Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits
it a requirement and the environment be damned by the associated increase in CO2 output, makes this all the more painful. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 8:23 AM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits Thank you for falsely stating stating my interest and what I care about. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 28, 2014, at 12:05 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Bill, Mark has no interest whether it is simpler to use Hydrogen or not. He even does not care that the use of Hydrogen will increase the amount of CO2 being burned (so, it is a disaster for the environment). He is promoting Hydrogen - that is all. Look up his profile and you will understand. I urge all members of this forum to once again adhere to the earlier decision to avoid Hydrogen as a topic, because it is explosive. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock via EV Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:58 AM To: Mark Abramowitz Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits On Jul 27, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com wrote: I've seen an animation of such a device for natural gas dispensing, and am told it could just as easily be done for hydrogen. How does that address what I said? I've seen animations of the Incredible Hulk, that doesn't support the proposition that it could just as easily be done for X. But we know that whatever is being talked about... trip to the moon, world peace, cold fusion... you will be certain that it is simpler, cheaper, and easier than hydrogen. So, prove me wrong. What is it about hydrogen that you think is easier to move than electrons? -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ attachments/20140727/a966 07fb/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/add80916/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits
Because then Mark can't claim that he has zero-emissions vehicles, so he wants to convert to H2 (and lose a significant part of the energy) and that inefficient H2 will then qualify for the highest subsidies by California as zero emissions. All the while *increasing* the CO2 emissions, compared to using the natural gas directly in the vehicle (which would not fit the arbitrary requirement of zero emissions but which would bring the total system emissions down significantly - without excessive costs for a H2 infrastructure... *that* is what I hinted at earlier and that Mark does not want to hear... He even continues to claim that his solution is better, like a good lobbyist but without even hinting at *how* that solution is better. The only thing I have seen till now is the claim zero emissions. If you read the previous few sentences again, you'll understand what a canard that claim is in this respect. BTW, In most European countries it is normal to find Natural gas (called LPG) at most gas stations, as around 10% of all vehicles run on that fuel, mostly the highest-mileage vehicles as the fuel is very cheap but the installation in the car is taxed the highest (yearly tax) so you only come out ahead if you drive enough (say, more than 30,000 a year) while between 10-30k mi per year you would usually be better off with Diesel as fuel and below 10k mi per year the low vehicle tax and high fuel tax on regular gas (petrol) will make that the best option. This is for passenger vehicles - semi trucks always use Diesel. Since natural gas is not always available in all regions and countries, and because it is easy - often required - to run occasionally on regular gas to protect the engine, the installation is always dual-tank: a gas cylinder plus a liquid petrol tank. The gas cylinder typically holds LPG enough for about 200 miles range, sometimes less. That is another reason to have an additional petrol tank. If the gas cylinder holds 30 liters of liquefied gas and the price is around 0.50 Euros per liter, then this is indeed $20 for a fill up, but understand that this is maybe half or one third the price per mile of regular petrol. 100 Euro gives you approx a full 60-liter (15 gal) tank of petrol, since the avg price is around 1.70 Euro/l which is almost $9 per gal. I am afraid that if we remove the various subsidies from H2 and look at its cost (which has not been published by anyone that I am aware of) then the European fuel prices will seem cheap compared to H2. Especially if you know that there is also compressed gas available in USA - there are a few isolated dedicated filling stations, usually near airports, and there is the home filling station using a compressor and your good old natural gas pipeline (not available in all homes, but present in the majority). Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Marion Hakanson via EV Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 10:53 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits I have a cousin who lives in Italy. They own a small Fiat van which runs on both methane (compressed) and regular gasoline; Apparently it costs the equivalent of $20 to fill the methane tank, and about $100 to fill the gas tank (which they'll do if they're in the hinterlands and can't find a methane station). If most H2 comes from methane (natural gas), why not just burn the methane directly, instead of converting it multiple times (and losing something at every step), so you can feed it to a fuel cell? Regards, Marion On 07/28/14 10:30 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote: https://greet.es.anl.gov/ I have looked at it in the past. One thing to look at when someone reports results of the model: Everything is configurable in the model. Make sure the assumptions about generation and usage are well understood (either left to defaults or well documented). It is very easy to sway the outcome with changes in assumptions. In many cases, the changes can be realistic, but they need to be vetted. For example, running the model for Idaho, the electrical grid is more than 50% renewable and less than 30% coal. Those assumptions for New York would be very wrong. I believe the defaults are national averages. Mike On July 28, 2014 7:33:57 PM MDT, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: All data I have seen till now shows that emissions go up with the indroduction of H2, due to the low efficiency well-to-wheels of creating H2. So, it is considered not just a very difficult energy carrier, but also inefficient, besides being very costly in roll out. If you have data to the contrary, I am interested in vetting it (since it is easy to mislead with cherry-picked info). My mind is open, I
[EVDL] EVLN: Brouhaha Bike e-Trailers many uses for strain-free haulage
'Ditch the car even when you have heavy gear to haul'
http://www.gizmag.com/brouhaha-modular-electric-bike-trailer/33052/
Modular, electric bike trailer provides strain-free haulage
By C.C. Weiss July 22, 2014
[images
http://www.gizmag.com/brouhaha-modular-electric-bike-trailer/33052/pictures#12
Gallery - The Rollout Trailer helps motivated cyclists to ditch the car even
when they have heavy gear to haul
]
The Brouhaha Bike Trailer from Wisconsin-based Rollout Self-Propelled
Trailers puts a bit of horsepower behind your two-wheeler. Unlike on some
other electric-powered bike trailers, that horsepower doesn't make pedaling
any easier; it simply adjusts for the weight of the load so that the cyclist
can pedal like normal while carrying everything from a full tailgating
set-up to a stand-up paddleboard.
There is already a sizable market of electric cargo bikes and electric bike
trailers. Models like the Ridekick are designed to augment pedaling with
electric power, providing quicker speeds and less effort.
The Brouhaha is a different kind of e-trailer with a different goal in mind.
When he began tinkering with the design several years ago, Brian Bartel
sought to build a trailer that could help cyclists replace their cars when
hauling all types of large cargo. He wasn't thinking just a plastic bag or
two of groceries, but a month's worth of stock for a family of four. He
built the trailer to exemplify the motto, If you can carry it on top of
your car, you can tow it with your bicycle and the Brouhaha.
In designing the Brouhaha, Bartel wanted to be sure not to interrupt the
exercise of pedaling – that's the part of biking that's good for you, after
all. He went about hacking an existing aftermarket e-bike kit, replacing the
throttle with a proprietary controller and adding a force sensor to monitor
the towing force continually so the controller can adjust motor output as
necessary to maintain zero towing force. So the trailer essentially
propels itself while the cyclist pedals like normal.
The Brouhaha trailer is designed to be hitched to any bike. The cyclist
simply turns it on and starts pedaling. To ensure the trailer doesn't start
motoring before the cyclist is ready, the motor kicks in only after the
wheels have spun through one full rotation. The trailer's braking also
activates when the cyclist brakes the bike.
A combination of 36-volt (9 Ah or 12 Ah options) sealed lead acid battery
and 500-watt motor give the Brouhaha trailer the muscle for some pretty
impressive haulage. Rollout estimates that the motor system can handle up to
400 lb (181 kg) of gross trailer weight.
Rollout plans to make the trailer modular so that users can quickly swap out
purpose-built racks and extensions for things like canoes, children and
groceries. During beta testing, Brian's wife even towed a party set-up of
beer, ice, meat, a table and four chairs to a Green Bay Packers game, in a
twist on tailgating that demands new terminology – trailer barring?
The Brouhaha is but a prototype for now, but Rollout is running a
Kickstarter campaign to raise US$80,000 to polish the hardware and software,
smooth out performance and launch a production-ready model. The campaign
offers a variety of price points, from a $1,200 three-month rental, to used
prototypes starting at $2,500, and a $5,000 first-run production model.
If the campaign is successful, Rollout plans to move toward production this
Wisconsin winter, bringing the Brouhaha to market in time for summer 2015.
It also advertises customized builds on its website.
[© gizmag.com]
...
http://rollouttrailers.com/trailer-apps/
Brouhaha Bicycle Trailer - Rollout Trailers Apps:
_ Bicycle Tailgate Party Enabler
_ Grocery Getter
_ Kayak Carrier
_ Farm Cart
_ Rocket Ship Kid Carrier
_ Standup Paddleboard Carrier
_ Canoe Carrier
_ Garbage Hauler
_ Naughty Child Carrier
_ Pulled Rickshaw
_ Well-Behaved Child Carrier
_ Bicycle Carrier
'You’ll be able to keep up with the other bikes while hauling a couch!'
For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=evlnsort=date
http://6abc.com/news/police-delivery-people-targeted-for-electric-bikes/205397/
Philadelphia restaurant delivery people robbed for Electric-bikes
http://beaconnews.ca/blog/2014/07/electric-racing-motorcycle-future-motor-sports/
CalgaryU Team Zeus Club needs $25k to build racing e-motorcycle
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/21/energica-ego-superbike-ride-along/12791387/
Riding electric superbike is quietly exhilarating
http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014/7/22/electric-vehicle-charging-point-scheme-changed/53067/
British Gas withdrawing their free charge point offer
http://www.am-online.com/news/2014/7/22/subsidy-for-home-ev-charging-points-is-capped/36483/
+
EVLN: 2015 VW e-Golf EV vs Golf TDI ice, Back-To-Back Test Drive
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View this message in context:
[EVDL] EVLN: 2015 VW e-Golf EV vs Golf TDI ice, Back-To-Back Test Drive
% Writer woding is ice-slanted: 'right pick for everyone' % http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093432_2015-volkswagen-e-golf-vs-golf-tdi-back-to-back-test-drive 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf Vs. Golf TDI: Back-To-Back Test Drive By Bengt Halvorson Jul 22, 2014 [images http://www.greencarreports.com/pictures/1093432_2015-volkswagen-e-golf-vs-golf-tdi-back-to-back-test-drive_gallery-1 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf Vs. Golf TDI: Back-To-Back Test Drive, Gallery 1 ] With the introduction of the 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf late this year, VW will be the only automaker to offer (in the U.S.) both diesel [ice] and all-electric versions of the same model in the U.S. While we expected to plan a back-to-back drive of these two models at some point, we didn’t expect it to come so soon. At a ride-and-drive event called Drive Revolution, organized in part by yours truly this past week, we convinced Volkswagen to bring both models -- both as four-door hatchbacks, both the same color. Although the e-Golf doesn’t arrive in U.S. spec until November or so, and our test car was Euro-spec, aside from headlamps, taillamps, trim pieces, and of course some unseen elements like airbags, the two models were very close in appearance and equipment. Subjectively, how does the e-Golf stack up against the Golf TDI [ice]? A smoother, stronger new diesel, vs. an all-new all-electric [e-Golf] In the 2015 Volkswagen Golf TDI, the latest EA288 turbo-diesel four-cylinder engine, which has a completely new design and all-new parts throughout, makes 150 horsepower and 236 pound-feet of torque; it feels a little quicker than before, but it’s the major advances in refinement and drivability that will leave anyone who’s driven previous VW diesel products very impressed. This latest model has an absolute minimum of clatter when cold, settles to a quiet purr when hot, and lacks the turbo lag that its predecessor had. And it’s not just smoother, but quicker-revving, as we appreciated with the six-speed manual transmission. Meanwhile, in our drive of the e-Golf, we found a relatively conservatively tuned electric vehicle -- albeit one with some of the best seat comfort, likely the quietest interior, and perhaps the most nimble, reassuring handling. As with many electric vehicles, the placement of the battery pack brings the weight distribution farther back more onto the rear wheels. TDI is heavier -- and heavier-driving Curb weight is actually slightly heavier for the TDI (around 3,125 pounds, versus just below 3,100 for the e-Golf), and there’s no mistaking that the e-Golf ended up with the better weight distribution. Whiile the TDI can feel rather nose-heavy when you push it harder into tight corners, the lower and more rearward center of mass of the e-Golf feels more nimble and more at ease in quick changes of direction. Somehow, the electric power steering managed to transmit a little more feel from the road in the e-Golf, too. As VW notes, the new MQB platform for both of these models adds about two inches to overall length and a half inch to width. The front wheels sit farther forward than the previous Mk6 Golf, leading to the feeling that you’re both sitting farther back, toward the midpoint of the car. As well, the seating position feels somewhat higher relative to the beltline (even if it isn’t), allowing better outward visibility. e-Golf more efficient -- but not the right pick for everyone Kilowatt for kilowatt, there’s no disputing that the e-Golf is the more efficient of these two. But it all comes down to this: With the e-Golf’s most efficient (Eco+) mode cutting you off at 59 mph, and the middle Eco mode trying to keep you to a 72-mph top speed (unless you floor it), the electric Golf’s sweet spot is at city speeds, and not at all on the freeway. Meanwhile, the Golf TDI feels like it’s just hitting its stride at 40 mph -- and we’d venture to say that it’s probably still returning close to its peak mileage at 55 or 60 mph -- making it a great pick for those who must commute longer distances, on the Interstates, tollways, and freeways...or even higher-speed exurb boulevards like what you have in the outer reaches of many U.S. metro areas. For those who typically make shorter trips, at city speeds, often in near gridlock, the e-Golf is the one to have. It feels far more mature than zippy small electric cars like the Chevrolet Spark EV and Fiat 500E, has less cabin noise than the Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus Electric, and offers a somewhat sportier feel, fundamentally, than the comfortable yet van-like Mercedes B-Class Electric Drive. TDI for speed and distance, e-Golf for absolute efficiency But back to weighing these two Golfs, apples to apples, the Golf TDI remains the pick for those who have longer distances to cover, while the e-Golf is something to consider if you’re already shopping electric vehicles and can meet their charging and range requirements. Diesel fuel, on the other hand, is available pretty much everywhere in the
Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits
Dennis Miles via EV wrote: Because, Marion, the fool cell gives the least pollution at the vehicle. (And the manufacturers want the carbon credits, and Is, I have been told, the refining or conversion, of methane to hydrogen, is done in an unregulated location, not in the motor vehicle.) Exactly. Regulations can instigate changes. But exactly *how* the regulations get written is vitally important in what kinds of changes get implemented. Years ago, gas water heaters had a standing pilot light. The pilot used a small amount of gas, but the heat from the pilot was still going up the flue, and still heating the water. The pilot had other side benefits, like keeping the burner dry and free of bugs and mice, improving safety, and lowering cost. The government made it clear that they were going to implement efficiency standards, with or without industry's help. So the water heater manufacturers did a clever thing. They WROTE the regulations for the government. The regulations eliminated the standing pilot light, and mandated a more complex and expensive electronic ignition system. They also carefully made sure that the energy used by the ignition system was NOT counted when calculating the efficiency of the water heater. They also reduced the expected life of a water heater to HALF of what it had formerly been (20 years was reduced to 10 years typical). The result was that a) water heaters cost more, b) lasted a shorter time, and c) could advertise higher efficiency, but not deliver it if you counted the energy used by the new ignition system and blowers. These measure had the effect of DOUBLING the profit on water heaters, which up until then had been a stagnant low-profit industry. The auto companies are equally clever. I think they have figured out that if they stop fighting CARB, and instead *write* the regulations, they can rig the standards to favor themselves, and put other solutions (like EVs) at a competitive disadvantage. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for 7 credits
On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:44 AM, Martin WINLOW m...@winlow.co.uk wrote: It is 'ignorant' because it defies logic or, more likely, any empirical analysis of reality. I'm not disagreeing, but that's the market. And since the goal is to sell cars, it would also defy logic to ignore it. If an automaker decided not to sell red cars, it might defy logic for someone to go elsewhere and buy a less optimal car, but guess what? (And let's not forget that everyone gas different needs) I think Musk has nailed it. Just because we do things a certain way now does not automatically imply that they should be done that way in the future (or for the rest of time), especially so when the way things are being done now are so financially (let alone, morally) wrong! Sure. I won't (in deference to the mod's request to stay OT) be drawn on the H2 point you made but, really, I don't need to comment, do I? MW On 27 Jul 2014, at 13:44, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: On Jul 27, 2014, at 12:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: % ? Setting the bar higher than what fcvs can do ? % [ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-CEO-Sez-A-More-Expensive-500mi-EV-could-be-quite-soon-tp4670504.html EVLN: Tesla CEO Sez A More Expensive 500mi EV 'could be quite soon' ] I thought why would Tesla make a 500 mi EV? Tesla is smart enough to ignore the ignorant media's insanity for more and more range. I thought , there has to be a business motivation for even mentioning it. I don't think that it's the ignorant media's insanity for more and more range. More like *the buyer's* demand for more range and faster charging times, equivalent to an ICE. Range is one of the barriers to integrating EVs of all types into the fleet. Even on this list, it's an issue. This was a similar issue for FCEVs. Why do you think tank pressures increased? It certainly wasn't cheaper. Or requirements for fueling times to get station co- funding? Range and fueling time are two things that make the consumer think they are getting something less when purchasing an EV of any type. Musk's focus is laser-like here. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140728/01e62930/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] BMW 24kw DC fast charger
At 6500 dollars cheap? I don't know. It weighs 100 pounds and doesn't seem to be transportable. A PFC 75 is less money but might only eek out 12 to 15 or so KW but only weighs 33 pounds. Much more transportable and works with a J1772 plug. However the BMW is CCS. More confusion. If someone more versed could comment I'd like some other view on this technology which is about half as powerful as Chademo but seems to be twice as powerful as J1772 or am I not doing my math correctly? Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/82c79810/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Why EVs are awesome
And if the ICE and EV they are similar, then why keep on burning all that fossil fuel (lots with blood on it, and sending our $$$ overseas) and ruining the air and the environment when you could actually be part of the clean, renewable energy future just as easily? Bob On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Surely you don't mean only maintenance. Isn't there even a little fuel in that? My Scion xB has used up about $18000 in gasoline if I call it an average of $3 / gallon times 6000 gallons. The only repair that is ICE related is $250. I have maybe 35 oil changes in it at $25 (I do them myself), call it $30 to cover air filters and stuff - $1050. I won't add in the tires and brakes, they are in ICE and EV. Never tallied the fuel cost before - that is frightening. At a purchase cost of $11,900 with 9000 miles on the clock I think you don't get a much less expensive ICE. I guess the power for an EV might be a quarter of the gas cost. If I hypothesized an xB EV then I would have saved $13500. Still, there are no EVs comparable that would compete with the xB on economy and utility. I have a deal at work where I could get a Leaf for dealer cost, maybe $23K. That is in the neighborhood, but not as flexible as the xB due to current charging options. Still it is getting close. Here is wishing for dependable used leafs that will go 200K+ miles. If I paid show room prices for an xB the Leaf then looks nice. But, I would be more likely to get an used xB for maybe $8K. On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I just looked at the total maintenance costs for my ICE vehicle (Honda Odyssey 2000) and it is just under $20,000. Grant it, I take it on long trips which I can't do with the Leaf but from a cost perspective, even if I need to replace the battery every 6-7 years in my Leaf (and it will likely be 10-12 years), I would come out probably about half that cost. There are just too many things to go wrong with ICE vehicles. So far I've spent $21 on the Leaf, for a tire repair. And the $20K doesn't include fuel! Peri ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140728/0936e584/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/dce9febb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EV safety
Fool proof systems do not take in the ingenuity of fools -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/e2d09610/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Why EVs are awesome
(919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/0d325424/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Middle Leaf Battery Terminal
Does anyone know what amperage the middle terminal of a Leaf battery can handle for balancing? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Why EVs are awesome
On 07/29/2014 09:29 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: It is just now, and with the availability of the Leaf at dealer cost, that there any reason at all for me to consider it. The Leaf doesn't serve my need for what is essentially a small truck, the early model xB; which with roof racks allows me to bring home 16 foot lumber from the building supply store, or pack the rear compartment (no seats in there) with incredible amounts of crap. I initially installed trailer hitch receivers on both my Leaf and Tesla in order to use bicycle carriers. However, I semi-quickly started pulling trailers with both. About 10', maybe 12' stuff will fit inside of both. Small numbers of pipe and lumber. The Leaf would hold about 12-14 banana boxes, the Tesla, 17-20. I used the Leaf to trailer bagged fertilizer about ten miles, about 1500 pounds per trip. It would have made 20 mile or more round trips. My Leaf would only be worth $11k-$14k now if I still owned it. However, since Nissan failed to honor my battery warranty, I can not personally recommend a Leaf. I sold the Leaf to a neighbor and I continue to encourage him to pressure Nissan to fix the battery. However, he is happy with ~50 mile range. And, I believe we recently had a report of high mileage Volts going for ~$11k with fresh batteries. I think the time has come for almost anyone to be driving an EV. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] BMW 24kw DC fast charger
$0.27/W is cheap for power electronics, they are practically giving it away. It also comes in a NEMA 54 enclosure, has 1772 interface, is probably isolated and UL listed so comparing it to PFC75 ($0.25W) is not really fair. The 24kW may come from a desire to stay below the demand charge that usually pop up somewhere around there. They may also be targeting home and small business customers who don't have 50kW to spare. It's definitely an unfilled niche. On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: At 6500 dollars cheap? I don't know. It weighs 100 pounds and doesn't seem to be transportable. A PFC 75 is less money but might only eek out 12 to 15 or so KW but only weighs 33 pounds. Much more transportable and works with a J1772 plug. However the BMW is CCS. More confusion. If someone more versed could comment I'd like some other view on this technology which is about half as powerful as Chademo but seems to be twice as powerful as J1772 or am I not doing my math correctly? Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/82c79810/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- www.electric-lemon.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/ed5ff747/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Leaf Blower
Good Afternoon Steve This is Doc Kennedy, long time EAA member and lurker on the EVDL. I,m so glad you picked up on Bill Dube's E-Bike mod.I freaked out and bought the Lowes version of the Ryobi mower almost only to have the batteries and charger! I've been tinkering abd building with 2 wheel electrics for 20 years but now I need three wheels(disabiled). Standard trikes dont do it for me and and I can.t seem to get my aging brain around a simple, efficient two wheel front steering design.If any of your plans go in that direction please let me know, I'll be following your progress on the EVDL. Good Luck, Doc Kennedy E-Machines dockenn...@gmail.com 1 540 230 8881. On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Steve Clunn via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have the Ryobi Electric Leaf Blower and bought it along with a weed wacker, hedge trimmer and chainsaw that all use the same battery . To turn this around keep it on topic I was thinking when purchasing them that their 44V Lithium battery could be used for an electric bicycle. With all these tools that I got I have two batteries to work with. I wrote the company telling them what a great thing they had done because 1. the tools works really good and 2. this was a great opportunity for someone to come up with a lot of different things that could run off of these batteries. A portable battery charger for cars, a charger for a cell phones , a light , as a 120 AC inverter , electric bicycle Electric Boat with trolling motor the list went on I told them if they would send me a little attachment so I could attach things to their battery like the battery charge plug or weed wacker handle so I could plug in to the battery and get power easily to make these things work I would work on this for them. They were not interested , I will make my own when I get some time. The electric bike is my new dream. -- Steve Audrey Your Green Shed Team 772-971-0533 Merging the BEST of the PAST with the best of the FUTURE. Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/e4667147/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ... can [be a] ... fuel cell ... But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2. We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2 discussion. Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so. Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.) You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike newspapers and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far. There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one. Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one. Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv Please read point 2f. Thanks, David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lawn tractor conversion: lessons learned
Michael K Johnson via EV wrote: I got lots of useful help here on my lawn tractor conversion project — Glad we could be of help. Congratulations on getting the EV grin while mowing the lawn! :-) silly idea that I could fit everything under the existing hood and it would look the same, just be quieter. Yeah, the batteries certainly add bulk, and there's no place to put it. Skimp on the batteries, and they die young. I helped convert a Wheel Horse tractor. We first tried two 12v, because they fit under the hood. Mowing time was too short, and they only lasted one season. We crowded in three; that got the job done, but barely. Four would have been the charm. I'd seriously consider getting together with friends on a scavenged Volt battery... That could be fun as an experiment, but could cost more and require more finesse to get it all to work. Dumb old lead-acids are easier, and a reasonable first-EV solution. Installing muffin fans pulling cooling air through a reticulated foam filter (like they use for aquariums) to provide positive pressure cleaned air in a plenum around the motor was a good idea. The motor stays clean. Putting the motor in a pressurized box is an interesting solution. The foam filters apparently have a low enough pressure drop to work with propeller-type fans. The more common approach uses a squirrel-cage blower with a higher-drop filter element. Using plexiglass to make that plenum was a great idea. Is it real plexiglass (brittle acrylic), or the more common polycarbonate (slightly flexible, nearly unbreakable)? Polycarbonate is so strong that even 1/8 would be indestructible. Talking myself into doubling my 4awg welding cable for the equivalent cross sectional area of 1awg was almost certainly overkill. Well, it's a small matter. Your wire lengths are short, so not a lot of loss no matter how you do it. What ulitmately matters is that the wire doesn't get hot, and you've certainly achieved that. Hooking up my power switch so that the charging cable is connected in one direction, and the contactor in the other, means that I can't accidentally try to charge it and run it at the same time A good plan. Buying SB50 anderson connectors for charging at 48V 6A max was silly; But, they are very robust and will last. They can carry 6a even when dirty, worn, and corroded. Maybe you'll get a higher current charger someday. (Your AGMs might like higher-current charging anyway). I wanted to avoid a 12V house battery and run everything off of 48V 48v input to 12v output DC/DC converters are pretty common; the Telco industry used them in quantity. You can probably find one surplus for $10-$20 that can run fans, contactor coils, and your amphour meter. it was hard to source the muffin fans Another trick: Industrial EVs will wire lights, fans, etc. in series to allow use of 12v or 24v devices on 48v. and the contactor solenoid draws more power than it otherwise would. If that's a worry, 48v contactor coils are very common. The MTD transmatic belt-and-pully variable transmission isn't as bad as I thought (it's not hydrostatic and by most reports it's more efficient than a hydrostatic), but it's really imperative to get the MTD belts and not belts advertised as OEM replacement. On snowmobiles and other users of this variable-pulley-size method, they sometimes use metal belts (chains) with little friction pads on the sides. They are more efficient than the typical rubber v-belts. Maybe one is available for the size needed here? Having two of the batteries cantilevered over the front tires requires excessive tire pressure and makes steering a lot of work. The advice to instead mount them cantilevered off the back of the tractor was good; I didn't do it because it would get in the way of bagging. Maybe the bagger can be moved back a bit? Or add wheel weights, or a counterbalance weight somewhere behind the rear axle? My ElecTraks have half the batteries in front, and the other half under the seat. Steering is still heavier than a normal tractor, but not too bad. I definitely expect to have to sharpen the blades often; they will draw more current if they are dull. With EVs, an ammeter makes it easy to *tell* when it's using more power. With an ICE, there's no way to tell it's burning more gas. longer life. I have not yet built a snubber, though on an oscilloscope I measured a 1ms -100V pulse from the contactor solenoid. Basically, that means that I got a 1ms -100V pulse with a 10MOhm 15pF RC snubber. ☺ I finally got an assortment of rectifier diodes and high voltage polypropylene capacitors so I can cook up a RCD snubber to put on the contactor solenoid thanks to Lee's excellent page on the characteristics of various types of snubbers. Glad it helped! An oscilloscope is the perfect way to pick the snubber parts. You can easily see when you have good values. Add capacitance until the peak voltage is
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
Let me ask the question slightly differently. Would there be an advantage to EVDL members to include FCEV along with BEV discussions on the same list? Would this advantage outweight any disadvantages? In my opinion, the advantages are worth it. While current technology shows that batteries are a more efficient medium than hydrogen, I think it's worthwhile to keep informed about progress and new understandings. I, personally, would rather do this on one list (or forum, etc.) than multiple. On the other hand, if the bandwidth degenerates into feuds, we may have to go the route of EV racing discussions - banned. Peri -- Original Message -- From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 29-Jul-14 10:30:22 AM Subject: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ... can [be a] ... fuel cell ... But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2. We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2 discussion. Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so. Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.) You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike newspapers and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far. There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one. Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one. Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv Please read point 2f. Thanks, David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits
Mark, Please tell me where I claimed that? All I said was that the introduction of H2 will increase the overall CO2 production due to the added inefficiencies, besides it being an expensive and risky experiment - likely to waste many millions of taxpayer money in California alone, while the simple use of natural gas in vehicles will achieve a lower overall CO2 consumption and much lower risk and capital investment. Since you are bent on going the H2 route, there must be a reason that you are willing to fight this uphill battle, some interest that would not be served by the more logical choice for natural gas vehicles. If my drive to avoid wasting (my) taxpayer money on this experiment is questionable in your eyes, then I will just let that statement reflect on you without further comment. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 7:29 AM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits And BEVs are not zero emission vehicles either? You can not pick and take us into the weeds ( where I suspect your facts are as questionable as the rest of your higher level drivel), but BEVs are not zero emission from a GHG standpoint. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 28, 2014, at 11:41 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Because then Mark can't claim that he has zero-emissions vehicles, so he wants to convert to H2 (and lose a significant part of the energy) and that inefficient H2 will then qualify for the highest subsidies by California as zero emissions. All the while *increasing* the CO2 emissions, compared to using the natural gas directly in the vehicle (which would not fit the arbitrary requirement of zero emissions but which would bring the total system emissions down significantly - without excessive costs for a H2 infrastructure... *that* is what I hinted at earlier and that Mark does not want to hear... He even continues to claim that his solution is better, like a good lobbyist but without even hinting at *how* that solution is better. The only thing I have seen till now is the claim zero emissions. If you read the previous few sentences again, you'll understand what a canard that claim is in this respect. BTW, In most European countries it is normal to find Natural gas (called LPG) at most gas stations, as around 10% of all vehicles run on that fuel, mostly the highest-mileage vehicles as the fuel is very cheap but the installation in the car is taxed the highest (yearly tax) so you only come out ahead if you drive enough (say, more than 30,000 a year) while between 10-30k mi per year you would usually be better off with Diesel as fuel and below 10k mi per year the low vehicle tax and high fuel tax on regular gas (petrol) will make that the best option. This is for passenger vehicles - semi trucks always use Diesel. Since natural gas is not always available in all regions and countries, and because it is easy - often required - to run occasionally on regular gas to protect the engine, the installation is always dual-tank: a gas cylinder plus a liquid petrol tank. The gas cylinder typically holds LPG enough for about 200 miles range, sometimes less. That is another reason to have an additional petrol tank. If the gas cylinder holds 30 liters of liquefied gas and the price is around 0.50 Euros per liter, then this is indeed $20 for a fill up, but understand that this is maybe half or one third the price per mile of regular petrol. 100 Euro gives you approx a full 60-liter (15 gal) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
I think H2FC discussions are just fine. You all can write poetry about flowers and I might like to see that, too. I am just as interested in the people who like EVs as the biz of EVs. I go by subject line whether I read postings, and then author. If I look inside the posting and i don't find myself intrigued I delete it. I don't consider that a troubling act. There is no way all the messages can be exactly what I want so I am flexible. At this time I am only slightly interested in H2FCs. Less so than I am interested in EV stuff. I think H2 is not a great idea, but that is a bias I should be wary about. On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ... can [be a] ... fuel cell ... But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2. We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2 discussion. Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so. Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.) You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike newspapers and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far. There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one. Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one. Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv Please read point 2f. Thanks, David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/0968e1d8/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
Speaking as a newbie to the list (last November), I've been surprised by the levels of invective levelled at H2. There have been a lot of assumptions that it cannot possibly ever be efficiently produced without a bad carbon footprint, and lots (my perception) of ad hominem attacks. I'd like to think that if we can find ways to efficiently and cleanly produce new battery technologies, we could have our minds open to the possibility of clean H2 generation, separating the issue that in practice right now most H2 generation is very dirty from the question of different forms of chemically storing electrical energy in the long run. Change to allow H2 discussion, or continue to ban it, but the derogatory language about it gets tiresome and I'll bet it turns off more people than just me. When looking for problems to police, if you want to police H2 discussions, I would suggest to include in the policing derogatory comments about the technology and people as well as promotion and technical discussion thereof. Complaining only about the promotion and letting the derogatory comments slide is kind of a one-sided enforcement of the rules. My 2¢, do what you like, I'm hardly a major contributor here. ☺ On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ... can [be a] ... fuel cell ... But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2. We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2 discussion. Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so. Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.) You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike newspapers and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far. There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one. Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one. Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv Please read point 2f. Thanks, David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lawn tractor conversion: lessons learned
that's typical due to the permittivity of permanent magnets. I'm considering making a simple PWM motor controller for the fans since I think they are probably way overkill and I could reduce the 1.2A draw. But first I need the snubber to keep the power cleaner. One I have that, I have a HV buck converter to supply the control circuit, and it just takes a 555 timer, resistor, potentiometer, a few capacitors, a few diodes, and a MOSFET to reduce the power draw from the fans. But there's really no need. That would be just for fun. I have not built the battery balancers. The batteries are all within .02V of each other so far. The one balancer I built was a pain to build. I can't figure out how Lee manages to solder the diodes to the lugs without overheating the diodes. I had already ordered the parts from mouser before I saw that Lee was selling them, at which point I thought I'd just build them, and then I discovered what a pain that is and gave up after building one that I don't really trust because the zeners got so hot while I was soldering them into the lugs, despite my best efforts. So if my batteries start getting out of balance, I think I'll just cut my losses and buy a set from Lee who knows what he's doing. I'll just add the zeners etc. to my kit of random electronics parts and someday find a use for them. Oh, and it seems like everyone I talk to about my project exclaims about how cool it is that I can mow my lawn silently. Maybe they are remembering how a Leaf or Prius or (if they are lucky) a Tesla can sneak up on them. My motor running alone on the bench was uncomfortably loud and I wore ear plugs for comfort when I was breaking in the brushes while it was on the bench in the workshop. Before the conversion, the ICE was louder than the mower deck but the mower deck made the tractor much louder when it was engaged. Now, the mower deck is much louder than the motor. I still wear ear plugs while I mow the lawn. But still, with all the mistakes and downsides and things I'd do differently next time, I still get the EV grin while using it, which is impressive since I really really hate to mow the lawn. Making me happy while I mow the lawn is a definite accomplishment. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/9eddf2d6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
As an evdl member, my vote is continue with the existing limitation on OT
items specified in the evdl charter, so that they do not dominate the focus
of the evdl, ... EVs.
IMO: fcvs are not Electric Vehicles (EVs) that can plug into the stable
electrical grid or an outlet the homeowner has powered of their own
electrical power. fcvs are Electrified Vehicles (has some EV
components/guts) and are the same as a hybrid (chemical-fuel powered, and
can not plug-in)
Why my vote to not change the evdl? Because:
- As David reminded us, there are many non-EV discussion forums/groups/areas
to discuss those topics that are defined as OT on the evdl.
If you want to discuss Apple-products, the non-Apple forum is not the
place to do that.
If you like to use Kodachrome film, the digital camera forum is not the
place to do that.
If you like to express your lobbyist joy of the smell at the La Brea
tarpits.org , the cleanair.org forum is not the place to do that.
Topics defined as OT by the evdl charter should be, and can easily be
discussed on other forums/groups/areas on the Internet.
- It is the EV that needs the help/assistance, as there are billion$ of
dollar$ being spent to kill them. Not needing help are the well funded h2,
fcv, or hybrids. Those have plenty of money behind them, and plenty of
forums to discuss them. The public has been pre-programmed to be clueless as
to what to do when it comes to EVs (I have a future post about that where
ice-heads are lost when it comes to making an EV).
- An EV interested/curious newbie coming to the evdl and seeing tiresome
excessive heated non-EV focused discussions might think, the evdl is not the
place to be asking my EV-conversion questions. There are still many people
doing their own conversions (I have future news items I will be posting
showing that).
And on many of those I have read, the new EV owner saying, Yea, I got a
lot of help figuring out what to do by talking to the EV guys on the
Internet. Was that the evdl, possibly. Or maybe they came to the evdl
because the evdl is much easier to find, and learned of other
areas/local-groups/EV-component-sources to explore to accomplish their EV
goal (like the evdl is a well established EV-sign-post directing
EV-interest). We definitely do not want OT to dilute honest plugin EV
discussions, nor turn the potential EV builder away with disruptive,
counter-productive OT posts.
My first experience with Clyde's EV list was as a focus point for the
public to come and get the help they need to build an EV, because at that
time EVs were not produced, you either had to build your own, or have one
made by a converter (like I did). Remember there are many parts of the world
where building an EV as not off-the-shelf easy as it is in the U.S. If a
person wants to learn about EVs, the evdl has been the place for them to
come and discuss that for decades. Non-EV discussions dilute that EV-focus.
- Discussions of items defined as OT by the evdl charter which were decided
by previous evdl members, was done for some good reasons. Not only did the
OT discussions get 'tiresome', but nasty, which is another
turn-off/turn-away for people wanting EV help. evdl members decided to limit
'those' discussions by defining them as OT, and have them taken offline
quickly.
In its long history, the evdl has had many people come in and quickly want
to change a well established evdl. The last 'bout being about racing. While
small quick discussions are allowed, the heated, nasty, domination of the
evdl into the chaos of the past are not allowed. As there are plenty of
other places to discuss racing, the evdl limits racing discussions. Ergo, so
were other topics decided by evdl members as OT that need to be limited.
- The current evdl charter does not ban such OT discussions in passing, just
limit them to be taken off-line/elsewhere quickly. People do occasionally
drive too-close or over the white-line, but with a few honks from other
drivers know to stay in their lane. It is less about absolute-conformity (
nicht-EV verboten! ), but more about being focused with the EV-task at hand.
This flexibility allows for the occasional stray into OT land, but the known
evdl guidelines keeps most evdl discussions on-EV-topic, and not allowed to
disintegrate evdl discussions into a disruptive-troll's cesspool.
If you all will notice, the amount of h2/fcv discussions on the evdl has
exploded since the automakers have gone into production. I look at these
'forced' current h2 fcv discussions on the evdl, as an 'invasion of the body
snatchers'. That is, it is like the pro-h2 fcv guys want to take over and
dominate the evdl (here we go again!).
Anyone who has had pent up frustrations of not being able to discuss items
defined as OT on the evdl, should not take it out on other evdl member
because they either want take-over/destroy the evdl's EV-focus, or are too
lazy to go elsewhere.
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
Hello Zeke You must first make sure cells are well in balance by some sort of equalization procedure which involve shunting current from higher voltage cells to the others. Charger is cutoff when a cell reaches above a max set voltage, like 3,65V for example on my Ranger EV. Does your BMS monitor each cell individually? Is shunting capability installed? In operation, in my experience, if terminals on cells are not well tightened, voltage will fluctuate too low (current demand) or too high in regen. 380 Amps looks amazing high to me. I never go above 150Amps myself with my Ranger EV (104 x 100Ah cells LIFePO4 HighPower) or one of the cells reached below 2,6V. The problem is always worst when I skip equalization, which I have to do manually on my truck. I think what is needed is a monitoring of each cell for voltage, not on total Amps for the pack. To me this data is not relevant. As long as all cells stay above your set point, be it 2,9 or ??? it is fine, In my opinion Denis Le 2014-07-29 à 19:43, Zeke Yewdall via EV ev@lists.evdl.org a écrit : I am programming the BMS, and am wondering what opinions people have on the sepoints for the BMS, specifically for discharging. 24 CALB cells, 100AH, Alltrax 450 controller, DC6.7 motor, 1973 VW bug. Elithion Lithiumate Lite BMS. I did the first serious road test this morning, Default setttings were 100A continous, and 300A peak for the BMS to start regulating. 2.9 volt was the low voltage cutoff, with 2.5 volts being the drop dead voltage. It was doing pretty good for about 15 miles (60AH or so). It would cut out under hard acceleration (380 amps or so) and kill the power to the controller. Under sustained uphill (200 amps or so) it would also cut out after a while, and would also engage the throttle limiting to keep it to 100A or so. I would like to set it to 150A continuous, but not sure if this risks damaging the battery. It's going to live in a much flatter place than I was doing the test, so maybe 100A is okay. The big problems started about 18 miles in -- one battery started going under 2.9 volts under accelleration, and by 19 miles in, it was severely limiting current to keep it above 2.7 volts or so -- went to only about 30 amps, which was essentially undriveable. I either have one cell badly out of balance (what I'm hoping for), or that's only got about 70AH capacity instead of 100. If I can correct this one cell and bring it up to what all the others are doing, am I safe in raising the current limits a little, if I keep the voltage controls the same? Opinions? Thanks Zeke -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/06c8ee17/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lawn tractor conversion: lessons learned
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote: Michael K Johnson via EV wrote: I'd seriously consider getting together with friends on a scavenged Volt battery... That could be fun as an experiment, but could cost more and require more finesse to get it all to work. Dumb old lead-acids are easier, and a reasonable first-EV solution. Well, a few months after I bought my batteries, a friend bought a few scavenged volt batteries, and it literally would have cost me less than the $1K I paid for the SLAs to have more capacity with greater available discharge. So I'm not being crazy here. I would have needed a different charger for lithium, though. That's where the money would have gone. Putting the motor in a pressurized box is an interesting solution. The foam filters apparently have a low enough pressure drop to work with propeller-type fans. The more common approach uses a squirrel-cage blower with a higher-drop filter element. The plenum exhaust area is about 2x12 and the frame around it stays clean; it's clearly moving a lot of air. I do brush off the filter after each mowing session because it collects detritus around the intakes. I sized the frame just small enough for a good interference fit. Is it real plexiglass (brittle acrylic), or the more common polycarbonate (slightly flexible, nearly unbreakable)? Polycarbonate is so strong that even 1/8 would be indestructible. Acrylic. Polycarbonate is more expensive and really hard to work, as your point about the indestructibility of 1/8 stock attests to. If I had gone with 1/4 acrylic for the whole box, I could have used simple butt joints and screwed the pieces together and it would have been far less work. I did find out a couple weeks too late that I could have brought the acrylic to a friend and co-worker who would have cut it for me with his laser cutter. Maybe next winter... ☺ Well, it's a small matter. Your wire lengths are short, so not a lot of loss no matter how you do it. What ulitmately matters is that the wire doesn't get hot, and you've certainly achieved that. It's a small amount of extra money in the grand scheme of the conversion, and I don't really regret it. I'm merely recording for the next person that my impression was that it was overkill for the tractor. I don't think these batteries can source enough current to overheat 4awg; they start noticeably sagging around 140A-150A. Might be different with lithium. Buying SB50 anderson connectors for charging at 48V 6A max was silly; But, they are very robust and will last. They can carry 6a even when dirty, worn, and corroded. Maybe you'll get a higher current charger someday. (Your AGMs might like higher-current charging anyway). I cut the female end off a C15-C15 extension, and used the male C15 end of the cord for my charging circuit. I used liquid electrical tape (many layers) to cover the conductors coming out of the cut-off end of the cord, and keep the male end plugged into that cut-off plug to keep the male connector clean when I am not charging the traction batteries. But if I ever make one of the open source chargers that can dump more than 6A into the batteries, I'll keep the SB50s in mind, of course. $1200-1400 for the EMW kit is more than I want to spend on that right now. I'm still recovering from blowing the budget in the first place. 48v input to 12v output DC/DC converters are pretty common; the Telco industry used them in quantity. You can probably find one surplus for $10-$20 that can run fans, contactor coils, and your amphour meter. As it turns out, the old 12V battery is toast. But I have some SLA batteries that UPS units were complaining about but which have lots of life left in them and I'll use them for house. Even cheaper than buying an isolated converter. Of course I don't have a 12V charger handy, so I cobbled together the power supply from a dead laptop, a buck converter with a CV regulator, some wires scavenged from a dying coffee mater, and my meter to make sure I'm within spec, and voila, a charger! Someone else could use a converter to run fans and contactor coils, but since I have 48V fans and contactor coils, I'd have to replace them to switch, and that doesn't seem worthwhile. The 48V fans came out of telco gear where 48V is, as you point out, common. If that's a worry, 48v contactor coils are very common. That's what I have. I just seem to recall that the 48V contactor coils drew more current than the 12V in the same series (Alltrax). On snowmobiles and other users of this variable-pulley-size method, they sometimes use metal belts (chains) with little friction pads on the sides. They are more efficient than the typical rubber v-belts. Maybe one is available for the size needed here? I doubt it. This is a long belt and needs to flex and runs through frankly poorly-guided space. I'll stick with OEM and would suggest the same for anyone trying to convert similar tractors. With
[EVDL] article: The rise of electric cars in the US, in 6 charts
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/28/5944065/electric-cars-plug-in-vehicles-rising-sales-US -- *Paul Wujek* http://goo.gl/3jnMdX ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lawn tractor conversion: lessons learned
Thanks Michael for the very useful and thorough discussion. I hope to do an EV mower soon. Al - Original Message - From: Michael K Johnson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 10:59 PM Subject: [EVDL] Lawn tractor conversion: lessons learned I got lots of useful help here on my lawn tractor conversion project — http://www.evalbum.com/4841 — so I thought I'd post some lessons learned, both positive and negative. None of this is intended as advice for anyone else, for obvious reasons. I'm not doing everything as safely as I might! This is just the brain dump I wish someone else had written for me to read when I was getting started. Biting the bullet and buying real batteries (Deka Intimidator 9A31) was a good idea. Mowing my half-acre lot that's not much more than half lawn sometimes brings me close to 50% DoD, occasionally perhaps very slightly below. It took a bit of convincing myself to spend $1K on batteries—almost twice what I spent on the Motenergy ME1004 motor. Part of what got in the way of accepting that reality early on was a silly idea that I could fit everything under the existing hood and it would look the same, just be quieter. Things got a lot easier when I decided to ditch the hood and embrace as part of the conversion the fact that this was going to look way different when I was done. If I were starting over today, I'd seriously consider getting together with friends on breaking a scavenged Volt battery and doing a 2p15s or 3p15s arrangement (I don't recall the capacity of the volt cells). Scavenged Volt batteries seem to be going for around $2K so if enough people wanted to get together on it, this would have been an opportunity to get more capacity for less money. I hope that by the time my current batteries are going downhill, lithium cells are a dime a dozen. Installing muffin fans pulling cooling air through a reticulated foam filter (like they use for aquariums) to provide positive pressure cleaned air in a plenum around the motor was a good idea. The motor stays clean. I don't know if it matters for cooling, since I'm running the motor well under rated load. But cleaned air can't hurt brush life. I count that as worth the 1.2A continuous draw. Using plexiglass to make that plenum was a great idea. Using 1/8 plexiglas for the sides and 1/4 only for the top where the muffin fans were mounted was a false economy; if I were doing it again I would make the whole plenum out of the more expensive, but more robust and easier to work 1/4 plexiglass. Given the frame I had to build to support the 1/8 plexiglass, I think that it would have taken me less than half the time if I'd done it all in 1/4 plexiglass. However, using a sectional picture frame (the kind where you purchase two packages to make one frame, one package for each dimension) as the holder for the reticulated foam worked quite well. I'd do the same thing again even if I weren't so incredibly lucky as to find the frame packages on sale for 95% off... I used a combination of glue and brass screws to hold the plexiglass together; if I were doing it again I'd just use the brass screws. They look pretty cool in the plexiglass box if I do say so myself. Talking myself into doubling my 4awg welding cable for the equivalent cross sectional area of 1awg was almost certainly overkill. Joe Lorenzi has 8awg in his JD with the same motor, and he told me that it gets a little warm and thicker than 8awg would be useful, but I really don't think I need 1awg equivalent. Even immediately after mowing through thick grass with no breaks for nearly half an hour (down to 50%DoD) my cables are cold. If I were doing it over, I would just use the 4awg cable. Would be easier and use lighter, easier-to-manage lugs, and routing would be less of a challenge than it was. I bought both 400A and 200A fuses, not sure whether it would blow the 200A fuse. I needn't have worried. I do see over 100A continuous, but the 200A fuse hasn't blown. The batteries just can't push that much current through that motor... Hooking up my power switch so that the charging cable is connected in one direction, and the contactor in the other, means that I can't accidentally try to charge it and run it at the same time, and makes it less likely that I'll drive away and leave the charger connected. Buying SB50 anderson connectors for charging at 48V 6A max was silly; the charger came with C15 (just like in the back of your computer) which works fine. So I have some unused SB50 anderson connectors... I was originally going to connect both sides of the motor through an SB350 anderson connector for a disconnect. Instead, I put a single pole PP disconnect (using exactly the same internals as the SB350) inline next to the fuse as my emergency disconnect / safety maintenance disconnect. Requires only half the effort to pull it open in an emergency, and the loop of wire that doubles as the emergency
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
Definitely allow the pack to balance for awhile. Particularly fresh from the factory. Check them all with a voltmeter, not just with the BMS. You want to be sure that everything is connected right and is working 100% properly. Trust, but verify. Do this before and after the first few test runs. You should limit the first test runs to within a few blocks of your house. You can go around the same route numerous times, but you want to stay within walking distance. :-) You should set the cut-off at 2.5 volts. You can set the cut off lower, but if 2.5 works, that is a good place to leave it. These are Chinese cells, after all. The Chinese make pretty good stuff very very cheaply, but often the quality control is not tip top. I typically recommend purchasing a couple of spare cells. Bill D. On 7/29/2014 5:43 PM, Zeke Yewdall via EV wrote: I am programming the BMS, and am wondering what opinions people have on the sepoints for the BMS, specifically for discharging. 24 CALB cells, 100AH, Alltrax 450 controller, DC6.7 motor, 1973 VW bug. Elithion Lithiumate Lite BMS. I did the first serious road test this morning, Default setttings were 100A continous, and 300A peak for the BMS to start regulating. 2.9 volt was the low voltage cutoff, with 2.5 volts being the drop dead voltage. It was doing pretty good for about 15 miles (60AH or so). It would cut out under hard acceleration (380 amps or so) and kill the power to the controller. Under sustained uphill (200 amps or so) it would also cut out after a while, and would also engage the throttle limiting to keep it to 100A or so. I would like to set it to 150A continuous, but not sure if this risks damaging the battery. It's going to live in a much flatter place than I was doing the test, so maybe 100A is okay. The big problems started about 18 miles in -- one battery started going under 2.9 volts under accelleration, and by 19 miles in, it was severely limiting current to keep it above 2.7 volts or so -- went to only about 30 amps, which was essentially undriveable. I either have one cell badly out of balance (what I'm hoping for), or that's only got about 70AH capacity instead of 100. If I can correct this one cell and bring it up to what all the others are doing, am I safe in raising the current limits a little, if I keep the voltage controls the same? Opinions? Thanks Zeke -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140729/06c8ee17/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
Almost forgot. If you didn't lightly sand the cell terminals and coat with thin film of NoAlOx, then you need to do that now. Yes, doing this is a pain in the butt, especally after it is all put together, but it must be done to get good, low-resistance, reliable, connections on the cell terminals. (They are aluminum.) Otherwise, you get symptoms exactly as you have described. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
