn 1 thou per pass)
S300 m4 (run it backwards)

o50 WHILE [#<_z_tmp> gt 0.000]

G1 F10 x#<_x_offset> y[#<_y_center> + #<_key_wobble>]
G1 F10 z#<_z_tmp>
G18 G2 F1 X0.3750 I0.375000 K#<_z_tmp_start>
G17
G1 F5 y[-#<_key_wobble>]
G18 G3 F1 X-0.3750 I-0.375000 K#<_z_tmp_start>
G17
G1 F.2 y[#<_y_center> - #<_key_wobble>]
#<_z_tmp> = [#<_z_tmp> - #<_z_inc>]

o50 ENDWHILE
G17
m5
g0z5
M2
%

If you can see why I'm only seeing a 90 degree arc in the backplot, teach 
me what is wrong.

Thanks Andy

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 16:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:

Did that got g3 error, usual recipe, converted it back to g17, lcnc
> bought it but back plot shows the arc as a straight line???
>

At this point I would give up and use R-format arcs.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 August 2019 05:52:06 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 01 August 2019 02:59:37 andy pugh wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 04:36, Gene Heskett 
> > wrote:
> >
> > output of arcgenm18.py is assumeing G17. not G18.  So I need to
> >
> > > translate the ijk into what it would be for G18 motion. Is there a
> > > rule of thumb for that?
> >
> > G17 XY IJ
> > G18 XZ IK
> > G19 YZ JK
>
> Thanks Andy. It would be very helpfull if that was added to the docs.
>
> > So to change a G17 arc to a G18 change Y to Z and J to K.
> >
Did that got g3 error, usual recipe, converted it back to g17, lcnc 
bought it but back plot shows the arc as a straight line???

Now clarify please. I have a #<_z_tmp>, which the gcode sets to=.1875
This equals the radius of the arc and also represents the depth as the 
while [#<_z_tmp> gt 0.], meaning that if no erosion on the carbide, 
the final pass, decrementing at -0.0005 per pass, the last pass will be 
a few thou over the depth the key sits in the slot. or it will be 
shallow if the carbide has seriously eroded.  The only y  motions are 
those that move to work the width of the key, ostensively to make the 
groove .1890" wide. those motions take place at the ends of the g2 or g3 
moves so that from above the tool is
  _
 ||
=$64K-Question=
Now in order to maintain the shape of the half circle, while effectively 
moving it to an ever increasing depth and running in G18 anything 
referencing z must have the z_tmp added so the center point decrements 
with z_tmp. Right?


So as I step thru the code, watch it get to setting the starting height, 
but instead of raising z to 0.1875, it stops at about .070" So x and y 
seem to be running  in inches, but z is maybe running in mm but showing 
inches. But thats just a theory at this  point. Different problem but 
this is 2.9 master too... I need to find that too

I noted the shaft was showing a teeny bit of rust from sitting in the 
distilled water over night, and that the blocks I had positioned and 
gooped to prop it into alignment hadn't stuck to the poly tray, so I 
dumped everything and cleaned up the shaft, and now have a 1x2 by 9 
piece of white ash gooped to the bottom of the water tray sitting out in 
the sun so maybe it will stick better. Thick enough the shaft can be 
laid lengthwise w/o the tray pushing on the ends.

So while all that glue is setting, I can work on duff code.
And maybe look around in my junk box for another useable capacitor. This 
sort of pulsing will kill an electrolytic in a short time, not to 
mention it can't deliver the amps to make a destructive spark like an 
oil/paper or mylar can.
 
Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 August 2019 02:59:37 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 04:36, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> output of arcgenm18.py is assumeing G17. not G18.  So I need to
>
> > translate the ijk into what it would be for G18 motion. Is there a
> > rule of thumb for that?
>
> G17 XY IJ
> G18 XZ IK
> G19 YZ JK

Thanks Andy. It would be very helpfull if that was added to the docs.

> So to change a G17 arc to a G18 change Y to Z and J to K.
>
> You won't get a true segment of a cylinder with a cylindrical tool.
> Which was why I suggested a rotating disc that looks like an actual
> Woodruff cutter.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 August 2019 02:59:37 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 04:36, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> output of arcgenm18.py is assumeing G17. not G18.  So I need to
>
> > translate the ijk into what it would be for G18 motion. Is there a
> > rule of thumb for that?
>
> G17 XY IJ
> G18 XZ IK
> G19 YZ JK
>
Thank you.

> So to change a G17 arc to a G18 change Y to Z and J to K.
>
> You won't get a true segment of a cylinder with a cylindrical tool.
> Which was why I suggested a rotating disc that looks like an actual
> Woodruff cutter.

Of no concern, the back of the key has a flat area, something like the 
rear .075"  is removed from a key that would be if a full 3/4" circle, 
such that the key is only .3" deep, not .375". So the flat spot in the 
middle that a cylindrical tool cutting on the end of it while doing a 
180 degree circle's run in G18 mode is actually fitting the key better 
than a regular key cutter. If in cuttable steel useing a key mill, one 
would have to cut straight in to needed depth, then advance the cutter 
lengthwise by at least 3/8" in order to duplicate the shape of the key.

With the lack of working room, and the need to figure out how to keep the 
key from tipping when its entering the groove in the pulley, its a right 
cast iron bitch to fit.  So IF I can locate another capacitor (the guy 
in Bulgaria that has all the soviet surplus is out of pocket till late 
August, caps like this have not been made in any great qty since there 
was a run on them  when it became sick bird to use pcb's over here, 
about 30 years back. It cost the station around $20K to get rid of most 
of what we had by having Westinghouse send a truck to pick it up and 
burn it at nearly 7000F, pcb's are dambed hard to destroy) This now 
failed one was spared the fire by not having a pyranol on its label at 
the time. Modern plastic caps to replace it are $100+ and probably only 
available as 30 yo NOS.

So, since that pulley now has a taperlock, I think I'll just make sure 
its pulled up as well as I can get it, relying on the taperlock to 
freeze it on the shaft. This new shaft, being unworn, fits the hub of 
that pulley with a lot less rattle room, and the twin grub screws can 
probably be adjusted to reduce the runout if I can get a dial to it to 
measure it.

But I need to find something ASAP or the shaft will start rusting sitting 
there in the water...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 04:36, Gene Heskett  wrote:

output of arcgenm18.py is assumeing G17. not G18.  So I need to
> translate the ijk into what it would be for G18 motion. Is there a rule
> of thumb for that?
>

G17 XY IJ
G18 XZ IK
G19 YZ JK

So to change a G17 arc to a G18 change Y to Z and J to K.

You won't get a true segment of a cylinder with a cylindrical tool. Which
was why I suggested a rotating disc that looks like an actual Woodruff
cutter.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 July 2019 23:52:23 TJoseph Powderly wrote:

> you ask for long lasting
> that would be tungsten carbide
> but
> i suggest using easy to manufacture, easy to find, low cost
> because it will wear anyway
>
> so copper, with little lead ( often copper sold will be 'machineable'
> which means lead which means higher wear )
>
> for a key way you should be able to mill machine the electrodes
> and use the largest face ( dont cut with small end of rectangular
> prism , cut with side )
> ( do the hokey pokey - put your big foot outi used to teach the
> operators )
> use LOTS of pecking, just get a sizzle and jump away
>
> you dont have real edm equipment, just a hack so you gotta play safe
>
> and set it up vertical and submerged if possible so the jump opens up
> to a flood of the submerged fluid
> pee down the cut from above and to the side, you want to see the black
> puff out each jump
>
> Negative polarity ( tool neg, work pos ) If you use an r/c pulse
> generator then always negative tool.
> Short ontimes and hi freq ( say 10to50uS on and 200 or more off , 2000
> is good for lash-up )
>
> The exaggerated offtimes aid in letting the dielectric recuperate to
> non conductive state.
> The short cut times ( jump cycle ) aid in poor gap control, you
> actually cut while ' in the zome'
> but your system cant maintain the zone
> So you get efficiency by 'drive by edm', you go thru the zone each
> jump pass and get a little work done.
> You jump away right away and reduce the heat build up ( because you
> likely crashed into the work and shorted )
>
> you're a scope kinda guy, try this...
> reduce the gap using a resistor divider giving max 5v and watch the
> process when you get more 'chairs' then you are cutting more
> when you flat line, you're crashing
> when its open voltage all the time you're missing
> ( old elox guys look for 'grass' like on a lawn ,
>   there was a scope on all old elox generators,
>   the 'grass' was due to slow scope )
>
> hth
> tomp
>
Got it all hooked up, expected lots of noise because the capacitor was 10 
uf.  Note the /was/. From the symptons, taint no more, so while I am 
getting some fire, its dead silent! So I don't think that cap is a cap 
any more.. Fleabay, & see if I can find another. Big cap, around 64 
cubic inches, only 70 years old.

So I sat down to write a while loop, using Big John's arcgenm18.py. and 
haven't managed to get loadable code yet because I think I need the G18 
plane where y can be left out as the g2 nor g3 moves the y. But the 
output of arcgenm18.py is assumeing G17. not G18.  So I need to 
translate the ijk into what it would be for G18 motion. Is there a rule 
of thumb for that?

> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Like Jon said on the sheldon list. woodruff keys cut into a case
> > hardened shaft are a bear. Carbide makes a mark, for about 5
> > seconds.
> >
> > So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.
> >
> > Because the electrode will go away too, what makes the longest
> > lasting electrode material?
> >
> > And which polarity, if it makes a difference?
> >
> > Thanks all;
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 31 July 2019 09:39:22 andy pugh wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:29, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> Carbide was mentioned, I might even see how long this now dull tool
> would
>
> > work. Running backwards so the spiral is carrying fresh water down
> > to the fire on the bottom face?  Lots of things to try. :)
>
> Do you really mean "Woodruff" here?

Yes, these are not square keys. The rear face is a curve of about a 7/8" 
diameter washer, so the slots I'll be digging are only perhaps 3/4" 
long. One is for the 4 sheve stepped size pulley on the right end, 
driven by an identical pulley on the end of the motor countershaft 
faceing the other way, making about a 6/1 change in spindle speeds by 
loosening a toggle and moving the belt from groove to groove. And the 
2nd one is to lock the twin belt pulley that drives the spindle although 
I may leave it out now that it has a taperlocked hub.  They don't slip. 
Or at least I've never had one slip in 50 some years with up to 15 hp 
motors driving them.  And, because of working space once the taperlock 
insert is on the shaft, its a cast iron bitch to get in and out. So 
leaving it out and depending on the well tightened hub to hold it is not 
going to keep me up nights worrying about it. So the only key I'll cut 
is the one for the 4 step pulley.

I found a plastic pan but its a hair short, requiring the shaft to lay at 
an angle, so I painted the shaft with a narrow strip of goop, and its 
getting about an hours cure time gluing it to the bottom of the pan. In 
the meantime I've gently clamped the ends of the pan, with some wood 
blocks to discourage shaft movement, the dialed it so center drift is 
under a thou for a 6 inch lengthwise move.

That ought to be close enough axial alignment for the girls I go with.  
Then  next is hit the shop building up the hill and retrieve my EDM psu 
and stick it to whatever is handy and allows short leads.  Then sit down 
and write some code.  With luck. I might be making noise yet today.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:29, Gene Heskett  wrote:

Carbide was mentioned, I might even see how long this now dull tool would
> work. Running backwards so the spiral is carrying fresh water down to
> the fire on the bottom face?  Lots of things to try. :)
>

Do you really mean "Woodruff" here?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 31 July 2019 05:10:08 Andy Pugh wrote:

> > On 31 Jul 2019, at 04:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.
>
> A rotating disc electrode would seem to be a natural for EDMing a
> Woodruff slot.
>
Sourceing a piece of brass that thickness? Probably should have water 
carrying slots cut in the rim. Would probably have to be made. However, 
before I start, I am going shopping in the housewares department to see 
if I can find a bread pan or some such long enough this 10" shaft can be 
laid in it, and then covered with distilled water. Much easier than 
trying to seal both ends of a medicine bottle.  That should be enough 
water to do it in one pass.

That water I have several gallons of for the moisturizer bubbler my 
ladies oxygen generator runs the gas thru on its way to her. As long as 
its propped not to roll with the tables motions, it should just work and 
I could just step and repeat for both keys.

Thats 1566 steel, I wonder how far in I'd have to EDM, before I could 
switch to a regular carbide bit under power to finish the job precisely. 
IOW, how deep does the 60C case hardening go?

Carbide was mentioned, I might even see how long this now dull tool would 
work. Running backwards so the spiral is carrying fresh water down to 
the fire on the bottom face?  Lots of things to try. :)

But first find a pan. And have the pharmacy get refill auth for the 
metroprolol, the heart pill. Thats what they put me on after the 
pacemaker install.  That and rat poison for blood thinner. They said I 
could stop it, but I'm not bleeding worth a toot /with/ it when I nick a 
hand, so stopping it could easily lead to another pulmonary embolism. 
Thats a hell of a way to die, been there, done that, I am one of the 
less than 2% that survived the first one.

Thanks Andy
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 31 Jul 2019, at 04:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.

A rotating disc electrode would seem to be a natural for EDMing a Woodruff 
slot. 



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 July 2019 23:52:23 TJoseph Powderly wrote:

> > So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.

> you ask for long lasting
> that would be tungsten carbide
> but
> i suggest using easy to manufacture, easy to find, low cost
> because it will wear anyway
>
> so copper, with little lead ( often copper sold will be 'machineable'
> which means lead which means higher wear )
>
> for a key way you should be able to mill machine the electrodes
> and use the largest face ( dont cut with small end of rectangular
> prism , cut with side )
> ( do the hokey pokey - put your big foot outi used to teach the
> operators )
> use LOTS of pecking, just get a sizzle and jump away
>
> you dont have real edm equipment, just a hack so you gotta play safe
>
Power supply is homemade, average voltage OC is around 40, 10 uf paper 
cap, hundred ohm 100 watt current limiter. Noisy is an understatement. 
probably does one bang per half cycle of line voltage when its cutting 
good.

> and set it up vertical and submerged if possible so the jump opens up
> to a flood of the submerged fluid pee down the cut from above and to 
the side, you want to see the black
> puff out each jump

With a wobbling, rotating 12 or 14 ga copper wire to stir the water, 
getting brushed on a file during the gcode motion to keep the end sharp, 
and moving lengthwise down one side of the slot. offsetting to the other 
side of the slot for the trip back.  Won't be very fast, but my back 
could use some rest before I tackle the re-assembly anyway. 
>
> Negative polarity ( tool neg, work pos ) If you use an r/c pulse
> generator then always negative tool.
> Short ontimes and hi freq ( say 10to50uS on and 200 or more off , 2000
> is good for lash-up )
>
> The exaggerated offtimes aid in letting the dielectric recuperate to
> non conductive state.
> The short cut times ( jump cycle ) aid in poor gap control, you
> actually cut while ' in the zome'
> but your system cant maintain the zone
> So you get efficiency by 'drive by edm', you go thru the zone each
> jump pass and get a little work done.
> You jump away right away and reduce the heat build up ( because you
> likely crashed into the work and shorted )
>
> you're a scope kinda guy, try this...
> reduce the gap using a resistor divider giving max 5v and watch the
> process when you get more 'chairs' then you are cutting more
> when you flat line, you're crashing
> when its open voltage all the time you're missing
> ( old elox guys look for 'grass' like on a lawn ,
>   there was a scope on all old elox generators,
>   the 'grass' was due to slow scope )

Chuckle, I haven't had a "slow" scope since '77.

That gives me an idea of how to use an offset module to jiggle the Z, but 
the response time of that big nema 34 motor raises an ugly limit as it 
can't follow an individual discharge. But with the electrode wobbling as 
its spinning its pretty self quenching anyway. I've used a 3" thin 
(0.03125") brass disk at 100 to 300 revs to cut a taperlock into leaves, 
usually 6, to give it room to get crushed by the taper, and I can plow 
right along, making a cut 7/8" deep in around 15 minutes with my jury 
rigged supply.  Thats where I found distilled water worked better than 
k2 for a dielectic fluid. K2 gets dirty faster and has to be changed 
more often.

I'm wondering if it would do any better than just doing the keys back 
profile at a decent feed rate. That, combined with the rotation and 
wobble ought to bring in fresh dielectric

> hth
> tomp

Makes me think about the "what if's", as usual, tomp and thats good, 
thanks.



Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 July 2019 22:52:06 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 07/30/2019 09:14 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Like Jon said on the sheldon list. woodruff keys cut into a case
> > hardened shaft are a bear. Carbide makes a mark, for about 5
> > seconds.
> >
> > So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.
> >
> > Because the electrode will go away too, what makes the longest
> > lasting electrode material?
> >
> > And which polarity, if it makes a difference?
>
> I think you want workpiece positive, and either graphite or
> copper makes a good electrode.
> Unless you do it with a second pass and new electrode, the
> slot is likely to get a taper as the electrode wears down.
>
> Jon
>
I'll make a container for distilled water, it seems to work better than 
k2, and write some gcode to sweep the bottom of the slot, going down 
about .0001 per pass around the loop. I've thought of using a motor 
brush like for a Dremel tool, but they're so short to start. Longer  
electrodes can be pulled and the ends squared up when the taper gets 
obvious.  Or a copper wire set to wobble, and bent to cover the needed 
width as its being rotated, could always be filed by dragging it on a 
file so as the keep the bottom of the slot square.  The shaft came with 
an expanded web sheathing which is padding it in the vice right now, so 
its probably isolated from the vice. That will allow the file to be 
clamped to the vice. For the reservoir, I'll machine a medicine bottle 
lid to be water tight on the shaft, and mill an electrode slot in the 
side of the pill bottle. Fill it to the slot in distilled water & write 
the gcode to pick the wire out and take it to the file, incrementing the 
depth there by that same .0001" per pass. Air hose the file occasionally 
to keep it clean. I haven't measured a key for height though, but can 
measure the key in the old shaft to get an idea of the depth needed.

Nobody said it had to be fast, and it won't be but by keeping the wire 
sharp, and wobbling about the key width (.189") it ought to work.

I damaged the inner edge of my taperlock hub with the trapped key trying 
to get it out, but I've now got that polished smooth a again, and have 
now machined a slot for key access, matching the slot remains in the 
pulley which should make re-inserting the key a heck of a lot easier.  
There's very very little room, and a relief cut in the small end of the 
taperlock will make it considerably easier to get everthing in time so 
the key just tips into place.  The flange of the taperlock robs me of 
the space to do that, so the key has yo be put in while the taperlock 
hub is backed away and loose but the shaft when the key is inserted is 
about 3/4" left of where it runs. Once its in, the shaft is moved to the 
right, carrying the key in past the taper, then the drawbolts are 
tightened to about 1/16th turn from broke, going around the hub until 
they don't move any more.  With the working room I have I'll have to 
make the wrench into a really short arm, and with the belts dragging, 
tightening will take at least an hour, it took 2 to get them all loose 
to take it apart. I've even considered leaving that key out and 
depending entirely on the taperlocks grip. There is no wear mark on the 
key now so it hasn't been slipping and slapping against the key even 
when the old belts are yelping at the rigid tapping turnaround while 
reversing an 8" 40+lb chuck.

And my back is still complaining about that 2 days it took to get it 
apart.

With the shaft re-installed, raise it as high as it will go,  to get 
enough room to join the powerbelts I'm going to try to put in, then see 
if it has enough tension when its been lowered to the max again. run for 
an hour, jack it back up and see if enough slack to take another link 
out can be found. The guy in the Fenner video, he doesn't have hands, 
he's got to have fingers with built in vicegrips disguised to look like 
fingers. I might wind up putting fresh but normal belts in it, in which 
case it won't be together for another 2 weeks because I'll have to take 
it all back apart again. Supposedly matched of coarse, these sure as 
hell aren't. But I'd guess they are 40 yo too.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[TJoseph Powderly]

you ask for long lasting
that would be tungsten carbide
but
i suggest using easy to manufacture, easy to find, low cost
because it will wear anyway

so copper, with little lead ( often copper sold will be 'machineable' which
means lead which means higher wear )

for a key way you should be able to mill machine the electrodes
and use the largest face ( dont cut with small end of rectangular prism ,
cut with side )
( do the hokey pokey - put your big foot outi used to teach the
operators )
use LOTS of pecking, just get a sizzle and jump away

you dont have real edm equipment, just a hack so you gotta play safe

and set it up vertical and submerged if possible so the jump opens up to a
flood of the submerged fluid
pee down the cut from above and to the side, you want to see the black puff
out each jump

Negative polarity ( tool neg, work pos ) If you use an r/c pulse generator
then always negative tool.
Short ontimes and hi freq ( say 10to50uS on and 200 or more off , 2000 is
good for lash-up )

The exaggerated offtimes aid in letting the dielectric recuperate to non
conductive state.
The short cut times ( jump cycle ) aid in poor gap control, you actually
cut while ' in the zome'
but your system cant maintain the zone
So you get efficiency by 'drive by edm', you go thru the zone each jump
pass and get a little work done.
You jump away right away and reduce the heat build up ( because you likely
crashed into the work and shorted )

you're a scope kinda guy, try this...
reduce the gap using a resistor divider giving max 5v and watch the process
when you get more 'chairs' then you are cutting more
when you flat line, you're crashing
when its open voltage all the time you're missing
( old elox guys look for 'grass' like on a lawn ,
  there was a scope on all old elox generators,
  the 'grass' was due to slow scope )

hth
tomp



On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings all;
>
> Like Jon said on the sheldon list. woodruff keys cut into a case hardened
> shaft are a bear. Carbide makes a mark, for about 5 seconds.
>
> So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.
>
> Because the electrode will go away too, what makes the longest lasting
> electrode material?
>
> And which polarity, if it makes a difference?
>
> Thanks all;
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Jon Elson]

On 07/30/2019 09:14 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Like Jon said on the sheldon list. woodruff keys cut into a case hardened
shaft are a bear. Carbide makes a mark, for about 5 seconds.

So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.

Because the electrode will go away too, what makes the longest lasting
electrode material?

And which polarity, if it makes a difference?


I think you want workpiece positive, and either graphite or 
copper makes a good electrode.
Unless you do it with a second pass and new electrode, the 
slot is likely to get a taper as the electrode wears down.


Jon


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[Emc-users] EDM forms?

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

Like Jon said on the sheldon list. woodruff keys cut into a case hardened 
shaft are a bear. Carbide makes a mark, for about 5 seconds.

So it appears I will have to dig the keyways by EDM.

Because the electrode will go away too, what makes the longest lasting 
electrode material?

And which polarity, if it makes a difference?

Thanks all;

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

good point
i was an applications engineer
and i used that trick
sometimes you have to think well tho

(it dont always work like you think)

i always akin it to 'smoke goes up the chimney'
and
'dont blow down the chimney'

often the heat rise will aid the upwards flow and the swarf contained in 
the fluid
sometimes there's just too much stuff clogging the chimney ( the space 
between the tool and the cavity)
and sometimes the dirt is formed too deep for natural convection to clean
so
use flush, use jump, use ultrasonic vibration to loosen and keep the 
dirt in suspension
sometimes thicker oils sometimes thinner

sometimes upside down is good,
did you know the hydrogen gas bubbles would rise into the now inverted 
cavity?
gues what hapens when you spark into hydrogen ;-)
(oil is a hydrocarbon, the electrical energy _cracks_ it,  the carbon 
(you see 'dirt') and the hydrogen (you see smoke )

one method is not suitable to all cuts

so, form a picture of whats happening, test that picture every day
tomp tjtr33

On 02/12/17 11:43, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> I've got a question for you, TomP.  Why aren't sinker edm systems operated in 
> an inverted fashion, with the work facing down and the electrode underneath 
> facing upward?  I would think gravity could then help clear debris out of the 
> hole.
>
> -- Ralph
>
> On Feb 11, 2017 2:35 AM, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
>
> On 02/11/17 17:15, Andy Pugh wrote:
>>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>>
>>> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
>>> first and went back to a regular spindle.
>> Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might 
>> be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at 
>> the same time.
> true, less burr also
> less volts, more amps
> kind of like de-plating
> use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using carbide
> tubes ---old skool rule )
> a jig plate could do several at once. so the precision can be quite high
> still requires gap-width controller
> tomp
>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Ralph Stirling]

I've got a question for you, TomP.  Why aren't sinker edm systems operated in 
an inverted fashion, with the work facing down and the electrode underneath 
facing upward?  I would think gravity could then help clear debris out of the 
hole.

-- Ralph

On Feb 11, 2017 2:35 AM, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:


On 02/11/17 17:15, Andy Pugh wrote:
>
>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>
>> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
>> first and went back to a regular spindle.
> Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might 
> be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at 
> the same time.
true, less burr also
less volts, more amps
kind of like de-plating
use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using carbide
tubes ---old skool rule )
a jig plate could do several at once. so the precision can be quite high
still requires gap-width controller
tomp

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[Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Roland Jollivet]

You don't say how many holes to drill/hr, how many holes per part,
orientation of adjacent holes. (parallel, orthogonal)
It may be practical to have a setup with multiple heads that EDM drills all
the holes at once.


On 10 February 2017 at 23:59, Jim Craig  wrote:

> I am working on a project at work where we are designing a new CNC
> machine for a particular application. Up to this point I have been
> planning on using a standard machine spindle.
>
> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
> application.
>
> The application required drilling small 0.050" diameter holes through
> .135" thick stainless steel. The back side of these holes are in an
> annular space that cannot be easily reached for deburring.
>
> The reason I am contemplating the small hole EDM process is three fold.
> First it is difficult to drill these tiny holes in stainless and the
> drill bits frequently break. Secondly the back side of the hole needs to
> be burr free but is difficult to get to with conventional tools. Third
> the machine could be lighter and simpler if I use EDM vs a standard
> milling head.
>
> So my questions are as follows. What type of power supply would I need
> to use for doing small hole EDM drilling? Can I use a tig welder as the
> power supply and control pulsing with LinuxCNC driving an external IGBT?
> Could I use the Mesa THC to control gap of the electrode to the workpiece?
>
> It appears that spindles don't need to rotate very fast. What type of
> rpm do the spindles typically run at?
>
> That is all for now. I am sure I will have more to come.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

thats hot! 1mm dia.
tomp

On 02/12/17 04:52, Ken Strauss wrote:
> A local shop uses the larger version of these to deburr holes drilled in
> tubing. They claim to be usable in 0.040 holes and there is a Swiss company
> that I can't recall the name of that makes really small ones.
>
> http://www.ezburr.com/products/micro_series.php
>


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

Jim hello
again let me stress the word 'scale'
most google hits will claim edm has 'no burr'
thats a damn-lie (tm) invented by sales-people
i can feel it with my finger tip
IF it was done fast on a cheap machine
so there is a sliding scale of burr height from nanometers to tens of 
microns

the burr height is related to current at entry/exit (not solely 
dependant, bit its a biggie in the picture)
so you can get less burr if you reduce the power at entry and exit

http://bit.ly/2l6hvkx

the url shows edm hole burrs, it uses SEM photos ( scale again :-)

my discussion before was cheap taiwanes hopops
if you use an sophisticated(read expensive) machine
( say sarix or sodick or hitachi )
you will get control over the entry and exit power
and hopefully control over the control method at exit

changing from gap control to feed control at exit helps
because
when you exit the hole, there aint no gap, theres nothing in front of 
the tool tip
at that time the gap width control fails and the control begins to bang 
into that last tiny bit of stock hanging on the edge of the cave exit
and you get some nasty micro short circuits and some scraggy exit edges

if the control system is bad enuf, you actually push the remaining stock 
out!

again, its magnitude/scale,
so take a sample part to a jockey (aka applications engineer) and see 
what result you get
thats a good feasibility/reality test



On 02/12/17 01:27, Jim Craig wrote:
> On 2/10/2017 9:01 PM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
>>> The reason I am contemplating the small hole EDM process is three fold.
>>> First it is difficult to drill these tiny holes in stainless and the
>>> drill bits frequently break. Secondly the back side of the hole needs to
>>> be burr free but is difficult to get to with conventional tools.
>> scale again... 'burr free'
>> well edm produces a burr, its small a few thou to 10 thou depending on
>> energy at breakthru and the system ability to control position well
>> ( hammering thru with bang bang control has larger burr )
>> to get almost no burr, use a sacrificial plate and burn thru the SS and
>> into the sacrifice
> I will have to reconsider if it does not make a burr free hole without a
> backer. I was under the impression it did. I guess what I was reading
> was with a backer or a stack of parts. I am not sure if the client would
> consider a 10thou burr acceptable.
10thou is large and the size can be controlled at the expense of time
( small burr needs small current. small current = larger time )
Afaik there will always be some burr, but i'm talking tiny.
> This is a spherical part where we are drilling through the spherical
> shell into the hollow center. Some holes are off center again benefiting
> from the EDM process.
yes drilling off center on a ball is something the hole drill edm can do
it requires a bit of control work , its like riding a horse down hill on 
gravel
a lot of this is the driver/jockey controlling the machine, picking the 
right adjustments and having a good machine.
> We could possibly have fluid (water) in the core of the sphere would
> that help reduce the burr?
yes it will help, drilling from wet to dry will aggravate it
so 'help' is what it will do, it will not 'fix' the exit problem

> Snip
>> sorry i gets carried away with edm stuff
>> tomp tjtr33
> No reason to apologize. You have provided lots of good information here.
>
> Thanks a bunch,
>
> Jim
>
thank you
tomp tjtr33
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jim Craig]

On 2/11/2017 3:52 PM, Ken Strauss wrote:
> A local shop uses the larger version of these to deburr holes drilled in
> tubing. They claim to be usable in 0.040 holes and there is a Swiss company
> that I can't recall the name of that makes really small ones.
>
> http://www.ezburr.com/products/micro_series.php
>
>
Ken,

That looks like it just might work. Seems like EDM was going to get 
nearly as expensive as lasers (and sharks). For a good power supply 
spindle pump etc. . .

I will keep proceeding with the standard milling spindle for now. I may 
experiment with EDM on om own. Just for kicks. Because I don't have 
enough to do anyway.

Thanks all,

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Ken Strauss]

A local shop uses the larger version of these to deburr holes drilled in
tubing. They claim to be usable in 0.040 holes and there is a Swiss company
that I can't recall the name of that makes really small ones.

http://www.ezburr.com/products/micro_series.php


> -Original Message-
> From: dave [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 3:14 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling
>
> ECM can be good stuff but often slow. LOTS of current at low voltage.
> NaCl or NaOH as electrolyte. Byproducts may not be soluble and therefore a
> mess especially if you make ferric hydroxide; a mess to filter. I thought
about
> doing this in salt water. That is use water out of the bay. Not an option
for very
> many users.
> ECM is slow because it is electrochemistry. One equivalent wt of
> metal/coulomb.
>
> On another tack. Drill with carbide and then deburr by electropolishing.
> I've also seen some spring loaded tooling that will deburr both sides of a
hole.
>
> Some things are simply not easy unless you have unlimited $$$ to throw at
the
> problem.
>
> Dave
>
> On 02/11/2017 02:35 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> >
> > On 02/11/17 17:15, Andy Pugh wrote:
> >>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig <jimcraig5...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
> >>> first and went back to a regular spindle.
> >> Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It
> might be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be
made
> at the same time.
> > true, less burr also
> > less volts, more amps
> > kind of like de-plating
> > use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using
> > carbide tubes ---old skool rule ) a jig plate could do several at
> > once. so the precision can be quite high still requires gap-width
> > controller tomp
> >
> >> -
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[dave]

ECM can be good stuff but often slow. LOTS of current at low voltage. 
NaCl or NaOH as electrolyte. Byproducts may not be soluble and therefore 
a mess especially if you make ferric hydroxide; a mess to filter. I 
thought about doing
this in salt water. That is use water out of the bay. Not an option for 
very many users.
ECM is slow because it is electrochemistry. One equivalent wt of 
metal/coulomb.

On another tack. Drill with carbide and then deburr by electropolishing. 
I've also seen some spring loaded tooling that will deburr both sides of 
a hole.

Some things are simply not easy unless you have unlimited $$$ to throw 
at the problem.

Dave

On 02/11/2017 02:35 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
>
> On 02/11/17 17:15, Andy Pugh wrote:
>>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>>
>>> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
>>> first and went back to a regular spindle.
>> Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might 
>> be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at 
>> the same time.
> true, less burr also
> less volts, more amps
> kind of like de-plating
> use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using carbide
> tubes ---old skool rule )
> a jig plate could do several at once. so the precision can be quite high
> still requires gap-width controller
> tomp
>
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jim Craig]

On 2/10/2017 9:01 PM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
>> The reason I am contemplating the small hole EDM process is three fold.
>> First it is difficult to drill these tiny holes in stainless and the
>> drill bits frequently break. Secondly the back side of the hole needs to
>> be burr free but is difficult to get to with conventional tools.
> scale again... 'burr free'
> well edm produces a burr, its small a few thou to 10 thou depending on
> energy at breakthru and the system ability to control position well
> ( hammering thru with bang bang control has larger burr )
> to get almost no burr, use a sacrificial plate and burn thru the SS and
> into the sacrifice

I will have to reconsider if it does not make a burr free hole without a 
backer. I was under the impression it did. I guess what I was reading 
was with a backer or a stack of parts. I am not sure if the client would 
consider a 10thou burr acceptable.

This is a spherical part where we are drilling through the spherical 
shell into the hollow center. Some holes are off center again benefiting 
from the EDM process.

We could possibly have fluid (water) in the core of the sphere would 
that help reduce the burr?

Snip
> sorry i gets carried away with edm stuff
> tomp tjtr33

No reason to apologize. You have provided lots of good information here.

Thanks a bunch,

Jim


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jim Craig]

> The problem is EDM is very slow.  Your holes would take at
> the least, several minutes each.  But, they'd be pretty clean.
> You ought to get in touch with Ben Fleming, he demoed a
> pulser EDM system at some of the CNC workshops in Ann Arbor
> a few years ago.
>
> http://www.homebuiltedmmachines.com/build-a-pulse-edm/
>
> He has a book and a circuit board, and you can build it in a
> couple weekends.  It was VERY cool to watch it work!
>
> Jon
>
I found Ben's website. I will probably buy his book and circuit board to 
at least play with the concept.

Thanks,

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> >> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
> >> first and went back to a regular spindle.
> > Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might 
> > be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at 
> > the same time.
> true, less burr also
> less volts, more amps
> kind of like de-plating
> use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using carbide 
> tubes ---old skool rule )

Something different than round for example square or like a cogg wheel rotating 
to get good removal of debri?

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

On 02/11/17 17:15, Andy Pugh wrote:
>
>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>
>> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
>> first and went back to a regular spindle.
> Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might 
> be especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at 
> the same time.
true, less burr also
less volts, more amps
kind of like de-plating
use carbide tube ( you can get a round hole by rotating or using carbide 
tubes ---old skool rule )
a jig plate could do several at once. so the precision can be quite high
still requires gap-width controller
tomp

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Andy Pugh]

> On 10 Feb 2017, at 22:42, Jim Craig  wrote:
> 
> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers 
> first and went back to a regular spindle.

Also, going back to something else mentioned here, ECM might work. It might be 
especially effective if the geometry allows several holes to be made at the 
same time. 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Gregg Eshelman]

Some googling turned up info on first drilling through with an undersize tool 
then making a grinding pass to finished size.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12541-012-0123-2


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Gregg Eshelman]

Small  hole  EDM  (electrical  discharge  machining)  drilling,  also  known  
as  fast  
hole EDM drilling, hole popper, and start hole EDM drilling, was once relegated 
to a “last resort” method of drilling holes. Now, small hole EDM drilling is 
used 
for production work. Drilling speeds have been achieved of up to two inches per 
minute.  Holes  can  be  drilled  in  any  electrical  conductive  material,  
whether  hard  
or soft, including carbide. See Figure 14:1 for various small hole EDM machines.
http://www.reliableedm.com/Complete%20EDM%20Handbook/Complete%20EDM%20Handbook_14.pdf
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

i was surprised how much off the shelf stuff exists
its not impossible to reverse engineer the connections
but a working experience is handy
maybe you know an edm service engineer cum hacker?
the mechanical stuff ( motors spindles pumps ) are too cheap to mess 
with diy
the guides wont be a diy project, drilling holes thru ruby & ceramic 
aint easy )

save up for 1 1kva trafo!
tomp tjtr33
( i _think_ these teeny jpgs will pass the size restrictions on this list )

On 02/11/17 05:58, Comcast wrote:

The laser drilling was the first thing I thought of too.  Pratt & Whitney uses 
this process to drill similar size holes in the turbine blades.  The keep the slag 
out of the holes they fill the interior of the blade with epoxy:  Upon burn through 
the epoxy virtually explodes, blowing and slag or burr-like recast out of the hole.

N. Christopher




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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 10 February 2017 21:54:45 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/10/2017 03:59 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> > So my questions are as follows. What type of power supply would I
> > need to use for doing small hole EDM drilling? Can I use a tig
> > welder as the power supply and control pulsing with LinuxCNC driving
> > an external IGBT?
>
> TIG is constant current, and generally way more than you
> need. IGBTs are good for 400+ Volts, MOSFETs make more sense
> below that.
>
> > Could I use the Mesa THC to control gap of the electrode to the
> > workpiece?
> >
> > It appears that spindles don't need to rotate very fast. What type
> > of rpm do the spindles typically run at?

What I've done is A, rank amateur, and B, at 150 to 200 rpms so as not to 
be pitching the dielectric fluid, usually distilled water, all over.  
But whats the hole diameter and depth again?  If the hole is deep 
compared to the diameter, you'll be going down less than the hole 
diameter before the sludge shorts you out, so figure on doing a peck 
cycle, and figuring out how to flush the hole clean before putting the 
electrode back in the hole. If you can figure out how to feed dielectric 
into the right sized hypo needle, that would keep the hole flushed and 
would cut lots faster. But I've not managed to come up with a workable 
idea for that, I'm usually done by the time I've noodled out an idea I 
could do with what I had on hand. Best idea so far as do a peck, going 
about a thou deeper per peck, and doing the peck at a high enough speed 
to keep the mix well agitated so the sludge would be squirted out on the 
downstroke, and the upstroke would bring fresh water to dilute the 
sludge, in at a high enough speed to keep it well stirred.  Fast its not 
going to be.

The last time I was working in a deep hole, I was burning the center web 
out of a couple broken off in the hole 6-32 taps. IIRC it was much of a 
day for each broken tap cleared out of the hole.  But it still beat 
starting all over by $25 worth of steel and 3 days putzing around to 
make it again.

> The problem is EDM is very slow.  Your holes would take at
> the least, several minutes each.  But, they'd be pretty clean.
> You ought to get in touch with Ben Fleming, he demoed a
> pulser EDM system at some of the CNC workshops in Ann Arbor
> a few years ago.
>
> http://www.homebuiltedmmachines.com/build-a-pulse-edm/
>
> He has a book and a circuit board, and you can build it in a
> couple weekends.  It was VERY cool to watch it work!
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

wow, i gotta look into that epoxy idea,
we just pressurized the cavity with water
and that was a complex jig already!
thx tomp

On 02/11/17 05:58, Comcast wrote:
> The laser drilling was the first thing I thought of too.  Pratt & Whitney 
> uses this process to drill similar size holes in the turbine blades.  The 
> keep the slag out of the holes they fill the interior of the blade with 
> epoxy:  Upon burn through the epoxy virtually explodes, blowing and slag or 
> burr-like recast out of the hole.
>
> N. Christopher
>
>> On Feb 10, 2017, at 5:16 PM, andy pugh  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10 February 2017 at 21:59, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
>>> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
>>> application.
>>
>> Maybe consider lasers (and sharks?) too:
>> https://www.oxfordlasers.com/laser-micromachining/applications/fuel-injector-production/
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>>
>> --
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>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

re: other technogies...
if you can drill it, it'll be faster
a good applications engineer from a good company
can read your specs and give you tools and tooling that will do the job
it may be expensive but its pretty guaranteed and even proven on your 
test parts
tomp

On 02/11/17 05:42, Jim Craig wrote:
> On 2/10/2017 4:16 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 10 February 2017 at 21:59, Jim Craig  wrote:
>>> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
>>> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
>>> application.
>> Maybe consider lasers (and sharks?) too:
>> https://www.oxfordlasers.com/laser-micromachining/applications/fuel-injector-production/
>>
>>
> But that would cost 1 million dollars.
>
> Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers
> first and went back to a regular spindle.
>
> Thanks Andy,
>
> Jim
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[TJoseph Powderly]

Jim hello
I have worked with a lot of taiwanese hole drills ( hopops for short )

On 02/11/17 04:59, Jim Craig wrote:
> I am working on a project at work where we are designing a new CNC
> machine for a particular application. Up to this point I have been
> planning on using a standard machine spindle.
>
> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
> application.
>
> The application required drilling small 0.050" diameter holes through
> .135" thick stainless steel. The back side of these holes are in an
> annular space that cannot be easily reached for deburring.
ok scale & magnitude in this conversation...
  you say 'small hole' and...
.050 is almost optimum size ( 1mm dia is pretty the optimum for the 
technology)
2mm is difficult, .006 is difficult ( for std cheapo (<20k$) hopops )
> The reason I am contemplating the small hole EDM process is three fold.
> First it is difficult to drill these tiny holes in stainless and the
> drill bits frequently break. Secondly the back side of the hole needs to
> be burr free but is difficult to get to with conventional tools.
scale again... 'burr free'
well edm produces a burr, its small a few thou to 10 thou depending on
energy at breakthru and the system ability to control position well
( hammering thru with bang bang control has larger burr )
to get almost no burr, use a sacrificial plate and burn thru the SS and 
into the sacrifice

>   Third
> the machine could be lighter and simpler if I use EDM vs a standard
> milling head.
the time to burn .050 hole thru 0.1" SS should be near 45seconds
go to a shop to verify, or take a test pc to a sales house

>
> So my questions are as follows. What type of power supply would I need
> to use for doing small hole EDM drilling? Can I use a tig welder as the
> power supply and control pulsing with LinuxCNC driving an external IGBT?
igbt's are not popular/common in commerical units
igbt's have not been driven on and off as clean as individual fets, esp 
the irf series
(its the clean off drop that marks a low wear unit)
irf 540s and up are very very common ( theres a high-v spike due to 
overall system wiring,
things like wire wrapped resistors, cable length etc add capacitance and 
inductance)

the power should be , in _very_ general description...
100V open volts, 0-32 amperes supply in short circuit
the polarity will be negative to tool and the tool will be brass tubing
the on time will be 10 to 50uS and duty cycle 1-50%

since linuxcnc's ability to do stuff quick is limited by thread speed
you wont get better than your fastest thread as a time quantum for spark 
timing
( a 1ms thread period gets you 1ms time divisions, or 2ms with any 
jitter overages )
so plan on a pic ( very common ) or an arduino (fairly easy to hack)

the medium will be tap water, deionizing is not a _large_ benefit
submersing the part will aid in breakthru and less burrs

oh, a 'soft start' at lower current for a couple seconds will reduce 
entry burr.

the tool will be a tube with a .01ish hole thru it
a special feed thru chuck with a rubber seal is used
the rubber seal is pressed by water pressure onto a flange in the 
albrecht like chuck
the water pressure is 900-1500psi but delivered by a simple air driven pump
the pump has a large bore (4-8") and the piston is on a rod that goes 
thru both ends of chamber
this piston cycles back and forth thru the pressure chamber, driven by 
shop air (8bar+)
the cycle is controlled with 2 prox switches sensing a ferrous slug on 
the piston.
the ENDs of this shaft enter small bores at each end of the large bore 
and the ENDs are pistons themselves!
the small ends are sealed for the small bore and in the small bore is water!
this size ratio is the pressure amplification, 100psi in, 1500 psi out, 
stupid and simple
VERY low volume though, we only have a .01 hole to pass thru.
the system is controlled by the 2 prox swxs, so it the piston just 
cycles back and forth,
pumping tiny spoonfuls of hipressure water thru the tiny hole. a leading 
air pressure unit
(drying and pressure regulator) will controll the maximum value, a gauge 
on output leg
can show operator the value. it goes chug chug chug all day long.

After this high pressure water makes it thru all the plumbing restrictions
it isn't strong enuf to do more than dimple your fingertip. any line break
will immediately reduce to water at less that shop air pressure.

oh the thru hole water is neccesary, and as soon as you break thru, its 
LOST.
so the back up plate helps a lot, the submerging helps to a lesser degree

  
Could I use the Mesa THC to control gap of the electrode to the workpiece?

i got a mesa thc but used a hal component and a window comparator myself 
for sink edm
i did not build a hopop supply yet. got lotsa parts tho

the windo comp used a preliminary voltage divider to reduce 100V to 5V
the windo comp had 2 setpoints ( pot adjusted)
the 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jon Elson]

On 02/10/2017 03:59 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> So my questions are as follows. What type of power supply would I need
> to use for doing small hole EDM drilling? Can I use a tig welder as the
> power supply and control pulsing with LinuxCNC driving an external IGBT?
TIG is constant current, and generally way more than you 
need. IGBTs are good for 400+ Volts, MOSFETs make more sense 
below that.
> Could I use the Mesa THC to control gap of the electrode to the workpiece?
>
> It appears that spindles don't need to rotate very fast. What type of
> rpm do the spindles typically run at?
>
>
The problem is EDM is very slow.  Your holes would take at 
the least, several minutes each.  But, they'd be pretty clean.
You ought to get in touch with Ben Fleming, he demoed a 
pulser EDM system at some of the CNC workshops in Ann Arbor 
a few years ago.

http://www.homebuiltedmmachines.com/build-a-pulse-edm/

He has a book and a circuit board, and you can build it in a 
couple weekends.  It was VERY cool to watch it work!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Comcast]

The laser drilling was the first thing I thought of too.  Pratt & Whitney uses 
this process to drill similar size holes in the turbine blades.  The keep the 
slag out of the holes they fill the interior of the blade with epoxy:  Upon 
burn through the epoxy virtually explodes, blowing and slag or burr-like recast 
out of the hole.

N. Christopher

> On Feb 10, 2017, at 5:16 PM, andy pugh  wrote:
> 
>> On 10 February 2017 at 21:59, Jim Craig  wrote:
>> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
>> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
>> application.
> 
> 
> Maybe consider lasers (and sharks?) too:
> https://www.oxfordlasers.com/laser-micromachining/applications/fuel-injector-production/
> 
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jim Craig]

On 2/10/2017 4:16 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 10 February 2017 at 21:59, Jim Craig  wrote:
>> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
>> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
>> application.
>
> Maybe consider lasers (and sharks?) too:
> https://www.oxfordlasers.com/laser-micromachining/applications/fuel-injector-production/
>
>
But that would cost 1 million dollars.

Seriously though, lasers are expensive. I actually considered lasers 
first and went back to a regular spindle.

Thanks Andy,

Jim


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[andy pugh]

On 10 February 2017 at 21:59, Jim Craig  wrote:
> The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am
> thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this
> application.


Maybe consider lasers (and sharks?) too:
https://www.oxfordlasers.com/laser-micromachining/applications/fuel-injector-production/


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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[Emc-users] EDM Small Hole Drilling

[Jim Craig]

I am working on a project at work where we are designing a new CNC 
machine for a particular application. Up to this point I have been 
planning on using a standard machine spindle.

The more I think about the actual process and needs of the machine I am 
thinking that a small hole EDM drilling head would be better for this 
application.

The application required drilling small 0.050" diameter holes through 
.135" thick stainless steel. The back side of these holes are in an 
annular space that cannot be easily reached for deburring.

The reason I am contemplating the small hole EDM process is three fold. 
First it is difficult to drill these tiny holes in stainless and the 
drill bits frequently break. Secondly the back side of the hole needs to 
be burr free but is difficult to get to with conventional tools. Third 
the machine could be lighter and simpler if I use EDM vs a standard 
milling head.

So my questions are as follows. What type of power supply would I need 
to use for doing small hole EDM drilling? Can I use a tig welder as the 
power supply and control pulsing with LinuxCNC driving an external IGBT? 
Could I use the Mesa THC to control gap of the electrode to the workpiece?

It appears that spindles don't need to rotate very fast. What type of 
rpm do the spindles typically run at?

That is all for now. I am sure I will have more to come.

Thanks,

Jim


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

It would be good with links like this on the linuxcnc home page and of course 
even better with files themselves if there are no copyright restrictions.

I have attachad a pdf-file which is interesting.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 09:08:03 +0700
TJoseph Powderly <tjt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nicklas, Sarah and all interested in EDM
> i found this resource
> unlike most tech sites , the papers are free :-)
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/22128271/42/supp/C
> regards, tomp tjtr33
> 
> btw: lots more than edm here!
> 
> --
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edm-cnc-paper_nc.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas, Sarah and all interested in EDM
i found this resource
unlike most tech sites , the papers are free :-)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/22128271/42/supp/C
regards, tomp tjtr33

btw: lots more than edm here!

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:50:28 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> ...
> I understand the need for scaling the meters, sort of zoom to look 
> closer at the process

Yes and zoom on step length to fine tune. To scale values in widget is probably 
a very good idea since it is not real time and only need to be done once. As is 
now I added scaling to real time thread which require quite many rows and use 
real time execution then really not needed.

> in real machines, we had a switch on the ammeter to change the shunt, 
> and a switch on the voltmeter changing resistor divider
> an electro-mechanical solution so we could watch low voltages and low 
> current better

I think this is common and have often heard the noise of switches in 
measurement instruments as they switched range. If best possible measurement 
accuracy is needed this is the method to.

> we had no solution to watch midrange values closer

This is harder, an offset is needed.


I have seen a few improvements and sooner or later I should get enough time to 
look at them.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I could confirm it works perfect, it was a really simple fix.

Then I look at code to add a widget does not seem to hard.


> I pushed a fix for hal_dial to 2.7 - not sure what you are using.
> 
> eventually it will cycle thru to master (and later releases)
> 
> 
> 
> The fix is simple (two lines) if you wish to just add it for now.
> 
> 
> in gladevcp/hal_dial.py
> 
> 
> 
> # handle the scroll wheel of the mouse
> def _scroll(self, widget, event):
> if event.direction == gtk.gdk.SCROLL_UP:
> self._count += 1
> self._minute_offset +=1
> self._delta_scaled += self.scale #<<<<<<<<<< this one
> if event.direction == gtk.gdk.SCROLL_DOWN:
> self._count -= 1
> self._minute_offset -=1
> self._delta_scaled -= self.scale #<<<<<<<<<<< and this one
> self._last_offset =  self._minute_offset
> self.redraw_canvas()
> self.emit("count_changed", self._count,self.scale,self._delta_scaled)
> 
> I tested on my machine it seemed to work fine after that.
> Chris M
> 
> From: Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com>
> Sent: January 10, 2017 9:51 PM
> To: EMC
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> 
> 
> That sounds like a bug...wheel or mouse should move it the same.
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 1:35 PM
> 
> 
> 
> In sort of the delta scale is a little bit slippery. It slip while using the 
> mouse wheel and only graphics is moving but no update of value. Then left 
> mouse button is held down and dial is moved by moving mouse pointer both 
> graphics and value is updated.
> 
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
> Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
> > clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
> > think you want.
> > Chris M
> >
> > - Reply message -
> > From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> > Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
> >   min
> >   max
> >   scale
> >   increment value
> >   increment value change from GUI
> >   A choice to between actual or scaled value
> >
> > None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
> > needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
> >
> > Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
> > is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, 
> > if anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better 
> > start with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours 
> > for it this weekend.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
> > Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Ni⁣cklas,
> > > Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> > > discussion
> > >
> > > Sarah
> > >
> > > Sent from BlueMail
> > >
> > > On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> > > <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> > > >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> > > >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> > > >
> > > >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> > > >someone started work on this earlier.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> > > >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> > > >of speed and put control loop local.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> > > >
> > > >

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Chris Morley]

I pushed a fix for hal_dial to 2.7 - not sure what you are using.

eventually it will cycle thru to master (and later releases)



The fix is simple (two lines) if you wish to just add it for now.


in gladevcp/hal_dial.py



# handle the scroll wheel of the mouse
def _scroll(self, widget, event):
if event.direction == gtk.gdk.SCROLL_UP:
self._count += 1
self._minute_offset +=1
self._delta_scaled += self.scale #<<<<<<<<<< this one
if event.direction == gtk.gdk.SCROLL_DOWN:
self._count -= 1
self._minute_offset -=1
self._delta_scaled -= self.scale #<<<<<<<<<<< and this one
self._last_offset =  self._minute_offset
self.redraw_canvas()
self.emit("count_changed", self._count,self.scale,self._delta_scaled)

I tested on my machine it seemed to work fine after that.
Chris M

From: Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com>
Sent: January 10, 2017 9:51 PM
To: EMC
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments


That sounds like a bug...wheel or mouse should move it the same.

- Reply message -
From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 1:35 PM



In sort of the delta scale is a little bit slippery. It slip while using the 
mouse wheel and only graphics is moving but no update of value. Then left mouse 
button is held down and dial is moved by moving mouse pointer both graphics and 
value is updated.


On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
> clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
> think you want.
> Chris M
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
>
>
>
> I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
>   min
>   max
>   scale
>   increment value
>   increment value change from GUI
>   A choice to between actual or scaled value
>
> None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
> needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
>
> Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
> is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
> anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start 
> with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it 
> this weekend.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
> Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ni⁣cklas,
> > Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> > discussion
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > Sent from BlueMail
> >
> > On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> > <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> > >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> > >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> > >
> > >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> > >someone started work on this earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> > >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> > >of speed and put control loop local.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> > >
> > >--
> > >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > >Training and support from Colfax.
> > >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > >___
> > >Emc-users mailing list
> > >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > --
> > Devel

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[TJoseph Powderly]

a lot of the pyvcp widgets suffered from update problems
i dont know about gladevcp widgets, but it sounds similar.
how to fix in gladevcp, i dont know. i have not looked at the widget 
code yet
i will set up some oscillating value for a glade meter to follow and 
experiment
I understand the need for scaling the meters, sort of zoom to look 
closer at the process
in real machines, we had a switch on the ammeter to change the shunt, 
and a switch on the voltmeter changing resistor divider
an electro-mechanical solution so we could watch low voltages and low 
current better
we had no solution to watch midrange values closer
regards
tomp tjtr33

On 01/11/17 04:51, Chris Morley wrote:
> That sounds like a bug...wheel or mouse should move it the same.
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 1:35 PM
>
>
>
> In sort of the delta scale is a little bit slippery. It slip while using the 
> mouse wheel and only graphics is moving but no update of value. Then left 
> mouse button is held down and dial is moved by moving mouse pointer both 
> graphics and value is updated.
>
>
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
> Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
>> clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
>> think you want.
>> Chris M
>>
>> - Reply message -
>> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
>> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
>>min
>>max
>>scale
>>increment value
>>increment value change from GUI
>>A choice to between actual or scaled value
>>
>> None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
>> needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
>>
>> Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
>> is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, 
>> if anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better 
>> start with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours 
>> for it this weekend.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
>> Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ni⁣cklas,
>>> Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
>>> discussion
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>> Sent from BlueMail ​
>>>
>>> On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
>>> <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
>>>> desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
>>>> drives, digital IO, spark generator.
>>>>
>>>> Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
>>>> someone started work on this earlier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
>>>> also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
>>>> of speed and put control loop local.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards Nicklas Karlsson
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>>>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
>>>> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
>>>> Training and support from Colfax.
>>>> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>>>> ___
>>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> --
>>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platfo

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Chris Morley]

That sounds like a bug...wheel or mouse should move it the same.

- Reply message -
From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 1:35 PM



In sort of the delta scale is a little bit slippery. It slip while using the 
mouse wheel and only graphics is moving but no update of value. Then left mouse 
button is held down and dial is moved by moving mouse pointer both graphics and 
value is updated.


On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
> clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
> think you want.
> Chris M
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
>
>
>
> I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
>   min
>   max
>   scale
>   increment value
>   increment value change from GUI
>   A choice to between actual or scaled value
>
> None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
> needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
>
> Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
> is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
> anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start 
> with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it 
> this weekend.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
> Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ni⁣cklas,
> > Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> > discussion
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > Sent from BlueMail ​
> >
> > On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> > <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> > >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> > >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> > >
> > >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> > >someone started work on this earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> > >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> > >of speed and put control loop local.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> > >
> > >--
> > >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > >Training and support from Colfax.
> > >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > >___
> > >Emc-users mailing list
> > >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > --
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Acce

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

In sort of the delta scale is a little bit slippery. It slip while using the 
mouse wheel and only graphics is moving but no update of value. Then left mouse 
button is held down and dial is moved by moving mouse pointer both graphics and 
value is updated.


On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
> clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
> think you want.
> Chris M
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
> 
> 
> 
> I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
>   min
>   max
>   scale
>   increment value
>   increment value change from GUI
>   A choice to between actual or scaled value
> 
> None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
> needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
> 
> Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
> is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
> anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start 
> with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it 
> this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
> Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Ni⁣cklas,
> > Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> > discussion
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > Sent from BlueMail ​
> >
> > On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> > <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> > >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> > >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> > >
> > >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> > >someone started work on this earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> > >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> > >of speed and put control loop local.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> > >
> > >--
> > >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > >Training and support from Colfax.
> > >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > >___
> > >Emc-users mailing list
> > >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > --
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
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With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
Training and support from Colfax.
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Yes it does but it also have a bug.

It only works then moved by the mouse but value is not updated then using the 
mouse wheel sd I did during the first try, it is good enough for now. I could 
fine tune and will finish of others before starting something new.



On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:45:24 +
Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
> clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I 
> think you want.
> Chris M
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM
> 
> 
> 
> I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
>   min
>   max
>   scale
>   increment value
>   increment value change from GUI
>   A choice to between actual or scaled value
> 
> None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
> needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.
> 
> Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer 
> is really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
> anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start 
> with the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it 
> this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
> Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Ni⁣cklas,
> > Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> > discussion
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > Sent from BlueMail ​
> >
> > On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> > <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> > >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> > >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> > >
> > >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> > >someone started work on this earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> > >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> > >of speed and put control loop local.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> > >
> > >--
> > >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > >Training and support from Colfax.
> > >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > >___
> > >Emc-users mailing list
> > >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > --
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Chris Morley]

Hal dial has a pin called delta scale I think. Then changing the scale (by 
clicking) only changes the scale of future dial moments, which is what I think 
you want.
Chris M

- Reply message -
From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments
Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 12:34 PM



I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
  min
  max
  scale
  increment value
  increment value change from GUI
  A choice to between actual or scaled value

None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.

Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer is 
really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start with 
the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it this 
weekend.



On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ni⁣cklas,
> Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> discussion
>
> Sarah
>
> Sent from BlueMail ​
>
> On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
> <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> >
> >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> >someone started work on this earlier.
> >
> >
> >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> >of speed and put control loop local.
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >--
> >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >Training and support from Colfax.
> >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >___
> >Emc-users mailing list
> >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
Training and support from Colfax.
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With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, user interface, increments

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I discovered the limitations of the hal inputs, what is needed is:
  min
  max
  scale
  increment value
  increment value change from GUI
  A choice to between actual or scaled value

None of the do it all.The hal dial may change the scale but what is really 
needed is possibility to change increment value for fine tuning.

Despite these small limitations I still think glade user interface designer is 
really good. Since source code is available it is also possible change, if 
anybody could give me a hint maybe I could look into it but I better start with 
the unfinished g-code database, I think where will be  few hours for it this 
weekend.



On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:04:05 +
Sarah Armstrong  wrote:

> Ni⁣cklas, 
> Could you give me details etc, and I can get up to date, and join the 
> discussion 
> 
> Sarah 
> 
> Sent from BlueMail ​
> 
> On 19 Dec 2016, 20:16, at 20:16, Nicklas Karlsson 
>  wrote:
> >Finally I have all the necessary hardware parts, some are still on
> >desktop not connected to machine but they are tested to work: servo
> >drives, digital IO, spark generator.
> >
> >Right now I start to think about user interface and as I remember
> >someone started work on this earlier.
> >
> >
> >If anyone is interested I could share hardware drawings or others. I
> >also changed a few rows in drivers so that positions are sent instead
> >of speed and put control loop local.
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >--
> >Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >Training and support from Colfax.
> >Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >___
> >Emc-users mailing list
> >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I used in CAN network and have seen something about it is available on 
Ethernet. To send messages over SPI or UART should be no problem. Nice thing is 
PDO for real time and SDO for configuration, then i use interpolated position 
mode there is a need to set the gain.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:19:54 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas
> i found
> http://www.siegels.us/HomeAutomation/CANOpen_Node_SGS/Tutorial.pdf
> to learn about canopen pdo
> very interesting idea you have
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas
i found
http://www.siegels.us/HomeAutomation/CANOpen_Node_SGS/Tutorial.pdf
to learn about canopen pdo
very interesting idea you have
tomp tjtr33


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Ready to go

[TJoseph Powderly]

Hello Nicklas

On 01/06/17 21:32, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I am better do some real machining and research first. Good news is I am 
> basically ready to go. Yesterday graphics card freeze the screen and Eclipse 
> refused to work but now everything is good.
>
> EDM machine is located in cold garage and temperature is to low this weekend 
> so I postpone test run but next weekend look more promising.
>
> As use my own hardware run on Micro controllers I have been thinking a bit 
> suitable protocol or more exact message format for protocol since it would be 
> good if messages could be sent over several different medias: Ethernet, maybe 
> RS-485, UART, SPI. CANopen might be a choice since it have both PDO and a 
> dictionary for parameters.
do i understand correctly? your idea is to use (maybe) canopen protocol 
but on ethernet or rs-485 etc hardware?
and do i get the name right... PDO is Process Data Object ( exists in 
CanOpen )?
and 'dictionary for parameters' as in python where there is a pair 'key' 
and 'value' ?

i can see an advantage to a standard 'language' over a variety of 
communication hardwares

regards
tomp tjtr33


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Ready to go

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I am better do some real machining and research first. Good news is I am 
basically ready to go. Yesterday graphics card freeze the screen and Eclipse 
refused to work but now everything is good.

EDM machine is located in cold garage and temperature is to low this weekend so 
I postpone test run but next weekend look more promising.

As use my own hardware run on Micro controllers I have been thinking a bit 
suitable protocol or more exact message format for protocol since it would be 
good if messages could be sent over several different medias: Ethernet, maybe 
RS-485, UART, SPI. CANopen might be a choice since it have both PDO and a 
dictionary for parameters.

> 
> 
> On 01/06/17 15:55, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> Nicklashello
> >> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
> >> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
> >>
> >> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
> >> this time measure will change and  decrease
> >> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting
> >> quality).
> > Time for a peck cycle?
> no the ionization time decreases as the conductivity increases ( due to 
> debris in the oil, makes it more conductive )
> >
> >> IF the time is too small,
> >> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
> >> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
> >> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
> >> or more offtime or a combination of these
> >>
> >> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
> >> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to
> >> subsequent pulses
> >> other strategies are in scientific papers
> >>
> >> re: The sparc counter
> >> not sure what the count deal with yet
> >> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted /
> >> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
> >> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would
> >> increae that ratio
> > Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed?
> well, the ionization time is a better indication that peck cycle is needed
> and
> ionizations attempted / sparcs  ( a low percentage ) can be used to 
> indicate
>offtime needs to be increased
> and/or
>gap distance needs to be increased
> 
> if changing offtime or gap distance has no appreciable effect, its 
> usually best to return to previous values
> no effect indicates the system is tuned well enough already
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
> >> BUT
> >> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
> >> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that
> >> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
> >> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)
> > I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to 
> > present some kind of average seems like a good idea.
> >
> > There is:
> >Number of ionizations.
> >Number of sparc.
> >Some theorethical numbers.
> >It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization 
> > or other if this provide some useful information.
> i thought you were measuring time to ionize already, so i am not clear 
> on what the 'number of ionizations' vs 'number of sparcs' means
> one ionization to me is   [ a rise of voltage towards Uopen, then a drop 
> towards Udischarge ]
> i think you must have a different event for one count, like just the rise
> a rise ( without a fall ) will occur when tool is too far away from work 
> to sparc
> 
> yes, get some experience before tackling adaptive control system
> watch a lot of sparcs! they are quite interesting visually, on voltage 
> scope, on current scope, on frequency domain scope
> 
> just for interest
> the auto jump is very important for thin deep slots ( called 'ribs' )
> and heres a paper with a pulse discriminator, and auto jump circuit 
> description ( no schematic or CPLD code :-(((
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251896377_Control_Strategy_for_High_Speed_Electrical_Discharge_Machining_Die-sinking_EDM_Equipped_with_Linear_Motors
> 
> HTH
> tomp tjtr33
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

On 01/06/17 15:55, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>> Nicklashello
>> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
>> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
>>
>> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
>> this time measure will change and  decrease
>> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting
>> quality).
> Time for a peck cycle?
no the ionization time decreases as the conductivity increases ( due to 
debris in the oil, makes it more conductive )
>
>> IF the time is too small,
>> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
>> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
>> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
>> or more offtime or a combination of these
>>
>> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
>> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to
>> subsequent pulses
>> other strategies are in scientific papers
>>
>> re: The sparc counter
>> not sure what the count deal with yet
>> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted /
>> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
>> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would
>> increae that ratio
> Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed?
well, the ionization time is a better indication that peck cycle is needed
and
ionizations attempted / sparcs  ( a low percentage ) can be used to 
indicate
   offtime needs to be increased
and/or
   gap distance needs to be increased

if changing offtime or gap distance has no appreciable effect, its 
usually best to return to previous values
no effect indicates the system is tuned well enough already



>
>> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
>> BUT
>> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
>> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that
>> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
>> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)
> I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to present 
> some kind of average seems like a good idea.
>
> There is:
>Number of ionizations.
>Number of sparc.
>Some theorethical numbers.
>It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization or 
> other if this provide some useful information.
i thought you were measuring time to ionize already, so i am not clear 
on what the 'number of ionizations' vs 'number of sparcs' means
one ionization to me is   [ a rise of voltage towards Uopen, then a drop 
towards Udischarge ]
i think you must have a different event for one count, like just the rise
a rise ( without a fall ) will occur when tool is too far away from work 
to sparc

yes, get some experience before tackling adaptive control system
watch a lot of sparcs! they are quite interesting visually, on voltage 
scope, on current scope, on frequency domain scope

just for interest
the auto jump is very important for thin deep slots ( called 'ribs' )
and heres a paper with a pulse discriminator, and auto jump circuit 
description ( no schematic or CPLD code :-(((
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251896377_Control_Strategy_for_High_Speed_Electrical_Discharge_Machining_Die-sinking_EDM_Equipped_with_Linear_Motors

HTH
tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Nicklashello
> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
> 
> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
> this time measure will change and  decrease
> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting 
> quality).

Time for a peck cycle?

> IF the time is too small,
> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
> or more offtime or a combination of these
> 
> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to 
> subsequent pulses
> other strategies are in scientific papers
> 
> re: The sparc counter
> not sure what the count deal with yet
> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted / 
> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would 
> increae that ratio

Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed? 

> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
> BUT
> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that 
> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)

I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to present 
some kind of average seems like a good idea.

There is:
  Number of ionizations.
  Number of sparc.
  Some theorethical numbers.
  It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization or 
other if this provide some useful information.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklashello
the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.

the idea is that IF the gap is very clean ,
and constantly clean,
each ignition delay time measured will be uniform
and will be a 'standard' value for comparison.

as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
this time measure will change and  decrease
because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting 
quality).
( we taught users that the dirt was like stepping stones for the 
lighting bolt of the spark )

IF the time is too small,
then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
or more offtime or a combination of these

this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to 
subsequent pulses
other strategies are in scientific papers

re: The sparc counter
not sure what the count deal with yet
it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted / 
sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would 
increae that ratio

adaptive control in edm is a great idea
BUT
make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that 
turning the autopilots off was neccesary
( let ME drive the damn thing!)

research often calls these devices  'pulse discriminators' <<<--- google 
that for more

http://reza.hoseinnezhad.com/papers/Kotler_MST_preprint.pdf

there was a good one by Prof Rajurkar at Univ Nebraska but i cant find it
we built one with FORTH NMIS boards, and our Taiwan machines used a tiny 
PEEL and a PIC microcontroller to measure ionization time
of course there were resistor dividers to reduce the 100+Volts and a 
diode bridge to make sure the polarity sampled was correct
then some unity gain OPs then level sensing ladder to sort out digital 
info about Volatge level at what time during the attempted pulse
some was too fast for the PIC so the logic of the PEEL was needed

tomp tjtr33

On 01/06/17 04:41, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I am thinking about the ionization and sparc counters. These counters might 
> be useful to calculate how well the process work and maybe adjust parameters?
>
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
>> Hello
>> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
>> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
>> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
>> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
>> thanks
>> tomp tjtr33
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I am thinking about the ionization and sparc counters. These counters might be 
useful to calculate how well the process work and maybe adjust parameters?

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Protocol

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Not yet I am still thinking. CANopen is used on CAN but I have also seen 
implementation over Ethernet and guess same packet could be routed to serial or 
SPI.

CANopen protocol is attractive because it have simple PDO for real time data 
and SDO for dictionary with parameters.

What I want is a standard protocol with more or less same packet format on 
different media, simple packets with little overhead and a dictionary for 
parameters.

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:40:29 +
Sarah Armstrong  wrote:

> Nicklas ,
> any changes  needed , i'd like to know
> 
> should we put a repro together , might make life easier
> 
> Sarah
> 
> On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> > digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> > to test this weekend.
> >
> > I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> > is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> > books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
> >
> > If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> > linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> > TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello
> > > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > > thanks
> > > tomp tjtr33
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 09:40:39 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas, hello
> 
> 
> On 01/03/17 04:17, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and 
> > receive absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with 
> > configuration parameter.
> do i think correctly ? the stepper gets position commands, not step & dir ?

Yes originally, but I made a small change to the driver so I could send 
absolute values, this was the simlest driver to modify. I only send like lower 
16 bits so it will be "encoder style".

> > The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
> > interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read 
> > Profibus use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to 
> > complex and I do not know about parameters.
> does 'interpolated position mode' mean the position commands are delta? 
> dx dy dz commands

No delta, it is absolute values but only 16 bits so it will be like a 16 bit 
encoder counter.

> > CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for 
> > real time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other 
> > media. Via TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set 
> > parameters or a web server but a standard industrial protocol used with 
> > ordinary configuration tools are probably better.
> >
> new type drivers using 'standard ... protocols.. . with ordinary 
> configuration tools' is of benefit to larger non-edm audience

Yes I know, it will or are also used for other machines. For EDM feedback is 
needed but for other machines path is known beforehand and there could also be 
a small receive FIFO.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Nicklas hello
> everybody is a novice in EDM, its just full of surprises ;-)
> 
> 'interpolated position mode' ...doesthis mean position loop in hardware?

No but it could as well be. It is position loop locally inside servo driver. It 
is ran twice each switching period, once for each switching flank.

It is rather simple to add interpolation between received position and average 
receive periods but I have not yet implemented.

To send values from encoder worked great so I figured it should work equally in 
other direction and then there is no limitation in size for position in 
protocol. It is a fast hack and I am right now thinking about a standard 
protocol.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas, hello


On 01/03/17 04:17, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and receive 
> absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with 
> configuration parameter.
do i think correctly ? the stepper gets position commands, not step & dir ?
> The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
> interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read Profibus 
> use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to complex and I do 
> not know about parameters.
does 'interpolated position mode' mean the position commands are delta? 
dx dy dz commands
> CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for real 
> time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other media. Via 
> TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set parameters or 
> a web server but a standard industrial protocol used with ordinary 
> configuration tools are probably better.
>
new type drivers using 'standard ... protocols.. . with ordinary 
configuration tools' is of benefit to larger non-edm audience


thanks
tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas hello
everybody is a novice in EDM, its just full of surprises ;-)

'interpolated position mode' ...doesthis mean position loop in hardware?

regards
Tomp tjtr33

On 01/03/17 01:34, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got digital 
> outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able to test 
> this weekend.
>
> I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response is 
> fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru books 
> right now to get control loop as good as possible.
>
> If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify linuxcnc 
> protocol, modification is simple.
>
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and receive 
absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with configuration 
parameter.

The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read Profibus 
use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to complex and I do 
not know about parameters.

CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for real 
time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other media. Via 
TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set parameters or a 
web server but a standard industrial protocol used with ordinary configuration 
tools are probably better.


On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:40:29 +
Sarah Armstrong  wrote:

> Nicklas ,
> any changes  needed , i'd like to know
> 
> should we put a repro together , might make life easier
> 
> Sarah
> 
> On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> > digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> > to test this weekend.
> >
> > I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> > is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> > books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
> >
> > If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> > linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> > TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello
> > > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > > thanks
> > > tomp tjtr33
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > --
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

Nicklas ,
any changes  needed , i'd like to know

should we put a repro together , might make life easier

Sarah

On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
wrote:

> Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> to test this weekend.
>
> I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
>
> If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
>
>
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
> > Hello
> > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > thanks
> > tomp tjtr33
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> --
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> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got digital 
outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able to test 
this weekend.

I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response is 
fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru books right 
now to get control loop as good as possible.

If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify linuxcnc 
protocol, modification is simple.


On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

Thanks Thomas , for the video , very interesting and informative too , i
learned some more lol
look forward to getting all this together

Sarah

On 2 January 2017 at 16:53, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
>
>
>
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Hello
video of early iteration of edm panel in use
https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
but a working model is better than just thinkin'
thanks
tomp tjtr33



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Tabs are probably a very good idea, it is easy to switch in between. Even 
though my knowledge about EDM machining is very limited to to select parameter 
from a file or database sounds like a really good idea, I have seen tables with 
parameters in manual.

If there are any problems with the software I will try to help.

I have three cables for digital outputs to solder and need to connect the EDM 
generator again then my machine is ready to test for the first time. I also 
lack dielectricum storage tank and pump but that's a minor problem then I got 
the machine running.



On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 02:01:28 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> planning 3 tabs
> 'tech' you select edm parameters from a flatfile database OR rool your 
> own on/off/current/polarity/ignition voltage
> 'cut' you control live cut   generator on/off, offtime, target voltage, 
> gain for edm servo, peck cutting parms, fill(flood) & flushing parms
> and you monitor AvgVoltage AvgCurrent Stability Arcing ... ooops it 
> 2am, cutting it short
> 'strategy'  orbiting
> 
> tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

good progress , i cant come up with any omissions , at least at this stage



On 29 December 2016 at 19:01, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> planning 3 tabs
> 'tech' you select edm parameters from a flatfile database OR rool your own
> on/off/current/polarity/ignition voltage
> 'cut' you control live cut   generator on/off, offtime, target voltage,
> gain for edm servo, peck cutting parms, fill(flood) & flushing parms
>and you monitor AvgVoltage AvgCurrent Stability Arcing ... ooops it
> 2am, cutting it short
> 'strategy'  orbiting
>
> tomp tjtr33
>
>
> 
> --
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>


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:18:12 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas
> are you using theses abbreviation meanings?
> .u = umschaltung  or Voltage
> .i = current
> .t = time

Yes, .u=voltage, .i=current, .t=time
> 
> re: edm.u.Sparc , is this a flag meaning the spark generator is active, 
> or what?

edm.u.Sparc is to set at which voltage level sparc extidinguising turn off 
generator, this is done by hardware comparator.

> re: edm.t.On & Off , are these integer microseconds or floats?

I think float SI-units is a good choice.

> re: edm.u.Ionization, is this a flag meaning ionization occured?

No it set at which voltage level ionization is detected and edm.t.on start to 
cunt, maybe this should be skipped? Or a parameter instead?

> re: emd.u.Seat, is this the discharge voltage, is this also the servo 
> target?

edm.u.Seat is the measured discharge voltage.

> re: edm.u.Open, is this the ignition voltage ( usually less that 3 
> amperes, and for example AGie 60L is 100 150 200 270 selectable )?

Yes edm.u.Open is the ignition voltage.

>or the actual cutting supply no-load voltage (neccesarily > discharge 
> voltage and often 60-120volts, 115 in my system)

Is it necessary to set cutting supply voltage?

> re: edm.i  , i think this is current,

Yes it is measured current. But there is also a need to adjust maximum current 
which I forgot.

> when I talked about ipkval it refered to the maximum (peak) current 
> available is a dead short

I think I forgot this one.

>in a normal discharge, the reactance of the spark gap acts sort of 
> like a resistor, the Actual current will be less
>the joules delivered is (ontime-ionizationTime ) * (dischargeVoltage) 
> * (actualCurrent )
> 
> re: edm.ionizationCount .sparcCnt  these are very fast changing data,
>too fast for threads,
>but outside hardware (i used PICs) can report running averages
>these data can be used to evaluate process quality and can lead to 
> adjusting the offtime , flush, cut duration of jumping strategy

Yes they are to fast for threads and counted in EDM power supply. Then sent 
periodically number of counts since last time sent I think is a good choice and 
then they could be averaged inside linuxcnc.

> re: old mcodes, they are just models, they can be changed easily, likely 
> individual codes for individual parameters is better
>the M110 can be moved and can be broken into individual set_on & set_off
>the M112 sets the supplied peak current, and since my interface was 
> binary, had special code for that
>the M199 was a position limit number, a position that constrained the 
> Hal motion
> ( i did not use linuxcnc gcodes tho i operated inside linuxcnc)
> the tool was not allowed to exceed this position.
> It is related to M198 which is a timer.
> Edm process is not complete as soon as the tool arrives to the 
> programmed position,
> as the surface is not completely cut yet.
> So, i wait for the tool to maintain the final position until the gap 
> voltage rises
> THEN wait an additional security time (M198 monitors this)
> THEN the system is ready to proceed to next step.
>This is similar to linuxcnc exactStopMode extreme!
> 
> in general a wedm user interface is different than sink edm
> 
> wedm is a path, like a mill
>   the wedm cuts while along a path
>   wedm uses cutter comp a lot, to change the path from roughing ( far 
> away from the path ) to finishing ( close to the path )
> sink edm is like a cnc punch press
>   the sink edm gets into position then cuts with very small motion in a 
> single location
>   sink edm moves around each location , first achieving th enet shape 
> during rough stage then about the location ( orbiting ) while refining 
> the surface
> 
> so the user interface may be very different
> 
> i will look into the user interface also
> you still have the coffeecup edm for testing?

No, the coffecup EDM have delivered back to child long and broken into pieces 
long time ago but I have the real machine. The goal with the parameters is to 
get something similar as for motion.spindle and hopefully same parameters could 
be used for wire EDM. I think SI-units is a good choice but then they could be 
scaled to internal units before sent to power supply.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas
are you using theses abbreviation meanings?
.u = umschaltung  or Voltage
.i = current
.t = time

re: edm.u.Sparc , is this a flag meaning the spark generator is active, 
or what?
re: edm.t.On & Off , are these integer microseconds or floats?
re: edm.u.Ionization, is this a flag meaning ionization occured? ( 
threads are not fast enough fpr that, ionization from initialization is 
submicrosecond)
re: emd.u.Seat, is this the discharge voltage, is this also the servo 
target?
re: edm.u.Open, is this the ignition voltage ( usually less that 3 
amperes, and for example AGie 60L is 100 150 200 270 selectable )?
   or the actual cutting supply no-load voltage (neccesarily > discharge 
voltage and often 60-120volts, 115 in my system)

re: edm.i  , i think this is current,
when I talked about ipkval it refered to the maximum (peak) current 
available is a dead short
   in a normal discharge, the reactance of the spark gap acts sort of 
like a resistor, the Actual current will be less
   the joules delivered is (ontime-ionizationTime ) * (dischargeVoltage) 
* (actualCurrent )

re: edm.ionizationCount .sparcCnt  these are very fast changing data,
   too fast for threads,
   but outside hardware (i used PICs) can report running averages
   these data can be used to evaluate process quality and can lead to 
adjusting the offtime , flush, cut duration of jumping strategy

re: old mcodes, they are just models, they can be changed easily, likely 
individual codes for individual parameters is better
   the M110 can be moved and can be broken into individual set_on & set_off
   the M112 sets the supplied peak current, and since my interface was 
binary, had special code for that
   the M199 was a position limit number, a position that constrained the 
Hal motion
( i did not use linuxcnc gcodes tho i operated inside linuxcnc)
the tool was not allowed to exceed this position.
It is related to M198 which is a timer.
Edm process is not complete as soon as the tool arrives to the 
programmed position,
as the surface is not completely cut yet.
So, i wait for the tool to maintain the final position until the gap 
voltage rises
THEN wait an additional security time (M198 monitors this)
THEN the system is ready to proceed to next step.
   This is similar to linuxcnc exactStopMode extreme!

in general a wedm user interface is different than sink edm

wedm is a path, like a mill
  the wedm cuts while along a path
  wedm uses cutter comp a lot, to change the path from roughing ( far 
away from the path ) to finishing ( close to the path )
sink edm is like a cnc punch press
  the sink edm gets into position then cuts with very small motion in a 
single location
  sink edm moves around each location , first achieving th enet shape 
during rough stage then about the location ( orbiting ) while refining 
the surface

so the user interface may be very different

i will look into the user interface also
you still have the coffeecup edm for testing?

regards
tomp tjtr33

On 12/26/16 23:40, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> In the m-codes you sent.
>M110 set onVal and offVal while I use edm.t.off and edm.t.on
>M112 set ipkval while I did not have
>M198 set AtMinTix and AtMaxTix while I do not have
>M199 set AdvLimVal and RetLimVal while I do not have
>
> Output signals:
>edm.t.Off
>edm.t.On
>edm.u.Ionization
>edm.u.Sparc
>
> Input signals:
>edm.u.Open
>edm.u.Seat
>edm.i
>edm.ionizationCnt
>edm.sparcCnt
>
> I think it would be good if it is possible to use more or less standard or at 
> least common *-code for EDM generator. Then I think standard signal names 
> must be defined for the *-code or how do they find the correct 
> signal-/pin-name?
>
>
> Suitable parameters for control of spindle have been figured out a long time 
> ago
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
>> interesting AGie stuff
>> please look at
>> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
>> for a bit more screenshots
>> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
>> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user
>> interface before forcing it onto all the users
>> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
>> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
>> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
>>
>> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
>> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted
>> to play on wedm anyway
>> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
>>
>> regards
>> TomP tjtr33
>> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
 ...
 please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
 controls!
 it seems there is 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

In the m-codes you sent.
  M110 set onVal and offVal while I use edm.t.off and edm.t.on
  M112 set ipkval while I did not have
  M198 set AtMinTix and AtMaxTix while I do not have
  M199 set AdvLimVal and RetLimVal while I do not have

Output signals:
  edm.t.Off
  edm.t.On
  edm.u.Ionization
  edm.u.Sparc

Input signals:
  edm.u.Open
  edm.u.Seat
  edm.i
  edm.ionizationCnt
  edm.sparcCnt

I think it would be good if it is possible to use more or less standard or at 
least common *-code for EDM generator. Then I think standard signal names must 
be defined for the *-code or how do they find the correct signal-/pin-name?


Suitable parameters for control of spindle have been figured out a long time ago
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html


On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> interesting AGie stuff
> please look at
> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
> for a bit more screenshots
> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user 
> interface before forcing it onto all the users
> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
> 
> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted 
> to play on wedm anyway
> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
> 
> regards
> TomP tjtr33
> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> ...
> >> please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
> >> controls!
> >> it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure /
> >> vacuum), and tank fill and dump
> > The flushing controls are coils I found inside the machine and I have not 
> > yet figured out how to use them. I added a button so I could turn them 
> > off/on, there are also a few LEDs with no use. I think lubrification should 
> > be started then machine is enabled?
> >
> > It is possible to adjust tOff/tOn time and a meter for gap voltage, there 
> > are few buttons left over from example. I spent a just a few hours on the 
> > user interface and are right now thinking about how it should look and more 
> > or less standard *-codes for parameters for generator, I also have found 
> > m-codes you sent earlier.
> >
> >
> > I have found Charmilles have a new standard user interface 
> > http://www.mfgnewsweb.com/archives/4/37497/Controls-dec12/New-Standard-User-Interface-for-Sinker-EDM-Machines.aspx
> >
> >
> >> the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to
> >> cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
> >> the 'Command' area is understandable
> >> regards, & merry Christmas
> >> tomp tjtr33
> >> On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes
> > for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source?
>  ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm
>  generator on/off/current/polarity
> >>> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking
> >>> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire
> >>> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database
> >>> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the
> >>> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good
> >>> start to read thru which codes are available.
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> >
> >
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> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

The user interface is a little bit blurred.

As is now I try separate out signals for EDM generator in separate *.hal file 
similar as for spindle.

Output signals:
  edm.t.Off
  edm.t.On
  edm.u.Ionization
  edm.u.Sparc

Input signals:
  edm.u.Open
  edm.u.Seat
  edm.i
  edm.ionizationCnt
  edm.sparcCnt


I guess arithmetic average since last time are useful for the analog values and 
number of counts since last time for the counters. Internally SI-units make 
sense. I am not totally sure what signals are useful and hope you or someone 
else could provide some help here?


On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> interesting AGie stuff
> please look at
> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
> for a bit more screenshots
> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user 
> interface before forcing it onto all the users
> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
> 
> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted 
> to play on wedm anyway
> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
> 
> regards
> TomP tjtr33
> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> ...
> >> please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
> >> controls!
> >> it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure /
> >> vacuum), and tank fill and dump
> > The flushing controls are coils I found inside the machine and I have not 
> > yet figured out how to use them. I added a button so I could turn them 
> > off/on, there are also a few LEDs with no use. I think lubrification should 
> > be started then machine is enabled?
> >
> > It is possible to adjust tOff/tOn time and a meter for gap voltage, there 
> > are few buttons left over from example. I spent a just a few hours on the 
> > user interface and are right now thinking about how it should look and more 
> > or less standard *-codes for parameters for generator, I also have found 
> > m-codes you sent earlier.
> >
> >
> > I have found Charmilles have a new standard user interface 
> > http://www.mfgnewsweb.com/archives/4/37497/Controls-dec12/New-Standard-User-Interface-for-Sinker-EDM-Machines.aspx
> >
> >
> >> the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to
> >> cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
> >> the 'Command' area is understandable
> >> regards, & merry Christmas
> >> tomp tjtr33
> >> On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes
> > for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source?
>  ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm
>  generator on/off/current/polarity
> >>> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking
> >>> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire
> >>> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database
> >>> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the
> >>> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good
> >>> start to read thru which codes are available.
> >>> --
> >>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors Access to Intel
> >>> Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. With one year of Intel
> >>> Parallel Studio XE. Training and support from Colfax. Order your
> >>> platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >>> ___ Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >> --
> >> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >> Training and support from Colfax.
> >> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, g-code

[TJoseph Powderly]

interesting AGie stuff
please look at
http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
for a bit more screenshots
remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user 
interface before forcing it onto all the users
GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
(the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )

i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted 
to play on wedm anyway
(eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)

regards
TomP tjtr33
On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>> ...
>> please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
>> controls!
>> it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure /
>> vacuum), and tank fill and dump
> The flushing controls are coils I found inside the machine and I have not yet 
> figured out how to use them. I added a button so I could turn them off/on, 
> there are also a few LEDs with no use. I think lubrification should be 
> started then machine is enabled?
>
> It is possible to adjust tOff/tOn time and a meter for gap voltage, there are 
> few buttons left over from example. I spent a just a few hours on the user 
> interface and are right now thinking about how it should look and more or 
> less standard *-codes for parameters for generator, I also have found m-codes 
> you sent earlier.
>
>
> I have found Charmilles have a new standard user interface 
> http://www.mfgnewsweb.com/archives/4/37497/Controls-dec12/New-Standard-User-Interface-for-Sinker-EDM-Machines.aspx
>
>
>> the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to
>> cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
>> the 'Command' area is understandable
>> regards, & merry Christmas
>> tomp tjtr33
>> On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes
> for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source?
 ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm
 generator on/off/current/polarity
>>> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking
>>> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire
>>> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database
>>> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the
>>> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good
>>> start to read thru which codes are available.
>>> --
>>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors Access to Intel
>>> Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. With one year of Intel
>>> Parallel Studio XE. Training and support from Colfax. Order your
>>> platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>>> ___ Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> --
>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
>> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
>> Training and support from Colfax.
>> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
Training and support from Colfax.
Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining, g-code

[TJoseph Powderly]

the edm gcodes are _usually_ fanuc like while the machines position
the mcodes are _not_ similar , these are machine design specific, there 
are similar functions but the codes will be different characters and 
different devices

especially the codes related to the edm power settings ( current voltage 
on off times )
usually these are encoded

for example 12 amperes of current
can be "1/2 channel' in Charmilles
or 4 in AGie ( 3 amps per transistor)
or 12 in my Heidenhain control ( i like to be literal )

for example a single surface finish
would be VDI in european machines
and Ra in Asian machines
and RMS in USA machines ( really silly to use average on a random surface )

what I'm saying is the units of measure vary from manufacturer to 
manufacturer
and the methods used to 'turn them on' varies ( not always gcode nor 
mcode, sometimes a mark in a table on screen!)
and some units of measures are invented by the manufacturer

making sense of the babel of technology CAN be done
in order to make my own technology
i would have to cut thousands of combinations to prove my values were 
true to some curve
i took years to discover that all edm technologies were really the same
just presented in each manufacturere's own specialized terminology
i formulated power curves ( joules ) for each material combination, 
polarity, open voltage
then compared mine to these manufacturers to see if the curves match
they do
so you can predict the overburn and surface finish
given the 'real meaning' of a manufacturer when they say
on time was 0.2a, off time was 22%, current was 1a+2.3
which really meant
on time 12.5uS, off time was 7uS, current was 6.5 amperes in dead short
These simple real data along with the no-load voltage can determine the 
joules of energy dispersed in a good discharge
the joules determine the diameter and depth of crater in a given material
the frequency ( derived from on & off times ) determine the ideal 
removal rate and wear rate (Vw & Ve )

the best technologies for easy understanding are from Handsvedt ( real 
units of measure )
the best explanations are from AGie ( tho older docs use Tau, the 
inverse of duty cycle )
the most convoluted, obfuscated (imo) is Mitsubishi ( everything is 
coded to some scale or lookup table )

so, the gcodes are simple when you dont cut
when cutting, they are connected to databases that are highly localized 
dialects

in the end,
knowing how one manufacturer turns on 1.2bar of flushing, or turns on 
hi-speed jump, or adjusts his anti-arc device
does you no good
understanding that he does control it is useful, the magic words he uses 
it only benifits him

dont work too hard on this database,
learning a few other machines is good experience, but the codes wont 
work on your machine
and wont really help a user to use your machine

its better to do LOTS of cutting
for example: you wont understand the code to increase the gain of the 
position control loop ( very common) untill you see it in action
 you wont understand the adjustment of offtime or 
duty cycle till it bites you with a big flash!

in years of teaching edm machines ( fanuc gcode to heidenhain 
conversational to asian fill-in-the-blank screen systems )
i saw operators who were unwilling to learn a new machine, but quickly 
learn my new machine in just hours or at most a couple days.
people is clever!

i just built linuxcnc-sim on this chromebook and will look at you screen 
controls
please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing 
controls!
it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure / 
vacuum), and tank fill and dump
the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to 
cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
the 'Command' area is understandable
regards, & merry Christmas
tomp tjtr33
On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes 
>>> for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source? 
>> ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm 
>> generator on/off/current/polarity 
> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking 
> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire 
> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database 
> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the 
> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good 
> start to read thru which codes are available. 
> --
>  
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors Access to Intel 
> Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. With one year of Intel 
> Parallel Studio XE. Training and support from Colfax. Order your 
> platform today.http://sdm.link/intel 
> ___ Emc-users mailing list 
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
>