date:20140525

Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS

2014-05-25 Thread John Lindsay via EV

Bromine and Chlorine are both from the same corrosive column on the periodic 
table so you want to avoid breathing the fumes.

The design of this battery avoids the production of fumes but I don't expect to 
see a vehicle application in the near future. 

John Lindsay
Currently in LA
Usually in Australia

 On 24 May 2014, at 12:37 am, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 On 21 May 2014 at 21:29, John Lindsay via EV wrote:
 
 ... zinc bromine flow battery ...
 
 I don't want to seem alarmist, but I remember reading about a Solar and 
 Electric 500 in the early 1990s, when James Worden of Solectria had to be 
 flown to hospital via med-evac after his car's zinc bromine battery 
 developed a leak.  They had to stop the race and clear the track.  Something 
 like a dozen other people also ended up going to hospital (though not by 
 chopper) for treatment. 
 
 That may be why they're not certified for mobile use.  Zinc bromine fumes 
 are wicked stuff.  You want to be VERY careful with those batteries.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Their CEO sez Don't buy the Fiat 500e EV

2014-05-25 Thread Martin WINLOW via EV

Sure, but what is crazy about this situation is that people *want* to buy the 
blessed thing, the reviews are all very good and the engineering faultless 
(apparently) and here is this chap Sergio Marchionne saying basically that he 
can't be bothered to work out a way to make money selling the 500e because its 
hurting his sales of ICEVs!  It really does sum up everything that has gone 
wrong with the auto industry in the last 20 years.  How the team who put the 
car together must feel about his comments I dread to think - probably all 
looking for a job a Tesla.  What a complete idiot.  MW


On 25 May 2014, at 04:28, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 My point is, and I am able to evaluate this having had a fairly close
 vantage point, no car can be made profitable without sufficient volume.
 And it is very easy to make a car that has almost no profit associated
 with it - ask GM.
 
 This is a compliance car - that means it is not going to carry its weight.
 You can call that stuff sunk cost, but it has its encumbrance on profits;
 the accounting facts are time shifted is all, it is foolish to discount
 them.
 
 If you want to look at past RD as sunk cost fine - then the 500e has to
 carry the current RD for the next models in the pipeline.  I doubt that it
 will, if they don't make the effort to crank up the volume.  I ask you then
 - where does the money for current RD come from.
 
 I have no interest in enticing you to defend what was probably a throwaway
 comment.  Sorry, I brought up an contrary view.
 
 
 
 
 On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:35 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote:
 
 I think you're missing my point.  I understand it's not free.  But if you
 were to apply Fiat's accounting to other situations, nobody should ever
 launch a new product or start a company because it's guaranteed to sell at
 a loss for the first few months/years after it hits production, regardless
 of how good the margins are otherwise.  Now, you may say Fiat will never
 sell enough 500e's to recoup their investment, which may very well be true,
 but grousing by the CEO about how he hopes people won't buy the car isn't
 going to help.
 
 Said another way:  once you've already sunk the RD cost, you don't factor
 that past expense it into whether or not it's profitable to continue making
 and selling the product you've already designed/tooled/etc.
 
 -Ben
 
 On May 24, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 So where does the money for NRE and RD come from?
 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Willie2 via EV


On 05/24/2014 09:48 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals.  I 
particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.  Reminds me of 
the world of Minority Report.  Lawrence Rhodes

An idea worthy of study.  I would like to see a few miles built to test. 
  However, there is a LOT more to a road structure than the surface.  
The glass surface could replace only a tiny fraction of the petroleum, 
portland cement, lime, etc that goes into making a road suitable for 
heavy traffic.  Most road failures begin with failure far below the 
surface.  Having a very durable surface will not prevent road failure.  
As Lee notes, a PV surface would greatly complicate inevitable road repair.

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[EVDL] EVLN: Kangoo Zoe EVs powered by Barfoots' farm-biomass-energy

2014-05-25 Thread brucedp5 via EV



Their anaerobic digester plant electricity recharges the EVs

http://www.hortweek.com/news/1295476/barfoots-turns-vegetable-waste-vehicle-power/
Barfoots turns vegetable waste into vehicle power
22 May 2014

Specialist vegetable supplier Barfoots has become the first company to use
crop waste to power its fleet of electric vehicles.

At its anaerobic digester plant in Chichester, West Sussex, waste such as
sweetcorn husks and vegetable out-grades are used to generate electricity to
power the premises and now also its green vehicles, actually coloured
yellow, across its sites in Hampshire, Sussex and the Isle of Wight.

Technical director and head of sustainability Keston Williams said: Green
energy production is central to our carbon reduction programme, as is
recapturing heat, recycling water and reducing our synthetic fertiliser
usage.

French car manufacturer Renault has been working with the company on the
project, and its Kangoo ZE van and Zoe ZE car will be the first to be
powered in this way. They have a range of around 100 miles.
[© Haymarket Media Group]
...
http://www.barfoots.co.uk/sustainability/caring-for-nature/biodigester/
Biodigester - The smart way to convert vegetable waste into electricity -
reducing our overall impact on the environment.
...
[video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZgZMfGkySw
Barfoots - Anaerobic Digestion in action   
Quentin Clark· Apr 6, 2014 
Barfoots of Botley turn 25,000 tonnes of green waste into renewable energy
each year with huge benefits to land fertility and the local community
through taking 5000 tractor journeys off the road. They won a Waitrose Way
award for this outstanding work.
]




For all EVLN posts use:
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http://fuelfix.com/blog/2014/05/17/when-it-comes-to-electric-plug-in-cars-men-and-women-are-two-different-sides-of-the-same-coin/
Men and women are on two different sides of the plugin coin

http://gas2.org/2014/05/24/hydra-gator-60k-amphibious-hybrid-golf-cart/
$60K Hydra Gator Amphibious 4WD Hybrid Golf Cart

http://www.carnewschina.com/2014/05/24/patent-applied-brilliance-jinbei-ms3-suv-for-the-china-car-market/
Brilliance Jinbei MS3 SUV for China market looks like the Acura MDX

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/2015-chevy-spark-ev-gets-brand-new-battery-keeps-same-driving-range.html
~$20k 2015 Spark EV, lighter pack yet same range r:85mi

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/25541623/electric-vehicle-owners-seeking-more-stations
HI condo plugin owners seek more public EVSE

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/10767178/Electric-cars-at-Taiwans-EV-show.html
Pihsiang A100 art-deco cocktail-cabinet shaped 2seat EV @Taiwan EV show

http://www.traveldailymedia.com/206296/kowloon-shangri-la-offers-electric-car-charging/
Kowloon Shangri-La-Hotel.hk offers electric car charging
+
EVLN: Severe Issues w/ fcv Claims  h2 Refueling Infrastructure Grant$


{brucedp.150m.com}



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Raw silicon is certainly less expensive, but refined silicon is refined by,
ahem, burning a LOT of petrochemicals. Not quite as energy-intensive as
aluminum smelting, I'd guess, but nearly so. That's why the embedded energy of
PV panels nearly always outweighs their lifetime solar energy capture. Have to
put them in the right places (meaning Arizona or New Mexico or North Africa,
not your roof) to make that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately.

-Bill

On May 24, 2014, at 19:49, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals. I
particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways. Reminds me
of the world of Minority Report. Lawrence Rhodes

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:09 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote:

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

This is a very good idea in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI

It's an interesting idea. But cost is going to be a *major* problem.

I wonder why they just don't put the PV panels in the noise walls,
barriers, and other vertical constructions alongside the highways. They
don't have to carry road traffic, and are much easier to erect and
repair without closing traffic.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
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[EVDL] EVLN: Severe Issues w/ fcv Claims h2 Refueling Infrastructure Grant$

2014-05-25 Thread brucedp5 via EV



http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/20/fuel-cell-vehicle-ghg-emissions/
Severe Issues with Fuel Cell Vehicle GHG Emissions Claims and Hydrogen
Refueling Infrastructure Grants
[2014/05/20]

Editor’s Note: one of our readers sent the following letter on May 19, 2014
to the person and office noted below. However, we thought it deserved as
much attention as possible and are thus publishing here on CleanTechnica as
well. We advise you to share widely.

Severe Issues with Fuel Cell Vehicle GHG Emissions Claims, Detailed Analysis
in Open Letter to California Energy Commission Proposing Urgent De-Funding
of Hydrogen Refueling Infrastructure Grants to FirstElement Fuel Inc. and
Others

F.A.O. And for circulation.

[To:] Rachel Grant Kiley
Grants and Loans Officer, California Energy Commission, 1516 Ninth Street,
MS-1 Sacramento, CA 95814

Re: PON-13-607 Hydrogen Refueling Infrastructure / Severe Issues with Fuel
Cell Vehicle GHG Emissions Claims.

Dear Rachel,

This is Julian Cox, thank you for taking a moment by telephone and,
crucially, for your assurances that funds have not as yet been awarded to
Hydrogen Refueling contractors per PON-13-607.

Thank you also for your kind attention and assistance in escalating the
matters summarized hereunder to parties responsible for determining on
PON-13-607.

Contrary to the impression given in numerous reports in the media, I
understand that it remains the case that ‘Funding of proposed projects
resulting from this solicitation [including the $27.6 million funding
proposed for FirstElement Fuel Inc.] is contingent upon the approval of
these projects at a publicly noticed Energy Commission Business Meeting and
execution of a grant agreement.’ – and that this meeting has not yet
occurred.

I would like to remark that this is out of the ordinary — that an applicant
hopeful of receiving significant grant funding should declare the foregone
conclusion of a publicly noticed Energy Commission Business Meeting by press
release in advance of receiving approval. This looks like a cross between
deeply questionable overconfidence and a worrying attempt to de-advertise
the availability of due process.

I would like to make a contribution to that process herewith.

I am writing to you as a result of what I am confident the Commission will
agree are material and severe discrepancies between the rationale for
awarding any funds to Hydrogen Refueling Infrastructure and the
independently verifiable facts that are brought to light in this document.

Background and Introduction.

Consistent with a career-long vocation focussed on the positive convergence
of economics, energy, transportation and care for the environment I have
taken a keen interest in developments and challenges of all kinds facing the
electrification of transport in California.

More recently I have observed some troubling conduct surrounding the auto
and fossil fuel industry promotion of Fuel Cell Vehicles. Primarily that of
a singular preoccupation with targeting aggressive comparative marketing
statements at the initially tiny market opportunity to displace other ZEVs
(Electric Vehicles) posing the least of the problems that ZEVs could
reasonably be expected to solve for consumers in terms of contributions to
vehicle emissions. This aggressive stance against Electric Vehicles seemed
to be accompanied by evasion of public transparency with respect to the
intrinsic link between hydrogen and its almost invariably natural gas
feedstock and the GHG emissions resulting from its conversion to hydrogen.
Accordingly I was moved to produce some basic research into like-for-like
energy and emissions equivalences to look into the issue more closely and
the closer I looked the more the facade unravelled.

One thing that was swiftly discovered besides very evidently bad science
gives probable cause as to why. That is to say that by far the most
influential scientific advisor in seemingly all matters leading to the
appearance of PON-13-607 would appear to have worn a variety of hats and
filled a chain of key roles surrounding this process. These roles include
academic advisor to the CEC on Hydrogen policy, the role of lead author of
the California Fuel Cell Partnership’s Hydrogen Roadmap and culminating in
the role of Co-President of the principal awardee. I refer of course to Dr
Tim Brown currently Co-President of FirstElement Fuel Inc.

Simply put, while the fact is incontrovertible that FirstElement Fuel Inc.,
stands to gain $27.6 million from public funds, under the most basic
forensic examination the academic advice received by the CEC to support that
outcome does not hold up.

Real-world well to wheel emissions calculations for Fuel Cell Vehicles
produce figures that are so entirely at odds with assumptions at the heart
of both public policy and broad consumer awareness that I am compelled to
bring this matter to attention.

This is a long document. Thank you sincerely in advance for your most
valuable time and attention, and for

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Their CEO sez Don't buy the Fiat 500e EV

2014-05-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV

For sure the economies of scale are not there yet.  If you are a buyer of
shares in companies - the prospect of profits is the main thing - or really
even better (if you are an RD driven company) - the prospects of high free
cash flow.


On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV
ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote:

 It seems way too soon to expect that it would be profitable yet.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 23, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Zeke Yewdall via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

  Does anyone have any idea how Nissan is doing profitwise, on the
 similarly
  priced Leaf?   They're selling really well around here (I see several a
 day
  just driving around, often several at the same time), and not just in
  compliance markets. I know the early prius wasn't a profit maker, but it
  turned around.. wondering if the leaf has turned around yet.
 
  Z
 
 
  On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 1:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 http://autos.aol.com/article/fiat-chryler-ceo-please-dont-buy-the-fiat-500e/
  Fiat-Chryler CEO: Please Don't Buy The Fiat 500e
  May 21, 2014
 
  [image
 
 
 http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/28007ffd7f2a724d2fc78386e2d1dac0/200147006/01-2013-fiat-500-turbo-review.jpg
  The 500e is costing Fiat $14,000 each time it sells (Fiat)
  ]
 
  Company loses $14,000 on ever electric vehicle
 
  Fiat-Chrysler's CEO had a strange request for electric vehicle shoppers
 on
  Wednesday: don't buy the all-electric Fiat 500e.
 
  While CEO Sergio Marchionne was speaking at a conference in Washington,
 he
  told the crowd he's tired of Chrysler-Fiat losing money, The Detroit
 News
  reported.
 
  I hope you don't buy it (the 500e), because every time I sell one, it
  costs
  me $14,000, he said to the audience at the Brookings Institution. I'm
  honest enough to tell you that.
 
  Marchionne said federal and state fuel efficiency mandates are forcing
 the
  automaker to build unprofitable cars, according to Reuters. A normal
 Fiat
  500 starts at almost $17,300, and the 500e starts at $32,650, before
  federal
  and state tax credits. There is no sales data to indicate how the 500e
 is
  performing.
  [© 2014 AOL]
  ...
 
 
 http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140521/AUTO0101/305210092/Marchionne-Fiat-loses-14K-every-electric-500
  Marchionne: Fiat loses $14K on every electric 500
  May 21, 2014
  ...
 
 
 http://news.boldride.com/2014/05/fiat-ceo-tells-customers-to-not-buy-one-of-his-cars-but-which-one/49355/
  'Fiat-Chrysler CEO would rather customers not buy the Fiat 500e EV'
  22 May 2014
  ...
  http://www.complex.com/rides/2014/05/fiat-ceo-sergio-marchionne-500e
  Fiat CEO: Don't Buy a Fiat 500e
  May 22, 2014
 
 
 
  For all EVLN posts use:
 
 
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=evlnsort=date
 
 
 
 http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/7424/20140514/teslas-elon-musk-200-gigafactories-will-be-needed.htm
  Musk sez '200 Gigafactories' Will Be Needed
 
 
 
 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3437155/batteries-sold-first-quarter-2014/
  Sales Of Hybrid And Electric Car Batteries Have Tripled In Three Years
 
 
 
 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/panasonic-signs-letter-of-intent-on-tesla-gigafactory/story-e6frg90f-1226914396206
  Panasonic signs 'letter of intent' on Tesla gigafactory
 
 
 
 http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5695442/my-house-is-my-gas-station-and-so-is-yours
  My house is my gas station (and so is yours)
 
 
 
 http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/05/adorable-elderly-couple-buy-matching-teslas/
  Adorable Couple Buy Matching HisHer Tesla-S EVs
  +
  EVLN: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring
 
 
  {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
  --
  View this message in context:
 
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  Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
  Nabble.com.
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: €749 Folkvänlig ebike offered starting in 2 Austrian IKEA stores

2014-05-25 Thread Denis Boutet via EV

Glad to hear that IKEA is being proactive. Indeed IKEA is very pro-active
toward the environment and social responsibility in general. I know this first
hand for having worked for them 16 years in QA that involved auditing
suppliers for IKEA demands towards those environmental demands put on
suppliers. Unfortunately in China it is or was at the time another story. The
demands were certainly put on suppliers BUT they played bonny certification
games and catch me if you see me game. Are you surprised? But IKEA could not
face not buying from China because the price differential was so big. But they
pushed I guess/hope after they closed down the purchasing office in Toronto for
it loosing all its purchasing to China...

As for me this is probably the best thing that ever happened to me. I left
working for material orientated business to health care services and have never
been so happy. I am osteopath now and work for myself.

Thanks

Le 2014-05-24 à 07:44, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org a écrit :

http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/ikea-offers-electric-bike-now-select-locations.html
IKEA now offers electric bike (in select locations)
Zachary Shahan May 20, 2014

[images / © IKEA
http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2014/05/ikea-electric-bike-1.jpg

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2014/05/ikea-electric-bike-2.jpg
]

IKEA is without a doubt one of the greenest large corporations on the
planet. It has some flaws, but it is miles (or kilometers) ahead of just
about every other large corporation that isn't specifically selling green
products. It plans to get 100% of the energy it uses in its stores and
buildings from clean energy by 2020 (and we're not talking about purchasing
credits, but actual production). It recently announced a wind farm near
Chicago that is projected to produce enough electricity that it could
theoretically power 165% of its US operations, or 18% of its global
operations. It also banned plastic bags back in 2008, long before that
became a trend, and it will grow more wood than it uses by 2020.

IKEA has also been a leader when it comes to selling clean technology. It
now offers solar panels in the UK and it started phasing out incandescent
light bulbs way back in 2010, replacing them with CFLs and LEDs. Now it's
adding an electric bike to its catalog.

Admittedly, the FOLKVÄNLIG electric bicycle IKEA is offering is only going
to be available in two Austrian stores to start, but let's hope it doesn't
take long for IKEA to bring it to more countries. With fast growth in
electric bicycle sales around the world, I'd assume that's the plan.

The cost of the FOLKVÄNLIG in the Vienna stores will be €749 (~$1,026). If
you're an IKEA Family member, then you get €100 off. Male and female
versions of the bike will be available. With a lightweight aluminum frame,
the bike will come in at just about 27 kg (60 lbs). With light pedaling, the
bike will have a range of 60 to 73 kilometers (37 to 45 miles). Sounds like
a good electric bike, and I think it looks attractive as well.

I'll be honest: because of its world-leading clean energy aims (and
installations), its installation of electric vehicle charging stations at
some locations (and presumably many more in the future), its cleantech
offerings, and its plan to grow as much wood as it uses by 2020, I'm a big
fan of IKEA. However, it does still sell a lot of non-green products,
unfortunately, and it does have one other very notable Achilles heal. As
Lloyd noted back in 2009, IKEA's stores are big box stores located out in
auto-dependent suburbs. In other words, it is quite difficult to get to an
IKEA without driving a car quite a distance. But perhaps if you buy an
electric bike at IKEA you will be inspired to also ride it out there next
time?

Want to see this electric bike at your local IKEA store? Be sure to let
IKEA know.
[© treehugger.com]
...
http://gas2.org/2014/05/15/the-ikea-folkvanlig-isnt-furniture-its-an-electric-bike/
The IKEA “FOLKVÄNLIG” Isn’t Furniture, It’s An Electric Bike
...
http://www.ebike-news.de/ikea-verkauft-eigenes-e-bike-namens-folkvaenlig/7278/
[In German] Ikea verkauft eigenes E-Bike namens Folkvänlig
Mai 12, 2014

For all EVLN posts use:
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http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/superfast-lightning-ls-218-electric-bike-to-be-revealed-soon-ar163592.html
Superfast Lightning LS-218 electric bike to be revealed soon

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/xinhua-news-agency/140523/1-killed-2-injured-azerbaijani-amusement-park-accident
1 killed, 2 injured in Azerbaijani amusement park e-car accident

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/05/16/14/japanese-e-vehicle-maker-expands-ph
Japanese EV maker Terra Motors has raised $10M to expand in Philippines

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring

2014-05-25 Thread Denis Boutet via EV

I think you mean it arrives in USA.  Here in Canada we have the iMiev selling 
for over a year now.

Take care,
Denis

Le 2014-05-23 à 10:30, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org a écrit :

 Thanks for your reference data.  We do have a milder climate in Seattle but
 the tradeoff is you need to run defrost - so heat and A/C are on.  And often
 the windshield wipers and lights.
 
 On the highway (up to 55-60mph) the Leaf does quite well.  It sucks in city
 driving, which is mostly what I do.  So it's quite possible the iMiev would
 do better for me.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Danpatgal via EV
 Sent: 23 May, 2014 7:20 AM
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives
 this spring
 
 In 2012 when I bought our iMiev, it was over $8k less than the Leaf (just
 before the S version came out), so that was a big difference for me.  Once
 the S Leaf was introduced, it was closer in price, but was stripped of some
 items the iMiev had (better regen, quick charge) that the iMiev still seemed
 like a better value.  For 2014 the iMiev is the clear price leader, unless
 you can survive with a two-seater / or absolutely need a five-seater.
 
 Peri - Winter and highway speeds do suck the iMiev's range.  I'm pretty
 spartan with heat, and don't generally go on the highway, so could always
 squeeze 50 miles in winter, but we also had a really bad winter (1-2 months
 with temps often around 10-20 F) in PA, so more mild climates (not sure
 where you are), would be easier to manage over 50 miles generally.  If
 you're doing mostly highway + cold in your Leaf to get 50-55, the iMiev is
 probably 10 less than that.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -
 Dan Gallagher
 http://www.evalbum.com/3854
 
 --
 View this message in context:
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2014-i-MiE
 V-most-affordable-EV-in-America-arrives-this-spring-tp4669612p4669615.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
 Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Bill,
I'd like to know where you heard that (incorrect) tidbit
about solar panels having more energy content than they generate.
Last I checked (about 15 years ago) it was information published
by the maker of my solar panels (Kyocera) showing that typical
energy payback time of complete solar panels (cells, glass and
alu frame together) was in the order of 1 year, but due to the
fact that I installed them in The Netherlands, my energy payback
time was closer to 2 years.
And this was of course well before the current solar improvements
of thin film or ribbon cells, which greatly reduce the amount of
silicon per cell, as well as the progress of efficiency which means
more energy returned per surface area.
So - I expect that solar panel energy payback is certainly under
1 year in favorable locations and it can be over 1 year in less
favorable locations. But no way that energy would not pay back
or the price of the panels would not offset the price of electricity
generated and it does - a couple times over even - including manhours
and other non-energy related cost additions.

But it is good to look at the source - where did you find this info?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
via EV
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:44 AM
To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.


Raw silicon is certainly less expensive, but refined silicon is refined
by, ahem, burning a LOT of petrochemicals.  Not quite as
energy-intensive as aluminum smelting, I'd guess, but nearly so. That's
why the embedded energy of PV panels nearly always outweighs their
lifetime solar energy capture. Have to put them in the right places
(meaning Arizona or New Mexico or North Africa, not your roof) to make
that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately. 


-Bill


 On May 24, 2014, at 19:49, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals.  I
particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.
Reminds me of the world of Minority Report.  Lawrence Rhodes 
 
 
 On Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:09 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net
wrote:
 
 
 
 
 Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 
 This is a very good idea in my opinion.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI
 
 It's an interesting idea. But cost is going to be a *major* problem.
 
 I wonder why they just don't put the PV panels in the noise walls, 
 barriers, and other vertical constructions alongside the highways.
They 
 don't have to carry road traffic, and are much easier to erect and 
 repair without closing traffic.
 
 -- 
 A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
 nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
 --
 Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring

2014-05-25 Thread tomw via EV

Dan,
Does the i-Miev have an Ah or Wh meter? Do you know how much energy per mile
the car uses at say 60 mph and 35 mph?  I like the small size and weight,
just wish it had a 6.6kW charger and 22kWh pack.



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Re: [EVDL] EVangel-About: Ford still pushing their pih, One smart new-Leaf driver

2014-05-25 Thread Gail Lucas via EV


Hi Bruce,

I am glad to hear you are out and about again, doing your EV things.  If by 
chance you do have to have the thyroid surgery and end up with a scar on 
your throat I will buy you a couple of turtle neck shirts.  There is makeup 
that will cover a lot of things and you might look good wearing an ascot. 
Unless you are planning to audition for a position as a Chippendale dancer 
you should not be concerned about this issue.


Gail

- Original Message - 
From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org

To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 10:08 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVangel-About: Ford still pushing their pih, One smart 
new-Leaf driver





% The roar of an old-EVangel %

[This post is inter-mingled with some of my personal issues as they are
affecting how-much EVangelizing I can still do after the recent health 
issue

cropped up]

One of the many-many doctors I have been paraded around to changed my 
heart
medications which after a couple of days (today), I felt pretty good 
(slept

better, had energy, and that bright-go-getter/Get 'er Done attitude).
Sort-of felt like the old-lion that still had a roar left in it.


It isn't everyday that I feel as good as I did today. I hope I feel this
good on the day of the eaasv.org Rally so I can enjoy it. It is always a
good time for all.

...
On a personal side note, the doctors at the hospital are mentioning that
they want to do surgery on my thyroid (its a little large on one side,
hardly noticeable). So before these surgeons begin carving this big turkey
(me), I want them to ensure I really need it done.

It isn't that I am vain, it is that though I am now old, I am not that 
hard
to look at and my large physical presence is like a walking billboard. I 
am

not a celebrity, but I do have a large visibility factor (all my life,
everyone has noticed Bruce). So, when I do my talking to the public about
EVs/plugins (EVangel work), I use that presence to help promote the
EV-cause.

I am concerned that if I end up with a zipper scar on my throat like
http://i56.tinypic.com/no5zly.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/create/1/0/t/q/A/-/Dana.jpg
that the public will not hear my EV-cause words but stare at the scar. 
That
would knock me out of the game (like being permanently benched). Which 
would

seem a shame if I still had the ability to promote the EV-cause. Well, we
will have to see how this ends up (I will hope for the best).


{brucedp.150m.com}


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[EVDL] alligator tears from compliance car providers

2014-05-25 Thread K O via EV

AS I recall, the benefit of compliance is 15% off taxes of ALL cars sold in CA. 
This may be wrong. But I sense an overall profit. THey could just rebadge 
Mitsubishi cars... Whining about how much they lose PER car masks the tax 
saving over all sales in the state. Why do I feel NO pity?

BTW: It's great seeing BParmater's posts again ! 

 
I don't shop where I can't charge. www.evalbum.com/1745




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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Martin WINLOW via EV

From the video and web page, the surface *is* the solar cell - attached to a 
solid concrete cellular base by 2 or more bolts.  So repair would be very 
simple and very quick - remove damaged, 'cells' bolt in new ones.  The PV and 
electronics might even be salvageable for re-use in a new cell.

This won't affect the issue of damaged or poorly installed hardcore (or 
whatever) bed.  MW


On 25 May 2014, at 11:12, Willie2 via EV wrote:

 On 05/24/2014 09:48 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals.  I 
 particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.  Reminds me 
 of the world of Minority Report.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
 An idea worthy of study.  I would like to see a few miles built to test.   
 However, there is a LOT more to a road structure than the surface.  The glass 
 surface could replace only a tiny fraction of the petroleum, portland cement, 
 lime, etc that goes into making a road suitable for heavy traffic.  Most road 
 failures begin with failure far below the surface.  Having a very durable 
 surface will not prevent road failure.  As Lee notes, a PV surface would 
 greatly complicate inevitable road repair.
 ___

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Re: [EVDL] big oil

2014-05-25 Thread Jan Steinman via EV

 On 24 May 2014 at 7:37, Electric Blue auto convertions  via EV wrote:
 
 Im making money just sitting on my ass.

Nobody ever really did that.

One of the great fallacies of all time is that little bits of coloured paper 
(or electric charges) get together in bank vaults and breed and multiply and 
somehow create something of value out of nothing.

Passive income is theft from future generations. What it makes is all due to 
either exploiting non-renewable natural resources, or due to accounting 
gimmicks. In today's flat economy, any money anyone makes from passive 
investment arguably comes more-or-less directly from quantitative easing, 
also known as government printing presses.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular, and indeed, I myself made 
money from passive investments before I divested a few years ago. But I get a 
little annoyed when people claim that they made money from doing nothing. 
That illusion appears to be so during a carefully selected time period, but the 
bill will have to be paid by someone, someday.

 We need to ask ourselves how many people are we willing to have our 
government kill to obtain cheap energy? And even if enough are killed, how long 
can the oil last with the US's prodigious use?. -- Pat Murphy
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV

 (
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Michael,
You are talking about financial payback.
The discussion was about energy payback:
How much energy was used to manufacture the panel (and transport and install it)
versus the amount of energy supplied by the panel. Not a financial calculation,
although the price of the panel is impacted by the amount of energy that went
into the manufacture of the panel.
Typically energy payback (more electric power generated from sun than the total 
energy
used for the creation of the panel) is several times shorter than financial 
payback,
due to non-energy related costs such as profit margins, man hours and so on.
Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



-Original Message-
From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sun 5/25/2014 9:59 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.
 
In the US anything one may about payback in so many years is purely
speculative and very geography dependent.

Short payback such as you mention come from energy that is taxed heavily -
so your payback is sort of a subsidy.

My own array will probably pay back in 8 years if the rates for electric
power rise.  I have a very low rate - one of the lowest here - just over
$0.09 a kWh.  In Rhode Island the rate is above $0.20.  And, most important
- I got a subsidy of 65% back on the cost of my installation.  That varies
from place to place and the utilities are always angling to charge more for
power  they sell, and pay less for power the buy.

Since we are the new font of gases for burning - utilities are converting
coal plants to gas and building more gas.  Electric power won't rise as one
would have predicted a few years ago.  Technology in drilling drives this.


On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

 Bill,
 I'd like to know where you heard that (incorrect) tidbit
 about solar panels having more energy content than they generate.
 Last I checked (about 15 years ago) it was information published
 by the maker of my solar panels (Kyocera) showing that typical
 energy payback time of complete solar panels (cells, glass and
 alu frame together) was in the order of 1 year, but due to the
 fact that I installed them in The Netherlands, my energy payback
 time was closer to 2 years.
 And this was of course well before the current solar improvements
 of thin film or ribbon cells, which greatly reduce the amount of
 silicon per cell, as well as the progress of efficiency which means
 more energy returned per surface area.
 So - I expect that solar panel energy payback is certainly under
 1 year in favorable locations and it can be over 1 year in less
 favorable locations. But no way that energy would not pay back
 or the price of the panels would not offset the price of electricity
 generated and it does - a couple times over even - including manhours
 and other non-energy related cost additions.

 But it is good to look at the source - where did you find this info?

 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
 via EV
 Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:44 AM
 To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.


 Raw silicon is certainly less expensive, but refined silicon is refined
 by, ahem, burning a LOT of petrochemicals.  Not quite as
 energy-intensive as aluminum smelting, I'd guess, but nearly so. That's
 why the embedded energy of PV panels nearly always outweighs their
 lifetime solar energy capture. Have to put them in the right places
 (meaning Arizona or New Mexico or North Africa, not your roof) to make
 that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately.


 -Bill


  On May 24, 2014, at 19:49, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
  I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals.  I
 particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.
 Reminds me of the world of Minority Report.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
 
  On Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:09 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 
  This is a very good idea in my opinion.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI
 
  It's an interesting idea. But cost is going to be a *major* problem.
 
  I wonder why they just don't put the PV panels in the noise walls,
  barriers, and other vertical constructions alongside the highways.
 They
  don't have to carry road traffic, and are much easier to erect and
  repair without closing traffic.
 
  --
  A designer knows he

Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Bill Woodcock via EV

On May 25, 2014, at 7:26 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
I'd like to know where you heard that (incorrect) tidbit
about solar panels having more energy content than they generate.

My assertion, more specifically, was that that was true for places that weren’t
essentially cloudless deserts. And you’re right, and I’m wrong.

I was misremembering the primary source of my information as David JC MacKay’s
_Sustainable Energy Without the Hot Air_, backed by two different friends in
different PV manufacturing companies who’ve told me about the energy costs of
refining silicon to the point at which you can make a PV panel that will pass
quality control. Which, if I’d been remembering correctly, would have made me
secure in my assertion. However it seems only the two anecdotal sources
support the high-embedded-cost notion, and they’re not quantifiable.

http://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_41.shtml

The energy yield ratio (the ratio of energy delivered by a system over its
lifetime, to the energy required to make it) of a roof-mounted, grid-connected
solar system in Central Northern Europe is 4, for a system with a lifetime of
20 years (Richards and Watt, 2007); and more than 7 in a sunnier spot such as
Australia. (An energy yield ratio bigger than one means that a system is A Good
Thing, energy-wise.) Wind turbines with a lifetime of 20 years have an energy
yield ratio of 80.”

Also:

http://sunlightsolar.com/img/PV-Embodied-Energy_Home-Power-mag.pdf pp. 34

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2006-06-16/energy-payback-roof-mounted-photovoltaic-cells

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0360132395000534

These various sources calculate the payback time in relatively normal environs
as being between 1.5 and 12 years. Which, given the number of variables being
hand-waved about, is a reasonable degree of variation, and in all cases less
than 20.

So, thank you for correcting me.

-Bill

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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV




Studies have shown having PV in cool climates is a bit more efficient than hot 
climates as the cool air improves how the PV works and extends working life.  
Lawrence Rhodes 


The last studies I saw (which I can try to dig up) showed PV energy payback at 
between 1 and 4 years -- so with a 25+ year lifespan, they should easily pay 
back, even in a climate like Seattle or Germany.


Now, if you put it on a highway, which they seem to tear up and resurface 
every 3 or 4 years around here to add lanes or just have fun with orange 
cones, it doesn't make as much sense.  I really question the sense of putting 
solar where semi trucks and snowplows and studded tires and chains have a 
chance to tear it up... even concrete wears down pretty bad after 10+ years of 
that.  Much better in my mind to put it above the highway as a canopy.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Severe Issues w/ fcv Claims h2 Refueling Infrastructure Grant$

2014-05-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


brucedp5 via EV wrote:
Here is the summary section from this very long and detailed analysis, 
for those that don't have time to wade through it all:


 There is no inherent emissions advantage in Fuel Cell Vehicle
 technology.

 EVs are inherently a more efficient and economical per mile usage of
 natural gas than FCVs.

 There are far better and easier ways to make natural gas powered
 vehicles than FCVs.

 There are far more effective ways for $200M USD to deliver emissions
 reductions.

 There are deep concerns to be addressed in the area of false
 marketing surrounding FCVs.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV

A roof mounted PV system has a mitigating effect on the cooling needs of
the building. The PV maybe less efficient, but it needs to do less work.
I have no idea how that really balances out.

On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote:

Studies have shown having PV in cool climates is a bit more efficient than
hot climates as the cool air improves how the PV works and extends working
life. Lawrence Rhodes

The last studies I saw (which I can try to dig up) showed PV energy
payback at between 1 and 4 years -- so with a 25+ year lifespan, they
should easily pay back, even in a climate like Seattle or Germany.

Now, if you put it on a highway, which they seem to tear up and resurface
every 3 or 4 years around here to add lanes or just have fun with orange
cones, it doesn't make as much sense. I really question the sense of
putting solar where semi trucks and snowplows and studded tires and chains
have a chance to tear it up... even concrete wears down pretty bad after
10+ years of that. Much better in my mind to put it above the highway as a
canopy.

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV

, not your roof) to make
that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately.

-Bill

On May 24, 2014, at 19:49, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals. I
particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.
Reminds me of the world of Minority Report. Lawrence Rhodes

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:09 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net
wrote:

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

This is a very good idea in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI

It's an interesting idea. But cost is going to be a *major* problem.

I wonder why they just don't put the PV panels in the noise walls,
barriers, and other vertical constructions alongside the highways.
They
don't have to carry road traffic, and are much easier to erect and
repair without closing traffic.

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Michael E. Ross
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With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A.
Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

2014-05-25 Thread John Lindsay via EV

...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
via EV
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:44 AM
To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

Raw silicon is certainly less expensive, but refined silicon is refined
by, ahem, burning a LOT of petrochemicals. Not quite as
energy-intensive as aluminum smelting, I'd guess, but nearly so. That's
why the embedded energy of PV panels nearly always outweighs their
lifetime solar energy capture. Have to put them in the right places
(meaning Arizona or New Mexico or North Africa, not your roof) to make
that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately.