If the total cost of the system before subsidies is less than the lifetime cost 
of the electricity generated then total energy must have been recovered because 
it must have cost less than the total installed cost. 

If not then you are stuck with a hard problem. 

This argument is standard operating procedure for the fossil fuel electricity 
industry. They hate solar and wind because it messes with their profits.

Think how much steel and concrete go into making a power station. 

John Lindsay

> On 25 May 2014, at 12:33 pm, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Thank you Cor,
> 
> This is just me experimenting with the ideas....
> 
> Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up
> the totla cost?
> 
> I guess can see leaving out profit (which is sort an excess since everyone
> involved already put food on the table, got medical care, and so on. The
> people drawing the profit may not have undertaken the PV at all without the
> promise of profit, so maybe that too is part of the cost - energy wise, but
> it isn't clearly so); but the energy to transport the panels afterward, to
> market them, to shuffle salesmen and installers around, the energy cost of
> the inverters, disconnects wiring, lights and heating in the installers
> physical plant.  Wouldn't all these be foregone if the panels were never
> made?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>wrote:
> 
>> Michael,
>> You are talking about financial payback.
>> The discussion was about energy payback:
>> How much energy was used to manufacture the panel (and transport and
>> install it)
>> versus the amount of energy supplied by the panel. Not a financial
>> calculation,
>> although the price of the panel is impacted by the amount of energy that
>> went
>> into the manufacture of the panel.
>> Typically energy payback (more electric power generated from sun than the
>> total energy
>> used for the creation of the panel) is several times shorter than
>> financial payback,
>> due to non-energy related costs such as profit margins, man hours and so
>> on.
>> Hope this clarifies,
>> 
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sun 5/25/2014 9:59 AM
>> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.
>> 
>> In the US anything one may about payback in so many years is purely
>> speculative and very geography dependent.
>> 
>> Short payback such as you mention come from energy that is taxed heavily -
>> so your payback is sort of a subsidy.
>> 
>> My own array will probably pay back in 8 years if the rates for electric
>> power rise.  I have a very low rate - one of the lowest here - just over
>> $0.09 a kWh.  In Rhode Island the rate is above $0.20.  And, most important
>> - I got a subsidy of 65% back on the cost of my installation.  That varies
>> from place to place and the utilities are always angling to charge more for
>> power  they sell, and pay less for power the buy.
>> 
>> Since we are the new font of gases for burning - utilities are converting
>> coal plants to gas and building more gas.  Electric power won't rise as one
>> would have predicted a few years ago.  Technology in drilling drives this.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Cor van de Water via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Bill,
>>> I'd like to know where you heard that (incorrect) tidbit
>>> about solar panels having more energy content than they generate.
>>> Last I checked (about 15 years ago) it was information published
>>> by the maker of my solar panels (Kyocera) showing that typical
>>> energy payback time of complete solar panels (cells, glass and
>>> alu frame together) was in the order of 1 year, but due to the
>>> fact that I installed them in The Netherlands, my energy payback
>>> time was closer to 2 years.
>>> And this was of course well before the current solar improvements
>>> of thin film or ribbon cells, which greatly reduce the amount of
>>> silicon per cell, as well as the progress of efficiency which means
>>> more energy returned per surface area.
>>> So - I expect that solar panel energy payback is certainly under
>>> 1 year in favorable locations and it can be over 1 year in less
>>> favorable locations. But no way that energy would not pay back
>>> or the price of the panels would not offset the price of electricity
>>> generated and it does - a couple times over even - including manhours
>>> and other non-energy related cost additions.
>>> 
>>> But it is good to look at the source - where did you find this info?
>>> 
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Chief Scientist
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
>>> via EV
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:44 AM
>>> To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Raw silicon is certainly less expensive, but refined silicon is refined
>>> by, ahem, burning a LOT of petrochemicals.  Not quite as
>>> energy-intensive as aluminum smelting, I'd guess, but nearly so. That's
>>> why the embedded energy of PV panels nearly always outweighs their
>>> lifetime solar energy capture. Have to put them in the right places
>>> (meaning Arizona or New Mexico or North Africa, not your roof) to make
>>> that equation work out favorably. Unfortunately.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                -Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 19:49, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV"
>>>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I think the reasoning is silicon is cheaper than petrochemicals.  I
>>> particularly like the idea of programmable and sensing roadways.
>>> Reminds me of the world of Minority Report.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:09 PM, Lee Hart <leeah...@earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a very good idea in my opinion.
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's an interesting idea. But cost is going to be a *major* problem.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder why they just don't put the PV panels in the noise walls,
>>>>> barriers, and other vertical constructions alongside the highways.
>>> They
>>>>> don't have to carry road traffic, and are much easier to erect and
>>>>> repair without closing traffic.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
>>>>> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>>>>>         -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
>>>>> --
>>>>> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
>> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
>> *Dalai Lama *
>> 
>> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>> With your one wild and precious life?
>> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>> 
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>> Thomas A. Edison<
>> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>> 
>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>> *Warren Buffet*
>> 
>> Michael E. Ross
>> (919) 550-2430 Land
>> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
>> Phone
>> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>> 
>> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
>> <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
> 
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
> 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. 
> Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
> 
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
> 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
> 
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
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> 
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